Armor?

In the spirit and style of some recent threads. Is Armor worth reading?

It was mentioned at the end of the much off-topic Dune thread, as an essential of the SG genre. I've never heard of it before and it's got very mixed reviews here on LT. Is it really comparible to Dune or Foundation as a key classic of the genre?

I liked Armor and would say it's an ok read. I wouldn't class it on the same level as Dune or Foundation by any means.

Those that are enthusiastic about Mill SF without qualification will love it. Others will find it a minor reading experience. The battle scenes are well done, but the novel is structurally a mess. I also don't find the character motivations or even the basic premise Steakley wishes to convey, very convincing.
So, despite the enthusiasm of Mil Sf readers, for everyone else, the answer to your first quest question is no, not especially. It's the kind of novel you read to see what all the hubbub is about. It was a disappointment for me.

I must admit I was somewhat boggled to see it mentioned alongside Dune...

I mentioned it, because it is one of the most frequently praised SF novels on all the SFF forums that I've ever been on.

What sort of forums have you been hanging round on? NRA and SF? Spacegirls with Guns? Kill all aliens?

Oh, wait --

Asimov's...

Well, at least on those boards they don't talk, almost exclusively, about how Kevin Anderson and Timothy Zahn suck, all day long, for weeks and months at a time. ;)

So, not much critical thought there then? :-)

"So and so sucks" ? -there's plenty of that high content level of "critical thought" on all of them.
I think they might have a bit more variety in any discussion as to who "sucks", though. There's something to be said for variety.

I tried the Asimov's forum for a bit, but it was full of right-wing nutters spouting crap, so I gave up.

But the topic was not about online forums, it was about Armor. Once again, you're trying to direct the conversation by sneering. It's not like I gave the thing a glowing review above. It's a fact that it lists high on any number of SF All Time Great Lists that you might see online. That's why it's been mentioned.
Did you read the novel?
Have any thoughts about the novel other than "Ugh, what sort of people would read that thing?".

See, that's the problem with you, Sales, you never see the entertainment value of rightwing nutters talking crap. I'd pop a bowl of popcorn, crack a beer and scroll through that shit, laughing my head off.

When I'm in the right mood, it's better than the fucking Marx Brothers.

Arthur, I hope this forum does more than just bash Anderson and Zahn--personally I like the mix of views AND the humour employed when we engage with each other.

At least it's a big improvement on Patrick and Theresa Neilson Hayden's "Making Light" forum, which seems to be circle jerk made up of...jerks. Those people amuse me not at all, the intellectual equivalent of swapping recipes in an old folks' home.

But I admit I'm a jaded bastard...

I'm not redirecting the conversation - I just cracked a joke about the sort of forums that would hold up Armor as being as good as Dune. And yes, I have read Armor. It was... ordinary. You opened the door by commenting that fans of military sf would love it, and then moaning that we here keep going on about Kevin J Anderson being crap.

Oh, and Asimov's is full of right-wing nutjobs.

"Once again", you're moaning about something someone didn't say.

I have read Armor, The Forever War, and Aggressor Six, which are my husband's three favorite books. While I see merits in all three, I agree with arthurfrayn that Armor is not mind-boggling and groundbreaking for those not already interested in military SF. I like Aggressor Six better than Armor.

The Forever War, however, is to me groundbreaking and amazing and I don't think you have to LOVE military SF to get something out of it. It's only mildly dated (it's written to be in the future, and takes place in 1998 or so, but thankfully the date is only mentioned once or twice in passing).

For military SF enthusiasts, "The Lost Fleet" series by Jack Campbell (pseud. for John G. Hemry is quite good. It really makes an effort to have realistic space battles within the limits of physics. My husband has read and enjoyed the first four, and one of our book groups enjoyed the first even though military SF is not the usual reading material for the group.

14>"Once again", you're moaning about something someone didn't say.

There's no "once again" for me here; I rarely participate in discussions anymore because I don't fucking care about whether Kevin Anderson or Timothy Zahn "suck", the place where all discussions ineluctably end up.
I can take a nap in bed, I don't need to fall asleep in front of my computer.

The double quotes were intended to be ironic. And it happens to be daylight here in the UK.

Arthur: are you in a cranky mood this morning?

"The place where all discussions ineluctably end up?"

Do you really think that's the case, my friend? Are we really that one-dimensional in your view? No question, we've unloaded on those pricks quite a bit (deservedly so, in my view) but there are so many threads in this group, a real diversity of views.

I'm one of the worst offenders, I admit, but I think there are quite a number of cases where the names of __________ and _____________ never come up...

"The double quotes were intended to be ironic. And it happens to be daylight here in the UK."

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...

well, Cliff as a reader of this forum, Arthur does have a point. Especially lately, there are 2-3 authors that get lambasted quite frequently along with any Dune not written by Daddy-o.

As far as Armor goes I absolutely loved it and it inspired more reading into Sci-Fi. However I read it back in High School so if I read it again today it could be a very different experience. I still haven't read Starship Troopers so don't know how they compare, other than fighting large bugs.

Message received.

To me, the problem with much of the SF readership (not speaking of anyone in particular here, let me be clear on that point) is a dearth of critical thinking. Too many fans and not enough analysis. And when a favorite author is skewered, people tend to react aggressively, launching ad hominem attacks, taking a comment or review personally rather than countering them with reasoned rebuttals.

Everyone has a right to read and like whatever author they wish and is certainly welcome to put forward their views...as long as they don't expect everyone to fall in line, bobbing their heads in eager agreement.

Conversations do go off topic, here...and in the real world. Personally, I've found these tangents interesting and they often lead to threads of their own.

But here I'll defer to my fellow members: I'll step back from the group, remove myself from its rolls and let you get on with things.

It's been fun but maybe time to move on.

Keep reading, that's the main thing. There are a lot of fine authors out there, to discover...and cherish.

"... along with any Dune not written by Daddy-o."

Did you consider the fact that, well, they deserve it?

Whilst I admit that Cliff and Ian do pick on KJA mercilessly (although it isn't helped as arthurfrayn did bring him up in this thread first). Personally I don't mind - however it can get too repetitive, the first half-dozen lambastings should be enough. But there is also a deeper point here.

I have never seen Steakley even mentioned on the SF fora I read (mainly IZ, BSFA and tor). Now that may be because the type of fiction they are interested in skews away from mil-SF. However I haven't seen any mention of it on the blogs I read either. But Armor is a fairly old book (20 odd years) so I wouldn't expect it to be discussed much. I would certainly be surprised to see it on a lot of people's favourites lists - well maybe not at Baen's forum. Certainly at the time it didn't raise many ripples this side of the Atlantic (I can't remember any reviews) or I guess amongst the general SF audience despite some vocal proponents amongst the mil-SF fans.

Finally I think that, as with reviews, that you have to take into account the likes and dislikes of the person to know whether their opinion is worth having. I (like Ian and Cliff) am not a fan of pure Mil-SF. We are probably unlikely to find Armor (or any pure mil-sf) more than competent at best because of that. For a fan of Mil-SF then it could well be a top 10 book (but conversely they are likely to view Bold As Love - now available for free download from the author's website - as boring crap). So apart from a minor spat by how regularly KJA is mentioned (which seems to be, in this case, partly a misreading of tone) we all seem to be pretty much agreed.

21 > Cliff, I didn't mean it to be a statement to chase you off, merely that Arthur's claim of Author bashing was legitimate.

22 > well considering that I still have yet to read ANY of the Dune I can't agree or disagree with that statement. However I don't feel it is necessary to point out every single time one is mentioned what 'crap' they are.

23 > I am sure that part of the problem with Steakley is he has what? 2 books out over 20 some years and the one on Vampires is pretty bad. So he is much easier to miss.

I have to admit that I have never found any of the Sci-Fi armor stories as good as Keith Laumer's Bolo fighting machine stories in Rogue Bolo and other collections. My favorite is 'Field Test' from Bolo: The Annals of the Dinochrome Brigade.

Robert A. Mosher

#25

Well Armor is a very different kind of book from the Bolo stories. Bolos are large automous tanks with no human crew and Armor is about a soldier and his powersuit (similar to the ones in Starship Troopers).

I have a couple of the Bolo books and enjoyed them. I also enjoyed Armor. I have read some David Drake, but not much of his Hammer's Slammers books. I do like Mil-SF, but not the mech or mecha ones. Fifty foot tall robots with human operators just seem really silly to me, especially after seeing the film 'Robot Jox' with Gary Graham.

First part of the book was very good, middle was odd and a little confusing. End was good.

Overall - I am glad I read it, but wasn't blown away.

I also think the age and where a reader is emotionally plays a part in how well the book is received.

My husband (who is a critical thinker) loves the book. He loves it because Armor was the first book he read that had cussing. He was about 10 at the time.
That made a big impression.

I didn't enjoy Armor because the second half is written in first person. I hate the feeling of someone talking to me. (I know, I know, Run from the crazy lady and don't make eye contact!!)

One of the strangest books I ever read was completely narrated by an omnipotent narrator in second person. Not an SF book, but still,a war book: Beach Red.

Armor sat on my TBR bookshelf for about 15 years before I got rid of it. I tried it several times and always bounced in the first 60 pages. I like some milsf (Early Honor Harrington, Moon) but am not a huge fan. I just could never get into the STORY.