LizzieD 2011*5

The Waking

I strolled across
An open field;
The sun was out;
Heat was happy.

This way! This way!
The wren's throat shimmered,
Either to other,
The blossoms sang.

The stones sang,
The little ones did,
And flowers jumped
Like small goats.

A ragged fringe
Of daisies waved;
I wasn't alone
In a grove of apples.

Far in the wood
A nestling sighed;
The dew loosened
Its morning smells.

I came where the river
Ran over stones:
My ears knew
An early joy.

And all the waters
Of all the streams
Sang in my veins
That summer day.

~Theodore Roethke





LizzieD: 2011*1
LizzieD: 2011*2
LizzieD: 2011*3
LizzieD: 2011*4

BEST FROM THE FIRST HALF OF '11
All Clear
Ex Libris
Devices and Desires and Evil for Evil
Cloud Atlas
A GLASTONBURY ROMANCE
Oryx and Crake
The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society
Our Tragic Universe
Dissolution, Dark Fire, and Sovereign
Brooklyn
The Seas
The Invisible Bridge
Letters Between Six Sisters
The Memory of Love

(* denotes a review on the book page)

JULY
42. Cold Comfort Farm* - rural Sussex and a sensible woman - as funny as everybody claims
43. Unnatural Death - Lord Peter Wimsey - three - We have the body and the suspect, but was it murder?
44. Pagans and Christians* - a macrocosm - Western religion, second through fourth centuries C.E.
45. A Visit from the Goon Squad - for Orange July - Life's a network and Time's a goon - clever and beyond
46. The Magicians and Mrs. Quent - pastiche, magick (!) - no clarity in authorial intention
47. Sacred Hunger - 18th century slave trade - a restrained epic
48. The Shadows in the Street - Simon Serrailler mystery #6 - wonderful characters, concerns, plot!
49. Fingersmith - for Orange July - two motherless girls in Victorian England - cross, double-cross, cross some more

AUGUST
50. The Constant Nymph* - for AV/AA - living or not with a musical genius or two - pretty good
51. Bidding for Love - pure chick lit - a Sunday afternoon confection
52. The Wise Man's Fear - day 2 Kingkiller Chronicles - great fantasy!
53. Bel Canto - music, romance, genius, tragedy - love the writing; love the characters; LOVE it!
54. The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club - Lord Peter #4 - a reread - not a favorite but good enough

NEW IN JULY

The Little Stranger ✔ - PBS
The Shadows in the Street ✔ - PBS
This Body of Death - AMP
The Glass Room ✔ - Kindle sale
At Lady Molly's, Casanova's Chinese Restaurant, The Kindly Ones ✔ - Kindle sale
The Sheik - Kindle freebie
Matterhorn - PBS (Pat!)
The Tenderness of Wolves - PBS (Bonnie!)
Explorer ✔ - PBS
Transition - PBS
Janet Frame; An Autobiography - PBS
The Brutal Telling - Kindle sale
Embassytown ✔ - Kindle
The Shanghai Moon ✔ - PBS

Reserved for Stasia. . .

huffing and puffing to keep up!

LOL, Stasia!

The BBC Jackson Brodie series is called Case Histories. And, the books are (1) Case Histories, (2) One Good Turn, (3) When Will There Be Good News? and (4) Started Early, Took My Dog. I think the series just covers the first three books.

Hi Peggy.

Hi, Stasia, Judy, and Pat!!! Thanks for the "Case Histories" confirmation, Pat.
I'm off to swim before I come back and fiddle more with the image that WILL NOT appear in the first message no matter what I do to it. I still haven't found the right poem or quotation, so this remains a work in progress.
Very Funny, Ms. Acre.

I've got the BBC Brodies on DVD and am saving them to watch on a very hot day or one where I'm in the dumps. The baby brother of a friend of mine plays Jackson Brodie, so double reason to watch them!

I'm curious about your research unearthed about Robin Lane Fox. He does have a reasonably high rep among classicists, despite the general popularity of his books (usually, television historians attract a bit of envious scorn...)

The series just covers the first three books and is called "Case Histories"...

Hi Peggy!

There's also Kate Atkinson's first book, Behind the Scenes at the Museum which I found highly enjoyable.

I also enjoyed listening to Mayflower, although it's a dense listen - I would imagine it to be a dense read too. I was amazed at how much I didn't know about the early English and Dutch settlers to America.

#7: Well, I had to say something, didn't I?

Hey, Peggy, I had the same problem getting engaged with Mrs. Quent that you did. The Regency section at the first kept throwing me off, I enjoyed the Jane Eyre segment more, and then it seemed like Beckett was finally starting to write more with her own voice in the last section but I was underwhelmed. I do have to say that I enjoyed the sequel, The House on Durrow Street, more than the first book.

Well apparently my next book will be One Good Turn and then When Will There Be Good News? in September so I'm all ready for the series in October. Life is good :)

Isn't life good, Bonnie!!! I have a copy of Shadows in the Street coming from PBS ( or so I hope! It's taking a long time to get here), so that's my next mystery must-read. After that though, it's back to Jackson B. Karen, I own Behind the Scenes at the Museum, but it is yet another I've never gotten to. I'm not sure that I can manage Mayflower and Sacred Hunger at the same time. Harrowing history! It is, and I am.
Stasia, you may say anything you please and I'll pay attention. But you should go back and post me a note.
I guess it's not unreasonable that Jackson Brodie might be somebody's baby brother - nifty that you have that connection. I haven't been able to google anything satisfactory in my RLF research (!), Suzanne. The only negative criticism I've found is from somebody who has a dog in the Constantine fight (i.e. Constantine was/was not instrumental {or totally responsible} in the propagation and acceptance of Christianity. My impetus to dig is yielding to an impetus to read Unauthorized Version. I might have enough general information there to draw a conclusion of my own. On the other hand, I don't want to tackle him again for a month or two anyway.
Roni, I was so very satisfied to finish *M&MM* and put it up on PBS. (I don't mean that I'm there yet. That was my intention.) Now you're giving me second thoughts about keeping the book. If I came across *Durrow Street* I would probably get it, but now I don' t know. Pfui.

Jim (drneutron) read the sequel first in March and I read it in late April (http://www.librarything.com/topic/111092#2656521) after rereading the first book. I actually liked the first book better the second time around, too. Jim wrote
"Mrs Quent and sequels are indeed pretty good. Roni's reviews line up pretty well with my thoughts on 'em. Although, I read the first 2/3 of Mrs Quent as homage, intentionally done that way. It's true, though, that the second was better."
and I replied
"Hey, Jim, I meant to search your thread out to see what you had written about The House on Durrow Street. I didn't mind the Jane Eyre as homage, but the first section of Mrs. Quent didn't seem like it could decide if it were Jane Austen (Ivy and her family) or Georgette Heyer (Mr. Rafferdy and his social friends) and the two really don't mix that well."

It's funny too, isn't it? I mean, they are the same period and roughly about the same situations. I'm about 50 pp from the end, so I'm going to read the reviews. Thanks for the link, Roni. I'm really having to push to make myself finish though.

There are too many good books out there to read--if the ending doesn't get you, don't bother with the sequel.

Hi, Peggy! I have the thread starred.

Relieved to hear that RLF has passed muster! In the absence of time travel, I wonder whether it's possible to assert either POV re Constantine? It's a bit like debating whether the Berlin wall would have come tumbling down without Gorbachev. You can never really test the hypothesis!

Yes, my friend Brent is a former lawyer who then launched a software business & sold it. One of his older brothers works for a pharmaceutical company; Jason is the family maverick, I gather. Though I think he would do well as Jackson Brodie. I still have the DVDs sitting here; am not allowing myself to be distracted during a work week from hell! (Two articles due on Monday; am hoping this marks an end to the dearth of work which has been really scaring me.)

Ha, Suz! You can never really test the hypothesis, but I'm sure that it doesn't have to be an either/or thing. At any rate, I am humbled by his scholarship although I realize that's not saying much.
Terri, I'm happy to see you here. Your thread always has a star here even though I don't drop out of lurk often to comment...
And Roni, you're exactly right about books and time. I finished *M&MM* and remained underwhelmed. At the same time, I know that if a copy of *House/Durrow Street* drops anywhere near me, I'll grab it and try again. So.

THE MAGICIANS AND MRS. QUENT by Galen Beckett
First, Galen Beckett is apparently a man as his name would indicate. This is one that would certainly have fooled me in the 'Male or Female' quiz that we looked at a month or so ago. Obviously, I was attracted by the book as a prime candidate for summer fun. I can see how somebody else might be carried away and along into a second book and a third. Alas, it didn't work for me although I read every last word hoping for some magick of my own.
The question that inspired the book was "What if there was a fantastical cause underlying the social constraints and limited choices confronting a heroine in a novel by Jane Austen or Charlotte Bront&eumlaut;?" The answer was to take plot elements from Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, Jane Eyre, and "The Turn of the Screw" and weave them into a pastiche with magick (always a red flag for gimmick for me), both belonging to male and female. Add to this revolutionary fervor and the threat of "The Ashen," evil beings from another dimension, and the result was just too much for Beckett to handle - at least for me. I was reminded of the criticism attributed to Samuel Johnson; "Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good."

Great Samuel Johnson quote.

I think I'll pass on The Magicians and Mrs. Quent.

I was thinking about a Galen the other day - a junior high school friend. The first male person I ever saw wear a pink shirt - this was in 1965. Totally shocking.

Hope you have a great day.

Oh my goodness, Karen! Do you think that he could have turned into THE Galen???
Thanks for the great day - I hope it will be. I just got a copy of The Shadows in the Street from PBS, and I do believe I'll do some reading this afternoon! My copy of This Body of Death came today too, so I'm set for mysteries for a bit.

Glad you managed to get the picture at the top of your thread Peggy, I like it :-) Many of your top reads are in my TBR pile or in my wishlist which bodes well!

I think I will leave The Magicians and Mrs Quent as low priority on my wishlist after your comments.

Not a chance, unless he's using a pseudonym. I googled him and he's in San Francisco doing computer things. I hadn't thought of Galen in years and years.

I adore the Simon Serrailler series by Susan Hill and have them all. So well written and such great integration with his family, especially Cat. Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!

I'm waiting for the second Lynley/Havers - I just got acknowledgement that the second book has been shipped from a Bookmoocher. By the time I finish the second J.D. Robb (Glory in Death) which I just started 45 minutes ago, it will arrive and then I can go back and forth between the two series. Bliss.

Hi, Heather! I had an extra space in there somewhere was my only problem..... We do seem to like a lot of the same things, don't we?
Karen, I guess I have to start the J.D. Robb series sometime with you and Stasia as such devoted fans. I swore I'd never read another *SS* after the first one, but she writes so well that I was sucked in again. That Simon is a piece of work!

I'm only on the second J.D. Robb book but for light entertainment of the futuristic, police procedural, and steamy romance type, it's fantastic.

I always want to smack Simon when it comes to women, and cheer him on when it comes to his relationship with his sister Cat and her family.

You've got Simon pegged, Karen. I think it has to be because he's Richard's son no matter what he feels about it. These are such rich characters that they're very discussable. On the other hand, I'm already fearful for Abi, and I haven't read even 100 pages yet.

I've got you starred again, Peggy. I liked your poem but I'm puzzled a little by the phrase "Happy Heat". I don't think that Roethke could have experienced a heat wave (or "dome" as it is being called) like we're experiencing!

I like it as much when there is a book I don't want to add to my list as I do when there is. Thanks, Peggy!

Ain't that the truth, Jeanne!
Donna, Roethke was a Michigan boy. Maybe he wrote about happy heat when he was teaching at Bennington. I understand that Vermont is rather cool!! (N.C. is SO hot today and so humid that stepping outside is like being wrapped in a hot, wet towel preparatory to being shaved, not that I ever was, you understand.)

Oh my, what rich phrasing Peggy!

8 Does that mean I can get the Brodies on DVD somehow????

I can vouch for the coolness of VT -- hot as it gets in the day, it is very very very rare for the temp to stay above 70 at night. Also, usually sometime between about now and early August there is a definitive storm after which it never gets truly sultry again..... and I've worn turtlenecks most of the summer once or twice in 30 years.... with not even the tiniest interest in say, going swimming.

Sorry about posting on yr old thread, I got so excited reading about Brodie that I leapt without looking, so to speak...

Hello, Dearie. Love the poem. I need to read more Roethke.

>31 sibylline:: Lucy, I remember reading a Suz message somewhere, that she has a region-free DVD so she can play discs from overseas. So if you can do the same, then I guess you could order them from Amazon UK or some such. Alternatively, the series will air on PBS Masterpiece beginning October 16 for 3 weeks.

I'm so happy to have visitors, Bonnie, Lucy, Gail, and Laura. I don't have anything to say tonight except that this is a good place to be!

*Waving*

You know, Peggy, I didn't even think about Simon's relationships with women being about his being Richard's son. Good, very good, point.

I wave back to Stasia.
The thing is though, Karen, that Richard was able to maintain two commitments to women, but Simon ------ !!!!! I'm not far into The Shadows in the Street, but it's a winner already. I do recommend this series to anyone who can forgive Hill for playing free and loose with characters that you have come to care about.

Richard does maintain commitments, but his first wife was estranged from him even though living in the same house and his second wife works around him and lovingly manipulates him because of his emotional .... distance isn't quite right.... repression is probably better. And why doesn't he love Simon like his other children? I really don't get the since-he's-not-a-doctor-he's-worthless schtick.

All her books in this series are winners. You're right - she doesn't keep things easy or safe for her characters at all. I'm still struck with her handling of Cat's husband's cancer.

I'm still hoping that Simon will find someone.

You romantic, you! Yes, I hope that Simon will find someone too - and recognize her when he does. And you are right about Richard, but he was able to bring himself to marry, and I don't want to say anything else for fear of spoiling somebody else's experience. In this book Julia and Cat are thinking about R's relationship with Cat's children - still distant - but Hannah, at least thinks he's funny.
Meanwhile, TWO books from PBS in the mail today, both from 75'ers. My GREAT thanks to Pat for posting Matterhorn to me and to Bonnie for sending me her copy of The Tenderness of Wolves. Happy DAY!!!

Well, yes, I am a serious romantic. I love romance novels, and any time there's even a speck of sparkage in general fiction or mysteries, I always imagine it's going to work out and everybody's going to live happily ever after.

I am happily humming "books in the mail" to a variety of tunes. Always exciting to see those packages, get them in the house, work around the myriad of tape and packaging, and lo and behold! Another Book! Enjoy the bounty.

I have Matterhorn sitting on my shelves staring at me reproachfully. I bookmooched it, of course!

It will rise to top of stack one of these days when I'm not so frail emotionally - I've heard it's a gut-wrenching book.

Found and starred your new thread Peggy. Love the poem. It's set in the very early morning, so maybe "heat was (still) happy" then.
Where I live the heat has disappeared some days ago and made room for lots of rain and low temperatures. There seems to be nothing in between "unbearably hot" and "too cold for the season".

Hi Peggy, I always learn something new from your thread! I'm excited to hear about the Brodie series. I've got to get busy and read the third book.

I'm glad to see you Karen, Nathalie, and Jan! PBS is being very good to me these days, and after having connection problems from AT&T in the area all day, I'm delighted to be here to greet visitors and get my new books added!
Isn't that a lovely poem? My favorite verse is The stones sang/The little ones did,/And flowers jumped/Like small goats. The qualification of which stones sang just satisfies me to the tips of my toes (which don't sing at all).
Jan, I am behind you in the Brodies. We have plenty of time.

SACRED HUNGER by Barry Unsworth

This is a big, emotionally wrenching book, but I loved it. The latest reviews of it are pretty good, so I'll just note down a word or two here. It divides into three sections. in 1752 William Kemp builds and equips The Liverpool Merchant as a slave ship, hoping to save his fortune, while his son and heir falls in love and courts a bride. His wife's nephew, Matthew Paris, agrees to sail as the ship's doctor, having lost his wife while he was in prison for writing speculation about evolution.
In the second section we see events on shipboard and in West Africa over Matthew's shoulder. It's harrowing enough without getting down in the hold with the slaves and feeling their despair first-hand. I think that this was a wise choice. Occasionally, we are returned to England to see what is happening in the life of the Kemps.
The third section deals with Matthew and survivors in a community in south Florida. Enough about that!
On the one hand, I thought the restraint in describing the plight of the slaves and of the crew was very effective. On the other hand, I thought that Unsworth could have dealt with his theme more subtly. The writing is skillful without ever calling attention to itself. I'm very glad to have been able to read this book and recommend it strongly.

Hi Peggy. I went to put Sacred Hunger on my wishlist but found that it was already there (because of a hot review last September). Now I just have to get out of my book funk so I can start reading some of those books on my wishlist!

I found Sacred Hunger at the Thrift store about 3 weeks ago and added it to my library. I also have other books by Unsworth, Morality Play, After Hannibal, and The Ruby in Her Navel in my library and in my TBR stack.

I read Land of Marvels a while back and thought it a wonderful book. As I recall, the writing was very powerful and he was able to build to a climax like nobody's business.

Glad you liked it, Peggy!

Hi, Pat and Karen. Pat, how much does the aftermath of Matterhorn contribute to your book funk, I wonder. With something as powerful as *SH* I believe I would be reluctant to pick up something else for awhile if I were not already reading other things. I find I'm not right ready to dive into *M*, and I have been chafing to get to it.
Karen, you whet my appetite to see what else Unsworth has done. I'm a fan already.

I already have Sacred Hunger in the BlackHole but sadly, none of my local libraries carries the book. I do own another of Unsworth's books, so I need to bump it up the stack some.

I read and enjoyed Unsworth's Morality Play, which was loaned to me by a friend. I would seriously consider reading more of his work, and Sacred Hunger sounds worthwhile.

I read Sacred Hunger ages ago and don't remember much about it now Peggy except that it dealt with a slave ship and that I loved it. I think maybe I should reread it, since its probably been almost 20 years.

Stasia, do you want to borrow my copy? You know that you have but to ask.
Terri, Morality Play is the other Unsworth that I own, and I'm looking forward to it in the next while. Ah, Bonnie, I'm sure that it would come back to you immediately. That's the trouble about aging - there's so much new stuff to read and the old stuff was so wonderful that it calls us back, and there's just not enough time. I believe somebody else may have mentioned this. Off to play the piano for the Methodists this morning!

Perhaps after I return your copy of The Memory of Love :)

Peggy, I understand the term "happy heat" better after a few days in CO. It was 95 degrees here in Denver yesterday but it wasn't the same suffocating heat that we get in Missouri.

I bought Sacred Hunger the last time we were in Colorado. You've made me want to read it!

Hi Peggy. Happy Sunday to you!

Just dropping by to let you know that I loved O Pioneers!, which I "borrowed" from you for this month's TIOLI!

I am going to have to trudge off and put Sacred Hunger on my wishlist......

Cait, I'm delighted that you enjoyed O Pioneers!, which I confess that I've never read. Glad one of us is getting the good stuff out of my library!!
Please do put *SH* on it, Lucy. Well worth your time! Stasia, ANY time! Donna, that's an interesting thought. I was picturing spring warmth somewhere way north of here..... Hi, Linda. It was!

THE SHADOWS IN THE STREET by Susan Hill
This is Simon Serrailler mystery #5, and it is top-notch. Somebody in Lafferton is strangling prostitutes, or maybe it's more than one person. The cathedral has a new dean with a bossy wife and his #2 man who are bent on reducing the traditional service to happy-clappy claptrap. Simon's sister Cat is finding her way into life following the death of her husband from cancer. Lots of complexity and many complex characters (including a woman with severe bi-polar disorder) for one little mystery! I had issues with the dénouement which I'd love to discuss with somebody else who has read this. Otherwise, a worthy and beautifully written installment in a worthy and beautifully written series.

Somehow this series has been off my radar until now. Sounds interesting.

Oh, Jeanne. I recommend it warmly, but I have to say that after the first in the series I swore I'd never read another one. I can't tell you more than that except that I couldn't help myself. Hill is such a fine writer that she pulled me back, and I'm glad!

I'm definitely a fan of the series, for sure. You really need to read 'em...

*waving* Peggy, you are hard to keep up to! I'm going to have to put O Pioneers! on the list - it's popping up everywhere!

I'm glad that you agree about Hill, Jim! I guess I need to bump *OP* higher on Mt. Bookpile too.
For right now, I'm caught in the adventures of Maud and Sue (or do I mean Sue and Maud?) and finding it hard to read anything other than Fingersmith.

Hi Peggy! I adore the Serrailler series. I agree that continuing after the first one was easy after the initial ___ but, wow, just wow. (I don't want to give anything away.) Hill doesn't mind ...surprising her readers. I've got the paperback edition of The Shadows in the Street preordered on Amazon so I have that to look forward to in September.

And now I see you're reading Fingersmith!? Lucky you - and no other book stands a chance until you wrap it up. Enjoy - I loved it!

I have the first book in the Simon Serrailler series patiently waiting on my nightstand for me to get to it - one of these days.

See, Joanne agrees about Hill too! Give it a try, Stasia! And you're right about *FS* - I couldn't read anything else, so I'm doubly glad to have finished it this morning.

FINGERSMITH by Sarah Waters

What a wild ride! I do believe that this is what is called a plot-driven novel, but the historical details feel so right and the characters are so true to their bizarre background that it comes off as something more than a literary thriller. What more, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty dazzled. This is one that I must be nearly the last person on LT to read, but in case other stragglers come by, here's what it's about: thieves, an inheritance, machinations to steal said inheritance, pornography, Lesbian love, family love, an insane asylum, betrayals, hanging - all set in Victoria's vibrant, squalid England.

You're not the last, alas......

This is one that I must be nearly the last person on LT to read - nope. I haven't even heard of any of her books. They're all on my Bookmooch wishlist now. They sound great.

Oh Peggy you bring back memories of my swift reading (how could it be anything but, since you find yourself flying through the text---it's that compelling). You know when they pose the question "If you could, which book would you love to read again for the first time?" Uh huh. Oh yeah.

All Bonnie and I can say is that Lucy and Karen should choose this one for a time when they want to get lost in a book and not come up for air until it spits them out. (Karen, is the Orange Prize on your radar? I'll go to your profile page to see whether you need an invitation to the Orange place. Over the years they have longlisted very few losers. Certainly, the ones I've read since I discovered the prize in '08 have been worth my time.)

My next F book is supposed to be Wolf Hall but then it can be Fingersmith. That sound OK? Then I'm going to wallow in Rothfuss.

Lucy, how can you go wrong????
In fact, it's been almost a week what with one thing and another, so I think I'll go wallow in Rothfuss.

I'm currently wallowing in Rothfuss. My word, it's a doorstop.

Isn't it though, Morphidae? (Except that mine is on Kindle. If I were not accustomed to looking at the Complete Dickens, I would be intimidated by the 19,837 lines!) I had almost pulled out of it when he was not enrolled in the university, but now I'm here at LT only in mid-wallow, hoping and trusting that Kvothe will cure the Maer.
Doesn't that sound appealing to the non-Rothfussites?

I have no idea what you are all talking about, so I must be a non-Rothfussite. (just checked around a bit and realize Rothfuss is an author. Hmm. As if I need another new author to worry about right now.)

Hi Peggy, I've now got you starred and am over the moon to visit your thread amidst a Rothfuss wallowing conversation. You may have just tipped the scales for me to crack on and get this one finished. Kvothe is such a great character.

Oh, and definitely check out The Bartimaeus Trilogy by Jonathan Stroud, one of my favourite series.

Thanks, Kiwi. I really loved the first 3 books in the *Song of Fire and Ice*, but I could have shot him for what he did with the 4th book, and this next one doesn't sound a lot better from the reviews.
Kvothe, though, is a great character. I reread the *Wind* in a day to be prepared for *WMF*, and it was good the second time too.
For some reason I've avoided *Bartimaeus*, but I'll certainly check it out again. I like fantasy a lot, but I'm about to go into overload, and I still want to do my summer HP book. I'm up to *½blood Prince*...........
I can't remember where we were talking G.G. Kaye, but I adore his books except for his initial trilogy. Tigana is tops - my favorite stand-alone - and he followed that with several that are almost as good and another few that are really good.

This isn't about books, but my friend sent the link from her daughter and I thought it was mildly funny.
Learn to Pick Your Battles I believe I taught all three of them in high school!

That was great! Although it is worrisome why anyone thought anyone would ever want an enormous metal chicken.

I loved Tigana best also.... and one other, name presently escaping me. I couldn't stand any of the *Fire and Ice* books although I diligently read them until about 1/2way through book 4.

I don't like the Bartimaeus series, though I can't coherently or defensibly explain - the characters are all just so incredibly nasty!

I've got to get to that Susan Hill series. I have the first waiting on my shelf . . . . maybe for September Series & Sequels. Serrailler should fit right in.

>78 sibylline: I didn't like the Bartimaeus series for the same reason. Unlikeable characters.

I know -- it's not that characters have to be likeable, exactly, I mean Emma Bovary, Raskalnikov, etc) but ..... it grew tedious for me, no pathos or anything to make me feel interested.... my empathic self, (a big part of what might keep one reading even when a character is not agreeable - I might dislike the person, but feel pity or compassion for them?) gradually wandered away somewhere toward the end of Book 2.

I didn't even manage to get to book 2. I honestly didn't care what happened to any of the characters after the first one.

Hi to Lucy, Terri, and Morphidae. So I wonder what people do like about the series? As I say, if I can finish *WMF* this millennium, I'm probably out of the fantasy business for a bit unless I try the next HP.
(Back to GGKaye - I liked *Arbonne* and *Lions* too (one more than the other, but I can't recall which now), and really liked the 2 Byzantine novels Sailing to Sarantium and whatever the 2nd one was called.) And I like the Tad Williams *Memory, Sorrow and Thorn* books, the first fantasy that I thought wasn't a complete Tolkien rip-off.

People who like snark would like the series.

I finished the doorstop that is WMF. Good story. Probably could have been cut by 250 pages and not lost much, but a good, solid story.

Something fun to try is the Green Dragoneer's 1001 Fantasy Books to Read Before You Are Turned into a Newt put together by yours truly and nominated and voted upon by the members. I created a member library for it: http://www.librarything.com/profile.php?view=1001Fantasy

That's quite a helpful list, Morphidae. The votes were all over the place!
I looked at the "borrow" list and found Paradise Lost as the second thing recommended for me (Gulliver was #1). Paradise Lost???

I liked the first Bartimaeus book, not so much the second, and really did not enjoy the third at all, but thought I was alone with all the praise for the series I've seen. And it was, in great part, because of how unlikeable Nathaniel became. And I was shocked, shocked at the resolution!

From the profile page you can go to the wiki which has a list by votes. Or you can sort by tags and it is set up so it will sort by votes.

Hi Peggy. Happy Saturday to you. It is a lovely, lovely day here in NE PA. The weather is perfect!

I enjoyed your comments re. Fingersmith and I'll try to read this asap.

Memo to self: read Barry Unsworth.

And yes, I have a code-free/multi-region DVD player -- very affordable, and probably the single best investment I've ever made. UK DVDs are one of the few things that are cheap over there, and even the shipping is affordable. And Amazon offers fab discounts. So I spend maybe 15 pounds to buy and ship a multi-DVD set, or about $28. Bargain. I got the entire Cadfael mysteries for 20 pounds plus shipping... The only thing that costs money is my only major addiction -- the BBC series known as "Spooks" over there and MI-5 here. Happily, got series 9 for a b-day prez... Series 10 will start to air in January.

Hi, Linda!
Hi, Suzanne. It becomes completely clear to me that you, like Stasia, are one of the Sleepless. I bet that if I had your DVD player that I could get *I, Claudius* and *Reggie Perrin* and some of my other beloved series for almost nothing. Not happening.

Sadly, yes; here I am, at 1:30 AM, sleepless. Literally! It's a good thing I have books to entertain me. A friend of mine has eye problems that make it hard for him to concentrate for more than half an hour at a time; he has become addicted to television (he admires the writing on some of the cable stuff, like House). I'd rather be up for hours with books that television!!

I would rather be up for hours with books than television too!

I just finished my first Cadfael mystery book and quite enjoyed it. I have my DH looking out for the series--the BBC does such a good job with its adaptations.

Oh I've enjoyed reading your thread today!

Alas I am one of the sleepy. I get in bed, raring to read and am snoring so fast it's almost embarrassing. Every once in a while I stay awake reading a long time, but I actually wish it was a little more often.

Morph -- I love your lists!

Catching up but I have to ask, did you really read the Name of the Wind in a day?? Wow, that is impressive. And just to add my 5 cents worth to the Bartimaeus debate, the human characters are mostly unlikeable but it is the endlessly cheeky Bartimaeus that stole the show for me and is what I loved so much.

What a lovely thing to arrive and find visitors! TV puts me to sleep a lot faster than even the worst of bad books. A main reason that I was looking forward to aging was that old people are supposed to need less sleep. I thought I'd spend all the new time reading. Hasn't happened.
Jeanne, I read Cadfael faithfully as they were coming out, but then the buying got ahead of the reading. That is a series I haven't read in years but one I can't quite bring myself to put on PBS. They're very formulaic, you'll find, but I loved the formula.
I shouldn't have said that I read *NotW* in a day. I RE-read it in a day, but I'm sure I skipped the slow parts or parts I didn't especially love the first time. I'm glad to see a defender of Bartimaeus - I know that there are a lot of you around.
Today I spent my reading time with The Prefect. About 200 pp in it's beginning to jell, and I'm liking it a lot.
(And I didn't speak to Roni earlier or say, Suz, that you should get to B. Unsworth without fail. I'm happy to have a copy of Morality Play that I can get to sometime soon. I even know right where it is!)
And with my rant about TV, I'm off to spend an hour with my mother and watch Big Brother, a sleazy, predictable pleasure that should leave me guilty but doesn't!

Just stopping by to catch up and say hi, Peggy!

Hi, Terri! Come back any time.

>96 LizzieD:: Peggy, what you said about getting old and needing less sleep, I've been thinking the same thing for years. Now that I'm up several times during the night, I do read myself back to sleep on occasion, which is certainly time I wouldn't have had before.

Hmmmm. I did stay awake from 3:00 to 4:00 this morning for no reason at all. If I could read without disturbing DH, I would. That bears thinking about......

I was up then too -- I noticed the sky was dark and absolutely starry bright and went out for awhile. Saw three shooting stars and what may have been flashes of northern lights -- it was a bit hard to tell. In fact, hmmm, I'm going to go over to the local VT weather folks to see what they say about it. It can't have been lightning as there was not a cloud anywhere.

I'll concede Bartimaeus was entertaining, but he just wasn't quite enough for me..... maybe in a different mood or at another time?

Oh I absolutely agree with you about needing less sleep as we age. The problem is I stay up late reading and hubby goes to bed early and gets up at an ungodly early hour. We're both getting less sleep but at different ends of the day. LOL

Oh dear. I only said I hoped to need less sleep. Last night was unusual. More often I'm good for the whole 8 hours. I wish it were not so.......

Hi Peggy!

Although recently I've been sleeping on a daybed in the parlour because of my back, when I'm in the bedroom and husband is asleep and I wake up and can't get back to sleep, I tippy toe out (making sure book is in hand), and read until it's either time to get ready for work or I can fall back asleep on the couch.

I finished the 3rd Elizabeth George Well-Schooled in Murder and -wow! a wonderful book. I've pulled out A Suitable Vengence and will probably start it tonight.

And, separate, but related to stickles - I looked at the recipe you referenced on my challenge thread and have bought pickling lime (slaked lime), the only thing I didn't have in the house. I am thrilled with the idea of them. I might start some as soon as Thursday. Have to get past daughter's 18th birthday on Wednesday - it seems pretty rude to stink up the house with vinegar on someone's birthday when they hate that smell.

This morning I was up from 2:30 to 4 reading. Sigh. I'm a tad worn right now. Work's been... stressful.... but only 26 minutes more until it's time to leave for the day.

Good grief, Karen! I guess you are "a tad worn right now." Even at the loss of reading time, I hope you sleep better tonight. I still haven't made the stickles. You make me ashamed.
I do believe that Well-schooled in Murder was where George took off for me. I thought A Great Deliverance was great but was less impressed with her second effort. I have to say that the ones you're getting to now are my favorites - Missing Joseph and Playing for the Ashes may be my top Georges. I did buy a copy of This Body of Death, and I'm hoping she's back to the good stuff.

Peggy, I'm not sure if I need less sleep, but I surely don't get as many consecutive hours at night as I used to. I find myself napping in my chair after work a lot these days (often dropping off with my face in a book ;). I tend to wake up in the middle of the night, too. When I can't get back to sleep, I often creep downstairs and read a bit.

102 Bonnie, your household sounds like ours -- hubby turns in early, and I'm more of a night owl. We've still got a teenager at home and his hours are midway between mine and his dad's.

ok my baby i love!! for ever

Just now I was wondering why I'm so sleepy, and then I came here, and remembered, oh yeah, I was awake for an hour in the middle of the night star-gazing!

I talk to Stasia about sleep all the time. I must think it's important. I also caught a quick nap this afternoon, Lucy. The longer nap Sunday is probably the reason that I woke up in the middle of last night. Actually, Bonnie and Terri, it's my DH who is the night owl. I'm good until 11:00 or 11:30, but that's it. And to sneak in early morning reading, I'll have to find some reading-in-bed light because if I beep the house alarm to get out of the bedroom, I'll wake him.
I'm reading all over the place these last few days. It's fun, but it doesn't make any real headway. Today it was back to Mayflower just to see whether I remembered what had been going on and The Constant Nymph, which I'll continue tonight, and The Wise Man's Fear. I've read some in *WM'sF* every day, but it's such a monster that 20 or 30 pp don't add up to much.
Terri, I always collapsed for a nap when I got home from school. Then it was stagger up for supper, speak to my ma, and fall asleep again before reading more than a paragraph. SO happy to be retired!!!

109 because if I beep the house alarm to get out of the bedroom, I'll wake him.

Heavens, we'd never survive with that level of alarm coverage armed when we're home, the way we move about the house at odd hours. It would be like being prisoners in our own room. Besides, there'd be too many beeping trips to the bathroom! I figure as long as nobody opens/breaks a window or manages to open a door to the outside or gets into the basement, we're probably safe . . . not sure how else anyone would get in.

I read last night from 2-3, following a trip to the bathroom. The ebook is backlit, so I don't disturb DH.

Ah, the joys of sleeping alone (most of the time!) But my Kindle does have a built in little light.

I became a light sleeper in my 30s after always having been a heavy sleeper; now the slightest sound wakes me up. With cats in the house, you can imagine how choppy my sleep is...

Hi Peggy -- I'm just stopping by to say hello. Hope you have a great week!

Hi again, Terri. (We can get to the br without beeping!) And hi to Jeanne, Suzanne, and Anne. I wish I were reading enough to comment on something. As it is, I'll echo the wish to you all for a good week.

Hi Peggy, just catching up. Yep, cats and sleep don't mix. Just when we think we've convinced our cat not to wake us up at 3am (just because it's light outside doesn't mean it's daytime) she starts doing it again. Probably just keeping us on our toes.

I don't have an ebook but I keep a tiny LED torch by my bed so I can continue reading even after my husband is fast asleep. I use reading to relax and if I don't read until that point then I stare into the gloom for hours and get slowly grumpier and grumpier.. well, not now, hence the wee torch. Tiny lifesaver really.

Heather, when our Chibby doesn't bite us good morning, we oversleep, but she is not usually ready to be up at 3:00!
Funny you should say, Leonie. I found a little "read in bed" light that somebody gave me for Christmas a couple of years ago. Now I'm primed for the next bout of early morning wakefulness. I'm interested to see whether I can avoid waking DH. I know what you mean about the need to read especially at night.

Yippeeee. I got My Animal Life by Maggie Gee from July's ER list. I haven't read any of her novels, but I thought this memoir/autobiography sounded good, so I'm happy so far. Now if Fasting for Ramadan from June would also get here, I'd be a happy reader.

You already got your July ER book? My goodness, aren't you lucky! I just got the notification yesterday that I even got a July ER book (All Cry Chaos by Leonard Rosen).

Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!

I'm mentally gearing up for stickles... I'll start them Friday or Saturday.

Have a wonderful day, Peggy.

Oh no! I'm sorry. I don't mean that I have it in hand; I mean that they notified me that I will get one.
Congratulations on your book too, Karen.
I can't wait to hear the stickle story!

Gads, I am 'way too literal for my own good. Stupid me. Of course you only got notification.

The stickle story will commence soon. Getting the lime was the big deal, but husband and I went out Saturday for lunch and I persuaded him to go to Siler City for lunch instead of Pittsboro - there's a Walmart in Siler City and I KNEW that they had a huge pickling section and there it was. Bought 2 bags. The garden is producing many cucumbers to pickle, too.

I also have enough tomatoes to make some sauce - make it, freeze it, vacuum-seal it for later on. Yummy.

Well, back to A Suitable Vengeance, I've got 10 minutes more of lunchtime.....

NEW IN AUGUST
(ordered in July)
Lullabies for Little Criminals - PBS
The Engineer of Human Souls - AMP
Aristotle's Children: How Christians, Muslims, and Jews Rediscovered Ancient Wisdom and illuminated the Dark Ages - PBS
The Secret Book of Grazia dei Rossi - PBS
A Spell of Winter - AMP
Cemetery of Angels ✔ - AMP
(real August purchases)
The Gospel of St. Mark - AMP
Ghosts - AMP
Hotel World ✔- PBS

Well, Karen, the stickle story is already excitingly out of the ordinary! (I tried to have lunch in Pittsboro earlier this year, and we ended up at Hardees.....) SIler City always reminds me a a girl named Anne-Marie with the world's thickest southern drawl. During Rat Week in college she was required to get on the PA system in all the upper-classes' dorms and announce, "It's a riht nihce niht for whihte rihce and ihce CREAM."

Hi Peggy: Hope you're doing well. It's been so hot and humid lately that I feel like I've wilted. Highs only in the 80s for the next week or so should help revive me.

All of my reading has been indoors. I hate even sitting out in the yard, in the shade, when it's this hot.

Now I'm committed to making stickles! Seriously, I wouldn't have bought the lime if I wasn't going to make them.

There are several decent places to eat in the Pitt - Flamingo's (okay Greek salad except they don't use Kalamata olives and Italian food and husband loves their chicken fried steak, mashed potatoes with gravy and (soggy) green beans), Elizabeth's (subs, pizza, salads), San Felipe Mexican, Diana's Tex Mex, S&T Soda Shoppe, and off the by-pass at 15-501, The Brewery (upscale seasonal stuff and they brew their own beer). Not a lot of selection, but still.... beggars can't be choosers in the wilds of rural NC.

My husband's mother has a NC accent you can cut with a knife. She went to New York during college (1950-1953) and everybody up there kept asking her to say something - ANYTHING - just so they could hear the accent. I've started calling my husband Beee-yull because that's how it sounds to me when she says his name. And I'm "Kay-ren".

Ugh. I can't imagine sitting outside in this mess. Too hot, too humid. I hate just going to and from the vegetable garden.

Hi, Linda and Karen. I go out to the car and out with the dog and across to my mother's and that's it if the temp is higher than 95°. And it is. Believe me, it is.
I know all about Beee-yull and Kay-ren. I even know about PAY-geee.
(I don't believe we looked at any of the restaurants that you named. I walked into one hopefully and walked out again without sitting.)

*waving* at Peggy

I'm enjoying this!

Peggy -- I've had to fight the urge to run right out and jump in the car and drive down 95! The irony is that from Philly we did drive down your way every couple of years for one reason or another. Now it is so far. Grrrrrrr.

*waving to Stasia and Lucy* ARRRRGH! Lucy, I guess I really don't want you all to have to drive that far either, doggone it.
One of my Readers Vine friends from Baltimore planned her family's Disney World trip so that they spent the night here. We had a wonderful supper and talk, so I know it can be done.
To speak of books, I'm enjoying The Constant Nymph although I haven't decided yet whether it's "just" a romance or something more. She has taken a long time to establish her characters, and at the 2/3 through mark, she's just beginning to work out their fate.
Now I really have to do a little work. Oh well.

I blasted through Kennedy's novels back in the day -- I just loved the way the characters went about living, I'm not sure I cared about anything else much..... I greatly respect writers who can get away with that, not much of a story, just compelling people with solid writing.

Hi PAY-geee... I'm loving the conversation on your thread about southern accents and sleep problems in particular. I'm usually a great sleeper but now I have to sleep with an ear cocked to see what hubby's up to in the middle of the night. He's able to get up and down without help, but is still pretty wobbly. The walker is a godsend after his back surgery. One of these nights I hope to get back to my full nine hours of sleep!

Stickles? Never heard of them. Your thread is educational as well. ;-)

#131: Nine hours of sleep a night? Seriously? Wow. I cannot imagine it.

Good morning to Lucy, Donna, and Stasia! I can easily do 9 hours, and then I'm dynamite. More often I sleep 8 and am O.K. When I was teaching, it was 6½, and I dragged my way through the day. Stasia, you're not natural..............
So, Lucy, here's my take on this Kennedy. I think I preferred The Ladies of Lyndon although this is the one that made her famous.

THE CONSTANT NYMPH by Margaret Kennedy
Briefly, this is about the lives of the women who live with two musical geniuses, an ex-pat Brit and his protogé. The men are wild and selfish beyond imagining, but they're geniuses. So how much is the reader supposed to accept them as such and get on with it? I could never decide, but I did think that the younger man, Lewis Dodd was not particularly well-drawn, practically the stereotype of the brilliant, difficult artist. That marred my enjoyment of the book even though the two females who love him did had the solidity that I look for in characters.
Teresa, Tessa, is 14 when the story begins, and she has loved Lewis all her life as she has reared herself in the "Sanger Circus." Lewis returns her love, but she is such a given in his life that he doesn't realize it. The pairing of such a couple could have been creepy, but it wasn't, mostly because Tessa is wise beyond her years and Lewis is an emotional infant. When their father dies suddenly, the three youngest of his children are taken in hand by their mother's cousin, Florence Churchill. Florence reminded me more of Emma Woodhouse than any other character in literature ever has. She is perfect in her circle, adored by her father (who does, however, see and point out her faults), and totally self-confident. Unfortunately, she and Lewis fall in lust immediately and marry because "It is better to marry than burn." Florence attributes this sentiment to Moses, and this mistake foreshadows the larger mistake of their marriage. Florence sees herself as the perfect wife for an up and coming composer, and she has the social contacts to push his career to success. Lewis, of course, won't be pushed. The rest of the book moves toward a conclusion of sorts.
This book was a best-seller when it was first published, and I do recommend it for anyone interested in the lady's lit of the 1920's or the clash between civilization and nature.

Hi Peggy! Trying to catch up on some posts - I've been full-on summer-ing : ). LOVE the discussions here about school, afternoon naps, falling asleep in big, comfy chairs. I'll bet you're SO happy to be retired - ahh, yes, I too look forward to the experience : ). I see you've ordered Lullabies for Little Criminals - I think you'll really enjoy.

The men are wild and selfish beyond imagining, Really? How odd, Peggy that someone would draw a male character in that way;-) Anyway, the book sounds very, very intriguing and I'm going to add it to my teetering tower.

for your excellent review too.

Hi, Nancy and Bonnie! I do love to talk about retirement. I was born old and retire-able, I think. I certainly wasn't born rich, which is the only other option. Bonnie, did you read liz1564's review of *CN*? She really loved the book and really hated Lewis. We usually see eye to eye, but I couldn't take him seriously. I'd love to hear your take on it, and I thank you kindly for the green thumb!
I may add that I'm enjoying humming bird wars out my window as I type. When I saw the first Star Wars, I immediately thought of the hummers. And that reminds me of the story that one of my bridge friends (and you may understand that to mean life-long friend) told us yesterday. She and her DH went to their unmarried daughter's for supper and arrived before daughter did. DH found red juice in the fridge, poured a glass, took a big swig, and was repulsed - way too sweet! You've guessed that he was drinking her humming bird nectar.

I was born old and retire-able

I had to laugh at that because I also identify with it! I remember a commerical from years ago (can't remember what it was for) but the scene was a graduation party with a bunch of adults clustered around the recent graduate asking him what he was going to be doing and the response was "I think I'm going to look into that retirement thing."

Loved the hummingbird stories and just thumbed your review of The Constant Nymph.

136 & 137> Reminds me of family lore, my SIL famously proclaiming, at about age 9: "I'm not built for work."

Hi, Pat (with a curtsy for a thumb) and Jeanne! There's work, and then there's work. I have to congratulate your SIL for her early perspicuity!

Hello, Ms PAY-gee -- shall have to check out The Constant Nymph.

Do you know if it was ever turned into a play? For some reason, that is ringing some bells. Not sure why. The downside of getting older is that the memory bank is cluttered...

Nice review and thumbs up from me, Peggy - even if you did call me unnatural :)

Play and movie (1940's). I know I've seen the movie.

I have a copy of The Constant Nymph inherited from my husband's mother, but it was definitely her mother's. There's a handwritten note pased to the inside front cover with dates and sixteen women's names. First reader, grandmother Elsie Lowe, got it from May 11th - May 27th, last reader had it December 15th - December 30th. There's no year, but it's clearly very old. The book itself is from 1925. I can just imagine them sitting down and having a bookclub meeting.....

I just may have to read it so I can chime in here.

#143 What a treasure, your copy of The Constant Nymph. I own a very old cookbook that belonged to my great grandmother; there are notes in her handwriting about different recipes - I just cherish it!

How lovely to be visited! Thanks for coming by Suz, Stasia (whose sleep patterns are PRETERNATURAL!), Lucy, Karen, and Nancy! Lucy, I'm glad that you knew about the *CN* play and movie. I wonder whether Hollywood (or was it done somewhere else?) adjusted the ending?
Aren't old books from the family wonderful? Karen, your GrandMIL must have chosen that book for her club since she ended up with it. I think that's fascinating. And to have a cookbook that goes that far back in the family is really wonderful! What's the title, Nancy? (I have my MIL's original *Boston School* cookbook, and I'm proud as can be of that.
This is not even in the nature of a confession. I'm taking a day off from my other stuff and reading Bidding for Love by Katie Fforde. FUN!

Hi Peggy, the cookbook is called A Modern Kitchen Guide (I love that!). It's "A Complete Book of Up-to-Date Recipes and Household Hints" assembled by the Farmer's Advocate and Canadian Countryman in London, Canada. Unfortunately, the first couple of pages are missing, so I don't know the exact publication date, but I'm guessing somewhere around 1920. My great grandmother was married at 14 to my then 30 year old great grandfather; they were still happily together some sixty years later when he passed.

Look, Nancy! Is this it - or similar?

Peggy, that is EXACTLY it!! (Well, mine is a bit different at the bottom - Farmer's Advocate etc instead of National Stone Co). How fabulous - it would never have crossed my mind to even look for it on Amazon! Thank you : ).

Delurking just to wave hi - so you know I'm around. :)

Amazon is such fun.....

Nancy, I'm tickled to have found it! *waving to Jenn* Karen, Amazon has changed my life!! Really!!!!!

Peggy! Nicked by two bb's for the Kennedy books. Great review, thumbed.

I like 9 hours of sleep as well, but get around 6; I come from a family of insomniacs. I run on empty though, if I don't get enough sleep. And read myself to sleep every night; did it as a child/teen, now have done it for years. Fortunately DH could sleep in an operating theater, without meds.

And Amazon has changed my life as well. That and the amazing little tool, the iPod. Whoa! Made me a new woman, actually; music and audiobooks and radio shows old and new...love it.

Hi Gail, and thanks for a visit with thumb!
The iPod is the one thing I don't have and am not sure that I wish for. I've never explored what's available in the classical line, and that's what I listen to. Also, I like to have all of whatever my desire is, so I buy big boxes of CD's. I certainly don't need another thing that eats money........

Well, Peggy, the nice thing about the iPod is that it is very very very easy to import your CDs to it. You can make playlists too, and if there's the one thing you want that you don't have the CD of, you can purchase it through iTunes.

I love my iPod and keep adding husband's CDs to it. It accomodates every mood, every whim immediately.

My daughter's 2010 truck has an iPod docking station so that she can play her iPod while driving - safely. No using earbuds. I wish my 2004 Volvo had an iPod docking station.

Ditto to what Karen says re the iPod - most of my playlists are comprised of CDs I've imported into it. A few months ago I started downloading audiobooks (free at LibriVox.org, borrow from library) and listening to them on my daily walks. LOVE it! I don't read in bed but I often listen to a bit of a story before nodding off.

I wish my car had an iPod docking station too!!

I've actually never listened to music on my iPod. It's all spoken word, mostly radio podcasts, and it makes my walks much more pleasant.

*waving* at Peggy

Love the old book stories. . .

Not that we should be talking you into the iPod - but we have tons of classical on ours. Everything you could wish for (or nearly) is available. I love that it's all here at my fingertips and I don't have to dig out CD's/store CD's anymore. Our ancient vehicles (2000, 2003) don't have docking stations, but we still have tape decks LOL and those cassette tape converter things work great. We just plug the iPod into that and away we go. The downside is I catch myself trying to skip or repeat the radio...

Morning, Karen, Stasia, Nancy, Judy, and Jenn! It all sounds lovely.....maybe someday.
Stasia and I were talking about audio books.. I don't know; I've never much loved being read to, and since I never drive for long distances, I've never listened to a book except for occasional *Radio Reader*s. Now, I love to read aloud and have thought that I should try to market myself as a southern voice. Guess not.

BIDDING FOR LOVE by Katie Fforde
This is my first foray into chick lit, and it was a lot of fun for a Sunday afternoon. By a fluke Flora inherits 51% of a family auction house and goes into the country to see how much she wants to do with it. It is being run by the 49% holder, a handsome but stuffy young man and his frumpy fiancee. They miscalculate, treat Flora like a dumb blonde, and she digs her heels in and stays. Hilarity ensures.

Back to my real stuff - some of which has no more redeeming social value than *BfL*.

Peggy, if you love to read aloud, check out LibriVox.org. All of its audiobooks are free (books in the public domain) and all of them are recorded by volunteer readers - purpose of the organization is make books available to ALL who want to listen/learn, not only those who can afford to do so. I listened to a marvellous Huck Finn recording which was done by a LibriVox volunteer in a wonderful southern voice. You'd be great ... check it out! If you record an audiobook, I will be lined up to listen : ).

Me, too, Peggy - having moved here 20 years ago I mostly still sound like a Californian, although the occasional y'all slips in. Daughter, on the other hand, sounds more Southern than not.

LibriVox sounds wonderful, I've got it bookmarked.

Thanks for the tip, Nancy. I did read an Elizabeth Bowen for a dear friend here, and she tolerated the drawl quite well - no chance of reproducing a British flair. I'm not sure that I would do a whole book except for love or money! On the other hand, I will check out LirbiVox, Lucy. Great idea!
Karen, I wonder whether your family and friends think you talk funny when you visit? Our Mass. friends who still sound like Yankees to me get teased unmercifully when they go home for a visit. And I hope that you don't regret your daughter's accent; you might easily do that.

We moved to New Zealand when our youngest was 3 1/2. So he started school in NZ and had a 100% American-accented family life. Eight years later, his accent changes depending on where he is and who he's speaking to. The acrobats are interesting to watch.

Hi, Jeanne. I love to talk about English as she is spoke. My mother could always tell who I had played with when I came home from school by the way I talked - not vocabulary, but sound. I also laugh at a younger friend who spent about 15 years in England before she came home. Em can switch from something that sounds British to local swamp stomper (those two rhyme in case you didn't know) in a nano-second. Then there is the profoundly deaf child of a dear college friend. She was fitted with a harness when she was 2, and instead of yanking it out of her ears, she beamed the world's most beatific smile and left it in forever. (That always makes me tear up.) Anyway, her little voice was sweet and lovely. The first time friend Sue visited her pre-school, she heard Joy for the first time talking in that breathy voice of the hearing-impaired. Our ears are wonderful things, as is our hard-wired ability to fit in.

What a great anecdote, Peggy. I too am a little chameleon, I can lay on a pretty good Loopner accent from my years in Western NY State, for example and several others from places where I have lived awhile. Jeanne -- my bro and wife moved to Australia and both boys have strong accents to our ears -- although they say their friends say they sound in between. But they love Marmite, so that makes 'em Aussies, no?

But they love Marmite, so that makes 'em Aussies, no?

Um, no - that makes them either British or Kiwis (or possibly South African!?) :)

I can "do" a west-of-Fort Worth twang and a central Louisiana drawl, depending on who's around. Otherwise I THINK I sound like Ellen Degeneris or Tina Fey, until I say "ranch" with that A sounding more like the E in "meh."

>166 sibylline: I can lay on a pretty good Loopner accent from my years in Western NY

What accent is that Lucy? A curious WNYer wants to know ;-)

So, Lucy, Bonnie's question is mine too. Is there a YouTube audio that gives a sample? I'll be off to find out soon. So Jeanne, where are you from really? I ask while I'm trying hard to say "rehnch." It's not working. Liz, Lucy, whatdoes Marmite taste like? I also wonder about Bovril. Oh ---- the troubles of a reader of British, etc. lit who has never traveled!

Bovril is beef tea, so---yeah, I guess that's what it tastes like.

Members of the ---mite family are concentrated pastes of yeast extract, very strong, very salty (and very good for you, full of B vitamins). The mistake most furriners make, I find, is that they use far too much of it so that the flavour is overwhelming (particularly if you're not used to it). The thinnest scrape is all you need, preferably on fresh bread and butter - or on Vitaweets, so that you can make "worms".

It's also an excellent hangover cure. :)

I was born in southern California, grew up in Louisiana, lived in Fort Worth for 10 years and south Texas for another couple, and I've been in New Zealand since 2003.

I grew up in southern CA - don't know that it matters - I have a tendency to start sounding like whoever I'm talking to. If I'm talking to a person with a southern accent, I start sounding southern. The only one I can't do is rural Utah (and maybe rural other places). Crick for creek, fark for fork, etc. Agh!

Let me know if you narrate a book! I'll buy it.

This central Kansan remembers asking her mother in 4th grade why wash was spelled with no "r"--warsh! Crick, definitely, but not fark.

I had a friend who could take on an accent in a week. When living in Sydney she sounded fully Australian, then living in London, all British, and lastly in LA, all of a sudden she's sounding fully American! I found it hilarious.

I lurve my iPod. Seriously. Am addicted to it as much as to my Kindle. I have different playlists -- for airplane travel, gardening, etc. I put together playlists of "home concerts"...

Not a big audio book fan. Just as well; there isn't enough room on there to add any!

Another Southern Californian here too! I remember when I was about 13 I spent a week with a friend whose mother was born in Germany. By the end of the week I sounded like I was a German American with a strong accent!

*waving* at Peggy (again)

Loving the talk about accents. I've been out of New England for...um...40 years, and still strangers will say, "Are you from Massachusetts?" Well, yes, I am; how ever did you know? But I do take on a sort protective shell of the local lingo here, which actually I find quite charming. None of our children have any discernible accent, having been brought up in that melting pot of the entire continental U.S.: Florida. I've learned to say, "Hey" in a drawn-out fashion instead of "Hello" or "Hi" on the phone. The odd thing is that when I go back to N.E. (something that is becoming quite rare), I'm struck by the strength of the accent I hear.

Back to iPod: I understand the reluctance to spend more money on yet another gadget. But, man, when one is tied up in caregiving situations, it's a minor miracle. I got the old kind with the gigantic memory, so am not bothered with any of the "Hmmm...this or that?" issues; I just keep adding things on, making new playlists. What particularly attracted me, other than the instant availability of my favorite music in any environment, was the old radio shows from the forties. Super stuff.

Oh, and for British friends: how is the word "whingeing" pronounced? It's apparently a synomym for our "whining."

whingeing rhymes with bingeing, as in binge drinking. not at all sure how to spell whingeing or bingeing though!

Thank you, ma'am. I've come across it several times and was curious.

you're welcome :)

Oh, this thread is so educational, Peggy. And, thank you Gail, for that pronunciation question - and Janet for the speedy answer - on whingeing. I thought it was a typo the first few times I saw it.

I'm another one who doesn't particularly enjoy listening to books. I make an exception for road trips, however, as I can't read in the car. They're a lifesaver for those times.

Hey, Everybody! You know, it's not surprising that readers love talking about language! For one who lives in the house her husband grew up in, in the town where she grew up, the mobility of the rest of you is impressive. I'm happy to have my guess at "whingeing" confirmed and will take only a little Marmite if I'm ever offered any. Actually, I might be.... My sophisticated (!) friends introduced me to Nutella last summer, and we're three weeks away from our long weekend this year. I don't know about worms though ----
If I find that I need an iPod, I'll surely get one.....
I know that I should take this over to the pedants' corner, but I wonder whether I'm the only curmudgeon in the world who has noticed and been irritated by the change in "you know" as a filler in conversation. It used to be, "You know that ------, right?" I think that's legitimate. Then it was "----------------, you know." Less good, but I was used to it. Now I'm hearing, "The object, you know, is -----." Especially when this is a response to a question ("What is the object of ....?"), I go completely nuts and yell at the TV, "NO. You #(#@()(**&)^! idiot. If he knew, he wouldn't have asked the question!" So far I've been able to control myself in face-to-face conversation. I haven't met my other new pet peeve in f-t-f conversation, I'm happy to say. Have you noticed how people are now using stuttering as fillers? I'm not talking about people with actual stutters, I'm talking about talking heads, whom I have in times past heard speak fluently, who now re-re-re-repeat themselves with annoying frequency as they think out an answer.
Sorry. That was approaching a rant, but I'd really be interested to know whether I'm completely crazy or only just a little.

#184 Hats off to "you know," Peggy! Well said! I find celebrities are horrible with this; there's an entertainment show on right after our evening news, and one or the other, or several of them, are usually prattling on about something (which they know little or nothing about). The speech is painful ... I can't help but think these people are worth tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars, are looked up to as role models by many of our youth - but they have no education, cannot put a sentence together ... I'll stop there!

Thanks, Nancy. I'm just, you know, so glad to find out I'm only a little crazy.

Hmmm... I'd have to record someone from up that way but essentially something interesting happens to vowels in many different types of words from 'back' or 'that' to 'are' and 'Rochester' All I know is when I'm there, I slip into into it instantaneously, I can hear myself doing it, my husband raises his eyebrows...... but I'm just putting on my camo and melting into the woodwork. The minute we get in the car to head back east it stops. I think it is probably part of a basic accent that might even extend with variations along the northern part of US from somewhere west of the Adirondacks more or less to ..... Illinois? I'm just guessing, really.

Those boys like Marmite.... they are happy when we have some around when they visit.

#186 hehe, perfect!

Well as far as I can see, no one in WNY has an accent ;-) You now what I mean??

Sibyx, is that Rochester, NY? I went to school there, having grown up with a pretty standard downstate NY (not Brooklyn) accent. The differences in vowel patterns were astounding - and the administration gave lessons during orientation! I didn't realize how much influence this had until my junior year, at a wedding, when a very handsome man asked me where I was from. When I said 'downstate', he said, 'no, I mean before that.' Before that???? I was born in Brooklyn Women's Hospital - there was no before that!

But I was pleased. The two accents seem to balance each other out somehow, and some of that has kept with me (I hope) over the years.

P.S. I used to laugh at myself, driving down from school to home. I'd hit the town of Roscoe on rte 17 and pick up the New York stations, and my accent would immediately revert, at least for the length of the ride.

Oh! If it's around Rochester, I know it! All up in the nose!!!

#184 - It annoys me too, but I am concerned, you know, that I sometimes do it too and don't realize it. For example: "like" is more used in my house than I realized because lately my 4 year old is starting all his sentences with "like".

The thing that has really been annoying me lately is the prevalence of the "expert panel" on a news show. All the news shows have one and all they do is TALK LOUDLY AT THE SAME TIME. Do they really expect us to sit there and listen? Everyone TALKING LOUDLY AT THE SAME TIME is very much against the rules at my house.

>184 LizzieD:: Ditto the problem with TALKING LOUDLY AT THE SAME TIME. Subtext: I don't care what you have to say. It isn't important. OR You're such a loudmouth that I feel I must do this to be heard.

Absolutely! I had to walk away from CNBC today because they had at least 5 experts all yelling.

190 -- Yep, Ro-cha-cha, NY it was and is. I lived then, out in a little town just south of it in the Genesee Valley area. I'm going out that way in a couple of weeks to the engagement party of a niece..... this time only my dau is going with me and she will, I am sure, start looking at me with her eyebrows raised.

>>>#192 Oh, yes, yes, yes!! I can live with "you know"; it's "like" that drives me crazy. I used to work with a girl who must have said "like" six times in every sentence she spoke. It was, like, really, like, annoying, until, like, I just, like, wanted to, like, murder her, like.

(I realise this is endemic, and occasionally I still feel like attacking strangers on the train or bus when I hear it; but this girl I was trapped in a confined space with.)

For what it's worth, I once travelled through the US for six weeks, mostly in the North-West, and not one person picked my accent as Australian - the guesses were equally British and Kiwi. Perhaps I don't say, "Cor, stone the bleeding crows, cobber!" enough in casual conversation.

Liz, you didn't say, "Cor, stone the bleeding crows, cobber!" enough??? Let's all be grateful!
I became inured to "like" from years of listening to teens. In fact, it's not nearly as invasive as it used to be among the leaders at my high school although lesser mortals continue to like "like" every third word.
(Lucy, I'm now wondering how long it will take your DD to pick it up!?)

THE WISE MAN'S FEAR by Patrick Rothfuss
This is a nifty whale of a fantasy. It is way too long, but I suspect that each reader would want something different trimmed. I could lose a lot of the folk tales and be happier with the book. That said, for fantasy lovers this is the real thing. It can't be read as a stand-alone, and now I'll have to reread both this one and The Name of the Wind when the third book of the trilogy finally appears. I won't mind at all.
To whet the appetite of any Kvothe lovers who have read *NotW* but not *Wise Fear*, I'll simply say that in the first half Kvothe is still at the university. Then he sets out on adventures that take him to the court of a powerful princeling, on a campaign against bandits, into the land of the Fae, off to a Japanese-like culture for some Ninja-like training, and finally, back to the university. For non-Kvothe lovers, he is only 17, and so he moves from mature sophistication to rankest teen-age boy messes. However long it was, I enjoyed it all and now have to wait again. Stasia has the right idea, I'm afraid, about this one. Wait, and read all three together unless, like me, you fear to postpone pleasure for that long.

Hi Peggy -

You know, this is like a really interesting and educational thread... "Like" makes me crazy. So do the tv talking heads who insist on talking over each other.

I've always wondered how to pronounce whingeing.

My husband still has a NJ accent but mine is generally not noticable or so I'm told. Until I say "coffee" - that's the giveaway word, apparently.

I love my ipod classic and use it for music, podcasts and audio books. I also have a few tv shows on it that were free but it's really too small for me to watch.

Whew! My two cents. I think I'm all caught up now!

I always back down when someone talks over me cos I hate everybody TALKING LOUDLY AT THE SAME TIME- I sometimes feel like a pushover because I do that. But still, it's better than everybody TALKING LOUDLY AT THE SAME TIME ;-)

Joanne, thanks for catching up! (How else could anybody say "cawfee"?) (!)
Hi, Megan, I tend to get all tight and non-articulate - maybe what I mean is passive-aggressive ("You won't listen to what I think? That's your loss. Ha. Ha. Ha.") - when everybody is TALKING LOUDLY AT THE SAME TIME.

Oh, Joanne, I think it's definitely THE giveaway word for NJ natives! I was just up that way for a month and (since it's something I absolutely require in morning) heard the word a lot. There's a unique pronunciation that I've never heard anywhere else. Most of the East Coast seems to have a hint of "cawfee" rather than "coughfee" but it's almost like there's an extra syllable in it with the strongest of the Garden State accents. I can't even figure out how to transcribe it. Maybe "co-awe-fee"?

I'm just teasing! /big smile/

#197: I loved The Name of the Wind but, after a lot of listening to what Tad, Stasia and others are saying, I'm just going to wait. When I think about all the series that have me waiting...plus the fact that I have to re-read the older books to refresh my memory when a new one comes out...I'm building a bigger and bigger reading debt. There's the Patrick Rothfuss, and the George R. R. Martin, and the Robert Jordan, and the Steven Erikson, and the Glen Cook. Not to mention that I'm going to start the Felix Gilman series that's being raved about plus either the new Mark Newton series or the new Daniel Abraham series (but not both!) depending upon some pending reviews. Ack!!!!!

Oh! "Co-WAH-fee"!?!?!?!?! Hi, Ruthie! I am now rushing to look at Felix Gilman since I haven't heard any raves...... Thank you, I guess.
It looks as though I may just as well give up what I say I'm reading and take another month off to frivol. I started The Winter Sea this morning, and so far it's just what I'm after. We'll see whether I tire of it in 150 pp, which is my usual practice.

Ruth -- I was sitting there working it out in my head -- how to spell it! I had come up with something that involved Quwahfee. The accent would seem to be on the 'wah'.

I have the first Daniel Abraham of the new series, but I doubt I'll get to it before he publishes the next one with all the books I have waiting in the wings.....

The Winter Sea looks interesting, Peggy. Be curious to hear what you think.

#203: Maybe raves is a bit much, but a lot of "really likes". I first noticed the Gilman because Amazon recommended it to me and it had a pretty good rating (4 stars). Then a friend at work said it was one of the more original things they had read. Then I noticed that DrNeutron gave it a glowing report. Then Tad really liked it (new review on this thread).

So, it seems worth a try to me since I like all the several genres that it seems to belong in.

Hello to Lucy, Nancy, and Ruthie. The Winter Sea is a thumping good read so far with chapters alternating between a modern historical author and her historical subject.
Now I know which book you're talking about, Ruthie. I'm not sure that the western part appeals to me, but overall it sounds intriguing.
Books waiting in the wings = a cast of thousands!

Finally made it to the end of your thread(s) Peggy! The trouble is, there have been lots of unread messages sitting there looking at me, and I say to myself 'It will take a little while to read that one, because I know I'm going to want to read it properly and not skim it since there will be so many interesting conversations going on.' And so I leave it for another day, by which time it has gained another 20 or 50 unread posts.

Anyway, I was not wrong about all the interesting conversations. On the pronunciation front, I like the various suggested spellings for CoWAAfee, which is probably one of the few regional variations of US English I might actually be able to pinpoint. Meanwhile I am doing my best as a southerner not to stand out too glaringly in the North East of England. I'm not going to try to speak 'Geordie' like the locals, especially as more than half the people in my parish don't speak it themselves as they've moved here from elsewhere in the country. But I have learned to say that I live in NewCASSle rather than NEWcarsel which is how I would have pronounced it before!

And if I can join in with a whinge about current language usage, the thing that is making me irate when I hear it (increasingly often) from politicians, experts, analysts etc is the phrase 'going forward' which suddenly in the past year or two seems to have entirely displaced such expressions as 'in future', 'from now on' 'next year' or any other similar way of expressing the fact that they are referring to what lies ahead and not what is past. It sounds like a bit of jargon that's arrived from who knows where and got stuck in people's brains.

I've just googled 'going forward' and discovered that there are others who share my dislike, as in this article. From now on, I know that I'm not alone!

Glad to see you, Genny. That was hilarious! "Yet protesting feels so good. Not only does it allow one to wallow in the superiority of one's education, but some words are so downright annoying that to complain brings relief. " True! I realize that "going forward" is likely to be eclipsed by the next new thing, but as I age, I fear that one day I'll die before I see the end of something equally atrocious.
I used to enjoy watching my students practice a new phrase that had caught their imaginations. I remember the kid who said, "Get out of town!" about once a minute. He did that for several weeks and then backed off. By then it was natural to him to use it only where it was applicable. Unfortunately, I also watched our very intelligent young pastor use "as well" (one of my current peeves). I counted. He went from a high of 30 "as well"s in a half hour talk to maybe only 4 or 5 in the same time. I shudder to think about it, but I know we're in for more language abuse going forward.

I am just waving as I catch up to all the 'talking' chatter :)

I mentioned this on another thread (Gail's?, I think), but my linguistic pet peeve is 'each and every' - a completely redundant statement - 'each' covers everyone already, so why do we need the 'every'?

I'm sure I commit my share of language abuses -- as do we all one way or another (in at least someone's opinion). Like, going forward, each and every one of us will, like, try to do better, right? ;) To me, everyone TALKING LOUDLY AT THE SAME TIME is the worst!

Co-awe-fee, anyone? (Yup, I'm a native of New Jersey, too.!)

It's tea time for me! And you're right, we all mangle language in our own way. Motes and beams spring to mind, but it's so much easier to spot the motes elsewhere than our own beams!

#211 - So funny!

Peggy, thanks for inviting me to the Ravelry group here on LT. Looks like fun!

Hello, Jenn, Genny, and Terri. You all know that The Pedants' Corner where folks talk endlessly about this stuff is still active, don't you?
I forgot that I joined the Ravelry group here and left a question. I must trot over to see what's what right now! And I hope we both enjoy it, Jenn.

I'm unusually tolerant, I think, as I like the idea of language changing over time..... the main reason for rules, really, is clarity; disastrous misunderstanding where lives are at stake. And I have copy edited, so I know the rules, but I also know that in the end usage will win the day. What I like or don't like is irrelevant. When I was teaching basic writing I went half mad trying to correct some usages -- I'm about ready, for example, to throw in the towel about 'alot' as opposed to 'a lot'. I can't think of an instance where that usage would be life-theatening??? I might have had one student in twenty at the Community College who ever even noticed my corrections and made the effort.

I recently listened to a fascinating 36-lecture series by Professor John McWhorter. I rented the series from the library and listened going to and coming home from work every day for over 2 weeks. Each lecture was fascinating. His style is personal yet erudite, humorous and full of examples from all cultures, all languages, over many centuries and even millenia.

Here's a link to information about the series: The Story of Human Language

The upshot of what I learned from the series is that language is dynamic, always striving for the simple, always trying to cut out words and sounds. Professor McWhorter believes that there's nothing more inherently right about how one group of people speak than another. It definitely changed how I think about usage; although I personally prefer more formal and "standard" English that doesn't mean it's necessarily "right". Definitely food for thought.

Hi Peggy!

simply stopping by to wave hi

Hi to Lucy, Karen, and Linda! I do believe in my head that what we say about usage should be descriptive. But oh, when I hear what I consider the cheapness of current usage and the loss of what I consider beauty, I get angry and sad and just plain irritated. I deplore the changing vowel sounds - soon (in a few decades if we continue as we're going) we're not going to hear a long a again. Soon I'm going to be the only person I know who still says "int'rested." It doesn't matter. "Alot" doesn't matter; "Everybody should get out their book" doesn't matter (and I absolutely gave up on that one when the PhD candidate whose dissertation I read ignored my corrections). I realize that I am old.
I'm going to bed.
Karen, thanks for the link. I'll look at it later.

Just wanted to, like, drop in to catch up on the conversation about language. As well, I wondered what you were reading, Peggy. I know you read alot. Argh ... !! I had a most interesting conversation this year with one of my grade 12 students who realized that continuous texting, tweeting, Facebook-ing, etc was seriously hampering the ability of young people to communicate formally. I wanted to kiss her, and tell her to pass it on to all of her peers!

Language is so interesting. I have to agree with the 12 th grader.... some kids just out of school that I worked with in my old job actually used txt spk in important documents like job applications and CVs! I couldn't believe it.

Heh heh 219!
That looks like a great series Karen, thanks for the link. And thanks all for being tolerant of my tolerance! It's easy to read about how Samuel Johnson regularized spelling with his dictionary - before it didn't matter one bit how anyone spelled anything! And all those words Shakespeare simply made up! Could one person get away with that now?

I agree txt spk z abt scary!

But maybe after several hundred years of correct spelling we are about to let it fly by the wayside again. How interesting!

Some aspects of txt spk remind me of the 7th-8th century Irish and Anglo-Saxon scribes who were the subject of my research years ago, and who were wont (the Irish ones especially) to make very heavy use of abbreviation in even quite formal manuscripts. This included lots of special symbols which replaced certain letter combinations or syllables. Of these we still use the '&' symbol (which is of course originally just a ligature of the letters e and t, ie Latin 'and') but others are far from obvious, like an 'h' with a little extra tail which stood for the word 'autem', or a 'p' with various extra strokes to stand variously for per-, prae-, pro-, or a symbol which looks like a division sign replacing the syllable est. It looked weird to the untrained eye, but as they all did it, it presumably was quite acceptable and didn't hamper communication, but was rather seen as the normal way to write certain sounds. Not all that different from people today texting 'c u l8r', perhaps?

(Though l8r for later has always seemed a very fiddly, time-consuming way to do it, as on my phone at least you need to change from alpha to numeric keyboard and back to achieve it!)

lol. I agree with you about l8r - awkward even on a regular keyboard.

As an old person myself, and an English major as well as a voracious reader in my youth, I confess inaccurate spelling and grammar make me cringe, but I agree that the most important thing about language is clarity. Place the modifier at the wrong point in a sentence and you get Groucho Marx and the elephant in his pajamas. Because most people think they know what they are saying, they are bewildered when people misinterpret their statements. My friendly ex-lawyer says much of contract law is about exactly that - making clear what is stated in the agreement.

All that does not excuse my many mistakes, confusing 'lay' with 'lie', etc. Most of my grammar and spelling comes from my accustomed reading, and the fact that my parents spoke grammatically at all times. What you hear, what you read becomes what your brain recognizes as correct, until someone drills into that same brain another pattern.

I find the monks' abbreviations very beguiling. They had such hard work to do, without benefit of good erasers, word processing, or even frequent breaks from bending over their slanted desks. I forgive them (and thank them for) all such abbreviations.

I've really enjoyed the discussion here, Peggy. I think language is fascinating. The posts mentioning textspeak, etc. remind me of a funny blog post about the alot:

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everyth...

AMQS, that was delicious.

Hi Peggy! Lost you about two threads ago. Glad to have found you again. What are you reading now? Still in The Winter Sea? Is it holding up?

#222 wow, fascinating

#224 thanks for that - I've seen that blog before, but lost it again; very funny!

As someone who has been known to carry a marker in her purse to correct grocery store signs (especially in the produce section), I appreciate this conversation alot. As a former educator, I'm embarrassed that my generation has produced this new generation of grammar and spelling destroyers.

Peggy, I looked today and found that I had "111" unread posts from your thread. How did that happen? I have no idea. Flying off to find out what I missed.

>223 ffortsa:. Judy, I fell off my chair laughing at your post: "As an old person myself, and an English major as well...." Ditto, myself.

>221 sibylline:. Sib, you find it "interesting" that we are about to let spelling "go by the wayside again"? Seriously? Interesting? How about, "horrifying"? And >215 sibylline:--Why are you so willing to be tolerant?

>218 LizzieD:. Peggy, love it! You are not the only one. Maybe when we die....

>179 Matke: Oh, and for British friends: how is the word "whingeing" pronounced? It's apparently a synomym for our "whining." Thank You! I've seen this "whingeing" posted here (not just on your thread, Peggy, but elsewhere) and it seems quite precious when it comes from those of an American English background. What's the deal with that, anyway?

Obviously I missed out on a great thread here, Peggy.

WOW! We're striking a chord here, aren't we, and I am fascinated to see what resources you all have and what is important to you as we think about language. Genny, I'm tickled to know where the ampersand came from (I see that its name is a contraction of "and per se and" Does that even make sense?) I am happy to make the acquaintance of the Alot!
I agree that clarity is the goal of language. So what has happened (true story!) when a whole class reads in Macbeth, "Help me hence, ho!" and wonders which one is the ho and how she got into the castle? (What they make of Santa Claus when he laughs, I can't begin to imagine.) That marks a degeneration of language that is not helpful. Lest you think I've now singled out one ethnic group for my displeasure, it's not so. I had 4 races in that particular class and every one of them was equally clueless. Curious things go on in the minds of children who haven't been taught to spell. I was amazed that in my tenure more than one kid wrote for me, "She dwindled down the road." (That's "dawdled" to you and me. Where did it come from?) I'm never going to ask somebody for an apple who has said, "I ain't got no apples," but I'm going to be sorry for the double negative and the lack of fruit. I guess I do come down on the side of prescription after all. And we haven't even touched on language as an indicator of class differences. If we all think "ho" when we think of a prostitute, have we lowered class barriers?
Thank you all for coming by and speaking. I'm fascinated even if I am an old English major.

Hyperbole and a Half does it again! That has to be my favorite bloggish place in the blogoverse, not that I'm so conversant with it or anything. I think if I had had that to bring to class I might have made some headway! Humor can make inroads where nothing else can get a foot in the door (yah, so I'm mixing it up).

I loved the Hyperbole and a Half post. Thanks Anne!

I'm sure many of you have read Eats, Shoots and Leaves. I chose it for my book club a few years ago and we had a lot of fun with it.

As far as signage, one of my pet peeves is "your" instead of "you're" and it occasionally takes me to extremes. When we moved about 8 years ago, we needed temporary housing. We went to check out a promising apt. complex. As we drove in, I saw a sign that said "RELAX, YOUR HOME!" While my husband sputtered in disbelief, I turned the car around and went to the next place on the list. I told him I couldn't stand to live in a place where I would have to see that every day. Talk about pedantic. :)

I too love the Hyperbole and a Half post!

#234: Love your story about the apartment complex, Jenn. I think I would probably have done the same thing.

Good morning, Stasia, Jenn, and Lucy! Jenn, I do so love your strength of character! Oh yeah. I would have used the great Alot in the classroom in a heartbeat, and if I ever see a door in a road, I'll put my foot in it.

BEL CANTO by Ann Patchett
I've just been reading some of the reviews here and wondering what other people want from books. I thought this one was perfect of its kind. Gorgeous writing and characters to understand and love! Besides the music and romance, I liked best the explosion of genius among the captors. General Benjamin said it best: "It makes you wonder. All the brilliant things we might have done with our lives if only we suspected we knew how." I watched it time and again in the schools of my poor, backward county. Introduce a great passionate teacher, and suddenly wonderful talent exploded from the most unlikely places. When I finished this book, I wept a little weep for the poverty of untapped potential both for its carriers and for the world.

Jenn -- I wouldn't have been able to stomach that either. The you're/your issue is one I would insist upon -- I can't quite think of life or death reason, but I have no doubt someone could come up with one.

Peggy, great review of Bel Canto. I agree with you. The writing was amazing and the characters were alive.

Lucy, maybe the life and death situation is that another sighting of that error will cause one of us to have a psychotic break?

>232 LizzieD:. Peggy, I just fell off my chair laughing.

Curious things go on in the minds of children who haven't been taught to spell.

Hi, Lucy and Jenn. Your both right in you're perception. We've all seen it both ways and the mind boggles. While I'm on the spelling thing, one of my favorites was the old couple selling "Orks" at the farmers' market - that's "okra" to you and me. Becky, laughing is better than crying.

What entertainment! I've loved this.

Peggy, I loved Bel Canto as well and couldn't understand why some didn't like it.

If I had just a nickel for every time I had a conversation like this with one (or more) of the daughters:

She: And then she goes...
Me: No, then she said.
She: So she goes...
Me: Nope. Start over. She said...
She: (Deep, deep sigh) She said...

or the other constantly repeated non-musical round:

She: And I was so, like, all confused...
Me: No. Either you were confused or you were not confused, or perhaps somewhat confused, but you can't be "like confused"!
She: Well, and so I was li--wait--I was confused.

After seemingly hundreds of these repeated corrections, always making them start over (maybe that was when they started the real adolescent resentment of me), none of them uses any of these non-constructions. Oh, and we all get along fine, at least I think so.

I'm sure that you do, Gail, but I think you were heroic. I couldn't do that in school; I could only say, "'Like' is fine because you're kids. Do you think that serious employers are going to be impressed with you if you sound like a Valley Girl? When will you work on it?" (I especially loved saying this to football players.)

The only heroic part, Peggy, was that I never allowed myself to raise my voice. At least, not over grammar.

Love it about the footballers.

A couple years ago my daughter's English teacher collected some small amount of money from students every time they said "like," and a couple of other annoying teenspeak phrases. They donated the proceeds to charity. It was a good consciousness-raiser. Like whatever. :)

#242 If we had a 'Like' button on LT, I could, like, 'like' this!

Well done indeed Gail! My dau doesn't seem to use any of those constructions -- nothing in particular I did -- I would give most of the credit to the little school she went to k-8 (esp the teacher grades 6-8) where I am guessing that kind of diction made you un-cool, as well as probably, unconsciously on my part and her Dad's, of raised and amused eyebrows.....

Now, if I could get may daughters and nieces to stop using "awkward" as a synonym for every other word bearing any uncomfortable connotation...

...oh, and eradicate the phrase, "Wait! What?" as an interjection into every conversation...

O.K. We got through "cool" and "groovy" and "gnarly" and a lot of other single words that sound like "awkward" to me and came out the other end using standard English. Did we really tear up the language though? With the exception of "cool" I don't think any of our stuff lasted as long as "like" has. Anyway, this teenspeak is a safe way for kids to rebel and parents to fret (so that kids can feel really - I almost said "hip" - on the cutting edge), and that has to be a good thing.

I know it's a very late post regarding Fingersmith, but I am excited that I found a beautiful hardcover copy with perfect dust jacket at the thrift store yesterday for $2.60 - 10% of the cover price. I may even read it sometime soon!

Our "cool" word of choice in junior high and high school was 'bitchin'. Sad but true.

Hope you're having a great day, Peggy!

I agree with Peggy. As long as my kids know when not to use this dialect (because there are so many non-standard words in the local slang that is really is a dialect) I don't mind. And they do know - not at job interviews or at work, not on college application forms, not in homework/papers/exams, not around grownups who don't know them and/or don't have teenagers of their own, not at the dinner table when we have guests... I think it's fine for them to feel part of that "subculture", since they have to live in it every day (well, my younger one does, anyway).

How about the rhetorical tic of making statements sound like questions? And don't be too sure that sort of Valley-girl speak keeps people from getting good jobs. For instance, I was just listening to an internet conference for middle and high school kids about the capture and death of Osama bin Laden. Here's how it went; the transcription is accurate, not exaggerated:

"My name is Ben Rhodes. I'm the Deputy National Security Advisor for Strategic Communications here at the White House? That means that I'm responsible for all of the president's speech writing on foreign policy issues and national security issues, as well as our, uh, communications, uh, both here in the United States and abroad. What I'd like to do is walk you through some of the back story that led up to Sunday? Uh, and uh discuss some of the implications for our country? Um, and then, uh, I'm really looking forward to hearing from you through your questions.

Good grief. He's young, maybe 35-ish--young for that job, anyway, IMO. But even so, "I'm Ben Rhodes?"

>245 gennyt: Did someone say they were looking for a "Like" button??

I just (gently) told a friend of mine who is a superb occupational therapist that her upward inflection is probably costing her some aura of authority with parents.

When people speak like that, I always feel they are making sure the listener is either keeping up with them or agreeing with them - as if the inflection were a placeholder for the otherwise ubiquitous 'you know?' at the end of a sentence. But it weakens the statement.
A person in authority cannot always be asking for approval!

Wow! Congratulations on your find, Karen! Read it!! Read it!!!
Hello to Janet, Becky, Bonnie, and Judy! Ah... The upward inflection? Used to drive me nuts? I think I'm used to it, but I'm pretty sure that I don' t use it myself? I think you have the handle on it, Judy. My other complaint with therapists and their ilk is their asking a patient or client to do something that said patient or client can't refuse, as in "Let's just put the catheter in now, O.K.?" What if they get "NO!" for an answer?

THE UNPLEASANTNESS AT THE BELLONA CLUB by Dorothy L. Sayers
This is a good mystery with plenty of character development and with every single clue needed to solve the case laid out in the first couple of chapters. It's not one of my favorites, but that's just down to personal taste. I can't even begin to say why, and I'm not interested enough to try to figure it out.

All the grammar stories on this thread have been making chuckle.

I have found my own grammar usage has really slipped over the last few years though. Sometimes when I'm reading through posts I've written here I spot their/there, your/you're or apostrophe errors which I don't think I would have made 10 years ago. I don't know if it's because I pay less attention to things I write on the internet (too late at night) or whether it's because the people reviewing my reports at work don't pick up on grammatical errors in the same way my teachers at school would.

Going back to the orks/okra story, my problem growing up was that I would read words but never hear them said so I made all kinds of embarrassing mistakes such as pronouncing Beethoven as Beeth-oven and had to ask my husband how you pronounce okra because my original assumption would have been to say oh-kra (as in Ohio).

I also catch myself using 'like' in conversation far too often.

{Not going to admit how many spelling/grammatical mistakes I picked up rereading this and would be very pleased if people didn't point out any that are left}.

#255 - okra IS pronounced oh-kra where I am, or, if you're really cool, bhindi.

Heather, I don't think messages in talk count. I try to be careful, so I do see a number of my mistakes, but I know that plenty get past me. And --- you should say "Oh - kra." What am I missing?
I still can't pronounce stuff that I've read, but that's a sure mark of a reader. (And in the fourth grade I made an X on writing. I couldn't spell the words that I had read and used when I wrote, but I could spell all the spelling words. She couldn't give me the X on the subject, so she put it on the writing. I bawled all the way home. Tiny double checks in all the other boxes and a box-filling X on writing. My mother never liked that teacher much. I have forgiven her!)

So Peggy - do you say im-por-tant or im-por-dant? Quite a few North Carolinians say the latter, including my daughter, but NOT my NC-born husband.

Around here those strange little slimy vegetables are called oak-ruh, which is very similar to oh-kra.

255 -- never fear Heather -- and anyway -- this forum is somewhere between informal chatter and uh, like the deep stuff, rilly. Anyhow -- if I worried too much about what I was writing here I never would post a thing.

Karen, I guess I swallow the middle consonants of words like a real American and don't really say either - but I think I come closer to -tant. And you're right that oak-ruh is really what I say.
Amen, to Lucy.
And I'm finally reading in Matterhorn, but it's awfully hard. I can't tell you how grateful I am that my DH missed that experience. (He was in the Coast Guard for his service.)

#255 - I know what you mean. I was taught to read phonetically, so I had trouble with words like curriculum and Yosemite.

This reminds me of a story my friend told me yesterday. Her 8 year old was writing a note to a family friend named Trudy. On the note, he wrote " To Chrudy" and that led my friend to wonder how many words we speak lazily (rilly) and confuse our children.

Lovely review of Bel Canto, Peggy. Thanks for that : ).

I am so glad to see that you loved Bel Canto, Peggy!

>256 JanetinLondon:: or, if you're really cool, bhindi. Love it, Janet! Tonight we're having a group of people over for Indian take-out (or, if you're really cool, takeaway). But I don't expect bhindi will be on the menu.

Hi to Jenn (or "pullet surprise" in student writing), Nancy (thank you for the thank you!), Stasia, and Laura. I'm not cool at all - no bhindi here.

The thread police are going to come after you soon. . .

Hi Peggy, what a great discussion about language!

I'd like to add something about the 'terrible anglicisms' we Europeans love to complain about. I usually have no problem with those, but what I hate is a new variety: you take an English expression and needlessly turn it 1:1 into German, the result being something that is grammatically absolutely incorrect.

An example is the word "erinnern"/ "remember", which in German is followed by a preposition and a reflexive pronoun: "I remember him" is in correct German "Ich erinnere mich an ihn" (I remember myself of(?) him) . Following the English grammar, people now started to leave out the preposition and the pronoun ("Ich erinnere ihn"). They might think it makes them sound cool and sophisticated, but for my ears this is only half a sentence.

#267 - too bad about that corruption in German. When I was learning German I LOVED those reflexive verbs - they were just so, well, German.

#256 & 257 I think I got confused by the couple selling orks and assumed that was how it was pronounced! I've let my husband know he was wrong (he's used to that) :-/

My daughter, who is working in a local greengrocers for the summer, says some people say oh-kra, some say oke-ruh, and some say ock-ra. no orks, but probably no people around here from rural North Carolina, so who knows?

Probably no people from rural N.C. buying veggies in London. I'm sure that the orks people said "oh-kruhs", (you may like the plural) and I know that they could read *King James*. They just couldn't spell. Neither can their grandchildren. I recall an interesting conversation (which I've probably reported) in my AP class. I had corrected the student's "worthwild" and he looked at me and said, "Worthwhile! What on earth does that mean?" At least he grasped the concept that words do actually mean something. ("Worthwild" means "worthy of being crazy for," in case you are curious.) The girl who confused Valentine's Day with Veterans' Day just shrugged it off.
Nathalie, I'm sorry that German is getting Englished that way. I'd hate it. Heather, my apologies to you and your husband.

>160 lit_chick: Yeah, I know it's way back there, but I caught the reference to a Librivox recording of Huck Finn and downloaded it. My book circle is discussing the book this Thursday and I thought it would be a good way to get a refresher. You're right, the reader is marvelous. It's the second version on the site - absolutely worth listening to. Thanks!

Since Stasia is brow-tapping me (that's a lot lighter than a brow-beating, you understand), I'm starting a new thread which you can find here. Please look me up over there!