sjmccreary reads in 2011, pt 4

The first day of the 4th quarter calls for a new thread. Hoping this thread will see a strong finish to a mediocre year. Link back to thread #3: http://www.librarything.com/topic/119720

Hi Sandy! I hope you have some good reads to wrap up 2011!

Book #73



Thrillers: 100 Must-Reads by David Morrell and Hank Wagner

This book is exactly what the title indicates - a list of 100 books and stories that the editors claim represent the best the thriller genre has to offer through-out history. Each entry includes a short bio of the author, a synopsis of the book and an essay by one of the book's editors, or a popular thriller author, about why that particular book and author deserve to be included in the top 100 list. Beginning with Theseus and the Minotaur, and including Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, and Beowulf, the chronological list ends on an unfortunate weak note with The DaVinci Code. (Weak because that book is so controversial, not because it isn't a rousing good read.)

I'd already read of few of the books listed (e.g., Dr Jeckyll and Mr Hyde, The Scarlet Pimpernell, and The Charm School), and had a few more wishlisted (e.g., The Woman in White, Jaws and Absolute Power) before picking this up about a year ago. I got about halfway through it and added quite a few more books to my wishlist before I had to return it to the library and then promptly forgot about it. Until some of the books I'd added to the wishlist as a result began percolating up and showing up in my current reading this year (e.g., The Third Man, King Solomon's Mines, Strangers on a Train and Kim, which will be coming up later). So I got it back and finished it, adding many more books to my staggering wishlist.

I'm not enough of a critic to analyze the merits of the selections included here. I'd heard of a fair number of them, but most were new to me, especially those from the first half of the 20th century. Amazingly, I'd heard of nearly all the 19th century entries, but very few of the pre-1960's titles. What I found most fascinating, though, was seeing the progression of "thriller" novels throughout the decades. The books from the 19th century are totally different from those in the 1930's, which are just as different from those in the 1970's. And yet, they all seem to fit the description of "thriller" and most of them sound like books I would like to read. That is why I ended up with probably about 75 new additions to my wishlist. 3-1/2 stars.

Sandy, here's hoping the 4th quarter is the best reading time of 2011 for you.

Progress report:



Finished up Exodus and moving on to Leviticus. The commandments have been handed down, the laws have been explained over and over. The tabernacle has been ordered and constructed. Everything is in place. Now it is time for the Israelites to travel to the promised land. "So the cloud of the Lord was over the tabernacle by day, and fire was in the cloud by night, in the sight of all in the house of Israel during all their travels." (Ex 40:38)

This is a turning point. No longer is God providing a paradise for Adam, or rescuing Noah from the flood, or promising the stars to Abraham, or setting Joseph up in business in Egypt. All those stories were planning for some glorious future. Which begins now. Now is when there are specific rules to follow. Now is when the people begin the long dusty trip to a new place. And now is when I leave the easy Sunday school stories behind and begin my own long dusty trip through the difficult and obscure books of the Old Testament. If all goes according to schedule, I'll come out on the other side early next summer - ready for the New Testament.

Amy & Linda - thanks for the good wishes - as you know the year started off badly, so I'm anxious to finish positively. My speed isn't what it once was, but I'll settle for quality and pleasure until it comes back.

wait a minute... on this book Thrillers: 100 Must-Reads you rate it only 3½ stars but you added 75 out of the 100 to your wishlist? Did I get that right?

Obviously, this is an extremely dangerous book for mystery/thriller lovers.
Oh no..no...not me.

**backs away with her fingers crossed and heads for the garlic**

#7 3-1/2 stars because the book was actually slow reading and tedious - that's why I was only able to finish half of it before it had to be returned last year, and it's taken an entire check-out period plus a renewal to finish the second half. The real benefit - and what made me stick with it - were the tons of new book suggestions.

this is an extremely dangerous book for mystery/thriller lovers - oh, yes, it is!

I hope your own long dusty trip through the difficult and obscure books of the Old Testament is not as arduous and protracted as the Israelites' wandering in Sinai, though I fear some bits of Levit. & Deut. may make it feel so!

Hi, Sandy! I've got you starred again.

I just finished Kings and started Chronicles. OMG.

And (unpronounceable name) was king for 37 years and didn't follow the rules. He had sons (unpronounceable name #1), (unpronounceable name #2) and (unpronounceable name #3). (Unpronounceable name #1) became king and ruled for 18 years and didn't follow the rules. He had sons...

Arrrrrgh!

#9 Judging from Morphidae's comment, it doesn't sound like it gets any easier after Deuteronomy. The Psalms should be nice, though.

#10 Hi, Terri!

#11 LOL!

The Psalms should be nice, though.

Definitely! :)

Sandy, I'm sure your long dusty trip through the Old Testament will have longer reaching results and rewards than my long dusty trip through Kansas and Nebraska as the cattle drive in Lonesome Dove makes its treacherous way to Montana. I think mine will be the faster read, however. ;-)

>11 Morphidae:: Lol!

Yes, those Psalms are beautifully written and uplifting. The model I used for my Bible reading had me reading the Psalms on Wednesdays and the other Poetry books on Thursdays: Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon. That made my readings of the Law and History on Mondays and Tuesdays more bearable. Continued good luck to you. Drink lots of water through the desert. ;-)

Book #74



Catch-22 by Joseph Heller

I don't know where to begin when thinking about this book. Funny, satirical, scathing, touching - it is all over the place. I'd long heard of the book and even understood what the phrase "catch-22" means. But I was astonished at the depth and complexity of the book. I've been working on it for 2 weeks, and it's never been far from my thoughts, and I don't expect it to be a book that fades quickly. Rather than an anti-war, or anti-military, message, what I saw in the book a treatise on the futility of life, and yet there is also the realization that life is precious and wondrous and worth the effort to live it to the fullest, regardless of the situation. Very highly recommended. 5 stars.

Hi, Donna & Terri. Surprisingly, I've never read much of Psalms before, so that will definitely be something to look forward to. Right now, I'm slogging through Leviticus and all the gory details of the required sacrifices for different offenses. Always blood being scattered or smeared or something. Rough going.

I was glad to see that you really liked Lonesome Dove, Donna. I read that one many years ago and have never forgotten it.

Book #75



A Countess Below Stairs by Eva Ibbotson

A very nice recommendation from Judy (DeltaQueen50) about a young Russian countess whose family fled after the 1918 revolution and settled in England. Having lost everything, several members of the family go "into service" in order to support the others. Including Anna, who joins the staff of the Earl of Westerholme. Rupert, the Earl, has recently returned home after serving in WWI. His father and older brother have both died and Rupert is the reluctant heir to the title and the estate, which is nearly destitute. He sends instructions for the house to be put right in order to receive his fiancee, a wealthy woman who will provide the means to keep the estate running. Trouble is, she is a devotee to the "science" of eugenics and soon has the household, and the entire neighborhood, in an uproar as she begins to make staffing changes to ensure that only the best specimens will be represented. Meanwhile, Anna and Rupert discover a mutual attraction.

About half way through, I realized that my library has identified this book as "young adult" which explained the chasteness of the romance. The eugenics angle was also a little bit watered down, but the effects of it were still effectively presented. Very good. 4 stars.

Glad you enjoyed A Countess Below Stairs. I found it a nice, light, feel-good read.

Book #76



In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan

I was a little familiar with this even before beginning. Last year I read his Food Rules, which is essentially a summarization of THIS book. I enjoyed that one quite a bit and also enjoyed this one which explained many of the details that he discovered in his research which led to the "Rules".

In short, while modern science has accomplished many wonderful things, it has not made our food any better. On the contrary, by reverting to "nutritionalism" - the breaking down of food into its nutritional components - the food scientists have stripped away critical elements from our diets. And we are paying the price in terms of a whole host of chronic diseases that result from the so-called "Western Diet". He provides evidence that by returning to a diet of whole foods, grown or raised on organically enriched soils, we would be healthier. He further claims that "well-balanced" is less important than "whole" or "natural" when it comes to choosing foods.

I especially enjoyed a review of the "Rules" - summarized as "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."

I gave the book 4-1/2 stars, not so much because it is so well researched or well written, but because it provides me with simple concrete ways to take control over my own health and well-being. Plus it was a timely reminder that good food takes time to prepare and consume - just when I was beginning to get lazy in the kitchen again.

Book #77

Malice Aforethought by Francis Iles

A delicious mystery about a doctor who announces in the book's opening line that he planned to kill his wife. Set in an English village in the 1920's (the book was published in 1931), Dr Edmund Bickleigh is a hen-pecked philandering husband. When he discovers the woman who is his true love, he asks he wife for a divorce. When she refuses, he decides to kill her so that he will be free to marry his beloved. He plans very carefully, so as to avoid any chance of detection. After all, he is not a murderer, but a clever man of science.

Told mostly in a first person voice, we are able to see the progression of Dr Bickleigh's feelings towards his wife, his intended, and the police investigating the death. The trial scene is perfect, with Dr Bickleigh convincing himself that he really is innocent. Recommended. 4-1/2 stars.

Both the Pollan book and the Iles mystery sound terrific. I will have to add them to my list. (I haven't added many lately.)

Thanks, Sandy

I really enjoyed In Defense of Food and his other one, The Omnivore's Dilemma. Years ago he wrote a great article in the New York Times magazine in which he followed a calf from birth to slaughter. We stopped eating most beef for a while afterwards and I remember even ringing a farmer to find out if the cows on his farm were grass fed! (They were, but I bet he got sick of nutty New Yorkers ringing him...)

I haven't been finishing much lately, but I have been reading. I started 3 big books at about the same time I began my Bible-in-a-year project. I almost wish one of them would turn out to be a dud so that I could move on to something else, but I am thoroughly enjoying each one of them.

Reading the Old Testament by Lawrence Boadt - recommended by Joyce - is easy reading, but best taken in small bits. I'm about page 145 of 550. This is actually my lowest priority since I ended up purchasing the book and it doesn't have a due-back date.

Independent People by Halldor Laxness is a wonderful story set in early 20th century Iceland about a small crofter who wants nothing more than to be an independent man, beholden to no one. The writing is beautiful and easily read, but it is not the un-put-down-able kind of story that would enable me to breeze through it in a week. I own this book, too, so there is no hurry to get it finished, but I am anxious to learn what will happen to the guy. I'm about page 170 of 480

India: a History by John Keay is a library book and so is my highest priority. Very dense and slow going, it chronicles the history of India from c. 3500 BC up to the present (2000 AD). I'm enjoying it very much but have an easier time if I read out loud, which limits when and where I can work on it. Page 170 of 535. I'm counting on the fact that this book is not in high demand so that when I exhaust my renewals on this copy, I can get another copy and start over on checkout and renewal periods.

I could use a couple of too-sick-to-go-to-work days so that I could stay home and read!

#21 Linda, I'm surprised that you didn't already have Malice Aforethought of your radar. It seemed just like something you would enjoy.

#22 I've seen Omnivore's Dilemma but haven't read it. Maybe in another year. Glad to hear it is also good.

Some great books there by the sound of it, both finished and in progress... I like the sound of In defence of food and Malice Aforethought. And I've got Independent People on my wishlist but don't yet have a copy.

I lurk here a lot, but seldom post. Just wanted to say that I enjoyed your review of Malice Aforethought, but am not finding it on the review page. Have you posted it?

I've had Malice Aforethought sitting on my TBR pile for ages, your review makes me want to push it closer to the top!

Looks like you've been doing some good reading!

I thought Malice Aforethought sounded interested so I checked my library catalog...no luck. So I thought I'd see if B&N had it - a paperback for $1.99 used and then my eyes bulged - a used hardback for $131.98.

Gee I can't decide..;-))

#25 I hope you're able to find Independent People. My unusually well-stocked library doesn't have it. I happened to pick it up on a whim at the Border's going-out-of-business sale. Very glad I did.

#26 I didn't post a review of Malice Aforethought because there are already so many and they mostly say all the same things.

#27 Yeah, you do that to me all the time.

#28 Good, but slow!

#29 Well, the hardback will probably last longer... ;-)

#29 Interesting. On Amazon, the cheapest used hc is $1.83. The cheapest used pb is $28.21.

I need to check with my library.

#31 Very strange. Check with the library. Also check addall.com - they will provide a comparision of book prices from several sources and then you order direct from the one you choose. I usually end up ordering from abebooks.

ETA - AbeBooks has a used paperback for $1 plus $2.95 shipping. Sounds like there are several options for

A library near the office has it. I can request through regional ILL or drive over and get it myself. My friend (who's taking online courses for a career change) lives right near that one so I can arrange something.

My goodness. One of my co-workers is cussing up a storm today. Very uncharacteristic.

Glad to hear you've located a copy. Do you go calm your co-worker down, or is this a person to be left alone?

Wow, I lost you when you started your new thread. I'm glad to find you again. Catching up.

Not only is there no copy of Malice Aforethought in our county library system -- I searched the state ILL system, and only one library has it! And their copy is out (and overdue).

I came close to giving up on my library system, too. It had several Malice Aforethoughts, but none listed by the author Sandy noted. But when I dug deeper, the Malice Aforethought by Anthony Berkeley notes, further into its record, "by Francis Iles". So, I've got mine requested!

37 Oh, thank you! It's one of those . . .

I just had the same issue come up when looking for I'll be Watching You by Charles de Lint for the Halloween reading thread. He used a pen name "Samuel Key" and the book was listed under that in the ILL system. Then when I ordered it, the library who received the request was looking for Samuel Key, but they had shelved the book under de Lint, and originally refused my request because they "had the title, but by a different author." It took an e-mail to straighten out the confusion.

ETA to add Ok, found it! Apparently there's even another name involved, according to these library records, "A.B. Cox." Huh? But it does list Francis Iles as author -- though the primary listing is the Anthony Berkeley name. Still not a lot of libraries with it -- none that are in-county -- but there are some in the state system.

In my 100 greatest mysteries reference book, another Francis Iles is listed. Before the Fact is the top 100 book, though the Malice Aforethought is also mentioned.

His other pseudonym is Anthony Berkeley. I've read at least one. The Poisoned Chocolates Case was excellent.

This'll be a perfect book for my classic mysteries category for 12 in 12.

Sandy,
Sounds like you've got all the library systems hard at work looking for this book. =)

We have only one copy of Malice aforethought here in Maine, but I note that Alibris.com has many pprbk copies for sale under $2.00...

#40 I often wonder whether anyone ever notices an increased demand for an obscure title when this group discovers a hidden gem.

I'm glad that everyone seems to be locating this book. I suffered some of the same confusion when I went to request the movie adaptation from NetFlix - same title, "based on the novel by Anthony Berkeley" - I hadn't realized yet that Francis Iles was a pen name.

Book #78



Involuntary Witness by Gianrico Carofiglio

Thanks to Joyce for this recommendation. Written by an Italian attorney (and/or judge?), this book tells the story of defense attorney Guido Guerrieri who takes the case of an African native who earns a living peddling counterfeit designer handbags to tourists on the beach. This man, a school teacher from Senegal, is accused of kidnapping a 9-year old boy and killing him. There is only circumstantial evidence against him, but no proof of his innocence, either.

However, a hopeless legal case is the least of Guido's worries. His wife has left him and he is having trouble dealing with that loss. He drinks too much and doesn't pay enough attention to his clients.

Coincidentally, Richard (richardderus) read the book the same time I did and posted an excellent review. He liked it a little better than I did, but I will definitely be continuing the series. 3-1/2 stars.

I forgot to include this neat book-lover quote from Involuntary Witness:

"...she took me by the hand and led me into the bedroom/study/living room. There was a bed against the wall opposite the door, a desk, books everywhere. Books on shelves, stacks of books on the floor, books on the desk, books scattered here and there. There was an old radio-tape recorder, an ashtray containing two squashed filters, a few empty beer bottles and a nearly empty bottle of J&B whisky.

"The books ought to have reassured me.

"When I enter a house for the first time I check on whether there are books, if they are few, if they are many, if they are too neatly arranged - which is a bad sign - or if they are all over the pace - which is a good sign, and so on.

"The books in Melissa's tiny home should have given me a good impression. But they didn't." (pg 60)

That was one quality of Guido which I didn't mention - in addition to drinking too much and ignoring his clients, he reads a lot. Pulling old books off the shelves, looking for just the right one to fit his mood.

Well Sandy, you've done it again. I am definitely adding Involuntary Witness to my wishlist.

Love the book quote!

I would add Involuntary Witness to the wishlist, but it's already there -- I think it was Joyce who got me with that book bullet, too. Glad to get another confirmation that it's worth reading.

I also love the book quote, Sandy!

Well...I'm trying to find one of Carofiglio's books so I can have a new series to start off the New Year - figure by then, I might have some of the current series caught up, and be ready for a new one. Everyone seems to have a very favorable perception of them, so I'm thinking I'll have to give at least one of them a try.

Book #79



The Iron Rose by Peter Temple

I enjoyed this Australian novel about a former police officer turned blacksmith who becomes suspicious when his friend and neighbor is found hanged to death in his garage. Although the official ruling is suicide, Mac Faraday knows in his heart that the man would never. Very fast paced, he often writes in sentence fragments. Snappy dialog. Fast action. Only the important bits. Even the sex scene is little more than hip bones, long hair and heavy breathing. In separate sentences. It would become tedious if overdone, but he only uses it in the heart-pounding scenes. Like when someone is trying to kill him.

There are lots of twists and turns, lots of interrelationships that might be easier to keep track of in a print copy, but then I would have missed the wonderful Australian-accented reader of the audio version. Either way, I loved the book and am looking forward to the next in the series. 4 stars.

Book #80



Track of the Cat by Nevada Barr

First in the Anna Pigeon national parks series that I've been wanting to read for years, this one is set in the Guadalupe Mountains in West Texas. I loved everything about it except the story. The setting, the characters, the entire premise have me looking forward to more of the series. But this story seemed awkward and forced somehow. I'd heard that this first book wasn't as good as the later installments, so I am not letting that bother me. 3-1/2 stars.

Progress report



"The Lord bless you and keep you;
the Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace." (Nu 6:24-26)

Finished Leviticus and Numbers and moving on to Deuteronomy. Slow-going in places, very repetitive when listing required rituals and sacrifices. And yet, glimpses of God as a stern but loving parent shine through. Like an earthly parent, He loves His children and wants to give them good things, but cannot tolerate misbehavior and disobedience. At the end of Numbers, Israel is on the banks of the Jordan, ready to cross over into Canaan to claim the promised land. Still squabbling and complaining. A very good story. They should make a movie...

#46-48 Glad I get to add to someone else's list for a change. I don't know why I am always surprised when I see a book-lover comment in a book - after all, presumably most authors are also book lovers - but it still pleases me.

#49 I've read a scattering of Nevada Barr mysteries, in no particular order. I should sit down and systematically read this series, starting with this first one.

My copy of Malice Aforethought arrived the other day. I'm eager to start on that one.

I'm going to be reading Malice Aforethought this month as well.

I agree with your description of the first Nevada Barr, not the best mystery, but the setting and the idea of all the opportunities to visit the National Parks, even in print, is inspiring me to continue with this series as well.

Track of the Cat was the first Nevada Barr I tried, as well. But I didn't have the patience to plow through it. Instead abandoned and returned to the library, and have not, so far, tried another. There are just so many other books out there that appeal more to me. And THAT list gets exponentially larger, the longer I've been on LT!

Sandy,

I thought you were going to save Track of the Cat for 2012! I agree that it is not the best of the series, but the settings, characters and the mysteries only improve IMO as the series progresses. I think that having the full background of Anna from the first few books is essential for the enjoyment of the entire series - just seeing her personal journeys as well as the descriptions of her physical travels makes the series worthwhile to me.

Linda & Judy - I'm anxious to find out what you think of Malice Aforethought. It always makes me a little nervous when someone reads a book on my recommendation - what if they don't like it?

Cindy - I know exactly what you mean about so many books with more appeal - I've become much more choosy since being on LT. The Nevada Barr series is one I've wanted to read a long time, and I knew that Track of the Cat was not the best, but it is the first so that is where I felt I had to start. If the series doesn't improve then I won't hesitate to drop it and move on to something else. But the consensus seems to be that it gets better, so I'm hopeful.

Cheli, since you gave me 2 choices, I picked one for 2012 and took the other for right now! It was timely since I needed an audio book for a car trip, and it was only available on cassette (or in print, but I don't read print books while driving). I'm car shopping and will be giving up my cassette player when I get a new car. So any audio I'm interested in that is only on cassette automatically moves to the top of the list.

I started with one of her later ones and really enjoyed it. I read Track of the Cat much later. I do need to go back and catch up with some. I love her National Park system settings. I will agree that some of the books are much better than others. The setting makes up for it with me, because I've just always enjoyed visiting the National Parks. Her first one set at Isle Royale made me want to go visit that park, but I've not made it that far north yet!

Sandy, many of the new cars have an MP3 interface that also works to plug in your basic old walkman for cassettes, so don't give up yet!

#57 I love the national parks, too, and can't wait to get to some of the books set in places I've visited in RL
#58 I hadn't thought of that - most audios I get are on CD's so mostly it won't be an issue. But there are a few of the older books that aren't on CD - I guess I was resigned to reading those books in print. I wonder if I still have a walkman...

okay, where did I last see my walkman.....

An Iron Rose looks interesting, Sandy. Nice review!

Hi Sandy, I hope you are having a great Thanksgiving. I just finished reading Malice Aforethought and I really, really liked it. So glad you brought it to my attention a while ago.

Sandy, thinking of you during these holidays and sending my love. Hope you and yours had a good Thanksgiving yesterday.

I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving yesterday. Our family has been dreading it this year, as it marks the anniversary of the last time we saw Bill before he died. He was home for the whole weekend, so we were able to spend 4 days with him, which was nice. The very last thing we all did together as a family was to decorate the Christmas tree on Sunday afternoon. This year, the big traditional dinner will be Sunday so we planned to do the tree on Thursday instead.

Which means yesterday was kind of hard. We had no big dinner planned, no activities, nothing except the tree. (In hindsight, that was probably a mistake - we should have made specific plans to do something.) We all just hung around, doing busy-work and making idle conversation. Without anyone mentioning anything, we kept putting off decorating the Christmas tree until it was pretty late in the day. Finally I told them "let's get this over with" and we opened the boxes of ornaments.

Every year I buy a new ornament for each of the kids, and every year our tradition has been to have the kids hang their ornaments on the tree, in order from their first Christmas to the current one - when I give them the new ornament. We were able to laugh and joke through the first one - it's usually a pretty fun time as we all remember the silly things each of the kids used to do - but the other two got increasingly sober. Finally all that was left were Bill's ornaments. No one said anything or even moved. I asked who wanted to put his up - nothing. I told everyone "we don't have to do this, we can leave them in the box". But they didn't want to do that either. So I got the first one out and asked my husband if he wanted to hang it - no way. Mark, the one who was closest to Bill (they lived together in Springfield), was already crying so hard he couldn't even answer me, so Michelle and Jeff - the youngest two - took turns hanging their brother's ornaments. In silence. I didn't buy an ornament for Bill this year. Instead, the last one on the tree for him was one that the funeral home sent - a crystal disk etched with his name and dates, "in loving memory".

After that one went up, we all just sat in our chairs and cried and cried. No one moved or said a word for the longest time. Finally, Mark got up and went to the basement and brought back a bottle of beer for everyone. The last year of his life, Bill had started home brewing as a hobby. In fact, even though he and Mark both had Wednesday afternoon off before Thanksgiving last year, it was late in the evening when they got home because they spent the afternoon doing something with the latest batch of beer. My brother also home brews and he took that unfinished batch and bottled it. That was the beer that Mark got for us - Bill's beer. So we drank a toast and cried some more, but began talking too.

The rest of the evening was easier - more normal. Sunday we'll have dinner with the extended family. I expect that it might also be hard, as it will remind all of them of the last time Bill was home. Especially my parents. Mark is going to take more of the beer so that everyone can share a toast.

So, while I am sadder this Thanksgiving than I have ever been, I am still thankful that I have my husband and children, and my parents, and my brothers and my husband's brothers, and their families. I'm not the only one feeling this pain. And I am thankful that I have friends, both RL and LT friends, that I can share my sorrow with and not add to the burden of the pain of the family. The LT community has been one of the biggest blessings I've had this year. Thank you all very much.

Oh Sandy, my heart goes out to you and your family. I am so thankful that you still have each other and that you are such a wonderful virtual friend to share this emotional time with us. You are all in our hearts, and our prayers. We thank you and hope that your Sunday will help bring some solace to all of you.

Sandy, I've been thinking a lot about you and your family this weekend and you all remain in my prayers, for this weekend and through the first anniversary.

Sandy, Thanks for writing about your Thanksgiving day. So sad, but also uplifting, revealing the strength in your family. You will be in my thoughts this weekend.
Looking forward to seeing you Tuesday. . .
brenda

Sandy, the holidays are hard to bear when someone is missing. I hope you get through the family dinner on Sunday with the same spirit that's been holding you up this past year. I for one am honored to share your pain. And I'm looking forward to giving you a big hug on Tuesday.

I was almost in tears myself, Sandy, reading of your family's struggle with the Christmas tree decorating. But I'm glad you managed to get through it together with the support of each other. Keeping you in my prayers.

I agree with Genny. My eyes were beginning to leak as I read your story.

Sandy, my heart just breaks for you and your family. I am so moved by your spirit and your strength. Thank you for sharing your Thanksgiving experience with us. You all will continue to be in my prayers. Looking forward to seeing you on Tuesday -- and adding my big hug, too.

I thought of you often these past few days and in my heart I know that your wonderful son would not want you to look on the holidays with sadness, but with the joy of the season. I'm sure he's watching and want you to be happy.

I've been thinking of you and your family a lot, Sandy. Having such a wonderful family must be so helpful to you (and them as well). I admire how you are all there for each other when you need it.

Sandy - I've been thinking about you too. I hope that you and your family are able to find strength and comfort throughout the holiday season.

Thank you all for your wonderful, comforting words and thoughts. We spent the day today at Mom & Dad's, and it was very pleasant - not a single tear. However, our thoughts are weighing heavy as we approach the anniversary of the accident. Joplin is the day after tomorrow - last year it was 9 days after that that the accident occurred. I'm sure that each passing year will be a little easier, but this year has been the first of everything without Bill. I can't express how much I appreciate everyone here being so gracious about me indulging my grief and sorrow. Usually, I'm much more reserved than this.

I wish every one of you could be in Joplin this week so I could give you a big hug and thank you face to face. You guys are the best.

Oh, Sandy. I'm so sad that this is happening and so glad that you have such a wonderful family. To echo your own quote back to you:

"The Lord bless you and keep you;
the Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace." (Nu 6:24-26)

#76 :-) Thanks

Hugs to you, Sandy, and God bless you!

Oh Sandy, God bless. I've been thinking about you.

Catching up on books completed recently:

Book #81



The Invisible Gorilla by Christopher Chabris

Interesting pop psychology book about the ways that our minds fool us - for example, we don't really remember things as clearly as we think we do, we are not as smart as we think we are, and highly confident people are not the most competent. 3-1/2 stars.

Book #82



In Too Deep by Jayne Ann Krentz

I don't really understand why I make such a point of reading this series. It is a paranormal romantic suspense. I don't do paranormal anything ordinarily - it's pretty hard for the good guys not to prevail when they have paranormal powers, and how interesting is that, really?. Except that the bad guys are also paranormal, and have the ability to destroy life as we know it unless they are stopped. I guess what keeps me coming back to this series (The Arcane Society) is the author's continuing creativity in thinking up new paranormal abilities for her characters. The romance couldn't be more obviously scripted. As an entertaining fluff read I give it 3-1/2 stars. (Note: as good as the guy on the cover looks, there was not a single scene where the hero took his shirt off outside the bedroom, much less out in front of the "haunted" house.)

Book #83



The Help by Kathryn Stockett

I think between the book and the movie, everyone here is probably familiar with this story. In fact, I feel like I might the last one to have actually read this book. If anyone here hasn't read it yet, then you should. Loved it. 5 stars. Now I can watch the movie.

Book #84



Infamous by Suzanne Brockmann

Before joining LT, Suzanne Brockmann's books were among my favorites. I knew in my heart that they were not "good", but they were fun. I joined LT hoping to improve the quality of my reading and the fact that I can now barely tolerate Suzanne Brockmann's writing is testimony to support that I have been successful in that. This is another romantic suspense. And, unusual for Brockmann, there is a ghost. Terrific. There is no need to carefully construct any kind of suspense and resolution when there is a ghost on hand who can just magically pop in and out anywhere, see and hear anything, and even be seen and heard by the right people. Sounds like an excuse for a writer to be lazy. Plus, the book was too long for the story. Couldn't wait for it to end. 2 stars.

Book #85



Slow Gardening by Felder Rushing

A pretty book to look at, but I'm struggling to pin down the point of it. I think what he was saying is that we should do our own work, not relying on hired help or landscape services, but that we should only do what brings us pleasure and satisfaction. There is no reason to do unnecessary work, but if you enjoy intensive gardening (raising tea roses or doing bonsai, for example) then absolutely do it. The whole thing seemed slightly contradictory to me. But it's worth 3 stars just for the photos and the paragraphs that say what I want to hear.

Hi Sandy. Nice roundup of books. I think I'll check out The Invisible Gorilla. I've been working on genealogy lately, and I bet that book would be of interest. I often wonder if my great "eureka" moments about people in my family are just flat-out wrong. Although it's all a work in progress, and I try to remind myself not to get wedded to any particular point of view.

I haven't read The Help, so you're not quite the last one to read it--ha. I've been meaning to get to it, though. Maybe in 2012.

Have a great Tuesday.

Hey, Becky. You've picked the only 2 books I'd recommend reading. It's been a rough time lately - reading-wise I mean. I am looking forward to the new year and a fresh start on so many levels!

We're beginning our Tuesday with the very first snow of the season - just a dusting. How is it over there?

I haven't read The Help either but it's first on my list for 2012. I have a book group and it's our January read.

Enjoy the snow. I'm baking cookies today.

Snow here, too, Sandy. Just enough to make the streets slick. I'm glad I pushed myself to get all my errands done yesterday so I can hibernate today.

Your comment on The Invisible Gorilla was brilliant. I loved that cover, too. I think The Help is one of the few books and movie that lived up to the hype about it.

#84 Cheli, I am actually shocked to learn that you haven't read The Help. And I'm surprised that there is a book club that hasn't already read it. I hope you will enjoy it.

Cookies. Yum.

#85 Donna, I was on the fence for a long time about The Help, but it was your review of it that put me over the edge. Thank you.

I'll be calling a client in a few minutes that I need to make an appointment with. Keeping my fingers crossed that she names a day later in the week so that I don't have to get out today.

>83 sjmccreary:. We're beginning our Tuesday with the very first snow of the season - just a dusting. How is it over there?

Haha. Literally, two minutes ago, DH & I were arguing about what it's doing outside.

He: "Oh, we have a dusting of snow outside."

Me: "I wouldn't call that a 'dusting,' and I sure wouldn't call it snow."

He: {I don't know what he replied because I wasn't listening. Heh--that's why we get along.}

Actually, I wouldn't call it even a dusting just yet, although it's cold and it's looked like snow here for a couple of days. He was very lucky to get in his weekend of fishing.

Well, the sun came out and has melted everything that isn't in the shade. It was the strangest thing when, all of a sudden, the snow melt began draining off the roof. One second it was quiet, the next there was water pouring through the downspouts. Like someone emptied a big bucket of water on the roof.

Bright and sunny, but very cold again today. Winter's here! :-)

Book #86



The Tender Land by Kathleen Finneran

This is the current book for the Missouri Readers group. A St Louis family lost a 15-year old son to suicide in the early1980's. Kathleen, an older sister, is writing here about their family both before Sean's death and afterwards. I thought the subtitle, "A Family Love Story", was misleading. This books is definitely from Kathleen's point of view. She writes about the relationships within the family, but always through her own lens. Donna828 and Tloeffler have both written excellent reviews of this book, and you should read them.

I've been struggling to put my own reactions into words. On one hand, it is a familiar story since we have also lost a son prematurely, and I was interested in Kathleen's descriptions of how her parents and siblings have adjusted over the years to the loss of Sean. Her descriptions of her parent's quiet and unwavering religious faith following Sean's death feels similar to what my husband and I have experienced so far. Likewise, the siblings' quiet rejection of that same comforting faith.

On the other hand, the severe depression that has plagued generations of the Finneran family, and which presumably contributed to Sean's suicide, is something very foreign. Kathleen's description of her mother looking in on each of her children while they slept, trying to discern which of them would be the one to suffer "the sadness", was touching. It turned out that Kathleen was "the one", and the comment I think I will always remember from this book came from a session with her psychiatrist. She is talking about her own suicidal feelings, experienced at the same age that Sean had been when he died. The doctor is explaining that in a family where depression is prevalent, the thought of suicide isn't shocking. He goes on to tell her, "You'd probably be surprised to know that some people go through life without having a single suicidal thought." Her reaction: "He was right. I found it hard to believe." (pg 247)

Perhaps I have just become sensitive to deaths of teenagers and young adults as a result of our own loss. But it seems that teenage suicide has become more and more common. I attended 2 funerals this year of girls who were daughters of families we know - both suicides. I have heard of several more suicides in our community this year of young people that my kids knew of from school. I don't understand. One of my daughter's best friends is a survivor of attempted suicide, although they were not close when that happened. You would never guess it by being around her. When Kathleen spends much of the last part of the book talking about her own depression and suicidal thoughts, I was hoping that she would be able to shed some light on what "clicks" inside a person to cause them to try such a thing. But she doesn't.

As in life, I guess, there is no neat conclusion which wraps everything up at the end of the book. It is not a morose, depressing book. It is touching, poignant, and even funny at times. It is a wonderful story of an afflicted family that is close and loving, despite having suffered a tragic loss. Recommended. 4-1/2 stars.

Abandoned



Jesus: A Biography From a Believer by Paul Johnson

Couldn't get rid of this one fast enough! I guess I've never read a biography of Jesus, but this isn't at all what I expected. I thought it would be a recounting of the life of the man, based on research by scientists, historians, and theologians. Maybe Paul Johnson falls into one of those groups - I don't know. He begins with the Christmas story and birth of Jesus, then moves on the the story of the 12-year old Jesus who became separated from His family in Jerusalem, causing them to lose 3 days while they searched for Him. So far, so good. Of course, this is the last incident of His life recorded in the New Testament until He began His public ministry 18 years later. But that did not stop Johnson from speculating about what Jesus was doing all that time. Specifically, He was home-schooled, He worked as a farmer, He worked as a shepherd, He did a lot of things. He did not take over the carpentry shop after Joseph died. Instead, Mary went to live with relatives, whose children would have been Jesus' brethren (or brothers). Now, that last bit I was willing to let pass, since I realize that there is much difference of opinion about whether Mary remained virgin her entire life. (I am more comfortable with the scenario that Mary and Joseph lived together as husband and wife after Jesus' birth, and had children together - Jesus' brothers.) But those other "details" are just too random to be accepted at face value without more evidence than he presented here.

The narrative went on for a little longer until it came to the 40-days in the wilderness and the temptation. Jesus was tempted with food, with His life, and finally with the kingdoms of the world. "Get thee behind me, Satan" is the response we learned in Sunday School. But what Johnson claims - if I understood him correctly - was that by rejecting Satan's offer of the kingdoms of the world, Jesus was rejecting the development of human knowledge and understanding of the secrets of nature. By cultivating such knowledge, mankind is attempting to become God-like and thus succumbing to Satan's temptation. Well, this is a theological argument that I have never heard before and it was not explained very well. I certainly didn't like it on the surface. But at that point, I decided that this book was no simple biography - it was much more a doctrinal treatise. And definitely not what I wanted.

And it IMMEDIATELY went back to the library - without a second thought!

Boo Hiss! Hate books like that.

Sandy....that's a shame about the Jesus book. I've always found Paul Johnson to be a credible historian and enjoyed his A History of the American People and his short but well-written mini-bio of Churchill's war years. Perhaps he should stick to geo-political history and avoid religion (or at least not try to label it as such.)

Tina, I'd never heard of Paul Johnson before. But reading the reviews of the book you name, several of the comments mention his conservatism, Christianity, and right-leaning politics. And re-reading the comments on THIS book, it still sounds like something I'd be interested to read. Not sure what went wrong here.

But I'm not giving up on a Jesus biography. I just requested a copy of Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict XVI. Hopefully, that one will be more to my liking.

Well.....If it's conservatism, and right-leaning politics you're after, BXVI is your guy. As for Jesus stories, if you're not wedded to having it be literal scripture, I found Ann Rice's series (not finished unfortunately) Christ the Lord : Out of Egypt and The Road to Cana gave me interesting perspectives= especially on that huge gap in the Bible between Christ in the Temple at age 12, and then showing up at the wedding at age 30. Obviously, every writer will have a different idea and will have to take fictional liberties to imagine the scenes. I found hers to be much better than I expected. Just wished she'd been able to finish the series before she once again abandoned Christianity and went back to whereever she is now.

I'm not after conservatism and right-leaning politics. I don't read political books very often and don't want politics setting the tone for other non-fiction books. (Conservatives and liberals in fiction are fine, if they're well done.) You've made me a little nervous now about what I'll get with Benedict. I'd heard about the Ann Rice books but never gave them any serious consideration. I didn't realize that she was a transient Christian, which makes me even less inclined. I think what I want is a grown-up version of the Sunday School stories we had as children, when we learned all about Jesus in the first place. You can be sure I'll let everyone know just what I think of the Pope's book. ;-)

Ick to Johnson's book! I can't fathom how anyone can take Jesus' rejection of temptation in the wilderness as having anything to do with rejecting the pursuit of scientific knowledge. God gave us our brains; I think we are expected to use them!

Sandy, I'm very interested in what you think of the Pope's book on Jesus when you get to it. I've read several "biographies" of Jesus:

Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography by John D. Crossan. I read this for a church book group in CO in the 90s. It was way over my head back then as a newish practicing Christian. I have a few notes from our book group -- "Fasting John/ feasting Jesus" (I like this one) and "symbolic retrojection" (what the heck does that mean?).

The more recent book I read has a short review here on LT - Jesus: Uncovering the Life, Teachings, and Relevance of a Religious Revolutionary. Let me know if you want to borrow them as it would give us a chance to meet up in Harrisonville on my next trip north.

#96 I completely agree. We are in the process of trying to find a new church. (Have been for years - long, boring story.) So, the other day, I stopped by the Episcopal church and talked to the priest (is that the correct title?). He gave me several booklets to take home and read. I found this statement in one of them, "Believing that the assured results of true scholarship can never run counter to true religion, the Episcopal Church welcomes every honest endeavor of science and learning." THIS is a statement that I can easily accept.

#97 Thanks for the offer, Donna. Both those books look interesting. I"ll let you know how it goes with Benedict's book, and what I want to do after that.

98 That's a statement I could easily accept, too, Sandy.

Today I started Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict XVI. I'm much happier already than I was with the other book by Paul Johnson. This book will require much more concentration, I think. But is more scholarly, and more thoughtfully based on research and proven, or at least widely accepted, historical facts. It is also much longer. Although, I've been having second thoughts about the Johnson book - wondering what he really meant by that bit I read about the temptation in the desert, and whether the rest of the the book was going to be as upsetting to me as the first part was. I don't really think I'll give it another try - there are just too many books to worry about one that didn't grab me right away - but I wonder if I shouldn't have stuck with it just a little longer.

One thing I really appreciate about Benedict's book is his assertion that, in examining the historical Jesus - or any historical topic, it is important to try to understand what the historical record was saying at the time it was made. Not what it says today. What was the meaning and significance of it when it was current? Only then is it really possible to TRY to ascertain how that translates into some modern meaning. I'm still in chapter one, where he is discussing the ways in which Jesus was the fulfillment of OT prophecies. Not just the messianic prophecies, but also the promise of a new Moses - someone who has been in the presence of God, who knows God.

I am definitely looking forward to more of this book.

Not one you probably want to try, but John P. Meier has written a dense 4-volume work on A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus. It took me a couple of years to read the first three volumes, and the fourth volume is out now--fascinating work, lots of info on what we do and don't know from the historical record and the methods of teasing it out.

One of my favorite theological authors is Karen Armstrong, a defected Catholic nun who is now a self-described monotheist. Armstrong's writings are heavy with footnotes but she distinguishes herself by being arguably the most objective scholar writing today because she doesn't write from a single denominational or theological stance. In addition to John Dominic Crossan, I like Marcus Borg for his metaphorical interpretations. There is a lot of very interesting and well written stuff out there.

Roni and Mike - thanks for the recommendations - all the books and authors you named look interesting. After I finish Benedict's book, and maybe the sequel that focuses on Holy Week, I'll see how I feel. I don't know yet whether this will whet my appetite for more theological reading, or quench it.

Book #87



Devious by Lisa Jackson

This is #7 in a series I've been reading - mostly out of habit now - since it began. It focuses on 2 New Orleans police detectives. Their cases always seem to involve a combination of old Catholic institutions (churches, convents, schools, orphanages) in their crumbling/abandoned buildings and a bit of paranormal abilities in either one of the witnesses or the intended target victim. And a serial killer - that is constant. And a romance. As it seems with many series after a half dozen books, this one is running out of steam. I was especially disgusted that she actually recycled her very best villain - from the first book - into this book as a secondary story arc. Which was not resolved. I hate cliff hangers. And so, I expect that book #8 might be about him. Again. Bleh. 2-1/2 stars. I may be finished with this series, even if the author isn't.

Just a note to add that I have most of Karen Armstrong's books as well--she is definitely more readable than Meier; he is much more technical. And I always recommend to everybody to go look at this video of her TED speech to get an excellent taste of her approach.

http://www.ted.com/talks/karen_armstrong_makes_her_ted_prize_wish_the_charter_fo...

Excellent example of Armstrong's philosophy, thank you!

>98 sjmccreary:. Sandy, I've been an Episcopalian all of my life, and I honestly can't picture myself in any other denomination. I love the prayer book--I love it. I love the liturgy. I love the music. That said, all of this is done very differently depending on what church you attend. I also have to say that while Katharine Jefferts Schori is the Presiding Bishop, I will not give my time or money to the church. But there's plenty of ways to give time and money, so that's not a big problem. In the grand scheme of things, Schori is small potatoes.

Anyway...I hope you find a church you love.

#105,106 Thanks for the link - I will definitely seek out some of her works.

#107 Thanks, Becky. I understand your feeling of never wanting to change denominations. I sometimes catch myself professing to be Presbyterian - my lifelong affiliation - until I realize that it has been nearly 20 years since I last belonged to a Presbyterian congregation. After our last move, we settled in a Methodist church - my husband's childhood church. Which was OK, compromises have to be made sometimes after all. Our problem has become the overwhelming trend to contemporary worship. Nearly every church in our community has moved in this direction. I understand WHY churches are doing this, but I still don't like it. We are struggling to find a traditional worship in a church with a doctrine that we are comfortable with. This Episcopal church looks promising, and I think we will be visiting there for Sunday service sometime soon.

Depending on the parish, you are likely to find the move towards contemporary worship in the Episcopal Church as well. I attend a traditional service; my parish also has a contemporary service that was originally pushed as a "family-friendly" service, which I think means that if your kids can't behave during an hour-long service, then that's OK (no, that's my snarky comment--I guess it means more contemporary music, etc., and why that's family friendly I have no idea). What I've witnessed in this otherwise liberal-minded church (yes, politics abounds--look up "U.N. Millenium Goals") is that the contemporary service was much ballyhooed at the beginning and is now dwindling in the numbers who attend.

The upshot is, most parishes offer a choice.

I think there is a struggle to capture younger persons with contemporary services. None of the "adults" I know like them, they just tolerate them for a while and then move on. For many, a worship service is a time of contemplation and communication with the God of your choice...sort of an "adult time-out" if you will. There is nothing that will drive me away faster than a bunch of guitar-strumming adolescents strumming umpteen 7-11 songs (seven verses sung eleven times). I'm too old to consider church as entertainment. I hope you can find a place where traditional services are respected.

#109 Many churches here offer a choice as well, although it it typically the off-peak services which are traditional. The Episcopal church I visited has no contemporary services. But on the down side it is a very small congregation. I don't mind contemporary music. I don't care for the so-called "praise" music, though, which is what we get too much of here. Very simple melodies, sung in unison. My dad calls them 7-11 songs - 7 words repeated 11 times. The priest I spoke with complained that the theology contained in these "hymns" is very watered down, not enough to really sustain a soul on a steady diet of them. They remind me of the church camp songs we learned as kids. But no one has convinced me yet that sitting around a campfire is the same as sitting in church. Interestingly, my grandma loves that worship style. As do a lot of people, which is why it is so popular. I feel like a dinosaur.

I hadn't really thought about modern vs contemporary so this is an interesting discussion.

Our Catholic church has 4 masses every Sat night/Sun morn and, even though they all have the same readings and songs, the guitar mass and the choir mass have a more modern feel. The early (7:30 am) one has a more traditional feel to it.

I do like the friendliness of the two more modern-feeling services (for 11:30 am, they ask you to introduce yourself to your neighbors) but, overall, I'm a more traditional sort (though, back in my college days, I loved the more contemporary feeling services).

#110 Oh, Mike, don't get me started! :-) Entertainment, indeed! Our church went so far as to add "drama" to the regular services. Skits. In church. Every Sunday. The sermon was shortened to accomodate them. Very lightweight stuff. That was the last straw for me. What I've heard people complaining about are services that are too "churchy" - they have bad memories of their grandma's church and want something different. I loved my Grandma's church (the same one I grew up in - different Grandma than in #111 above) and want another one exactly like it. Impossible to find, I fear.

#112 Linda, I'd wondered about the Catholics - whether this was the issue for you that it is in the Protestant denominations. The Catholic weddings and funerals I've attended have all been rather traditional, but I didn't know whether that was the case in regular Sunday masses. I don't mind a nice classical guitar in place of the piano or organ sometimes - having nice music in worship doesn't have to be expensive. And, of course, we've had choirs in church all along so that is OK, too.

What an interesting discussion! I have been working with our teen choir at church. They have absolutely no interest in traditional music. They have trouble hearing parts because the music to which they listen lacks harmonization. We have what is called a "blended" service at our church, but it doesn't go to the extremes in contemporary and stays more in the hymns, Gospel songs, and "meatier" praise and worship songs. (There are some of the praise/worship songs which do have more than 7 words repeated 11 times.) Our choir did do one song in our Living Christmas Tree that ended with the repetition of "For your name is Holy, Holy Lord" a whole bunch of times, but at least the rest of the song did have some meat on it. My niece attends a contemporary church and enjoys it, but she talks about things they do that I just can't quite wrap my mind around doing while in a church service. (They apparently have a cafe/restaurant and can take food and drink into the auditorium while worshipping.) I've actually had the discussion with our worship pastor about what folks like us are going to do when we are older and the youth we have today are in charge of the service. I don't think a contemporary service will ever appeal to me. I pray that I will be able to find a church that I agree with from both a worship and theological perspective or that the Lord will come back before I'm faced with that decision!

All of ours are relatively traditional with the guitar mass being "modern" but I definitely see a difference between parishes. My sister's parish, where my nephew made his first communion earlier this year, is ultra strict.

Not sure if you heard but, at the start of Advent, we tossed out 40+ years of liturgy (and joining the rest of the non-English speaking world) to go back to a closer translation of the Latin. We're still getting used to it (only 3 Sunday masses so far!!) and probably will for quite some time. I was just a kid when we tossed out the Latin and so the phrases I knew my entire life, just about, got tossed out. Strangely enough, the changes to the longer prayers are easy. Responding with "and with your spirit" instead of "and also with you" at various times is harder. Most of the time, it's coming out as "and also with your spirit."

Chicagoland has so many Catholics that the new mass was one of the lead stories on the news that weekend. The "teaser" was something like "do you know what consubstantial means? if you go to mass, you'd better learn."

>111 sjmccreary: Sandy, there are still quite a few of us "dinosaurs" to be found! I really miss the harmony in the church music that I grew up with. The unison choruses don't feed my soul nearly as well.

I'm at the very tail end of the Baby Boom generation. I noticed a sharp decline in interest and participation in our high school choir between my class and the class after mine. I have wondered if there is a correlation between the decline in music education in the public schools and the shift in church music styles.

I'm one of two regular pianists for my church's Sunday morning service, so I'm often the one who selects the music for the service. Our church doesn't follow a liturgical calendar, but our minister plans his sermon schedule several months in advance. We use a blended hymnal, and I spend a lot of time selecting hymns and songs with messages that enhance the sermon text. I generally avoid the repetitive praise songs that don't have a lot of substance to them. Whenever they fit the sermon theme, I try to incorporate one or two contemporary songs that have some depth of thought.

I love selecting music during the Christmas season. It seems like everyone loves to sing the traditional carols.

Sandy, I'm following your discussion re: churches and music. I hope you are considering attending one of the concerts we spoke about . . . You will hear lots of beautiful (complete with harmony) Christmas music. : )

#115, 117 You both make a good point - the kids maturing now don't have the same musical exposure that we had. I remember being surprised to hear my son speaking dismissively about the popular praise music. He was in choir in HS (our school district is very well known for its excellent music program) so he knows how to listen to complex music, and how to sing it, too. The practice of taking food and drinks into church is just silly. As though most of us aren't capable of sitting still for an hour without needing nourishment! Our church allowed drinks in the auditorium, but I forbade my family from having them. I endured plenty of whining as a result. I also tried to enforce a dress code on my kids for church, but even my husband complained so I had to abandon that. I just didn't want them wearing jeans or T-shirts - I wasn't insisting on ties or dresses.

#116 I had heard about the changes you were having to make. "And with your spirit" sounds very strange - I understand it is a closer translation to the traditional Latin, but why didn't they translate it correctly in the first place? I think that could be upsetting to have to change such ingrained responses. I still recite the Lord's Prayer using the old Presbyterian language I learned as a child, "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors". I just don't say it very loud!

This has been a fascinating discussion this afternoon. At least, I don't feel so alone anymore, so I thank you all for that. I will be away this evening and all day tomorrow, but please feel free to continue without me.

#118 Brenda - I've been thinking about it ever since you mentioned it. 2 pm at Grace & Holy Trinity on Sunday? I hope to be able to make it - and bring Jeff - but Sunday's are sometimes hard to manage.

Or Fri, the 16th at 8:00 . . . The cathedral is especially lovely after dark.

"Et cum spiritu tuo"--I am the dinosaur indeed as it is the Latin I recall. The English version that came out of Vatican 2 was meant to be more colloquial language, to be a conversation in the church rather than formal, and this new translation is definitely a victory for the formal, traditional school.

Interesting conversation!

Funny, maybe I'm a bit weird, but I can see the good in (almost) all kinds of worship styles. I love the mystical reverence of a very traditional and well done "high church" service -- Latin, even! -- but can really get into a well-done contemporary worship. A church where my husband ministered had a "contemporary" service Sunday evenings (the morning services were generally pretty traditional) and I was in the praise band. It was one of the best musical and spiritual experiences of my life until circumstances began to limit our rehearsal time and the music quality dropped.

Our current church experience is somewhere in the middle; it's relatively traditional in style, but not too formal.

I enjoy experiencing different types of worship, and love attending different churches when we go on vacation. The Bible does say, "sing unto the Lord a new song." I think sometimes we get so stuck in our worship routines that we can go through the motions without processing what it's really all about.

To me the one essential is that the Gospel is proclaimed.

Very interesting comments on harmony in music and the lack of it in much of today's pop "music."

When I went to college, we were required to take either "Intro to Art" or "Intro to Music." I opted for the latter, only because it fit my schedule better. I also held an FCC Class 3 license so I was one of the default college radio station transmitter "babysitters" who had to read the meters every hour and log them. During that process, I became enamored with classical music and jazz at the same time and had access to the vast recorded library at the radio station, and had my own radio programs for each.

While jazz is often atonal and lacks harmony and "resolution," nevertheless there is always a continual change in the mixture, tonality, instrumentation, modulation and other factors that hold your attention. I guess what I don't like about the 7-11 music is the repetition, much like a mindless chant. But then for some, I guess there is comfort in the familiar repetition. My attention span just doesn't work that way.

In recent years, colleges and universities seem to have put cultural education on the back burner, including music, art, philosophy and other forms of the classics including books and literature. They are classics for a reason - because they are good and enduring examples of human excellence. To deviate is risky and often, ultimately, counterproductive. It will be interesting to see how "permanent" the swing to contemporary worship will be in the long run.

I was a music major, so I share the concern about the shift away from study of the arts. I think it is possible to be contemporary and still have quality in music. (When I was involved in a praise band, our repertoire was not the 7-11 stuff you're talking about.) But I hate to see how few people are familiar with the great classics these days. I was stunned when my husband referred to Handel's Messiah in a Bible Study discussion, and folks didn't seem familiar with it!

A year or two ago, I read an absolutely fascinating book in which the author attended a different church (different religion) around the country every Sunday for a year. I think contemporary vs traditional came up.

Sundays in America by Suzanne Strempek Shea is the name of it.

In my lifetime, I've been to only a handful of Protestant services and a few Jewish ones and it's always interesting to me to see the different styles.

Frankly, I'm not even sure what a "praise band" is, though.

>123 tymfos: To me the one essential is that the Gospel is proclaimed.

That's where the current presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church lost me, when she said in a public interview that it's not necessary to believe in the Resurrection. Kate, you lost me there, hon. If she'd said that as a public citizen, fine, I'd love to have a conversation with her about that. But to make that remark as the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church--well, for me that was beyond the pale.

I'm seriously afraid there are a whole lot of wonderful organs gathering dust in churches everywhere. My fear is that another generation or so and there won't be anyone who knows how to play them.

I have a couple of books I would recommend for people interested in this discussion. They're becoming a bit dated now, because they were part of my reading when I was hot & heavy into this controversy about 8 or 10 years ago--but they're good, just the same.

Why Catholics Can't Sing: The Culture of Catholicism and the Triumph of Bad Taste, by Thomas Day, published in 1990. I don't have any particular heartburn about Roman Catholics and what they do, not being one. However, when I went to my father-in-law's funeral (RC) and then later (this was in about 2000) when we would attend the RC church with my MIL, I was simply aghast at the banal "music" and "songs" (hymns?) that were sung. At my FIL's funeral, I do believe I was the only one who sang along with the hymns. Weird. This book helped me to understand my response to my limited exposure to the RC Church. I would say, also, that it's not just for Roman Catholics. The issues in the book are ones that churches everywhere have been dealing with.

Reaching Out without Dumbing Down, by Marva J. Dawn. Hugely, hugely recommended. This is essentially a defense of more traditional worship.

If anyone is interested in a fabulous website that discusses the issues of the Episcopal Church (and their bent is traditional), then visit Stand Firm, a website about traditional Anglicanism in America.

And if you like to laugh and have a somewhat snarky sense of humor, I recommend this blog, midwest conservative journal. This guy is a former parishioner of my former church. He may also be the only other conservative in my town. He's hilarious but also intelligent. But if you're easily offended, then don't go there. This guy fought the good fight for years in the Episcopal Church, and then one day decided that he'd had enough. Oh, and did I say that he's the librarian at our little town library? I don't think ANYONE knows he writes this thing. Talk about hiding in plain sight--it's this guy.

Added: Oh dear, he does seem to have become a bit angrier since I used to read him regularly a couple of years ago. Well, what I always used to tell my students is that it's important to know what people are saying--read things from people that you don't necessarily agree with. He sounds a bit unhinged, but I assure you, he has good reason.

>126 lindapanzo: Linda, I was following a blog earlier this year where the author was visiting a different church in his neighborhood. He intended to do it for the entire year, but he either gave up his venture or gave up blogging about mid-year. It was very interesting to read.

#123 Terru nailed it when she said: I think sometimes we get so stuck in our worship routines that we can go through the motions without processing what it's really all about.

What a fascinating and inspiring conversation. I'm going to have to take a look at several of these literary works discussed above.

As another Catholic who's been scratching her head the last few weeks wondering why on earth we have to mess with something that didn't seem broken to many of us, I have been brought to a better understanding of the angst my parents' generation went through back in the 1960's when we did shift from Latin to English. The need to pay attention and read along the new translation has also made me realize that we have perhaps become complacent and were praying by rote.

I've attended Catholic mass all over the world in many different languages. Some services seemed almost funereal, some were breathtaking in their transcendence; some were very participatory while others seemed more like theatre where the attendees just sat there watching; some had music that was quite contemporary and indigenous and while I may not have understood the words, I certainly could feel the uplifting of those people's prayers to the almighty; other music was again much more about performance and theatre. Not matter what, music is something that becomes so ingrained that we always find comfort in songs that we learned when we were young. Think about how we still want our Christmas carols sung in "traditional" mode.

I still appreciate the "smells and bells" but I don't need them every week. They become more inspirational when they are used sparingly and thus seem "special."

I've been in choirs - both very traditional and very contemporary; I've been a cantor and I've been a choir director. For me the beauty of the catholic church (small "c") has always been the ability to maintain a pretty structured service with words we all agreed that could be the vehicle for people to worship in a venue that met their intellectual and emotional needs, while allowing a wide range of litury to meet the needs of all those people.

Sandy, I know that you will eventually find a worship community that accepts you and allows you to grow in love and peace. Merry Christmas!

And Becky #127, thanks so much for all those wonderful references...Good stuff to ponder for Advent.

#129 Tina, I need to find a book or something about the new mass. We had pastor-presented slide shows in November to explain it but I'd like to read more about it.

It is amazing how, in the same parish, the character of each mass can be so different. They rotate the pastor, assistant pastor, and two visiting priests each week among the four masses and they are not really the deciding factor as to the character.

I'm loving this conversation. I'm trying extremely hard those days to not become a lapsed Methodist. I don't like the direction our church is taking, but it's the only church I've known!

#126 Linda, this is an image of a typical praise band:



And a typical song they might do, including video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgyokeWf54k&feature=related (both of these found in the wikipedia article for "contemporary worship music", which is really pretty interesting)

And here is a list of purely personal reasons why I don't favor this in church:

1, 2. The cross or crucifix, that is normally the focal point of the front of the church, has been replaced with a video screen, which is displaying the lyrics of the song; eliminating the need for hymnals and depriving the musically literate among us the opportunity to experience the music in a way meaningful to us

3. The pulpit or lectern, normally the second-most prominent feature in church, now must be pushed aside to make room for the band's equipment

4. In fact, the entire altar arrangement of the front of church has been replaced by a performance stage. Where will communion be served from?

5. The fact that there are sound panels around the drum set indicates that they KNOW the music is too loud for the space

6. As each song comes up in the service and is performed, the band will run on and off stage - just like a rock band giving a concert. Followed by the preacher running on and off like an enthusiastic Emcee.

7. The video montage accompanying the lyrics - I don't even know what to say. Trite, dizzying, annoying - take your pick.

8. Since the video screens have been installed, money can now be saved by eliminating printed bulletins containing the order of worship and other church announcements. Everything is shown on the screen. Including communal prayers - making it impossible to pray with a bowed head. So much depends on the skill of the person running the projector. If they don't advance the slides at the proper times, no one knows what to say or do next.

For me, this is not conducive to reflective worship. It is, as Mike characterized it earlier, "entertainment". I don't have a problem with this kind of music on an occasional basis - praise definitely has its place in worship. But it is not the only attitude of worship that I need.

>133 sjmccreary:. All of this is horrifying to me--I don't think that's too strong a word. Everything you say about the screen are things that I've experienced as well. If you sing from the hymnal, then you can sing in parts. I'm an alto. How do I do that if I'm singing by simply reading the words on a screen? One of my warmest memories as a child was standing next to my dad while he held the hymnal for both of us. He would sing his part, and I would try to sing mine. We had to stand close so that we could both see the hymnal. I remember it made me feel so close to him.

This screen thing. I haven't experienced much of it, because I left the church about 5 years ago. What disturbed me was the screen became the focus of worship rather than the altar. It was just too bizarre for me; I couldn't take it.

I don't think I like this concept. I was shocked when the pastor pulled down a video screen to deliver a lecture about the new mass a few weeks ago. The cross, the altar, and the lectern are the most visible, most prominent parts of the church and were all covered up, though only for 15 minutes.

Another thought. A question about praise services like the one you describe, apropos to a book I'm currently reading: do these services seem to anyone else like an extrovert's extravaganza? What's happened to contemplative prayer or quiet, introspective time in church? Good grief.

The book I'm reading is an ER book: Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking.

I don't have a problem with this kind of music on an occasional basis - praise definitely has its place in worship. But it is not the only attitude of worship that I need.

Sandy, I can certainly agree with you on that!!

Hope you don't mind a few other thoughts:

Personally, I like the idea of different kinds of worship being available for the differing worship needs that different people experience over time. I was never in a church that offered only contemporary worship, though I know that there are many like that. I don't think I'd like a steady diet of only contemporary worship, but I think it has its place. My theology emphasizes the diversity of humanity as the mystical Body of Christ on earth today -- so diversity in ways of worship are almost a given!

The setup you describe in 133 can probably be called "typical" for contemporary worship, but is not universal. There are a number of variants that I've experienced that are (IMO) more worshipful / less distracting. I've never seen the running in and out thing. When I was in a praise band, we were somewhat off to the side (like a choir might be) and stayed put! The lectern and altar table were front and center, with the screen behind and above for the texts -- we didn't do the video montage thing. (In fact, we didn't do the contemporary service in the nave of the church where the traditional services were held, so that none of the normal worship furnishings there were disturbed at all.)

As far as traditional hymnals and harmony go, our tradition's liturgical thinkers and theologians have had a running theological dispute about whether the proper mode of singing hymns in church is unison (singing with one voice) or harmony (different voice parts reflecting the diversity of the church as Body of Christ). For example: in Bonhoeffer's writings on Christian worship, his theology favored singing in unison and criticized harmony as a form of individualism which had no place in worship. I haven't analyzed the new hymnal yet, but the last hymnal was clearly influenced by the "unison" faction -- which drove me crazy, as I love to sing in harmony and the hymn harmonizations clearly weren't conducive to that. But our theology also stresses that most of the externals of worship, other than the proper proclamation of the Gospel and administration of the Sacraments, are adiaphora -- that which is neutral, neither commanded nor forbidden in scripture. Whenever I start to get too worked up about matters of worship, I count to ten and try to remember that! :)

I'm glad for occasional opportunities to experience contemporary worship services. I don't want to be limited to only that style of music, though. Also, I'm not convinced that all small churches have enough skilled/talented vocalists, instrumentalists, and sound technicians for effective contemporary worship. I can tune out the folks behind me or across the aisle who have trouble staying on pitch. It's more difficult when they're standing in front of me with a microphone. I've also been in some services where I've suspected that the guitarists don't know how to tune their instruments, but hope that if they play them loudly enough no one will notice.

I have one eardrum that rattles, inherited from my dad, and when music exceeds a certain volume level I experience a lot of discomfort. More often than not, I spend a good bit of time during a contemporary service with my hand over my ear to stop the vibration. (I've had this happen with loud organ music, too.) Maybe I should start carrying ear plugs in my purse.

Becky - I have a memory of singing in church with my dad very similar to yours! Yes, the screen is the focus. But now there are screens everywhere we go - and people dutifully watch them, no matter where they are or what is showing. In waiting rooms, restaurants, banks (even in the drive-up). Any place where a person might be expected to sit still for more than 2 minutes. What does that say about us that we must be so continually entertained? And I like your thought about it being an extrovert's extravaganza! Quiet prayer and meditation, and listening, in church is something that is harder and harder to find. At least around here. And I miss it.

One of the churches we attended for several months offers both contemporary and traditional services - in 2 different rooms. (Terri, is this what you did, too?) In the traditional service that we attended, there was a choir, no praise band, traditional hymns, and there were hymnals in the pews. But there were also screens everywhere you looked and no paper bulletins. There are hymn books, so you can sing in harmony if you know what page to turn to, but since there is no bulletin to consult, and the song leader doesn't have to announce it because the lyrics are displayed on the video screens, that was a trick. You also can't follow along with the scripture readings in the pew bibles, because you don't know in advance what the passage will be. The text of the reading appears on the screens. Or maybe not. The prayers, the responsive readings, everything was on the screens. Even the outline of the pastor's sermon was displayed as he spoke. Just like a conference presenter. I didn't like it.

The church we still belong to (the one I'm looking for a replacement to) looks very much like the picture I posted. Except that there was a lovely wooden cross on a stone wall behind - with the band set up in front. The video screens were above their heads on either side. The lectern was on the far side of the platform, away from all the equipment that you can see in the picture. On communion Sundays, the band had to move to make room for the table, or else it was place way out in front. With the band between it and the cross. They did the running up and down thing and the audience applauded after each performance. Making it seem even more like a concert than worship. I know that a lot of congregations will applaud a soloist or other special music, but I'm talking about regular congregational singing here. The focus was very definitely on the players more than God. Again, everything in the service was on the screen. And since they quit following the traditional order of worship, there was no way of knowing whether the service was nearly over or only half finished. I felt completely passive in that setting - an observer only, not a participant.

Terri, I appreciate your comments about the diversity of worship. I understand that. I've never meant to say that contemporary worship is wrong - period - just that it isn't right for ME. And I resent being placed in a defensive position whenever I express that opinion (any place but here, that is). I just want to find a nice, quiet, old-fashioned church where I can hold an actual book in my hand and be expected find the correct pages. Where the silent prayers are actually silent and not accompanied by music. Where church could go on without missing a beat if the power went out - maybe a little dimmer is all. Just me and the other dinosaurs!

Where church could go on without missing a beat if the power went out - maybe a little dimmer is all.

LOL, Sandy! That happened during our (pretty traditional) wedding service, in the middle of a hymn! And the service really did go on without missing a beat, a cappella. The pastor had the acolyte open the stained glass windows further to let in more light. The organist hummed a gentle accompaniment for our soloist who sang "Amazing Grace." And -- a note of humor -- on his way back from receiving Communion, the organist leaned over and whispered in my ear, "Sorry, I can't hum the Widor Toccata" -- which was our selected postlude. But the closing hymn rang out in beautiful 4-part harmony. A chapel full of seminarians is a great place to get married if you love music. (Our seminary was obviously more of the harmony-loving school!)

There is much to be said for traditional worship. And, really, it's just fine to be most comfortable there. I do love good, traditional liturgy.

a nice, quiet, old-fashioned church where I can hold an actual book in my hand and be expected find the correct pages. Where the silent prayers are actually silent and not accompanied by music.

Actually, Sandy, I suspect you'd be quite comfortable with worship in our current parish -- if you lived a little closer to here, that is :)

I've never belonged to a church that used screens for traditional worship. The congregation my father-in-law belongs to in Florida has them, mostly for pre-worship announcements and special programs rather than for during Sunday worship, as I recall; they have bulletins with the liturgy and reference numbers to the hymnal.

ETA to close quotation marks -- hate to leave them just dangling open . . .

I'm in the praise band at my Baptist church - I play guitar, my wife plays the piano. We do a mixed batch of music, usually starting with two or three praise songs followed by prayer, then traditional hymns from the hymnal. We use screens for announcements before the service and for the praise songs, but they're to either side of the front area. We have a cross that's the focal point, and the pulpit and Communion table are center front. So it's certainly possible to strike a balance between the different approaches to worship.

#140 I suspect you'd be quite comfortable with worship in our current parish -- if you lived a little closer to here, that is :) I wish I did live close enough to visit your parish!

#141 It sounds like my community may not be quite typical in how this balance is struck - which is just even more frustrating! What you describe sounds very fair and reasonable. Why can't we find something like that?

Wow! What a fascinating discussion I have missed out on. I am glad to be catching up at this point.

I'm skimming a lot of this since I'm on the road. As an off-hand observation, the praise service seems to be one of the reasons given for the explosion of the recent mega-chruch phenomenon. I don't like it, but I guess if it gets more people in the door, it's (maybe) better than nothing. On the other hand, as I mentioned above, I wonder how long it will continue to attract those same people on a lifetime basis.

As I said earlier, we have what is called a blended service. At our church we use the choir, orchestra, piano, organ, drums, guitars, etc., but we too still have communion table, cross and banners to honor Christ, pulpit, etc. up front as well as an altar where we can all come during the prayer time. Prayer time is not completely silent as the pianist improvises in the background. It's worshipful, and since it's not a recognizable song is not nearly as distracting as when you are wanting to sing along with what is being played. We have large screens on the sides. They are used for announcements and words to song, scripture, and outline, but we still have a worship folder (which you can find under the Resources tab of our home page if you want to see: http://www.fbcmtn.com/). We also have sermon notes that are distributed with blanks to fill in. You will find those under the listen tab and then under the recent sermon videos tab. For someone who wants to watch the service from TV or via the live stream, they can access upcoming sermon notes under the Resources tab. I think we do a pretty good job of achieving balance. There are rumors that we'll begin a contemporary service next year, but I believe that it will not be held in the sanctuary.

Late to the discussion but catching up.

I was raised (parochial schools for 12 years) as a Roman Catholic, however, as the liturgies have changed over the years I have found that CHURCH doesn't do it for me any more. I have found that, as noted above, there is not enough introspective prayer. I pray to God every day but I don't think that I've been in a Church in many years (other than weddings, baptisms, funerals, etc).

Whenever I have gone to church, there are people checking their e-mails, looking at their watches, parents helping kids color and do puzzles. This to me is not worship.

I remember as a very young child and tutu can testify, when we went to church, we watched and were silent (even though we didn't understand what was being said - it was in Latin). There was a reverence that we absorbed by just watching. The organ music was part of that reverence. When, as I grew older and was in high school, the musical standards changed to guitars and tambourines, I was discouraged, and because this was permitted, I avoided those masses vehemently. I suppose what I would need to find to return to regular Sunday services, would be a small church with only a traditional service with organ music and old fashioned hymns. If anyone knows of one in my area, please let me know. I'm afraid to go hunting on my own.

Sandy, I applaud you for your determination to try to find a church that will sustain you and your family. I pray that you will be successful.

146 I think one is more likely to find traditional worship in smaller congregations -- that's not a set rule, but a lot of the larger churches have gone contemporary, and/or a lot of the churches that have hung onto strictly traditional worship have stayed small. However, such churches may lack a trained organist, due to finances and/or the widespread shortage of organists.

I do think that the changes in parent/child behavior in church have, in some cases, resulted from the ever-increasing rates of developmental disabilities. The documented increase in autism rates alone is astounding in the last 20 years or so. I remember what a struggle it was to be able to have my son in church. I wanted him to learn to be in church and be still and worship; but he could only learn to do that by being there, and I was concerned to have him there lest he disturb others. He never would have "gotten it" without a congregation with some patience, and some months (years?) with distracting but quiet activities to allow him to eventually adjust to the surroundings and learn -- with much teaching and repetition -- what was expected. Especially being a clergy family, the whole thing was extremely painful at times.

I can gratefully say that he not only sits quietly through worship now (in some instances, when he should be standing, I'm afraid) but he's also a very good lector and is also now an acolyte. He loves to read the Bible, and probably knows the liturgy better than many adult church members. He often catches mistakes in the church bulletins -- even hymn numbers -- with a quick glance!

Terri,

I didn't want you to think that I felt it was wrong for parents to take their children to church, you are right the only way that they learn how to behave is by being there. I just remember that I didn't go to church until my father and mother felt that I could sit quietly and behave. My mother stayed home with me while my older sisters went to church with Daddy. Then when I was sent to church, we were "rewarded" for good behavior by a special breakfast at home after church.

One other note, I remember that for the first few years of my church experiences, we were unable to eat before we went to church - breakfast or the origin of the word was to break your fast after mass. You couldn't even have water (unless you had a medical reason). So seeing food and drinks for non toddlers and other school age children in church seems wrong to me. A few hours of no food or drink won't hurt them, right?

148 Cheli, what your parents did may work fine for typical kids. But a person of any age on the autism spectrum -- and there are many these days -- may not be able to sit quietly in worship until they've spent some time there learning to simply tolerate the (to them) overwhelming sensory stimuli of worship. Distractions (like coloring books, puzzles, and even a snack) may help with that, though there will probably still be "meltdowns." My son was thrown for a loop by the sound of the organ, chanted liturgy, and the congregation speaking in unison. (Many families with kids on the spectrum find contemporary services even more daunting, due to the decibel level!) Kids with other learning disabilities may have similar or other issues.

What you said in post 146 about absorbing the sense of reverence just by watching? Kids on the autism spectrum have difficulty learning even the most obvious social skills that way, let alone something as abstract as "reverence."

Sorry, this is a very emotional subject for me. Too many bad experiences with people who made assumptions about my child and my parenting skills, not understanding that an otherwise normal-looking kid could have a serious -- and biologically-based -- developmental disorder. I get a little carried away on the subject sometimes.

Cheli and Terri - I enjoyed both your "stories" very much. I think we're all on the same page with kids needing to "learn" to be in church. But their parents need to teach them - it's not enough just to bring them in. (Some of the adults I've seen need to learn how to behave in church, too.) I have no problem with small children coloring quietly, or even having a little snack (cheerios are perfect). But I expect their parents to be encouraging them to be quiet and still and to take them out when they aren't. Note, I don't think "quiet" is at all the same as "silent". I think most folks are tolerant of the small murmurings of a young child being quiet. It's the whining and crying and talking out loud, jumping up and down, kicking the pew, etc, that upset me - when the parents don't do anything about it, that is. And I don't like it when the parent sits and whispers and colors or plays with the kid. That isn't teaching them to be quiet. "You sit still and color your picture so I can listen to the preacher talking" is what I want those parents to tell their kids.

Terri, thanks for the insights into the special problems that come with having an autistic child. I'm so glad that you were able to help your son be able to sit in church. (Even if he should be standing!)

There was quite a few years when we rarely went to church. We'd go to Sunday School, and then home. I hated going to the nursery and between my brother and me, we weren't very well-behaved in church, so Mom and Dad rarely stayed longer than Sunday School. Until we were old enough to sit still for an hour. Probably 4 or 5 years old. But I learned. I didn't always like sitting in church, but I could do it well enough to allow my folks to attend regularly. And pretty soon, I came to appreciate it, and then to actually enjoy church. By the time I was in junior high and high school, I went to church more often than they did - my grandparents picked me up and took me with them to church if Mom and Dad didn't go.

Another observation is that so many of our children have been raised in the MTV era. These, as you know, are flash video images that may or may not be of some complexity, but there is never time given to really "see" the image or certainly not time to analyze, interpret and appreciate them. This is similar to watching people stream through an art gallery, hardly stopping at art objects long enough to do more than create their own flash video image. How many children today do you know who can sit still long enough to play chess, for example, or sit and listen (really listen) to classical music? Look at TV advertising today for products aimed at youth and you'll see the same flash image approach.

We have abandoned the self-discipline of earlier generations, for good or ill. I suspect one can make a case either way, but a lot of the "entertainment" spectacle associated with contemporary services is aimed to capture that mentality. I won't begin to suggest it's either good or bad, it just is what it is and churches are learning to deal with it. I have some real concerns about the lasting value of that type of religion. I hope I'm wrong.

My take on all of this is from the pov of someone who, as a child of the 1950s, was expected to "behave" in church. The 3 and 4 year-olds had their own service, then the 5 through 10 year olds had theirs. Mrs. Day was the amazing woman who was in charge of that service for the older kids. I'll never forget her. In fourth grade, we were confirmed and consequently allowed to go to the adult church with our parents.

I'm sure this strategy of segrating young children might be considered bizarre today, but I also know that it worked. By the time we were old enough to go to church with our parents, we were ready to sit in church and participate, we could listen to the sermon, follow along in the prayer book, and sing the hymns. Sitting in church with our parents was a priviledge, not a punishment, as some kids seem to consider it today. I don't mean to put down what's being done today, allowing children to color and eat and apparently ignore everything that's going on around them, but it doesn't make much sense to me: as Sandy said, children need to be taught how to act in church, just like anywhere else. My take on it is that what we're doing with children in church today to teach them how to act in church isn't working. Isn't what we're doing actually teaching them to ignore what's going on if we let them eat or read or whatever it is they do? Of course there are churches that are doing a good job of teaching the ethos of church to young children, but I think they're the exception, not the norm.

With a minister father and pianist mother, my brother and I were in church every Sunday unless one of us was sick. For the most part, the churches we attended didn't have children's services. My mother usually gave us paper to draw on, or we would draw on the bulletin if there was one available. I also loved to study the maps and pictures in my Bible and in my mother's Bible (when she wasn't using it, of course!) Even though my hands were busy, I absorbed a lot of content from the sermons. I also believe that singing out of the hymnal helped me learn to read both words and music. (I was reading at age 4.) My parents would hold the hymnal at my eye level and trace the words with one finger.

Even though I know how much I learned as a child when it probably appeared to adults that I wasn't paying attention, I tend to assume that most of the children I see aren't engaged in what's happening around them. I always have to remind myself that they're probably aware of more than they appear to be.

I don't recall ever having food or drinks in church, other than maybe a cough drop when I had a sore throat.

I just opened Sandy's thread for some quiet reading about her recent books, and find this disquieting discussion, instead! I have to chime in, since it's something that has been much on my mind for years.

What some of you call the 7-11 songs, I've always called marshmallow fluff. A service with no hymns feels akin to going to dinner at a friend's home where every course is marshmallow fluff. You leave empty. That is what such services feel like to me – I leave empty.

I grew up Baptist, and my husband grew up Lutheran. We tried many different denominations in our early years. Turned out – he didn't care and I did – so we settled in a Baptist church, and that is what we look for whenever work calls us to a different location. We've worshiped in Baptist churches in Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri, Oklahoma and Texas. Through the years, we've found them moving more and more toward the praise band approach. In the earlier years, they would insert a few praise songs in between the regular hymns. Perhaps that should have bothered me more than it did; looking back, it feels like the camel's nose under the tent. Now, its hard to find a church that hasn't gone the whole way to the praise band route.

I don't dismiss praise bands out of hand. I've seen a few instances where the younger folks seemed to enjoy them, but in the vast majority – no one sings along, not even the group targeted. Services which included praise bands wouldn't bother me so much if they would just include some good, meaty hymns, too. But they don't. And so often when we see the praise team walk to the front, it's a fashion contest, and especially in hot Texas, it looked more like an 'intimates' fashion runway. Not what I come to church for.

Terri – I love to see families in the process of pew-training. Whether new children joining the family pew, or new converts learning what it's all about. I find that a heart-warming sight. I hope most people would be tolerant of medical issues making that a lengthier and harder job. It's those who don't care and who don't even try that bother me.

And I'm probably one who bothers others. I can't carry a tune - but I love to sing the old hymns. So, we're still in the same situation that you are, Sandy. STILL looking!

There is a reason classic hymns are called classics - they endure. I would hope enduring belief is the reason to begin with, and the thing to aim for. If there is something "disquieting," I suspect it's the threatened loss of these anchors for us 'old timers.' I just hope there's something left when we're gone ...

Interesting discussion in which everyone has expressed personal views without getting 'personal.' Amazing - what a group! I hope everyone has a great holiday season, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah or whatever speaks to you. I'm looking forward to a great weekend with the family in NJ.

Interesting discussion in which everyone has expressed personal views without getting 'personal.'

That's what I LOVE about this group -- even when we disagree, we seem to manage to have a civilized discussion. It's so different from so much of what we see in the society around us, where people try to out-shout each other on a regular basis when they have different opinions.

I'm glad if I managed to come across in a civilized, not-getting-personal way -- I hope I did -- as we have been in very tender territory for me. I guess I'm an oddball in that I really like praise and worship music -- I listen to it in the car and at home a lot of the time, even (especially!) though I'm no longer in a church that does it. It has really opened new doors in my spiritual seeking, and offered genuine comfort and uplift in some very dark days. I consider myself rather sophisticated musically -- a former music major with eclectic tastes, everything from Albinoni through Miles Davis to ZZ Top -- so hearing some of my favorite music described as "fluff" and such does hit a nerve.

But I have to say the same thing I say about different taste in books: if we all liked exactly the same thing, what a horribly boring world this would be!

Well, then you were more civilized than me, Terri ... I'm so sorry I hit a nerve. It's not that I don't like praise music; just that I can't take a steady diet of it, with no other musical dishes served. My lament was that it seems to have become an either/or kind of situation without variety any more. So right you are about different tastes!

PS: I love your profile picture. I've only been to that book store once, but it was the most fun I've ever had book shopping!

157 It's OK, Cindy. No apology required. Frankly, I wouldn't want praise music to be the only worship music I heard, either. I've been blessed to experience a wide variety of worship styles over the course of my life, and I've enjoyed most (maybe not all) of those experiences.

Right now, I really miss singing with a choir that does some of the standard choral repertoire. When I lived in Philadelphia and in the Boston area, it was easy to at least find a Messiah sing-along during the holiday season, but I've had no luck even in that regard where we currently live.

re: your PS -- I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE shopping at the Book Barn! I usually try to work in a visit during our summertime vacation each year. We didn't get there this year, and I really missed it!

Sandy, your thread has turned into a most interesting conversation. I'll interrupt the talk about how we worship to wish you and all the seekers here the true blessings of Christmas of love, joy, peace, and hope.

Merry Christmas, Sandy!

160 Love that, Roni!

Merry Christmas, Sandy!!

Sending all my LT friends the warmest of Christmas wishes. Travel safely, and have a second piece of pie if you want it.

glitter-graphics.com

Have a wonderful Christmas, Sandy!

Sandy - wishing you a happy festive season and a prosperous and peaceful 2012. Look forward to keeping up with you in 2012.

Merry Christmas Sandy . . .

A very Merry Christmas to you, Sandy! I hope 2012 is a wonderful year for you!

mistletoe smooches!

Merry Christmas Sandy!

Sandy, I hope your Christ-mas was one of peace, hugs, love, and beautiful family memories , both made and remembered. You were much in my heart this past month. May your new year bring a healing balm.

Thanks for all the Christmas wishes. It was a lovely day for our family, and I hope it was for each of you as well. Only a couple of days left in this year. I hope to finish at least one more book, plus I think I have one book, or maybe two, that I've finished already but haven't posted.

I'm looking forward to the new year, and have already set up a new thread in the 75 Books in 2012 group. I hope you will all look for me over there next week.

http://www.librarything.com/topic/129411

Book #88



Mini Farming: Self-Sufficiency on 1/4 Acre by Brett L Markham

As most of you know, if you've been reading my book comments for very long, I am a gardening book junkie. I love everything about them - the glossy color photos first of all, the simple step-by-step guidelines, and the optimistic promise that delicious fruits and vegetables can be had from my very own backyard (after weeks or months of back-breaking work, but that spoils the illusion so we won't linger on that point). My parents weren't gardeners but both sets of grandparents were and I loved being there among the growing things. We sometimes keep a small garden - I enjoy growing herbs especially - and I like being able to cook with something I just carried in from the backyard. My fantasy is to have the time and space to be able to put in a garden large enough to feed us. (And, of course, the strength to be able to do that, but that is part of the back-breaking work mentioned earlier which we are ignoring for now.)

This book plays right into that fantasy, and has everything about serious organic intensive gardening - enough to feed the family and have extras to sell. Including chickens - for eggs and meat. Even grain. I loved it. 4-1/2 stars.

I've posted a larger-than-normal cover image so you can see it better. The cover really isn't very unique or special in any way. But the collection of small photos sucks me in. Except for the artichokes - I don't like artichokes. But the newly pulled carrots with bits of garden soil clinging to them, the rich black earth being planted with shiny white seeds, the giant red strawberries (yum), the bright red garden boots - they all just take me to a happy place!

Book #89



Heaven is for Real by Todd Burpo

I don't know where I first heard of this book - the story of a little boy (3 years old - that's him on the cover) who had a near-death experience during surgery for a ruptured appendix. The book is written by his father, a small-town pastor in western Nebraska. It is charmingly written, using the simple, straightforward language of a small child. I'd heard snippets from it - there are no old people in heaven, no one wears glasses - stuff like that, and picked it up on impulse at the library.

Briefly, the story is that Colton underwent emergency surgery and was not expected to survive. After a long recovery, he began to say strange things to his parents. "Dad, Jesus used Dr O'Holleran to help fix me. You need to pay him." Just as his parents were fretting over the enormous bills that were coming in, and wondering how they would manage. "Yeah, I know Dad. Jesus told me I had to be nice." After he was scolded for not sharing toys. His parents began encouraging him to talk about his experience and to ask open-ended questions. They quickly became convinced that Colton HAD been to heaven - he simply knew too many things that could not be explained any other way. Later, they began to share the stories with others who began to encourage the family to write a book, which they did.

It is very short and I read it in a single sitting in less than 2 hours. It is thought-provoking, and seemed less embellished, and thus more believable, than other accounts of heaven that I've read. Todd - the father - backs up several of Colton's accounts of heaven, the angels, God and Satan with relevant passages from the Bible that are remarkably similar. Colton's lessons: God hears our prayers, He LOVES children, and you have to know Jesus or you can't get into heaven.

Hi Sandy. That gardening book looks wonderful. I keep threatening to tear out the grass in my front yard and plant vegetables, since that's where I get the best sun. One of these days I just might!

Our pastor used Heaven Is For Real as a sermon illustration, and I picked up the book for my Kindle shortly thereafter. You (or someone else) was talking about Mini Farming the other day. It does look really good. I'll add it to the ever-growing wish list.

#174 One of these days you should!

#175 It might have been me, I posted about the gardening book a week or so ago in the 12-12 challenge group. I'm looking forward to your comments about Heaven is for Real.

Book #90



Death Comes for the Archbishop by Willa Cather

Willa Cather is one of the great discoveries I've made as a result of LT. I'd heard of her before, of course, but never had any encouragement to actually read any of her books. Two or three years ago I started with O Pioneers!, then read My Antonia about a year ago. I loved them both. This book, of course, is very different from those other two. I read it now as a result of Becky's (Labwriter) invitation to read along with her as she did a re-read. I'm glad I did. I think I might like it better than the other Cather's I've already read.

This book is about Bishop Latour, a young French Jesuit who is sent to Santa Fe, NM to take over the leadership of the new diocese formed after the territories of New Mexico and Arizona became part of the United States. There is no real plot, just a series of episodes from the experiences of Father Latour and Father Vaillant, his life-long friend and associate, as they spent the rest of their lives serving first the Indians and Mexicans in the desert and, later, the Americans who flooded into the region when gold was discovered in the neighboring Colorado Rockies. But they are beautifully written. In just a few scenes, we have a clear sense of these two men. Cather writes with such elegance - conveying so much information in very few words. The scenery, the people, the feelings and emotions, the joy and heartache - none could have been better described in a book twice as long.

Thanks, Becky. I love it and highly recommend it.

And, having reached a nice round 90 books for the year, this is probably as far as I will get for 2011. I guess it's possible to finish another book today or tomorrow, but I'm not far enough along in anything for that to be probable. Plus I have some other things that I really need to finish before the year-end (darn continuing education requirements - but thank goodness for on-line grading).

Looking back, it's been a difficult year for us, but we've also received so many blessings. The LT community is very high on that list. I already don't remember most of the books I read this year, but I'll never forget the support, and caring, and love that I've gotten from all of you. Thank you for that. Eternally optimistic, I'm looking forward to a better year in 2012 - filled with great books and wonderful friends. Happy New Year!

Hello to you and all good wishes!

#178 Sandy, happy new year!! I hope that 2012 is a better year for you.

In mid-January, it'll be 3 years for me on LT. I can't even conceive of life without LT at this point. To think I signed up just to be able to catalog my books...

Sandy-- we had a mini-garden for several years when we were younger, stronger, and had a child to help. It was fun, it was a LOT of work, and the food was delicious. Now because we have so many trees around limiting the amount of sun, and we have such a short growing season here in Maine, I'm limiting myself to herbs, and supporting the local farmer by buying a CSA share every year. I also "bought" a chicken, which the farmer raises, feeds and scoops for us, so all I have to do is go say hello to "martha" once a week and collect my 1/2 doz eggs. Two of our neighbors have chickens, but after listening to their tales of woe about keeping the foxes out of the hen-house ------literally----I'm perfectly happy to let farmer Larry do it for me.

Hope you and your family have a cozy New Year's weekend. Looking forward to seeing you on the 2012 threads.

Sandy - My review of Heaven Is for Real should be on the review page for the book. I read it last spring.

Happy New Year, Sandy! I hope that you have a wonderful 2012.

Oh, and the Mini Farming book looks fabulous. I'll happily eat the artichokes for you. ;)

I still think the Square Foot Gardening books by Mel Bartholomew are the best for gardening with limited space, energy and time!

I remember those books, and the television show, too. I really liked how tidy the gardens looked with their raised symmetrical plots . . .