Lizzie plunges a second time

(I get by with a lot of help from my friends.)
Here's a link to thread 1: Lizzie Takes the Plunge.
MOST SIGNIFICANT from JANUARY through MAY (in the order that I read them)
Wolf Hall
Essays of Elia
40,000 in Gehenna
The Talisman Ring
The Spare Room
290482::The Brontes Went to Woolworth's
The Unknown Ajax
Crossing to Safety
Cutting for Stone*****!
Grand Sophy
The Education of Henry Adams
Where the Bluebird Sings to the Lemonade Springs
(I found a lot to like.)

Reading Continues in June
36. Invader - science fiction, *Foreigner* series ~ Indeed, nadiin, one wishes to plunge rignt into book 3
37. The Gentlewomen* - VMC - quietly disturbing - WWII in an English stately home
38. Bath Tangle - the tangling is overlong, but the untangling is more fun than a rout party
39. Infinite Jest - monumental, funny, incredibly, incredibly sad - I hope to live long enough to reread it in 10 years or so **********!
40. The Hills at Home - WHY didn't I know about this charmer sooner?
41. Burmese Lessons: A True Love Story* - too much love; not enough Burma
42. The Gobi Desert* - Armchair travel to an exotic location in a time long gone

July
43. In the Wood - first mystery in a new series - I liked it
44. Gilead - deeply sweet and joyfully elegiac
45. Death's Half Acre - not the best entry in a favorite mystery series

Oh hooray, I am the first to welcome your new thread!
Janet

Gotcha! I'm happy to be the second one here. There's a lot of these new threads coming up lately. I'm glad to see a couple of my favorites on your "significant reads" list.

I thought your "horror" theory was brilliant; I just don't read enough horror to be able to comment intelligently on it. I'm trying to get into Mystery/Thriller mode for the summer. So far, my Tana French books are working well for me.

I'm greeting you! Of course I am supposed to be hard at work.

Ditto. Which came out "Dotto" the first time. Sigh.

Welcome to the multi-thread club, Peggy!

Thank you kindly, friends! (I could easily sign myself "Dotto" just any day!) I wish, I wish that I could confine myself to one book at a time so that I'd have something to say here more often. Alas. That's not the way I work. I wish I read faster or more often so that I could get to Tana French. Alas, again. (I have been working, Lucy, for a whole hour and a half! That's it for today.)

#7: I'm the same way - I usually have 6-7 books going at once, which means I don't finish any one of them very swiftly.

Found your new thread. Meant to be going to bed, but LT surfing instead!

Found you!

I'm happy to be found, Genny and Jenn! Not much going on here though. I seem to have picked up my husband's cold cum sore throat cum laryngitis, and if so, I'll have plenty of reading time just as soon as I can stay awake to do it.

Oh no! Sorry to hear you're not feeling well - get better soon (but enjoy the extra reading time)!

Hope you are feeling better SOONEST!

Sorry about the laryngitis. Just got over a nasty bout of pharyngitis myself. Get well!

Adding my good wishes for speedy recovery, and hope you are not so unwell that you can't get some reading done.

Get well soon, Peggy!

Found the new thread - hope you feel better soon!

Thank you very much for your kind wishes. A sinus infection? It seems not to be what Dear Husband suffered from a couple of weeks ago, but languishing on the sofa with a book is about all I'm up for.

INVADER by C.J. Cherryh
This is book 2 in the *Foreigner* series, and if Cherryh is famous for anything, it's for her ability to create truly interesting and alien aliens. The atevi have to be some of her best - giant-sized (a human male looks like an 8 year-old beside them), black-skinned, golden-eyed. Our hero, Bren Cameron, is the paidhi, the only person allowed on atevi soil because he is the only one who has learned enough about their language and mores to communicate without screwing the atevi/human alliance royally. In this one the spaceship that left the humans on the atevi planet 200 years earlier has returned. The timing is rather bad as political upsets are stirring things up on both the atevi mainland and the human island.
If I have a quarrel with the book, it is that Cherryh gives us too much of Bren's internal confusion. He has a lot to be confused about: he's recovering from a wound, his girlfriend has dumped him, a second paihdi has fouled things up with atevi factions opposing Bren's sponsor, his female security guard has propositioned him, he doesn't know whom to trust beyond his intimates, he's lonely, he has made some mistakes in his understanding of the atevi.......Cutting out some of the redundancies could have reduced the size of this one by ¼, but I'm willing to read the extra for the privilege of reading the rest.
(edited to get that fraction right!)

Hope you're soon feeling better!

Popping in to say hello. Hope you're feeling better soon - or well enough to enjoy some more reading, but not well enough to have to do other things?

Ah, Jenn, that's the perfect illness, isn't it? I, on the other hand, don't have any problem lolling about to read while not doing other things when I'm in the best of health.
Meanwhile, I'm in an attract-attract dilemma. Feeling the need for a mystery, I started In the Woods, forgetting that a copy of Deborah Crombie's Necessary as Blood is wending its way toward me from pbs. I've waited so long for *NaB* and been so good about not buying it that I can hardly stand not to dive in when it gets here. But now *ItW* is good and I don't want to stop it. I submit that this is the perfect problem in an imperfect world.
ETA: I'm pretty much well except for a cough. Thank you all for caring.

Glad you're feeling better. I also just started In the Woods. I'm about 60 pages in, I guess. I like the team of Cassie and Rob. French is good with words. I think she's brave with her first book to have taken on a male first-person narrator. Don't you think it could just as easily have been switched around and worked out as female? I don't know. These are the sorts of things that fly through my mind when I'm reading--why did the author choose to do it that way? I can't seem to help myself.

Peg and Becky, if you like In the Woods well enough, you might consider going directly into The Likeness which is narrated by Cassie. There was a slight passing of time, but it read like one long book told from two different points of view. The story line is completely different but she does a lot of referring back to Rob and Operation Vestal. Good stuff!

But I'm wondering why French didn't make the child who survived in the woods a female and then later the female detective narrator--not Cassie as narrator, but a woman survivor of The Woods. To make the narrator-survivor-detective a male was a deliberate choice, and I just wonder why she did it that way. Maybe the "why" of it becomes clear as the book continues. Dunno. As I said, I'm not very far into it yet.

I must catch up with Deborah Crombie, among others - I bought a cheap hardback (special offer to promote author) of the book before Necessary as Blood - how many years has it been out in paperback now? - and have that one out of the library.

Elkie, do get to Crombie! I think that she has grown over the years and I do like the continuing characters very much. I'd classify her as a milder E. George, but with characters who are a lot more realistic. You would do better to go back a little farther in the series for a start although not all the way back until you're sold. At least, that's what I think. I'm not sure how well she does with things British since she's not, but I'm not either, so I'm sure that things slip past me.
Becky, I also wonder about the choice to begin with a male narrator. If you figure it out, let me know. (Maybe it began as a writing assignment of some kind.) (And Donna, I just added The Likeness to my wishlist at pbs with a wait time of 10 weeks - which I can live with unless I meet the book in a weak moment at Sam's.
And I'm thrilled that The Lacuna won the Orange Prize! I haven't read it, but I really, really, really enjoy Kingsolver and I simply enjoyed Wolf Hall. I'm sure you get the distinction.

>26 LizzieD:. and 22-24.

Well, Peggy, I was reading an interview with French about her novel, because I enjoy stories about writers and how they write, how they get their ideas, how their books come about, etc. You can find the interview here.

She was 35 years old in 2008 when In the Woods was published. She says in the interview, and also I've read in biographical pieces about he,r that her background is theater. No mention of writing. So what did she do, just sit down one day and decide to write a novel? Evidently. The interviewer asks basically the same question I did: "I was strongly impressed by the manner in which you 'channeled' Rob Ryan's psyche during In the Woods. Did you have any difficulty with creating and describing a male character on such a deeply personal level." Now of course male writers write first person female characters and female writers write male characters--this is done frequently enough. I guess my point was, this is her first novel, plus she doesn't seem to have much of a writing background behind her. So how did she do this?

Her answer for the interviewer was that to write in Rob Ryan's voice wasn't a conscious choice--he just "showed up." She also says "there are no such entities as 'men' or 'women'; there are individuals . . ." to which I say, "Bunk." However, another comment she made did make some sense to me--or the interviewer made it for her in the introduction to the interview: that French's acting background was helpful to her in helping her create the voices of her characters. That makes sense. The other, not so much.

One other thing I'll say about authors and interviews. Writers make things up--that's what they do for a living. I remember reading an interview with Stephen King one time (oh, him again) where he said he took four days off a year: Christmas, his birthday, the Fourth of July, and I can't remember the other one. All the other days of the year, he writes. Later I read where he said that wasn't true--that he made it up to have something to say to the guy interviewing him. So I guess I take these writer interviews with a grain of salt. French describes her process, and it's interesting and of course may be exactly the way she does it, but I'm not sure I buy it 100%. Whatever--it makes an interesting story.

I've read the first 8 books or so in Crombie's series, and I think she's much better than Elizabeth George who I liked for a while and then I hated one she wrote.

I'm pretty much with you there, Elkie, (having gone back and read your post correctly) except that I continue to give E. George a chance. I have to say that Barbara and Helen were my favorite of her characters, and while I became quite involved with all of them, I was never far form letting disbelief soak through. I don't know quite why posh Brits shouldn't be involved in police work, but it does seem something of an anachronism. On the other hand, I never had any trouble at all wtih Gemma, Duncan, and crew. I think I've read all of the series and am vastly eager for the new one!
Thanks for the interview with French, Becky. I agree with the actress/writer insights. My question is whether I actually think that she is channelling a male well and how I'd know. I'm not far enough in to it to be aware yet of how messed up he is. Do actual men say that she got him right?

>29 LizzieD:. I don't know, Peggy. But I grew up with three brothers, numerous male cousins, have lived with a very "male" husband for 37 years (my best friend who has done his best to teach me to "speak guy"), and have a 30-year-old son. It's just goofy to say that male/female doesn't exist. Maybe in her world the boundaries between the two are blurred, but not in mine. I haven't read a review by a man who discusses her male narrator. I'm up to about page 150, and as I was reading last night, I thought this Rob Ryan fellow was sounding more and more like the voice of Tana French. That's just my take on it.

Not that I'm particularly bothered by it, by the way. I'm enjoying the book quite a lot. It's just something I noted, because for myself, I think I would need a very good reason to write from the first-person male point of view.

My only gripe with the Crombie series is that Gemma moves from an ordinary working class area of east London, the sort of place a police officer and single mum might have been able to afford at that time, to much more expensive Islington - now of course they've moved to Notting Hill but that is on two incomes (though public sector wages....) I want to see more of London featured in fiction, not just the areas everyone has heard of.

I did enjoy Gemma's own place too, and I'm glad that the friend, Harriet?, continues to be a part of her life. Didn't they house-sit the place in Islington or some such arrangement? I'm the total, ignorant Anglophile who will eat up anything London - never having been there and never expecting to go. (And I can't tell you how sad I am to write that.)
Becky, I bow to your male-orientation. I had a father and have a husband, both of whom are largely mysteries to me. I think it's the brothers that must make the difference. I guess that I believe that "human" is a more inclusive category than "male human," but that said, I wouldn't think that the larger would be all that helpful to a writer.

Have enjoyed the discussions but two more mystery series to add to the wishlist?!?

#18 I haven't read any Cherryh yet but I have a copy of The Faded Sun Trilogy in my TBR pile. Are you going to read the rest of the Foreigner series?

Indeed, and they're quite long series as well, I think Crombie's up to about 13 books and Elizabeth George's series contains 16 novels and a volume of short stories. They are both Americans who write a series featuring police detectives set in Britain - a bit of an odd sub-genre on which a lot has been said online, not always very kind - but Crombie doesn't get as many things wrong - and she has a bit more regard for realism - her male police officer character is quite posh and lives in Hampstead at the start of the series, but is not actually an aristocrat. I'm a bit surprised looking at the list that I seem to have read the first 10 Elizabeth George books before I got fed up, as I didn't even realise there were that many. I've read the first 9 Crombie so am happy to learn I have 4 to catch up with.

Heather, if you like - I guess mid-value mysteries: not cozy but not tremendously violent or noir either - Crombie and George are must-reads. I ate up the George ones through about Playing for the Ashes before they began to pall. I hope to go back and reread just to see whether they stand up for me now. I haven't read The Faded Sun Trilogy, but my Cherryh-loving friends reread it regularly, I think. I will work my way through the *Foreigners,* but first I intend to read Regenesis which I've finally obtained. I believe I heard somebody remark once about the massive piles of books and the relatively small amount of reading time. That's very true.
Luci, does that mean that you haven't read Dreaming of the Bones yet? It was my first and was her break-out book, I think. I immediately tracked down all the older ones, and I think she gets better and better.

THE GENTLEWOMEN by Laura Talbot
I very much enjoyed this dissection of the British class system as it was disintegrating during the second world war. The gentlewomen are not particularly gentle but some of them are exceedingly genteel. I did review it and do recommend it to readers here.

Sounds like my kind of read. Nice review too!

#38 I read and thumbed your review Peggy. I'll have to check The Gentlewomen out. I just finished The Remains of the Day and they seem like they may share some similarities, especially life seen from the eyes of the servant class (in this case, a butler) in Britain after WWII. Thanks for the recommendation.

Good review Peggy - will look out for that one.

Thank you for kind words. I think the book is one of VMC's little treasures.

Yes, I've read Dreaming of the Bones - it was a discussion book on my online crime fiction reading group and I loved it.

Nice review of Gentlewomen. I am adding it to my list!

I am adding The Gentlewomen to the BlackHole as well. Thanks for the review and recommendation, Peggy!

#37 I like the phrase 'mid-value mysteries'! I don't like very violent crime/mystery books. The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo was a bit too violent for me (although I appreciate that the author was doing this (I think) to make a valid point about violence towards women). I only went on to read book 2 because my husband promised me that it was a lot less violent; I'm not sure whether I could bring myself to reread the first book again.

Crombie and George series duly added to the wishlist. No idea when I will get round to those - the wishlsit length is getting ridiculous!

Nice review of The Gentlewomen - another one on the list :-)

I continue to beam my thanks.
Heather, the mystery readers at my other community tried for a long time to come up with a moniker to describe books between cozy and hard-boiled or noir. We never did it, but we had fun comparing categories and where we put books. (This is a group of women, mostly, who have moved from site to site over a period of 10 or 12 years, starting with TheReadersVine in the late 90's. That categorization went on at present incarnation -1. I wish I could still put my hands on it.)

Glad you liked Invader. The best books are yet to come, IMO :)

Glad to see you back, Susan, and that's what everybody says. I just can't read all Cherryh all the time - which seems like what it would take to catch up. I really, really want to get to Regenesis, but I'm spread too thinly.

On 4_Mystery_Addicts, my email crime fiction discussion group, we use the term Splashers for people who like books in between or who read a real mixture of hardboiled/noir and cosy. I tend towards the darker end of the spectrum myself, but I'm a bit wary of the more extreme books - but I tend to feel it depnds a bit on how it's done.

Peggy

Congratulations on your wonderful review for The Gentlewoman. My thumbs up was #13.

Splashers, eh? We talked about those mid-ones a lot. They are realistic to a point; it may be that they deal with a nicer class of people than the gritty. (That was said a little tongue-in-cheek.) I've tended to go darker and darker as I've read fewer and fewer. Friend larrryr has a huge collection of the dark side.
Thank you Linda, (and Luci too because I don't think I thanked you earlier) for liking my review. I genuinely appreciate the kindness.
And since I'm rambling on here, I'll note that I progress in Infinite Jest. It is truly a sad book, but I laugh out loud and am ashamed when one of the major characters is reassured that he may be able to use "prosfeces" for his ruined shoulder. I'm also liking Richard Holmes's biography of Shelley a lot. I guess I had some vague notion of his radical politics and militant atheism. Shelley: the Pursuit is sharpening my focus. 700+ pages may not be too many after all. Finally, I continue to enjoy In the Woods for a little lightness (!)(?) ((I begin to feel like Stephen King)).......well, and Bath Tangle.

BATH TANGLE by Georgette Heyer
Nothing to add about this one except to wonder why I deprived myself of regular doses of Heyer for years and years. I'm sure I'm a much jollier person when I have one in hand.

Quick! Somebody get Peggy another Heyer book :)

I know - Georgette Heyer is like chocolate and ice cream and Swedish Meatballs. You just need some in your life on a regular basis.

All is well. I have These Old Shades out and ready.
I know I shouldn't do this, but I can't help it. Here is an e-mail from an assistant principal at my old school forwarded by a friend who is still teaching. He has less self-awareness than a woman who sent out something similar the last year I taught and ended by saying, "You should have more to do than correct the grammar on this email."

Hope all has went well with your exams. I know that many of you are ready to leave and get started on your summer plans. Before you go there are a couple of things that has to be taken care of before departing. I will be concerned with your book inventory.
Here is the procedure that I expect will happen when I come to do your inventory in the classroom.
I will ask for a teacher list of all the books in your
classroom (Old and Current). You will give me either all the teachers individual list or you will give me a summary sheet (ATTACHED) of all the teachers that has books in your room with their names listed.
I will then tally those list (if needed) to see how many books there are total of each title. I will then count all of the books to confirm that those numbers are correct. I will then sign off on the teacher/teachers check off list that are there. I will keep that copy as I will need them later to sign off on the check out lists.
Back in my office after completing all the classrooms, I will sign off teachers checkoff sheet based on the inventory sheets I collected in each classroom. If I don't have an inventory sheet on you along with your book fees, etc., I will not sign off on your sheet until I have one.
If you do not have textbook or were not issued any, then on a full plain sheet of paper you should note that and get it to me.

Everybody got that?
Tell me how sorry I was to retire!

OH, MY EYES!!!!

Ouch. I'm surprised that this work is being carried out by someone with a management title, it sounds like it could be done by support staff (and I bet many of them would write better as well).

#56 That's incredibly bad! And so unclear!

I would have been tempted to send a return message:

Huh??

That is so painful. I don't think I would have been able to keep myself from editing and returning it for corrections.

My grandfather, who only went to school through the 8th grade, was a stickler for grammar. He used to send me letters in the mail with purposeful errors, and expect me to correct his mistakes and return it with my reply.

OK, that is truly terrible.

Jenn, your post (#61) reminds me of my grandfather. He left school at the age of 14 to become an apprentice worker on the railroad. My mother was sick a lot as a child, and she and her mother would get quarantined in the house and her father would live elsewhere. Consequently he typed her a lot of letters, which she saved. Not only is his typing flawless, but so is his spelling and grammar. Peggy, I think what you're showing there is more an example of "lazy" rather than "stupid," although perhaps I'm giving the individual more credit than he deserves.

Actually, he is quite a bright man - simply uneducated even though he has a MA in education. In my hometown lack of standard English usage is not a barrier to good employment. I'll rant later about what the school system has added to this traditional attitude.

When you read it aloud it sounds very much as if he might have used one of these new speak-and-write programs..... it sounds exactly the way someone, trying hard to explain something convoluted, might SAY it...... it's fascinating in a certain gruesome way ..... it 'sounds' entirely spoken to me. Of course, that means he doesn't recognize the difference between spoken and written language -- that even if that device captures his ideas, he still needs to edit.

The problem is that he can't edit. You're right, Lucy; that is the way he has spoken all his life, and he doesn't "get" that it's not acceptable and doesn't know what acceptable might be.
Here's my rant. For at least 20 years N.C. has tested writing in 4th, 8th, and 10th grades statewide. For most of those years, they did not include mechanics in their scoring. What that meant in poor school systems like ours is that teachers simply stopped teaching mechanics because it was not tested. I was told by the county supervisor when I started my final round of teaching English, "I don't want to see grammar books in your room." When I saw a specific problem, I was to address it in a bellringer and then move on to the important stuff. A sentence like "He's cloths was expense," was not unusual - and that from a very bright 12th grade honors student. Now they are beginning to try to address spelling again, but the teachers who know something about the language are thin on the ground here.
It took me a year to realize that when I marked a sentence fragment, kids had no idea what I meant; another semester to realize that "no verb" or "no subject" had no meaning. I'll stop now.

"uneducated even though he has an MA in education"

Peggy, what does that even mean? Does it mean that because he was an education major, he was given a total pass? As I think I wrote on another thread (or it might have been this one), my very worst students in my writing classes were education majors. This CANNOT be acceptible, and yet, somehow, it is--we make excuses for it all day long. We are failing the next generation. It makes me weep.

I think that with this man, the answer lies more in his university than in any neglect of the education department. (Obviously, it's a local university; it was told to tighten up its writing instruction during their last accreditation review.) I didn't know how to be effective as a high school teacher - especially when I was one of only two English teachers in the school who addressed problems in writing. Teaching on the 4X4 block, I had kids one semester. I took most of that semester to convince even a few that I was not crazy. Really. Nobody else had ever corrected their writing. What was my problem? Then they were gone to other teachers who wouldn't (or possibly couldn't) correct their writing. (When an English teacher says, "Had you went home before they come?" she is not likely to teach her students anything helpful about the language.) It takes a long, long time to change language patterns. I also weep and throw up my hands.........and I must say, that having read posts from booklovers at several places on the Internet, the problem is not just here in N.C.

No, Peggy, you're absolutely right--the problem certainly isn't confined to a particular geographic area. I have no idea how it's going to change, to be improved. But I do remember my students in Freshman Comp who (some of them) appreciated my comments on their papers. You can tell when you get something right with a student--the way their eyes light up. I guess you just have to live for moments like that.

P.S. I went to what I thought at the time (and what I still think) was a pretty good public school. Yet I can remember my dad saying to me, "I don't know how a student gets to the seventh grade without knowing the parts of speech!" That comment shattered me--and has obviously stayed with me. So. . . nothing new under the sun, I guess, only I think things are getting worse as the years go by.

My children now attend a public Charter school. They are learning all the parts of speech in Kindergarten. My daughter started writing short paragraphs the first week of school. She would come home and sing a little song about the sounds the letters make and the rules for using each sound. My son who will be going into 6th grade can diagram a sentence nearly as fast as I can read it. I have to say, it nearly makes me weep with joy. A world of difference from our neighborhood school.

I can't read a newspaper anymore. My fingers itch for a red pencil. I have also noticed many more grammar errors in new books the last five years. Anyone else noticed that?

The crazy thing about teaching to tests (OK, one of the crazy things) is that if they are not teaching grammar because grammar is not tested in the writing section, how are these children getting admitted to universities that require essays? Do they suppose that someday when the student graduates and has a job that no writing will be required? My husband is an engineer. He spends most of his days writing reports. Long, technical reports. I'm certain that if the grammar were bad, he would be held in much lower esteem by his peers.

Oh boy, you really got me started...

A great read comes to mind Eats, Shoots and Leaves. Hilarious. Who would have thought that learning grammar could be hilarious?

Jenn, I have also noticed alot more grammar errors in new books and have wondered why. Have the publishers cut back on their editing budgets? I must say it's one of my pet peeves these days.

#71: I must say it's one of my pet peeves these days.

Mine too! When I was reading Greg Mortenson's new book, Stones Into Schools, I kept wondering where the editor was. The text of the book had numerous errors and there was a case where the caption to one of the pictures did not match the text in the book.

Have they cut back on editors, or are the editors less capable? I just don't know.

Stasia, that's not good news about Stones Into Schools. At times, I had to force myself to read Three Cups of Tea because the writing was so bad.

Jenn, I hadn't really thought about it as the editors being less capable--that's kind of scary.

Maybe we are entering a neo-medieaval period of flux and change? Perhaps the spelling and grammar and cribbing are all de rigeur for such a time? There is always an educated class that clings to 'correct' forms of yore, while something new evolves? An example: Alot as one word has almost become, by dint of usage, 'acceptable' - I don't like it, but I see that at a certain point it is pointless to keep nattering about it.

And yes, I am being a devil's advocate -- I don't necessarily support that idea, I am pitching it as a possibility however, brought on by the true mixing of world cultures that is happening now because of speedy travel and the internet. English, precisely because it is the most flexible and sponge-like of all languages, will, I have no doubt, become the universal language eventually, but in the process it will undergo huge changes, I expect. And yes, that is an idea of which I do support the likelihood. I always taught a unit about the history of English to my adult basic writing students -- using that McNeil PBS film and it is always a HUGE hit with ALL of them -- they are stunned every time. No idea of how language evolves and becomes and interestingly, they love it.

(Please note the archaic and strictly correct usage in the penultimate sentence.)

I read science fiction because I like thinking of the big big picture -- and maybe there is something bigger going on that will bear fruit later on..... language, to live, does undergo times of stability and times of change.

Of course, I was brought up to 'argue' this way at our dinner table...... and the wilder the supposition the better.

>75 sibylline: Have you ever read any of Suzette Haden Elgin's science fiction? She is a linguist and the way she weaves concepts about language into her work is fascinating. Start with Native Tongue.

>76 ronincats: It's on the wishlist, thank you!

>75 sibylline:. Sib, your may be right, and the first thing to be completely gone will be apostrophes. Or should I say, "apostrophe's." There is the strangest thing going on now with people using an apostrophe to form a simple plural. It drives me batty. (Well, that's not the word I want to use, but it's not my thread so I'll show some restraint.)

I would welcome the demise of the apostrophe.

I'll have to take a look at the McNeil PBS film mentioned. It sounds very interesting.

I would welcome the demise of the apostrophe.

Why? I'm just curious. Because you're certainly not alone, but I don't get it. Or rather, Because youre certainly not alone, I dont get it.

#79 We were taught very little grammar in English classes in the UK but I did pick up apostrophes, so I actually quite like them!

>79 nittnut: It's called The Story of English and has an accompanying book that is good too. I see in the Touchstones (first time it's ever been useful to me) the main author listed as Robert McCrum. I think for many people language has no 'context' -- they've never thought about 'where it comes from' so they were truly wowed and, I always felt, more respectful about the whole thing, after that unit, which I would do fairly early on, about when the first enthusiasm for larnin' was wearing off.... late October, early November...... I would have a class devoted to having the students come up with sentences that were incomprehensible. Fun!

No apostrophes. hmmmmm. Thats a challenging idea. Ill (ok there is a problem with that one) have to think it over. Ive a feeling were (uh oh) stuck with them for now. But that would in fact be a fun way to teach the necessity, now wouldnt it -- the confusion that would arise without them! I love it!

#78 I have a theory about the spread of the strange practice of using apostrophes to form plurals. I think it may have something to do with our increasingly regular use of acronymns and abbreviations as everyday nouns. I first noticed this tendency to use apostrophes for the plural with words like CD and MP (member of parliament) about 20 years or more ago - I think people had an aversion to sticking an 's' on the end because with the upper case letters it looked a bit odd, so we got CD's and MP's and so forth, and then this rapidly spread to other words - helped along by the greengrocers of course who seem particularly fond of sprinkling in extra apostrophes wherever they can.

The alternative theory is that people increasingly just panic and stick one in more or less anywhere when an 's' comes at the end of a word, as they have not been taught how or when to use them.

My supervisor for my doctoral thesis wrote a book on the history of punctuation, called Pause and Effect, mostly about the development of the practice in medieval times. It is certainly helpful to remember how much language changes over time, in both its spoken and written forms - sometimes these changes are precipitated by rapid and dramatic social changes. Usually the spoken form evolves gradually, while the written form remains fixed and more conservative until a time of upheaval leads to new written conventions emerging (eg after the Viking raids on western Europe towards the end of the first millenium AD, the written form of Irish changed considerably, catching up with changes in the spoken language which had probably been evolving for centuries).

Sorry, going back into research student mode there - but I do find these matters fascinating. It should be possible to recognise and indeed to celebrate language's capacity to change, adapt and absorb new words and new forms of speech without giving up on a concern to help people to understand how language works and how to make best use of their own language to communicate clearly and effectively.

I agree with the above posts in that I'd have a difficult time NOT correcting and sending back the letter (it made me mentally throw up a little bit), there do seem to be more printed errors than before (I just corrected a library book this morning - yes, I'm one of those people), and that rampant, jokey, almost proud ignorance of proper writing and grammar is becoming more widespread, especially in "management" positions. Ugh. It makes me so angry! How on earth did these people get to where they are in life without these basics?!?

You are all singing my song - and it's a sad one! I do understand that a living language changes, but is there a line somewhere? Do we eventually have to read "He's cloths was expense," without a shudder? Placing the line is the problem for me. (Lucy! I too taught a couple of weeks of English language history and used some of The Story of English as a help. Kids always responded well to it.)
I also taught grammar through diagramming for six weeks or so each semester. Kids did not respond well to it. They liked all the cutesy little strategies I used, but they refused to learn the material, which I had organized clearly and well if I do say so myself. Most of them failed the grammar test at the end of the unit that consisted of 24 terms to be matched to the definitions and 10 sentences illustrating basic sentence patterns. (A few always did well. One year the high score in both my classes - 95 - was earned by a Latina girl who had been speaking English for five years!) I received outraged phone calls from parents whom I usually disarmed by saying, "Mary Sue thinks that a verb modifies a noun or a pronoun." MS's mother would then yelp, "But that's just basic!" And I would say, "Yes. I know." Believe it or not, I'm finally letting all of that go.
Genny, your theory about CD's is interesting. I hadn't thought of that. Thank you!
Roni, I'll be all over Native Tongue. Thank you!
I wonder whether publishers are not hiring copy editors as the old ones die. After all, if nobody knows the difference, it's an easy place to save money.
My question is, and Becky, it's mostly to you, how can anyone teach writing if the students don't know basic grammar. I commented already on sentence fragments, but how do you convey the idea of a misplaced modifier or dangling participle if the student has no idea what those words mean?

INFINITE JEST by David Foster Wallace

I have read it for the first time. I have no wit to offer any kind of a review, but I do think that IJ is likely a work of genius. Other LT'ers, though, have been able to get some idea of it online, so I recommend that you read the long reviews if you have any interest at all in post (+) modern writing.

Great discussions on your thread Peggy! Genny, that's a really interesting theory about CD's. I see the apostrophe being used after acronyms a lot at work (we have so many) and I've actually given up correcting them because no one believes it's wrong to put them. Apostrophes after acronyms don't make me shudder in the way other plurals with an incorrect apostrophe inserted do and I think that's because I'm so used to them that CDs looks wrong and CD's now looks right.

And I went to add Native Tongue to my wishlist to discover it's already there and tagged 'Recommended by ronincats'.

B-D

#82 - Ill (ok there is a problem with that one) have to think it over LOL

I don't know how I'd live without the apostrophe myself, but I'm thinking banning its general use by the untrained might be a good idea. One egregious example I saw recently on a large billboard outside an apartment building:

RELAX, YOUR HOME

argh! How does that get past the designer, the printer, all the people who would have to see it before it was put up?

Heh heh - CD's is something I'd not thought about. I always write CDs, but only after thinking about it for longer than is strictly necessary.

I'm e-mailing this thread to my friend who teaches writing at the local JC. I think she'll be amused. I hope you don't mind. (:

I learned most of my English grammar from studying other languages, including some very basic Latin. In French you have to know how the words connect to each other to use the right verb ending, and it's quite useful sometimes knowing that in English. My secretarial course also included grammar, and to pass those exams, you probably need better English than for a lot of more academic courses.

Another reason so much written spelling and grammar looks bad now here is that people will have typed something themselves on a computer (and lack of sense about how to type and lay out, aarrgh that's another whole issue) rather than having a literate secretary do it.

>89 nittnut: So far from minding, Jenn, I'd be grateful to have her input too!
>90 elkiedee: I'm grateful to say that I learned my English grammar in the 8th grade with a real witch of a teacher who saw to it that we got it - even my grammar class at UNC-CH didn't add much to the traditional grammar. On the other hand, I valued my time as Latin teacher partly because I was able to teach the poor babies some English along the way.
I do think that literate secretaries are becoming more and more legendary; I congratulate you on your excellent course. I worked with an assistant manager once who told me with many expletives that when a college professor questioned his usage and asked how he planned to write a literate letter, he replied, "I'll have a #*()@#&*(_^%^ secretary to do that for me." (This guy never got the @(@#*(^!%@^* job, much less a (*()###^*()#T^& secretary.)

Well, newsflash on the "secretary" thing, for anyone in college today who thinks they don't need to learn to write because "I'll have a secretary." The only "secretary" anyone has in my husband's company works for the CEO. My husband is in upper management, and I'm quite sure that 20 or 30 years ago he certainly would have had a secretary--but no more. No one does. He probably spends 60% of his day writing emails--maybe more. No one uses the phone. How tough can it be to write an email--how exacting are the standards for those, you might ask? Well, when you consider that now there is a paper trail for every conversation, those emails become pretty darned important--making sure they say exactly what they're supposed to say, getting the audience right, etc. And if you can't spell? Or don't bother to use apostrophes correctly? Or your grammar is not what it ought to be? Believe me, people notice.

I know. I have a cousin who has just gotten a promotion at a major bank of proofing and editing the letters that go out from the complaints department, which operates directly out of the CEO's office. They have to be perfect down to the spaces between sentences and the other stuff that Luci was addressing in 91.
(I hated to mention that ass. manager for fear that I might conjure him. This was 15 or 20 years ago.) I'll also add that our church secretary criticizes our young minister because he does all of his correspondence, sermons, lessons, etc. himself.

#92 Almost all of the correspondence for my job is done by email and one thing I've noticed, aside from bad grammar and spelling, is how all letters are now very informal. I am routinely addressed by my first name by people contacting me for the first time in an official capacity. Maybe I'm just showing my age but I'm always surprised by this. I suppose it is part of a general cultural shift.

#94: Oooh, that gets to me too. Many college students these days write incredibly informal emails to me, starting them with "Hey, prof!", using way too many exclamation points, and in general not understanding that there is a difference (or should be) between the style one uses to write to one's friends and the style used to write to one's professor. I immediately respond with, "If you wish to receive a response from me in answer to your question, you will need to send me another, different, more appropriately phrased email. I do not respond to any summons that starts with 'hey!'", or some such reply. I mean, come on, really; there are some things in life up with which we should not have to put.

Amen to that. I admire your courage in responding that way. I can envision the students rolling their eyes when they get your reply.

You know, you'd be surprised at the reactions you get from being strict. I have a No Cell Phones policy in my classes: if a cell phone rings during class, everyone in the class immediately takes a pop essay quiz, no matter what we're doing (even if they're already in the middle of an exam!). It's actually happened a couple of times and both times several of the students came up to me after class and *thanked* me for the policy - most of them genuinely dislike the rudeness of others leaving on their cell phones and are willing to take the pop quiz to help prove my point!

>97 scaifea:. Brilliant. Nothing like peer pressure, too.

Just a lurker piping on on the current subject. I agree with most of the statements above except for referring to people by their first name. I do it all the time, and don't see anything wrong with it myself. If I were to email Tim Spalding today, I'd call him "Tim" as opposed to "Mr. Spalding." Maybe it is a generational thing.

As for exclamation points, that is definitely problem of mine. I get to enthusiastic sometimes...

But at least I didn't use a single one in this post. Hurray!! ...aw, shoot.

*sigh* A good college is so different from an indifferent high school. I fought the cell phone thing for years. My problem was not so much that they rang in class - although they did sometimes, and at least once the call was from the kid's mother - but with my students sitting there texting when learning was supposed to be happening. I didn't have anybody disrespect me by calling my first name, but I heard, "Don't get an attitude with me," at least a couple of times a week from 16 year-olds.
One thing that bothers me, Amber, is that corporations are apparently catering to their young employees in lots of ways that I find strange. Ten years ago I would have said that your refusing to be treated with disrespect was not only showing them your value but teaching them a life lesson. Now, I don't know.

#94 It is a cultural shift. I have to use both official letters and emails for communication. While all my letters will start with "Dear Sir" (unless it is a DO letter), the emails invariably start with the first name of the person, irrespective of my level of acquaintance with the person concerned and vice-versa.

And yes, people do frown at bad sentence constructions and grammatical inaccuracies in an email, surprisingly though, in my experience, people don't mind typos as much as they do the above mentioned faults in an email.

LizzieD: My view is that even if they are never called upon to exercise them, I will still offer up these Life Lessons (which is exactly what I call them too). Another big one is the misconception that coming into a professor's office and laying on the so-called charm will get them what they want (for example, an extension on a due date, a higher grade on an exam, or 'extra credit'). The sad thing is that this seems to work for them with a lot of my colleagues, but not with me. Another of my favorite responses to dish out: when a student comes wheedling for extra credit (a student who has been lax in doing the work all semester, not those who really to try and struggle - those tend not to ask for freebies) and asks, "What can I do to raise my grade?" This, in the last week of the semester! I tell them, "go invent yourself a time machine, travel back to the beginning of the semester and actually *do* the work assigned - that will more than likely raise your grade." Sounds cruel, maybe, but I honestly believe in teaching students more than just Latin. A liberal arts education, to my way of thinking, should include larger lessons, life lessons, such as taking responsibility for your actions and owning up to your mistakes.

This ties in with an earlier convo - where the person doesn't recognize the difference between speaking and writing. Here is another breakdown in hierarchical structure. I've noticed it, certainly, with my daughter (14). She truly considers herself to be as good as anybody and as entitled to her say. Is this good or bad?

She struggled too -- in 5-6th grade when her school began giving 'real ' writing assignments with learning the formal vs vernacular. The teachers all insisted on it, but it was hard for her and all of her peers to learn this and I realized that there is very little formality in her life. I grew up with a formal Sunday meal and on many occasions we were expected to change our clothes for dinner and behave a certain way (quiet and polite and deferential to adults). We don't even dress for our Christmas meal any more. I mean, we look slightly better than usual, but plenty of sibs turn up in jeans. The change has been gradual but inexorable and I think it permeates everything.

We used to dress formally to take a plane somewhere -- I can remember wearing gloves, nice shoes, a dress with a petticoat. But that was when flying was a luxury and you were treated well even when you flew coach. I still have to remind myself that people practically wear PJ's traveling, and why shouldn't they since at any moment it can turn into the most uncomfortable experience of your life......

Oh, you all strike chords with me! I can only reflect on the changes without having the least bit of wisdom to deal with them. Lucy, your daughter's feeling that she is as "good" as anybody else and should, therefore, speak when she chooses. How hard to convey to a teen that it's not about "goodness" but about the relative value of experience. (This is not a new problem. Thoreau immediately springs to mind, and I suspect the Sumerians left something behind about pushy young'uns.)
Here are some things that I should have recorded for classroom use.
"Does that work with your mama?"
"You're asking me for a favor and being obnoxious. Why should I help you out?"
"Look it up." (-when contradicted or questioned about pronunciation or spelling or something basic related to English or Latin)
"If I had wanted you to spend your time _____ (making a collage, printing out a "report" on a topic current in the classroom for extra credit), I would have assigned it."
"What are you going to do about it?" (-in reponse to, "I don't understand," always pronounced with the satisfaction of putting the blame firmly on the teacher and always said by a kid who hadn't paid attention in class, hadn't come for extra help, hadn't studied any at home)
"If you don't do it, you will get a 0, and I will count it." (This was always something of a shock and not believed until the first grades went home.)
End Rant.

THE HILLS AT HOME by Nancy Clark

This is the perfect "introduction-to-summer-and- delightful-reading" book! My thanks to Lucy for recommending it! I will certainly read the other two in the series.
The Hills are a very old family whose very old family home is in Massachusetts and in the possession of Lily, the spinster aunt. In 1989 as a result of various misfortunes, the Hills come home: Uncle Harvey, niece Ginger and her daughter Betsy, nephew Alden and wife Becky with their children Glover, Brooks, Rollins and Little Becky, Harvey's grandson Arthur and his girl Phoebe, and Andy Happening, nephew of the Alden family's friend William. As Lily observes, each Hill firmly believes that the world revolves around him, and Ms. Clark observes their maneuvers with clear-eyed wit and humor. Here's a sample directed at the local clergyman: "---the Rev. Penworthy who liked Nature and who was thinking up a sermon based upon the Evening Prayer Psalter for Fifth Sunday after Trinity, 'The earth is the Lord;s and all that therein is.' He twisted his ankle in a root hole." That strikes me as authorial (?) commentary that really isn't, and I like it a lot.
I recommend this one warmly!

"go invent yourself a time machine, travel back to the beginning of the semester and actually *do* the work assigned - that will more than likely raise your grade.

Beautiful! As an elementary school principal (K-6) my gripe is with the parents who come to me (after failing to convince the teacher) with the extra credit question. Also, those who fail to heed the warnings and call at the last minute wondering why their child is in danger of being retained. I'm sorry but the parents are instilling the worst habits in their offspring and areen't satisfied with the result.

I enjoy these conversations regarding editing, writing, parents.....

Alas, there is a dummying down in our society and educational system.

It is particularly disconcerting on a college level when I proof pages for the yearbook. A student wrote that he went to the art museum with Salvador Dali.

After I asked the student if he dug up Dali's body and inquired about the smelly car ride, I then explained that the went to the museum to observe a Dali painting.

#106 We call those parents "helicopter" parents, hovering over their children. And they are still around at the university level.

#108: Oh yes, they definitely are still around, but thankfully the college at which I teach has a wonderful dean of students who protects us faculty by keeping those kinds of parents at bay. Plus, we have the long arm of the law on our side (FERPA, I think it's called? something somehing something Privacy Act, maybe?). At any rate, we legally *can't* tell the parents anything about how their child is doing.

>107 Whisper1: Linda, what is it with kids and prepositions? If I had to choose just one frustration, weird prepositions in student writing would be very near the top. I know that they haven't ever read enough, but they all talk, and I never hear some of the strange usage that they write.
My favorite Helicopter Parent Stories:
1. I moved kids around all semester so that everybody sat at the front, middle and back of the classroom. Melissa, a senior, didn't want to sit at the front. I made her. Got an e-mail from her mother that night, "Melissa is so upset about her new seat that I know you'll want to change it." I wrote back, "I'm sure that Melissa is mature enough to sit in her assigned seat for 4½ weeks." She did.
2. I've already told this one elsewhere. (This mother was not exactly Helicopter, just clueless.) 17 year-old honors English student disrupted class daily in a way calculated not to bring in the big guns. I gave him a D- the first 9 weeks so that he could pass the course if he would. When I presented his mother with the list (animal noises, dropping a lot of books, asking dumb questions), she looked at him and said, "Aw, honey. Were you that bored?"
Aren't you glad you aren't teaching in high school? Am I not glad to have retired?

One of my frustrating helicopter parent events is the time that a parent called our office secretary and told her that she needed to go to her son's dorm room, wake him up and escort him to the building where the yearbook photos were taken.

I also receive calls from parents who tell me to register their child for a specific class....

Hooo boy!
On the other hand, a mother whose son just finished his freshman year in college just threatened her, "If you don't come on and cut my toenails, I'm going to do it myself!" She was laughing about it, so I guess they're both O.K.

It won't surprise you to hear that most reference librarians have now heard the words, "I'm writing a paper for my son's school project. Can you help me find information on _______?"

I am very worried about how my girls are going to do in college. I am not however, so worried that I am going to do the work for them!

I could write a book about what I went through with my daughter starting in 5th grade -- for three years we had to simultaneously guide and support while sitting on our hands. It was very difficult. She was incredibly disorganized and was not asking for help, lying about what she had or hadn't done..... and so on. Her teacher suggested tests (for ADD) -- all that came up with a 'diagnosis' of lagging development in the organization dept -- maybe add maybe not..... anyhow we had a lot of help from the school and from a very good psychologist, not to mention the fact that our child is very eager to please and do things 'right' and believed us when we sad a) you are smart b) try listening to the adults around you and try some of the strategies, if they don't work, fine, but if they do, your life will be so much better. .... This year, if her school gave grades she would have had all A's -- even in PE, if you can believe that! I barely had anything to do with it, other than being willing to take her to the library or Staples to get supplies......

But as a parent it was one of the hardest things I've ever done -- being there and not there, present but not interfering.... I am an older parent, well-educated, very sensible and aware of psychological terms and methods -- I can easily imagine a less fortunate and eager parent totally taking over out of a misguided sense of helping and then creating an even bigger mess. There were times in 6th esp when I would be gnashing my teeth trying to keep my mouth shut! Letting her struggle. Oi.

Bless you both! I'm sure that many parents envy your ability to make a decision, stick to it, and finally see positive results. It's those who have found it easier to worship than to parent that make me grind my teeth. Well, and those who have abdicated parenting and passed the responsibility on to teachers........ ("Why didn't you call and tell me that my child was failing?" "I sent home 2 progress reports and 2 report cards." "I never saw them; I don't know when those things come out." "The dates are in every newsletter that we mail to you, online at the school site and my site, on the scrolling marquee in front of the school.... Wait. You work in the school system. You do know when they go out." "She won't show them to me." "?" "She lies - she always has - and says that things are going well." "?")
I'm getting depressed. Does somebody besides Lucy have a happy school story?
I have some, of course; they are my reason for having taught as long as I did. But it's definitely "some happy" over against "mostly sad."

I have lots of happy school stories. Of course, my school only had 2 students :)

Had we not intervened as forcefully and effectively as we did, at that moment, things could have happened very differently for our child. That much is very very clear to me.

At her new high school they warned her at orientation that if a student doesn't hand something in, the teacher won't go after them to get it done..... it's all up to them to pay attention and keep track..... My child found that interesting enough to pass on to me.

Wow, what a discussion here! The biggest change I saw in my many years working at a university was that many students no longer see higher education as a rare and wondrous experience but as a commodity they purchase with their fees. This is a symptom of the Age of Entitlement: just because you were born, you're entitled, honey. Praised by well meaning parents for doing nothing, having been told they are Special, we found distressing numbers of them didn't have a clue how to work and didn't understand that while they might be Special to their parents, they weren't necessarily so to everyone else. The saddest thing is that truly gifted profs, lifelong brilliant teachers, are burning out and taking early retirement, just to get away from it.

But there were some really good moments with really deserving kids getting a break and going for it, so it's not all sour apples. I have one story in particular which reduces me to tears when I tell it. I've never regretted my work as an educator because of those ones. But I'm glad to be retired too, Peggy! You reach an age where you just can't tolerate the guff and start chanelling your inner crone.

Ah yes. My inner crone came out and took over and wouldn't let up - even at home. I was tired of it, tired of them, and most of all, tired of me. So I retired.
I remember Melissa from post 111 never tired of declaring that she was "spatial." (This is N.C. after all.) I always agreed and pointed out that everybody else in my class was special too. Then there was the parent who wanted to withdraw her child from Latin because he wasn't getting it (He wasn't studying or paying attention in class, but never mind), and she was afraid he was going to lose his self-esteem. I said, "You want to tell him that he's too dumb to learn Latin, and you're worried about his losing his self-esteem?" ??? That's a concept that's ruined a whole generation if you ask me. I know I've posted this before, but I was forced to teach Seven Habits of Highly EffectiveTeens and when I asked whether they had learned anything useful, a huge majority answered something like, "There were some very good ideas, but I am content (one child wrote "contempt") with myself as I am." Then there was the one who introduced herself to me by writing "I have good self-a-steam."
Now --- good stories! SAT verbal and writing scores came up 200+ points because smart kids actually worked. Kids who had complained their heads off came back and hugged and thanked and told the current sufferers that I actually knew what I was talking about. Kids called me "Mama," wrote sweet notes, loved me and I loved them back. Shoot! I loved them first. I miss teaching; that's just not what I was doing that last year. Now I know I'm through unless you want to get me started on the things they wrote.........

Good stories - my children attend a charter school. The school has high expectations of both students and their parents. They told us from the beginning that we are not to hover and babysit to make sure they are doing their assignments. They have planners, they write in them, they know what they are supposed to do. They are responsible. My son just finished 5th grade (*103 - I feel your pain) and did mediocre work. Pure laziness. All we had to do was show him in the student handbook where it said that students who did not perform above a "D" level would be held back, no exceptions. Then we said, it's your choice! Love it!

We did have a parent who came to a school board meeting and stated that it's really too strict to "require" all the students to be to school on time, it would be better to say that they should "do their best" to be on time. The principal smiled and told him that she was preparing them to be punctual to their first job so they could remain employed. That type of parent is truly an oddity anymore at our school.

I am becoming a greater advocate every day for parent choice in education. There are so many great teachers out there - especially present company - but the traditional public school systems tie your hands. With luck you get a great administrator who sets the tone and the expectations, but otherwise, it's tough. I think a lot of parents feel entitled to their kid's education. They are so disconnected from the whole process, they don't feel it's their responsibility to monitor it anymore.

oooh soap box!

That sounds like a great school, Jenn! I'm happy for you and your children.
Entitlement has been mentioned twice. My worst experience was at a private school where the parents seemed to think that they were paying for A's and B's. I even had a parent suggest that I make the whole Latin class start over at the beginning (in December) because his son hadn't taken the course seriously and was behind.
Administrators! I think that is how this whole thing began.

I'm currently reading Burmese Lessons, my current ER ARC. I can't decide how much I like it; certainly, reading it is not a chore. On the one hand, I would like less author and more Burma......as when she longs for the day when she will no longer be beautiful so that serious people will take her seriously. On the other hand, her descriptions of student demonstrations are chilling, and I feel her frustration at being endangered yet not really a part of the resistance. Then, I hate, loathe, and despise present tense narration. It annoys me. (WHY are so many more people trying this these days? It's a bear to keep time shifts consistent although Connelly does a pretty good job.) But sometimes her writing sparkles and engages. I took time out to post this now because of this paragraph - not for its sparkle but because it addresses an idea that we were talking about on Becky or Lucy's thread some time ago in relation to Tana French and In the Woods:

"I've always been suspicious of those interviews in which novelists describe how they are "taken over"
by their characters, as though the writer is privy to some kind of mystical experience that eludes the rest of us. In fact, I am not at all "taken over" by this as-yet-nameless personage; he is not me. When I hear him speaking, I feel unbalanced somehow, unsure, but full of curiosity: it's the ideal mental climate for good writing. At the same time, I feel I've entered a world that I probably shouldn't have entered, in which I have no rights.
Yet here I am. A man in a prison in Burma."

Burmese Lessons by Karen Connelly

I just this minute finished this ARC, so I'll wait until tomorrow to write my ER review in hopes that my feelings and opinions about the book mellow. I just read the other three reviews which lavished unstinted praise. I didn't like it that much. I didn't like her that much, and I need to try to figure out whether it's just one of those inexplicable antipathies or something with a rational basis.
What I did want to say tonight was that my reading this was an experiment in the way most people apparently read: just one book or maybe two at a time. I didn't like that either. I don't think the dislike of the method caused the dislike of the book, but I won't do this again. I apparently thrive on having a lot of different stuff going on at the same time - in contrast to my very placid external life. So, please drop by sometime tomorrow for my take on *BL*.

OK, will do.

(and count me amongst those who do not read only one book or two at a time)

Burmese Lessons: A True Love Story by Karen Connelly (my ER review)

I was certainly warned. The subtitle of Burmese Lessons is A True Love Story. Somehow, I expected that the love was for the people and land of Burma, and that is true as far as it goes. Ms. Connelly went into Burma to investigate the fate of a Burmese writer under arrest by the generals of the State Law and Order Restoration Council. As she got in touch with other dissidents, she did fall under the spell of the country, and the best parts of the book relate her experiences in student protests and in life on the border of Thailand and Burma with Burmese refugees. She also fell in love with a Burmese resistance leader, and so, was invited to join the life of these freedom fighters.
What I was not prepared for was being invited to participate in vicarious sex with this man for page upon page upon page. I could sympathize with her conflict as she decided whether to give up her life as a writer in order to become part of his mission, but I hadn’t chosen the book in hopes of titillation. In fact, while I valued her honesty and idealism, I came away disliking her personally. “Most people won’t take a woman seriously if she’s under thirty. If she’s under thirty and beautiful, too many men want to fuck her and too many women are jealous of her. And still none of them take her seriously. I look forward to being over forty, wrinkled and tough.” Perhaps my problem was that I am not under thirty and beautiful.
I also reacted negatively as she named herself an artist. I never liked her writing. First person, present tense narrative annoys me beyond belief. I find it precious and artificial rather than immediate and compelling. I also tired quickly of long pages of simple declarative sentences. She can write gracefully and rhythmically when she is thinking philosophically, but for this book that was not her choice. All in all, I have to say I found not enough Burma but too much love and too much Karen Connelly.

Great books and wonderful discussions to be found on your thread!!!!

#127: Skipping that one! I do hope you enjoy your next read more, Peggy.

Interesting review, Peggy. I found your reasons for not liking the book very insightful. It's the kind of review I really appreciate.

I'm wondering if you read Connelly's novel The Lizard Cage Peggy? I'm reading it right now and am totally hooked. I also received Burmese Lessons as an ER book so I'm hoping I like it better than you. I only skimmed your review as I never like to know too much about a book before I read it but I can see you weren't a huge fan. I'm hoping to get to it within the month.

Thanks for warning me off Burmese Lessons; I've removed it from my wish list.

I just caught up with your thread. What a fascinating discussion!

Regarding the quality of written communication these days: I wonder if/how any of this relates to the increase in the rate of developmental disorders, such as Autism Spectrum Disorders, which affect language ability? The rate for ASD is now one out of every 150 children -- with a higher inicidence in some regions of the country.

My own son has Autism, and I suspect his writing will never pass muster with those who are sticklers for proper English. (He is also quite lacking in organizational skills.) Yet he is quite bright in many ways.

I struggle to find the right balance of concerned parenting without taking over and doing too much for him. I admire how sibyx handled her daughter (post 116). However, it might not work out so well for my son, who has a definite disability. What's a mother to do?

>133 tymfos:. "What's a mother to do? Make sure your son's school(s) are aware that he has been diagnosed with Austism.

I taught writing at a college in my town that enrolled a large number of students with autism, spanning the whole spectrum. (It's Webster University in St. Louis, MO, in case you're wondering.) As an instructor, I was made very aware by the administration of the students enrolled in my classes with autism. They were all assigned to a professor who oversaw their progress the entire time they were at Webster.

I don't think you should overworry about instructors/professors who are "sticklers for proper English" being too hard on a student with Autism. I would have been frog-marched out of the University had I not been sensitive to these students' needs. Plus, I hugely enjoyed the challenge of working with these students as I think most of my colleagues did. Will you find a teacher along the way who disappoints? Of course. But that's life.

Well thank you >133 tymfos: . We are very fortunate in that the intervention worked.

I love the unexpected insights and approach to problem-solving of the autistic person, and any good teacher would focus on that, get him or her to do their best with the basics and not get hung up, I hope. I wish you all the best.

I appreciate the positive comments about my reviews always, but I was less than sure about this one. I didn't like the book, but the other reviewers so far loved it and thought the writing was beautiful. Taste matters a lot. Bonnie, I haven't read The Lizard Cage, but one of the other reviewers had and thought that it helped with this one. I realize that she is respected, as the Orange Prize shows, but I wrote what I thought - which is the reviewer's duty, right?
Terri, you ask a very interesting question which I have wondered about too. I taught many LD kids who had 504 plans which I certainly complied with to say the least. As far as I know, the only autistic kids in my high school were confined to the Special Education program. I think that they were not functioning on a level high enough to be in regular classrooms, but I don't know who made that decision or on what basis. I don't know. Are we simply able to diagnose more competently or are the rates really rising? You probably know, and I'd be glad to hear what you have to say on the subject. Meanwhile, I need to visit your library to see whether you are an Elizabeth Moon fan with The Speed of Dark, and I'd like to hear what you have to say about that too.

#134 Absolutely! School, camp, any program he is in, we make that clear, and will continue to do so. Our small public school system has been great. They don't have lots of "bells and whistles" programs for kids with autism, but they know and care about him and work with his strengths and weaknesses. I'm glad to hear that colleges will, too.

#135 You're welcome! My son does have some surprising ways of looking at things. For a time, he had some skills with memory and dates that bordered on the savant level. As his overall functioning improved and his interests broadened, those "splinter skills" have slowly lessened as he develops more practical abilities. Thanks for the good wishes.

#136 Lizzie, all I ever ask from a reviewer is an honest opinion (and no big spoilers)! :)

Yes, I've read The Speed of Dark, and loved it. I've often struggled with the question of autism as part of my son's identity vs. it being an affliction apart from who he is. I felt that was the fundamental issue of that book. I do know of some very high-functioning folks, like Temple Grandin, who say that autism is part of who they are and they would not change it -- indeed, Grandin's whole career is built on the special skills and insights which are part of her autism. Others, for whom autism is more debilitating, see things differently.

As for the stats, there is much debate, but more and more the evidence is growing that at least part of the increase is real and not just a matter of better diagnosis. There are more theories than you can shake a stick at as to why this is the case. I'm sure you've heard the vaccine theory, which has supposedly been repudiated but keeps popping up. (I'm not a subscriber to that, though I try to keep an open mind all the way around.)

I agree that honesty is always the best basis for a review. I frequently go against popular opinion, but I can't help the way I feel about what I read. I always try to be fair in a review and tell why I didn't like a book, although sometimes it's hard to articulate those fuzzy feelings.

>127 LizzieD:: I thought your review was great, especially that last line. Short and to the point...All in all, I have to say I found not enough Burma but too much love and too much Karen Connelly.

#127 Your review was helpful Lizzie, although it's not a book I'm going to look out for.

#138 It's interesting to hear your thoughts on The Spped of Dark Terri. I found the question of identity vs affliction very interesting when I read that one recently.

>136 LizzieD: Peggy, I didn't mean to suggest that I didn't appreciate your honest opinion because I certainly do. I guess I just was trying to say that since I have to read and review it myself, I hope I have a different opinion than you. Otherwise, it would be very difficult for me to get through it.

I have gone against the grain myself many times: Cold Mountain, Lark and Termite and Midnight's Children come very quickly come to mind.

Oh mercy, Bonnie! I wasn't thinking of your comment at all when I said that I had doubts about my review. I also hope that you like it, and I'll be happy for you if you do. (I apparently have a thing about not enjoying real - as opposed to fictional -crime and sex.) I just wonder what I'm missing and feel a little mean because Connelly's childhood was apparently so troubled that she deserves a lot of slack in the self-promotion department.
You know, though, we may just read differently. Midnight's Children blew me away, and I take it that you were less than enthusiastic. I also finally enjoyed Cold Mountain too. I don't know Lark and Termite and am off to investigate...... But we can be friends, can't we?

ETA: I've looked. I don't believe I'll be reading *L&T* anytime soon.
EAgainTA: Terri, I do appreciate your comments on Speed of Dark and growing numbers of children with these diagnoses. We used to say, "It's in the water" when we bemoaned shortening attention spans and allergic reactions to work. It's scary to think that it might be.

142: But we can be friends, can't we?

There wouldn't be any point to writing about the books we've read if we all liked and agreed on everything would there? I love the fact that my friend Bonnie and I can agree on most of the books that we've read in common, but we agree to disagree on the Big 3 she named in Post 141. Who knows, there may even be one or two that she really liked and I didn't. But we're still friends...at least I hope so.

Have I mentioned how much I love this place? Do you have any idea how few people in my hometown have read even one of the Big 3? Or anything else in book format?

I know what you mean, Peggy. I have one friend who is a "real" reader and several who read a few bestsellers a year and call it good.

It was a wonderful day when I discovered a whole community of people who love to read and discuss the books that they are reading. I truly enjoy the variety of books and personalities on LibraryThing.

I tell everyone my decision to join LT was the best $25 I ever spent! I cannot imagine what my life would be like without this online community.

Same here - I talk to people about all of you, and our conversations, as though you were people I see and speak to daily - friends. I think most of them think I'm slightly cracked, but they have no idea what a favor you all are doing them. Now they don't have to hear me go on and on about what I'm reading.

We have a rule in my house that we can't talk over dinner about people who aren't real - this is to stop my children going on and on about the stupid teen soap operas they watch endlessly. Now, though, it's causing me a real problem - like nitnut (and everyone else I suspect), I want to share all the interesting conversations and funny events I read about here, and I want to talk about all my new friends. My kids keep stopping me, invoking "the rule" - I'm having trouble convincing them that online friends are "real people"!

>144 LizzieD:-147: I'm right with you all on this. Some of my strongest friendships now are with people I met on LT. I've been fortunate to meet a few face-to-face, but there are many people here who really are friends even though we haven't met in "real life." I don't think my husband quite understands it yet, still viewing online relationships as something not quite real. But I don't have any F2F friends with whom I can discuss books the way I do here, and those discussions are so fulfilling!

>148 JanetinLondon:: Janet, that's pretty funny. I would argue, however, that soap opera characters are truly fictional whereas all LT members are real (* takes pulse, just to check *) If you were talking with your kids about a character in a novel, then they would have a point. Maybe we should all turn up on your doorstep!

Janet that's very funny -- Here we listen to endless 'Vampire Diary' and 'Glee' replays -- oh -- and Harry Potter fan fiction plots. I haven't outlawed it, I sort of let it wash over me, but if I had two girls I might have had to..... When I start, "My LT friend said...." the whole bunch (of two) roll their eyeballs at each other and groan.

>150 sibylline:: Harry Potter fan fiction plots: OMG, Lucy, have you also been subjected to "A Very Potter Musical"? Fairly nauseating, but my girls love it.

#148 that is funny! As I'm only sharing the house with my dog, I don't have too many mealtime conversations at all, which is one reason among many that I have appreciated the 'virtual' company of the very 'real' people on LT. I do have quite a few friends who like reading very much, and who do read a fair amount - but I only get to see most of them once or twice a year so there isn't the opportunity to discuss reading on a daily basis with them.

>142 LizzieD: Whew!! Go away for a little while and so much activity here. Peggy we will still be friends I can assure you. Who knows? I may enjoy Burmese Lessons even less than you did. I'm just hoping it's not another ER book that I wish I'd never signed up for.

I also appreciate what a fantastic outlet LT is for book discussions and making friends. Most of my RL friends do not read the books that I choose to read so discussions are not possible. And I'm done trying to foist my choices on them. It doesn't work at all. So here is this wonderful community of readers who can read, discuss and even disagree with no repercussions. Simply sublime.

Amen and Halleluiah!!!
It had occurred to me sometime early last year to worry about myself that my online friends had gained such a strong place in my heart. No worries anymore! Granted, we get mostly the best of each other (although I have people here to whom I complain and rant in a non-attractive way), but literally, nobody reads all of the stuff that I choose, and it's wonderful to have people who do right here every day.
>153 brenzi: Bonnie, I have stopped signing up but for one ER every month for that reason. I check them out thinking that I'll let the month pass, but there's always one that catches my eye - and *BL* was it for last month. I think we ought to start a thread here "What I'm Signing Up For" so that feeble souls like me who don't make good choices can get a good hint ahead of time. I often read reviews that leave my mouth watering. On the other hand, limited copies mean that smart people probably don't need to invite competition to something they dearly want.

THE GOBI DESERT by Mildred Cable

Another wonderful Virago/Beacon Traveler. How I wish I owned all of these! (I'm working on it.) How I wish that they had published more! Anyway, here's my review again since it's short and done mostly because nobody else had written one.

This is a solid, memorial to an exotic place in a time long past. Cable's writing has none of the immediate charm of Isabella Bird's, but she and her two companions have distilled the experience of ten years' experience as opposed to the excitement of one journey. She shows none of the reformer's passion of Flora Tristan (and readers who are chary of a missionary's writing may be glad), but her love of God and people is implicit in the whole book. What she does give is a clear, reflective look at the landscape, people, and discipline of the whole Gobi Desert from oasis to oasis in its cultural and geological diversity. The trio left the desert in 1936, and Cable also spends some time looking at the forces of change.
To give a brief taste of her writing, here is a short paragraph from near the end of the book as she speaks of the nomads of the eastern Gobi as it merges into Mongolia. "It is a region so vast that the encampments are as widely separated by sands as islands on the face of an ocean are by water, but wherever there is steppe or grazing land, there the Mongol comes, spends a season, feeds his flocks and herds, then rolls up his tent and moves on to fresh pastures. The Gobi winds clean up the place which he has soiled, the pastures which his flocks have cropped grow greener than ever, and Nature promptly repairs all the mischief he has done to her clean orderliness." Alas, for a time when Nature can no longer make repairs!

Just delurking to say how much I am enjoying the fabulous discussions you have been having on this thread. Great reviews too!

Now I take that more than kindly, ABW, since I have followed you with respect here and there at LT.

I just want to chime in on the topic of the awesomeness of the LT community...I love you guys! Really, I've said it before and I'll continue to say it, I've never come across a group of so many kind people before. I've been a member of numerous forums and message boards in the past, and never have I been a part of such a wonderful group of people.

I joined this site 2 years ago, when I was 20 years old, and I honestly believe you guys have had a profoundly positive impact on my life. To be exposed to so many different opinions and ideas in such a calm, non-confrontational environment has been a major benifit to my outlook on the world around me.

These forums are a safe haven for me, and they are one of my favorite places to be (in addition to the public library, of course.) The Libraything community is amazing, and each and every one of you help make it that way.

I'll echo the above sentiments! It's lovely how we can discuss and debate about books and about so many other things. Sometimes we may get passionately vocal about our different views, but we're able to agree to disagree and everyone almost always manages to stay friends. I have some RL friends with whom I can discuss books, but nothing to compare with this forum!

I also enjoy the . . . how shall I say it . . . the quality of the postings. So much of what I see posted on other web forums is so, well, icky and downright mean. People just mouth off without caring about anyone else's feelings, and some of it is almost unreadable.

People are kind and caring here, as well as considerate and literate.

I'm reminded of my first online community where people were waiting to one-up you. I replied, probably more strongly than I should have, to a post about a silly little mystery and pulled somebody's chain. He responded with a flame that had perfect strangers apologizing for him. This is a safe place, and I thank you all for it.

>155 LizzieD:: This looks great. I gave your review a thumbs-up!

Thank you, Carly! These old books do deserve a new readesrship.

#155: I already have that one in the BlackHole, but none of my local libraries has it. Thanks for the reminder that I need to search for it elsewhere, Peggy!

#155 - This is the sort of title I might have walked right past on the shelf, but now I think I'll be picking it up. thanks.

When I read of all of your thoughts about the sense of community, of real friendships which have formed, of the kindness and consideration for others you've experienced, I want to walk up to one of those narrow-minded, bigoted, right-wing, donkey's hind ends who wants to ban books without really knowing what they are about, getting right up their nose to say "See? See what reading widely and freely will get you? "

The fact is that I live in a place where narrow-minded, bigoted, right-wing, d'shewwtbbwrkwtaa's abound, and many of my acquaintances naturally fall into that category. I feel well-qualified to say, "Right you are!" It's the "reading widely and freely" that they don't get. As I said somewhere else, a locally prominent politician's wife apologized profusely to me for quoting something she had heard on NPR, as opposed to a "Christian" network. I may be wrong, but I believe that some of them would think that agreeing to disagree is being criminally tolerant. (I didn't mean to get into rant mode. I'll stop. This is a most gracious place.)

#166: I believe that some of them would think that agreeing to disagree is being criminally tolerant.

As one of the right-wing people in question, I would agree with you! Honestly, I think some people just feel that they have to argue for the sake of argument!

Dear Stasia, there is right wing and then there is right wing. You are open to discussion and then moving on. In my hometown people argue not for the sake of argument necessarily, but to save the one who disagrees from herself if possible. If it's not possible, they do the personal equivalent of shaking the dust from their feet, and the dissident is less than persona non grata. I'm not sure that is clear, but the ones I deplore can't abide to live and let live.

#168: I know the sort you mean: they take 'God is no respecter of persons' to include them - no respect for the person who's opinion does not line up with their own. My personal take on that is that I am not God and that anyone is entitled to their opinion - whether I agree with them or not.

Amen.......especially when the other person is a thoughtful adult!

Just had to chip in here - one of the things I really like about this group is the huge range of political views people have. We don't talk a lot about politics, but it's pretty clear pretty quickly where many of us stand. There are people here I would disagree with so strongly that I might never have gotten beyond that if I met them in another context. But in this context it doesn't matter at all. And that's been a good lesson for me - don't judge a book reader by its voting habits!

don't judge a book reader by its voting habits I like that! And I agree: the common ground of enjoying books, even if we also disagree sometimes about which books we enjoy, brings us together and helps us avoid making superficial judgements about those who are different.

Yes and yes and yes.

# 167 thru 173 I AGREE!!!

#174 Ditto!

>53 LizzieD: Nothing to add about this one except to wonder why I deprived myself of regular doses of Heyer for years and years. I'm sure I'm a much jollier person when I have one in hand. I've run out of Heyers and even their poor cousins the regency wannabees.

Today I'm reading a gruesome thriller. I'm sure I'd be much jollier too :)

>76 ronincats: Thx Roni for the tip re: Elgin

regarding apostrophes and the idea of getting rid of them. Nope. Not for me. it takes a lot longer to say stuff without possessives!

>171 JanetinLondon: ff don't judge a book reader by its voting habits! LOL

I went with my dad to one of his company picnics in St Louis. Met a gal and had an absolutely fabulous time chatting with her. She found out I worked for Phyllis Schlafly and said, "I'm a member of NOW -- I shouldn't be talking to you!" and ran away.

It wasn't always like that, but too often. LOL Met a gal on a subway in D.C. when I was there for a conference. She said, "Oh, I've been looking for someone like you. I'm a baby-killer." She really said that. Turns out she was an abortion counselor. I'm sure that wasn't her real title. I was stunned. I'd never call her a baby-killer even if she were the doc. She and I had a good discussion after that shocking intro! LOL Sadly my dumb ADD brain/body lost her card so our relationship didn't continue (even all these years later I keep hoping it will show up!).

Lovely to see you here, Susan! I added the Elgin to my obese list too, and am about to finish In the Woods which is gruesome enough. You worked for Phyllis Schlafly? Oh my. And yet, here we are friends who are concerned for each other. I like it.(Your story reminds me of a couple of times when I met somebody who reacted to my drawl by saying, "I'm sure that you're a nice person, but you'll ruin my Oxford accent if I talk to you, so Goodbye.")
I have been on a book-ordering spree --- I was so good last month that I spend less than $25. This month, however, I'm looking for these to come in the mail, and it's my whole month's budget + gone by the 4th....:
from PBS - A Way from Home, The Clever Woman of the Family, A Game of Hide and Seek (both VMC's and provided my dear friend Elaine), The Discovery of Heaven
from Amazon Marketplace - Transformation, The Law: a Novel set in Apulia, Southern Italy by Roger Vailland, The Desert and the Sown (a Virago/Beacon Traveler)
from Awesome Books -
Through Connemara in a Governess Cart (a V/B Traveler), The Orlando Trilogy, The Brimming Cup (2 more VMC's), and The Steel Remains.
AND I won Percival's Planet forom ER for June!

IN THE WOODS by Tana French

I found this to be a pretty good mystery although the narrator drove me a little nuts. I think that there has been enough conversation about this one for me to say that I'll certainly be reading more French and let it go at that.

Stopping by to say hi.

#178: I have heard that the second book is better than the first, although I still have not gotten to it yet :)

I can wait for the 2nd French until it comes my way at pbs. Meanwhile, with more begun than I can possibly read and more coming in, I'm having the summer doldrums and enjoying the *Poldark Saga* on video. I adore the books! I've read the whole 13 or so at least 3 times and will try to make myself wait until next year for the 4th. In a different way, the BBC production is equally enjoyable. Angharad Rees doesn't look like Demelza, but she is from the inside out - and Demelza probably should have been a redhead anyway. I'm not a great Robin Ellis fan (his mouth is too slobbery --- sorry), but he does a fine job as Ross. The rest of the cast is pretty well perfect, especially Jill Townsend who is an exquisite and infuriating Elizabeth. So there goes a full 24 hours across the heads as opposed to into my head from books. Happy Summer!

Edited to spell "exquisite" equisite???

Hi Peggy. What a wonderful way to pass the summer doldrums! I seldom think of doing something like finding a good video--why I don't know. It's a great idea. Happy Summer to you as well.

181> I just finished watching the entire 'Poldark' saga a few weeks ago! (Season 2 isn't available on DVD here in the US, so I watched it on YouTube.) I had never seen the series before. I hadn't read the books, so I really liked Demelza. It was Elizabeth who bothered me--or rather her make-up artist. Her acting was OK, but all those freckles on her back and chest were a real anachronism. No upper class lady would have exposed her skin to the sun like that! Palest pale was a sign of beauty and breeding. I rather liked the evil George, and I thought the first Dr. Enys much better than the second. Jud Painter was WAY over the top. I kept saying to myself, "Why doesn't Poldark just fire his sorry a**?"

If you haven't seen it, may I recommend the mini-series 'The Aristocrats'?

Gee, my old video cassette is so old that I can't see freckles on Elizabeth, and I've been looking like crazy! I think that Judd was way over the top in the books too, but his character - such as it is - is developed much more thoroughly. Prudy is much too neat and nice, believe it or not. Perfect for summer!

Gee, my old video cassette is so old that I can't see freckles on Elizabeth, and I've been looking like crazy!

Peggy, you make a good case for keeping the old equipment around. My kids want us to buy an HDTV. Our excuse is that our old eyes can't tell the difference between an okay picture and a super-sharp one!

I have a friend who is going to lend me the John Adams DVD set when she is finished with it. I've heard it is wonderful as is the book (which I haven't read).

Meanwhile, in 250 pages or so, I've gotten PB Shelley to the ripe old age of 22 (Shelley:the Pursuit). What a piece of work he was! So far he is - in no particular order - spoiled, brilliant, disturbed, sneaky, selfish, radical, militantly atheistic, bold, innocent, seductive, insanely incompetent about money. I'm enthralled, and I hardly know why I started reading this because I enjoy his poetry least of the Romantics. I think that it may be due to my great respect for Richard Holmes.
(And, Donna, most of what I own in the video department is VHS, so I'll hate it when the old tech bites the dust.)

LOL--how many pages are there? He only lived to be--what?--30? I have this one on my shelf, not read. Is it worthwhile, Peggy?

Becky, I think it's absolutely worthwhile, especially for somebody who is interested in the general culture of the radicals at his particular time. But it is the 733 pages one........

Oh, ouch. I guess that's why it's still sitting on my shelf--haha. But it's good to hear from you that it's worthwhile.

I have a huge bio of Keats that flickers seductively at me from time to time....... I keep waiting to get swept up in a Romantic fever again, but so far no go.....

190> Is it the Andrew Motion bio? I've been looking for a swap copy of that one--hope it comes up soon!

185> The John Adams series was awesome. Who knew that Paul Giamatti could be understated?

GILEAD by Marilynne Robinson

I've just read the reviews of this quietly deep novel, and I don't have anything to add really except that it never threatened to put me to sleep. I'm not sure how Ms. Robinson managed to enter the mind and soul of a man much older than she, but the voice and spirit ring true. If I'm not the last person at LT to read it, I encourage other laggards to catch up. It is a beauty!

I haven't read it yet - but recently acquired a copy and hope to get to it soon, especially with this encouragement.

Thanks, Peggy. No, you're certainly not the last LT person to read this. I just put it on my ever-growing WL.

>192 LizzieD:: It's a beautiful book, isn't it? It's my only 5-star read so far this year. I read Home last year and also rated it 5 stars. It isn't so much a sequel as it is similar events told from another perspective.

Peggy, Gilead is one of my all-time favorite books, followed closely by Home. I've been careful who I recommend them to, however. I've discovered that some people just don't appreciate quiet, reflective type books.

There! See? Thoughtful readers agree. I'll be especially interested to hear what Becky and Genny have to say from their unique pov's. Laura, I thumbed your review, so it keeps on giving. Donna, I know what you mean, but I think we're safe with this particular sub-group.
Meanwhile, I think I've chosen Small Island for my second half of Orange July.

*Raises hand*

I haven't read Gilead yet, either. I have both Gilead and Home in my TBR pile, and I consider myself duly reminded to get on to them!

Hmmm, I guess I'm the odd woman out: I didn't care at all for Gilead so I haven't bothered to look into Home.

Your not entirely odd woman out -- I'm fairly sure it was simply my taste that it didn't capture my .... whatever that mysterious thing is...... when I read it. I appreciated, thought it was beautifully even stunningly well-written, but I was never deeply engaged. Housekeeping is still my favorite. Haven't read Home.

Gilead sat on top of my piano for yonks but recently wandered into the bedroom to join the rest of the TBR pile. I read the first couple of pages and it didn't draw me in so I thought I'd wait until I felt a bit more determined.

Meanwhile, I knew that Shelley had done ill to a first wife, but I had no idea what a jerk he was. He left Harriet pregnant and with their young daughter to "elope" with both Mary Godwin and her half-sister Jane. He had the nerve to write Harriet immediately to tell her that he had never really loved her, but was her true friend and would be glad for her to come to Europe to live with them. Harriet was not impressed but apparently thought that he'd tire of Mary and come back to her. She also was smarter about money than he was and took measures to be sure that she and her child(ren) had enough to live on. Here are some of the things that he wrote to her:
"I deem myself far worthier and better than any of your nominal friends....My attachment to Mary neither could nor ought to have been overcome: our spirits and our bodies are united..."
"Collect your maturest judgement & acquit yourself with justice towards me and Mary....Consider how far you would desire your fuure life to be placed within the influence of my superintending mind, whether you still confide sufficiently in my tried and unalterable integrity to submit to the laws which any friendship would create between us: whether we are to meet in entire and unreserved faith or allow our intimacy to subside."
"In the first place I find that you have detailed the circumstances of our separation to Amory in opposition to your own agreement with me, in contradiction to your own sense of right, & with the most perfect contempt for my safety or comfort."
"I am united to another; you are no longer my wife. Perhaps I have done you injury, but surely most innocently & unintentionally in having commenced any connection with you....Unless a sincere confidence be accorded by you to my undesigning truth, our intersourse for the present must be discontinued....P.S. I do not apprehend the slightest danger from your approaching labour....Your last labour was painful, but auspicious. I understand that cases of difficulty after that are very rare."
My mind has boggled.

Stunning. I see how your mind could boggle. Especially if there is more of such. What a Narcissist.

It's so hard to know the whole picture but his words certainly don't leave a good impression of his side of things, do they. They were both extremely young when they eloped (Harriet was 16) right after his expulsion from Oxford. He was intensely political, which caused this expulsion (and subsequent estrangement from his father because he wouldn't recant in order to be allowed back in). These views resulted in several attempts on his life by "agents" - his death was speculated to have been a political assassination as the side of the boat was stoved in. So was his running away with Harriet a teenager's escapist handling of things but uh oh, children resulted?

In Mary Wollstonecraft, who wrote "A Vindication of the Rights of Woman', he did find a soulmate or at least an intellectual equal. I think Shelley was extremely bright, with political and religious views very much at odds with his time (e.g., pacifism, atheism) but it seems that his attitude to women was very much of his time, particularly as a privileged son of the manor (there was at least one other child by another woman, even when he was with Mary Shelley). Unaccustomed poverty and unwanted children weren't things he coped with very well, but then he hadn't been brought up to expect them as facts of life. As a privileged male of a certain class of Englishman in the early 1800s, he had been raised to think that the world was his oyster.

Everthing Tui says is exactly right except that his Mary was Mary Wollstonecraft's daughter. They read her *Vindication* together. Mary Godwin Shelley was the Frankenstein author, and she was also 16 when they eloped. My impression from this biography is that his father objected to his atheism more than to his political views although they went hand in hand. Bysshe treated his father with contempt at this time and then was floored when the senior Shelley withheld money. Godwin, a leading political radical, supported him but deplored his actions as a rabble-rouser. (He needn't have worried; Shelley was unsuccessful in reaching out to the common man, or at least unsuccessful so far as I have read.) Godwin was also no saint, accepting money from Shelley when Shelley didn't have it to give. Altogether not people I'd be happy to live with as friends!

This discussion is fascinating, as I know almost nothing of these people except for their literary output -- puts them in a whole new light!

I have on my TBR shelf the book The Monsters: Mary Shelley and the Curse of Frankenstein, an account which begins at the time when Shelley and Mary Godwin were lovers not yet wed.

It's a very different kind of book from the one you read, but now I'm thinking of bumping it up the TBR pile just to see how these folks are portrayed in its pages. I suspect that "monster" may refer to the people involved more than to what Dr. Frankenstein created in Mary's book!

I didn't really know anything about them either, Terri, but when I reach page 733, I will; I will!

aha, thanks, Peggy. That Romantics course was in 1976, so you can see that I've got some slippage.

Terri, add Byron into the mix as well! And yet what glorious things got created.

205> I was going to mention his atheism; apparently he self-published an atheistic pamphlet, which was what resulted in his expulsion. Of course, atheism would have been viewed as "political" back then.

I've read a few bios of the Romantics and Mary Shelley, and I've read even more fiction based on their lives. One particularly good novel has the unfortunate title Passion: A Novel of the Romantic Poets by Jude Morgan. (Don't let the title put you off.) Peter Ackroyd's The Casebook of Victor Frankenstein included a very unflattering portrait of Shelley, who led young Victor down the road of debauchery and atheism.

The first time I was in London I was fortunate to attend a rare performance of Shelley's The Cenci.

Cariola: Wow; I read The Cenci not too long ago - I can't imagine what an actual performance of that play would be like - what did you think of it?

It was pretty awesome--especially for me, since my field is Renaissance Drama. It was very like the Jacobean revenge tragedies, only (being Shelley) there was a lot more talk than action.

>211 Cariola: *giggle* *snort* for "more talk than action"!
I can't force myself to read Shelley at this point. I'm certainly not going to tackle "Queen Mab." Maybe deeper into the book I'll be inspired - that was one reason that I got into this anyway.
(My favorite - only book, really - about the Romantic poets is Tim Powers's The Stress of Her Regard which imagines the Nephilim from Genesis as sort of psychic vampires. Weird but fascinating!)

I remember being blown away by Ken Russell's movie 'Gothic' when it came out back in the 1980s. I saw it again recently--what was I thinking? (It's about the competition at Byron's villa that supposedly led to the writing of Frankenstein.)

DEATH'S HALF ACRE by Margaret Maron

I love the Deborah Knott mysteries although I liked the earlier Sigrid Harald ones more. This one, I fear, is going to feel dated very soon since the action turns on a missing flash drive. I had figured out motive pretty quickly but not whodunnit because I didn't care to give it enough thought. Maron always plays fair though, and it's always a treat to get back to Colleton County in my home state. The woman knows her South; I don't think she's mentioned run-up collards yet, but I'm waiting.

I'm really enjoying your discussion of Shelley & Co! I had only one course in poetry in college, and have always been intrigued by this group of poets and lovers. Perhaps I'll pick up one of these titles at the library this week!

I am seriously thinking of reading the book I mentioned about Mary Shelley next. Though it's not really a biography, I think I could justify putting it in the "interesting people" category in my 1010 challenge.

Terri, the book, The Monsters: Mary Shelley and the Curse of Frankenstein looks fascinating. Thanks for the tip. I'm adding it to my wish list.

Terri, I just looked at the one review of *Monsters* and it does look like a good one and perfect for "interesting people." (They are to me!) On a trip through my shelves looking for something else, I found a Richard Holmes biography of Coleridge. I almost wish that I had seen it first; it's shorter and I prefer C's poetry. Oh well.
I've gotten the Shelley menage's money problems solved for the moment with the death of his grandfather and am off to sprint the 20 pages that stand between me and the summer of 1816 with Byron in Switzerland.
Otherwise, I'm enjoying my ARC for a wonderful change! It's Percival's Planet about Clyde Tombaugh and the discovery of Pluto. So far it's no more about Clyde than it is about gathering the crew for the Lowell Observatory from their various lives. I need to do a little research to find out who's historical and who's along for the fictional ride. It's nothing deep or significant - just well-written and entertaining, great for summer!

Go Peggy! I have that Holmes biog of Shelley right here in front of me. It's a monster of small type, but you're almost halfway there! From what I can tell, Holmes's book looks pretty readable. I've really enjoyed the posts here about Shelly, et al. I'll be following you to the end.

P.S. I sure miss Sib, don't you?

I just dug out Posthumous Keats by Stanley Plumly which I've been wanting to read for awhile.

I'm here, I'm here. For some reason I think Diane Johnson has written something about Mary Shelley -- but I could be wrong...... I scoped around a little and all I could find was a preface to Frankenstein.... but maybe she's included in DJ's book Lesser Lives which (as you see from the touchstone) includes other lives...... not that I think of Mary Shelley as lesser.

#217, 218 I started The Monsters last night after my son went to bed, and am almost halfway through it already -- read as late as I dared last night, and picked it right back up when I got home from work today for as much time as I could spare. I'm finding it fascinating! Definitely interesting people!

But now I'm wanting to re-read Frankenstein to go with it . . .

I've been sorting through books--gotta make some room for company that's coming--and found three Mary Shelley bios:

Child of Light by Muriel Spark
Mary Shelley: Romance and Reality by Emily W. Sunstein
Mary Shelley by Miranda Seymour (no touchstone)

Since I regularly teach Frankenstein, I must have stocked up during sales!

WOW! Look at everything available!!! How can I possibly plan what to read next and next and next when I'm still way under water in the one I have? I must say that Muriel Spark on Mary Shelley sounds intriguing even if it should prove not to be the best biography. (Of course, it could also be the best.) Keats is my favorite poet of that crowd if I discount Don Juan which I love because I eat up satire. I have a small collection of his letters (Keats, not Byron) that I have picked up and put down several times with little success in penetrating more than a page or two. I also downloaded a collection of 12 novels and some short stories of Mary Shelley for 99¢ on the old Kindle, so I have those to look at some time. Frankenstein, The Fortunes of Perkin Warbeck and The Heir of Mondolfo are the only ones I've even heard of.....
Nothing here this morning of any substance from me. Sorry! I'll maybe have something good later.

OMG! And I never, ever say or write "OMG!" I own the revised Child of Light; it's called Mary Shelley, and I recognized the cover as soon as I saw it here. So I guess that's what I'll be reading after I finish off the husband. While I was looking on that shelf, I also found The Life and Death of Mary Wollstonecraft by Claire Tomalin whom I also respect mightily. I guess it's going to turn into a summer of that circle.
(I should say that the reason I know so little about what I own is that I bought Penguin Press remainders for 50¢ apiece for several years. They came to our local Indian tribe by the tractor trailer load 3 or 4 times a year, and I was allowed to go through the boxes before they were put on the shelves. I bought any and everything that I thought I'd ever be remotely interested in. Of course, they all have an inch strip cut from the front cover, but they are otherwise perfect books that I can read.)

Peggy, that's one of the most interesting stories about accumulating books I've heard. Ha.

I love the conversation going on here about the English Romantics. As I think Peggy knows and as others might know, I'm reading a book of correspondence of an American essayist named John Jay Chapman (1862-1933). Chapman was a curmudgeon who loved to say outrageous things, but much of the time he meant them. You're just never quite sure when he was yucking it up and when he was serious. Unlike some, though, Chapman was never cynical. Today I came across this in one of his letters about Keats--I thought some of you might find it amusing.

This is from a 1921 letter to a friend:

"When I read 'Endymion' all through, as I did the other day, it makes me so extremely bored and is, much of it, such an atrocious nuisance and so bad in spots that I can almost vote with the reviewers." "Reviewers" was probably very much like a four-letter word in Chapman's lexicon.

Happy reading!

Trying to get caught up here Peggy and loving the story of finding the Shelley book in your TBR pile. One time last year I ordered Madame Bovary from both Amazon and PBS during the same week. I didn't realize it until I had both in hand.**sigh**

Of course, they all have an inch strip cut from the front cover, but they are otherwise perfect books that I can read.

I don't get it?

228> I can't tell you how many times I've ordered a book that I already own!

If any of you would like a lovely audio jolt of Keats while driving or jogging, I strongly recommend 'Realms of Gold.' It's a selection of his letters and poems, beautifully read by Samuel West (with some other actor whose name I can't remember doing the narration that links them).

And let me warn you all OFF of the movie 'Byron,' starring Jonny Lee Miller. Truly dreadful.

I have Lyndall Gordon's bio of Mary Wollstonecroft around here somewhere . . . might have been called Vindication (yes! touchstone confirms). I've read the Frances Sherwood novel of the same title, which was also pretty good.

>228 brenzi: Terri, Penguin gave Indian tribes the books to distribute, so they were stamped "Not for Resale" and had the inch strip cut off to assure that they wouldn't be. The 50¢ was for handling expenses. Since we're a VERY depressed area, the books were very welcome in schools and to people like me.
I thought that LT was going to prevent my duplicating books, but it hasn't worked yet. Oh well.

I've seen but not bought a book about Mary Shelley in the bargain bookshop near work yesterday, it looks quite impressive - one of a series of literary lives published by the British Library with lots of colour illustrations - and was only £2, but I opened it at a page about with a picture of her toddler son who died age 3 of malaria, and learned that her baby daughter had died less than a year before.

I think the Mary Shelley bio I was thinking of is the Spark.....

What I learned about Shelley & Co. in the last chapter:
He was probably more talented as a scholar and translator than as a poet - at least as far as his early work was concerned. I have a greater respect for him at this point than I did when reading about his relationships.
He tried to do a psychological study of himself by recording his dreams with some effort at analysis. Pretty interesting! Eventually, he had to give that up as he had come to a wall, and then he tried to work it out through poetry.
His ménage sounds more and more like a 1960's hippy commune - life together and free love. Mary pretty clearly had a sexual relationship with James Hogg, PBS's Oxford friend, and Jane/Claire pretty clearly did with PBS too. I'm just now getting into their luring Byron into the group.

Shelley's drivel to his wife reminds me of my earliest conversations with my husband this Jan. happily there was no other woman, but many of the ideas/themes were there. gag.

LOL

You're moving right along! with 50 msgs unread I thought it had been forever since I'd visited. Glad to see I was wrong. I was pretty much awol in June and am trying to catch up.

re: friendships overcoming vast differences -- I like that too :)

LOL Just talked to my best friend in Paris today. She's on the moderate side of far left while I'm on the moderate side of far right. Her husband, French, suggested we discuss our political views and why we're voting for whom in the presidential elections. She told me -- we were both horrified! We prefer talking books, cooking and sewing :)

ETA: She introduced me to Allende and Atwood, and I got her hooked on Kay and Bujold :)

Susan, lovely to see you back! Allende, Kay, Atwood, and Bujold sound like the makings of a great friendship to me. Perhaps French husband should butt out???
Meanwhile, I have picked up a fantasy recommended by Lucy and am enjoying some brain-rest time with Transformation by Carol Berg - not to the exclusion of my other stuff, naturally.

>233 LizzieD:: not James Hogg, the Ettrick shepherd?

>234 suslyn:: I have a friend on the other side of the political spectrum. We remain friends by never, ever discussing politics. Sometimes it's the only way.

Woops, Tui. Now I've messed up. My only reference to James Hogg is when Byron wrote him a letter before he left for Switzerland. Shelley's Hogg is Thomas Jefferson Hogg! (I was misled, if you want to be charitable about it, by his being referred to as T.J. Hogg.)
(Have I said this about my very far right friend? We remain friends by my not responding to her provocative remarks. Well worth taking a deep breath for!)

Talk politics with friends???? The two words do not belong in the same sentence.

I'm married to someone from the other side of the political spectrum (though we've both moderated a bit over the years). We ususally enjoy our debates . . . though sometimes we have to say "enough!" and just agree to disagree.

What an incredible thread-- filled with intelligent observations, wonderful comments and great insightful news regarding books and authors.

>237 LizzieD:: I take great glee in signing my Christmas cards with "love from your Commie, Pinko, Socialist, left of centre, Canuck friend, with health care". hehe

>240 Whisper1: Isn't this a fantastic group???? When all the world is present to draw from, it's no wonder that we can enjoy the best of the best. I love y'all and spend way too much time cruising the threads!
>241 tiffin: I'll pass that on to my most aggressive feminist friend who don't take nuttin frum nobody....including our far right friend. (But aff lives in N.J., not here in hometown N.C.)

#241: I love that, Tui!

Hi Peg -- just floating by on my raft --- no paddles, just drifting....

#233 I'm enjoying my book about the Shelleys & co., but it seems to disagree with your book about Shelley on some points. My authors say there's no clear evidence that Mary actually had an affair with Hogg (whatever his first name was), and seem to feel that the "open marriage" was more Percy's thing than Mary's -- she seemed pretty upset by his various relationships or whatever you want to call them.

I guess the scholars look at whatever evidence remains, and draw their own conclusions. . .

I'm skimming through the Muriel Spark bio of Mary Shelley. It's OK, but I'm not learning much new.

Does Spark say anything about why she wrote about Mary Shelley -- that is almost more intriguing to think about. Or perhaps she was simply asked to for some series or other.

I know I used to have that book somewhere, but what I can't remember is whether I ever read it.

I'm slapping my hands to keep them off the Spark Mary Shelley, but since 2 questions are in hand, I'll look far enough to attempt an answer. Apparently, Spark wrote Child of Light in 1951 in the centenary year of MS's death. It was not published in the USA except in a pirated edition. New findings of Shelley scholars and a new acceptance of MS's worth as a writer have caused Spark to rework the biography, I gather.
And as to whether MS and TJ Hogg had an affair, she quotes F. L. Jones, who edited her letters (but didn't include these in 1944), "That Hogg made love to her and that she attempted to return his love, all with the approval of Shelley, is evident." Again, I guess it depends on who is reading the letters.
I've had a non-profitable reading day, so have nothing of my own to add. Oh well.

247> I have the revised edition, and she says in her new intro that when she wrote the biography, she never would have imagined writing fiction. So apparently, she started out thinking of herself as a researcher/nonfiction writer. At the time, she says, there wasn't much interest in Mary Shelley. Probably a young scholar looking for something new and potentially hot to write about.

Good thing, too, that Spark got the idea to try her own hand at fiction.

I'm exhausted from trying to set up a third thread which is here!

>248 LizzieD:: could "making love" refer to flirting, perhaps with a kiss or two thrown in? I know the Edwardians used it that way.

252> I thought the same thing. I know that's what it meant in the 16th-17th centuries--sending love letters, gifts, mooning around, etc.

>252 tiffin: I really didn't think so when I read it, but I could be wrong.

Simply cruising by to say hi.

Oh, I wandered where you went:)