INFINITE JEST: the end (with spoilers)
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1dchaikin
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******SPOILER WARNING!******
THIS WHOLE THREAD IS A SPOILER
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Finally, last night I finished Infinite Jest which doesn't seem to end so much as just kind of stop. Which is fine, and leaves us with a lot to think about. But, still I'm wondering what I missed, feeling incomplete. Certainly I'm not the only one feeling this way...right?
Nothing really ends, so I'm not satisfied how Gately, Madame Psychosis, all ETA (especially Stice), and the Inc's (especially Mario) are sort of left off, but, with exceptions, I'm OK with their state. And, as far as the AFR thing, if I understand correctly the master cartridge is buried with Himself in an essentially unreachable spot. I'm not sure about that, but that's at least a story.
What bothers me is:
1. What did Micheal Pemulis want to say to Hal? (pages 906-911).
2. Why was Orin screaming "Do it to her!"? (page 972)
3. What does this all mean for Hal? How do we get from page 967 - where Barry Loach is taping Hal, to page 1? Does this mean Hal's problem is completely caused by his withdrawal? And, since we know Hal got his game back for the Whataburger, does this mean he's back on Hope.
3a - or, alternatively, did Pemulis do something to Hal....
4. Why is the last part that references ETA a seemingly obscure bit on Barry Loach, who had never previously been discussed?
5. Am I reading too much into this:
Now, don't get me wrong, I wasn't bored by IJ (well, except for the Barry Loach bit which was hard to read when I was desperately hoping for more conclusive info) but there is a lot there whose purpose I can't figure out. What I mean is, did DFW throw a bunch of meaningless stuff in there and end it this way just to make the story sit and spin more in our heads?
This post isn't begging for answers so much as cleaning these this out of my system. So, feel free to answer or not and, certainly feel free to post your own thoughts on IJ's end.
******SPOILER WARNING!******
THIS WHOLE THREAD IS A SPOILER
****************************
****************************
Finally, last night I finished Infinite Jest which doesn't seem to end so much as just kind of stop. Which is fine, and leaves us with a lot to think about. But, still I'm wondering what I missed, feeling incomplete. Certainly I'm not the only one feeling this way...right?
Nothing really ends, so I'm not satisfied how Gately, Madame Psychosis, all ETA (especially Stice), and the Inc's (especially Mario) are sort of left off, but, with exceptions, I'm OK with their state. And, as far as the AFR thing, if I understand correctly the master cartridge is buried with Himself in an essentially unreachable spot. I'm not sure about that, but that's at least a story.
What bothers me is:
1. What did Micheal Pemulis want to say to Hal? (pages 906-911).
2. Why was Orin screaming "Do it to her!"? (page 972)
3. What does this all mean for Hal? How do we get from page 967 - where Barry Loach is taping Hal, to page 1? Does this mean Hal's problem is completely caused by his withdrawal? And, since we know Hal got his game back for the Whataburger, does this mean he's back on Hope.
3a - or, alternatively, did Pemulis do something to Hal....
4. Why is the last part that references ETA a seemingly obscure bit on Barry Loach, who had never previously been discussed?
5. Am I reading too much into this:
"Did Himself subject us to 500 seconds of the repeated cry 'Murderer!' for some reason, i.e. is the puzzlement and then boredom and then impatience and then excruciation and then near-rage aroused in the film's audience by the static repetitive final 1/3 of the film aroused for some theoretical-aesthetic end, or is Himself simply an amazingly shitty editor of his own stuff?"
Now, don't get me wrong, I wasn't bored by IJ (well, except for the Barry Loach bit which was hard to read when I was desperately hoping for more conclusive info) but there is a lot there whose purpose I can't figure out. What I mean is, did DFW throw a bunch of meaningless stuff in there and end it this way just to make the story sit and spin more in our heads?
This post isn't begging for answers so much as cleaning these this out of my system. So, feel free to answer or not and, certainly feel free to post your own thoughts on IJ's end.
2slickdpdx
I'm not a deep thinker about the work. However, I loved it and grew to really care about the characters that he destroyed. I almost hate him for that.
3dchaikin
I'm jealous at the purity of your response. I'm so ambivalent...I mean the book is amazing, a complete wow. It's embedding itself into my psyche. But, I have no idea how I feel about about it.
4Sutpen
1:
Glad you finished it. Like slick, I like the book a lot. I'm going to try to run through those questions and add what I can...
1. This is the one I'm least sure about. Pemulis says it's about the DMZ in that scene, and, given his mention of "where we got it," you could assume it's something about that. Now, am I misremembering here, or did Pemulis get the DMZ from the Antitois brothers? Maybe Pemulis heard what happened to the brothers and is worried? Another possibility is that the DMZ is gone, and Pemulis is worried because of that. More on that later...
2. I'm not sure. I take "her" to refer to Avril, and maybe "do it" means 'show her the Entertainment'? Because the reason the AFR is torturing him is presumably to get him to tell them where it is, since he's the guy mailing out all the copies. Avril might have been the last step in his plan of taking revenge on her and her lovers, because he seems to blame all that stuff for Himself's suicide. Maybe he told them where it is and is sort of begging them not to let her off.
3. The most convincing explanation I've seen is that Hal's problems are caused by the DMZ, which is stolen and administered to him by the wraith as a desperate measure to try to counteract the mold he ate as a child (the mold had mold growing on it; DMZ is synthesized from a mold that only grows on other molds). It's Himself's last-ditch effort to get Hal to actually feel things and communicate honestly and earnestly. (It turns out that he succeeds...sort of. Hal ends up feeling genuine emotion, which we see in his inner monologue in the novel's first section, but he loses his ability to communicate). This ties in to the Whataburger, where Hal will play Ortho Stice, who is being controlled by the wraith--Hal gets to interface genuinely with his father at long last.
4. Dunno. That this was the last ETA section didn't seem significant to me.
5. No, I honestly do not believe that there's any meaningless stuff in the book. I think it's all there on purpose, for a reason. Wallace said as much when he was alive, and I have no reason to doubt the claim, having read the book.
Glad you finished it. Like slick, I like the book a lot. I'm going to try to run through those questions and add what I can...
1. This is the one I'm least sure about. Pemulis says it's about the DMZ in that scene, and, given his mention of "where we got it," you could assume it's something about that. Now, am I misremembering here, or did Pemulis get the DMZ from the Antitois brothers? Maybe Pemulis heard what happened to the brothers and is worried? Another possibility is that the DMZ is gone, and Pemulis is worried because of that. More on that later...
2. I'm not sure. I take "her" to refer to Avril, and maybe "do it" means 'show her the Entertainment'? Because the reason the AFR is torturing him is presumably to get him to tell them where it is, since he's the guy mailing out all the copies. Avril might have been the last step in his plan of taking revenge on her and her lovers, because he seems to blame all that stuff for Himself's suicide. Maybe he told them where it is and is sort of begging them not to let her off.
3. The most convincing explanation I've seen is that Hal's problems are caused by the DMZ, which is stolen and administered to him by the wraith as a desperate measure to try to counteract the mold he ate as a child (the mold had mold growing on it; DMZ is synthesized from a mold that only grows on other molds). It's Himself's last-ditch effort to get Hal to actually feel things and communicate honestly and earnestly. (It turns out that he succeeds...sort of. Hal ends up feeling genuine emotion, which we see in his inner monologue in the novel's first section, but he loses his ability to communicate). This ties in to the Whataburger, where Hal will play Ortho Stice, who is being controlled by the wraith--Hal gets to interface genuinely with his father at long last.
4. Dunno. That this was the last ETA section didn't seem significant to me.
5. No, I honestly do not believe that there's any meaningless stuff in the book. I think it's all there on purpose, for a reason. Wallace said as much when he was alive, and I have no reason to doubt the claim, having read the book.
5dchaikin
#4 Sutpen - wow, I missed a lot of this. (Where was I when I should have catching all this stuff?!) I need to process. Wonderful post, by the way. Thanks!
6slickdpdx
3: Thank you for the generous response.
4-1: Definitely the Antitois in my recollection too.
4-1: Definitely the Antitois in my recollection too.
7QuentinTom
>3 dchaikin: Thank you indeed. I agree, nothing is random, everything is there for a reason, including the appearance of randomness.
Am I totally barking up the wrong tree here? But I was tantalised by the suggestions towards the end (when the kids are in the cartridge rooms watching cartridges together, perhaps), that Hal is the only person who has seen The Entertainment and survived? and that this was perhaps the purpose of the Entertainment's creation in the first place, the father's gift to the son, to awaken him out of his torpor? Is this perhaps the reason for Hal's inability to communicate in the first section - the shock of seeing the entertainment and surviving?
Am I totally barking up the wrong tree here? But I was tantalised by the suggestions towards the end (when the kids are in the cartridge rooms watching cartridges together, perhaps), that Hal is the only person who has seen The Entertainment and survived? and that this was perhaps the purpose of the Entertainment's creation in the first place, the father's gift to the son, to awaken him out of his torpor? Is this perhaps the reason for Hal's inability to communicate in the first section - the shock of seeing the entertainment and surviving?
8Sutpen
7:
I totally agree that the purpose of the Entertainment was to coax some real emotion out of Hal, but I'm afraid I don't buy that Hal ever saw it. If you feel like excerpting some evidence, I'd be interested in seeing it.
I totally agree that the purpose of the Entertainment was to coax some real emotion out of Hal, but I'm afraid I don't buy that Hal ever saw it. If you feel like excerpting some evidence, I'd be interested in seeing it.
10dchaikin
I missed this too, from wikipedia - "The text indicates that Hal and Gately dig up the grave of Himself (under the supervision of John N.R. Wayne) in search of the master copy."
sigh...I'm kind of embarrassed and discouraged by how much I missed.
sigh...I'm kind of embarrassed and discouraged by how much I missed.
11Sutpen
9:
Well we know the master copy was taken by someone, because in Gately's vision, Hal holds up Himself's head and mouths "too late." The package sent to the medical attache was postmarked in Phoenix, AZ, so who else could it be? There are at least a couple other geographical hints that point toward Orin, but I can't think of them right now. I'll dig into my notes later if you're still unconvinced. Orin is a total Himself-fanatic, as revealed in his conversations with Hal, and he seems to be targeting people who didn't like J.O. Incandenza, and/or contributed to the misery that led to his suicide (in Orin's mind, anyway. Aside from the attache, who was potentially involved in one of Avril's affairs, those Berkley film critics get hit too). Whether Orin's actions are influenced by the wraith is up for debate, but I don't think that influence is necessary to explain why Orin would do what he did (or what I allege he did, haha), particularly because the digging up of the body is probably what released the wraith in the first place, and that action took place before the wraith's influence would have been a factor (remember the note on Quebec burial practices, and how they leave a hole in the coffin to let the soul escape).
10:
No, don't be discouraged! You definitely would have picked that up if you'd read the first 30 pages again after you finished. Part of that stuff is discussed at the very start of the book, when it doesn't make any sense, and it's unlikely it'll stick in your head. Later, when Gately has that vision, you'll only make the connection if you remember Hal's memory from the very beginning. Dude, I've read this book about three times. I didn't recognize this stuff on the first read. I just remembered this guy's page, which summarizes the "off-screen" action as well as I've seen it represented:
http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/ijend
Well we know the master copy was taken by someone, because in Gately's vision, Hal holds up Himself's head and mouths "too late." The package sent to the medical attache was postmarked in Phoenix, AZ, so who else could it be? There are at least a couple other geographical hints that point toward Orin, but I can't think of them right now. I'll dig into my notes later if you're still unconvinced. Orin is a total Himself-fanatic, as revealed in his conversations with Hal, and he seems to be targeting people who didn't like J.O. Incandenza, and/or contributed to the misery that led to his suicide (in Orin's mind, anyway. Aside from the attache, who was potentially involved in one of Avril's affairs, those Berkley film critics get hit too). Whether Orin's actions are influenced by the wraith is up for debate, but I don't think that influence is necessary to explain why Orin would do what he did (or what I allege he did, haha), particularly because the digging up of the body is probably what released the wraith in the first place, and that action took place before the wraith's influence would have been a factor (remember the note on Quebec burial practices, and how they leave a hole in the coffin to let the soul escape).
10:
No, don't be discouraged! You definitely would have picked that up if you'd read the first 30 pages again after you finished. Part of that stuff is discussed at the very start of the book, when it doesn't make any sense, and it's unlikely it'll stick in your head. Later, when Gately has that vision, you'll only make the connection if you remember Hal's memory from the very beginning. Dude, I've read this book about three times. I didn't recognize this stuff on the first read. I just remembered this guy's page, which summarizes the "off-screen" action as well as I've seen it represented:
http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/ijend
12dchaikin
oh! You rock, Sutpen!
I do buy that about Orin now, and I'm less discouraged. These clues are presented in ways I could not possible catch with one read.
I also found some answers here: http://dfan.org/jest.txt This is a link you had posted awhile ago in the Questions thread, but I had skipped the post earlier to avoid spoilers.
I do buy that about Orin now, and I'm less discouraged. These clues are presented in ways I could not possible catch with one read.
I also found some answers here: http://dfan.org/jest.txt This is a link you had posted awhile ago in the Questions thread, but I had skipped the post earlier to avoid spoilers.
13Sutpen
12:
Good, good. You're certainly right that you can't hope to get everything out of the book in one read. That's not such an unusual characteristic for a work of serious fiction, but one thing that makes IJ unique is that some of the stuff that's hard to process after a single reading is basic narrative stuff. This doesn't bother me, but I can understand why some people might object to it. The way I view it is that Wallace was requiring that readers work a little bit to get that conventional satisfaction from the book...which seems in keeping with IJ's stance on easy entertainment.
Good, good. You're certainly right that you can't hope to get everything out of the book in one read. That's not such an unusual characteristic for a work of serious fiction, but one thing that makes IJ unique is that some of the stuff that's hard to process after a single reading is basic narrative stuff. This doesn't bother me, but I can understand why some people might object to it. The way I view it is that Wallace was requiring that readers work a little bit to get that conventional satisfaction from the book...which seems in keeping with IJ's stance on easy entertainment.
14QuentinTom
excellent point.
