Is there an I focus in faith today?

Listening to the radio today, the song Only Imagine played. It has always seemed to me telling the number of 1st person references in that song.

Is the 1st person focus entering more strongly into contemporary expressions of faith? Is there a stronger "I" focus today?

Some older hymns:

Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee;
Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty!
God in three Persons, blessed Trinity!

I ratio - 1/27

Crown him with many crowns,
the Lamb upon his throne,
Hark! how the heavenly anthem drowns
all music but its own.
Awake, my soul, and sing
of him who died for thee,
and hail him as thy matchless King
through all eternity

I ratio - 1/42

Joy to the World , the Lord is come!
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare Him room,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing.

I ratio - 0

Joyful, joyful, we adore thee,
God of glory, Lord of love;
hearts unfold like flowers before thee,
opening to the sun above.
Melt the clouds of sin and sadness;
drive the dark of doubt away.
Giver of immortal gladness,
fill us with the light of day!

I ratio - 2/46 (1st person plural)

Silent night, holy night
All is calm, all is bright
Round yon Virgin Mother and Child
Holy Infant so tender and mild
Sleep in heavenly peace
Sleep in heavenly peace

I ratio - 0

Imagine

Surrounded by Your glory, what will my heart feel
Will I dance for you Jesus or in awe of you be still
Will I stand in your presence or to my knees will I fall
Will I sing hallelujah, will I be able to speak at all
I can only imagine

I ratio - 8/51

Any thoughts? other hymns that might suggest another conclusion? is there a a greater "I" focus today? If so is that good? bad?

I ratio is the number of 1st person references to the total number of words

I think just paying attention to the public message of Christianity makes it apparent that it has become a self-centered religion. Heaven help us if it continues this way.

it dnt depend on anyone besides what u urself thinks

BTW, what happened to the Isaiah project?

#3 WTF does that mean? If it says what I think it says, that's true. But it doesn't say anything about what one thinks and what one thinks and what one does based on what one thinks is all important and if that is simply to say the magic incantation and go to heaven, then you might be very disappointed.

? .... say what noW?

When it comes to faith there's always a fine and delicate balance between the individual & the group/communal relationship to God. In the Bible we see very personal/individual responses to God (i.e., the prayers of David, Job, Paul, Mary, even Jesus) and we also see very obvious communal responses to God (i.e., the Exile out of Egypt, the OT Prophets message of the need for group repentance, the birth of the Early Church, etc...)

It's not an "either, or" question; but rather a synthesis "both, and" that incorporates both the "I" and the "We". No doubt, in the West we are way too focused on the individual. Having spent a few years in Japan, it seemed at times that the culture, including the church, was too focused on the group. As human beings we will always grapple with this dynamic. We can learn from each other; but the Bible definately lays out both a personal and group response to our Faith.

Gene,

The Isaiah project was put to bed for the winter. On some other projects and personal studies. Will pick back soon, and certainly for next summer - if not sooner.

thanks though for asking. Join me in gospeltalk group.

Richard

On the OP topic.

I had once asked this very question of a Christian friend, about the "I" focus of contemporary faith. He got upset and informed me that it was all about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and so there was no self centered orientation.

It seemed best at the time just to shut up. So I did.

Not sure why the question was upsetting, but it was.

I am not saying, good or bad. I am only asking if it is my false perception or if there is a difference in contemporary focus compared to that of earlier times.

I don't know if there is actually a difference, but the Self-Centered Christian Project does seem to have built up a head of steam. Wow, how anti-Christian are the Prosperity Gospel and the Radical Individualist Christians?

Ayn Rand is THE Anti-Christ.

Richard, I expect the uneasiness was the person either knew they didn't know what they were talking about or knew and had trouble with the cognitive dissonance that view would engender.

How early do you want to go? Psalms maybe? I will let you count the "I" focus.

1: LORD, how are they increased that trouble me! many are they that rise up against me.
2: Many there be which say of my soul, There is no help for him in God. Selah.
3: But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head.
4: I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and he heard me out of his holy hill. Selah.
5: I laid me down and slept; I awaked; for the LORD sustained me.
6: I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people, that have set themselves against me round about.
7: Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies upon the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.
8: Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Psalms are very full of personal laments - especially looking for help against enemies. Many psalms are personally focused to a level that becomes uncomfortable to me.

Is a plea for personal deliverance from trouble the same as an I focus?

If an I focus is not a plea for personal deliverance, or vice versa, then what is it in regard to religion?

The Psalms are full of personal laments, many of which are believed to be written by David, who, as the Bible states, had a heart after God's own.

In reading some of the above comments again, the prosperity gospel was mentioned in relation to the I focus. I guess there is a big difference between "give me, give me, give me" and "deliver me" or "cleanse me". If the greed is the I focus you are referring to then yes, there is way to much of it today.

Not so much the greed of the Prosperity Gospel. The "I" focus, if correct, would be my joy, my experience of holiness, my eternity in heaven.

Compared with a focus on God's holiness, God's glory, God's work.

The psalms are a good point. I think tonight I will look at the some of the more personal laments, to see if there seems a strong "I" focus.

Although let me state, there is in many psalms a call for God to choose me. And many of those have always seemed to me to be a little self serving. At times they have been excused as just honest expressions of human desires and emotions.

But I will look at some tonight, and report back.

Thanks,

Psalm 3 A cry for deliverance

Selah.
O LORD, how my adversaries have increased!
Many are rising up against me.
2 Many are saying of my soul,
“There is no deliverance for him in God.”

Selah.
3 But You, O LORD, are a shield about me,
My glory, and the One who lifts my head.
4 I was crying to the LORD with my voice,
And He answered me from His holy mountain.

Selah.
5 I lay down and slept;
I awoke, for the LORD sustains me.
6 I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people
Who have set themselves against me round about.
7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God!
For You have smitten all my enemies on the cheek;
You have shattered the teeth of the wicked.
8 Salvation belongs to the LORD;
Your blessing be upon Your people!

Not sure that this cry for help in need is the same as the "I" focus that I mentioned in the OP - but my count is 17/129 for the 8 verses. A little lower that the 8/51 in "Imagine", but pretty close.

Tomlinson "How great is our God."

Here is a contemporary song with a very low "I" ratio.

The splendor of the King,
Clothed in majesty
Let all the earth rejoice,
All the earth rejoice
He wraps himself in light,
And darkness tries to hide
And trembles at his voice,
And trembles at his voice*
*How great is our God, sing with me
How great is our God, and all will see
How great, How great is our God
Age to age He stands
And time is in His Hands
Beginning and the End,
Beginning and the End
The Godhead, Three in one
Father, Spirit, Son
The Lion and the Lamb,
The Lion and the Lamb

The focus most definitely placed on God.

In the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, I generally pray these two in the morning:

TE DEUM

We praise thee, O God :
we acknowledge thee to be the Lord.
All the earth doth worship thee :
the Father everlasting.
To thee all Angels cry aloud :
the Heavens, and all the Powers therein.
To thee Cherubim and Seraphim :
continually do cry,
Holy, Holy, Holy :
Lord God of Sabaoth;
Heaven and earth are full of the Majesty :
of thy glory.
The glorious company of the Apostles : praise thee.
The goodly fellowship of the Prophets : praise thee.
The noble army of Martyrs : praise thee.
The holy Church throughout all the world :
doth acknowledge thee;
The Father : of an infinite Majesty;
Thine honourable, true : and only Son;
Also the Holy Ghost : the Comforter.
Thou art the King of Glory : O Christ.
Thou art the everlasting Son : of the Father.
When thou tookest upon thee to deliver man :
thou didst not abhor the Virgin's womb.
When thou hadst overcome the sharpness of death :
thou didst open the Kingdom of Heaven to all believers.
Thou sittest at the right hand of God : in the glory of the Father.
We believe that thou shalt come : to be our Judge.
We therefore pray thee, help thy servants :
whom thou hast redeemed with thy precious blood.
Make them to be numbered with thy Saints : in glory everlasting.
O Lord, save thy people :
and bless thine heritage.
Govern them : and lift them up for ever.
Day by day : we magnify thee;
And we worship thy Name : ever world without end.
Vouchsafe, O Lord : to keep us this day without sin.
O Lord, have mercy upon us : have mercy upon us.
O Lord, let thy mercy lighten upon us :
as our trust is in thee.
O Lord, in thee have I trusted :
let me never be confounded.

BENEDICTUS

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; because He hath visited and wrought the redemption of His people:
And hath raised up an horn of salvation to us, in the house of David His servant:
As He spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets, who are from the beginning:
Salvation from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us:
To perform mercy to our fathers, and to remember His holy testament,
The oath, which He swore to Abraham our father, that He would grant to us,
That being delivered from the hand of our enemies, we may serve Him without fear,
In holiness and justice before Him, all our days.
And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways:
To give knowledge of salvation to His people, unto the remission of their sins:
Through the bowels of the mercy of our God, in which the Orient from on high hath visited us:
To enlighten them that sit in darkness, and in the shadow of death: to direct our feet into the way of peace.

And these two in the evening:

MAGNIFICAT

My soul doth magnify the Lord : and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
For he hath regarded : the lowliness of his handmaiden.
For behold, from henceforth : all generations shall call me blessed.
For he that is mighty hath magnified me : and holy is his Name.
And his mercy is on them that fear him : throughout all generations.
He hath shewed strength with his arm : he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat : and hath exalted the humble and meek.
He hath filled the hungry with good things : and the rich he hath sent empty away.
He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel : as he promised to our forefathers, Abraham and his seed for ever.

NUNC DIMITTIS

Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace : according to thy word.
For mine eyes have seen : thy salvation,
Which thou hast prepared : before the face of all people;
To be a light to lighten the Gentiles : and to be the glory of thy people Israel.

I believe these four canticles, well put the Other and the us and the me in context.

One reads through the likes of these daily. The Psalter is read through monthly and its rollercoaster wailings are seen in this context.

As a Church, we've significantly forgotten how to pray.

Lex orandi. Lex credendi.

Thanks for commenting Kenotic.

Thanks, RBS. I'm a very orthodox heretic.

To the OP, I remember how, as an atheist, the words of I Can Only Imagine were, oh so fitting.

I could only *imagine*.

It totally befuddles me when "believers" sing that song. It is such a set of lyrics of non-belief.

Oddly enough here's how the lyrics get translated into French.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmol18pmV1I

je ne peux m'imaginer - I can't imagine.

So bizarrely, it was an intriguing song for someone like me who had completely lost faith.

Far from anything doctrinal, the song is a literal profession of belief (or in the case of the French version, the disbelief) in the imaginary.

Well for what its worth. When the disciples asked Jesus to teach the pray, He taught them the Lords prayer. A prayer very focused on God and the community. Lots of our and we language. The creeds are community focus. Even if they use I language it is for the individual to affirm the community's beliefs.

The Psalms are individually focused but they are written from the community leaders, priests etc ( or King's if you buy into that history) for the use of the whole of Israel and the Jewish community.

#19

My Episcopal (Anglican) Morning Prayer remembrances are of the Venite:

O Come, let us sing unto the Lord; * let us heartily rejoice in the strength of our salvation.
Let us come beforehis presence with thanksgiving; * and show ourselves glad in him with psalms.
For the Lord is a great God; * and a great King above all gods.
In his hand are all the corners of the earth; * and the strength of the hill is his also.
The sea is his, and he made it; * and his hands prepared the dry land.
O come, let us worship and fall down, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.
For he is the Lord our God; * and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand.
O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness; * let the whole earth stand in awe of him.
For he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth; * and with righteousness to judge the world, and the people with his truth.

And of the Jubilate Deo:

O be joyful in the Lord, all ye lands; * serve the Lord with gladness, and come before his presence with a song.
Be ye sure that the Lord he is God; it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; * we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
O go your way into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise; * be thankful unto him, and speak good of his name.
For the Lord is gracious, his mercy is everlasting; * and his truth endureth from generaion to generation.

No I's here. These were nearly always sung, hence the * to help with the chant. (Unlike psalms proper, the canticles were most frequently sung all the way through -- not antiphonally). I copied these out of my 1928 Book of Common Prayer for remembrance sake.

Our Lutheran hymnals use similar Language in our current version of worship books.

vpfluke,

I thought only old people like me remember Morning Prayer. ;) The Episcopal Service (ECUSA) focuses too much on the Eucharist and too little on the prayer services. I have mentioned that to my priest.

My vote, return to Morning Prayer, with the Jubilate and Venite.

(And Prayer Books are supposed to be black. :) )

Richard

>25 richardbsmith: Our parish has lay officiants for Morning Prayer, Monday through Saturday, Evening Prayer, Monday through Friday.

I officiate every Tuesday evening. It's both easy and a great bit of discipline for me!

My favorite is the Magnificat.

(Prayer books come in many colors; I have several. I have a small leather-bound one in the glove box in the car. Light blue it is, with silver-edged pages. Handy in emergencies, or while waiting for something.)

richard

I am not young either -- I grew up Low Church. But became High Church during college in the 1960's. My current parish does sing the psalms in Anglican Chant (occasionally plainsong is used).

I just find that the Venite and the Jubilate Deo roll still around in my head. The Te Deum and the Benedictus (mentioned in an earlier post) are also in Morning Prayer, but they were less frequently used.

My baptismal prayer book is red -- maybe only pew copies were black.

(I was just kidding about the prayer book colors.:)

(Except I do think they should be black. A black leather prayer book is especially good.)

msladylib, how is the attendance at your daily Daily Morning Prayer services?

>28 richardbsmith: I was half-kidding about the colors; except I think I like variety.

The attendance is catch-as-catch can. Seldom exceeds 4 or 5, sometimes it's just the officiant.

About 98% of the time, attendance of my Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer services is...

1

Unless, of course, one counts the communion of the saints.

1 or 5, it does not matter.

Y'all have offered inspiration. It is good to hear of you who practice a traditional and regular prayer life.

Thanks,

Well, you do need at least two, according to the Prayer of St. Chrysostom at the end of MP: "... dost promise that when two or three are gathered together in thy Name thou wilt grant ...."

>32 vpfluke: There are always, I hope, at least two, more or less together, even if not in the same location! I depend on the event being repeated somewhere else at the same time, and am aware that I am praying with them, and, I hope, vice versa. Anyone else at Evening Prayer at 6:00 pm EST, Tuesday? You'll be praying with me.

The clergy person who initiated the practice (not our Rector, but an associate) at our church addressed this issue.

#33 My own view is that Christianity glorifies the "I".

It seems to me to purpose is to glorify the "other." There does need to be an I for there to be another.

For there to be love there must be another.

But the command is to be a servant of all. The context of Messiahship and hence of discipleship is suffering and service. Glorifying the "I" does not seem to be the point.

Mark 10:43-45 was the immediate scripture I used.

#32

Thus my allusion to the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints.