Fellowship of the Ring discussion, chapters 1-3

Here we go again! Welcome to the second Hogwarts Express series discussion. We're starting on The Fellowship of the Ring this week, chapters 1-3:

1: A Long-Expected Party
2: The Shadow of the Past
3: Three is Company

If you have notes on the Prologue, you can post them here, as well.

For those of you who haven't participated in one of our group discussion threads before, it's pretty simple: we each read a few chapters of the selected book every week, then post comments and discuss what we all thought of the book. Feel free to jump in!

Prologue
1. I have always loved the intro poem about all the rings given to the races.

2. Right from the first Tolkien shows himself capable of wonderful descriptions. Hobbit life sounds great!

3. "They (hobbits) liked to have books filled with things that they already knew, set out fair and square with no contradictions." Hmm, often true of big folk too.

Ch 1
1. Not being of age until 33 sometimes seems a good idea. Though perhaps this works better when people live to be over 100.

2. What lovely, carefree people. I love that, to them, Gandalf is just good for a few party tricks.

3. A very few were overlooked by accident, but as they turned up all the same, that did not matter.
There is a line about this in the extended movie, and I always wished it were in the normal edition. It's just one line, and it is so great.

4. What sweet people to give presents on one's birthday rather than just get. Though, when my birthday came around, I would become poor!!

5. Surely Gandalf's type of fireworks can't be so hard -- why doesn't a firework company develop scented fireworks? ;)

6. "I don't know half of you half as well as I would like...."
This does work out to a compliment, right? It sounds like one to me, and so I love it for its complicated niceness.

7. ::sigh:: Relatives :/

I love the whole slow description of the Shire community. "Eleventy one" is great, very few other writers change the whole way numbers are represented - because it would be too confusing - but this is just the sort of shift that shows hobbits aren't just small humans, but a different way of looking at the world.

I like the way it is clearly a continuation of the Hobbit - but also clearly marked that the world has moved on since then, and getting grimmer.

(My review of the whole book is here)

Good point, r_f, that the two books blend well but this one is shifting towards a much darker road.

I've been known to say "eleventy one" any time the occasion warrents ... which isn't really very often. ;)

Here are my comments. I'm putting them in just as I wrote them down, so I apologize in advance for anything that is downright confusing.

Chapter 1:

1. The beginning has a really small-town feel to it

2. We picked the right time to read this with the Bagginses’ birthday’s coming up soon.

3. First reference to the old forest.

4. Hobbit family trees! And scandle!

5. Stories just seem to grow.

6. Bilbo was 111-60… 51 years old in The Hobbit.

7. Samwise loves his stories.

8. YAY PRESENTS!

9. They did the Gandalf cart scene very well in the movie.

10. Ignorance is bliss when it comes to Gandalf.

11. September 22 in a Monday this year :(.

12. Gandalf improves with age like a fine wine.

13. Bilbo retcons his birthday into The Hobbit.

14. I thought it was a great joke!

15. Somewhere like Rivendell perhaps? (Quiet place to write his book)

16. Frodo gets the Ring of his birthday. It’s his birthday present!

17. Look away Gandalf is about to expose himself!

18. He may not be a thief, but he is a burglar!

19. That’s right, Bilbo, take a vacation and leave all your problems behind!

20. We’re off on the road to lone mountain. We’re having the time of our lives!

21. I’d love to have the full list of presents with their snarky comments.

Chapter 2:

1. Poor Sam; he doesn’t get to meet an Ent.

2. “Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them. Then do not be too eager to deal out death and judgment, for even the very wise cannot see all ends.” Sounds like A Christmas Carol to me.

3. Sam is an abnormal Hobbit.

Ch. 1

1. Bilbo was at quite an age before he chose Frodo as his heir. It would have placed Frodo at 21 when Bilbo was 99.

2. It seems the book and movie established a little bit of different feelings from the party crowd from this quote: "I don't know half of you as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve" (29).

3. It's been three or four years since the only time I had read this series. I'm really glad that Frodo knew Bilbo would be leaving in the book, unlike in the movie. (Or was it that he didn't know Bilbo would be leaving quite so soon in the movie?)

4. I loved Bilbo's labeled gifts. We can guess he either thought Dora's advice wasn't any good or that she should start tossing it because it wasn't any longer. The gift to Hugo of a bookcase made me think of how some people would blush with embarrassment for not returning books, but I imagine Hugo didn't. ;) My favorite of the gifts was to Lobelia S-B of spoons! (Family joke. Spoons disappear like cookies amongst children.)

5. I think nothing establishes unwanted house guests as well as this chapter does with all the hobbits running around searching for things other than destined gifts to swipe or for the supposedly hidden gold, especially when it comes to the Sackville-Bagginses.

Ch. 2

1. Since that had been Biblo's second disappearance I wonder why some were quick to think he'd died versus just going away. It seemed ridiculous that Frodo should mourn death as thought by other hobbits rather than for the lack of companionship of his dear uncle.

2. Were either Sam or his father paid for gardening or was it something they only did because they greatly enjoyed it?

3. The name Deagol makes me think he and Smeagol were related. (Note other similar names in families, such as Drogo and Frodo.)

4. For some reason I actually liked the movie better at the end of this chapter in the scene when Gandalf is questioning Sam. (That "end of the world" bit, perhaps. ;)

Ch. 3

1. Why didn't Gandalf encourage Frodo to leave the Shire sooner than before his birthday?

2. I think Frodo may have only given Lobelia a set of keys at midday versus night to humor her and get her to leave. I laughed when he read he didn't offer her any tea.

SPOILER
3. It's only the beginning, and already Sam is eager to be so very helpful. He's a sweet friend. END spoiler

4. Perhaps its safe to assume Elves know something about near everything.

I love that the first chapter in The Hobbit is "An Unexpected Party" and here it is "A Long Expected Party."

2.1.1 Many people shouldn't be considered of age until 33, but a drinking age of 21 is so hard to enforce, 33 would be awful! I wonder if they card at The Green Dragon :)

2.1.4 Giving away presents on your birthday sounds great. I am finally at a point were I actually do enjoy giving more than receiving.

5.6 Yes, I believe Bilbo was considered settled down and middle aged at the age of 51 when he left with the dwarfs.

5.16 That is not a good omen!

5.17 I missed that part!

6.2 They really spread out a lot of Gandalf and Frodo's talk in the movies.

7.1.1 I think that is why the Sacksville-Baggins were so upset. They thought they were so close to Bilbo dying.

7.3.3 How old is Sam in relation to Frodo?

8 (compski) RE 7.3.3:
My copy of The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth says Frodo is twelve years older than Sam. (Frodo's DOB is 2968 and Sam's is 2980. What years, huh?)

Thanks, Kerian! Too bad we won't all be around in 960 years for Frodo's birthday.

Hubby & I are like 1/2 way through The Two Towers right now on a read-aloud reread, and I just don't think I feel like analyzing it all.

Enjoy, my wonderful people! Maybe some day I'll feel in the mood and add some comments.

#100 compski:
Too bad! We'll have to write letters to our future relatives about it in time capsules.

#11 LG:
Thanks, LG. I hope you and your hubby are enjoying Two Towers! :)

Chapter 1 notes:

1) As we were reading I said to Espy, "Hey! We're in our tweens!"
2) In this chapter, the title of King of Exposition goes to Gaffer Gamgee!
3) "Voluntary Assistant Postmen" -- only in The Shire.
4) I like the Hobbit system of gift giving.
5) Ooh, the description of that feast is making me hungry. Hey, don't we have a thread about that somewhere around here . . . ?
6) "I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." Favorite line in the chapter!
7) I love the description of Bilbo putting on the old traveling cloak. Can't really explain why -- just thinking of the memories it must bring back for him, I guess.
8) The scene of Bilbo leaving the ring is much better in the book than in the movie.
9) I like Merry better in the book than in the movie.

Chapter 2 notes:

1) Frodo felt that his approaching 50th birthday was "significant (or ominous)." Many people feel that way about turning fifty!
2) This chapter’s king of exposition: Gandalf the Grey.
3) Sauron is to Mirkwood as Voldemort is to Albania.
4) They took all of Gandalf’s really good lines from this chapter and scattered them throughout the entire trilogy of movies.
5) The ring is to Gandalf as the hallows are to Dumbledore.

Love the King of Exposition awards, foggi! Not to mention the relationship observations.

Discussions in the pub - the tree stiding across the moors. Is that foreshadowing the Ents? or the Old forest?

"And in the darkness bind them" really is a surprisingly nasty line. Captures the power of Sauron excellently.

#7 I'd always assumed that Gaffer and Sam were paid by the Baggins' for their gardening, but the economics of Middle Earth is never explicitly stated. Other than Smaug's pile and the Barrow there is no mention of coins or payment? But Saurman bought leaf, so their must be somesome form of it. The Baggins' were certainly much richer than many in Hobbiton, and Sam's attitude is always as of a servant.

#9 Years are Third Age. Which started with Isildur overcoming Sauron.

#7 "Why didn't Gandalf encourage Frodo to leave the Shire sooner than before his birthday"
Key point.

spoilers
It is explained later - Gandalf fails an appointment something never happened before - because he didn't yet know that it was serious, he thought Sauron was still developing his plans. The non-delivered letter at Bree is when Gandalf learns that Nazgul are about, and here he explicitly tells Frodo to leave at once. But Frodo doesn't recieve this. Anyone know when it was written?
end spoilers

#14 5) Very good analogy!

Chapter 1 notes:

...

gah! I can't take notes while i'm reading. This is why i don't usually participate in these things. Let's try this instead:

Chapter 1 reminisces and random page-flicking:

1) It's a good thing that I read The Hobbit in school. I might never have gotton into Tolkien if i had started LotR first. The first chapter is just too jolly-hockey-sticks Enid Blyton english for me. A jolly good feed and lashings of lemonade all round, chaps?

2) Some fun quotes though:

'Elves and Dragons! I says to him. Cabbages and potatoes are better for you and me.'

'Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what i mean; like butter that has been scraped over too much bread'.

3) You have to admire Gandalf for not trying to take the ring, or even forcing his will on Bilbo any more than was necessary. Imagine how that scene would have played out if Saruman had been there instead of Gandalf.

Chapter 2:

1) It's odd how hobbits seem to age slowly. It's almost dwarf-like. You would think that little people would age faster, if anything. Like shrews.

2) Ok, here is where i was hooked. Galdalf's story is riveting. Way to set up a saga. I love that Tolkien's elvish is both beautiful and internally consistent, as is the history. So evocative of mythology, yet creative.

3) Espy: I didn't know that was derived from A Christmas Carol - "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?' Its a great line.

4) Nice self-sacrifice by Frodo - leaving everything he knows just to keep the shire safe. I like that he has an ulterior motive as well.

5) The Shire as a metaphor for England, and Hobbits as characteristically English, really seems laid on thick here now.

6) "Don't let him turn me into anything... unnatural"
ewww, creepy.

Chapter 3:

1) Tsk! Leaving the washing up for Lobelia! Typical adolescent male hobbits.

2) The riders felt much more threatening in the movie.

3) 'Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting.' I name you Frodo Silvertongue.

4) Nice description of the constellations. No Skippy The Cowboy here. It makes me think of the constellations that LeGuin describes in Earthsea.

5) Convenient hall-like woods.

6) Why won't they tell Frodo that Bilbo is in Rivendell? trying to keep from Sauron finding out that a Baggins is there? But Rivendell is too strong for Sauron yet, and Frodo is already entrusted with bigger secrets.

7) 'Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.'
'Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.'
Talk not to the hobbits, for they are smart-alecs.

ETA to thwart italics-guy

OK, here goes... And just in case anything I say sounds ridiculous to those who know the story well, I've only seen the movies once and never read the books, so this is a very new adventure for me :)

Prologue -
"Mathom" - I've always wanted a single word for such things! Does anyone use it? If not, WHY not? How is it that words like "bootylicious" are in the dictionary (albeit as slang) and a word I've needed for twenty years has gotten the shaft?

"Bree, the Prancing Pony" - I don't even remember the context for this, but it instantly made me think of The Horse and His Boy.

Chapter 1:
The gifts - Like Espy, the list of gifts and snark could have gone on for several more pages before I would have tired of it. Loved that part!

Sam - Part of me wishes I hadn't seen the movies before reading the books, but as that can't be helped, I'm glad to know ahead of time how much I adore Sam so I pay him the proper attention as I read.

"Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." - This line was great :)

Like foggi, I drew a couple of HP parallels - glad to know it's ok to share them, haha...

1. Gandalf biding his time in telling Frodo the importance of the ring = DD "protecting" Harry by not telling him about the prophecy until he absolutely must

2. Gandalf being absent for so long discovering the truth about the ring = DD learning as much of the truth about the horcruxes as he could before involving Harry

3. Sackville-Bagginses = Dursleyish.

17.3.7 That explains a lot! Mr. Andrew is a Hobbit!

1. Gandalf biding his time in telling Frodo the importance of the ring = DD "protecting" Harry by not telling him about the prophecy until he absolutely must

I don't think Gandalf was hiding anything from Frodo by not telling him sooner. He just didn't want to say anything until he was sure, and he didn't know that Sauron had learned that the Ring had resurfaced, so he didn't realize the urgency.

*nod* I thought of that too; I guess I was thinking more from Frodo's POV - clearly, Gandalf had suspicions for a long time before they were confirmed, and Frodo seems to wish that the concerns had been addressed when Bilbo still possessed the ring, or that Gandalf would take it and do what needs to be done, relieving him of a task he doesn't feel up to. He has no interest in, nor belief that he's able to shoulder, the responsibility that's come down to him, which I think Harry felt in flashes throughout the HP series as well. In those times, there was resentment towards DD for not giving Harry all possible information so he could feel more amply armed, regardless of whether the information would have actually benefited Harry, or possibly harmed him.

Chapter 2 notes
1. I love the argument over the walking elm tree. Every line is hilarious.

2. I completely agree with Sam about the elves. I've always loved Tolkien's elves.

3. Hobbits can be soft as butter or tough as old tree roots. I love this line!

4. "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." As people, we spend so much time wishing things were different. How much more we could do if we would just use our time instead of thinking of how to use it!

5. I wonder whether murder was really considered as an option for Deagol. I'm sure murder was nearly unheard of. Did everyone just think he disappeared? From the narrative, it doesn't seem like Smeagol was ever accused of murder.

6. Bilbo was the only one to give up the ring rather than be left by the ring. What strength of character! And after giving up the ring, Bilbo acts as happy-go-lucky as though its weight had never rested on him. Hobbits are wonderful.

7. Pity tends to have such negative connotations, but it is so important here and put in a positive light. It is compared to mercy, but pity seems to take the dominant position. Personally, I would be more likely to show mercy than pity. Though perhaps in Gollum, pity is as far as one can go.

8. I find it interesting that Frodo completely shuns the idea of pitying Gollum. When Gandolf is talking about Gollum's story, Frodo can find no pity (and I don't blame him).

SPOILER
And yet, as soon as Frodo meets Gollum, he does indeed feel pity for him. How hard hearts can be before there is understanding.
END SPOILER

9. Gandolf tells Frodo he wasn't chosen for any merit he possesses, particularly not on power or wisdom. Way to make Frodo feel capable!

I must say, I really like this slower discussion pace.

i... have... to... agree... with... you...

...

...

lefty.

btw, forgot to say before. Kerian, good point about deagol/smeagol frodo/drogo. I had just assumed that smeangol/deagol was childlike rhyming.

Thank you, MrA.

This is a wonderful excuse to revisit an old, dear friend rather than starting something new. Thank you!

I remember when I first read LotR I noticed that the elves were very different from those I remembered from The Hobbit. In The Hobbit they were just another species of characters; in LotR I see them as more elevated, particularly the High Elves, who are almost angelic.

JRRT seems to like to give us a break from the gloom and doom, at least while we're still in the Shire. The last word of the second chapter, which introduces the ring's dark history, is "Hurray!"

Yes, yes, yes, to everyone who wants a longer list of Bilbo's gifts and notes!

K, I've often wondered whether Smeagol and Deagol were related as well. Perhaps cousins, at least. But you would think Tolkien would have mentioned such a detail. Or maybe he thought it obvious.

7.2.4 I love Sam's line in the movie too!

#8, Compski, I never noticed the chapter titles that way, but you're right. And it's great!

13.7 Foggi, I love the traveling cloak too. The way it was described it certainly made me remember the adventures of The Hobbit; I'm sure Bilbo was remembering the same thing.

Time to run (literally)!

#25 they are different elves. The Hobbit's are wood elves descended from a different family. I think most of the details are in the appendix or else I'm sure they are in the Silmarillion but it's a bit tricky to deconvolute it all. That there is such a detailed backstory is one of the things that makes LoTR unmatched by any other work.

#26 Smeagol and Deagol are related and it is mentioned. I think at Rivendale when the full history of the ring is recited, and again in the Appendix.

Thanks, r_f. I thought it was mentioned somewhere.

14.4 Yes, definitely. All Gandalf's good lines in the movie come from right here.

16: "And in the darkness bind them" really is a surprisingly nasty line. Captures the power of Sauron excellently. Indeed, which is why I love it.

17, MrA, I love that your chapter notes are an ellipsis. ;) Good notes though, for not taking any!

I'm glad you're reading with us, laia! We should bring "mathom" into full usage. Is it in the word of the week thread yet?

#20 jj, I think you have it right -- Gandalf didn't want to spread speculation, he waited to say anything until he was sure.

Luckily Gandalf didn't say anything to anyone until he was sure, otherwise Sarumon would have known much sooner.

Espy finally rescued my Chapter 3 notes from his laptop, so here they are:

1) From the very start, Frodo does not believe he will ever return to the Shire. I think this is a big difference from the movies -- there's a poignant scene in the RotK movie when (SPOILERS!) Sam and Frodo realize that they don't have enough food to make the journey out of Mordor. I think it would have been less touching in the movie if, as in the books, Frodo didn't expect ever to get to come home at the end. (End spoiler.) Not criticizing one or the other -- just noting a difference.

2) I'm kind of sad that they're leaving Bag End. Don't sell it to the Sackville-Bagginses, Frodo, sell it to me! I want to live there!

3) The descriptions of the difficulties of their journey, even before the Black Riders started showing up, struck home with me. This is often how I feel about hiking and camping trips: They seem like a good idea in the planning stages but are always more inconvenient than I remember in the execution.

4) This chapter's King of Exposition: Gildor Inglorion! He gets bonus points for talking a lot while not actually giving out much actual information. ;-)

I never did get around to posting chapter 3 notes. And I don't even have a good excuse, like my notes needing to be rescued.

1. "Bilbo went to find treasure ... I go to lose one." From Frodo. I love this line.

2. Hahaha, they left the dirty dishes. The S-Bs deserve it.

3. "I don't keep water in my pockets!" My brother is in Madagascar right now, and he told us that the really funny jokes there are largely based on the idea of carrying water in a wicker basket. This line made me think of that.

4. I just love the traveling poem.

5. The song Pip sings in the third movie is right here! I never noticed before.