Transition sigh

From Obama's new transition site:
The Obama Administration will call on Americans to serve in order to meet the nation’s challenges. President-Elect Obama will expand national service programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps and will create a new Classroom Corps to help teachers in underserved schools, as well as a new Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, and Veterans Corps. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.

(hat tip to Coyote Blog)

That blog post amusingly characterizes this as a tax on those making under $250,000. I can think of a few harsher words. Read a lot of disputes during the election about whether Obama's national service plans would be mandatory or not, and I guess now we know. Awesome.

The good news is we can’t afford the $3.5 Billion a year cost to administrate this program.

Oh sh*t, did I just “volunteer” to pay for something?

Read it all in the PDF, here:
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/NationalServicePlanFactSheet.pdf

or cut to the chase:

“Barack Obama and Joe Biden’s national service plan will cost about $3.5 billion per year when it is fully implemented. They will maintain fiscal responsibility and prevent any increase in the deficit by offsetting cuts and revenue sources in other parts of the government. This plan will be paid for in part by cancelling tax provisions that would otherwise help multinational corporations pay less in U.S. taxes starting in 2008 by reallocating tax deductions for interest expenses between income earned in the U.S. and income earned abroad. The rest of the plan will be funded using a small portion of the savings associated with ending the war in Iraq.”

Really, you can’t make this stuff up…

I'm wondering if the fact sheet's $3.5 billion was scored for just "enabling" "universal voluntary service" or for the mandatory service we are apparently now going to require from age 10 to 22.

How can anyone even write a fact sheet that uses the phrase "universal voluntary"?

I have been trying to sit quietly and avoid the s-word. But seriously, guys. This is evil.

It's voluntary much like how the draft was voluntary.

Hey, nperrin, Barack Obama and Joe Biden know that you've been wanting to serve your country, it's just that no-one has asked, and you don't know how. But it's simple - perhaps you speak Bahasa Melayu and want to record VOA propaganda. Or perhaps your retired parents can put down their golf clubs and pick up a street broom. I'm sure the unionized guys at Public Works won't mind. And schoolchildren of America, forget the math and science, it wasn't working out all that well anyway, let's close the textbooks and get out there and...something. Do something. Yes. We can.

The Constitution prohibits involuntary servitude.

Just got a massive burst of schaudenfruede (or however you spell it) at all the young people who voted for Obama.

>7 Carnophile: - Hahahaha.

Really, its a good idea, community service is helpful for young people to do. Usually, it exposes them to different people, puts them outside their comfort zone, helps them to appreciate what they can do to make their community better. That said....forcing the public to participate in any activity usually does not lead to good things, and a lot of the benefits that I mentioned would be undermined because kids would be doing the service as quickly as they could just to get it done. I don't see this working out well.

Just skimmed the pdf file enevada provided. Most of it is voluntary, not involuntary (although the 'voluntary' parts have a certain "the gov't pays the piper, therefore calls the tune" aspect).

However, there is this ambiguous passage:

"Obama and Biden believe that middle and high school students should be expected to engage in community service for 50 hours annually during the school year or summer months."

What exactly does "should be expected to" mean? It certainly sounds like they want it to be mandatory

The passage continues:

"They will develop national guidelines for service-learning and community service programs, and will give schools better tools both to develop successful programs and to document the experience of students at all levels."

"Better tools to document the experience" when parsed through an Orwellian double-speak translator, comes out as "You'll be required to prove you did at least X hours of 'service'."
After all, schools don't need "better tools both to document" stuff. They have computers now. (Obviously this is not a generalized "let's get more computers into schools" plan.)

Overall...
Yikes.

The horror is that most schools already have mandatory volunteer hours. Also, they make students do all kinds of terrible work - writing papers, reading books, doing math - with no pay and you have to prove you did it! They keep track with this awful number and letter system, and the record follows you all your life. Big brother man, big brother.

It's different, as you damn well know.

Next up: jlelliot supports forcing everyone to split rocks in the prison yards.

"Kids have to take math tests now. It's totally the same, man!"

Whiners. You hit the nail on the head, jlelliott. We already have mandatory volunteer hours for the younguns; what's a little bit more?

Just take them at birth, and save everybody the hassle.

This part of post 11:

... most schools already have mandatory volunteer hours.

Does anyone know if that is really true?

Hmm, the proposal is that students do volunteer work as a part of their education. Students are required to do many other types of work as parts of their education. Seems like a pretty obvious comparison to me.

On the other hand, I am a little confused about how adding a requirement to education equates to forced labor (although I guess many students do have to take physical education classes). Care to elaborate?

>13 codyed:
Codyed, I agree that the present system is bad, but that doesn't mean that this wouldn't be a change for the worse.

I am a little confused about how adding a requirement equates to forced labor... Care to elaborate?

I am confused by your confusion. How is being required by law to ladle out soup in a soup kitchen (or whatever) not forced labor?

Jlelliott - This is more devious than that. Under this approach, not only might they have to do awful things as part of their "learning", but some of those things may involve leaving their school building and going into the "community", exposing other people to them and their government indoctrination. Evil.

Another reason to home school.

Seriously. I went to a private high school that had mandatory community service for all students. One of our trustees, a guy named Bill Buckley, thought it was great, and a key formative experience for him (see his article, "God and Boys at Millbrook"). I'd love to see it used as a model for public schools. I heard him, and his brother Jim, suggest it on more than one occassion.

I like this seems like a wonderful idea until a community requires students to do something liberals don't like.

Let me elaborate: If it is "You have to do this when you're 17 or you go to jail" then, well, there it is.

OTOH, this may be "encouraged" in a variety of ways that don't involve "do it or else." If so, then good (or, less bad). Details pending.

The Orwellian double-speak of "better tools to document (blah blah)" I find...unnerving.

>19 A_musing:
The key word in this post being "private." It is not backed by law.

I must say I am a tad baffled at the ostensible failure to understand the distinction between voluntary and involuntary.

What is disturbing is the lunatic belief held by many liberals that the only suitable way in which to better a community is through involuntary servitude.

Just imagine that mindset.

X is good. Therefore, being required by law to do X is also good. There's no difference! Come on, guys.

My daughter's father and I both encourage our teenage to participate in community service. She balked initially, but now she is very receptive (for the most part). She then, of her own initiative, joined AFROTC and that program also encourages community service which she now looks for opportunities on her own in order to increase her ranking. Point is, I've seen in her growth, maturity and most of all humility...she understands that you can benefit from hard work and helping others, even if you don't get paid. To somehow incorporate this into the educational curriculum would definitely be a CHANGE, but I don't see a downside to it. I can only see the communities and children benefiting. Think of the children interacting with seniors, mentoring their younger peers, helping out at animal shelters, etc. OK. I'm rambling...but I really like the idea :-)

#15 It's true here. What do they expect these kids to actually DO? In this litigious society, no one is really going to allow children to go any place where they might be exposed to something - their parents might not like it. Here, a lot of community service hours are spent running games at elementary school carnivals.

I went to a public school and had to do 30 hours of community service a year; it was cake and it looked good on the college applications. I also went to a public university and as a requirement for my scholarship I had to 35 hours of community service. I usually logged at least 50+ not counting all the work I did with my church, because well that didn't count. I really think community service is a good thing. I'm just not keen on forcing kids to do it.

#28, I agree, and the example in #26 proves this. The push needs to be from closer up than Washington.

I'd happily advocate a program to help schools have a half-hour a day, four days a week set aside for supervised activities that give students hands on learning experiences doing community service.

The word Buckley used for such a radical idea was "education".

FYI: one of his community service activities gave him his first shot helping to edit an article, from which he never recovered.

Of course you need to take into account some kids who frankly are incorrigible and will wreak havoc no matter what. I suppose they would receive a big fat F. But, overall, I think more would receive a positive experience than not.

I don't think anyone here is saying that community service is a bad thing, Madcow. Being forced (on top of the multitude of obligations of which our government already requires of us) by the government to do work for the betterment of a community (whatever that entails, though it sounds deliciously vague) is wrong.

True. I agree Codyed.

I just wanted to interject that I went to public school that required this and the world did not fall apart and I did not turn into a communist.

Yeah, if my child's school required community service, I would not have a problem with it as long as the supervision and structure were very tight.

If codyed and Madcow agree I think we have a new societal consensus.

Who wants to draft the Citizens' Ad Hoc Committee on Mandatory Volunteerism (WTF?) position paper that we'll fire off to the new Administration?

Really, I would like the opposite, little structure and more freedom. We were told do 30 hrs, however, you like (at least in high school). This allowed for each student to serve in a way that interested them and left the responsibility up to them to make the contacts and engage with adults. The parents and organization you volunteered at signed notes that you did your work. It worked well in our little school, dunno if it would work in a large school or in a government program.

The major point is that it is not required of any full citizens - it is required of students, as a way of teaching them to be involved in their immediate communities. As pointed out before, we require many things of students, all in an attempt to teach them to be functioning adults. You can object to this proposal on the grounds that volunteering doesn't teach you anything, or that mandating negates the whole point, or that students are already too busy as it is, but "zomg forced labor camps!" is not a valid objection.

As to those confused about how these programs work, they do not require specific volunteer work. You can volunteer for anything you feel is a good cause (this is the way I've seen it work in several states - including huge districts in southern ca).

>35 CutestLilBookworm:
Force your kid to do 80 hours of community service a week if you want (I hope you don't). But don't think you have the right to force my kid to do that.

I went to church sometimes as a kid; it didn't turn me into a Nazi. Mandatory church attendance all around!

People who argue "X has benefits, therefore should be required" are so completely missing the point.

Do we have any hard data which points to how effective these programs are in teaching students to be involved in their communities?

And yes, objecting to involuntary servitude on the grounds that it is indeed forced labor is a valid objection.

>38 jlelliott:
The major point is that it is not required of any full citizens - it is required of students

WTF?

"...forced labor camps!" is not a valid objection.

Only in the sense that there are no camps.

Or maybe it won't be forced labor. Maybe it will just be "To get a college loan from the gov't you have to do X gours of (whatever)."

But if it's "You must do labor by law," then it's forced labor. I am truly, deeply baffled as to how you could say it's not.

Let's turn it around: Then what would be forced labor?

>39 Carnophile:
I do hear your point about not having anything 'forced' upon your child and I'm sure many parents would agree with your outlook. I don't think the point is in forcing the children to do so many hours that there is no time for extracurriculars, studying, family time, etc. Exposure to the concept of community service and what it means in relation to being a productive member of society, I believe, is the point. Of course a child who learns to stay away from crime, work hard, save, is also becoming a productive member of society, but I'm thinking that the point of volunteerism is to instill more of an 'us' mentality in children as opposed to a 'me' mentality.

>38 jlelliott: If this program followed a format similar to the one you described, that would be excellent. If the children had a choice, they would be more receptive.

>39 Carnophile: The 'x has benefits, therefore should be required' is not the best formula to use. Prior to implementation, I would hope that they would provide evidence based practice, like they usually do before adding something to a curriculum to prove some measurable outcome that the children are expected to derive by participating in this 'service'.

Carnophile, I think you're getting a bit hysterical. Calm down breathe into a bag. Something. I think a lot of people here are trying to say, this is not the worst thing in the world to happen.

I agree with you that the government shouldn't legislate it, but man its community service. You're going apesh*t over Obama calling on others to help people.

When my son went the military academy the socialist bastards made him to community service EVERY WEEK!

I demand the right for my kids to be totally self-absorbed.

(Seriously, wasn't McCain's big selling point his service to his country? And that was during the time of the draft. My how one day can change things.)

Was McCain drafted? I can't remember.

He went to the Naval Academy so I say no. I read in his book about it but I can't remember after 8 years.

Edit for spelling, clarity

Forced labor camps!! I think not. That makes me think of kids cleaning the nasty school toilets, or picking trash up off the side of the road, maybe even mopping the hallways. I'm thinking more of activities that involve learning by helping others. Community clean up projects should be done by the programs already in place to tackle that or reserved for the delinquents who have to do service as part of their sentence.

Here's an idea, why don't schools work on improving academic performance and leave off the "character building" or - better yet - leave it to the parents, where it belongs.

link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/04/AR2007120400730....

From it:

"On the science portion, U.S. students, most of them 10th-graders, received an average score of 489 on a 1,000-point scale, 11 points below the average of the 30 countries. Canada, Japan and Korea were among the countries in which students outperformed U.S. counterparts. U.S. students were on par with peers in eight countries and outperformed those from five others.

In math, only four countries had average scores lower than the United States. Students in 23 countries had a higher average score, and those in two countries did about the same as the Americans. "

>39 Carnophile:
...I do hear your point about not having anything 'forced' upon your child...

I don't understand why the word "forced" is in quotes. It seems they're aiming at exactly that, forcing people to do work.

"I don't think the point is in forcing the children to do so many hours that there is no time for extracurriculars, studying, family time, etc."

The issue here is so totally not imnposition on time for other extracurriculars.

"Exposure to the concept of community service...is the point."

"Exposure"? If they're to be forced to do it, it's not exposure. This so totally misses the point.

"...the point of volunteerism is to instill more of an 'us' mentality in children as opposed to a 'me' mentality...."

I'm not a collectivist. I don't want my children to be indoctrinated with "us mentality" stuff. I don't want them to be indoctrinated with me mentality stuff either.

What is so fucking horrid about just leaving people alone and minding your own goddam business?

>39 Carnophile: The 'x has benefits, therefore should be required' is not the best formula to use. Prior to implementation, I would hope that they would provide evidence based practice...

The quality of the metrics is so totally not the issue.

"I agree with you that the government shouldn't legislate it, but man its community service. You're going apesh*t over Obama calling on others to help people."

If all he's doing is "calling on" people to help others, that harmless. He's planning on rather more than that, apparently.

I'm not a collectivist. I don't want my children to be indoctrinated with "us mentality" stuff. I don't want them to be indoctrinated with me mentality stuff either.

Carnophile: you have two choices: homeschool or parochial school (where service is indeed part of the curriculum, and where parents pay for the privilege).

Coerced virtue is a contradiction in terms.

Well if you are right, then thank god we did not elect McCain with that "Country First" bullsh*t.

Me first.

-41 I'm still confused about why making kids write essays and make finger paintings isn't forced labor. They are laboring, and it isn't optional, right? But you agree with it so it is okay? Or is there some deeper distinction?

-49 Now this is a valid point. Is the benefit worth the time and effort? Most of the extant programs require the "volunteer" time to be on the student's own time - outside of school. So you shouldn't really lose any teaching time. It also really shouldn't cost much to implement, though it would be nice to see the numbers from school districts that run similar programs.

>44 Arctic-Stranger:
I demand the right for my kids to be totally self-absorbed.

Don't talk trash about my kids, Artic.

It always comes down to this with the left: Serve, or you're self-absorbed, you selfish bastard!

It is the standard left-wing objection to...

...freedom.

Artic, jlelliot, my house has chipping paint on the outside. It could use a new paint job. When can I expect you guys to come paint it?

Freedom in the abstract is an impossibility. We are free to {Fill In The Blank}. You are free to object to Obama's plan, and to have your kids do what you want them to do. Unless you want them to do something illegal, or something that is impossible. (My daughter, in spite of my high hopes, is not free to be the first female major league pitcher. She throws like a girl.)

Naw, just form an organization ("paint carnie's house" maybe?) and you'll be able to recruit local school children as soon as our new president takes office :o)

54: I don't know why you assume we are in any way okay with the government forcing kids to go to school. I'm not the only one here who's argued against public schooling.

Also, the link given up top puts the cost of the program at $2.5 billion a year. And you don't seem very concerned with the value of the student's own time.

I'm not a collectivist. I don't want my children to be indoctrinated with "us mentality" stuff. I don't want them to be indoctrinated with me mentality stuff either.

QFT.

>53 Arctic-Stranger:

I didn't support or vote for McCain.

When can I expect you to come paint my house? You don't want to have a selfish "Me first" attitude, do you?

By the way, I think people should be allowed to have a "me first" attitude (whatever that means), as long as they're not harming anyone else.

If a person just wants to, e.g., study astronomy in the quiet of his own home, what's the problem? Why is this so terrifyiong and infuriating to liberals? This is not (only) a rhetorical question. I seriously, honestly don't get it.

-59 If you are against all requirements for any type of school then I can absolutely understand your opposition to this proposal, though I would expect a similar level of opposition for any other educational requirement (such as proposing an increased level of science or math for graduation, etc).

#59: 3.5 Billion. We can't afford this statist pipe dream anyhow. But, boy, it give you chills to see how some people warm to the idea of coercion.

So you guys aren't going to paint my house?

What about all the benefits of service? Why do you have this selfish "me first" attitude?

Bleagh.

I need to take a break.

Insofar as this distracts from the real educational mission of the schools (whatever that is anymore) , I think it is a waste.

We've already ruined public education.

There are few competent teachers and even fewer competent administrators.

I have nothing but contempt for the nitwits that tried to educate me, and the thought of placing additional requirements on students who're already overburdened makes me sick.

When school administrators can figure out how to properly hire and retain a staff of educators that have actually learned to read.... then we can start the conversation about public service.

I completely agree with Carnophile. There is nothing benevolent about this "idea", which is really just a recapitulation for the New Deal. Change is coming alright. Welcome to the USSA

Before:

"Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year."

After:

"Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free."

(h/t Liberty Papers)

It's good that he changed his position when the initial trial balloon generated so much opposition. Props to him for that. It would have been bad if he'd stuck to hus guns.

It's also great that we have the Net now and so can archive the various versions of these documents.

Hmmm...on second thought, did he change his position? Or did he just vague-enize the rhetoric? We might not know until he actually submits draft legislation on this to Congress.

My boys already do volunteer work with Boy Scouts. Will that count, or will they have to do *additional* volunteer work? Maybe the Boy Scouts will just have to disband so the young'uns will have time to work with the Obama Youth instead?