same language is not the same
Talk Translating LibraryThing? (General Talk)
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1xtien
There's an interesting thing happening in the .nl translation. Dutch is Dutch as it is spoken in the Netherlands, which differs from Flemish as it is spoken in half of Belgium. The people working on the .nl site are both from the Netherlands and from Belgium.
The one word that would cause a problem is the translation of "you". In Belgium, they use "U". In Holland, they use "je". In Dutch, "U" is formal, it's a word you would use in court or with a person of over 70.
I don't want to create a flame war over one word, but I do think that using extremely formal language on LT in Dutch will not contribute to LT.nl's popularity. I can see the point of our Flemish friends, who may find "je" not appropriate.
Is there an LT advisory board who can assist in these type of decisions? I know it's a tough call because few of you guys speak Dutch.
I"m not in favor of creating an LT.be (although that would be different from LT.nl) at this time, other than having it link to LT.nl.
PS
I see that the subject of Dutch and Flemish has been discussed before. Let's just focus on the "U" vs "je" issue.
It's interesting to note that the U/je issue is different from Vous/tu or Sie/du.
The one word that would cause a problem is the translation of "you". In Belgium, they use "U". In Holland, they use "je". In Dutch, "U" is formal, it's a word you would use in court or with a person of over 70.
I don't want to create a flame war over one word, but I do think that using extremely formal language on LT in Dutch will not contribute to LT.nl's popularity. I can see the point of our Flemish friends, who may find "je" not appropriate.
Is there an LT advisory board who can assist in these type of decisions? I know it's a tough call because few of you guys speak Dutch.
I"m not in favor of creating an LT.be (although that would be different from LT.nl) at this time, other than having it link to LT.nl.
PS
I see that the subject of Dutch and Flemish has been discussed before. Let's just focus on the "U" vs "je" issue.
It's interesting to note that the U/je issue is different from Vous/tu or Sie/du.
2boekerij
>1 xtien:
Never mind xtien's other arguments in this matter are void, too : even the number one popular web site in the Netherlands--the localised www.google.nl that is--is using "u".
Never mind xtien's other arguments in this matter are void, too : even the number one popular web site in the Netherlands--the localised www.google.nl that is--is using "u".
3xtien
Funny you should say so. My google.nl says "maak van google je startpagina". "je". google.be, same.
I tried to formulate the issue so it would not provoke too much of an argument. Boekerij seems to take it very personal without providing any argumentation. As he is monopolizing the Dutch translation anyway, the point is settled.
I tried to formulate the issue so it would not provoke too much of an argument. Boekerij seems to take it very personal without providing any argumentation. As he is monopolizing the Dutch translation anyway, the point is settled.
4boekerij
>3 xtien:
For sure, you will be able to find some exceptions.
Then again, as far as everyone can check, google.nl's main page hasn't either, because of a lack of phrases, but is containing links. Let's try some of those.
Deze pagina aanpassen :
"Welkom op uw startpagina van Google. Pas de pagina aan uw wensen aan."
"Weerbericht : Bekijk weerberichten voor uw woonplaats en uw favoriete plaatsen over de hele wereld."
and so on.
Mind it is not "U" or "Uw"--for those would be rather/extremely formal indeed--but "u" and "uw" : the common, everyday language forms that are fit for general use indeed.
For sure, you will be able to find some exceptions.
Then again, as far as everyone can check, google.nl's main page hasn't either, because of a lack of phrases, but is containing links. Let's try some of those.
Deze pagina aanpassen :
"Welkom op uw startpagina van Google. Pas de pagina aan uw wensen aan."
"Weerbericht : Bekijk weerberichten voor uw woonplaats en uw favoriete plaatsen over de hele wereld."
and so on.
Mind it is not "U" or "Uw"--for those would be rather/extremely formal indeed--but "u" and "uw" : the common, everyday language forms that are fit for general use indeed.
5MMcM
>1 xtien:
You can now see why it is impractical to have a translation advisory board. The matters to be decided quickly become specific to nuances that only native or very experienced second language speakers can decide. Agreeing in principle is easy; no bureaucracy is needed for that. But agreeing on specifics is what really matters.
This group does allow for discussion of the site's overall intent and generally comparing notes. As you said, there are already discussions of tu / vous and du / Sie and tú / usted / vosotros / ustedes and tu / você / o senhor / a senhora / vós / vocês / os senhores / as senhoras. But all they manage generally is the idea of being somewhat informal but not insulting or childish, or perhaps to observe that far-flung languages tend to be conservative away from the center.
And there are language specific groups where the details can hopefully be hashed out before undertaking massive editing.
Like everything else on LT, it is managed by the members collaboratively.
You can now see why it is impractical to have a translation advisory board. The matters to be decided quickly become specific to nuances that only native or very experienced second language speakers can decide. Agreeing in principle is easy; no bureaucracy is needed for that. But agreeing on specifics is what really matters.
This group does allow for discussion of the site's overall intent and generally comparing notes. As you said, there are already discussions of tu / vous and du / Sie and tú / usted / vosotros / ustedes and tu / você / o senhor / a senhora / vós / vocês / os senhores / as senhoras. But all they manage generally is the idea of being somewhat informal but not insulting or childish, or perhaps to observe that far-flung languages tend to be conservative away from the center.
And there are language specific groups where the details can hopefully be hashed out before undertaking massive editing.
Like everything else on LT, it is managed by the members collaboratively.
6xtien
>5 MMcM:
I agree with most of what you say. tu/vous is not an issue that can be solved in general because it's different in every language. There's vous that is translated as du, and there's tu that is translated as Sie, and in both cases it can be either je or u. "U" with a capital is considered old fasioned.
Following the guideline of "informal but not childish", "je/jij" is the correct translation of "you". Unfortunately, that's very hard to verify for all except the Dutch and the Flemish.
I agree with most of what you say. tu/vous is not an issue that can be solved in general because it's different in every language. There's vous that is translated as du, and there's tu that is translated as Sie, and in both cases it can be either je or u. "U" with a capital is considered old fasioned.
Following the guideline of "informal but not childish", "je/jij" is the correct translation of "you". Unfortunately, that's very hard to verify for all except the Dutch and the Flemish.
