Herodotus: "The Histories" Favorite Quotes

Just getting this set up today. Start collecting your favorite quotes to post.

Is it OK if we collect favorite quotes about history before getting into The Histories?

To start,

"History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme"
-- Mark Twain

(Some interesting quotes about history from the History News Network.)

Isn't this supposed to be about Herodotus' Histories, booksontrial? Our August Read?

Some of those quotes on history might give rise to discussion of "The Histories" on the other thread. ;-)

>3 highdesertlady:: tc53591,

Yes, you're right. I was looking for some quotes that can serve as a teaser or tagline to generate more interest and set the tone for our August read.

>4 LisaCurcio:: LisaCurcio,

My thoughts exactly. :)

Well, that makes sense. ;-)

In my Penguin edition, Selincourt revised by Marincola, there is a bit that I doubt is intended but that I like.

At the very beginning of the Histories, in describing the kindap of Io by Phoenicians and the retaliatory kidnap of Europa from the Phoenicians, H(erodutus) states:

"Later on some Greeks whose names the Persians fail to record - they were probably Cretans - put into the Phoenician port of Tyre and carried off the King's daughter Europa, thus giving them tit for tat."

I imagine H did intend to insult the Cretans. I do not imagine that he intended to insult Io.

I just sent off to Amazon for Herodotus. While trying to settle on a translation, I thought rather than get a straight translation I would see what the Loeb Classics Herodotus would cost. That way I would have the latest version of what we think Herodotus' words might have been. But I couldn't bring myself to spring for the eighty bucks for the four volumes. I got the 1895 translation because I like the language. A hundred years ago, half the people who read this would have been able to read it in the original, so I think this translation probably captures the tone of Herodotus better than more modern ones, and doesn't need to cater to the average American's need to read simplified language.

But I ran across this review, which I thought was quite funny, unless it was serious, in which case WTF? It's the second review. The one by Payman Adldousti.

gene: Thanks for pointing those out. They both had me in stiches! If I had to draw an analogy to the Histories it would be the Old Testament: but the stories are much better and they are told much better. Its easy reading, at least in the Selincourt/Marincola translation - which seems appropriate to me given that it was the source or result of oral performances by H.

I am 100% sure that that review is entirely correct.

How many reviews can you say that about?

Group leader MIA! Just got rid of the last of the out of town and in town family, and I have not read anything for two days!

Gene, I thought both of those reviews were spot on! Of course, the problem might have been that at the time of Herodotus, there was no Iran and no one had ever heard of being politically correct. I vote for the "good old days".

I am reading the Sélincourt and the Landmark for the different translations. I personally like the Sélincourt, but there is so much information in the Landmark.

Quotes starting tomorrow, and group leader returning for leading, right after I finish work.

Lisa, it was the second review, the one from the Iranian that I thought was so funny. It's apparent the guy doesn't see the humor in Herodotus' low view of the Persians. They had just spent the previous hundred years or so attempting to subjugate the Greeks. I should think Herodotus would have a low opinion of the Persians. It would be like an American history written right after the Revolution that didn't praise the British. Does this guy want the Greeks to recognize some innate superiority of the Persians?

Solon, explaining to Croesus how to be deemed a happy man:
(from the Landmark Herodotus)

"You see, the man who is very wealthy is no more happy and prosperous than the man who has only enough to live from day to day, unless good fortune stays with him and he retains his fair and noble possessions right up until he departs this life happily. For many wealthy people are unhappy, while many others who have more modest resources are fortunate. The man who has great wealth but is unhappy outdoes the fortunate man in only two ways, while the fortunate man outdoes him in many ways. The former is more capable of gratifying his passions and of sustaining himself in adversity or passion, avoids these anyway by virtue of his good fortune. Moreover, he has no injury, no sickness, no painful experiences; what he does have is good children and good looks. Now if, in addition to all these things, he ends his life well, too, then this is the man you are looking for; he alone deserves to be called happy and prosperous. But before he dies, refrain from calling him this--one should rather call him lucky."

The antecedent of "Money does not buy happiness"?

There are a few examples of the "live fast, die young" philosophy as well!

When I was a very young boy my mother would take me to visit a friend of hers who lived in a shanty town outside Norfolk, Va. somewhere in the Virginia Beach area. The community was a collection of dirt roads, drafty clapboard houses, dirt yards, immaculately swept, I might add, a corner store made of metal advertisements and clapboard, all running down to a beach littered with old hulks. The way one could tell that these people were really, really poor was that this was a mixed race neighborhood in the South in 1950. I have never known a happier, more carefree bunch of folks. Having nothing to lose is very liberating.

15: geneg,

"Having nothing to lose is very liberating" Realizing that's actually true for everyone is also very liberating. :)

>14 slickdpdx: slick, how about some examples?

I always thought it was "live fast, love hard, die young".

Lisa: I'll try to post some on my way back through.

Gene: There are a lot of die (and kill) hards and die (and kill) harders. Not so many love harders and they are mostly dames.

Please be aware this post has nothing to do with Herodotus, ignore it if you must, but I just couldn't help myself. I shall attempt to keep these digressions to an absolute minimum. But I think Herodotus might have liked the second one. Just think of the Rhapsode with fresher material.

Live Fast, Love Hard, Die Young. By one who did.

Possibly the most maudlin song ever made.

I don't know why H thought this was silly--it worked!

Peisastratos ruled Athens as a tyrant, but was driven out by a group led by Megakles and Lykourgos. When the "coalition" started arguing, Megakles offered to help Peisastros regain control if Peisastros agreed to marry Megakles' daughter. He agreed, "they then, in order to help him return to power contrived the silliest scheme I've ever heard of--particularly silly in this case, for long ago the Hellenes distinguished themselfes from barbarians by their superior cleverness and freedom from naive stupidity; moreover, they carried out this scheme against the Athenians, who were at the time reputed to surpass all other Hellenes in intellect!

There was a woman named Phya in the deme of Paiania who was almost six feet tall and strikingly beautiful. They dressed her up in a full set of armor placed her in a chariot, showed her how to project a distinguished appearance, and then drove her into the city. They sent heralds on ahead of them to tell the people to remain in the cit and to proclaim: 'Athenians, hail Peisistratos and welcome him joyfully, since Athena herself is bringing him home to her own acropolis, honoring him above all men.' They repeated these words as they made their way onward, and before long the rumor that Athena was bringing Peisistratos home had reached the demes. In the city, people actually worshiped this woman in the belief that she was really the goddess, and they welcomed Peisastratos back."

"Except for the practice of prostituting their young girls, the Lydians have nearly the same customs as the Hellenes."

That's a great one, Lisa. Nonchalant comments like that litter The Histories.

I read that one out loud to the spouse. She loves it! Especially when she's trying to read her own book...

About the Persians:

"They are accustomed to deliberating on the most serious business while they are drunk, and whatever decision they reach in these sessions, it is proposed to them again the next day by the host in whose house they had deliberated the night before. Then if the decision still pleases them when they are sober, they act on it; if not, they give it up. Conversely, whatever provisional decisions they consider while sober, they reconsider when they are drunk."

I am thinking of writing my congressman and the two Senators from Illinois to suggest this method of reaching decisions. It could not turn out any worse than what we get now!

It's almost foolproof, LC.

From Book Three:

"The king of the Ethiopians offers this advice to the king of the Persians. Whenever Persians can draw a bow as large as this one as effortlessly as I can, then do make war on the long-lived Ethiopians with your superior numbers. But until then, thank the gods for not directing the minds of the sons of Ethiopians toward the acquisition of land other than their own."

>27 booksontrial: OH SHIT SON

Yeah, the king of the Ethiopians is my favourite leader so far. Although I am fond of post-failure Croesus in his easy chair.

I'm just at the part where we're hearing about how Arabian sheep have little wooden carts that trundle around behind them to hold their tails up so they don't get sores, and I'm thinking Herodotus is definitely putting one over on us here.

28: Yes, but who would believe someone who is descended from the maneaters up North?

>29 slickdpdx: point

>MeditationesMartini,

I think it's possible that the cart was used to protect the wool from falling off.

>29 slickdpdx:: slickdpdx,

Who is descended from the man-eaters?

***
This "man-eater" deserves a quote:

"Harpagos obediently took off the cover and saw the remains of his son, but instead of reacting with shock at the sight, he contained himself. When Astyages asked him whether he knew what meat he had eaten, he replied that he knew, and that it was pleasing--as was everything that the king did. After replying thus, he picked up his son's remains and went home. There, I assume, he buried all the remains that he had been able to gather together."

Ha, I was thinking of the 'Padaei':

"...it is said that when a man falls sick, his closest companions kill him, because, as they put it, their meat would be spoilt if he were allowed to waste away with disease. The invalid, in these circumstances, protests that there is nothing the matter with him--but to no purpose. His friends refuse to accept his protestations, kill him, and hold a banquet .... If anyone is lucky enough to survive to an advanced age, he is offered in sacrifice before the banquet--this, however, rarely happens, because most of them will have had some disease or other before they get old, and will consequently have been killed by their friends."

That's the part I don't get. Why would they eat the sick? Were they not afraid of catching the same disease? Eating the elders and burying the sick, such as the customs recorded in Book I, would make a bit more sense.

This way of treating the elders reminds me of a Star Trek episode, "Half a Life", where an alien species has the custom of not allowing their elders natural death.

When I read the passage about Harpagos eating his son, I was reminded of Aeschylus' Agamemnon and Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus. If I was charged with teaching Shakespeare to today's teens, I would choose Titus Andronicus. The violence and gore should be right up their alley. And why we no longer teach the Greek tragedies in high school is beyond me. It used to be the Greeks and Romans were well known by moderately educated Americans, now the average American only has a vague notion of who they were and no idea why they are important today.

Ask any 15 year old boy today who is Leonidas and he will know !
This thanks to the "violence and gore" adaptation of Herodotus : the movie 300 : This is Spartaaaaaaaa

I am reminded of two things by the above: (1) the flesh chair that Cambyses had made from the judge flayed alive after taking a bribe and then gave to the judge's son. (2) In the Golden Bough there is a lot of discussion of killing the king type rituals and in many societies, according to Fraser's sources, at the slightest sign of infirmity or disease the chief/elder/king etc. would be killed as no longer divine or incarnating the divine or what have you.

The maneaters I am talking about come in Herodotus discussion of the tribes North of Thrace, including the black robes and the maneaters and the people who sleep six months at a time.

Sorry I have not been more active of late. Really busy at work.

>34 geneg:: geneg,

Your post somehow reminded me of a line from "Schindler's List". "Not essential? I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word. I teach history and literature. Since when it's not essential?"

So what's with all the androphagy, anyway? I'm not the most well-read classicist around, but it seems over the top in Herodotus--I don't recall it being a particular fixation in any of his contemporaries, notwithstanding Gene's note on Aeschylus.

(and, >34 geneg:, 35, let me say that I was walking up the Drive last night reading the Histories and was accosted by the drunkest, most delightful young Scottish men--the guys were like 18 and traveling and out on the town and they asked what I was reading and I told them it was about Greeks and Persians and they got so happy--cries of "THIS IS SPAARTAAAAAAAUUGH!" resounded from the rooftops.)

> 38: MeditationesMartini,

Good to know that Vancouver is not really a backwater city after all! :)

>39 booksontrial: whyever would you think such a hurtful thing?

>38 MeditationesMartini: LOL

It is good people remember Leonidas !

>40 MeditationesMartini:: It's a self-flagellation thing perhaps. Speaking of which, Zopyros, the self-mutilating, self-flagellating Persian is worthy of mention. Not only sacrificing his own body, but also slaughtering 7,000 of his own men, to gain trust of his enemy and win the war.

>42 booksontrial: yeah, I admire him despite myself. these ancients sure don't have a sense of marshalling their resources, do they? it's just death and death, and you think, wishy-washy considerations aside, was that really necessary? I'm sure they would have been happy to just be slaves.

I noticed today that Cyrus is the name of the cat who unifies all the gangs, but is assassinated, leaving the falsely accused Warriors to run the gauntlet back to Coney Island. I am not sure how much really corresponds - ah, I see, its Xenophon!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Warriors_(novel)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(Xenophon)

"Often enough God gives a man a glimpse of happiness, and then utterly ruins him."

#45 Hi, Marc,
I spotted your name on the thread as the last poster and decided to say, "Hi!"

I hope you don't interpret my greeting as God's way to utterly ruin you.

Keep well.

"Hippocleides don't care!"

H mentions some awfully big numbers in his descriptions of Xerxes' army. Can anyone tell me how H conveyed these numbers? Was there a Greek number system like the Romans later used? Something else? A thousand thousands or something like that?

I don't know that, but the Wikipedia articles (which are well sourced) on the Greek-Persian wars and related pretty well demolish the numbers as given by Herodotus. Seems like under half a million total Persians might be more accurate. But they did have those gold-mining ants.

Historians have determined that those estimates of the size of the Persian forces, are nothing but a bunch of Hippo-Hockey.

Gelon twice liberates the unfaithful property holders and enslaves the loyal populace. "In both cases Gelon's motive was his belief that the masses are very disagreeable to live with."

I am sure that makes a snappy motto in ancient Greek.

Hi, Peter! Glad to see you on here.

Regarding Slick's question: I'm not sure how Herodotus specifically expresses the numbers -- whether he writes them out or not. But the Greeks (like the Romans and the Hebrews) did use letters for numbers. Here's a discussion.

Thanks Marc! That is fascinating and right on point.

#52
Marc, you are a mine of fascinating information. I have saved the link for future reference.

Is your curiousity piqued at all the secret ceremonies H is so tight-lipped about? Some of them may be here. I know nothing and cannot vouch for the source.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/pgr/pgr02.htm

Worst quote:

At dawn the fighting men were assembled and Themistocles gave the finest speech there. The whole burden of what he said was a comparison of all that was best and worst in human nature and fortune, and an exhortation to the men to choose the better.

Lame!
One place Thucydides is much better than H is in recounting speeches.

I only read selections from Herodotus in The Portable Greek Historians, but wanted to share my favorite quotes:

“Now as for the carrying off of women, it is the deed, they say, of a rogue; but to make a stir about such as are carried off, argues a man a fool. Men of sense care nothing for such women, since it is plain that without their own consent they would never be forced away. The Asiatics, when the Greeks ran off with their women, never troubled themselves about the matter; but the Greeks, for the sake of a single Lacedaemonian girl, collected a vast armament, invaded Asia, and destroyed the kingdom of Priam.”

“Now the Persians had with them a man named Scyllias…He had for some time been wishing to go over to the Greeks; but no good opportunity had offered till now…It is said he dived into the sea at Aphetae, and did not once come to the surface till he reached Artemisium, a distance of nearly eighty furlongs. Now many things are related of this man which are plainly false; but some of the stories seem to be true. My own opinion is that on this occasion he made the passage to Artemisium in a boat.”

“Nothing mortal travels so fast as these Persian messengers. The entire plan is a Persian invention; and this is the method of it. Along the whole line of road there are men (they say) stationed with horses, in number equal to the number of days which the journey takes, allowing a man and horse to each day; and these men will not be hindered from accomplishing at their best speed the distance which they have to go, either by snow, or rain, or heat, or by the darkness of night.”