sff sci-fi/fantasy science fiction/fantasy

Can I just cry a little bit at the state of the tag sff? For some people, sff means science fiction and fantasy, for some it means sci-fi and fantasy, and for some all three are the same. Getting any kind of consensus on how those tags should be done would be impossible, given that tons of stuff has already been thrown in there. (Looking at the votes currently pending confirms this inability to get consensus.)

Lament, woe, gnash....

I will, however, bust metaphorical heads if someone combines "scientifiction" or "science fantasy" with those or with science fiction.

I'm so glad someone bought this up. I wasn't familiar with the term SFF until I stumbled across it checking if the tagg I used (Fantasy & SF) needed to combine with a variant.

I took the double FF in sff to indicate it related to both Scince Fiction and Fantasy books and it already icluded numerous tag combinations to that effect.

Nearly all suggestions to combine with new variants seem to produce a 'Mexican stand-off' in voting and I was just wondering what peoples thing was (as I haven't seen any corresponding attempts to seperate out existing combinations?

http://www.librarything.com/tag/sff

Currenly SFF appears to include:

Includes: sff, sf/f, Science Fiction/Fantasy, sci-fi/fantasy, SF&F, sf/fantasy, science fiction/fantasy, Fantasy/Science Fiction, SFF, scifi/fantasy, fantasy and science fiction, science fiction and fantasy, Science Fiction / Fantasy, sci fi/fantasy, SF/F, F&SF, SF/Fantasy, sf&f, Science Fiction & Fantasy, Sci-Fi/Fantasy, fantasy sf, Science Fiction and Fantasy, SciFi & Fantasy, Sci-Fi / Fantasy, Fantasy/SciFi, Fantasy/SF, sciencefictionfantasy, SciFi/Fantasy, f/sf, sf/fan, Sci-Fi & Fantasy, fantasy-scifi, fantasy/sci fi, sci fi / fantasy, Sci-fi/Fantasy, Scifi/Fantasy, sf-f, SF-Fantasy, SF Fantasy, Science Fiction/ Fantasy, fantasy/sci-fi, fantasy/science fiction, fantasy/sf, science fiction & fantasy, fantasy & science fiction, SCI FI / Fantasy, SciFi / Fantasy, SF/fantasy, sf / fantasy, Fantasy & Science Fiction, sci-fi / fantasy, sci-fi fantasy, Sci Fi/Fantasy, sf fantasy, science fiction fantasy, fantasy/scifi, scifi and fantasy, F/SF, Fantasy/Sci-Fi, science Fiction/Fantasy, scififan, Science-Fiction/Fantasy, Fantasy/ Science Fiction, sf-fantasy, fantasy and/or science fiction, f&sf, SF/FAN, Sci Fi & Fantasy, Fantasy / Sci-Fi, Sci Fi Fantasy, science fiction/ fantasy, Science Fiction Fantasy, sci fi fantasy, scifi & fantasy, science fiction / fantasy, Fantasy/Sci Fi, scififantasy, Scifi/fantasy, sci-fi and fantasy, sci fi or fantasy, Sci Fi / Fantasy, Fantasy/Sci-fi, scifi-fantasy, Sci-fi / Fantasy, Sci-Fi Fantasy, Sci-fi Fantasy, SF FANTASY, SCIFI/Fantasy, Fantasy & Sci-fi, Science fiction/Fantasy, Science fiction/fantasy, sci/fi fantasy, fantasy & sci-fi, Fantasy and Sci Fi, Fiction:Sci-fi/Fantasy, fantasy and sci fi, science-fiction and fantasy, SciFiFan, Fantasy and Science Fiction, SciFi&Fantasy, fantasy sci-fi, sciFi/fantasy, sci-fi & fantasy, Sci-fi/fantasy, Fantasy / Science Fiction, Sci-fi: Fantasy, SciFi-Fantasy, Sci-Fi and Fantasy, science-fiction/fantasy, Fantasy and science fiction, Fantasy/sci-fi, Sci-FI & Fantasy, Science Fiction/Fantasy, SciFI/Fantasy, Science fiction and fantasy, scifican, science fiction fansasy, Science fiction fantasy, sci fi & fantasy, Science Fiction and fantasy, SF/f, sci-fi: fantasy, fiction:sci-fi/fantasy, fantasy / science fiction, fatasy/sci-fi, fantasy / sci-fi, Fantasy/SCi-Fi, Sci-Fi/fantasy, science Fiction/fantasy, Fantasy/Sci fi, Sci Fi fantasy, Fantasy / Sci-fi, fantasy/ science fiction, Science fiction & Fantasy, fantasy/Scifi, Science fiction & fantasy, fantasy/SF, Fantasy Sci-Fi, Sci-fi & Fantasy, Science Fiction/ FAntasy, Sci fi/Fantasy, Sci-fi and Fantasy, Fantasy/Scifi, Fantasy/Sci-FI, Fantasy/scifi, sci-fi/fntasy, Fantasy SF, SCi-Fi/Fantasy, Fantasy/science fiction, Science fiction / fantasy, Sci/Fi Fantasy, SF/Fan, science fictionfantasy, Sf/fantasy, Fantasy & Sci-Fi, sfF, SF / Fantasy, science_fiction_-_fantasy, Fantasy and Science fiction, Fantasy/Sf, sf-Fantasy, Fantasy/sf, Sci fi fantasy, Sci-FI/Fantasy, Fantasy/Science fiction, Fantasy / sci-fi, sci-Fi/Fantasy, sff;, Sciencefictionfantasy, SF-fantasy, Science Fiction/fantasy, Sci-fi fantasy, Sci FI & Fantasy, ScienceFictionFantasy, Science Fiction & fantasy, scifi&fantasy, scifi / fantasy, Science_Fiction_-_Fantasy, science fiction/fantasy

Somehow I don't think people willing to lump science-fiction and fantasy will be agonizing over sub-genres of science-fiction. So the fact that they use this combined tag is reason enough for me to combine the lot.

So who are all the people voting 'no' and what is their reasoning?

I voted no because I personally believe in a strict separation between the terms science fiction and sci-fi.

> 5

For those of us who are not aficionados, would you please explain the difference? Or is that a can of worms?

A difference between Science Fiction and SciFi?

I'm with Lilithcat here - I was unaware that there was even a debate about that distinction...

I have always considered SciFi to be a shortening of the term Science Fiction.

I just assumed the argument was based on whether people wanted to keep Fantasy and Science Fiction separated (although that is easily achieved by not putting both terms and/or variants in the same tag)

I thought perhaps the term SFF was unclear and some people thought the double ff was an error and the taggers meant SF - which I wouldn't combine with a catch all heading that included both categories?

The suggestions are all to combine tags that appear to include both the categories Fantasy and Science Fiction - which although usually lumped together are different (although admittedly there is debate amongst purists about what constitutes the latter..)

The distinction used by some aficionados, though likely not even a majority of genre fans is:
Science fiction = high-brow science fiction
sci-fi = low-brow science fiction

It is/was a shortening of the term science fiction, but the meaning has diverged for some due to not wanting their science fiction lumped in with the schlock that came to be identified with the genre during past decades.

sff is definitely not (well not usually) a typo. it's usually a shortening of sf&f.

Though, to be fair, I did tag my copy of Bikini Planet as science fiction. (I almost never use the term sci-fi.

Is anyone actually using both "science fiction" and "sci-fi" as non-overlapping tags?

> 8

Science fiction = high-brow science fiction
sci-fi = low-brow science fiction

So there's likely a very fuzzy middle? I expect the highest of the high-brow and lowest of the low-brow are obvious to most, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a good deal of argument about which side of the line many works fall on.

Some people consider sci-fi a subset of science fiction. And some folks, even those who are genre fans, don't make a distinction.

But yes, there are some folks who don't overlap them.

The sci-fi tag is kept separate from science fiction. Or was separate, there's a proposal to combine them that I hope fails. If it passes, I'm going to propose combining mystery and crime fiction, cause the two are synonymous to me and most people.

>11 lilithcat: Oh yes. And it's complicated by the fact that some folks hate the distinction at all and will use the two terms interchangeably. And some folks who just don't care (which is probably a plurality within SFF fandom). The term distinction was a big argument in previous decades, and not so much now.

(Yes, I am tilting at windmills.)

If it passes, I'm going to propose combining mystery and crime fiction, cause the two are synonymous to me and most people.

I would agree if it wasn't for the fact that "mystery" can also be used in a theological sense.

#8

Okay - I see, although I think we are tending to agree that although users may perceive a distinction it's not really being applied in actual tag usage.

Also it's hard to imagine it as a reasonable distinction given that we all pretty much use the tag Fiction without batting an eyelid to the fact that this spans both High, Low and Middle brow.

Fiction is an overall tag and might then be sub divided to indicate a sub genre or type and really the same logic ought to apply to Science Fiction tagging. Surely it would make more sense to then sub tag as High Brow / Low Brow / Space Opera / Cyberpunk / Chod or whatever else you would care to delineate.

More to the point is how any of this relates to proposals to combine SFF with variants of - SF & Fantasy - OR - Science Fiction and Fantasy. It is a different argument.

If you agree in essence that SF / Sci Fi and Science Fiction are being used interchangeably regardless of your personal preference (which I am not knocking)

And you also agree that SFF is being used to indicate a combination of Fantasy and Science Fiction (of any and all brows)

Then surely it follows that it makes logical sense to combine SFF with any of the catch all categories which are listing both Fantasy and some form of SF/Sci Fi/Science Fiction.

As to the comment on 'retaliating' with a proposal to combine the terms Crime Fiction and Mystery - well the terms are not synonymous in the UK and mainstream bookshops here are unlikely to label sections Mystery.

The term Mystery on it's own (without a Fiction qualifier) also covers a whole host of other possibilities including theological, scientific, biographical, true crime, archeology and any numbers of others.

It's a mystery what happened to Lord Lucan, Jimmy Hoffa and and the Lindburg baby but you wouldn't expect to find a book on them mixed in with Crime Fiction.

Now if you proposed to combine Mystery Fiction and Crime Fiction there might be a closer debate -

Although, again, the distinction between the two is not based on how 'High brow' they are so much as an issue of content and the prevailing convention in the users country of origin.

I really don't think anyone using the tag sff is making a distinction between sci-fi and science fiction. Do you really think anyone out there uses sff to mean sci-fi & fantasy and also uses science fiction as a distinct tag, or vice versa?

Interesting to note that the top two books tagged sci-fi are Ender's Game and Dune, and number four is Fahrenheit 451. Most users of the tag don't observe the distinction?

The first use of the term 'retaliating' was in message 16. KingRat merely proposed proposing the combination, so that it could be voted on.

It's possible that some people are voting no on the "rule" that abbreviations not be combined. sff could stand for small form factor computers or the Scottish Fisherman's Association.

#8

Well I wasn't entirely serious when I used the word 'retaliating' and perhaps my flippancy was misplaced.

But the suggestion was that if people weren't going to distinguish between SF and Science Fiction then it was only fair the the equivalent Mystery and Crime Fiction proposal be thrown in to the ring. i.e - well if we are going to do this then we should also consider doing that...

I was making the point that the distinction is different and the proposal is not equivalent - although anyone is more than welcome to throw it out there as a voting suggestion.

Basically the term Crime Fiction indicates both that the book is fictional and that some sort of crime is involved. The word / tag 'Mystery' indicates neither (although books may be either or both) and is therefore not, by definition, synonymous.

Also the difference between 'Mystery' and Crime Fiction' has nothing to do with how High Brow the books are considered, which was KingRat's reasoning.

I can understand where KingRat is coming from in terms of how we value our own appreciation of a subject. I get the heebie jeebies at the modern use of the term R&B in music, which to me is nothing of the sort when compared with what was considered R&B in the 50's and 60's.

As for abbreviations - I would agree - except it's already combined with a large list of non abbreviated tags and no one seems to be suggesting separating SFF out?

Just interested is all, no axe to grind...

I wish sff hadn't won - I think one of the non-abreviated forms should be the overall tag.

I wouldn't expect a mystery/crime fiction combination to pass. I mostly would do it to make a point that just because some people consider them synonymous (as I actually do), doesn't mean that everyone does. As in, just because some folks consider sci-fi to be science fiction, there is a sizable group to which that's a very important distinction.

But yeah, getting back to sci-fi/fantasy and sf&f and my original thing. they could probably be combined fine because it's a big lumped thing anyway. But there's so much stuff thrown in it right now, and the voting on the various proposals was all over the map, that there needed to be some discussion in order to end the "mexican standoff" mentioned earlier.

Here is a link to an early discussion of the sci-fi / science fiction distinction.

ETA: Here's an even earlier statment of the issue.

#21

I wish sff hadn't won - I think one of the non-abreviated forms should be the overall tag

Amen to that...

I am a big supporter of keeping sci-fi and science fiction separate but in this case I've not bothered to vote.

For me sci-fi and science fiction mainly differ by the groups that use them, overlaid with the more media-oriented/low quality connotations of sci-fi.

#12

In the first round of combinations there was a proposal to combine sci-fi and science fiction and that lost. I am disappointed that we are having to have a vote on it again after just a few weeks pass.

As for me, I use sff for fantasy, speculative fiction and science fiction books. It's the vast majority of my fiction. *Then* I add the specific genre (except in those cases where I think it doesn't fit neatly in one of the two). So I have lots of books tagged "sff, fantasy, ..." or "sff, science fiction, ..."

I don't use sci-fi but I think the vast majority of people who use it don't differentiate it from science fiction (though I'm aware of the trufen who do) - so I'm all for inclusion.

OTOH I think "skiffy" should be kept separate, since these days it's taking on the meaning that the truefen give to sci-fi, and very few people use it as equivalent to science fiction (except some people who never read science fiction...)

And yes, non-abbreviated form would be better, but I think a lot of people use the tag like I do and so it makes sense to use the abbreviation, since the specific genre is spelled out later...

25> In the first round of combinations there was a proposal to combine sci-fi and science fiction and that lost. I am disappointed that we are having to have a vote on it again after just a few weeks pass.

Except that this isn't the same. I voted to keep sci-fi and science fiction separate but people using the sff tag are already lumping fantasy and science-fiction together, they aren't going to be concerned about splitting science fiction.

#27

I was responding directly to KingRat's post where he notes that the science fiction / sci-fi combination is being voted on (again!).

I'll let you folks figure out what to do with this singleton tag: fantasy & sci fi