LizzieD: 2011*6

This is "Chesapeake VI" by Bill Hill, featured in the Jane Haslem Gallery. I like it a lot, possibly because it's cool! Welcome!

Wading at Wellfleet

In one of the Assyrian wars
a chariot first saw the light
that bore sharp blades around its wheels.

That chariot from Assyria
went rolling down mechanically
to take the warriors by the heels.

A thousand warriors in the sea
could not consider such a war
as that the sea itself contrives

but hasn't put in action yet.
This morning's glitterings reveal
the sea is "all a case of knives."

Lying so close, they catch the sun,
the spokes directed at the shin.
The chariot front is blue and great.

The war rests wholly with the waves:
they try revolving, but the wheels
give way: they will not bear the weight.

~Elizabeth Bishop




LizzieD: 2011*1
LizzieD: 2011*2
LizzieD: 2011*3
LizzieD: 2011*4
LizzieD: 2011*5

BEST FROM THE FIRST HALF OF '11
All Clear
Ex Libris
Devices and Desires and Evil for Evil
Cloud Atlas
A GLASTONBURY ROMANCE
Oryx and Crake
The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society
Our Tragic Universe
Dissolution, Dark Fire, and Sovereign
Brooklyn
The Seas
The Invisible Bridge
Letters Between Six Sisters
The Memory of Love

(* denotes a review on the book page)

JULY
42. Cold Comfort Farm* - rural Sussex and a sensible woman - as funny as everybody claims
43. Unnatural Death - Lord Peter Wimsey - three - We have the body and the suspect, but was it murder?
44. Pagans and Christians* - a macrocosm - Western religion, second through fourth centuries C.E.
45. A Visit from the Goon Squad - for Orange July - Life's a network and Time's a goon - clever and beyond
46. The Magicians and Mrs. Quent - pastiche, magick (!) - no clarity in authorial intention
47. Sacred Hunger - 18th century slave trade - a restrained epic
48. The Shadows in the Street - Simon Serrailler mystery #6 - wonderful characters, concerns, plot!
49. Fingersmith - for Orange July - two motherless girls in Victorian England - cross, double-cross, cross some more

AUGUST
50. The Constant Nymph* - for AV/AA - living or not with a musical genius or two - pretty good
51. Bidding for Love - pure chick lit - a Sunday afternoon confection
52. The Wise Man's Fear - day 2 Kingkiller Chronicles - great fantasy!
53. Bel Canto - music, romance, genius, tragedy - love the writing; love the characters; LOVE it!
54. The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club - Lord Peter #4 - a reread - not a favorite but good enough
55. A Note in Music* - for AV/AA - middle-aged dreary lives with some hope of resolution
56. The Winter Sea - a dandy old-fashioned historical romance - 1708 - restore James to the throne of Scotland?
57. My Animal Life* - literary memoir - ER - Maggie Gee's celebration of life
58. Cemetery of Angels - ghost story - pretty creepy
59. Mayflower - history of a couple of generations of Pilgrims and Indians - highly recommended!
60. Friday's Child - fluffy, witty, silly regency - enjoyable the second time through

NEW IN AUGUST
(ordered in July)
Lullabies for Little Criminals - PBS
The Engineer of Human Souls - AMP
Aristotle's Children: How Christians, Muslims, and Jews Rediscovered Ancient Wisdom and illuminated the Dark Ages - PBS
The Secret Book of Grazia dei Rossi - PBS
A Spell of Winter - AMP
Cemetery of Angels ✔ - AMP
(real August purchases)
The Gospel of St. Mark - AMP
Ghosts - AMP
Hotel World ✔ - PBS
Destroyer ✔ - PBS
Saint Luke - AMP
***Kindle Sale*** (Thanks, Suzanne!)
Georgette Heyer's Regency World
Faro's Daughter
The Reluctant Widow✔
A Convenient Marriage
The Nonesuch
Lady of Quality
**************
Kraken ✔ - Kindle
Pretender ✔ and Deliverer ✔ - PBS
A Gate at the Stairs ✔ - PBS
The Fifth Woman - Sam's
The Demon in the House - PBS
1491 - PBS

One more reserve

Ooh, am I the first?

Edit - yes!

Hi, Genny! Thanks for coming - and I take it you are home?

Just commenting on your last thread Peggy---I absolutely howl with delight when you quote your students. Worthwhile?? Hahahahaha. Priceless.

Oh and love the new pic.

I love the opening pic, Peggy!

#6 Yes, home, safe and sound - off to bed shortly as yet again it is nearly 1am!

Beautiful picture! (and nice new thread -- starred!)

Love the movement in that "water"!

Great picture!

Happy greetings to my first visitors: Genny, Bonnie, Stasia, Anne, Roni, and Jeanne! I really like that picture too, both the movement and the light. I'm not sure that it's by my Bill Hill, but I like it very much.

Peggy: You've read some great books so far this year. I just finished my 75, and you've inspired me to look back at the greatest hits.

'Morning, Peggy! I hope your NC weather is as nice today as mine is - gorgeous Carolina blue sky, low humidity, and supposed to get to 90F. I can take it with low humidity.

Have a great day.

Morning, Beth and Karen! I'm envious that you've already reached your 75th, Beth. I need to spend less time here and more time reading to have a hope of catching up with what I've bought over the years. (I know it's impossible, but I keep pretending....) I'll be glad to see your list of favorites if you get to it.
Karen, this week has been a great mercy with the lower humidity and relatively lower temps. Now if only we could get more rain!
I'm off to visit relatives over the weekend, so I'll be taking only my Kindle. That probably means that I'll have to spend a long time in the glossary again when I restart Matterhorn. I was just getting to the point that I was remembering names and acronyms. Oh bother.

I absolutely love that painting! Enough that I will have to hunt down Bill Hill.

Hi Peggy Have a fun weekend. I've got Matterhorn sitting on my shelves, alas, with all the other TBR books I've got. This one was on RichardDerus' recommendation.

Enjoy your weekend away with your kindle Peggy.

Nice painting, Peggy. Elizabeth Bishop was a correspondent (not close friend, but acquaintance) of Flannery O'Connor's.

I left my Kindle in La Junta, Colorado. After finally figuring out where I left it, I phoned them and--yes indeed!--they had it locked up in the gen. manager's office. They said they would mail it, but I haven't seen it yet, although I'm sure that it will come one of these days. That's the problem with a Kindle. If you leave a book behind, it's not great, but it's just one book. But if you leave your Kindle--arrrrgh!

Here!

Tad, I like that picture more and more. When I discovered Bill Hill several years ago, I found a lot of his stuff online. I liked his paintings of Victorian houses, derelict as you spent a little time looking. That guy was from Alabama. If this is the same man, he has drastically changed his style and subject matter. Anyway, now I can't find the houses.
Karen, Matterhorn demands real commitment, I think. I also think that it's totally worth our time, but I need to read it with only one palate cleanser or so to go with it. Thank you and Heather for the weekend wishes. I doubt that I'll get any reading time to speak of, but I live in hope. I'm slapping my hands to keep from downloading one more book for the trip - Kraken by China Miéville to be exact. Since I got Embassytown, I have decided that Kraken is the one I really want to read first. I wish I'd go ahead and put myself out of my misery. (Does anybody else do this? Then I think about the famine in the Horn of Africa and wonder how I can spend discretionary money on anything other than food.)
Becky, that's awful. You make me almost tempted to leave my Kindle here. Surely with your cautionary example I'll bring it back! Interesting that Bishop and O'C corresponded a bit.
Off to the showers!

Hi! I've found your new thread and have starred it!

Thank you, Terri.
And never mind. I wanted Kraken for this weekend, so I yielded, of course, and now have it safely on my Kindle. YAY! But I will send an equal amount of $ to Africa, so I'm not a complete hypocrite....

wonder how I can spend discretionary money on anything other than food. ... But I will send an equal amount of $ to Africa, Thank you for the reminder, Peggy, I've been meaning to send a donation myself - will do that straight away!

I started Kraken last night when I couldn't sleep, and I have to say that this is the Mieville that I love - new weird for sure! I also enjoy The City and The City Mieville too, but this one seems to be more my speed!

What a beautiful painting to start your thread. It is calmingly serene.

#22 "Does anyone else do this?" Yes, unfortunately... Glad to hear you're enjoying Kraken though. I really need to get back to Mieville, I'm not sure why I haven't.

#251 253 way way back on the old thread you were talking about the upward infection at the end of a statement...that trait is a real New Zealand-ism too. Particularly amongst women and it smacks of approval seeking, or at least of trying to elicit a response from the listener. I find it fascinating.
(it's called "high rising terminal contour" in case anyone was wondering....lol...I cant believe I remember That from Linguistics 101)

"Infection" indeed! lol

29: Also "upspeak": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_rising_terminal.

I have many memories of trying to train that upward inflection out of the speech of graduate students (and yes, all women) in school psychology, in their work with students. You just can't come across as an effective helping professional if every sentence to the child ends with an upward inflection or "okay?".

"The Inflection Infection" That's great, Megan and Judy!! Thanks for the wikipedia article, qebo. I applaud your effort, Roni, but unless you were in a language lab doing something approaching saturation, I'll bet it didn't take. On the other hand, I had a childhood friend who asked me when we were 8 to correct her when I heard her say something that I wouldn't say because she wanted to talk like me. When we were alone, I did. And she did. I don't know whether this was something that her upwardly mobile mother suggested or whether Janice was just that unnaturally aware of language as a class definer. That still knocks me out and humbles me every time I think about it. I'm pretty sure that I never did anything that difficult for myself.

Oh yes, Id like to take credit for coining the phrase "Inflection infection..."
*ahem*
Just quietly, it might have been a typo!

A good friend of mine is a very intelligent university lecturer, she also happens to be slim, beautiful and blonde AND talks with an upward inflection. She is hilarious to be around because people automatically assume she is ditzy or stupid. Its great to see her come out with a sensational piece of considered intellectualism ....jaws drop.

On upward inflection: though everyone else may be trying to cure it, I met a fellow a few years ago who actively cultivated it.

He told me that most Midwesterners tend to mumble, then at the end of sentences drop pitch and mumble faster. His business involved a great deal of dictation, so his stenographer frequently asked him to repeat the ends of sentences because all she'd catch was "mmmfmmtybrmm."

So he began to practice enunciation and an upward inflection until it became a habit.

To which I had two reactions:
1) You mean people still have stenographers?
2) Whatever works for you, dude.
... neither of which I expressed verbally.

Ah, Megan. A typofreudian slip!
Swynn, you haven't visited before, but you are most welcome with your anecdote about the increasing weirdness of the world. Very polite of you too.
I guess what bothers me most is the utter indifference to language as a significant part of our existence by people who should know better.

>36 LizzieD:: I'm a long-time lurker, first-time poster. Also having trouble keeping up with threads this year, so on the odd occasion when I do have something to say the conversation is frequently over.

I'm very interested in your futher thoughts on Kraken, since I'm working my way through Miéville's works (currently to Iron Council), and I've heard mostly negative things about that one. I hope your enthusiasm for it continues, as that gives me hope for my turn.

Hi Peggy, you find the most lovely art to start your threads!

Laugh or cry moment of last week: In a meeting with our son's math teacher, when we were attempting to explain that following step-by-step processes was challenging for him because of his adhd, she said "Well, I had an autistic student who could do this work."

That is rude (and ignorant) on so many levels I can't even start. Laugh, or cry?

Thanks for "letting" me vent a little.

Well, Swynn, Kraken has fallen by the way now that I'm home again and trying to catch up and get ready for another weekend away. I never go anywhere, but this weekend is the annual get-together of the high school friends with their spouses at White Lake. I can't wait except that I have big-time cooking to do! There will be about 20 of us.
Thank you, Nancy. I'm very taken with that picture too!
Jenn, I would be swearing and foaming at the mouth. Nothing like a closed mind before even giving the kid a chance. That is wrong on many levels, and I believe I'd have to present that reaction to the principal. I commend your patience.
Off to bed to read!

Good luck with your cooking preparations for the weekend - or do you do it on the spot? Nice to have a tradition like that of getting together with old friends.

I shall be doing something similar, well sort of, this weekend. I'm going to a festival (Greenbelt, a festival of faith, creativity and justice) along with about 20,000 other people, but among whom are quite a few old friends. I never quite know which of them are going until I get there, but especially with the aid of mobile (cell) phones these days, we soon manage to track each other down among the seminar queues or in the crowds enjoying the music, and fix up to have a coffee and catch up. So I'm looking forward to a weekend of friends as well as music, speakers, poetry readings, art intallations, and all sorts. And I don't have to do any cooking!

Good for both of us, Genny!
I'll do my cooking before heading over, but it looks more and more likely that Hurricane Irene will come ashore at Wilmington and keep us from our fun. When a hurricane comes through, this little person is going to be in her own home holding down one corner. At least we don't have to worry about the big oak trees falling on us, I hope. We have really missed their shade this summer, and I continue to miss their beauty. Oh well.

Hi Peggy. I've been lurking but not posting. It didn't occur to me that you were in the path of this hurricane. I hope all goes well!

Irene turned into a hurricane just after it passed my dad's house in St. Thomas. They had rain and a little wind. He has been through so many severe hurricanes he has his defenses well organized! He boards up his house at the first sign of a storm and doesn't take them down again until the season ends. He also has wire straps holding his roof down and has planted a small forest of Royal Palms to help block the wind.

Whoa! First, I wonder who felt the earthquake? We did here, very briefly, in N.C.
Thanks Pat and Mamzel for speaking --- One of my best friends lived for years in St. Thomas, so I know a little of how folks there take their hurricanes. We get one through here every few years although only three have done any real damage in my lifetime, or at least only three that I can remember. We did take the tops out of our beautiful oaks last year to minimize the damage in our next big one. I was not expecting an earthquake!!!!!

A NOTE IN MUSIC by Rosamond Lehmann
I did write an actual review of this one on the book page. It's a curious little novel in which not much happens. A small group of middle-aged acquaintances are mired in unhappiness when a vital, charismatic brother and sister breeze through their lives. What should be depressing is not because Lehmann writes complex characters. She also writes lush, descriptive prose that is a bit overblown for my taste, but was maybe the thing in 1930.
This was my first Lehmann and is not supposed to be typical of her work. I will read more!

Stay safe, Peggy!

>39 nittnut: Jenn, it's hard to believe that an educator would say something like that, and yet, sadly, it's not. *sigh* Years ago a friend spoke to a teacher at my kids' school about strategies for her child who has dyslexia. The teacher suggested medication. Ugh.

A hurricane and now an earthquake. I heard that the Pentagon was evacuated--30,000 people. Good grief. Hope all is well, Peggy; stay safe and head's up, everyone.

Earthquakes! Hurricanes!! What a precarious part of the earth you live in!

e.t.a. - Yes, stay safe, please!

I've not yet read any Lehmann, but I have Invitation to the Waltz and The Weather in the Streets in my TBR pile...

We're certainly safe from the earthquake. I'm surprised that even the tremble was felt this far south. We'll keep our weather eye out for the hurricane, but thank you all.
>39 nittnut: and 46 (Medication for dyslexia!) I recall hearing a young teacher who was sharing my room say to parents, "Of course, your daughter is such a space cadet that -----." We had a little talk later. The principal absolutely had a big talk later!

Hi Peggy, I just caught up with your new thread. I laughed when I read "space cadet". I know someone who uses that expression. Not very appropriate for the teacher to use, but it does conjure up a vivid picture!

We felt the earthquake here (Delaware and southern Pennsylvania ... about 200 miles from the quake's center). Freaked me out! I've never experienced one before.

Hi, Jan!
Laura, I'm still amazed at it, and I have never noticed one before. I was lying on the sofa finishing my book and thought initially that I must have dozed off without realizing it and jerked awake. At the same time I knew it wasn't so - that something had shake-shake-shaken that sofa. We're a little farther away than you......

Earthquakes and hurricanes, oh my! Glad to hear you're safe, please stay that way.

I heard about the earthquake here too. It was only 1km deep which seems crazy shallow to me (being an expert on them now). Scary things. It's pretty bizarre to feel the solid ground move. Its just not right.

Hi Peggy, Just read about 300 messages to catch up and see I missed so many great conversations about grammar on your previous thread, it was fun reading though. Earthquake? I missed that but haven't been keeping up on my current affairs recently, glad to hear you are all Ok though.

I just heard about the earthquake. I'm glad all of you are safe. It is a frightening experience. I thought earthquakes were just a west coast phenomenon. I grew up in California and we had regular quake drills at school. When the teacher gave the signal, we all ducked under our desk.

Hi to Heather, Megan, KN, and Jan! They are saying that the fact that it was so shallow meant that its effects spread farther than earthquakes on the west coast. I'm trying to think who among us 75'ers lives in Virginia; nobody springs to mind. My NY friend was on the 39th floor of her Manhattan office building which felt as though it were on springs for about 30 seconds. What I felt here lasted less than 5. I'm still amazed.
I've mentioned The Rift long ago on some disaster reader's thread. It's a huge summer-type novel about a near future earthquake on the New Madrid fault. Doesn't bear thinking about, but it's a dandy novel.
(I've ducked and covered only for the bomb and tornadoes, Jan.)

Duck and Cover---wow remember those days in grade school?? The teachers were so serious about it that we had to take it seriously too.

I've dealt with my fair share of young teachers who didn't realize that you can't just say anything that comes into your mind when dealing with parents. The fine art of appropriate language is not something taught in colleges preparing students for teaching careers I'm afraid.

We had an earthquake in CO this morning too. Very rare to have one here. It was near the border of NM. We didn't feel it up here in Denver. 5.5 or something like that. I grew up in So. CA, and I've been in so many little earthquakes that they probably don't scare me like they should. The one I remember scaring me the most was when we were in grad school in Berkeley. We were getting ready to move and all our belongings were stacked high in boxes in the living room. I thought we'd be buried in everything we owned. LOL.

Thanks for sympathizing regarding my son's math teacher. I think it's kind of funny that she kept saying "but he HAS to" about everything we said was a challenge for him. I imagined coming back to her in a couple of months and asking how that approach was working for her. It certainly hasn't worked around our house, she will have to discover that for herself, I suppose. We are working with the school counselor and getting some accommodations made for him, doing all the legal paperwork to force the teacher to do what we know works. He doesn't qualify for "special ed" even though adhd is a learning disability. Because his state standardized test scores are so high, they don't seem to know what to do with him.

Jenn, adhd is NOT necessarily a learning disability. Special education requires not only having a disability but requiring specialized instruction to learn. Many adhd children are able to learn but not to PERFORM in the classroom due to their disability. I assume you are doing a 504 plan for him, which requires school staff to make the accommodations he needs to show what he has learned. Best wishes for the process.

Peggy, my Wilmington friend opines that they will only get the fringe of Irene as it passes by, based on 30 years of observation. She seems to be heading further east.

Hello to Bonnie, Jenn, and Roni! I haven't heard anything about the Colorado earthquake, and it was only a little less powerful than Virginia's. I was going to assume that you're getting a 504 plan too. Very, very helpful to both the child and his teachers. Wonder why education schools don't teach a little about how to talk with parents? I had never thought of that.
Roni, the Weather Channel is also predicting a more easterly course for Irene, putting the coast farther to the north in jeopardy. We'll go ahead or cancel our weekend gathering sometime tomorrow, I suspect.

THE WINTER SEA by Susanna Kearsley
I haven't read a historical romance like this in years and years, and I found it absorbing and comforting. It's two romances for the price of one. Carrie McClelland, a writer, is researching the 1708 attempt to restore James III/VIII (do I have those numbers right?), the Pretender, to the throne of Scotland. She rides by Slains Castle, and it calls her. She moves her research from France to Scotland and not only meets a Scot but also begins to hear the story she was working on from the point of view of her ancestor, Sophia Paterson who was there. The stories of the two women intertwine in a most pleasing manner that kept me clicking "next page" on the old Kindle. Thanks to Suzanne, who mentioned that she was had gotten this one when it was on sale. So did I and found it a lovely summer occupation.

#60 Roni, Thanks, we are getting a 504, and our psychologist is working with the school to facilitate that. According to what I have been reading, adhd is becoming more accepted as a learning disability due to the gap between ability and performance that many kids with adhd exhibit. Now, that said, do I want my kid to think of himself as learning disabled? Not really. It's pretty hard to work out because he's a high performer in language arts and social studies and pretty much any area that doesn't require a systematic process for doing well. For math, he really does need specialized instruction. I was pretty resistant to having him tested for adhd because I didn't want him labeled and I didn't want him labeling himself. The more I learn, the less I'm worried about the adhd. It's not what I thought it was, it's generally manageable. Exhausting, but manageable. We just need to jump through the hoops to get him the help he needs.

LOL Peggy. So true. I would say that only 3-4 of my son's teachers since kindergarten have needed such a class. A class called "How to talk to parents without offending them" OR "How to listen to parents because they might say something useful about the kid who has lived at their house for x number of years and you've only known for a week". It's a little like trying to get insurance companies to pay for preventive care. I tried to set up a meeting with all the teachers and the counselor before school started. They didn't have time. So, here we are. The last time we were so stunned by a teacher was when his 1st grade teacher told us he wasn't as smart as we thought he was. Wow. Every now and then I think about dropping by with his CSAP scores - 95th percentile nationally in language arts - and saying that it turns out he's actually smarter than we thought... I get a little Mama-Bear-ish. Sorry. I get over it. Eventually.

Thanks for listening, and for the support. I will stop venting on your thread now. :P

The Winter Sea sounds like just what I need this weekend. I like a good comfortable historical romance very much.

Jenn, I'm sure that you will enjoy The Winter Sea unless you have something against competent writing or Scots.
You vent all you want! If your husband is the reader that you are, no wonder your son has exceptional language skills!!! Meanwhile, check to be sure that all the teachers are following the accommodations listed in his 504.
And the other side of the coin. I blanched every time I heard a parent say, "We do hope you'll be able to do something with _____ this year. (S)he won't pay any attention to us." I heard it more than once or twice!
I think the problem now is how many of the people coming from Philly and Princeton and West Va. and Atlanta will want to drive in the rain............. We'll decide tonight.

Nope, nothing against competent writing or Scots, I checked.

Thanks for the Post-vent permission. :) I completely agree with you. I'd like to never be the parent who expects the teachers to solve parenting issues. Ack!

All the complaining aside, there are so many really good teachers who do their job well. My sister in law is one. She has worked for years in an inner city middle school. She started as an art teacher, but then moved into Reading. Most of the students are ESL and they move often. Her goal is to get them to a 5th grade reading level by the time they graduate from 8th grade. She has all the teachers on board with her program. They are doing integrated reading instruction in every single class and the kids who stay at least one year at that school usually jump 3 grade levels in reading. That kind of thing gives me goosebumps. So, three cheers for the teachers!

Three cheers for teachers for sure!!! My hat's off to your SIL and her team. I would have been grateful if most of my "regular" 11th graders had come to me reading on a 5th grade level. I knew they weren't when I gave them 6th grade material (so-called high interest, low level), and they continued to flounder. But nobody else would admit that the situation was that bad, so of course, we didn't do anything to start to make a difference.
Anyway, our school starts tomorrow, and I wish them well.
Meanwhile, my Philly and S.C. mountain friends have decided to stay home to protect their property. I'd certainly do the same in their place, but they're my favorites. Oh well. It will still be fun. And it looks as though we won't even get any rain.
You guys in/near the path batten you hatches!

Our school system failures deeply trouble me. Yesterday I had a chance to volunteer at a food pantry in NYC, and people were allowed to specify on a form a certain number of bags of various kind of produce. They could put a number next to 'corn', for instance, or 'potatoes'. The form was exceptionally simple, but some people couldn't add up to 5 or 8 or whatever number of bags their family size permitted! I don't think they were trying to get away with anything - they just couldn't relate the directions on the form to the numbers and choices they had to make. Maybe they couldn't read. I had to coach one very nice youngish man to limit his order to 5 bags TOTAL - he reduced one count by one and I said - that still adds up to 7 - and he reduced another count by one and I said -now it adds up to 6. Oh, he said, I'm bad with numbers.

I really grieve for these folks. So much of everyday life management must go right past them. How can they create a budget, manage a family, get a job, when they can't figure out what 5 is? Or read the directions that say 'choose 5 bags total'?

Some of the people who came were very well-spoken and exact in their specifications, but others were to some degree bewildered by the simple process. Some came on the wrong day (each is assigned a day, to spread out the traffic, and their registration card clearly states the day). Some forgot they could only come every other week. Some asked us to figure out what their next date was - counting two weeks was too uncertain.

This is our country. How can we leave so many people so badly educated?

Oh dear, Judy. That's a truly scary anecdote. I'm afraid that I believe that your experience is typical. When I encouraged my 11th graders to figure how many pages of their books they had to read per day to finish in time for the assigned book report, they had to be walked through the process ("Look at the last page in the book. If your book doesn't begin on page 1, subtract the number of pages before the beginning from the total to see how many pages you have to read. If you've already started, ----") and were not able to follow without their calculators. This is our country. We are graduating kids who are functional illiterates.
I found this on YouTube. It purports to be a question to Miss USA candidates about the value of teaching math in school. I think it's a joke, but I'm not sure........

ETA: Uh oh. I looked on the official Miss USA 2011 page and recognized faces. Now I'm terrified.

MY ANIMAL LIFE by Maggie Gee
Since this is my ER book for July, I have a review on the book page. I was always interested in her memories. I swung back and forth about her philosophizing: pretentious claptrap to honest attempt to make sense of life. Finally, I came down on the side of honest attempt, and I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of The White Family so that I can taste her fiction.

>67 LizzieD: I don't believe it. There were too many funny lines - like 'leave it out of the equation'! And I can see the Miss America contestants participating in a spoof like this - they're not really as dumb as we think they are (at least not all of them).

But - we are an illiterate nation mathematically, if not in all ways. It is scary to see how many people know so little of what they need to negotiate the modern world.

Good for you! I won't believe it either - except that I almost do. "On the one hand, there is math. And on the other hand, there is - - - non-math." And then there was Miss Vermont, "Is this a joke?"

CEMETERY OF ANGELS by Noel Hynd
O.K. I won't be ashamed to admit that I read this one. I'll just be ashamed to admit that I bought Ghosts at the same time and will definitely read it when I need to be scared. The writing is mediocre. The internal logic is shaky. The premise is preposterous. Never mind. Even when I wasn't scared, I kept reading. Sometimes trash can be fun, and this was.

ETA: For you who are so good as to be concerned, I plan to go on my lake weekend. Irene is supposed still to be going far enough north and east of here that we won't be troubled. The lake may see some higher winds and rain but not enough to keep us from enjoying ourselves. Those of you farther up the coast, please do all the prep you're hearing about and be safe.

*waving* at Peggy

Here's hoping Irene stays far enough away not to complicate your weekend - have fun!

Have a wonderful weekend, Peggy. Glad you're out of the track of the storm.

Mr. Labwriter is a computer geek who has been in the business of "writing code" since 1982, and while I was reading the above depressing anecdotes about how our schools are graduating functional illiterates, he was watching the following You Tube clip.

It's been said that we are becoming a nation where the haves and the have-nots are becoming more extremely polarized. It's clear that we're not talking only about material things in that equation, but also about knowledge. I don't know how people live together in a society where some can't subtract 1 from 7 and come up with the right answer and others play around with little computer blocks and Fibonacci numbers.

Anyway, you might be interested to see what people are working on for the next generation of computers--"toy blocks that think."

Oh, and apropos of our discussion here: The other day I was mocked for using the word "actually," as in, "I'm actually here at this Y(MCA) because our pool is closed" (I was a little bit flustered because I was new to their place and I'd gone In their Out door, or something). The woman behind the desk replied, "Well, you actually have a dual membership, so if you're a member at Webster, then you're also a member here."

I wanted to say to her, "No lady, that's actually the way I talk."

Huh? What was she complaining about - a word with four syllables?

Greetings to Stasia, Amber, Becky, and Judy! Thank you for the good wishes. Even though I know we're not in any danger from Irene, I decided that I'd be happier at home. I took my assigned food this afternoon and had a good visit with the 4 friends who were already there. If all goes as well as I expect, I'll go back Sunday for another visit and maybe spend the night.
The siftables are mind-boggling. Thanks, Becky. I also don't know how people live together when everything about their lives are polar opposites. Time somebody was starting to figure it out!

75: Wow, those are cool! https://www.sifteo.com/ -- $150 for a set of 3 cubes.

#67 I watched the YouTube video of the question posed to Miss USA contestants. Scary thought, but I don't think it is a joke, Peggy. Yikes!

Be safe over the next few days.

I don't like the looks of the map this morning over the whole state of NC. Stay safe and check in when you can. That goes for everyone in Irene's path.

Thanks for the cubes link, qebo. The more I think about it, the less I think that those women would have the humor to do a spoof of themselves, Nancy. I wish I thought I was wrong.
We're fine here, Becky. I echo your wish for everybody in the storm's way. We had sustained winds all night - not strong but sustained like hurricanes do. It's still gusting this morning but not that creepy sustained stuff. I agree. Everybody, check in, please! I'm hearing that power cables are being turned off in lower Manhattan. That's really creepy.

While noodling around waiting for the wind to stop blowing so that I can go back to the lake, I found this piece of student writing. I'm sure I've posted it somewhere on LT before, but a search of Talk doesn't bring it quickly up, so I'm going to treat you to it again...... This was part of a project for a senior honors English class. I think that the assignment included a book review and some bibliographic research on the author. This young man should not have been in an honors class because he expected to get through the course by drawing beautiful pictures. In fact, he is the one who complained about a failing grade. I said, "You haven't turned in 3/4 of the work this semester." He said, "I know, but I didn't think you'd fail me."
So....paragraph by paragraph......

"KIM" , Rudyard Kipling
First of all, about Mr. kipling, he was born in the town of Bombay in 1865. He was the son of an highly aristocratic Indian Professor of Art or Architectural Sculpture. There he was bought up in the highly care of the native people or sometimes nurses. They taught him a form of religion or worshiping known as "Hindustani", and the native background of this dispicable learning, which must have extremely haunted this poor boy, while growing up in this weird town. That also may be one of the important reasons and resources why he later perhaps wrote the book, Just So Stories. I think it was at the age of six, he was aparently sent to school in England, called Westward Ho!, the scene of fairly good humans of basically the same background. Around the year of 1883 he finally returned back to India. Their he embarked on a career of journalism, writing the news stories as well as the tales and kindly ballads that must have began to make his reputation known around the world. After nearly seven whole years he at last moved back to England. So therefore he kept on moving back and forth to different places.

Stay tuned.

Good grief.

You should see some of the writing I see in college. But I don't want to get started on this; I'm feeling mellow so far today.

Wow. Looking forward to more gems like that. Or am I? Thanks for sharing, Peggy.

#84 Ditto.

Ack! Heaven forbid the young writer should commit himself to any of the information he may or may not have researched, apparently.

On the bright side he didn't just copy an encyclopedia article and try to pass it off as his own.

Okay, so there's not much bright side.

Good grief!

Haha, Peggy. Well, what you got from this young person is at least creative writing. What I got a lot of from my college students was creative cut and paste. I twisted myself into a pretzel teaching them that, no, you can't use paragraphs of someone else's work and call it your own. We used a very interesting internet tool that allowed us to find outright plagiarism. What I would do was submit an essay to this site, and if a student had cut and pasted a passage, it would be highlighted in red and the original citation would appear. This would also work for students who bought papers on the internet--the entire paper would light up like a pinball machine and the origin of the paper would be posted as well.

My point was never to spring a "gotcha" on a student. Many of them were either confused about how to cite references or they had never been taught anything about it. Many of my students had never written a research paper before--some of them juniors in college. I would always show them at the beginning of the semester what I could do with the plagiarism site (it was something called Turnitin!). Even so, every semester some student would choose to roll the dice and plagiarize an essay. Dumb. I can't say that I found 100%, but I do think I was successful in making them aware of how to cite sources correctly and how to avoid "unintentional" plagiarism.

I somehow misplaced yr new thread for ages and so missed all kinds of great discussions. One of the most outrageous plagiarisms I found when I was teaching was totally by accident. There were example student papers in the library at the community college and I just happened, idly, to look through them one day, while waiting to meet another student and there was an entire paper that a student of mine had handed in that week -- by someone else, five years earlier! What was he thinking!!! I was already suspicious as it seemed way too well written.

That's a good point, Sib. As a teacher, you get a gut feeling for this stuff--"way too well written"--heh.

#92-93 Exactly! On more than one occasion, I've googled a complete sentence from a suspect student paper, and found the source online. My thoughts were the same as yours, Lucy, What was he thinking. I now make all of my students sign a plagiarism policy which outlines strict consequences - too bad to have to do so, but that's what it is.

>91 labwriter:. Our institution had a trial subscription to Turnitin! a few years ago. The librarians were curious how faculty would respond, since professors occasionally call us to help them track down the source of papers they believe are plagiarized.

Our institution decided not to subscribe. It wasn't used much during the trial despite the administration's endorsement. One reason I heard for the faculty's indifference was this: if a professor suspects a student of plagiarism then he/she either has proof or does not. If the professor has proof, then Turnitin! and similar services are superfluous; and if not, then sending the paper to Turnitin! constitutes a breach of trust.

Personally, I suspect that many professors just really didn't want to know how much students plagiarize.

(I'm told that some international students especially struggle with plagiarism, since the definition varies widely among academic cultures. Apparently our idea of plagiarism is synonymous with other regions' idea of secondary-school composition.)

#95 I'm told that some interational students especially struggle with plagiarism This has also been the case in our school district.

I don't think the Turnitin! site was widely used at the school where I taught, and for the reason that you mention: I don't think many of the people I took classes from and also worked with wanted to know--because if they knew, then they would have to do something about it, and I'm just guessing here, but I don't think it was worth it to the ones who were on the professor track to risk their jobs over accusing a student of plagiarism.

I felt that since I was teaching Freshman comp, then it was part of my job to teach the students about plagiarism. Most of the professors who were assigning research papers didn't think it was their job to teach anything about writing. It's a hugely time-intensive job, and they just simply chose not to do it. As a student in an advanced English class, for example, my 20-page research paper would come back with an "A" on the top and almost no commentary, and certainly no commentary about my writing--that happened more often than not.

As far as the breach of trust is concerned: I ran into that attitude as well; I found it was often the "stated" reason for not paying attention to plagiarism. My feeling about that is that we coddle the people who are "probably" guilty at the expense of the students who are working to get it right.

Any professor who assigns a paper to be written from "sources" and who ignores the issue of plagiarism isn't doing his or her job. That's just my take on it, but most professors wouldn't agree with me, for the reasons stated above.

I had an interesting experience when I was a freshman in college. I was accused by my TA of plagiarism. I was mortified. I had used one of my Dad's old papers to write a paper for a World Civ. class. I didn't copy it, but I used a lot of his reference material. I was a little naive about research and didn't think through how his research would be 30 years old. I had to bring his paper in and show the TA that I had written a completely different paper, just used many of the same sources. He was very kind and taught me a lot about doing my own research. It was a good lesson.

I agree that it is not really a breach of trust to check for plagiarism. Trust must be earned and it is important to reward the students who are working hard. I know that in 6th grade, my son's writing teacher regularly checked the internet for phrases that she suspected were above 6th grade level writing and worked hard to teach them about plagiarism.

Checking for plagiarism is a breach of trust??? How about claiming someone else's work as your own?
By the time I retired I was the only teacher in the school teaching anything at all about research, and naturally I included both plagiarism and evaluating web sites. I don't understand why other people don't do this. Once when I was checking sources in the library, an up-and-coming assistant principal came by and asked me what I was doing. I told him, and his response was, "Isn't that a lot of work?" Well, yes. But it was my job. So thanks for all the comments and the agreement, you fine teachers! (I found google to do an excellent job with suspect content.)
Anyway, here is paragraph TWO!! (Refer to post #83 for paragraph one.)

"Furthermore, people have frequently assumed that the book, Kim were read as if it were only another children's book. But, in my opinion, I beg to differ, mainly because I barely understood what I was reading and trying to comprehend. It was such a difficult book to learn and do research."

(That's something of a heart breaker.)

That's a real heart breaker. I loved Kim. It is definitely representative of its time period, but beautifully written.

I adored Kim as a child and teen! And I certainly was not blind to the political ramifications thereof. But I loved Kipling's appreciation and gusto for all the different peoples. That old widow woman taught me to appreciate creative cursing and disdain four-letter words as not only vulgar but unimaginative. I still enjoy it as an adult, but was shocked to realize how little time Kim really spent with his Red Lama--that relationship was so central to me in the story.

I assume that at some point this fellow WILL address the story's content?

Hi Peggy, once again you have not failed to have me laughing out loud at your students. At our school, even fourth graders were taught how to cite a source and how not to plagiarize. But I understand that by high school some students liked the easy way out.

Hi, Jenn, Roni, and Bonnie. I'll give you more tomorrow, but I can assure you that at our schools in any grade nobody was taught how to cite a source and how not to plagiarize unless he ended up in Insane McLean's class.

unless he ended up in Insane McLean's class You are too much, Peggy! Sounds like a class I would enjoy : ).

Wow, imagine seeing checking for plagiarism as a breach of trust???!!! I would have argued the opposite -- that failing to teach students that plagiarism is wrong, and amounts to intellectual property theft, would be a breach of trust -- the trust that the students and parents have in the staff they pay to prepare the kids for the world. I'm speechless.

That said, I do know someone who was axed by the NY Times for one of those cases of "inadvertent plagiarism" -- when someone reads something by other people and then those turns of phrase spring to mind when writing one's own story. When I'm drawing on research/reporting by others, I'm paranoid about ensuring that neither the text nor the ideas can be linked that way. I've sometimes found that I've used the same turn of phrase and have to do a quick edit.

Peggy, am delighted you have been out of the storm's way, but deeply sad that you have to endure works like that on Mr. Kipling... Poor Rudyard, he doesn't deserve to be treated that way...

mnnnnnnnk

Sorry, that was Tigger adding his own comment to the debate.

Re haves and have nots -- what amazes me is the massive ground that separates the two extremes -- basic arithmetic vs. Fibonacci numbers. It seems as if there is no middle ground any more -- the world we inhabit has become so complex. It's as if there was no middle ground in literacy between "A Cat Sits on a Mat" and reading Plato in the original Greek.

Morning, Nancy and Suz, you two nightowls! (The kid who called me IM was one of my all-time favorite guys. We continue friends on fb.)
Exactly, Suzanne. I'm sure that the breach of trust is not teaching while pretending that kids have learned something. I am more happy than I can say to be out of it. You remind me of a time my junior year in college when I was in a class with a woman who struck fear in my heart. I really, really studied for her first test. When she gave the papers back, she asked me to stay after class. I had quoted the text extensively answering her questions. She gave me another question on the same material, and while I quoted a little, I had lost most of the word-for-word. She suggested that perhaps I had over-studied. I agreed. I can imagine trying to weed out somebody else's turns of phrase.
Tigger is welcome on my thread any time.
Sorry, back to the paper (and there's not a lot more of it) which I copied in messages 83 and 99:

"On a more positive note, Kim can be read as a uniquely modern source of the twentieth century charm and marginality. Although, Kim lived in a life of distraught and confusion, he always managed to amaze his fellow associates and friends of the Arabian Nights. The only thing about that was the missionaries and along with secretaries of highly societies could not see the beauty and originality of it. Kim's nickname was called 'Little Friend of all the World'. In the ladder part of the book, Kipling had personified and wrote about "the woman who looked after him insisted with tears that he could wear European clothes or garments. But, Kim found out easier to slip into Hindu or her type of religious clothing".

Was this person an English speaker or are they stumbling with a foreign language?

(Hi, Tad. This person was a high school senior of normal intelligence and English was his first language {although you may want to debate that}. My explanation is that he had never read enough to comprehend anything beyond a 4th or 5th grade level and had never had to write anything at all.)
Meanwhile, I know I'm crazy but I've just signed up 5 things for September TIOLI that are sitting on my current Mt. Aconcagua waiting to be read, and I NEED to read Matterhorn and Truman and can't see where to put them or how to get to them now......So there will likely be some deleting come September 30.
(To remind myself: Challenge 1, The Orlando Trilogy; Challenge 2, Sinai & Zion and The Secret Book of Grazia dei Rossi; Challenge 15, Inheritor and Kraken.)

The writing in that essay reminds me a lot of my son's writing -- and he has autism. He would definitely not enroll in an Honors English class. Never. Nor would I expect him to be accepted into one.

Another sign of lowered school standards: Our small school district has a single complex of conjoined buildings housing Elementary, Middle, and High Schools -- with the Media Center (library) at the center. There were originally two libraries side-by-side: one for the elementary school and one for the middle and high schools, each with its own librarian. When one of the librarians retired in June, they remodeled the two libraries into a single Media Center, and there is now only ONE librarian for the whole district -- her workload, it would appear, has essentially been doubled.

It was such a huge problem, Terri - what to do with kids in the honors program who didn't want to do honors work or who needed remediation before they attempted it. I did not ever teach an autistic child mainstreamed, but he would have gotten plenty of support. This kid had no support from anywhere; nobody thought he needed any. I don't know what I gave him on this paper (it was one of the only things that he turned in), but I'm sure that I gave him a lot of credit for an attempt. I see him as cutting and pasting without any clear idea of what's important or how any of it connects. You do get to read some of his very own words at the end of the paper - just to whet your appetite.
Meanwhile ----

MAYFLOWER by Nathaniel Philbrick
What a fine book this is! It's very readable and seems meticulously researched to me. I know that many of you have read it, and the only negative things I've seen about it are the later reviews here that reflect the reader's disappointment that it was not a novel or that it did not focus on adventure.
The first part of the book does deal with the original Mayflower settlers and their coming to terms with the harsh land and the natives. I learned a lot. The second part, though, continues the story of their descendents and their greed for land that blinded them to the way they were treating the Indians. I knew nothing about King Philip's War and what a sad time it was for everybody concerned. If I had ever heard of Benjamin Church, I don't remember, but he was the right man in the right place. I am very grateful to have this particular time opened to me, and I thank Jan for spurring me on to read it now!

I literally couldn't follow the chain of thought in that excerpt... very scary.
But how does someone get into an honors program without being able to do the work? That isn't a snarky question, I'm genuinely curious. I know that back in 9th grade I bounced back and forth between the "general" and "advanced" stream in science; was moved to the advanced when it was clear I could do the work, but then opted to move back to general because the teacher was better and the subject more interesting. But getting into an "A" stream class wasn't automatic; my science grades weren't up to par in grade 8 and they weren't going to move me into the A stream until they were. I don't remember my parents making a stink, either, unless they were irritable at me.

I suspect that if I tried to read Goethe, a biography, and some criticism about his work in German and write about him in German, the resulting mess might be about what you see here. You can't follow the chain of thought when there's not one. Our honors courses were often nothing of the sort. Any child who had made a B in a regular class was able to sign up for an honors course in the same subject the next year. This person got into my class because his teacher the year before had loved him and encouraged him to challenge himself. The teacher was my friend, and I feel bad talking about her, but she was a young woman who loved teaching rather than "English" or "Language Arts" or whatever we were supposed to be teaching. (She didn't really like to read - didn't often do it for pleasure.) I mean, that she came through school when teaching was all about methodology. Content was nothing. She taught 10th grade English at a time when all 10th graders were tested for writing. She said, "They don't actually have to write to prove that they can pass the test. Just get them to show their plan." She taught the plan by demonstrating "How to Eat an Oreo" with glass of milk and cookie in hand. This won her much praise from our peers and the administration. Kids loved her. Shoot. I loved her. But nobody learned anything much about our language or reading or writing or speaking or listening.

110: Adding Mayflower to the wishlist... ("not a novel" is a plus in my mind).

Oh, all this education talk is hurting my heart - as I get ready to go back to work on Tuesday! I have to say, our English curriculum is heavy on skill, but not so much on literature. There is a big push towards non-fiction right now. But my goal is always to help my students appreciate reading just a bit more than they did before my class.

Glad you enjoyed Mayflower!

Hello, qebo, Cait, and Anne. I would have been happy to teach in a place where the English curriculum was heavy on anything other than hands-on learning. (That means drawing cartoons and travel brochures and making collages and acting out a scene or a trial. More later.)
Continued from >106 LizzieD:

"A man in the story by the name of Ralph Waldo Emerson called Kipling one of his friend and confidant. He had assumably told Kipling that he was well on his way to excellence and constructed fame. He also commended him on the book , kim which I'm summing up, now. The final thing Mr. Emerson had told Kipling was that in the beginning he didn't have much faith in him, but always knew he could overcome the pain and terrible lively-hood which he had growing up in that type of environment and culture. Surely though, Kim afterall still lived with torment and constant nightmares of horrible experiences he kept dreaming of and fantasizing in his mind, when he was just a child in India. Terrible childhood memories have had a long and never-ending impression on him. In the long run Kim would hope for a better out look on life in the future and which soon got better for him."

Sobering stuff, Peggy. sigh. I want to rant, but I will spare you all.

So old Ralph just wandered in from left field? Somehow, I never got the impression that Kim disliked his upbringing that much, except for the time in the first English school, nor that he was inclined toward morbid introspection. Lizzie, I don't have much faith in you, but I know you can do it. Could this kid speak in coherent sentences?

Hello to Lucy and Roni. Oh yes, he was absolutely normal. His grammar wasn't great, but he talked in coherent sentences. You will get a sample of his writing "out of his head" ("You mean you expect us to write 1,000 words OUT OF OUR HEADS!?!?!??" asked another student.) at the very end. And thank you so much for that Emersonian vote of confidence, Roni. Now all I have to do is figure out what "it" is.

It continues to amaze me that some students arrive in grade 12 (never mind an advanced English class) with seemingly no ability on how to structure a paragraph or (gasp!) an essay. For these reasons, I try to teach a lot of writing skill - beginning with, if necessary (and sometimes it is), outlining exactly what each sentence in a paragraph needs to be about - a topic sentence, first supporting idea, example for first supporting idea, etc. It's repetitive stuff to plow through, but I've seen the results. I know there are many ways to structure a paragraph, but I figure if I can teach students ONE way, perhaps they will begin to achieve some success in writing. Also love what Cait had to say about hoping to instill even a bit more appreciation for reading than they had before my class. My other mission is to try to teach something about the diversity of language - the ways in which we use language differently to achieve different purposes - AND that the language we use must suit our purpose (I refuse to read student email messages sent in text speak, hehe). Phew, can tell it's time to go back to work! I also start Tuesday.

End of soap box.

#110 - I really enjoyed Mayflower as well. My mother read it and gave it to me and told me "read it, it's about your ancestors." One of the men who signed the charter is one of my great-great somethings. I learned a lot about the Indian tribes that I didn't know before, as well as things about the settlement and its governance. I thought it was well researched and very interesting.

#116 - Just when I thought it couldn't get worse, it does. I have always felt that my ability to write was directly connected to what I had read. Reading good books, well written books, taught me what language should sound like and how sentences should be structured. This is why I lean toward the "it really matters what kids read, not just that they are reading" camp. What we read affects how we write.

I agree with all this discussion of writing. I've never taught (formally, that is), but I have tried to impress on those who asked me for advice that the most important aspect of writing is clarity. I'll forgive misspellings and even occasional grammar errors if I can figure out what someone is trying to tell me.

This carries over into my work, which involves writing code. The worst-written programs may work when initially written, but if they are not intelligible, the effort to enhance them to serve new business needs is horribly difficult. It's easier to rewrite the whole thing sometimes. People with degrees in the liberal arts can do very well in programming, if they view it as a need ot communicate clearly according to the rules. People who can't write well may be good administrators, but keep them away from the code!

Hi, Nancy, Jenn, and Judy. Do we feel like little Dutch boys sticking our fingers into the dykes? At least we're all in it together. That's a very interesting look at coding, Judy. I had no idea!
Nancy, I'd want my child in your class.
Jenn, I agree that in time kids need to read good stuff, but I would have been happy if this kid had read and understood anything at all.

What is really sad to me is watching how my third, fourth, fifth and sixth grade teacher teach systematically, explicitly, strongly, and constantly how to structure sentences, paragraphs, narratives and expository writing, every single day--and students still arrive in high school like this.

Peggy, how old was the author of the Kim essay? I'm afraid I'm hopelessly lost with American grades and descriptions like seniors and honors. What is an honors progam? (Look at me being good and using American spelling and all!)

I've also signed up for too many September TIOLI challenges including Foreigner by Cherry. I'm slightly reluctant to start a 13 book series of which I would need to buy another 12 books if I like the first one though.

Roni, the thing is that our teachers do not teach systematically, explicitly, strongly, and constantly how to structure sentences, paragraphs, narratives, and expository writing, every single day. I'm sorry to say so, but they do not. We do have one 6th grade teacher who does what she does effectively. That means that my better students arrived in the 11th grade (they would then be 16 or 17, Heather) writing a 5 paragraph essay like this.....and I mean word for word like this:
P 1: I am going to tell you three things about my topic. Thing one is ----. Thing two is ----. Thing three is ----.
P 2: The first thing is ----. ---------
P 3: The second thing is ---. -----
P 4: The third thing is ---. -----
P 5: I have now told you three things about my topic: thing one, thing two, thing three.
I could just about break the smarter ones from this in a semester and start to replace it with something a bit more sophisticated. I always said I wished for her power. Otherwise, it's pretty grim. The young woman I referred to before teaches 10th graders to plan a piece of expository writing, but she does not ask them to write. (One reason is that until three years ago, N.C. did not use mechanics to evaluate those state essays.) My colleague who taught AP Language, but who is no longer there, spent lots of time asking her students to produce a powerpoint essay, but they practiced only one prompt the first year that she taught the course. I'll stop. I know that we are at the bottom of the education heap. I'm concerned that the rest of the country seems to be following us.
And, Heather, to answer your question, the young man who wrote that whatever it is was 17 or 18. Gah. An honors program is supposed to prepare students for a liberal arts education. I am a C.J. Cherryh fan and have rashly signed up for the 3rd book in the series. I've gotten my copies, 1-9, from PBS and expect to complete the set that way. I can be quite satisfied reading one a year.

FRIDAY'S CHILD by Georgette Heyer
*FC* is one of the fluffier of GH's regencies. Our heroine Hero is only 17 when she marries the slightly older Sherry as a matter of convenience for both of them. She doesn't want to be a governess, and he wants to gain control of his fortune. Hero has loved Sherry all her life, but he expects to continue to enjoy his bachelor existence of gaming, hunting, boxing, dining out without any changes. Many tangles ensue, made worse by Sherry's brainless but good-hearted friends. Good breeding and true love triumph, and the reader - or rereader in my case - has a lot of fun along the way.

#126 Thanks for the explanation Peggy. I'm glad you don't have to teach there anymore - it sounds like it must have been incredibly frustrating.

I liked Friday's Child when I read it earlier this year - fluffy but fun sums it up pretty well I think :-)

Heather, I apparently continue to have unresolved issues with that school. I can't tell you how glad I am to be out of it!

The Penultimate Paragraph. Tomorrow, he speaks in his own voice.

"To basically sum up this British novel on "Kim", it was an very magical, mystical, or magestical outcome sturring up with danger and excitement. Kipling's one of many books was so intriguing because of it's nature with the life back then in India and also in England. I have greatly learned about the British Empire and the exotic home of the kings and princesses. Kim was naturally born eager of love and desiring intrigue of a thirst for the unknown that destined him for the absolute adventure and dangerous paths for somewhat of destruction and irresistable joy of exploring the world and the unknown lands of the universe. His absolute kindness and touching friendship with an mysterious lazy holy man lead to a fantastic quest for the lost enchanting river of the arrows, which was near England in the high class community."

(Among other things this illustrates two very, very common writing practices that I never could correct. an mysterious I could never figure out, nor could they tell me, why they used "an" incorrectly. They certainly didn't say, "an mysterious." eager of Strange use of prepositions abounded, and again the writing did not reflect what the kid normally said. My other inexplicable pet peeve was "one women." I never understood it; I guess they never understood why I was exercised about it.)

>125 souloftherose:: Heather, the Foreigner series is quite interesting. However, I'm sorry to say, it's not "another 12 books if I like the first one"...it will be at least "another 14 books" since it's not done, yet. :-) She is writing them in trilogies so we may see an end at #15—it feels as if that will be the case. Fortunately, many of the volumes are available in remainder sections.

I have to say, I'm looking forward to #13, Intruder, which is in progress now.

Someone evidently taught him to use adjectives to create "seven-up" sentences! This gives me a wholly new, magestical view of Kim, the lazy lama, and the (quite accurate description of the) river, now near England and only to be found in the high class community. Priceless! This sturs up my memories of the book all in hyperboles.

I don't know about "seven-up" sentences, Roni. You might be right. I still hold by the copying and pasting method although I know that the 10th grade teacher encouraged use of vocabulary without actually teaching any.

Anyway! I won an ER copy of REAMDE!!! Virtue Triumphant!!! I asked only for that one, and I was completely caught up with my ER reviewing. Thank you! Thank you!! THANK YOU!!!

#129 Thanks Tad (I think - as if I need more books to read)

#131 Congratulations!

Hooray for your ER book!

Finally we learn the location of the lost enchanting river! No wonder it was lost.
This kid's writing reads like the writing of my high school ESL friends. They had very good vocabularies and were generally well educated where they came from, but writing in English was difficult. I would help them sometimes with their reports. I am amazed that a native English speaker could write this badly. I probably should not go into any HS Lit classrooms. My head would explode. Would you buy into the idea that he didn't actually read Kim at all?

Hi to Tad (with thanks for clarifying *The Foreigner* series.....I like *Chanur* too, but Cyteen is by far my favorite Cherryh) and Heather (Thank you for the congratulations!!) and Jenn. If I had to guess, I'd say that he struggled through maybe 20 pages of Kim.

You mean, Peggy, after all that, he didn't even read the book?????? Wow! I'm speechless! Well, not quite, as you can see. My favorite----lively-hood that's the neighborhood on the west side where they have a lot of fun;-)

"lively-hood" That's great, Bonnie!
I was the last old lady hold-out who assigned independent reading. By that last year of teaching only about a third of the class tried to write the assignment, and of those I'd guess that only 4 or 5 had actually read their books. This guy was likely not one of them. I'm telling you, "They cannot read."

Dear, oh dear!

My son is thirteen and in a UK state, secondary school. He loves reading and has a natural way with words.

One thing which concerns me about the homework he is set is, that at this stage, plagiarism seems to be inadvertently encouraged. The children are asked to complete homework on computers, sometimes in a Powerpoint format. I have seen my son directly cut and paste information for his work just because it is so easy to do so. I have told him the reasons he shouldn't do this but his teachers have never picked him up on it. I am concerned that the children will develop this habit when very young and have a shock when it becomes an issue in the exam years.

On the plus side, my son's school is finally getting a library after years without one! There was a library in the original school apparently but it was replaced by a computer suite :-(

Peggy, I don't know whether to laugh or cry about that Kim 'review'! I was going to ask the question Heather did, about age etc. I don't know what the equivalent age young people studying English would be writing in the UK, but since our system makes people narrow down their choices post 16 to just 3 or 4 subjects at 'A' level, I would hope that means that only those with a real interest in reading books and an ability to write about them would be studying English. But I am probably wrong!

Dee's comments (#137) about homework being set in Powerpoint format in her son's school reveals how much the world of school has changed since my day. What is the point of using that format, I wonder? At best it will teach them how to make dull presentations, since a powerpoint slide show that contains the full text of a talk is not the best way to make a presentation. The slides are good for headings, bullet points and quotations or illustrations, but not ideal for the full script of a talk.

The powerpoint bit was dismaying.

I'm dismayed too, Dee and Lucy, but that's what the cutting edge (!) teachers are assigning over here too. Oh dear. Oh dear. I can't tell you the point, Genny, except that they might be easy to grade......

The Last Paragraph. He writes in his own voice.....

"Kim was a very unique book in its own way and it was one of the more difficult and painful books, I believe I've ever read. I really don't ever read British novels that very often, but this was an knew experience for me to read "Kim". Rudyard Kipling too me, in my own words or thoughts would be "hard-working", brave, loyalty, and extremley sensitive about his works. I have also gotten some of his poems and games, on the other sheets, if you would like to see.
Rudyard Kipling on the Internet!!!"

(In his favor I notice that he has very few sentence fragments except when he gets into such a semantic tangle that he doesn't know where he is. That's remarkable and not typical.)

Ah, the end! I am going to miss these bits of the Kim essay. Thank you for posting this in serial form, Peggy. It has been a joy and concern reading this tortured essay. It's a good thing Jenn wrote such a good review of Kim recently or I would never touch this book with a ten-foot pole. I'm glad I was spared the agony of being an English teacher. I hope I did a better job as an elementary teacher helping these kids put their thoughts on paper than your student's early teachers.

One of the most difficult things I did as an adult literacy tutor recently was to guide Cindy through the process of writing a short paragraph. We had to do lots of practice work with LEA (Language Experience Approach) writing before she felt comfortable writing on her own. I think some people have an inborn aversion to the written word. So sad.

Thanks for sharing, Peggy. I think. :)

Powerpoint...they can make the presentation, but can they give it?

I recently attended my 7th grader's back to school night. The phrase "21st century skills" was used over and over and over. It appears to be some kind of catch phrase for using the internet at school. Apparently the school spent oodles of money over the summer setting up the school with wifi so that the students could use their iphones, ipads, laptops, etc. at school for learning. Considering that they also spent 10 minutes explaining the "use of personal devices" policy (no phones or itouches on or out during school), I was a bit confused. Also, if I hear "21st century skills" again...
I am guessing most of those kids could teach their teachers a thing or two about the internet. I know I always ask my 12 yr old first if I can't figure out something on the computer. He usually knows.

They have also rolled out a new math teaching program which looks to be as successful as anything else they are doing. Apparently, the national standards for math have been raised (meaning that my 2nd grader has just effectively skipped over 2nd grade math and is now being taught 3rd grade math). In 7th grade it appears to be committee math. My son told me they got together in a group and discussed the best way to determine the area of a cube. He said, "Mom, isn't there an equation for that?" Yeah.

Why can't they do both things - teach them the math and show them the proofs? Why does it seem like it's either one or the other? Peggy's example: encouraged use of vocabulary without actually teaching any is a perfect illustration of what seems to be happening all the time.

SIGH.

Fascinating discussion! I can reduce my rant to this: The fact is most people learn best of all one-on-one. Since that isn't practical, 1 to 8 is a reasonable ratio for serious learning. Older kids should always be teaching younger kids. The best way to learn something is when you have to teach it. Grades? Bleah. Forget school as a babysitting tool.

Radical, yes, but that's the bottom line. We can't do it because it is too expensive....... so........ hence the hopeful factory model, where the goal is toward the median, the best for the least, a lot of compromising, and any student who doesn't fit on that narrow spectrum of 'average' becomes a problem. And the ones who are average are lost in the shuffle.

I think it is just possible that with really really creative use of the internet something like the little red school house could be reforged. I'm too old to figure it out, but I'm an eternal optimist.

Hello to Donna, Jenn, and Lucy. Donna, the thing is that if a kid is going to learn to write, he has to practice writing. I'll readily admit that it's not fun or easy or natural at first for most people, but we can all learn to be better than we are. I never knew what I thought until I wrote it down; still don't. Today's kids apparently don't know what they think until they've discussed it with their peers - or at least, this is what we're told, and I suspect that Jenn's son's math-by-committee was developed to use this. I've seen them develop amazing insights some times and amazing weirdness others. At any rate, what you did with Cindy was right. And Lucy is right; that kind of one-on-one is what everybody needs to get going. Our school did allow us to tutor after hours, but by my last year almost nobody was staying with me voluntarily. I saw that change drastically over my 13 years there. And Jenn, You are ranting my rant. I don't care how handy a kid is with 21st century technology. If he can't read what is on whatever screen he's looking at - or if he can't follow when somebody reads it to him (and boys are notoriously bad at listening until they are in their early 20's if we are to believe the research), then his 21st century skills are no good at all. I wish somebody would address that.
Now on a personal note, my mother and I made a flying visit to the beach this afternoon on the spur of the moment. Visited a bit with my aunt and uncle, watched the surf and read a little, ate an O.K. seafood meal, and came home. I'm delighted. We missed the holiday weekend traffic, and I can finally have a normal weekend at home.

NEW IN SEPTEMBER

(---but ordered in August)
The Namesake - PBS
Lives of the Monster Dogs - PBS and Messenger of Truth as a gift added in
(Real September!)
Daughter of Earth - a gift!!!!!

(Real September)
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - Kindle Daily Deal, and what a deal it is!
Harry Truman's Excellent Adventure - Kindle
Fasting for Ramadan - June ER selection
Soulless - Kindle Daily Deal

Oh how I would love to go to the beach. It's not happening anytime soon. How nice to go with your Mother. Tomorrow night we are going to see Allison Krauss and Union Station at Red Rocks. It's supposed to be 79 for a high tomorrow, oh lovely change from 98. Perfect for an outdoor concert. I might even need a sweater!

Hooray for a new book! I liked The Namesake. There is a well done movie too, have you seen it? My favorite of hers is Interpreter of Maladies.

One of the reasons I DO like the school district where I live is that they truly are trying to address the issue of the factory model. We have neighborhood schools, many public charter schools, home schoolers who are supported by the neighborhood schools, commonwealth schools and private schools. They even tried (very controversial) to give back a percentage of the per pupil revenue to parents to use for private school tuition. Of course they are dealing with a law suit relating to that. However, I am taking full advantage of the many choices I have here. My children have been at charter schools, one still is. I have home schooled with the support of the school in the way of textbooks, etc. My 7th grader is back in the neighborhood middle school because that was the best fit for his needs right now. If at some point we need something different, I have options. I really believe that a community needs to be able to fit their school system to their particular needs. This is why I don't believe that a federally mandated thing like No Child Left Behind works. It will naturally happen where I live (suburban mecca of the upwardly mobile) it will not happen in an inner city district like where my SiL teaches. They have different needs and the "adequate yearly progress" needs to be measured on an individual basis. I'm not saying there shouldn't be standards, just that the measure needs to fit the needs of the district. In my district, grade level to grade level progress is a good measure. In hers, kids are starting 7th grade at a 2nd grade reading level. How about if they progress a grade level or more in their reading skills? That should be adequate to continue funding a school.

Nothing like the subject of education to get me in full rant. :)

I literally can't remember when I didn't write. Now, as a friend of mine constantly reminds me, I am not normal. I am not a yardstick. But... I'm actually more articulate when I'm writing than I am when I speak, because I can take a bit more time to structure my thoughts. Particularly when I'm upset or angry, this extra time is extremely valuable -- I can translate emotional outburst into icily cutting comments.

I know I was very lucky in my schooling. But I see a lot of people here from very varied backgrounds, all of whom are extremely articulate. Again, perhaps we aren't normal. But that fact -- the diversity of backgrounds and educational experiences -- proves to me that something better IS POSSIBLE.

I've done tutoring for new immigrants, many of whom would be embarrassed to have crafted some of those sentences. I literally had to stop reading because it became too painful -- although I admit that when I read the sentences your student wrote in his own voice, it became somewhat less agonizing.

One idea: to the extent that kids who struggle with writing down their ideas can still do well articulating them, would it make sense to have them try to make an oral argument/presentation to the class, tape it, and then ask them to use their taped presentation as the basis for an essay? I realize it's thinking backwards, but...
An exercise I practice all the time as it's a great way to detect stupid circular logic and weird sentence structure is to read what I've written aloud. My guideline is that I shouldn't have to stop to take a breath during a sentence, unless there's a comma or other punctuation. I've used this in tutoring sessions and (with my students, at least), there's an almost instant recognition -- yeah, this makes no sense to me as a listener. After that, the question becomes one of how to edit it so that it does make sense.

Of course, you're left with the other fundamental problem of whether there were any ideas at the heart of that essay. But that's a more 'normal' kind of issue, no?

I'm not sure that it matters whether students read novels or non-fiction. As long as they are reading, and as long as they are writing. When it's a language arts class, it strikes me that it's about communication -- the ability to use words to share ideas and experiences. Some folks are drawn to memoir, for instance, while others prefer their drama fictionalized. But it comes down to the same challenge: using words to create emotions, to get a reader to think and make connections, to spark ideas.

Normal or not, I'd really like to have dinner with all of you. It would be a long dinner. I am sure it would be lovely.

We need to get to work on the "tome home"!

#149: I am in! I vote you in charge, Suz :)

"I'm actually more articulate when I'm writing than I am when I speak, because I can take a bit more time to structure my thoughts." - I'm the same, Suz. (My main writing is for something to be delivered orally, ie sermons, but I have to write my text to avoid waffle, and long rambling sentences with no beginning or end, which would be the result if I spoke without a script).

Normal, not me! I don't think anyone is, articulate or not... but I agree it would be a lovely (long) experience to have dinner all together - in a tome home or wherever else we can manage.

Fabulous discussion on education! My province is also now on the 21st Century Learning bandwagon. I've yet to hear a clear definition of exactly what 21st Century Learning is, but it is the recipient of tens of millions of education dollars (is it moot to say I think these funds could be much better directed?) And as another LTer noted, why does the pendulum always have to swing all one way and then all the other way? If our efforts and millions were directed into teaching practical skills, reading and writing come to mind!, rather than selling the latest think-tank sketchy theory about - what is it about, anyway? Oh, well, you get my drift.

I'm rereading (listening) to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and while the book is dated here and there, today's chapter was on teaching rhetoric at the U of Montana. One student said: I want to write about the whole USA in 500 words. Of course she couldn't do it. So he said, OK do Bozeman. She couldn't do that. So he said: Do Main Street. Nope. Finally he said. See that building over there? Write about it starting with that brick in the upper lefthand corner, one brick at a time. She wrote 3000 words and even though it wasn't very good it was real writing. So after that he had them write about things like 'the back of your thumb' or ' a coin'.

Jenn, Suzanne, Stasia, Genny, Nancy, Lucy, you almost make me wish that I were teaching again. I have to remind myself that what I did that last year was not teach but babysit. I'm glad that you have options for your kids, Jenn. Most parents with options here send theirs to one of two private schools, and I think that they may have a better education in communication skills than the ones who stay in the public schools. I've taught in both, but my time in the private school was 20 years ago when everything was different. We don't want to get me started on NCLB. How comparing last year's class to this year's class gives any valid data at all has always been beyond me. We are beginning to see more teaching & administrative cheating on the year-end tests, and the surface hasn't been scratched.
Anyway, Suzanne, I also endorse asking kids to develop tape recorder ears (how dated is that?) so that they can understand what's actually on the page as opposed to what they meant. I used to pair them with somebody they liked and trusted and had each kid read his friend's paper aloud so that friend could hear what was there. That was helpful, but when I tried it the last year, many of them hadn't done the assignment and it was an invitation to chaos.
And Lucy, speaking anecdotally again (although I have seen some research to back this), our students did a much better job of writing creatively than they did academically. Somehow the real writing that comes out in description of the building and the thoughts that inspires doesn't carry over into exposition. Part of the problem is interest, of course. It's a lot more fun to write about the back of your hand than about why school uniforms are/are not a good idea. I think people should be able to do both.
Take me to my TOME HOME! Wouldn't that be amazing?
(I'm enjoying my time with the Trumans and Kraken and The Orlando Trilogy, which I just got into this afternoon.)

Jenn, Suzanne, Stasia, Genny, Nancy, Lucy, you almost make me wish that I were teaching again. I have to remind myself that what I did that last year was not teach but babysit. I'm glad that you have options for your kids

It's unfortunate that so many teachers and administrators, after years of frustration and lack of support, end their careers on a sour note. I remember my very first teaching position oh so many years ago and my principal said to me, "Don't let them take the stars out of your eyes." That had a lot more meaning for me as the years wore on. Teaching is hard, hard work. It takes an incredible amount of energy to do a good job and even the best teachers end up feeling worn out and wondering if what they do matters at all. It's a bad, bad system we've created. I'm not sure how to make it better but we'd better do something because the rest of the world is passing us by.

Somehow, we need to energize communities. I know that in the last 5 years there has been incredible energy in our community regarding education. Many improvements have been made because parents, kids and educators have become involved in making the changes they thought needed to happen. We don't always agree, but there is a lot of work being done and a lot of progress made. I would love to see education decisions made on the local level more often. Give teachers more control of their curriculum and less paper work, fewer administrators and more $$ to pay teachers... I could go on and on.

I am so with you Jenn!

Bonnie, Jenn, and Lucy, you are all preaching to the choir, which is me. "Give teachers more control of their curriculum and less paper work, fewer administrators and more $$ to pay teachers." Giveteachers???? What a novel idea! I am weary of making teachers 100% responsible for whether learning takes place. I understand the appeal of the idea. Teachers are the only group that higher ups have any control over. In my school kids and parents had almost completely abdicated any responsibility for education. Our former principal changed grades regularly and for no reason other then to make drop-out rates look better. I don't know how to wake people up, but Bonnie is right. We have to make some gigantic changes soon, and we could if only we cared as much as we say we do.

People who don't know how to teach get get very hung up on statistical progress, which is what we are seeing so much of these days. Sad. But it's the only way they know how to measure teaching. And since they generally have the money or at least the ballot, they can get very full of themselves and their own opinions

Suzanne and others, I think reading your work out loud is one of the best ways to discover if you've made any sense, and if you've told the story or conveyed the argument that was in your head. It's even better if you have a chance to put it away for a few days, so you're not still in the cloud of your thoughts, and so won't unconsciously fill in what was left out or muddy.

If kids could just get to the point where the writing is clear, I wouldn't care so much about the creativity shown. We have all been so starry-eyed about creativity, we've forgotten to teach the basic tools that will allow the creative mind to be expressed.

I see such bad writing in corporations that it actually hinders the work. It's both frustrating and scary. The smallest explanatory comments in a procedure or program can be completely befuddling, and it's always the business that's blamed (Oh, finances are so complex) instead of the manner of communication. That's my gripe about 21st century education, so-called. Sure, you can find stuff on the internet, and you don't even have to spell it correctly - Google will ask what you mean if you're close enough. But can you write a clear, declarative sentence, ask the question that is most on-topic and most helpful, or explain what has to be done?

Genny, when you have to deliver a sermon from something that you've written, how do you make it sound as if you're not reading from a text? That's the trick I'm trying to master right now. I gave a speech last year, and I could almost feel people in the audience tuning out. So when I did another one in April, I went back over the written speech and pulled together note cards with bullet points, so that I couldn't stray too far and start rambling. I'm not sure I accomplished it, but I did feel better with the result.

Judy, speaking of corporations and writing... I know people who make millions who are in awe of my ability to string together a sentence. They can earn vast amounts of $$ and yet really end up feeling ashamed at their inability to master something that they have come to think of as straightforward -- writing. I wonder if students realize that this isn't about outwitting a teacher today, but about a student and teacher conspiring to give the student an edge in the future??

Bonnie, I wonder whether that burned out feeling -- whether what they do matters -- isn't common to many professions after a certain # of decades. Certainly, I rarely feel starry-eyed about what I do. I know medical professionals who are far more pragmatic in their 40s than they were in their early 30s. The folks I really feel sorry for are those who were never able to care passionately about what they do -- which I fear is the majority of the world. We're lucky to have had careers that we could be passionate about, even if it leads to disappointment and disillusion. Or so I tell myself...

When I win the lottery, or become the next Danielle Steel, I will build the tome home. Really.

#160 I don't know if I always succeed, Suz, but I what I do is make sure I keep my head up most of the time, with plenty of eye contact with the congregation/audience, and just glancing back at the script for the next sentence. (I don't use note cards and bullet points). I also find myself ad libbing a bit, adding an unscripted aside or a fuller explanation. The difficulty then is picking up the thread afterwards, and there are sometimes what seem to me to be awkward joins, but I was discussing this with a friend recently and she says she is not aware of the joins. It may also be a matter of writing style to begin with - if the style is more conversational and less formal, perhaps it makes the transition to spoken delivery more easily.

Fundamentally, do whatever makes you feel more relaxed and confident in delivering your material - and the more you practise, the easier it gets!

And remember, whatever your speech is about, you're telling a story. It's not just delivering a message, but talking to each person in the church or the audience directly.

Acting (which I've done from time to time) requires memorization of lines, but they mean nothing and come out horrible if the actor saying them doesn't know why those are the lines that must be said. What is the character's intention? Why am I saying this? What do I want to get? It's much the same with speeches - what do you want to tell the people who are in front of you? And it's important to remember that people want you to succeed, to engage them, so if you give them a chance to latch on, they'll more than likely grab it.

Of course, that might not be true of teenagers in school, but it's generally true of people who showed up willingly.

Once again, Judy, you and I agree: "If kids could just get to the point where the writing is clear, I wouldn't care so much about the creativity shown. We have all been so starry-eyed about creativity, we've forgotten to teach the basic tools that will allow the creative mind to be expressed." Creative kids are going to be creative. People who are not in the schools have no idea! I attended a workshop for 10th grade English teachers (the year of the state writing test, based on world literature, which N.C. still requires 10h graders to read exclusively) led by a woman from the N.C. State Department of Public Instruction. Her idea was that each school could encourage kids to become experts - an Ibsen expert, a Kafka expert, a Camus expert - and go around teaching students at other schools. Ahem. Wonder what kind of speech my Kipling expert above would have made? Nobody would admit that the kids can't read. Nobody. I admit that the teachers in my school ranked 109 of 121 high schools in the survey, so what we're offering isn't top of the line. I also believe that the line dips lower and lower.
Suze and Genny, I've been thinking about public speaking. Judy is right again; people prefer to be entertained rather than bored. Of course in church or wherever you're speaking, Suze, you can't force an audience to get up and do the Hoky Poky or "Head, Shoulders, Knees and Toes" when you feel that you're losing them.

Oh I don't know about that! I love the image! I'll bet some ministers out there HAVE done just that when they see too much nodding and yawning.

Ah. Clear writing. What a concept. I have worked for several different industries in the capacity of editing their written documents. Everything from nursing home manuals to online repair tutorials for printers. My overall impression was that people who were good at their work had a terrible time expressing their knowledge in writing. It is pretty depressing.

you can't force an audience to get up and do the Hoky Poky or "Head, Shoulders, Knees and Toes" when you feel that you're losing them.

It works in Junior Sunday school at church, why not in school or the work place? LOL.

147: An exercise I practice all the time as it's a great way to detect stupid circular logic and weird sentence structure is to read what I've written aloud.

My father used to do this with his college students (generally upscale and native English speakers) when they submitted mangled papers and were distressed about the resulting grades. Many students, as soon as they heard what they'd written, realized that it didn't make sense, but apparently they had not made this connection previously.

#166 I've also had students who didn't like grades read their parts of their papers aloud to me. I'll always remember one of my grade 12s looking at me incredulously and saying, "That doesn't make any sense!" Aha moment!!

Yep, that works, qebo and Nancy. So does having the two students with the same paper read their copies in unison. (Often they are amazed that teacher read them.) So does asking them to read their lousy handwriting, which almost always produces a sheepish laugh.
Hey, Lucy. Jenn, I wish I could do exactly that kind of work for a little extra $. I thought about it before I retired, but now I'm so blissful that I don't want to bother with it.

I thought about it before I retired, but now I'm so blissful that I don't want to bother with it. Three cheers for retirement, Peggy! I'm with you!

Same here, Peggy! I am SO glad I told the university I didn't want to teach that class this fall.

Dear Nancy and Roni, I don't know about you, but I was born to retire if I couldn't be rich. So happy to have achieved one of them!
I am enjoying Truman about as much as anything I've read this year. I always thought that he was a good President, but I didn't really know anything about the man himself. I suspect that I'm going to think that 992 pages are not enough to do him justice.

Catching up on over 100 posts Peggy and I have to say what a fascinating education discussion you all are having. I've really enjoyed the many opinions and the 'Kim' essay was certainly a huge eye-opener.

Sometimes even reading papers aloud doesn't help.

Back in college there was a guy in my dorm who two or three times a week would wander into the lounge and ask, "Does this make sense?" and then read some awful first draft he'd just completed. The guys watching television would agree that it did, just because they knew if they said otherwise he'd be back in five minutes with something worse.

One late night near finals I was in a snippy mood and gave him two bits of advice. One, if you have to ask then it doesn't make sense. Two, your professor assigned Strunk/White for a reason.

#173 - I am sure you did him a huge favor. :) That is, if he took your advice.

Happy Monday (Tuesday) everyone. While I love the extra day to the weekend, I'll be off a day all week.

I think I was born to be retired too. Not that I want to rush through life as it is now, but I sure do like to do what I want, when I want.

I'm glad to hear you're enjoying Truman, Peggy. I loved it--didn't want it to end.

Hi, Leonie, Swynn, Jenn, and Becky! Leonie, I saved that paper because it was extraordinary, but other kids wrote just that badly or worse. On the other hand, a few of them made 4's or 5's on their AP exams. I think your story about the dorm guy illustrates the difference in generations, S. Our kids have such rampant self-esteem (I'm sure I've quoted the little charmer who told me on the first day of school that she had "good self-a-steam") that they would never suspect that their writing might not make sense. We have a lot to answer for as parents and teachers, it seems to me. I tried to make Strunk & White their Bible along with a very dated but very good book called --- uh oh. I can't remember the title; I'll find and report later.
Jenn, I don't know, but I remember 4-day weeks that started on Tuesday lasting longer than most 5-day weeks. Whereas, when Friday was the day off, the time really did seem shorter.
Becky, I'm at Potsdam with HST and crew. I was not sure before I started whether I'd try to read the whole thing before my program, but I certainly will. I have his letters to Bess too, and I downloaded Harry Truman's Excellent Adventure to my Kindle this morning. September is going to be Truman Month!

I've just looked up Strunk and White - never heard of that book before. I don't know what the UK equivalent might be. Maybe Fowler's Modern English (but that was first published in the 1920s, I think) or Eric Partridge's Usage and Abusage.

I'm not familiar with Strunk and White either, Peggy. Is it Elements of Style?

Strunk & White is the Elements of Style, Nancy. Genny, I'm not sure that there is a ready English equivalent; it's kind of the Bible of usage, so Fowler's would come closer, but it really isn't much used contemporaneously, is it??

Fowler is the sort of thing people mention when discussing the decline in standards on punctuation or other grammatical rules etc, but I don't know of many people actually use it as a reference tool any more, or what they might use instead that is more modern. I don't have any such tome that I refer to myself - as I'm sure is clear from my frequent lapses of style and grammar!

Good point about my incoherent dormmate -- at least it occurred to him that his writing might be incoherent, which gives reason for hope.

My Bible of expository writing was and is Joseph M. Williams's "Style : Ten Lessons in Clarity and Grace," which I think fleshes out Strunk/White quite practically. And yes, "Strunk/White" is Elements of Style. A richer and briefer gospel for (American) English composition you'll not find.

I agree -- I have a beautiful edition of Fowler's and it's the sort of book I like to sit and browse, whereas I might use Elements if I really want to know something. My main ref. though is the Chicago Manual.......love-hate rellie with that tome!

I'll have to look for "Style: Ten Lessons...etc." is that an essay or a stand-alone book???? I guess I'll go poke around!

>181 swynn:: Oops, should have added a touchstone:

Style : Ten Lessons In Clarity and Grace is a book, and an eminently practical one. It's ten lessons in composition, arranged in order of importance. Back when I was writing papers, I'd do a first draft, then re-read chapter one of Williams and apply it to a second draft; then read chapter two, and apply it to a third, and so on. Not a very economical approach, and I rarely got beyond the third or fourth lesson when revising, but the improvement was dramatic.

Many thanks for visitors! DH and I cut our teeth on Fowler, which shows you how old the book is. (I didn't check; it may be more ancient than we are. Oh. Genny says it was available to our parents!) I was not familiar with the Williams, S., and I appreciate the new knowledge. The first review at LT says that he was the first to remark on the weakening effect of "nouning" verbs. (That's my word not the erudite reviewer's.) As a reader of student papers, I'd say that we have the noun effect down pat and have gone on to "verbing" anything. I'm thinking of a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon where Calvin starts verbing. He says, "Verbing weirds language."
I found my book, which sounds like a high school version of *10 Lessons*. It's The Lively Art of Writing, and while a number of the exercises were tedious, they certainly improved student writing. (I didn't find the book until after the "Kim" boy had graduated.) Lucile Vaughan Payne wrote it in the 50's or maybe 60's, and her student examples were various essays on drag racing. I liked the fact that is was old because it allowed the kids to focus on the writing itself rather than the content.
I will add that the only thing the 4X4 block does for kids is give them 90 minutes of class time. It's possible to do 20 or 30 minutes of something as tedious as duplicating sentence patterns and then to change to something fun. I did love teaching the AP Language class because I got them for a whole year and could see some changes by the end. (For those of you not familiar with 4X4, students complete a subject in a semester because of the long class periods. Of course, the contact time is some 30 fewer hours than in a normal year-long course, and they miss a semester of homework - always assuming that they would do homework - but it's easier to schedule.)

I'll second (or third or whatever) what's been said here about the Williams Style: Ten Lessons in Clarity and Grace--it really is excellent. And of course the Strunk and (E.B.) White in The Elements of Style--"Omit needless words," probably the best advice a writer could get. I once saw that quotation written this way and got a good laugh: "Omit needless words.

I would never have assigned the Williams book for any of my writing classes, not only because 99% of my students wouldn't have read it, but also because they generally didn't have the background assumed to make use of the book. However, I would take things from it and use them in my classes. I particularly like Lesson 10, "The Ethics of Prose." The one on my shelf is the 7th edition; I don't know what the current edition is now.

I don't know where either of these quotations come from, but they've stuck in my mind forever:

"A good writer works hard so that the reader doesn't have to."

"I'm sorry this letter is so long; I didn't have time to write a shorter one."

Thanks for reminding me about the Williams!

>183 swynn: Your chapter by chapter reference sounds like a great way to keep the lessons fresh and reinforce the learning. I may borrow it for my work, which would improve from a structured review like that. Thanks.

Thank you, Becky, for the thumbs up for Williams and for the quotations. It is now firmly on my DESIRED list.
Sounds like a plan, Judy.

They do 4by4 at my niece's school in Cambridge (formerly Cambridge Latin, now something else amalgamated) and she LOVES it -- says that she feels more motivated to concentrate knowing if it's only one semester -- if it's something tedious she knows it isn't 'forever' if it's something fun she wants to get all she can out of it. Here they do A and B days, alternating weeks (so one week you have whatever three times, the other two) which helps because no more than two or three subjects have homework due each day. Math is every day this year in some new attempt to boost the school's standings (already high in the state, but they have to keep showing improvement as part of their accreditation process -- what does the #1 school do then?), but the homework is correspondingly lighter as they do some of it in class. OK I'm being boring, but I'm trying to figure out how this year is going to work for my LD..... forgive me!

I still have, and refer to, my very battered 1970's paperback edition of Elements of Style. By the way, I recently learned that this White is the same one who wrote Charlotte's Web and Stuart Little

On the subject of Elements of Style—or any other treatise on American punctuation—I found an interesting explanation of my pet complaint with American usage: the placement of all periods and commas with respect to quotation marks (i.e., the fact that, contrary to what I understand to be European practice, they are placed inside regardless of the logic of the sentence).

The change from the British system seems to be the result of the printing trade. As typeset printing grew in the United States, printers found that a period or comma that was placed outside of quotation marks at the end of a sentence tended to get knocked out of position in the forme, so the printers placed them inside the quotation marks.

Does anyone know if this is true or merely urban myth?

I rebel occasionally and refuse to follow this "convention". ;-D

I can tolerate the British format in British-published writing, but please don't throw the British formatting at me in American writing. The terminal puctuation for the sentence being placed outside the quotation marks, which is British style, drives me batty. It's messy, to my eye, and it's one of my crotchets. I simply can't stand it.

I fought this construct in my writing classes for a decade, and it's one of the punctuation style elements for which I received the most push-back: the period or comma goes inside the quotation marks; the colon or semicolon goes outside the quotation marks. Question marks and exclamation points go inside quotation marks unless they apply to the sentence as a whole. That's American style. Why it's different from the British system, I don't know, and that's an interesting question. But please, do follow the "convention." You know, "when in Rome"? --Heh.

DH persists in putting the final period outside of the quotation marks. I recently realized that this seems to come from the peculiar (to an English major) stylistic marks used by programmers.

I can see how a programmer's reflexes would create that problem.

On an aligned note, Strunk&White has come in for a lot of criticism lately, and there are many other guides that take them to task while attempting to do better. I would refer you to them if I could remember the titles, but I'm sure I've seen the discussions somewhere on these threads.

My pet peeves are more usage than punctuation (although apostrophe rules will be on my tombstone). For instance, the press (and everyone else, it seems) has taken to using 'decimate' to mean 'greatly harm', when the source of the word is SO CLEAR that I want to jump up every time and ask "only a 10th?" Sigh.

190, 191: final period outside of the quotation marks ... peculiar (to an English major) stylistic marks used by programmers
If a period is part of the quote, then it goes inside, and my concession to convention is that I don't put another period outside the quote to end the sentence (though it's tempting, and I sometimes rearrange the sentence to allow both periods). Otherwise, when I can get away with it, I put the period outside the quote. Yeah, maybe it's a programmer thing. Logic and consistency trump appearance and convention.

>191 labwriter:: "when in Rome" hardly seems to apply on the Web (which is British in origin *smile*).

I understand that it's messy to your eye and to those of other English majors, editors, writers, etc. So, I follow the American style when I'm writing something for publication or dissemination since conventionality seems appropriate in those cases.

However, the American style is equally messy to my eye when the punctuation has nothing to do with the quote and and carries less semantic content than the British style where placement has meaning. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm a programmer by background or learned English while living in Europe or natural orneriness—the latter being far the most likely. So, I refuse to adhere to it categorically in all situations.

I guess reading my posts will drive you batty.

>193 qebo:: Logic and consistency trump appearance and convention.

Indeed...although I'm not even sold on the "appearance" thing. A sentence such as

To save your changes press "Enter."

just looks wrong.

Admittedly a programmer trait...guilty as charged.

And I have made up my own rule, I think, that when only the last word or phrase is in quotation marks, the period should go outside since it is ending the whole sentence. If the quotation marks are for the whole sentence, I put it inside as I was taught. I don't think I've been doing that very long --- in fact, I believe I do it here only.
Tad, I don't know about the period and the forme, but that's interesting speculation. I know that weird English spelling is down to printers.
Lucy, kids may like the 4X4 (teachers of lab subjects adore it!), but the fact remains that they are losing contact hours. N.C. will be lengthening the school year beginning next year (they're granting waivers for this one right and left), so that will make up a bit of the time. A very lot depends on what a teacher decides to do with the time too!
Yep, Janet, he's that E.B.
Judy, I've seen criticisms of *EofS* too, but I haven't seen anything that seeks to replace it. Whatever encourages concise (Yes! I really do mean that. This is the only place that I rabbit on and on), clear writing gets my vote.
Qebo, do your thing!

195: just looks wrong
That's because you confuse appearance with meaning. Think of it spatially. :-)

Well, not to be TOO picky, but the example in #195 is a little misleading, as it's not really dialogue. I think most of the punctuation issues with quotation assume that the context is dialogue. What would you do with the following:

"Do I then press 'Enter'?", she asked.

or

She asked, "When do I press 'Enter'?"

Or just ignore it - it's the end of the day and I really should get out of here!

>198 ffortsa:: Judy, I don't think it's misleading because it's type of thing where English teachers will insist that the period go inside when logic says it goes outside, since their rule is "inside almost without exception." It's exactly the bone of contention.

Interestingly, Wikipedia (I was looking for rules on your example) had the following sentence:

Many American style guides explicitly permit periods and commas outside the quotation marks when the presence of the punctuation mark inside the quotation marks will lead to ambiguity, such as when describing keyboard input

On your examples, the way you wrote them makes the most sense to me but they don't follow the rules labwriter quotes strictly. There may be conditional rules when more than one level of quotation is present—however, a couple of examples I found in various places seem to argue it should be "Do I then press 'Enter?'" Ouch!

ETA: I found an amusing description of the story about why periods and commas go inside the quotes (the same explanation of damage in printing as above). It ended with, "Retaining this usage in America after movable metal type was abandoned makes no sense but, then, even the British have moved to metric at this point." *smile*

Ouch indeed.

I would not use Wikipedia as a reliable source for anything.

Oh I am enjoying this discussion!

I am too, but I confess to being ready to run screaming from the building. "EEEEEeeeek!"

Fascinating discussion. I have lived in England for many years, and did notice that punctuation/parentheses sometimes seemed one way, sometimes the other, but never bothered to think whether it was country related - I just thought there was more than one acceptable system! This also explains why my husband always argues with me when I say the punctuation goes inside. Although I am usually a stickler for punctuation, grammar and spelling, because I think they are necessary to aid clear communication, I have to say this isn't one where I'm prepared to go to the wall. But at least now I know it could help me guess the nationality of an unknown writer!

>201 BLBera:: No one claimed it was reliable. It was merely an interesting note (as I said). And, Wikipedia is often of use since, if the entries are done properly, they cite their sources of information...which often are much more reliable.

>202 sibylline: & 203: It is interesting but, ultimately, not a debate that can be resolved since it boils down to opinion about the importance of this particular convention and the importance of the American way of doing things in an increasingly international medium.

I think the best opinion I found on the subject was the following...one which I shall now adopt as my own:

I follow whichever rule is demanded of me by an editor when writing for general publication.

Absent that, my usage varies. I follow the British rule when clarity and accuracy of quoting is important. This is most true when I write a legal brief. I follow the American rule when aesthetics are of primary importance. While I believe this is largely a matter of what readers have grown up seeing, the fact remains that the majority of readers have become accustomed to the American rule.

I refuse to put punctuation inside quotes that surround a single word to convey irony.

If none of the above seem to have any bearing, I follow the British rule because I believe that anything which helps convey meaning more accurately is a good thing and the minor aesthetic damage is insignificant.

One final humorous note before I leave this topic—Judy, you mentioned apostrophe rules.

I found the following from Patricia T. O'Conner (author of Woe is I) on this subject:

...For example, the title of the poem, "The Raven"—you would have to put the apostrophe outside: "The Raven"'s first stanza is the best. Pretty awful-looking, isn't it? It's so awful that many publications cheat to avoid it. ... My advice is to avoid this problem entirely and write something else.

I've done the avoidance dance many times!

LOL, Tad. It does look awful, although it's certainly according to the rule.

I'm very torn by the style used with acronyms, too. Even well-edited (or at least well-styled) writing uses apostrophes to indicate the plural of acronyms. Just what is needed to befuddle already befuddled minds.

Oh well.

You were on my mind for business reasons this morning - I just signed up for the ERWin virtual conference. I might even get the time to attend a few of the sessions.

I learned that the avoidance dance is good editing. Even if it adds a word, it's good.
>206 TadAD: Thanks, Tad, for a good, workable summary of acceptable choices.
>208 ffortsa: *gulp* How else are we to form the plural of an acronym, Judy? I'm not diligent enough to look it up, so I hope you'll come back and tell me.

>209 LizzieD:: I always formed plurals simply by adding a lower-case ess. E.g., "The POWs in Viet Nam..." I see people using the apostrophe-ess construction but it never seemed right to me.

I'm with Tad on this. As long as the acronym is in upper case, the lower-case s should be sufficient without the apostrophe. I think people use the apostrophe because either they don't understand plurals or the typography is easier to notice. I don't like it, as it muddies up the rules.

210,211: Ditto.

I think I've mentioned before my theory that it was the increasing use of apostrophes to indicate plurals of acronyms that has helped contribute to the general confusion over the proper usage of apostrophes. I agree myself that it is sufficient to use a lower case 's' after the upper case letters of an acronym to indicate a plural, but I think many people (even at a time when more people were confident in the rules of grammar and punctuation) were not sure how to treat acronyms and started using apostrophes. This was not too much of a problem when acronyms were not so common, but now they are so much more prevalent than before - at least that is my impression, with all the new ones arising from technology like TV, CD, DVD, PC etc - the apostrophe has been spreading from that practice into wider, confused usage for the forming of plurals.

Caught up - and *running screaming from the building*

#210, 211, 212, 213 Aargh, yes! Seeing CD's/DVD's used as plurals drives me absolutely potty.

ETA: I should probably specify that the pottyness is more in a work context where we have lots of acronyms and I am forever removing apostrophes when I review papers. Or adding apostrophes and trying to explain that 'companies' does not mean the same thing as company's. I think this particular part of my brain gets turned off slightly when I'm reading internet posts (just knowing I get paranoid about my grammar after these discussions and I don't want to make anyone else feel paranoid).

Now that I look at it, oh sapient Tad, Judy, qebo, Genny, and Heather, I think that I don't use apostrophes either. I guess I could check back through my posts and find out. Instead I'm on Jenn's heels headed for the exit.

Avoidance is my motto, whenever possible. If it looks like you're going to write yourself into a grammatical corner, reverse course pronto.

On a related note, saw someone last week wearing a T-shirt that sported the following logo: "Save the Oxford comma!" I would have enjoyed it more had it read, "Save the Oxford comma, and other valuable punctuation marks." ;-)

#217 If it looks like you're going to write yourself into a grammatical corner, reverse course pronto.

EXACTLY.

217: On a related note, saw someone last week wearing a T-shirt that sported the following logo: "Save the Oxford comma!"
And there's a Facebook page with the T-shirt: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Save-the-Oxford-Comma/213021132068397?sk=wall. It's a reaction to this: http://www.mediabistro.com/galleycat/oxford-comma-dropped-by-university-of-oxfor....

Thanks, qebo! I'm vastly relieved at the disclaimer in the clarification at the end of the article! I'd like a tee please! I will write carefully, edit strictly, and punctuate passionately!

I'm scarpering out of here with Jenn! But I do love it!

Just a note - my June selection finally arrived today, Fasting for Ramadan. I'm happy to have it at last, only I have no time set for the next couple of months to read it. I guess I'll read it anyway.

Vampire Weekend has a song about the Oxford comma too - not sure if they are for or against...

You may check it out if you wish. *Potty Mouth alert* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_i1xk07o4g

Well this isn't a proper grammar question but how many of you use two spaces after your end punctuation? Well I guess you can see that I do. But apparently this is improper and has been for some time. According to this article practically everyone has been doing this improperly for over 50 years. Now it will not be possible for me to change at this stage of the game but I just wonder how many of you use two spaces between sentences and how many use one (the apparent proper way)?

That's funny, Bonnie. I'm a two-spacer, and I'll always be a two-spacer. I think the one-space looks tacky. So there!!--And I mean it!

ETA You know what? I think something automatically goes to one-space when you enter. Look at it. I typed my normal two in the sentences above, and I can't tell the difference when I use only one as I'm doing now. I never noticed!

I was fortunate to acquire a book called The Mac is Not a Typewriter early on, probably mid-90s, that really spelled out the orthographic differences between a typewriter print and the proportional fonts used by computers which eliminate the need for the double space after a period or colon--and have taught my graduate students to use single space ever since.

OMG Peggy I never noticed that. Let me see if it does it again.

Well there you go. It does.

>224 brenzi:: It's not just LT. It's HTML. You can force HTML to render mutliple spaces using the " " command, but why bother?

Personally, I'm a two-spacer, but a lot of my writing is coded in LaTeX, which also renders spacing however it pleases. So how much does it matter?

224: I learned to type on a typewriter in the early 1970s. 2 spaces after end punctuation. Not supposed to do this in a word processor because it magically produces the proper spacing (hah!), but the habit is ingrained. A single space would require thinking, which would slow me down and result in inconsistencies.

Ahem. That's because the computer was "programmed" to take care of these little things for us. Resulting in world wide violence toward computers. Not at my house, of course.

I confess to being a two-spacer as well.

All these single spaces look cramped to me. I much prefer the double-space between sentences - much more graceful.

TWO-SPACERS UNITE!! Roni, I'm pleased that you got ahead of the curve, but I'm with qebo. I learned to type on an old, manual, office Royal, and I resent being programmed AND I think that Judy has it right. Something else to mark me as old.

Wow, I've never heard of the TWO SPACE thing.....then again I never learned how to type and I dont understand computers very well either!

When I was taught to type, I was taught the two-space rule. But working in journalism, using two spaces between sentences apparently buggers up the layout, so I unlearned it. I'm sure that if I ever used a typewriter again, I'd revert to two spaces -- which I agree looks nicer -- but it's kind of irrelevant in electronic layouts (as you have discovered...) Honestly, I don't care much one way or another, as long as it's clear. Much more important is whether what is written is coherent.

Yes, I think the two-space thing definitely identifies those of us who were taught to type on old manual/electric typewriters. There were some other habits which were more quickly unlearned from those days, like the need to press the carriage return at the end of a line - but when I was temping as a secretary for a while in the earlier days of word processing, I had colleagues who were ignoring the automatic line-wrap and still pressing return, which was a pain for anyone having to edit their documents!

Another woman of a certain age here. I learned touch-typing in the mid-70s, definitely the two-space era. And I've never unlearned it. But this is the first I've realized that LT -- or rather, HTML -- undoes it for me!

>235 gennyt:: I had colleagues who were ignoring the automatic line-wrap
*shudder* oh yes, I remember those people. They are the same ones who still use spaces to indent rather than that little "indent" icon.

Uh-oh. Guilty as charged on the indent thing. I never learned to make the default what I want. (Note to self:do it.)

I learned touch typing in the late 80's. My typing teacher was terrifying. If one was caught looking at the keys of the typewriter, abject humiliation resulted immediately. Typewriters became obsolete while I was in college. My freshman year there was still a typing lab, by my sophomore year, word processing lab, by my senior year, computer lab. I can remember very clearly where I was - listening to NPR - when the world wide web became a reality for all of us. Now, here we are talking about everything under the sun to people all over and being single spaced in spite of ourselves. I wonder if it's a bit how my grandfather felt as he went from horses to the Toyota pickup truck during his life.

I learned touch typing on a manual typewriter when I took personal typing the summer of my freshman year in high school--probably the best course I ever took. Not because of the teacher and definitely not because of my typing skills at that time (they were terrible) but because I learned the keyboard layout at an automatic level, and 10-finger typing. That was 1964. Electric typewriters were a real step up when they became available.

Btw, if you use a computer font that is NOT proportional, such as Courier, the two-space convention is still applicable.

Anecdote
My mother taught me touch typing rudiments when I was 8 to keep me out of her hair for the summer. I pounded away at that old (probably pre-WWII model; this was about 1953) Royal and wrote at least one book. I wish I still had a copy. It was called Baker's Dozen about a family with 13 daughters named for my dolls at the time. I particularly remember the introductory chapter: "In a few months Lindy came along..."
Seems like I may have told this one before. Oh well.

New to me! I love it!

Getting caught up on all the education talk, and thought I would share a positive story from my first week back at work.

My grade twelve university prep English class (equivalent to US seniors) is starting the semester with a unit on rhetoric and personal, non-literary essays. I gave them Swift's A Modest Proposal to read for homework on Wednesday. They had to come prepared to discuss it the next day. On Thursday, they walked into class, and we put all the desks into a circle. We sat and discussed this nearly 300-year old essay for an entire 76 minute period, and ever single one of my 36 students (a BIG class) had read it for homework, and even made notes on it (without me asking them to). They were insightful, they had done research the night before to be prepared for the discussion, and they took notes as we went along, jotting down explanations of satire and life in Ireland in the 1700s. At the end of the class I told them we would be doing this type of discussion class every Thursday, and they were thrilled. No one skipped class, everyone was prepared, and they all contributed to class. They cared. That night, tired as I was, I was excited to go to work the next day. Sometimes teaching is extremely difficult, and sometimes I feel defeated - but sometimes kids care, and that's when I know that what we do is important, and worth all the headaches.

235: when I was temping as a secretary for a while in the earlier days of word processing, I had colleagues who were ignoring the automatic line-wrap and still pressing return
236: They are the same ones who still use spaces to indent rather than that little "indent" icon.
Oh, bringing back memories of temp clerical work in the early 1990s...

#238 here we are talking about everything under the sun to people all over and being single spaced in spite of ourselves. - It is amazing, isn't it!

#242 That's good to hear! I hope your class continues to respond so positively.

#242 - Awesome! Sounds like a dream class.

Peggy, I love the story-story. I have a few that I wrote years ago. I had read Anne of Green Gables or Little Women and thought I could write a book too.

>242 Cait86:: Oh Cait, that is an inspiring story. Glad to know that young people still care about literature.

I've enjoyed all of the grammar issues talked about here. I have tried to be conscientious about not making my plurals possessive lately. I am a two-spacer after sentences and personally think a long paragraph looks less jumbled that way. I noticed a long time ago that HTML bundles things together, but I persist in typing the way I was taught. Old school for sure!

Cait, I'm absolutely thrilled for you and your class! I would never have dared to assign Swift to a high school group (Kudos to you for your courage and to your education system for getting them ready), but I do dimly recall that level of involvement in class. I don't know though, that I ever made an assignment that every single kid in class carried out. In the long-gone years they did love the Great Books approach to discussion, and so did I! On the other hand, my cousin teaches in the Raleigh area, and his kids do what he tells them every single night. Of course, Chip is 6'4" and in great shape, so they may be scared of him. (When he was teaching in Wilmington, he asked for and got the lowest level of physical science students. He'd go in the first day, cross his arms like Mr. Clean {a commercial character}, scowl, say, "I'm your worst nightmare come true," and then grin like a fiend. After the first semester they realized that they had to do what he told them because he had a deal with the principal to get the same kids back if they failed his course.)
Jenn and Lucy, I confess that my "book" was 3 or 4 single-spaced pages; it felt like a book to me.
Hi, Genny, qebo, and Donna!! Donna, as somebody else said, it would take far too much time to consciously one-space at this point in my life.

Oh, what a conversation!

I'm a two-spacer, too. I first learned typing on a manual typewriter in high school, and gained speed on an IBM Selectric in college typing classes. I learned (and internalized) the rule of two spaces after ending punctuation. BTW, though we are largely computerized, we still use a manual typewriter at work for some jobs.

As far as apostrophes go, one of the most annoying signs I ever saw was for a local business. The sign read "Smiths Computer's." (The name has been changed to protect the guilty.)

248 Oh that would have given me dyspepsia! Or is it apoplexy? or .......

#248 - I might have gone to get a Sharpie to fix that. I might have.

I learned to type in summer school the summer between junior high and high school, which I guess was 1966. Good grief--I had forgotten about the two-space thing after the period on a typewriter. So now I feel like I'm growing into the category of someone who can say, "I've forgot more than you'll ever know about...." Haha. I can remember the "clunk, clunk" of hitting the space bar after a sentence. I wish I had an IMB Selectric. It would be fun to type on one again--although I learned to type on a manual. For those of you who have never typed on a manual typewriter, you simply MUST find one and try it sometime. I guarantee that your typing speed will decrease by AT LEAST 50% and probably more!

I'm another one who learned to type on a manual typewriter. And I use two spaces after a period, always. Roni's post about the Mac not being a typewriter is very interesting. Peggy, I must say, you host the most interesting and eclectic discussions!

The sign read "Smiths Computer's." I have seen too many signs in this vein to consider them unusual any more. And maybe we all learned to type on the typewriter but my 29 year old daughter, who originally brought this subject to my attention, says that when she learned keyboarding in high school in the late 90s she learned the twp space rule and types this way to this day. maybe the teacher was someone of our generation.

Wow, Cait, that's fab!!

Ummm -- would you let me audit your class???

Hi Peggy, I'm back on LT just in time to say I love that "Chesapeake VI" picture in the entry post :-)

Terri, Jenn, Lucy, Becky, Nancy, Bonnie, Suzanne, and Nathalie, HI! I love this place...you are all such fun and so smart!! (I love that picture too, Nathalie, and now I should think about finding something different.)
One more note (!) about those old typewriters.... I once tried to teach a woman to play the piano who had been a typist. She absolutely could not achieve legato. She could walk her fingers across the piano lid, but when she felt keys under her, all she could do was pound. We eventually gave it up. The only other thing as frustrating that I tried to do with an adult was to teach a woman to read who could never grasp the concept of letter as symbol for sound. No matter how many analogies I tried, how often we looked at S as "snake" and hissed, I would still point to her name, and she would say, "Ess-rah." I gave up on that one too.
I guess that's a lesson in the need for a professional!

Loving this thread. Another two-spacer here and I also learned to type at school on an electric typewriter in 1989 I think it was. I never realised that this is where I got the rule from but I still do it to this day.

That's funny Peggy, my typing teacher used to give me a hard time for being a pianist. She didn't like the way I struck the typewriter keys.

Hi, Leonie and Jenn. I'm glad that the piano teacher got to you first. Pianos play the same now as then...
I'm saying a goodbye to Chesapeake and moving on to Thread 7

>240 LizzieD:, 247 Even if it is only 3-4 pages, you should put your book on LT an get it a touchstone!