What Is Your Excuse for Believing in Praying?

Somehow, religion makes it so very easy for people to link two things as cause and effect without any proper justification. They do not need any evidence, can never show any proof, and invariably only demonstrate sheer coincidences. Christians, for example, can offer nothing to show any relationship or linkage but instead paint the false picture that since they “have found Jesus” their lives have changed for the better, and only good things have been happening to them since. Any bad thing that happens to them is assumed to be just Satan trying to test their faith, which of course contradicts their other theory of God being all-powerful and in control of everything that happens.

Yet, it always turns out that the only thing that has changed is their perception of reality. And so, faced with a tremendous lack of evidence to support their theory, these persons invariably choose not to find answers to the questions: “Could it all be just a coincidence?” and “Would these things have happened to me whether I did ‘X’ or not?” If God is all-seeing and all-knowing then He can read all our minds, so there is no need for prayer, especially doing so aloud. Unless, of course, it is not really intended for His benefit but instead is being done for some ulterior motive such as to generate mass hysteria or to impress other people. This latter explains the baseless nature of most crusades for public prayer.

As another example, if you are a Christian who is mediocre at sports and is competing to win an athletic race, your religion permits you to pray for God to let you win even though based upon the skills and preparedness of the competition you should come in dead last. If we assume that as a result of prayer God causes the leading contender to stumble and twist his leg giving you precious seconds enough to let you win, you, the triumphant Christian, would then claim the victory and thank God for answering your prayer, totally ignoring the evil that God did in interfering in the race to enable an undeserving person like you to win. However, if you were the one who stumbled you would of course blame the Devil for the same deed.

#1 If we assume that as a result of prayer God causes the leading contender to stumble and twist his leg giving you precious seconds enough to let you win, you, the triumphant Christian, would then claim the victory and thank God for answering your prayer, totally ignoring the evil that God did in interfering in the race to enable an undeserving person like you to win.

Welcome to LT and the Christianity group.

Don't think I have ever seen prayer be efficacious in such a way as with your example.

The prayer that I am familiar with asks for daily bread and to be forgiven as we forgive.

Gee, sorry man; I just hit "flag abuse" when I meant to be hitting back to "top" ...'tried to back out of it; don't know if it went through or not. Really sorry.

Some replies to your post:

1. Praying for victory in sports games is hardly a universal Christian practice. Most if not all serious Christian thinkers would consider it trivializing of prayer and indeed God. An exception is granted if the opponent is the Yankees.

2. There is, as you point out, a real problem with reading significance into a complex or random world. We are built to spot patterns, and will spot them where they don't exist. Some of our earliest written documents consist of tablets on the top part of which a Sumerian diviner would record some interesting event—a calf born with a particular deformity, for example—and on the bottom, at the end of the year, he would record what had happened that year. They did it to figure out the causes. Eventually these got codified into systems.

No doubt a fair number of Christians use this sort of logic all the time—seeing God in every success and the Devil in every failure. (If you think most do, well, I think you're probably not asking them about it—the fixation on petitionary prayer below indicates to me that your understanding of prayer is not directly informed by a lot of contact with believers.) But, in my experience, atheism is hardly correlated with a lack of superstitious irrationality. I have not, for example, noticed that Christian athletes are any more prone to believe in lucky socks than non-Christian ones. (Indeed, I think a serious Christian faith purges itself of all such trivialities.)

3. You seem fixated on petitionary prayer. This is a peculiar, narrow understanding of the practice. Christian denominations no doubt approach prayer from all sorts of directions, but none thinks that prayer is mostly just "asking God for things." As the Catholic Catechism put it, quoting St. Therese of Lisieux, "prayer is a surge of the heart; it is a simple look turned toward heaven, it is a cry of recognition and of love, embracing both trial and joy." Lots of Christian prayer involves no element of "asking" at all.

As a Christian obviously I believe in the possibility of prayer resulting in direct, personal divine intervention. But, frankly, I think, as with most religious experience the primary effect is much less mysterious. Prayer can work in mysterious ways but it mostly works in completely obvious ways. Spend ten or twenty minutes every day thinking seriously and deeply about your relationships with others, and I suspect you'll discover you're not living up to who you ought to be. You'll realize what you've done wrong, you'll see others more clearly and you'll end up inspired to love the people around you more deeply and more effectively.

Timspalding, But, frankly, I think, as with most religious experience the primary effect is much less mysterious. Prayer can work in mysterious ways but it mostly works in completely obvious ways.

Tim, very thoughtful comment. With so much attention to the mysteries of religion and faith, it is good to be reminded that so much of everyday is the bulk of religious faith, practice, and experience.

Richard

1. Christians pray for everything, including rain,good weather, health, passing exams, many trivial day to day things, so I am not sure what point you were trying to make in (1). The rest of your points are well taken, except in your final paragraph where you characterize mental reflections as prayer. People behave that way on a daily basis and it does not involve any kind of spiritual or religious component. It is called love for family and friends.

Okay, I'll be blunter. Christians who pray for their team to win are both mental and moral idiots. If you see a lot of this, I suspect a few things are at work here: (1) Some Christians are, (2) You're seeing less than you say, (3) Christians will often pray at game time for something else--don't get hurt, not hurt anyone, strength, learning, a closer relationship to God.

Your second point is definitely true. You don't need to be Christian—or any other religion—to take a chunk of time out of your day to examine your relationship to others. In my experience, however, most atheists don't take that time and, mutatis mutandis, that's too bad. The examined life is open to all, but there's something to be said for a belief system that fosters it.

Christians pray for everything, including rain,good weather, health, passing exams, many trivial day to day things, so I am not sure what point you were trying to make in (1).

I am kind of waiting for you to make a point. It will aid our exchange of ideas.

Christians are called to pray continuously. And so some of us do so. I need to pray more than I do, and to pray for even more trivial things.

You were not speaking of continual prayer. you were speaking of praying to win a ball game.

That is not Christian prayer. In fact I played sports. We prayed before each ballgame. Never once did we pray for victory. What are you commenting about?

And what is your point? If your point is that you do not think God exists? We got that. You do not think God exists. Do you have something more to add?

David constantly prayed for God to smite his enemies. This while playing Robin Hood in the mountains and gullies of Israel. What's the difference between that and praying for your football team to win a game? David was asking God to kill people on his behalf, football fans just pray for their team to win a game, preferably with no serious injuries. Which of these puts the greater strain on God to answer?

geneg

And Psalm 132 137 asks God to kill Babylonian babies. Always thought that was an interesting addition to the book that features Psalm 23. Maybe even better material for your point?

At least we are now discussing something tangible rather than an imaginary football team.

David constantly prayed for God to smite his enemies. This while playing Robin Hood in the mountains and gullies of Israel. What's the difference between that and praying for your football team to win a game?

Wait, so for God to favor Israel is the same as for God to favor a little league team. Does this need a response?

Isn't it? Ask and ye shall receive we are told. I don't recall any lessons on prayer from Jesus except how and where, not what to pray for. If your god considers a prayer for success for your child (or your favorite multi-bazillionaire football player) to be less worthy than a prayer for success by a bomb-throwing (if he had had any back then) outlaw then I wish you would meet my God.

I don't know, Gene... I could have sworn there was a pretty explicit instruction on what to pray for.

Like I said, he taught us how to pray. the Lord's prayer is a template for prayer. If I wish to include in my petitions the desired outcome of a football game, why not? After all He knows what you pray for before you pray. After all, not including something that could mean the difference between a Sunday afternoon in pleasant surroundings or gut wrenching agony would be a more than disingenuous prayer, don't you think. Especially, when you consider that God knows your heart is set on the outcome of the game.

Yes, thy will be done, and oh, by the way, if you haven't given any consideration regarding your will and the Cowboys this year, well, I've got a few ideas. Pull up a seat and let's talk.

I know that sounds flip, but gosh, what kind of God would dismiss all but the serious stuff, eh? He probably wants to talk about the Cowboys as much as I do. After all, they are God's Team until next year when we move back to Atlanta when He'll be rooting for the Falcons. I'm sure if he gets tired of anything it's people praying to be cured of the incurable.

This whole idea of saving prayer for the important stuff (whatever that means) is just a limitation we, as humans, from our human understanding, put on God. My God has no such limitations.

So long as I get my Mercedes...

For the record, the only prayer from me will be against those evil Cowboys.

Hail to the Redskins.

Seriously, I am very happy that this thread is turning into a real, and edifying, discussion. And I pray for your forgiveness that I will need to be absent for the most part from really participating for a couple days.

I hope you will let me join in later.

# 1 -- My answer to your original question is extremely simple and can be found at
Prayer May Reshape Your Brain ... And Your Reality

Sorry Richard, you seem to be the odd man out in this discussion, the others seem to get the point. I believe you are trying your best not to get. It is strange how some people to defend their position feign ignorance. Open your eyes and look around you! Listen to people pray, pay attention to what they say. You are not the only person who prays, so you can’t use just your prayers as the definitive status! How do you know what other teams pray for? Your denials won't change reality. Turn on your TV next Sunday and listen the prayers, for example. I thank everyone for their input.

>18 Reality1843: - as Tim points out in >4 timspalding:, petitionary prayer is only one form of prayer. There is a rich tradition of contemplative prayer, in which one doesn't ask for anything but one often feels a sense of peace and unity with God, self and others. That would seem to be rather a good thing, wouldn't it, especially the "self" and "others" bit, even if you don't believe in God? There is also prayer of thanksgiving, just being grateful for life, the universe and everything. Again, rather a good frame of mind to be in even if one doesn't believe in God. So why are you so critical, Reality1843?

Johnthefireman: Don't misunderstand me. I am not against people praying; I encourage them to do so, especially if it helps them get through the day or makes them hopeful and happy. My own opinion is that if people learned to face the reality they would not need to pray. Self- reflection can achieve the same result. Some people have been taught from an early age and believe the answer to everything is prayer. Their proof that it works has always been: If I pray for rain and it rains, then my prayer has been heard and answered. It could not possibly have rained because there was an approaching hurricane on the way before I prayed, or that the result would be the same if I had prayed to a stone, or not prayed at all.

People are entitled to do what works for them, within the law of course (and I don’t mean divine law), but my opposition is when unfounded beliefs are imposed on others, such as in schools. When I abstain from saying Grace, for example, believers often ask, “What can it hurt?” It does the damage of making me a hypocrite, and is usually a backdoor way of trying to convert me. Not everyone needs an escape from reality. They also have the mistaken belief that I will do it to “fit in with the religious crowd”. I get along with the pious as well the person who punctuates his sentences with curse words, without envying either. I am my own person and not easily influenced by the crowd mentality.

I am the proud survivor of Sunday school brainwashing. I am much older now, but have sat by for too many years while the more vocal but less realistic have tried to force their unfounded beliefs on others. So for whatever years I have left on this earth, I will be encouraging people to use their brains and carefully analyze things before they believe.
One way I do this is by asking questions.

> #20 My own opinion is that if people learned to face the reality they would not need to pray. Self- reflection can achieve the same result.

I think I understand the point that you are making here, but I think you are still focusing on a very narrow definition of "prayer." Yes, there are Christians who think prayer is basically a wish-list that we recite to God. God is not Santa Clause, after all. I do think, though, that what you call "self-reflection" others may call prayer or meditation.

>20 Reality1843:

Reality1843 is a reference to the Millerites?

> I am the proud survivor of Sunday school brainwashing

I think it might be worth thinking whether your ideas are wholly and entirely "using your brains," rather than a (natural) reaction to a way of being brought up. I would say the same about someone who was brought up in a rigidly atheist home who later found God. We can't factor out our experiences, but I think we should be aware of them.

Prayer has many purposes

First of all it is and act of communion and communication, thus and end in itself and not a means of acheiving something else. It is an expression of, and a deepening of, the relationship between the person praying and God. Most Christian prayer is (or at least should be) of this form.

Within that relationship, however, we are encouraged to request things of God at times, First and fomost we are tp pray for the spiritual gifts that God wants to give us. This is no great problem - as the issue with God's gifts is not God's willingness to give them but our willingness to recieve them. Praying for them therefore by its nature opens us to recieve the gifts.

Things become more complicated when we pray for things of a more mundane sort. That can be seen at several levels. First of all, if Christianity is a relationship with God it would be odd if we were told not to express to God our needs and desires, and also our concerns about those whom we care about in one way or another. However it has to be acknowledged that Scripture also encourages us to expect God to respond to our prayers.

The problem, philosophically speaking, is in fact just a particular case of the problem of the relationship between divine and human will. One way of looking at it is this. God does not need us to do anything. However by giving us freedom of choice, in order for that to be meaningful, God has to in some sense let God's overall purposes also incorporate our free choices. If that is the case the there is no particular reason not to say that God also incorporates our prayers into God's plans, so that it is not so much a case of our prayers changing the mind of God, but rather human prayers are, by God's condecension, somehow incorporated into the mind of God.

And finally, the true Christian prayer is always of course paterened on that of Jesus, who prayerd "Father, for you all things are possible; remove this cup from me; yet, not what I want, but what you want" (Mk 14:36 NRSV)

There are plenty of studies on this. From my collection the final chapters of Brian Davies, Thinking about God is a good place to start

If the only prayer you said in your whole life was, "thank you," that would suffice. ~ Meister Eckhart

Honestly folks, this is a prime example of trolling. There's no reason to respond to Reality or geneg.

For once, I'd love to come into a forum where some folks were hating on Christianity only to see no responses at all. That would be simply delightful, as it deprives the haters of the very thing they need to continue -- a response.

to (27): Remember the words of 1 Peter 3:15-16

"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander."

Reality1843 says in (20):

"I am the proud survivor of Sunday school brainwashing. ... So for whatever years I have left on this earth, I will be encouraging people to use their brains and carefully analyze things before they believe. One way I do this is by asking questions."

Which is fair enough. There should be no moratorium on questions. Indeed I have taught sunday schools and youth groups for many years now and I always encourage the asking of questions. In a world that rarely bothers to teach our youth to think critically about things, I think it is an important part of Church ministry to encourage young people to understand how vested interests are telling them how they should think and act - and to equip them with the tools to stand up for their own beliefs.

If faith is not reasonable then only unreasonable people will be faithful.

What is more, had this thread not been started, I would not have read Tim Spaldings wonderful reply at (4) above. Its worth reading "trolls" (if that is what they are) when you see reasoned responses that teach you something.

Finally, just finished reading Christianity: A Guide for the Perplexed by Keith Ward. Some good chapters on prayer in there too.

Besides, I for one recognized the trolling right away. That doesn't mean that we can't, in good LT fashion, turn the OP into something interesting to discuss. If we are believers, then it probably is worthwhile discussing prayer as a spiritual and religious activity.

Thanks for the defense Oakes. I do have a wonderful friend who belongs to Opus Dei and he has more than once tried to talk me into it.

I'm not sure why I'm being accused of being a troll here. Is it because I pray to God that my football team win, if it be His will? I'm sorry, I missed the chapters and versus (outside of the Sermon on the Mount) that say anything about what I can pray for and what I can't. It seems to me the idea of only praying for serious stuff is a human hangup, not a Christian requirement. God is not an emanation of the human psyche. So far, with regard to my football team God has come through more often than not.

If this thread is about prayer, how am I trolling here?

Please, do not refer to me as a Christian hater. You don't know anything about my Christianity. It may not be just like yours, but that's only because you are wrong.

And just to clarify . . . Gene I never thought you were a troll, and if my post inadvertently implied that, I apologize. It did seem clear to me that the OP was something of a troll. Or at least, a passive-aggressive/hostile "question."

I laughed when I saw Gene described as a troll and Christian-hater. On the former, he's a longstanding and constructive LT member; on the latter, as he implies himself, Christianity is a broad church and on LT we see fairly civilised conversations between Christians of widely differing views.

Actually I'm not so worried about Christian-haters anyway. Are we so insecure that we have to get defensive when someone disagrees with us, or even hates us? As sirfurboy says in >29 sirfurboy:, just answer politely, and as walk2work says in >30 walk2work:, it can be turned into an interesting conversation.

When I abstain from saying Grace, for example, believers often ask, “What can it hurt?” It does the damage of making me a hypocrite

Not so much that, but if you ostentatiously abstain from saying Grace, it probably makes you look ungracious/ungrateful. Perhaps when other folks are saying Grace, you can indulge in a moment's reflection.

As KenoticRunner noted, If the only prayer you said in your whole life was, "thank you," that would suffice. ~ Meister Eckhart You don't even have to say "thank you" to anyone in particular: just adopt an attitude of gratitude.

I know a number of people who are religious about saying grace but don't bother reflecting on the labor to earn the food, the fellow persons who sold it, distributed it, grew it, raised it, or even the plants animals involved, the energy from the sun, and the gift of all creation sitting here in front of oneself on the plate.

Gratitude flows from me, through and with the lives of many, interwoven with the creation, to, somehow, the ousia of the Creator in celebration of the mystery.

Food that sustains me. A mystery that sustains me.

Then again, I wonder if my nature of "prayer" has little to do with that of many others.

Reality 1843:
I could give you verse after verse of Scripture that shows the importance and power of prayer (1 Thessalonians 5:17, Joshua 10:1-14, Matthew 7:7-11, being just a few). I could tell you that prayer is an act of obedience to God and that it doesn't matter WHY Christians are commanded to pray... it's enough to know that God commanded it. (John 14:15) I can tell you all this -and much more- but from what I gather, you don't take the Bible very seriously, and probably won't really care.
I don't think prayer is what you dislike so much. I think what you really can't stand is the fact that God is God. He is sovereign and will do what brings Himself glory. (Romans 9:17-24) When Jesus was speaking to His disciples prior to His arrest and crucifixion, He said: "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated Me first...If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed My teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of My name, for they do not know the One who sent Me." (John 15:18, 20,21)
In this discussion thread, Reality1843, you have spoken very hateful words against something that God ordained and you've spoken against people who obey His commands, albeit in imperfect ways. I find it ironic, then, that you yourself are a fulfillment of Jesus' very words. I hope that God changes your heart and shows you His wonderful forgiveness and powerful love. God "wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4) He loves you whether you accept Him or not. I'll be praying for you.

>31 geneg: It may not be just like yours, but that's only because you are wrong.

Gene,

I had put this topic on ignore, but noticed it again today.

Really enjoyed your line here in 31. Brought me a smile.

Thanks

"this is a prime example of trolling"

Surely not. The OP points out some things that Reality1843 finds intellectually unsatisfying in Christianity. Several Christians have found it to be a good jumping-off point for discussion of their attitude to prayer. If Reality1843 were a prime example of a troll, he wouldn't have given reasoned answers when his thesis was challenged, he would just have restated it.

I just joined this group because I thouht it was for Christians - people who want to learn or be more Christ like...... followers of Jesus???? Am I in the wrong group????

No, the group is correct. this thread is not.