The Irony Department

I'll bite: how is this relevant to 'What Are You Reading Now?' and what exactly is the example of irony?

Unprecedented. And it's not exactly surprising that the first things some established review writers do when they get here is add reviews to the books in their LT catalogue. Some people seem to prefer using LT as a reviews site rather than a catalogue of the books they own. To each their own.

I see nothing of interest to me in your blog. What's the point you are trying to make?

Ah, there, BoPeep at message 2.

I just fed my irony Jones and am happy to share the dose with you. This is by Thomas Beer in Mauve Decade. He is discussing the rise of steamy hyper-religiosity in the late nineteenth century:

"As the class to which William and Henry James belonged by birth sank from importance in the United States through its lack of courage, there was an alteration toward the religious standards of the other James brothers, Jesse and Frank, who intermittently attended church in Missouri between spells of brigandage and were accounted good Christians by their neighbours."

I also noticed some interesting irony... I was trying to figure out what this is about, so I looked at the thread that MrKris referenced in his blog. In it, he asked someone a direct question that they didn't answer immediately, so he posted a couple more times asking this person to answer his question. In Message 4 here, BoPeep asked MrKris what point he was trying to make, and even though he posted twice more in this thread, he just ignored that question.

I don't know how Fogies can be guilty of obfuscation when the point of the thread is already completely obscure :)

I agree. I also don't see the irony in three reviews being posted on the same day. And I also don't see the connection to the eschatology topic. Maybe MrKris "point" is that we read his blog and the eschatology discussion... :-)

So now that`s all sorted, let`s talk about irony. The impression I have is that a lot of people use the words `irony` and `sarcasm` without actually knowing what they mean.

A favourite example of mine was a letter received by a former employer of mine, which contained the choice phrase "I had just taken the car off my drive when a policeman walked ironically down the road". We always wondered how he did that.

I for one would love a clear and concise example and definition of each of these. I think there is a lot of both floating around my house, but having looked them up in numerous dictionaries and explained them to my sons, still they elude me when asked point blank. I always feel on shaky ground when defining them.

Isn't irony only for hipsters that wear trucker's hats and drink Pabst Blue Ribbon?

Btw, the song that was popular in the late 90's, 'Isn't it Ironic?' is another example of a bunch of things that are not ironic but merely coincidences.

Is it ironic that this thread began mis-categorized and mis-titled and yet turned into an actual thread about irony?

Message 14: Fogies wouldn't object to calling it ironic if it just happened to work out that way, but it didn't. It was started by a troll, who ran away when Little Bo Peep turned into Billy Goat Gruff (Nanny Goat?). Here's to ya, Bo (and Nick, who picked up the loose end).

I thought the irony was the fact that there were 2 reviews on 1984 posted on the same day by newbies ( 3 altogether --unprecedented, apparently) while most or many others who have been on LT much longer have no reviews at all.

Was I wrong?
What was it, then?

How did we get to 16 messages without any touchstones? Is this ironic?

Message 16: But that's not ironic... at all. At best it's a coincidence, and at worst, it's meaningless. Irony has an actual definition, and that isn't it. Have we gone over this or not?

Beastie: it's not an irony, it's a troll-irony. The relation is the same as that between beer and near-beer.

Alright, is irony the fact that a urologist in our town is named Dr. Fawcett?

Isn't it a nationality thing i.e. some countries have more sense of the ironical than others? In the same way that senses of humour vary from one country to another, except for someone slipping on a banana skin making people laugh is said to be universal.

raisincain - #14 - you`ve spotted my cunning plan.

MrsLee-

Let the Fogies see if we can give a full but concise definition of "irony." It may take more than one message.

First, many agree that to ask what a word means leads only to endless futile quibbling. A related line of inquiry that can yield useful results is to ask how the word is used. That can be split into how it has been used, on which lexicographers base their definitions, and how it might be used, which varies from person to person. The Fogies like to distinguish ways they use a word from usages they would avoid, and to split the latter into usages they accept from others and those they flatly reject. A classic example of the last is Humpty Dumpty's use of "glory" to mean "a nice knock-down argument."

What Fogies call "irony proper" is a quality of a human situation as perceived by other humans. When the heroine is about to open a door behind which we--but not she--know the monster is lurking, that is irony. Irony is not inherent in a situation. Like poignance or risibility, irony is present only when felt by an observer. Simple ignorance is not enough for irony; to feel irony an observer must perceive the situation as part of the working-out of a story line, and must believe that the agonist's ignorance will have consequences for the outcome of the story. That use of "irony" is often specified as "dramatic irony."

Irony usually intensifies the dramatic interest of a story. In presenting ourselves to each other, humans often present a story line as an explanatory context for their behavior; we see the words "framing" and "spin" used to refer to this process. The injection of irony into that story as a narrative device is the second use of "irony" that the Fogies themselves employ: the ironic use of language. That often, but not always, consists of using words at other than their face value. That use of "irony" could also be called "insincerity." But the mere use of words in this manner is not enough to qualify as irony. When, giving a cooky to a child, we say, "There you are," we don't mean "I have determined your location," and that divorce of surface meaning from idiomatic usage does not qualify as irony.

If you would like the Fogies to go on about usages of "irony" they would avoid, just say so. But in the meanwhile to address the other word in your first query, Fogies use "sarcasm" to mean "the use of language to insult or hurt feelings" regardless of what rhetorical devices it employs, which may or may not include irony.

(edited for punctuation)

Message 20: The Fogies would not call that "irony." It is "an amusing coincidence." But we recognize that many people do use the word irony in that sense, and consider it futile to object.

Jack Nicholson said:-

“My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch”

hazelk: What lovely logical convolutions in that epigram! It's the very fact that she didn't see the irony that makes it ironic. Catnip for the mind!

I don't know if this is an actual definition, but I remember a line in a movie once saying that irony is when the literal and the figurative meaning are exactly opposite. I've always used that as a guide.

Thank you raisincain! It's from "Reality Bites" and I've tried to remember how exactly the definition Ethan Hawke's character used went. I didn't want to re-watch the movie just to write it here... :-)

Raisincain - I'd be wary of that, as it could be more accurately applied to sarcasm on many occasions. "Oh, mother-in-law, how lovely to see you" (implied:go away you old ratbag) would be sarcasm but not really irony, even though the intention is exactly opposite to the stated meaning.

'A gap or incongruity between what is said and what is understood' is a reasonable definition of how irony works in practice, but I'd say the 'incongruity' has to be strong for it to be considered truly ironic by most English speakers. Going back to Alanis Morissette, you can make her song genuinely ironic by adding some lines. Wikipedia: An analysis of the ironic lack of irony in "Ironic" by Irish comedian Ed Byrne includes:
"There's nothing ironic about being stuck in a traffic jam when you're late for something. Unless you're a town planner. If you were a town planner and you were on your way to a seminar of town planners at which you were giving a talk on how you solved the problem of traffic congestion in your area, couldn't get to it because you were stuck in a traffic jam, that'd be well ironic."
"Rain on your wedding day is ironic only if marrying a weatherman and he set the date."
"A no-smoking sign on your cigarette break, that's inconsiderate office management. A no-smoking sign in a cigarette factory - irony."
Mo Rocca: "Irony is the disparity between what you expect will happen, and what does happen. So raining on your wedding day isn't ironic, it's just crappy. It would have been ironic if she had lived in a place like Seattle, and traveled to the desert of Mexico for a wedding and it ended up raining there, but not in Seattle. Alanis always gets the last laugh though. We all sit here, saying her song isn't ironic, but in fact, that's pretty ironic that she wrote a song called 'Ironic' that wasn't really ironic. Those Canadians are pretty crafty."
(Lots of people have come independently to the same qualifying conclusions about this one, as Usenet archives show.)

Oh please, give it a rest. If you have something to say say it where your target audience are listening or don't bother saying it. It's quite rude to say (effectively) "I want to tell you something but I'm not going to tell you unless you go somewhere else to listen". At the very least provide a link to the reference you have in mind.

There is a link.. it's over to the right in blue letters.

Ok so I think I get it. Is it ironic that I spend more time reading and posting about books at LibraryThing than I do actually reading books?

There`s a certain rich humour to this whole thread, but I`m not sure if it`s ironic.

Wouldn't I have to think it's ironic that you spend more time reading and posting about books at libraryThing than you do acctually reading books?

I don't know. I defer to the irony department. If something is ironic in the woods and no one is there to think it's ironic, is it ironic?

Hey, are you being sarcastic?

Sorry guys, I can't compete with your humor, I really am trying to figure this out. My idea of irony is along the lines listed in BoPeeps message #29 and raisincain #27, also that irony isn't intended to be wounding like sarcasm, irony just is.
Fogies #23: The part about your definition that threw me is the woman opening the door with the monster behind it. That seems just scary, even if I know about it. For instance, you know in all the suspense/horror movies, no one should ever go up the stairs alone. It's really stupid to do so and they deserve what they get. But that never struck me as irony. Did I misunderstand you?
It also seems to me that Jack Nicholson exudes irony from his pores. Sarcasm too.

MrsLee - it could be ironic if she decided not to open the previous door for some minor reason (it 'looks too scary', maybe) and then blithely threw open the next one to reveal the huge monster... Horror films can be full of irony but you do need the full set-up to see it, sometimes.

#37 - Just so long as he`s not indulging in obfuscation.

Mrs Lee # 38

I think this is how it works.

Say two people work together and one is promoted. In his new position he rebukes his former sidekick for a minor infringement. She responds with the comment "Of course, you`ve never bent the rules yourself". That would be sarcasm, as clearly she is effectively saying "You`ve done similar things yourself". Sarcasm largely revolves around saying one thing but meaning the opposite, and to my mind, it has to have a point, a target if you like. Normally, it has an element of either cruelty or defensiveness. It is more or less a mandatory mode of expression for anyone between the ages of 17 - 18.

Thr irony is in the situation itself - poacher confronted by poacher turned gamekeeper.

I wasn`t too convinced about the monster behind the door. However, if we`re in horror fim mode, had Dracula assured Jonathan Harker "You`re perfectly safe here.", that would be irony. Although he`s saying the opposite of what he means, he is not doing so to make a point, he doesn`t intend Harker to understand the comment, he`s effectively `playing to the gallery`.

One of my favourite scenes in a film is in Men of Respect, a gangster film with supernatural overtones based on the Macbeth story. In it, John Turturro`s character Mikey Battalia (Macbeth) pays a fortune teller generously to tell his fortune. Her husband comments "This is good. A man who is prepared to pay a high price can get everything he wants." I assume this is irony - Battalia takes the statement at face value, but of course he does not know he is to pay a very high price indeed.

I like that scene, though. There are of course many people prepared to pay a high price to get what they want. It`s quite good fun sometimes to see how that works out for them.

All these views of irony can be accommodated by recourse to Berkeley's maneuver, in which it is claimed that God perceives irony, so it must be everywhere all the time. A similar claim could be made for God's use of sarcasm. Much empirical evidence can support such claims.

I think the important distinction is that irony happens and you make sarcasm happen.

Marvelous thread, all.

But I think that someone here is perhaps suffering from irony-poor blood.

#41 Fogies - Your message - the latest in a series of excellent observations - invites so many questions it`s hard to know where to start. I was a tempted to pose a series of deliberately provocative questions (why only one God ? Which is it ? Has it ever spoken to you in a sarcastic fashion ?), and come back in a week to see if people had stopped fighting yet. Fortunately, my better nature prevailed and I shan`t even mention it.

#43 Hi, Bob

Nick at 44

George Berkeley's entry in Wikipeda might answer many of those questions you good-naturedly forbore (Gott sei dank!) to ask:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Berkeley

Thank you for that link Fogies...very interesting, but sometimes philosophy makes me feel so dumb. All this talk about whether things happen if we are not there to experience them seems silly to me. Guess I have a simple and practical mind that doesn't want to think too much. I know certain things, such as the way TV's work and radios, telephones, etc. But inside there is a part of me which says, umhm, it's really just magic. I don't like to ponder the universe's size either. Gives me the willies.
Thank you one and all for the great comments on irony. Much better subject than ironing. Question, does anyone giggle over irony, or is it more of an uncomfortable thing? Or is it both? I think on the Humor group thread, someone said things get funnier the more distance you have on them. Perhaps it is the same with irony and sarcasm.

44: It's definitely not irony to mention bunch of things and then say you shan't mention them. That's passive-aggressive.

Reading message 47, the Fogies felt a great disturbance in the force from the spirit of Ogden Nash, who whispered to us:

Here is a verse about rabbits
That doesn't mention their habits

As the force-vortex drifted away we dimly heard bits of monologue that sounded like "irony-passive-shan't-humor-aggressive-schlemiehl." We are relieved to report that it must have been a hallucination, since we doubt Ogden Nash knew the word "schlemiehl."

I've been catching up on my groups this evening and, after reading this fine thread, happened to look through the "What Ray Bradbury thinks about burning Harry Potter books" thread in the Hogwarts Express group. They point, through a link, at the article in Forbes.com which discusses the recent burnings of HP books (the burning were due to the belief that the novels promote witchcraft). Regardless of how you feel about Harry Potter, the article offers a rather satisfying example of irony:

"In some cases, though, the books weren't actually burned. In two towns, Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and Lewiston, Maine, local fire stations denied book-burning permits. One pastor, Douglas Taylor of the Jesus Party in Lewiston, undeterred, slashed and destroyed 12 Potter books instead.

"'The city warned me they would intervene if I burned the Potter books,' says Taylor, who held the cuttings in 2001 and 2002, 'because of the toxic emissions used by the ink.' Taylor points out that he only burns books he purchases."

I wonder how much he's contributed to JK Rowling's income. :)

Netiquette breaches are considered abuse in the online world. If you are in doubt as to why some messages have been flagged, consider reading up on netiquette and rereading a message in context of the discussion rather than with your own agenda in mind.

#47

Possibly we`re in some Anglo/US communication breakdown here.

I presume you don`t seriously believe it was passive-aggressive, so I`ll just assume the joke was lost on it`s way to the US.

Though it looks like Fogies got it.

I stopped reading about twenty messages ago....
To those of you who haven't bothered, go and look up the words in a dictionary. And for the pointlessness of this topic I am now slamming the door in disgust! BANG

So someone`s joined the discussion to tell us they don`t want to join the discussion ?

I thought the whole point was, as Mrs Lee and Fogies pointed out, the dictionary was no help.

Joking aside, I think Library Thing contains the seeds of it`s own destruction, some of whom can be found on this thread.

I never use the phrase `get a life` but if I did.........

#47, and I quote'Possibly we`re in some Anglo/US communication breakdown here'.

Yes, nick, quite agree. Slightly off-topic, there's a 'Reading the states' group which I found able to contribute to: but how many of our US friends could equally message to a 'reading the counties' group?? Not a lot, perhaps!

Now there's an idea for a sister group. (But no doubt we'd be told off for posting anything to it.)

I can think of rather a lot of home counties novels, of course, and Yorkshire is easy...

I like that "reading the counties" idea. Somerset is easy too; think The Mists of Avalon. Ellis Peters for Salop. (And there's 2 more touchstones for you, raisincain.) Will you include Wessex?

Seriously, I'd like to see recommendations for the ones that aren't easy.

Not to get even more off the thread topic, whatever it may be. :-)

(signed) a US friend

I quite like the idea.

(My friends would probably tell you that I`m overly receptive to new ideas, though.)

#56 - hazelk - "Would many from the US be able to contribute ?"

I don`t know - I can think of some in the US and elsewhere who know more Eng Lit than the average English person, but maybe that`s not typical.

I did have a go at a `support local talent` section in one of the Brits groups - not much response, though Bo had a go.

I`d give it a whirl if you wanted to - there`s a lot to go at. Better to try and fail than not try at all.

# 56 - BoPeep - "no doubt we`d be told off..."

Years ago I mentioned to my elderly father I was doing a presentation to new recruits at my place of employment on the merits of joining the Trade Union and wasn`t expecting an easy ride. I`ve always remembered his sound advice -

"If they don`t like it, tell them to **** off".

I find that good advice to live by.

Best,

Nick

OK Nick and BoPeep - But it'll have to be 'Reading the towns and counties' I think. I'll do it.

#60: new group as previous i.e. 'Reading the towns and counties'

Fast work. i`ve joined.

One last note about irony for MrsLee >46 MrsLee: and that is that some of the most skilful writers use irony for powerful comic effect. In one of Wodehouse's stories Bertie is complaining about having to deal with the pampered son of an American millionaire. Telling Jeeves that the boy told Freddy Threepwood he had a face like a fish, Bertie adds, "If he says I've got a face like a fish I'll pop him." Jeeves remarks, "Perhaps the young gentleman will not notice that you have a face like a fish, sir." "Well, yes, there is that," Bertie replies.

Laura, I'm astonished! I grew up knowing that they were different, but then I did also grow up watching The Waltons. :-)
(I think I was about 8 before I discovered that New England wasn't a state, though - context doesn't always make it clear.)

And not forgetting that John Denver used West Virginian country roads to take him home.

Sadly I also knew that, John Denver only had one hit in the UK - 'Annie's Song'.
It just sticks in my head because of a brilliant reggae version of it by Toots and the Maytals.

Yes, but he used to appear on dreary tv specials as far back as 1978 in my memory (and undoubtedly much earlier), and John Denver tapes were always on offer at service stations so we have no excuse, really.

(Pedantry: he also had a top 50 hit ('Perhaps Love') with Placido Domingo in 1981. And of course there's the cover of 'Leaving on a Jet Plane' by Peter Paul and Mary.)

>66 Jargoneer:-69

How come I know most of the words if it wasn't a hit? Was it covered by Olivia Newton John, or is this a false memory?

Olivia Newton-John - I think it was. Yup, no.15, 1973. I know he used to sing it on tv fairly regularly - presumably the BBC assumed that we already knew at least three songs of his so would buy the US tv specials and show them here.

I think every middle-of-the-road artist had a go at the song, and it was a Radio 2 staple for years. I remember when he died and the relevations of wife-beating, alcoholism, and drug use appeared - it's always the 'clean living' ones.

Re #69 - I'm old-fashioned, I don't believe a song is a hit unless it reaches the top 40.

Country Roads was hit in Australia. Does that help? I know all the words.