Spoiler Thread - The Detour / Group Read

I thought it would be best to start a spoiler thread as of course some of us will read faster / or slower than others. So here it is! :)

Okay, I've created a link to the spoiler thread on wiki .

Thanks, Deb. I'm interested in hearing more thoughts on the Emily Dickinson reference, too. Deb, based on what you found at Wikipedia about Dickinson sleeping with women as well as men, and the fact that the reference is about bed, I'm thinking Bakker's reference is physical, sexual. He excels at this, doesn't he? I remember The Twin was full of such references: not gratuitous but part of his story, and very well done.

Things to ponder on. I've got my book scribbled in with questions and ideas to share with you.

Page 5 - the description of the house Emilie rents - "under it a large cellar, whose purpose she had not fathomed. ...A horizontal strip window offered little light -etc. I'm wondering if this refers to Emilies subconscious -an area that is open like the trap door, but has very little light.? There is also mention of needing curtains. I'm wondering about the lack of curtains and what it mean symbolically. Bakker is very spare in his writing, usually there is meaning when he takes a lot of time to describe things.

On page 7 - Emilie thinks to herself "" Her being there had something to do with her that uncle" - the one that tried to commit suicide in a waist high pond ( page6 ). I'm wondering if the physicality and mention of her groin etc has to do with some thing that went on with her uncle in the past?

The when she gets bitten by the badger - it seems unprovoked as she is sleeping -and yet, the doctor and townspeople seem to be insistent that Badgers are timid animals and how could she get bitten by one? page 17 - the doctor and her discussion with him - was she asleep or not totally with it? On page 15, even when the badger bites her foot, shes is still anxious that the badger not get to her groin. Sexual abuse in Emilies past? I'm just guessing and pondering that. As you say, Nancy, Bakker does excel in physical and sexual references and they are not gratuitous, but part of the of the story.

Could that be part of why Emilie thinks in a masculine way - groins - or is it just that Bakker is man? I'm finding the book fascinating.

Dee, let us know about Emily Dickison and every one, just share your thoughts/ and/ or feel free to agree / disagree with mine. This is what I found so fascinating about The Twin. So many references that you could easily miss - or maybe I am " overreading."

p. 5 Hadn't thought of that, Deb; but certainly the cellar could be symbolic of Emilie's subconscious. My initial response to the lack of curtains was voyeurism, but we'll have to see how that plays out. You're right in that Bakker writes very sparely, and usually ALL of his details are meaningful.

p. 7 We're definitely on the same page with the uncle; that there was some sexual abuse between them in the past was my first thought.

(I haven't read any farther yet ...)

The cellar - I was remembering how much the house meant in The Twin . If you remember, the son moved his dad into an upstairs room against his will . There was a lot about him moving his dad upstairs , no curtains in the house and meaning surrouding the beds and rooms and sleeping arrangements in The Twin. I think there was also mention of no curtains until afterThe Twin resolve things, if I remember correctly. I'm just paying a lot of attention to the details because I found many of them to be meaningful in The Twin and even as far as the house and redecorating went.

I lost my book tonight! Could not get any further as yet. Oh well! Finally found it.

Deb and Nancy - very interesting observations. I have the same feeling that every sentence in the book is carefully constructed and that everything has a deeper, hidden meaning. I read slowly and stop to ponder upon things that might mean something else or more.

I liked the comparison with the pond and the cottage (ch 4).

The uncle wanting to commit suicide in the pond but not being able to - powerlessness - and she feeling the house as a standstill. Like a void.

I think the opening chapters establish her interior vulnerability through the physical - the desolate surroundings of course but also her being bitten (by a meek animal?), stumbling and hoppling about, trying to ease the pain with pills and wine and unable to protect the geese.

Well, secrets are yet to be revealed - i'm intrigued. Great start!

Great posts, Deb and Carsten! I'm only at ch 5 or 6, but Bakker has indeed created a strong start! Carsten, like your point about the pond/cottage and powerlessness.

Really a thoughtful , insightful post, Carsten. Establishing her interior vunerability through the physical - bitten by a meek animal, all of that paracetamol... yes Carsten... I'll have to re- read that chapter and think more on it. The pond and house -more to consider.

Thanks to both of you, for your thoughts. I'm intrigued too..

Just went back and reread the last paragraph in Ch 4. Powerful stuff, how we are most vulnerable when we are at a standstill, don't know whether to move forward or back. I'm curious now about this standstill image which seems to equate to powerlessness and vulnerability.

eta: house without curtains could also be symbolic of vulnerability

Yes, that's right, Nancy. Most vulnerable when we are at a standstill....

About Dickinson I initially thought about the comparison - Dickinson's life being very, very secluded - she hardly went further away than her own garden- and not confiding in people around her, having a very fragile health - and her poems centering so much upon nature, death and doubts about God (whats with the cross in the doctor's office?)- But maybe there's a more specific reason for the choice.

Hi, I just found out I finished The Detour exactly one year ago tomorrow. One year is a bit too long for me to remember all the details, but all this talk makes me want to pick up the book again for a reread. I think you discover a lot of new things in it. I'm off to check if the book is available at the library. Have fun with the read!

#12: Hope you find a copy - it would be so nice to have your input on the novel...At the moment we are guessing a lot based on what we have read so far....

I have not had a chance to re read the chapters yet, but both of you making very interesting points. I've been reading up on Emily Dickinson, and yes, Carsten, I think you are correct about Emily Dickinson's poems being quite focused on death, isolation, and nature.

@12 -Monica, thanks for stopping by and chatting with us! We owe our knowledge of book to you, so thanks for letting me know that Gerbrand Bakker was having The Detour translated into English. Please join us any time!

Thanks, Carsetn and Deb, for more thoughtful posts! Come on down, Monica!

Just highlighted this in Ch 9 which struck me: 'Last night looking at herself smoking, she saw her face change into a stranger's: a voyeur rather than a reflection." I think this fits with vulnerability, almost like she has stepped outside of herself in an effort to protect herself from harm.

I was doing some more re - reading and I'm thinking that maybe she is ill, more so than we are led to believe. Back in chapter 3 , the last sentence = " She couldn't do anything about it;she couldn't stop a fox in the night." page6 . Later on page9, chapter 5 she thinks" My yard. I could do something with that, she thought , smoking one cigarette after another. - and then later she does work in her garden - the only thing that she can control.

Later on again, when she sees the doctor in on page 17,there is a cross on the wall - as Carsten pointed out, as well as crooked poster warning about a HIV - and the words Exit Only . The doctor smokes non- stop just like Emilie does and says" we all have to die of something." He asks her" Any other complaints " and she replies " no" and the doctor asks her again - are you sure?

Then he warns her to watch out for badgers and page 19 " Badgers and foxes . Foxes have a nasty bite on them too."

So- she acknowledges her helplessness and inability to stop a fox in the night -and then the doctor warns her about foxes biting. I think she is ill with something . Maybe lung cancer, ? given all of the smoking of both her and the doctor? And that would explain the fox in the night. But I'm just guessing at that.

And on page 11 , she goes walking and comes to a T -junction. Where does a T - junction go? Not forward - you can only go to the left or the right. I think her life is at a T -junction.

I think you are onto something there too, Nancy, That same chapter , Chapter 9 - "It was November ;in days it would be December and the days would be even shorter." Next sentence - "Curtains, she had written it down on the piece of paper lying in front of her. It was the first word that she wrote down.

I'm wondering if "Curtains " is alluding to her death . Maybe it's just a translation thing, but the word curtains is written all by itself and in italics in the book. My dad always used to say that something was " Curtains" when something was going badly - or more pointedly - some one was dying. Like when you bring down the curtains at the end of a performance. I'm thinking that much is alluding to her upcoming death?

What's up with that stone that she lies on? I'm not sure yet.

ETA - fixed up a couple of missing words . sorry! :)

From Rogets Thesauraus online: Roget's Thesaurus:
curtain
Top
Home > Library > Literature & Language > Thesaurus

noun

The act or fact of dying. death, decease, demise, dissolution, extinction, passing, quietus, rest.

@15 - Maybe she has trouble acknowledging her vulnerability or illness - and only every now and then she can see herself as she really is in a reflection?

I'm really enjoying our discussions - thanks so much for joining the group read, everyone. I hope we soon see Dee and Mamie.

Ooh, Deb, interesting observations! I'm familiar with the expression, "Curtains," in the way your dad used it. We used/heard the expression often growing up. They certainly mean something, because Bakker has used them many times already. I'm also curious as to the number of references about smoking; our North American view on smoking has become so stilted that smokers are social outcasts. I wonder if this is the same in Europe?

I wondered briefly if Emilie might be pregnant. Thinking back to the doctor, "Are you sure?" (there's nothing else you want to talk to me about). We'll find out!!

This is easily as good as The Twin. Bakker has become a favourite author!

I have wondered to about Emilie being pregnant, or having cancer in her "groin' abdominal area - or some sort of illness there. Or did she pick up AIDs from her young lover ? But I think that she is dying of something.

Yes, I am not sure about all of the references to smoking either. Do we read it differently than someone that does not live in North America? Maybe Carsten or Monica or Dee can shed some light on how much smoking happens in Europe.

I keep wondering why people keep thinking that she is German and it is important that she corrects them that she is Dutch. Is being German a negative thing in Europe? Or maybe it means nothing -but Bakker does pack a lot into his words.

I really like Bakker too! Excellent discussions here! Just what I'd longed for!

Many wonderful "readings" :) I get inspired to read on in new ways.

About smoking I think it's about the same situation in most of Europe - at least northern Europe - that smokers are social outcast. Not allowed anywhere. First I didn't think much of it, but the repeated heavy smoking also by the doctor must allude to something.

"We must all die of something", the cross (symbol of dying), Exit only, the failed suicide by the uncle, the geese being killed, and the curtain as you both pointed out all allude to this theme but in what way will be interesting to see.

Her fatally ill is perhaps it. Maybe that she's desperate to save the geese / unable to save them allude to her dying as well.

I'm at ch. 24 and have to slow down now but it's hard. The novel has got me hooked. More is revealed of the relationship to the uncle and he tells her something that might be important to the story - but still unclear what it means. Do you have any idea?

And what about the title? The Detour? Any thoughts on that?

I'm at chapter 34 - but then I have to read backwards to capture it all.

Yes I think the smoking must allude to illness/death. On page 21 "The doctor hadn't mentioned it no surprise there; he was smoking himself to death in a surgery with a cross on the wall." The cross on the wall - one needs faith maybe , as the doctor only has so much to offer - not a cure - thus the crooked cross etc.

I'm thinking that the geese are a metaphor for her illness or impending death ( at I think that maybe so).

Page 14 " She tries to localize the mild nagging pain. Nagging and not as she had expected; like dozens of tiny beaks slowly but surely eating thier way through her insides."

Then page 19 - Dr says " Foxes have a nasty bite on them." Page 20 "They're to to busy with my geese." The doctor started to cough

My geese she thought on the way to the chemist's . Now they're my geese all of a sudden.

I think as the geese disappear, that indicates a progression of her illness Maybe she also realizes at that moment that the geese / illness are hers?

With the mention of the Fox having a bad bite and the foxes/ fox being at the geese and killing them - I think that evidence that the geese are a metaphor. Page 34 -35 - 36 - Emilie tries to build a shelter for the geese, to guard them against he fox/ es or whatever is preying on them. But she has difficulties with the shed and then " The geese refused to be herded into the shelter." ........ " Ungrateful , dirty, stinking , pig-headed creatures! she shouts " I am trying to bloody save you." But they refuse to herded. Well, Carsten, I suppose I have said in a long way what you have said!

Initially I thought that someone was stalking Emilie , and killing off the geese - but now I think it means illness/death is stalking Emilie and bit by bit she is dying/ getting more ill.

More later - off to watch the news.

The title - hmm ... I''ll think on that. I'll be back later.

I read the biography Emily Dickinson and the Art of Belief two years ago and are slowly working my way through her poems so that's why she's on my radar. The biography is highly recommended for Dickinson fans.

Quote from ch 16

Presentiment is that long shadow on the lawn,
Indicative that suns go down;
The notice to the startled grass
That darkness is about to pass

An explanation of this poem can be found here.

The suns go down is also alluding to death.

Quote from ch 19

These are the days when skies put on
The old, old sophistries of June, -
A blue and gold mistake

What does the blue and gold mistake mean? Emilie ask herself that question.....

I love the ending of ch. 21. It's so simple - yet powerful. There's also a deeper meaning here of course.

Wow, the quote from page 14 - didn't notice that - thanks Deb, we are finding death all around us now :)

Please state the chapter on your quote, Deb - my Kobo app doesn't have the page nr. as your book.

The geese - allusion to death stalking Emilie.....also good thoughts.

Detour: Well, it's about arriving - coming to a destination, maybe to a closure - but taking the long way home, the difficult way there, not the obvious way or easiest way. But in terms of what?...She mentions something about homesickness together with the Dickinson quote from ch. 16.

Carsten, the quote from page 14 is in chapter 9. Let me gather a few more of my thoughts. I really appreciate your sharing that poem, which is also in the book . I was also thinking that December / winter often represents death .

The Detour - I'm wondering is she taking a detour in her life , or do the two visitors to her home that I have read ahead about - are they taking a detour?

I'm also wondering why Emilie repeated picks up the book "Wind in the Willows" to read. It is a children's book - filled with fantasy stories about animals. What if anything is that saying about Emilie? End of chapter 9 again, " Later she pulled The Wind in the Willows out of the pile of books... and rediscovered how gruff and solitary badgers can be, an animal that 'simply hate society." That night her foot started to throb.

Your quote from chapter 16 and 19 are both wonderful and insightful. I had noticed them but you give a fabulous background to it all. Thanks for that.

The uncle - I'm not fully understanding his role in this - at least not entirely. It will be good when can discuss that here. I think you will have more insight to offer. I understand somewhat -but not fully.

With geese / death metaphor, I've also noticed that she bathes in bathtub with clawed feet.

I guess we''ll see where Nancy is tomorrow before we continue too much more discussion. I find I read ahead and then have to go back to better understand the story. You and Nancy and anyone else that wishes to join us are definitely coming up with some wonderful observations and information that helps me understand the story much better than I could on my own.

Thanks for that!

Here is a link to the book " The Wind in the Willows" which Emilie reads quite often - I'm wondering what it says about the story " The Detour".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wind_in_the_Willows

a small quote from wiki - The Wind in the Willows is a classic of children's literature by Kenneth Grahame, first published in 1908. Alternately slow moving and fast paced, it focuses on four anthropomorphised animal characters in a pastoral version of England. The novel is notable for its mixture of mysticism, adventure, morality, and camaraderie and celebrated for its evocation of the nature of the Thames valley.

In 1908 Grahame retired from his position as secretary of the Bank of England. He moved back to Cookham, Berkshire, where he had been brought up and spent his time by the River Thames doing much as the animal characters in his book do—namely, as one of the most famous phrases from the book says, "simply messing about in boats"—and wrote down the bed-time stories he had been telling his son Alistair."

There is quite a bit more there. I'm just pondering on the meaning of including that book in the novel many times. I'm not quite sure what that means.

de·tour
n.
1. A roundabout way or course, especially a road used temporarily instead of a main route.
2. A deviation from a direct course of action.

Ok, I edited/deleted this post. I'm getting ahead of myself now. I'll post it later......

Ohhh can't wait, Carsten! :)

I'm still only on page 28 but should have a fair amount of free time today and hope to read a lot more later on.

I'm so glad I'm reading the book with this group as I'm already getting so much more out of it than I would otherwise.

Deb, I appreciated your comments about the possibility of the protag's seemingly male sexual attitudes being linked with abuse. That really does make sense. I do think abuse is a theme here. I too had that feeling about the uncle being an abuser and I also wondered if the protag herself had been accused of abuse. It is made clear early on that her affair was with a first year student so presumably he's pretty young. As a university student you'd still expect him to be at least eighteen but there would still be issues around an affair with a tutor!

The Emily Dickinson poetry fits perfectly into the mood of the book doesn't it? I'm now wondering if the reference to the portrait of Dickinson is to do with something from "Emilie''s recent past rather than a cultural reference.

Edited to add: On a lighter note, I am smiling at the protag's experiences of being in the UK. This was the UK, she'd be bound to run into a garden centre sooner or later and being repeatedly mistaken for German!

I'm only at Ch 17, and today is crazy. But I'm thoroughly enjoying. What a fabulous discussion, everyone!

Carsten, the references to Dickinson, the poem, and the explanation you posted were not only interesting, but also revealing. I'm not familiar with Dickinson and wouldn't have caught those without your notes. Deb, love your remarks on The Wind in the Willows and also the claw-foot tub. I remember the reference to the claw-foot tub, but I missed attaching any significance to it. Thanks for helping me get so much more from Bakker's prose than I would on my own!

Re the "detour," the first thing that comes to my mind is here husband's observation when he goes to her university office - her name has been removed from the door and someone else's name is now on the door. Signifies to me that Emilie's life has taken a detour, or an unexpected turn (as per the definitions Deb posted). Also, I wonder if she will return to this life? A detour is usually a temporary inconvenience.

I'm now on page 100 and the anticipation of death hinted at early on, seems closer to becoming a reality.

"Emelie" is still disbelieved regarding the badger bite. I'm wondering if not being believed is a constant theme in her life. Perhaps she wasn't believed about the early abuse?

There is something eccentric about the behaviour of the professionals in the book. The doctor ignores confidentiality, discusses his patients' symptoms flippantly at the hairdressers and has a very disconcerting manner with them. The policeman takes the husband to a gay bar and tries to flirt with him. Even the husband's doctor isn't who he is expecting. I have the sense in the book that authority figures are not quite to be trusted or relied on.

I enjoy reading your comments, Dee. Abuse might be a theme, but I haven't thought in that direction yet...Interesting comment on the authority-figures not to be trusted.....maybe there's something there....

Some of the people for sure have some strange behaviour, that's true, Dee. I can't help smiling a lot also. The scene at the hairdresser is strange and very funny at the same time.

I was thinking earlier (my deleted post now being undeleted) about ch 22 and the conversation between the husband and her family - the thing about being tested/not tested and able/unable to have children. I'm thinking more in line of pregnancy/abortion - or maybe (this is a wild guess) she got tested and it showed a serious illness - which would fit into the on-going "Deb-illness-theory" :)

BTW The Wind in the Willows is one of my favorite books - Gerbrand Bakker sure knows how to pick the references in this novel. Thanks for the info on Willows, Deb.

Nancy - About the name being replaced it certainly would indicate an unexpected turn - being replaced, thrown out as no use.....

What about the fire in the office? Did I miss something? Why did he do that? It seemed strange...

or maybe (this is a wild guess) she got tested and it showed a serious illness - which would fit into the on-going "Deb-illness-theory" :)

Yes, I think the scene with the husband and the doctor confirms what had been hinted at for a while. "Emelie" as she calls herself, is seriously ill. The doctor expected her to be in the middle of treatment. Maybe she is trying to take a "detour" from her journey towards death?

I abandoned my theory about Emelie as perceived abuser earlier on but still think abuse is an issue. The conversation between the husband and his in-laws shows that Emelie spent time alone with the uncle, returned upset and that the uncle was considered strange.

I think the fire in the office was because of the husband's anger at the affair with someone connected to the university though it does seem odd.

Wow, you're all very clever, seeing all these patterns and symbols in these early chapters. I can say much of it is right, but in order not to spoil it, I won't elaborate on that.

@ 20 - Do we read it differently than someone that does not live in North America? Maybe Carsten or Monica or Dee can shed some light on how much smoking happens in Europe. Like Carsten, I also believe that the North of Europe generally does not appreciate smoking. I read an article once that states that the further south you go in Europe, the more smoking is socially accepted (and even preferred), but I don't know if that is true (although I must say I notice a lot more smoking in France than in the Netherlands).

@ 20 - I keep wondering why people keep thinking that she is German and it is important that she corrects them that she is Dutch. Is being German a negative thing in Europe?
Dutch is a Germanic language, like German, English, Norwegian, Swedish or Danish, but to people who do not understand either German or Dutch, the language may sound the same. I know for a fact that many Dutch people are not amused or even offended if they are mistaken for Germans. Part of that may have to do with World War II which has had a tremendous impact on the mutual relationships between the neighbouring countries. Also in some countries German people aren't treated as well as others because of that. I remember a friend of mine went on holiday to Scandinavia and the inn-keeper didn't want to house him because he thought he was German and he didn't want anything to do with the "former enemy". He had to show his driver's license to prove he was not German (in the end, my friend declined to stay there because he did not want to stay in a place where people were discriminated :-)).
So, in short, yes, many Dutch I know are quite sensitive to being called German.

I know most of you cannot understand Dutch, but I'm adding the link to Gerbrand Bakker's weblog: http://www.gerbrandsdingetje.nl/
In his blog he refers to teaching literature and how he hates it when teachers overanalyze and instruct their pupils to find "themes" and "motives". In his opinion, literature is all about supposition and a feeling that is provoked (only he says it so much better) (http://www.gerbrandsdingetje.nl/#1463). However, I presume he'd love to see how much you are enjoying his books the way he intended to.

ETA: here's a link to an article and video about the making of a film based on The Twin with the director, Gerbrand Bakker and the actor who's playing Helmer: http://www.pzc.nl/regio/zeeland/10693463/Opnamen-speelfilm-in-Nieuw-Namen.ece
Maybe you'll be able to hear the difference between German and Dutch?

Thanks Joey! I'm now off to explore those links though I don't think I'll get far with Bakker's blog!

Here is Gerbrand Bakkers blog in google translater. Not perfect at all, hard to follow....but read "a sparrow in a willow".

http://translate.google.com/translate?twu=1?sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A//www.g...

Thanks for the links. I will read them a little later. I'm up to chapter 48 or 49. As I read further I have more ideas and even more QUESTIONS!!! :)

I wondered too - why would her husband light a fire? I understand that is he is upset, but lighting a fire at my husbands workplace if he has an affair ( which is not a worry of mine) - would be the last thing I would do.

I have a thought as to Emilies illness, but then I am really not sure. I'm not certain at this point if we will find out. There is just something with a sign in the doctors office that caught my attention as far as that goes. I'm wondering a little well........ I'll hold that thought til others catch up. No rush .

Thanks again Joey for your insight!

@33- I had not realized that was a gay bar that husband and policeman went to! I'll to go read backwards again! What a book!

Dee. what makes you think it is a gay bar that the husband and policeman went to? I've re-read the section and I don't see it. The bar has " lots of couples with their heads close together,the men with beers in front of them, the women mostly with glasses of coke. "

Later on in chapter 33,

" Are you married" the husband asked.

" No, I'm in a relationship though. With another officer."

And then they go on chatting about affairs etc. I don' understand anything gay about that bar. Maybe you can let me know what seemed gay to you.Not a big deal , but I just wondered. It was weird when later on the officer asked the husband if he wanted to go to the disco?

I took the relationship that the officer was in to be with a female officer.

Bitterballen - that is what they eat together - at first I thought that has some significance - but now not - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitterballen

I've got a lot more to say / ask but I'll wait til Nancy catches up. I've got piles of questions.

Great link to Bakkers's blog - thanks for that, Monica and Carsten.

Hi, everyone, what great discussion! I'm far behind, and tonight cannot be a reading night. But I'll catch up eventually!

Monica, I think I can hear the difference between Dutch and German, though I cannot guarantee that. The Dutch sounds like a softer more muscial language, whereas German is more full of " stops and harder sounds - kind of like the Ach's and more perhaps gutteral stops. I'm no language expert!

One of my best friends growing up had a mom from Germany who never lost her accent. She said "Ach , child " and "ach " many times! It was usually an expression of distaste or like a shake of the head. Interestingly I had a scottish teacher in Grade 4 or so, and she said " och" or " ach" just as much in the classroom for the same reasons - Like -Ach Kathy! to someone she disapproved of. Every now and then I find myself saying ach no!
Thanks for the link!

Talking about the style of writing I'm not sure how Bakker does it, but he's very good at creating a special atmosphere, mood, feeling. It's quite unique, while the writing style seems so natural and simple.

Just take ch 25. The swim naked in the mountains. He's creating a special feeling of standstill, an aching feeling, difficult to describe but it's unique.

The uncle pops into her mind again, his inability to move in the pond in his suicide attempt...and her lying still, almost unmovable in the water, we have Dickinson again brooding with her poems of TIME, ETERNITY, LOVE....

It's achingly beautiful......

Is she contemplating suicide....and slowly realises the possibility....

One reviewer on the Bakker blog writes: "That's one of the secrets of Bakkers style. he lets the reader know more than the main character, he shows their actions and thoughts, But you are the one who understands them".

Two quick thoughts:

1. Time is something that keeps returning. The clock, not knowing the time, the TIME of Dickinsons poems, the exact time of the arrival of Rhys etc......

2. Detour: Also in connection with finding the way in the mountains, getting lost, making a detour to the baker etc.

42: Deb, I just re-read the passage with the husband and policeman. It might not have been a gay bar but the policeman is definitely gay.

'Have you ever....Do you ever have someone else?' The policeman looked him straight in the eye. 'Why do you ask?'

'Just curious. Man talk, you know?'

'That's a disappointment. So you had girlfriends?'

'A girlfriend. Just one. But she did it too.'

'What's the big deal. You lot always make it so difficult.'

'Yeah, maybe. Women are different from men.'

'No, they're not. How?'

'When they're unfaithful, there has to be an underlying problem.'

In this conversation, I assumed 'you lot' referred to heterosexuals as the husband agrees that with 'his lot', affairs are more difficult and indicates this is because women are involved! Also, the policeman is disappointed when the husband says his question about the policeman seeing other people was just asked out of curiosity (therefore not a pick-up)!

The point that I thought they were in a gay bar was when the husband says:

'Is the barman one too?'

'Yep'

'Hmm'

Admittedly that does not make it a gay bar but I am sure the first conversation was between a gay guy and a straight guy!

45: I think you have summed up the beauty in Bakker's writing really well there, Carsten. That blogger you quote is also spot on!

I have finished the book but don't want to say anything which might give the ending away. Maybe we could create another spoiler thread for when we've completed the book. Do others agree?

Cartsen, I think you say it perfectly with "achingly beautiful" to describe Bakker. I'm on board with that. Dee, interesting exchange re hetero/gay sexuality. Sexuality was a strong theme in The Twin, too.

I think it's a good idea to create another spoiler thread for when we've completed the book. "Ach," Deb, would you be so kind?

Ach, Nancy. I'll create another spoiler thread for those of use who have complete the book later on in the day . I am finished the novel. I've got plenty of questions/ observations. :)
Time is ticking.
April 18

Ach, I will create it now! :)

Okay - The Detour - Finished Novel Discussion thread is on wiki thead - beside the spoiler thread link - that's just how it went?

here is the link

http://www.librarything.com/topic/136036#

Go ahead - I'll be in later. :)

Ach - Silly girls - ach

Made a mistake in what I wrote there. I thought the wiki threads had disappeared somehow. Good thing I checked twice!!!!

Okay, must walk that dog - later I'll be into write on the Finished the novel Thread discussion.