To Defund Obamacare

Like I said in Poetry Fool I was inspired to write this poem from the Dr. Seuss poem Green Eggs and Ham.
I'll have to finish it at another time.

To Defund Obamacare

President Obama and the House Democrats say
they will not defund Obamacare in a tree house,
with a mouse, or in a nest with a Grouse. They will
not defund Obamacare on Fox News, or listening
to the smooth sound of Jazz Blues.

The Democrats always think they know what
is best for the rest of us.They do not want the Republicans and Tea Party to ruin their day.
The Democrats plan to play the Blame Game
and say a Government shutdown is the
Republican's and Tea Party's fault.

The Democrats will nort sign a deal to
defund Obamacare in a Bank Vault or over
a Gourmet Meal seasoned with salt. The
Democrats think they know what is best for
the rest of us. The Democrats wantthis drama
to unfold and hurt the the people whether
they want it or not and they want the Republicans
and Tea Party to cave into their unfair demands
and think its best if they ram Obamacare down
our throats then President Obama and the
Senate Democrats willuse the Republicans and
Tea Party as scape goats then they will all gloat
and brag about how in theend they got their way.
The Democrats are not our friends

All Obama, Reid and Pelosi ever do is try to scare
the Public to get their evil ways. Only the
Republicans and Tea Party can save the day.
The Democrats are a mean machine and love to
play their Dirty Tricks Book and break all the rules. While they sneer and give the Republicans and
Tea Party nasty looks. President Obama thinks
he's so cool..

If the Federal Govenment shuts down Obama and
the Democrats will not wear a frown because Barack
Obama wants to wear a King's Crown so he can do
most anything. Barack Obama loves the Power and
is sullen and dour that he can not run for a third term.

I will not, can not agree to defund Obamacare in a
Caboose, with a Moose, a loose Goose or Zeus
on Mount Olympus nor in the air, at a Medieval
Faire, on a Triple Dog Dare, or over a Medium
Rare Steak.

The Democrats will not, can not negotiate in
a Log Cabin in the Woods, on a Cornwall Bog,
London Fog, in Fenway Park in the dark or where
X Marks the Spot. President Obama say he will not, can not meet them here, there or anywhere. Obama
I am. I will never agree to defund Obamacare today, tomorrow or onany other day. For good or bad Obamacare is here to stay.

It is something that just won't go away. I do
not care what the American People, Polls or Fox
News say. I am The Chosen One and I will have my
own way. The American People spoke and elected
me to two Presidential Terms. If I could I would run
for three, four or possibly even more. I am not
content with being a two-term President. I long to
be King of the brand new United Socialist States of America, (USSA).

And everyone will Sing songs and Praises about
the Socialist Policies that I bring. Love me, Like me
or Hate me I do not care. In the end you all will
bow down to The Chosen One so you better beware.
You will all see that many books and movies will
be made about me, Barack Obama the Great. It
is your fate to be ruled by me. Because right or
wrong there will not be a Democracy anymore.

That will be my very first Decree as King. I will not,
can not meet them in a Wicker Tree, a Cruise Ship
on the Sea, next to a Bee HIve, a Live Rolling Stones
or THE WHO Rock Concert, at Stonehenge, on a
Drinking Binge, at the National Zoo, with Scooby-Doo
and the Mystery Machine Crew, while we watch Xanadu
on a large TV Screen with a Room With a View, on the
Road with Mr. Toad, at Hogwarts, at a Pub throwing
darts, Racing Go-Karts, at KMart, the National Gallery
of Art, on Halloween, making a Hollywood scene, in
Blue Jeans, on a John Deere green Tractor, The O'Reilly Factor, flying in a UFO, with friends you know, watching
your favourite TV Show, with hearts all aglow, the Movie
The Crow, in a Tow Truck, going with the flow, or even
over Hot Cocoa or watching the snow fall gently down
quietly like tiny gossamer fairy wings on the sidewalks, grass and streets

I will not, can not meet them here, there or anywhere.
I will not can not delay or defund Obamacare on an
Aircraft Carrier or Submarine Fleet, a friendly bar, in
a Galaxy Far, Far Away, on this or any other day. It
is important to me that I always win. I must never
give in or surrender to the Republicans and Tea Party.

The Republicans and Tea Party are not my friends. I
can only depend on myself to get what I need. The
Republicans and Tea Pary can beg and plead until
Hell freezes over and then I will still do as I Please.

I will not, can not negoitate with them on a whim,
in the gym, while we swim, out on a tree limb, on
a Diesel train hauling freight, having a Fortune Teller
read our fates, with Veronica and Betty on a double
date, over a crate of Florida oranges, while we ice
skate at a rink, playing the card game Aces 'n Eights,
as we sip drinks with umbrellas in them, returning
late over due books to the library, a coffee cup filled
to the brim, reading the Brothers Grimm book of Fairy
Tales, over a plate of spaghetti, in the Serengetti,
chasing after the Yeti, diving at the Great Barrier Reef,
having lunch at the WaerGate Hotel, at a Kansas City
Chiefs football game,. during a Quidditch Match, while we watch a Dragon's egg hatch.

I will not, can not meet them here, there, or anywhere.
Obama I am. The Democrats must not take the blame.
I am The Chosen One how dare they try to delay or
defund Obamacare. In the end I must win because I
hate to lose. It seems like there is no end in sight to
the Democarats Tax and Spend attitude to run the
Government. This Country was never meant to be run
by someone who sees himself as a Dictator or King.

Obama I am. I will not can not negotiate in the Outback
Steak House, over Toll House Baked Cookies, with a
Wookie, on a Spaceship to the Moon, Jupiter, Saturn or Mars or some far off distant Galaxies many light years
away. No one can ever sway my mind once it has been made up, over real cute Maltese Pups, drinking lemonade or gin from paper cups, in a Roller Coaster's
ups and downs, besdie a four slice toaster, dressing
up as a clown, at Myrtle Beach, to each their own, earning a Degree to Teach, to reach for the stars,
eating Mars candy bars in Classic Muscle Cars, yearning
to get par in golf, under an old shade tree. Completing
the Sunday New York Times Crossword Puzzle, putting
a muzzle on the left-wing liberal news media, buying
the Encyclopedia Brittannica on CDs, while we're tyring on some new shoes, watching Fox News, while we listen to Janis Joplin sing the Blues.

I am The Chosen One and I will not rest until the
Republicans and Tea Party have given in since I
know what is best for everyone. I will not, can not
meet them at Starbucks for coffee, over a bag of
English Toffee, in a Jeep, a Castle's Keep, with a
Shepherd's flock of sheep, on a leap day, a steep mountain climb, a heap of gold, silver, precious
gems and Thror's Arkenstone on the ground,
over a cheap fast food meal, or om London's
Eye in the Sky Ferris Wheel

I will not, can not meet them here, there or anywhere.
Obama I am. I am The Chosen One amd I must stay
true to my Left-Wing Socialist Ideology. And I don't
care what kind of Bill the Republicans and Tea Party
bring before me to delay or defund Obamacare. I
choose to refuse to sign it unless I get my way 100%.

President Obama and the Democrats bully others
to always get their own. Because they say it's their way or the highway. You can trust me that I mean what I say the Republican Party must cease to
exist then the Democrats can rule the brand new United Socialist States of America now and forever. whoever doesn't believe me is a great big fool.

When I become King my word shall be the law,
to think anything else is totally absurd. When I
first came on the scene I was treated like a God
or Rock Super Star. The RIgh Wing Conservative
Media can not hide the fact that I am still adored
far and wide except for Fox News. Fair and Balanced
they may be but they will not loe me.

I am The Chosen One and I ran on hop and change.
I have a great big ego which is why I must always
get my own way. Obama I am. I will not, can not
greet them as friends on the street, in a Wicker Man,
a Butcher's selling meat, a construction site with plans
for a brand new Spa Retreat in the country.

Beatles1964

> 1

Green eggs and ham.

Pretty much.

Obamacare's "greatest mistake" is to depend on insurance companies, i. e., "the magic of the marketplace"; we should have a single payer as per Canada and to hell with the insurance companies.

But I realize that was not "doable" in 2010 or now for that matter so we will struggle with what we have...

Entirely right, Mr. Welch

I read an article last week saying that the reason the Republicans have battled so hard to defund the ACA is that when people start to benefit from the reduced costs and increased benefits, the Republican will lose elections as they have been so vocal in opposition. This makes sense as, if the Republicans really saw it as something that was horrible and bad for everyone, then they'd be happy to see it enacted and to reap the rewards as the party that opposed terrible legislation.

That's pretty bad poetry.

I still contend that the ACA is a step towards a single payer system. The numbers do not work out. Unless profit for illness is taken out of the system, it will continue to fail. ACA is trying to address the crisis that is over 40 some million people in this country without any healthcare coverage at all. It does not address most of the abuses within the system.
Insurance companies are not totally to blame.
TRUE :

My sister works for Aurora Health Care. Human Resource Specialist. She is a cancer survivor. She has had a reoccurrence of cancer four times so she sees an oncologist every six months. Prior to her office visit she has a blood draw....same tests every time. The doctor wants the results prior to seeing her so she usually goes a week ahead. This past time....she forgot. The day before she remembered, she dashed out of her office and around the corner to the cancer care area at her clinic. The lab was upstairs....this was faster, on ground level and only a few feet from her office. She got the bill. What is normally a $125 dollar charge was over a thousand dollars. Why ? Cause the square feet of the clinic she had the draw done in has been redefined, redistricted if you will, to be considered "hospital". Same lab tech did her draw, same building, same machines read the tests.....

Another little clinic move is to buy land.....yep, use up the profits. Buy land and slap up a sign...."Future home of...." or just a sign. I pass one every time I go to town. A nice corner lot that used to be a ranch for handi capped kids. Big sign "Curative" (one of the bigger medical clinics in the area) set on the corner. Been that way for years at least 15 yrs if not more...the barn is falling down, the weeds are waist high. Patient/insurance dollars one can view anytime they so choose.

This is rampart in the system. The ACA will not fix this mess. But it may crash and burn leaving more than half the country uninsured which would make a single payer look pretty good.

Greed and Healthcare are not a good mix.

I'm hoping the Republicans are "right" -- that yes Obamacare IS "a step toward" socialized medicine.

Greed is intrinsic to humans it seems but then so is "care"?...

To the original poster..... your logic is on par with your writing skills.

I still contend that the ACA is a step towards a single payer system. The numbers do not work out

In a certain sense, though, this is true of insurance in general. The system is predicated on pooling risks and costs (and paying for the cost of the system itself.) That's an inherently net-negative or expensive proposition.

I still haven't finished copying down the rest of the poem. Like I said earlier, I think it's real cute and witty poem showing off my originality quirky sense-of-humour and And it's one of the best ones I've written in a while.

Beatles1964

People are loosing their health insurance in droves, others are seeing extreme rises in mo. premiums, deductibles are rising, co-payments are rising, people are loosing their jobs or their hours are being cut, Medicare has lost between 500 - 700 billion dollars.... The final analysis until this thing is fixed is that the middle class is struggling with a terribly planed and executed law. As usual, those unintended consequences are wrecking havoc on the middle class and our economy! Its time everyone fessed up and agreed that this thing called Obamacare/ACA is in dire need of a complete revamp and redo!! Come on government; both Dems & Reps get your act together and start being statesmen like our founding fathers! You are scaring Americans; especially the elderly.

I am curious as to how Medicare is loosing (sic) money. It is not a money making venture, never was.

Granted, the ACA requires more than a few fixes. After all, it was a conservative idea from the get go, and has all the inherent flaws of a private, for profit insurance.

I understand that this is not the place for such discussions but... anyone who thinks we can fix, revamp, remodel, or even 'deal with it' needs to see a psychiatrist. There is no way our economy can support such cost, no way our health care will continue to be the envy of the world, no way seniors will continue to have high quality care, and no way you and I as common Americans will be able to afford other care if the ACA stands. As was stated above... the numbers don't work out. There is a real reason that premiums are going up drastically and it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. There are many who are advocating for a single-payer system... the government has done real well with the bankrupt SS system, hasn't it? And we want to give them any control over our health care decisions? Again, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that is is an ill-planned and plainly stupid idea.

If SS is bankrupt why do we keep borrowing from it to pay off debts from the Iraq war?

Social Security is a pay-as-you-go income transfer. It cannot go bankrupt. The so-called trust fund is the result of a regressive tax (SS tax increase) passed to help balance the regular budget after more progressive income taxes were cut in the 1980s.

> 13 Keep your head in the sand and you will understand what bad effect this law will have on Americans. Medicare is loosing money, because the ACA is siphoning away 500 -700 Billions of dollars in a redistribution scheme to take paid for benefits from seniors to finance the Obamacare program. If you can't understand these known and acknowledged facts, then, I'm not sure what you are discussing. Medicare is not an entitlement, it was earned and paid for by WORKING honest Americans! Because of the reduced Medicare dollars, Medicare is already cutting its reimbursements to doctors and hospitals for Medicare patients. Doctors are quitting ( my personal physician has already quit the medical profession because of Obamacare ) and hospitals are laying off many workers because of these reduced reimbursements. Obamacare supporters be it on your heads for the already coming decline in healthcare for our senior citizens. You are throwing grandma and grandpa under the bus!

no way our health care will continue to be the envy of the world,

Umm. You might want to rethink that.

loose = not tight
lose = misplace

I'm sure the whole world envies our healthcare system in which a broken bone can cause you to go bankrupt, because even though you work FULL TIME, your employer doesn't offer health insurance. Or because the fact that you've had a C-section can be considered a pre-existing condition for which you can be denied insurance.

I wish we had video cameras 200+ years ago so that we could see/listen to the arguments made against the concept of free public schooling. We can all see the benefits of that system today simply because it's been in place for so long; whether it be schools or roads or parks or libraries, we can all see (and have benefitted from) all of these things at one time or another.

My guess is that's how people will look at ACA 50 years down the road: once this issue no longer belongs to anyone politically, most people will come to realize that it really was created for the greater good.

17 how about some attribution? I bet you cannot provide it, apart from Fox News. Or did you loose your sources? (And I bet they are very loose sources.)

"> 13 Keep your head in the sand and you will understand what bad effect this law will have on Americans. Medicare is loosing money, because the ACA is siphoning away 500 -700 Billions of dollars in a redistribution scheme to take paid for benefits from seniors to finance the Obamacare program. If you can't understand these known and acknowledged facts, then, I'm not sure what you are discussing. Medicare is not an entitlement, it was earned and paid for by WORKING honest Americans! Because of the reduced Medicare dollars, Medicare is already cutting its reimbursements to doctors and hospitals for Medicare patients. Doctors are quitting ( my personal physician has already quit the medical profession because of Obamacare ) and hospitals are laying off many workers because of these reduced reimbursements. Obamacare supporters be it on your heads for the already coming decline in healthcare for our senior citizens. You are throwing grandma and grandpa under the bus!"

Did you not read the replies last time you posted this nonsense ? Did you read the links posted ? Who is telling you this ? Where is your information coming from ?
What is it about the answers and links posted to your first assertion (exactly the same as this one....I think it included "honest Americans" (as opposed to the liars who need healthcare coverage) "grandma and grandpa" and a "bus") that you do NOT understand. Your statements are far from honest and insightful.

(thoughts based on a different post.....critical thinking and logic ? Sorely missing.....parrot like behaviors ? running rampart. Should we reach across this aisle AGAIN ? When does the reaching hand get too exhausted to hold out ?)

Everyone, even NBC and CBS are now reporting on obamacare issues and problems. It now appears according to four NBC sources this morning that Obama and his administration were well aware that millions would be loosing their health coverage due to Obamacare in early 2010. Yet they have continued to tell falsehoods about this terribly written law. Then after the fact the govt. health care people have continued to write regulations that are hurting Americans. Open your eyes and look at all sources of information, because now it seems many news outlets are no longer protecting the administration and beginning to let out the hidden information about Obamacare. I'm deeply concerned about my earned future health insurance coverage and as this fiasco is hitting everyone's personal situation things are really beginning to unravel. Folks its now time for people to work together and not behind closed doors. Americans are tired of both sides of politics and want good honest government. I say throw them all out and lets get some new and smarter people to run our government! Our founding fathers would have never let this happen to citizens! People its time to go to work; how about our leaders helping to get people back to work with proper employer benefit packages! During the depression a great Democratic president gave us Social Security and people like my father received assistance through the WPA. These programs required a key element in getting help and that was WORK. My father worked for $ 1.00 per day and then sent part of his pay home to help support his family. He had to do very hard and difficult work for very little pay, but, he WORKED for his pay and assistance. I agree everyone needs health care but they need to work for it if they aren't absolutely disabled! No more free rides for those not wanting to work. Help people to get jobs that pay a living wage!

>24 JaneAustenNut: Our founding fathers would have never let this happen to citizens!

Our founding fathers would not have allowed you to have a say in the matter.

I'm with most others here in thinking that the ACA, while deeply flawed, is the first step towards a single-payer system, since once folks have a chance at healthcare, they won't give it up. It's a first step towards a more ethical and civilized society.

In the meantime, I'm profoundly grateful for it, on behalf of my cousin who, having suffered from brain cancer as a child, has worked her tail off and is a perfectly responsible working citizen of this country who put herself through school, and is working her way though grad school and nevertheless has always been denied coverage on account of her "pre-existing condition." It's unconscionable.

>24 JaneAustenNut:
I couldn't get insurance....I've worked my entire life....till a forced retirement. I had the audacity to get cancer in my early 40s.....I had to marry someone to insure me....couldn't get full time work, too sick.

Do not blanket our failing healthcare system as a product of lazy people who do not want to work. Sounds rather narrow minded.
Obama care hasn't even been fully in effect for an entire month. Most anything said now by anyone is merely speculation.

"I agree everyone needs health care but they need to work for it if they aren't absolutely disabled! No more free rides for those not wanting to work. "

PLEASE ! Our current healthcare system is so corrupt it may as well be called "The Bend Over and Take It" healthcare system. There is simply no way to reconcile "greed" and "personal" healthcare. Has nothing to do with being lazy. I take personal exception to this because when I was working...working AND sick, I was told that I did not belong in the system. "YOU ARE UNINSURABLE" this I was told. I was looked in the eye and advised that I was not acceptable. I got married AND worked for many years after that as I like to pull my own weight, in fact, it could be said, I enjoy being independent and sometimes resent the fact that, the healthcare system, in the country I call home, made it impossible for me to "pay my way".

Our medical system out priced and/or disenfranchised many "hard working honest American's."

Who ever wants to TRY something....kudos to them. Anything....is better than sitting around thinking we have the BEST system in the world. We do NOT. Any one who opposes any attempt for change better approach me with an alternate plan or not say anything at all ! " Working" for insurance is not an alternate plan.

" proper employer benefit packages"

You have no idea what you are talking about. An insurance company for a small business, could drop the entire group if one person gets sick. They can also raise the rates so high that nobody can afford the premiums, hence one's health can become an issue as to getting hired or not. (if you are wondering why the number of people on disability is so high...this may be part of the problem OR...they did not have an offer such as I received...no body to marry them)
Let us all hold hands and HOPE that the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies, the hospital and clinic CEOs see beyond profit margin and year end bonus packages........yeah...that will work really well.

Sincerely...you do not know what you are talking about. Not at all.

A rant...I know....HATE it when people talk about the existing health care system in logical terms....there is nothing humane about our current system.

In many cases, a bad system is still better than no system at all.

One: we, as a country and as a society, WILL be paying for the illnesses of the poor. This is a fact. HOW we choose to pay is still under our control.

Is the ACA the best possible plan? Almost certainly not. Is it better than what existed before? That's the real question. I tend to think yes.

ACA is an "attempt".....better than sitting around "hoping" for change or shaming the sick cause they are "costing" hard working citizens.

24> Everyone, even NBC and CBS are now reporting on obamacare issues and problems. It now appears according to four NBC sources this morning that Obama and his administration were well aware that millions would be loosing their health coverage due to Obamacare in early 2010.

Please, one falsehood at a time. Do you think if you throw enough of the at a time a few might break through?

First sentence. Yes the ACA Federal Website is having problems. The history of gov't software projects has never been good, probably because it went to the lowest bidder. But that doesn't really affect the ACA itself, unless it scares off the healthy people who need to be enrolled in order to balance out the sick people who cannot be denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions anymore. We'll have to see how that shakes out.

Second sentence. The ACA mandates that all policies must meet certain minimum standards and policies that don't will be replaced. This has been known since the beginning so I don't know why its a surprise now. The people who had such poor policies that they couldn't meet the minimum standards probably had those policies because they couldn't afford the good ones, which means that they are probably eligible for subsidies in the new exchange so they're more than likely will be better off under the new system.

I am assuming that there will be little or no response from poster #24. Until sometime in the future....weeks or months down the line and it will not be a response, it will be a repeat of post #24.

Hands across the aisle indeed. How does one deal with willful ignorance ? My patience is getting shorter. This issue in particular. WHERE do these people live ? How are they so fortunate as to not know anyone who, through no fault of their own, has struggled with health insurance/health care issues ? A struggle due to the fact that our system is corrupt ? The best in the world ! Really ? Whose world would that be ?

My sister has had repeat cancer four times.....she has worked full time through all of her treatments. She is single and she dare not lose her health insurance. She has been taken from her office to an emergency room due to dehydration. Has spent her days at work traveling a well worn path from desk to bathroom. Her job, in healthcare, is horribly stressful. She has been advised to retire early as she may get sick again. She is 61 yrs old. This is impossible for her. Maybe now she can ? When it all shakes out, she just might be able to afford to retire. Her premiums may be within what she can afford on her pension and SS. I hope so....I don't want to lose my sister. If what we had before ACA is the best we can do.....it is shameful.

People who parrot the talking points do not have a clue what they are saying or how it sounds to those who have struggled with the lousy system we have in place. I will allow that....but then LISTEN....READ the links provided.....THINK for yourself and please ,please, please, do not repeat the boneheads who will say or do anything to obstruct....they are PAID to spew garbage, but no body has to repeat it.

I do believe that their are some heads firmly planted in the sand but it wouldn't be the heads of those who look at the ACA as a starting point.....

Well #6 everyone is entitled to their own opinion and mine doesn't agree with yours. I happen to think it's very witty, cute and shows my sense of humor and originality. You know part of the blame for the Government Shutdown was THE fault of Obama and the Democarats:

1. Obama closed the National Parks and put Armed Forest Rangers in front of Old Faithful. People had to
go to the second floor just to see Old Faithful erupt.

2. Obama himself has said in the past that he's trying
to get rid of the GOP so that only the Democratic Party is THE only Political Party around.

3. People planned saved money for years to come to this Country for a Vacation to see the National Parks and does Obama do?? He Closes the National Parks and has the Rangers tell people they have to leave.

4. The Democrats Closed the WWII Open Air Memorials so that people especially the WWII Vets themselves couldn't get in to the Memorial that was dedicated to the Sacrifices The Greatest Generation made during WWII. Barricades had been put up to keep people out from entering them. Didn't you see it on the News???
And it wasn't only on just Fox News.

5. The Democrats were trying real hard to make it as tough on the Republicans so they'd Cave in and Obama would get everything he wants without having to negotiate anything with the Republicans.

6. Harry Reid repeatedly wouldn't even bother to look at ANYTHING the Republicans offered to them, That's what the message of my poem To Defund Obamacare is all about. Obama kept on saying he wanted the Republicans to give them everything and then maybe he'll talk with them. Maybe.

7. Like I've been saying from the very beginning I was inspired by the Dr. Seuss poem Green Eggs and Ham. Then the words just started coming to me. As I child I loved to read Dr. Seuss books, Green Eggs and Ham, Hop On Pop, The Cat in the Hat, Horton Hears a Who, One Fish Two Fish Red FIsh Blue Fish alon with the rest of the Dr. Seuss books. I still have all of my Dr. Seuss books.

Beatles1964

^ Oh my word, you are completely delusional.

I won't bother asking for a credible source for each of your ludicrous claims. Show me a link to a credible source for just this one: "2. Obama himself has said in the past that he's trying to get rid of the GOP so that only the Democratic Party is THE only Political Party around."

Seriously. Show me that link from a CREDIBLE source. Not some blog, but a known, established news source (does not have to be American) that quotes President Obama as saying that.

Oh, and parks and memorials? They are non-essential and by definition HAD TO BE SHUT DOWN during a government shutdown.

1. Obama closed the National Parks and put Armed Forest Rangers in front of Old Faithful. People had to
go to the second floor just to see Old Faithful erupt.

What part of shutting down the gov't don't you understand? Why should the National Parks be open when kids are being shut out of Head Start pre-school programs?

For me, the real offense was declaring certain workers 'essential'... but still not paying them during the shutdown.

Retroactive pay doesn't cut it. Bills come due and need to be paid, or late fees are assessed. Was any provision made to re-pay those 'essential' workers for those extra fees?

They were 'essential'; but it wasn't essential to keep paying them. So, by mercantile standards, those 'essential' workers were worthless.

Yet, that is how shutdowns work. Congress did not give the executive any authority to pay them so they could not be paid. I'm not sure where the authority to require them to keep on working when they're not being paid comes from though.

"Do it or we'll fire you." In short, force.

Given that the administration has no choice about paying them, would you rather they just tell the Capitol police, the FBI, and everyone in the armed forces to just go home until the shutdown is over?

> #33, #34, #35
Come on guys...reeeeeeeeeach across that aisle. Lets accept the delusional so as to get something done. Get that hand out there and make those who make up their own reality feel more comfortable within their space.
It is apparent that any thing can and will be said....if repeated enough...it becomes a reality in the heads of those who long to see the tail end of the black man in office. Some Senators can not stand to "look at him" others don't want to stand too close cause touching him would be like touching a "tar baby".
He is to blame ! For what ? Well....well.....Ummmmmm.....EVERYTHING.....everything bad is because of THAT man in office. He hates America and our Vets...and our national parks apparently. People can not see a geyser when they want to see a geyser.....what kind of Nigerian huckster visits this kind of torture on fellow countrymen ?

What does anyone expect when these statements are coming from our supposed leaders ?

>31 beatles1964:
By the way Green Eggs and Ham was about something that wasn't liked....was not going to be tried ...... was too horrible to contemplate, until it was tried. The lesson behind the book was completely overlooked by Mr Cruz....but then he is one of those who resides within his own form of reality. He is a hero in his own mind.

Green Eggs and Ham is a lesson on not judging something without giving it a chance. ACA anyone ? Is three weeks a chance ? Poor ol Ted Cruz thinks Green Eggs and Ham is all about opposition and maintaining that opposition.
I see Dr. Seuss spinning in his grave.

Not that it matters much but Obama did not write the protocol for what is closed first during a government shut down....were you aware of this ? Or did you think he made a list to piss everyone off....like maybe in his spare time ? He sat down and thought it all out ? I will piss off veterans first....then move on to vacationers ? Something along those lines ? Geez.

Short fuse for stupid today !

#38

Why, yes. I think that the reality of not having any domestic or foreign protection against enemies would wonderfully concentrate the minds of Congress, and perhaps avoid such funding issues in the future.

After all, would we tolerate a private company undergoing financial difficulties telling its employees 'We need you to come to work, and maybe we'll pay you for your time at some future date?'

Remember the issue is still mainly the failing Obamacare plan; lets get together as a nation and fix it, don't destroy it .... just come up with some better ideas and fix this mess!! I am deeply concerned about the future of our country! No more lies from politicians on both sides of the isle; what we need is honest elected officials that aren't primarily concerned about their careers and making more money from the government trough. Have you ever heard of a poor politician. Make all politicians go on the Obamacare plan and not get their great almost free federal government health benefits. Have Congress and The Administration all be on the Obama plan! Oh, I forgot Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Boehner and all the rest have gotten rich off tax payer dollars and have enough money to not even need medical insurance!

Time to clean house and have term limits; no more 20 to 30 year career politicians.

Make all politicians go on the Obamacare plan and not get their great almost free federal government health benefits. Have Congress and The Administration all be on the Obama plan!

This is all I hear whenever I click on Fox News by accident but it doesn't make any sense. Congressmen and their aides *are* on the Obamacare plan just as much as any person working for an employee with a health care plan is. My employer pays for part of my health insurance and I don't have to get private insurance through the exchanges and it's the same way for Congress.

What this really is if you think about it is a sneaky way to cut people's pay without saying that you're cutting their pay.

Why don't I hear any Democrats countering the lies from Fox News?

>41 JaneAustenNut: "Remember the issue is still mainly the failing Obamacare plan;"

It just started.....three weeks ago. What has failed thus far ? What mess are you talking about ? Are people dying in the streets or something ? Is there something I don't know about ?

(Do not confuse computer problems with the ACA plan....not the same....big computer programs encounter big issues, this is why many big businesses have IT departments, simply to handle problems.)

Members of Congress do have to buy into the new healthcare system.

Nobody is rich enough, in this great country of ours, to no have health insurance. If you believe this, you are not paying any attention to what has been happening in healthcare for the past couple of decades. One can fly to India, where you will be put up in a resort for a couple months, have your knee replaced and get all the therapy you need for far less than a three day stay in your local hospital having the same procedure. I believe it can be done in Thailand as well. Not sure but the cost was less than half. Airline tickets and all....they will arrange it for you.

"no more 20 to 30 year career politicians."

The only thing that has made sense in these posts thus far.

>42 jjwilson61:

I don't know.

maybe cause it's redundant ? exhausting ? mind numbing ? soul destroying ?

31>

You know how the GOP insisted on seeing Obama's birth certificate? That's pretty much how I feel about your high school diploma.

"Everybody gets dead" said John Wayne as "Hondo" in the movie of the same name directed by John Farrow, Mia's dad.

So to:

"Everybody gets sick"

and

"Everybody gets old," the James Dean "exception" duly noted wherein "live live live 'til you die"?...

#35: Retroactive pay doesn't cut it. Bills come due and need to be paid, or late fees are assessed. Was any provision made to re-pay those 'essential' workers for those extra fees?

It should have been, but I don't see how any of that differs between employees that worked and those that didn't; it's not like it's that easy to find temporary labor when you're out of a short, indefinite period of time.

#37: Really? I would have taken you for more of an employment at will person, where a business can fire someone for any reason or none, not saying firing = force.

#40: After all, would we tolerate a private company undergoing financial difficulties telling its employees 'We need you to come to work, and maybe we'll pay you for your time at some future date?'

Paying your employees in stock is hardly unheard of, and I've seen several offers for a programmer or artist to help people create this great game, and everyone will get their cut after it's done.

The exact equivalent is illegal I believe. The company would have to let the employees go and they would be out of a job. I suspect, in a parallel situation, that where the paycheck was delayed but the corporation was absolutely positive for it, that many employees would work it and take the money.

To your last paragraph: exactly. A private company that told its workers, 'come to work without pay, or you'll be fired' would be in trouble. So, why is this okay when the government does it?

If a employee (for whatever inducement) choses to work without pay, that's quite different. If an employee accepts stock, or vague promises that producing 'x' will be highly profitable, then it's an agreement between the two. (In many cases, it may be a stupid agreement for the employee to make; but it's their choice.)

If the government had said 'If you come to work during the shutdown, we'll pay you for your time (if we can) in the future, and if you don't work, you won't get paid at that hypothetical future date'... then again, it would have been a choice by the workers. And probably most of them would have worked, since some chance of payment is better than zero chance of payment.

But that choice wasn't offered, was it? And if the government simply told the employees after the shutdown ended, 'sorry, but we aren't authorized to give you pay for the time we were shutdown' it's not like the workers can take their time back, now is it?

Yes, companies can fire people at any time, for any reason or no reason at all. But then, those employees aren't essential, because if they were, you couldn't fire them. So, which is it? If the workers were 'essential', then the threat to fire them was hollow. But I doubt they were THAT essential, so they could be fired. So, they weren't essential, and so forcing them to work without pay was wrong.

I'm poking fun at Obama's arrogance and his unwillingness to meet with the Republicans
during the Government Fulough. When Barack
Obama was Campaigning in 2008 he called himself, The Chosen One during one of his Speeches. It wasn't Fox News, Rush Limbaugh or anyother Right Wing Conservative that called him The Chosen One in the beginning.

Beatles1964

Obama is "the messiah"?

At last!...

That charge of arrogance from the right is laughable.

Point!...

> 49

I love the Beatles.

Why are they being so insulted?

Are the Beatles "right wing"? Well not John eh...

Give us a link to the speech, and we'll see if he called himself "the Chosen One" or if he perhaps said something like "now that I have been chosen to run in the primary...."

You must realize by now, beatles1964, that nobody here is likely to believe anything you post unless you include a link to a verifiable source.

^

I've listened to many, many of Obama's speeches, press conferences and one-on-one sit-down interviews. And I have perused his two books.

It could all be a ruse - how do we know? - but it seems to me, for a successful politician, Obama comes off as any thing but an egotistical- it's all about me- I'm the smartest guy in the room - sort of guy. If anything, it is the opposite. I think that is why he is so successful.

He seems to have the opposite type of persona and personality than that which Chris Christie presents to the world a majority of the time. Apparently a majority of Americans seem cool with that.

If Obama is in some way a bad guy then OK. But pretty much every serious criticism I have seen of him so far is either made up out of whole cloth or is some insane exaggeration or purposeful misinterpretation, politically based, of something Obama may have said.

If anything Obama is too much of a compromiser and a person who "seeks common ground". I think that is the biggest criticism many if not most have of him. But a person could have worse character flaws. E.g., Mitt Romney. And several hundred other republican politicians I could name.

A Beatles fan can be a right winger -- or a troll too for that matter hmm.

EVERY politician says something he/she regrets; I recently quoted from a new book wherein Obama is to have said "I'm good at killing people" which may well be true in the droneish sense but is also in the category of Ronald Reagan's famous joke "We bomb in five minutes," i. e., "bomb" the former Soviets, when doing a voice check for his Saturday morning radio broadcast.

To, say, Rick Harsch (and others) Obama is a "bad guy" from the left while a "bad guy" from the right apparently as per this "beatles" guy; I simply say that Obama's "better" than the alternatives and has "moved" the nation a bit more to "left of center" but remember -- no one gets elected prez who doesn't remain as close to that "center" as is the current zeitgeist eh...

Sure, war criminal and all that, I stand by it all, but unfortunately, yes, better than the other guy both times. I don't expect ALL of you to leave the country.

"Nobody's perfeck"...

You can look it up for yourself. No, I wouldn't call him thr Messiah though with his arrogance it wouldn't surprize me if he thought of himself as the Messaih.
Personally, You should probably Google the Chosen One Speech and see what you get. I surely don't think of him as the Messiah.

He has a bunch of broken Promises he never lived up to:

He would balance the budget by the end of his firsty term.

He would close Gitmo

He would have the most transparent administration in Presidential History

He would find out what really happened in Benghazi on the 11th anniversary of 9/11

He would reach out between the aisles to the Republcans

He has increased the debt from $10 Trillion to $17 Trillion. He critiized Bush about how he was irresponsible and unpatriotic and yet his debt goes largely unnoticed by the Liberal Left-Wing Media

If someone doesn't agree with his Policies they're called Racists

How he continues to call the Tea Party Racists and all kinds of nasty names yet he let the Occupy Movement get around with riots, drugs, trashing cities wherever they went yet he and the Democrats still loved the Occupy Movement

He talks about the redistribution of Wealth by taking it away from the Wealthy and giving it to people who haven't earned it themselves.

Tax & Spend that's all he and the rest of his Democratic Cronies know.

When one of his Policies fails he still blames it on George Bush or it's the Republicans' fault not his. He never admits any of his Policies that failed was his fault. He still plays the blame game and uses the Race Card.

Since he's been in Office he's never stopped Campaigning.

He's either out Campaigning all the time or on the Golf course. It's a wonder he can get any of his work done since it seems he doesn't spend that much time at the White House.

This Country would be in worse shape than it is right now if he could run for a third and fourth term like FDR did. But this Country really needed FDR to help get through the Great Depresion and WWII.

If Obama could've run and be elected to a third & fourth term in the White House the USA would be called a Third World Country.

When Obama first got into Office all he did was going around to other Countries on his Apology Tour.

Beatels1964

Medicare is loosing money, because the ACA is siphoning away 500 -700 Billions of dollars in a redistribution scheme to take paid for benefits from seniors to finance the Obamacare program.

No, it isn't. Medicare can't be cut, because it is funded in large part out of a trust fund. The "cut" is a reduction in the amount that Medicare pays for services, using the program's authority to require reductions in the compensation pays to hospitals and doctors.

Medicare is funded by the Medicare Trust Fund, which derives its funds from a dedicated payroll tax and has from time to time been supplemented by appropriated funds from general revenues. In the past this fund has taken in more money than it expended, building up a positive balance. In recent years, however, revenues have been less than expenditures, requiring that the government use the corpus of the fund to satisfy obligations. At the rate that money was being spent before the "cut", the fund was projected to run out of money in 2017. By reducing the rates paid to service providers, this date was pushed back to 2026. The "cut" you assert happened was not a cut at all, but a measure that extends the solvency of the Medicare trust fund by spending money less quickly.

Every single one of your other claims regarding the ACA is just as false as your claim that Medicare was "cut".

I'm not sure where the authority to require them to keep on working when they're not being paid comes from though.

The federal government is prevented from spending money by the Anti-Deficiency Act, which prohibits federal entities from incurring obligations "in excess" or "in advance" of appropriations "unless otherwise provided by law". It is that last part that allows the government to continue to require essential personnel to work, because the government has a duty to protect human life and safety that supersedes the provisions of the ADA.

Personally, You should probably Google the Chosen One Speech and see what you get.

Ah, so you can't actually back up your claims with a source. Instead you dodge and weave when called upon to back up your insane ramblings.

(For the record, when one Googles "chosen one speech", the links returned are to Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the Star Wars prequels, as well as to a handful of religiously oriented YouTube videos. Nothing about Obama).

Let's see if you can actually provide facts to support, let's say two of your nutty delusions. Try these:

He would balance the budget by the end of his firsty term.

Let's have a citation for this alleged promise.

He would find out what really happened in Benghazi on the 11th anniversary of 9/11

What do you think we don't know about what happened in Benghazi?

60> Personally, You should probably Google the Chosen One Speech...

I just did that and I didn't see anything like what you're talking about. I even added Obama to the search terms and didn't see anything.

64: Yeah, if you Google "chosen one speech Obama", the links returned are to other people derisively calling him the "chosen one", not to Obama saying anything remotely similar to that about himself.

I'm afraid beatles1964 is going to have to actually provide a source or we'll just have to conclude that once again he is talking out of his ass.

I'd respond to each allegation, but s/he wouldn't listen anyway, anymore than janeaustennut did. I don't think that's the point -- s/he isn't here to discuss, debate or even argue. It is heartening to see that this is the best the Tea Party can come up with and discouraging how much of that screed is projection and imagination.

Incidentally, Beatels1964 must have really hated the Bushes and Reagan, considering how much more vacation time they took in comparison to the current Commander in Chief.

http://theweek.com/article/index/235844/deconstructing-the-5-most-ridiculous-myt...

Beatles1964, I stopped reading your ridiculous post at the first line. Why should I spent hours of my time trying to find stuff you claim exists, when I don't believe it does.

Actually, I do think Obama used those words....though I think that he said something along the lines that the American people chose him by electing him President.
In Tea Party speak that means Obama thinks he is "The Chosen One". And indeed he is....just not in the context they like to spew.

Don't they EVER get tired of it. The guy will be gone in a couple of years. What are they trying to accomplish ?

Do they want a head on a platter ? Or what ? What do the WANT ? Do they know what they want or are they so miserable as people that they need to tear at someone else to feel better about themselves ? Are we moving forward as a society because of all the BS or are we merely mired in it ? I suppose some people don't recognized BS when it is up to their eyeballs.

Beating a dead horse, if you ask me. Exhausting !

Mini rant.

54> Beatles bigger than Christ.

^68, yes, I mentioned upthread that it was likely something like that.

I think what they are trying to accomplish is to make him so miserable, and perhaps ineffective (by trying to block almost everything he does, regardless of the merits) that no more upstarts like him will think they can run for President. Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if it were that childish.

Baggers are like children. Very mean evil nasty selfish hateful racist narcissistic children.

They will not prevail. The actuarial tables will take of most of them and the rest will wind up marginalized to the fringes of decent society the way cranks and whackadoodles always do, once the public catches on to what they actually are.

If you Google obama promises one of things you'll find is 19 huge broken campaign promises of president obama.

Beatles1964

If you Google obama promises one of things you'll find is 19 huge broken campaign promises of president obama.

If you want to discuss them then pick one and we can talk about whether he really broke the promise or not and whether it's his fault or not. What do you think his most egregious broken promise is?

Beatles1964, is it that you don't know how to link to a web page? Could you at least tell us where you found the proof that Obama said he was the chosen one? Or now that you're changing your accusation, does that mean that you retract your earlier claim? That you just made it up? You're not showing yourself to be particularly trustworthy.

72: So, a partisan hack site of the same caliber as the claptrap garbage you've been spewing thus far claims Obama broke 19 campaign promises. Exactly which promises do you think Obama made, and which ones do you think were broken, and how?

If you say "go Google it" to support your claims again, I'm just going to assume you don't have any support for your claims and are just talking out of your ass.

#60, 72: This is not particularly an effective way to argue with people who don't start out agreeing with you and know something of the subject. For example, Obama and Gitmo is a complex subject and we can and have talked about what Obama should do and what he could do with Congress interfering. But I don't get the impression you want to discuss that, that you care in the least about Gitmo. You don't want to approach the complexity of the real life issues of federal budgeting; it's easier to blame Obama.

I do love the way you criticize Obama for being out golfing; he's Wealthy, so according to you he's earned it.

I wonder if Mr. beatles1964 thinks Obama controls the weather?

We need this information to know which circle of bagger hell to assign him.

>77 JGL53:
I believe the Mr. may be a Ms. Based on the library at this poster's site. I could be wrong, if so I apologize for making an incorrect assumption.

Obama can be criticized; Harsch does it all the time. The Obamacare "roll out" is one big mess and the law is STILL so confusing folks don't know what to make of it or do with it. It's also "the gift that keeps on giving" -- to the Republicans.

If the GOPpists aren't so stupid as to repeat the shutdown nonsense they can "save themselves" in the election next year IF they simply concentrate on the uneasiness and dissatisfaction re the ACA.

The "irony" for those of "US" who would prefer a TRULY more liberal ("left"?) government is that if all this leads to a Republican prez elected in 2016 the road may be "backward"? (If so let "him" be Christie!?...)

Michael, don't lose heart quite yet.

I take pills for it...

The Republicans are terrified ACA will work. What happens when millions of people see a significant improvement in their standard of living and it's through a program their Republican congressperson vehemently opposed?

I'd like to see it "work" but not so well as posited; hence "we" would begin talking about such as "single payer" eh which WOULD "work" because it's not so complicated and MOST folks would KNOW they'd benefit once they got over the "socialist!" bit.

At least that's what I take the pills for eh...

> 82

Well, dissing Medicare didn't seem to hurt Ronald Raygun.

I was just talking tonight about how much Reagan hurt 'us'.

How so? "Expand" please...

Must I? Deregulation mostly.

> 87

That, and expanding government spending and not funding it.

>88 JGL53: Yes. THAT, and taxes on book warehouses. THAT, and El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua...

I agree with that but I might have added that Reagan "created" the zeitgeist that taxes are ALWAYS "toxic" and that such as social security, medicare and so on come out of the air perhaps or as "Venus" arising from the waves.

His foreign policies were largely "effective" but the results for those living them became certainly "questionable" but he did END (as per Bill Pemberton's book) on the "high note," making "deals" with Gorby and helping him to generate the "end" of the Sovs -- although I PERSONALLY miss the "bastards" I understood as opposed to those I now don't...

Well put, Michael...I mean the first paragraph. As for the second, I think that Reagan did nothing that wasn't prepared for him regarding the Soviets, who were done in before they invaded Afghanistan (it was a matter of time).

Well sure it was a "sclerotic" society by then with Brezhnev its icon -- Gorbachev was their "last best hope" but he was too late and probably not brutal enough?

But Reagan's Star Wars really did freak them out because THEY "believed" in it while ironically most Americans did not. Gorbachev was trying to make THE "deal" in which Reagan renounced Star Wars (at Rejkjavik especially) and then RR's increases in military spending DID keep pushing the Sovs to spend more on theirs rather than on reviving a real economy for their folks.

Oddly Reagan was kind of making friends with the Sovs and then "we" lost 'em and now we have the mafia state to "deal" with -- I MISS MY REDS!...

(As per above see "Way Out There in the Blue: Reagan, Star Wars and the End of the Cold War" by none other than Frances Fitzgerald, Simon & Shuster 2000...)

To even mention Reagan in the same forum with Obama's failures is terrible. Reagan went out of office a well respected President. If Obama doesn't hurry up and do something good for the country, he will go out of office as a failure. Now even Dianne Feinstein and Bill Clinton are telling the President to fix his signature program. My personal insurance has been affected by his Obamacare legislation and many others that I know are suffering from his program. Now is the time to fix the thing and make affordable good health insurance to everyone. FIX the legislation and FIX the website! Correct your misstatements and do the right thing. Obama could have left office with a great legacy, he came into office with the best support of any president in history, now his support is less than 40%. Quit trying to hide your scandals/mistakes and tell the truth, the American people are able to forgive if told the truth. Also, the arrogance of this administration is astonishing.

My personal insurance has been affected by his Obamacare legislation and many others that I know are suffering from his program.

Oh do tell. Thus far everything you've claimed about the ACA has been shown to be utterly false. Why don't you stop speaking in generalities on this topic and explain specifically how your personal insurance has been affected, and how others you know are suffering from his program.

But you have to be specific. Because otherwise, the odds are that you're just bullshitting again. As you have been every time before now.

>95 StormRaven: Shame on you, you can't accept what is happening to the country and everyone knows it! Nothing good is happening in the health insurance field at this time.

I think "Miss Austen" has a point there and not on her head really; the confusion over Obamacare includes far more than "tea baggers" and Obama haters and yes Reagan "exited with honor" (close examination notwithstanding) so if Obamacare doesn't "work" or fails miserably to sign enough healthy people up, sure that will mean Obama leaves his presidency "under a cloud" so to speak, as a Harry Truman or worse, a Jimmy Carter.

It's his "signature" (literally) accomplishment and failing will effect his legacy moreso than drone strikes, as disappointing as that may be to some...

iran contra contra?

#96: Shame on you, you can't accept what is happening to the country and everyone knows it!

Yes, Obama is the first non-Reptiloid to be US president. Unlike you, I believe that we humans have some right to determine our own course. (As long as we're engaging in evidence-free claims...)

96: So, instead of actually backing up your claims, you just resort to screaming. That pretty much settles the question of whether you had any substance to back up your mouth. Your dodging clearly indicates that you don't. You're just bullshitting again. Does it bother you that everyone knows you're lying?

Iran contra? Hey "nobody's perfeck"! (Just in the NICK of "Time"? "I was out of the loop"?)

Re Iran contra Reagan actually turned (inadvertently) what the Demos had always been saying about him -- that he was a "remote" "hands off" "unengaged" prez so when they FINALLY thought they got 'im all he had to do is "agree" with them! He not only didn't "know," he couldn't remember!

As Dick Mial (political editor for the La Crosse Tribune in Wis) told me once: when Reagan was speaking somewhere in Wis -- Appleton or somewhere -- it was raining and dizzlely all the time the audience (and reporters) were waiting for him but just when he set foot on the outdoor stage and started walking to the podium the sun broke through and a ray of light -- well you GET the "picture" (yes we see -- sigh!?...)

The only reason that the public is confused about the ACA is that the Republicans have been doing their best to spread lies about it.

>100 StormRaven: I don't think she is lying. She's just not up to any sort of questioning of her belief system. When you hear this junk on FOX or Limbaugh, it sounds so plausible. Then she comes here and is questioned about things she views as certainties. She cannot answer us and engage in a discussion as the risk of damage to her brittle world-view is too high. So she just yells awhile and wanders off without engaging.

She may well have had poor health insurance that didn't cover unnecessary things like cancer treatment, hospitalizations or doctor's visits, so it's now being canceled. But since she never read that plan and lacks the ability to research for herself and find a better, more affordable plan, so she can, in all honesty, tell us that the President has hurt her personally. That a for-profit corporation has acted unethically to scare her into a more expensive plan has not occurred to her. Unless she's making it all up, which can't be determined because she'll never tell us anything more than Tea Party talking points.

Those who fail to provide evidence fall to Hitchens' razor.

103: Asserting statements as fact without having evidence for those statements is lying, and she has done that repeatedly in this thread.

>105 StormRaven: Saying that she is consciously lying is attributing more agency to her than the evidence (of her posts) supports.

105> For someone who accepts things as fact without evidence it wouldn't be lying to reiterate those "facts".

106: This isn't the first time JAN has opined on the ACA, and every time she has spouted the usual falsehoods, the actual facts have been pointed out to her. And yet she continues to return and parrot the same Fox News talking points as if they weren't demonstrably false. That's lying.

She continues to claim that she and people she knows have been harmed by the ACA, and yet when asked to explain exactly how they have been harmed, she dodges and weaves, refusing to back up her claims. That's lying.

No, it just demonstrates that her world view is so narrow and brittle that she can't allow herself to engage with people who think differently than she does.

109: That's just saying that her world view is one that results in her lying.

> 110

Plus, I have not eliminated the possibility that she is a flat out racist and THAT is her main motivation. Perhaps a Negro once kicked her mother or raped her dog or something.

In any case I will quit reading her posts from now on. She is repetitive, clueless and boring to such a degree I can't take it anymore.

(As everyone on LT forums has no doubt discerned by now, I have a very delicate and sensitive nature.)

Seven posts about whether someone is lying or, let's say, worldview-challenged. Shouldn't those who, usually rightly so, demand evidence for someone's claims simply rebut their claims and leave it at that?

> 112

How does one go about rebutting utterly generalized statements of the "Obama care is bad - so there!" variety?

Should we rebut with a similar generalization, e.g., "You are wrong, it is in fact good!" or should we be specific? And how do we be specifically "pro" when no example has been given us of a specific "con"?

>112 RickHarsch: The thing is that while still living in SC, I would occasionally run into very nice people who would casually say something utterly wrong-headed and controversial and if I responded in some way that indicated I didn't whole-heartedly espouse their belief, they would be utterly shocked. They weren't able or willing to explain why they were right in thinking whatever it was, but they were certainly offended at my not agreeing (and I was usually pretty mild in my disagreement). I was always a little surprised at what people were willing to say out loud to someone they only knew casually.

You probably don't run into that in Slovenia. The only time I ran into it in Germany was at Oktoberfest and the man in question was clearly into his third or fifth liter of beer.

My comment is simply meant to suggest that it has become an absurd argument, whether the woman is lying or not. I think RG has it down pretty well, but if SR insists she's lying, fine. Yes, Jungle53, you're right, but that point has been made often enough as well.

Shouldn't those who, usually rightly so, demand evidence for someone's claims simply rebut their claims and leave it at that?

One issue is that many of the claims are so nebulous that unless the speaker specifies more, they can't be refuted, although they still remain entirely unsubstantiated. For example, JAN claims that she knows many people who are being hurt by the ACA. But when asked who those people might be, and how they might be being hurt, she jumps to saying silly generalities like "nothing good is happening in the health insurance field at this time" instead of actually answering the questions. The only conclusion one can draw is that JAN doesn't know anyone who is being hurt by the ACA, because if she did, she'd have actually backed up her mouth with some evidence.

Similarly, JAN has claimed that the ACA has affected her own insurance. But when asked exactly how it has done so, she refuses to answer and resorts to spittle flecked indignation. The only conclusion one can draw from this is that JAN's insurance hasn't been affected by the ACA, and that she just lied about it doing so.

When JAN speaks in generalities, she cannot be refuted because she refuses to clarify exactly what she is complaining about. When she does speak in specifics, she is either demonstrably wrong and shown to be so (at which point she simply carried on repeating falsehoods as though they were true), or she refuses to provide any evidence to back up her wild-eyed claims. In short, she's a typical Tea Party apologist who wouldn't be able to distinguish truth from falsehood with a road map and a compass.

Sure. My point is that once the poster is asked to provide specifics (in a case like this where it would be easy to do so, even if just anecdotally), fails to, says something meaningless next post, what's the point in going on about whether she is a liar or a dolt or brainwashed or all three or a nine year old having fun on the internet?

Now I've managed to keep the discussion going, which I did not intend to do. Sorry, I should have remained silent.

...spittle flecked indignation

Ooh, I like that.

Not that this is necessarily a reason to abandon the ACA...

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/11/10/some-must-give-up-healt...

Gosh, group how unkind can people be in what is supposed to be a great place of educated people who generally just love books. First of all I can't stand Rush Limbaugh and secondly I try to watch all types of public discourse on various news shows. As far as I am concerned, those that still believe in the President fine, but, I just can't see where he has benefited the whole of America. I also try to read a variety or eclectic types of reading material. I subscribe to magazines like National Geographic, The Smithsonian Magazine, Southern Living Magazine and Our State Magazine. I don't think any of these magazines are terribly bad or racists or particularly left or right leaning magazines. I am from a Moravian ( Salem College ) based tradition and I also have a Southern Baptist tradition ( both rather moderate religious leanings ). I believe it is important for people to try and look at all sides of an issue and make their own judgments. Also, I think God gives each of us the ability to discern good, bad or just misguided issues on their own. I have always worked with African Americans, Asians, Jewish, Hispanic and Caucasian individuals and never had a problem with any particular ethnic group. Just because I do not agree with some of the decisions and policies of the present administration doesn't make me a racist. As for my particular personal health insurance, I worked with a large company and am now retired. We have received letters stating that due to the ACA all retirees aged 65 and above were being dropped from the company sponsored plan. Also, the retiree plan for those retirees under 65 had their plans changed with lower coverage and higher deductibles with no copays ( must pay full amount when going to specialists etc). By the way, I had one of the best policies one could possibly want. So not only is the ACA throwing people off their plans it is also changing good plans to worse plans. Finally, lots of companies are laying off people and putting people on a part time basis. I know this is true because we know some people who are having this happen to them. As of today, the President has come out and admitted he must change something to get people back on lost plans. Who knows if this will be possible. Will his proposed fix work? I think a better way would be for both democrats and republicans to address the issue through a change in the actual law ( a good fix not a gut or defund ) not some maybe illegal administrative pronouncement. I think we are all in just a very bad mess........ It's time the President started working with the elected Congress and not just make changes he has devised himself!

It's an interesting twist to have older people complaining about joining a pool that includes younger, healthier people.

It's a desperate shame the website was so bungled. As the article indicates-many would probably find better, less expensive coverage, but they need to be able to use the website in order to find it.

Gosh, group how unkind can people be in what is supposed to be a great place of educated people who generally just love books.

Yeah, showing up and parroting lies tends to annoy people. Imagine that.

As for my particular personal health insurance, I worked with a large company and am now retired. We have received letters stating that due to the ACA all retirees aged 65 and above were being dropped from the company sponsored plan.

There is nothing in the ACA that would cause this. Your company or your insurer is simply lying to you. Many instances have been shown where companies have dropped people and then tried to sign them up for higher cost plans while falsely blaming the ACA and failing to inform their customers of the marketplace options provided by the health care exchanges. Some have been fined by state regulatory boards for doing this. It appears that you have an unscrupulous insurer who is doing the same thing.

Also, the retiree plan for those retirees under 65 had their plans changed with lower coverage and higher deductibles with no copays.

This has nothing to do with the ACA. This is just your insurer raising their rates and policies. Have you never had your rates or policies changed before? From 1999 to 2008, health insurance rates rose by 119%. Before the ACA was implemented, they were projected to double again by 2020. Health insurers, when left to be guided by the "free market", raise rates.

By the way, I had one of the best policies one could possibly want. So not only is the ACA throwing people off their plans it is also changing good plans to worse plans.

The ACA is doing neither of those things. Have you checked the exchanges to see what plans there are to replace the one you were on? If you're over 65, you may be eligible for Medicare as well. (Given that your insurer seems to have lied to you about why they dropped your coverage, I'm also dubious that your plan was "one of the best policies one could possibly want").

Finally, lots of companies are laying off people and putting people on a part time basis. I know this is true because we know some people who are having this happen to them.

This happens all the time and has nothing to do with the ACA. Further, as has been shown before, companies are hiring full time workers at a rate that matches or exceeds expectations. The claim that companies are laying people off or moving them to part time work based upon anecdotes is simply worthless. Especially when the employment data shows a very different story.

As of today, the President has come out and admitted he must change something to get people back on lost plans. Who knows if this will be possible. Will his proposed fix work?

It is possible. It probably won't work, because even if the President says that people can keep their old plans, there is nothing that compels an insurer to put someone on any plan, and nothing preventing an insurer from dropping pretty much anyone they want to drop. Health insurers are using the ACA as cover to drop people from plans they don't make much money on and are trying to get people to choose more expensive options.

I think a better way would be for both democrats and republicans to address the issue through a change in the actual law ( a good fix not a gut or defund ) not some maybe illegal administrative pronouncement.

The ACA empowers the executive branch to make administrative changes. There's nothing illegal about an administrative solution of this type.

Why should older people be thrown under the bus by the current administration by gutting Medicare of $ 500 to 750 Billion Dollars to help pay for his supposed great plan? Again, he is working to actively hurt one of the greatest government programs ever --- Medicare. We have worked all our lives and payed into Medicare and Social Security, these ARE NOT entitlements. We have worked 30 - 40 years for these prepaid programs! Another way the current administration is pitting groups against each other. I guess now its about putting younger people against older people. I always respected my parents and the older generations and was glad to pay into both systems that helped our parents! Now it seems this younger generation isn't very inclined to pay their part through long years of hard work and effort. The government should be helping people to get jobs with good benefits and put the country back to work.

Why should older people be thrown under the bus by the current administration by gutting Medicare of $ 500 to 750 Billion Dollars to help pay for his supposed great plan?

This is why people say you are lying. It has been explained to you several times that no money is being taken from Medicare and yet you persist in repeating this false claim. There is no way you can claim that you don't know this claim is false, which confirms my earlier assessment of you: You're a liar.

We have worked all our lives and payed into Medicare and Social Security, these ARE NOT entitlements. We have worked 30 - 40 years for these prepaid programs!

First off, you seem to have no idea what an entitlement is. An entitlement is a benefit that you are entitled to by law that requires no additional Congressional action to fund. Social Security and Medicare are, by definition, entitlements.

Second, neither Social Security or Medicare are prepaid programs. They are explicitly pay-as-you-go programs, and have been from their inception. Current social security taxes are used to pay for benefits to current retirees. The trust funds, created by intentionally overtaxing current workers, were introduced much later than the two programs in order to create reserves to tap into when current revenues fell below current liabilities. There is no social security fund in your name filled with money you paid into it. The money you paid into the social security system was paid out in benefits to seniors years or even decades ago. The social security benefits being paid to seniors right now are being paid mostly with the money generated by taxes upon current workers.

Maybe we shouldn't be surprised that you don't understand the ACA. You don't seem to understand how government programs work either.

>124 StormRaven: The trust funds, created by intentionally overtaxing current workers, were introduced much later than the two programs in order to create reserves to tap into when current revenues fell below current liabilities.

I'm in a kind of post-boomer generation that is apparently much smaller, population-wise, than the one that precedes me. So expenditures far exceeded revenue. Despite paying into Social security my entire life, I've always wondered if it would even be there by the time I got around to being old enough to collect.

125: Current projections show that Social Security should be solvent until 2038. Medicare is currently projected to be solvent until 2026. That is, if the law is not changed at all, both programs will be able to pay out benefits at the current rates until the projected dates. Even after those dates, if nothing were changed, the programs would still be able to pay out benefits, just at a slightly reduced rate.

Incidentally, the "cut" JAN keep whining about isn't a cut at all. It is a reduction of the amount paid out by Medicare for services by cutting the compensation levels for certain types of procedures (i.e. hospitals will be paid less for doing the same things). Without this change, the Medicare trust fund was projected to be insolvent by 2016. The "cut" actually extended the life of the Medicare trust fund by eight years.

Yeah, my dad was giving me that FOX-line about his retirement health coverage being in jepoardy because of the ACA. He couldn't see that all sorts of businesses are using this excuse to shed their promised obligations to retirees to improve the bottom line for stockholders.

This article, http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Health-law-brouhaha-pits-Feinstein-versus..., makes an odd claim

That's a tall order. Experts said that even more than the website meltdown, halting the cancellations of old policies would undermine the structural integrity of the entire law.

Many of the canceled policies cover healthy people, whose premiums are necessary to make the Affordable Care Act work. Allowing those people to remain outside the insurance market exchanges that are at the heart of the new law will funnel a sicker, costlier population to the exchanges, said Edwin Park, vice president for health policy at the liberal Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.

My problem is in what I bolded. The insurance market exchanges don't sell insurance for themselves but only on behalf of the actual insurance companies. So I don't see why allowing people to stay on their old insurance, even if they are healthier than the general population, would destabilize anything. The only thing that would destabilize the insurance markets would be if healthy people dropped their coverage completely which is more likely to happen if their policies are cancelled than if they are allowed to keep them.

128: Insurers are lining up to complain about the proposed fix. If I had to guess, they are worried that the change will expose the fact that the policies that have been cancelled were cancelled because the insurers wanted to dump unprofitable policies, and not because of any requirement of the ACA.

> 128

what i heard regarding this was that part of the reason that the aca works (from a budget perspective) is that in order to cover all these people who couldn't get insurance before or who were getting hosed by their insurance and are now required to be covered like anyone else, they were counting on all of these younger, healthy people to get insurance that they won't have to use a whole lot. so insurance companies are "incentivized" to cover the less desirable people by padding the coffers with the desirable ones. the "fix" they're talking about at least temporarily keeps some of these healthier folks out of the exchanges and with their old and shitty insurance that would otherwise not be available (but who cares, they weren't really using it anyway), driving up the cost of the new and better insurance for people who don't have this choice/luxury.

130> the "fix" they're talking about at least temporarily keeps some of these healthier folks out of the exchanges

But that's just what doesn't make sense. Whether you go through the exchanges or go directly to the insurance companies you still wind up in the same place.

131> No in different pools.

You mean each insurance company keeps track of policies that people buy from them directly in a separate pool from those that come from the exchanges? And if they're losing money on the exchange policy holders but making a ton of money on their direct policy holders then they are free to raise their rates through the roof on their exchange policy holders? Maybe that's the part of the law that they should consider changing.

I repeat what a mess.......America needs smart intelligent people to lead this country that aren't completely political. Where are the statesmen for our country and not the lifer politicians? America is in need of great leaders on many fronts..... NSA spies on us, IRS targets and profiles people, Justice department doesn't prosecute everyone equally and ignores the sale of weapons to drug kingpins, the TSA has wasted 1 Billion $ on misused training monies, Defense Dept. uses Drones to kill innocents, and among others the HHS has completely ruined 1/5 of the US economy ( our medical care ) through the ACA. Wow, what a complete and terrible mess for America. We are fast becoming a 3rd world country. Lets start working together to fix our government, bring people together instead of pitting everyone against each other. And enough of the race card stuff, most everyone today understands the bad things done to certain groups in the past, but, today everyone wants to work together if some of our leaders would quit the race baiting stuff. I personally don't have anything against anyone but I don't like being labeled a racist simply because I don't agree with the failed policies of this administration.

>133 jjwilson61:

hmmmmm. i think it's more that the new exchanges that are coming into existence because of the law are counting on young and healthy people to come to them from old policies that were bad/won't exist anymore, or who have been uninsured because they're young and healthy. old companies who would have had to get rid of bad policies (like mine) and would have lost those members (i'd go from a national blue cross policy to a cover oregon policy run through my state exchange) can now keep them (at least temporarily, if i understood the "fix" correctly) so it will be more unhealthy, more expensive people coming over to the exchanges. i don't think it's the same company keeping separate books or income streams. i think it's separate pools, separate companies. i think.

cool!!!! :-)))))

135> hmmmmm. i think it's more that the new exchanges that are coming into existence because of the law...

The exchanges are like Amazon. They don't have anything of their own, they're just a market for other people's products.

137 > Exactly, I agree the exchanges are exactly that; they don't own anything and are just an in-between market place for customers to access products.

#134: bring people together instead of pitting everyone against each other.

Do as I do, not as I say?

And enough of the race card stuff, most everyone today understands the bad things done to certain groups in the past, but, today everyone wants to work together if some of our leaders would quit the race baiting stuff.

1/44th of our presidents have been black; naturally that means we're all equal and anyone pointing out all the Facebook posts calling for the nigger and calling for him to be assassinated are just playing the race card. It's willfully blind to say that "everyone wants to work together" and it's all some leaders' fault.

> 139

Calling obvious racists racist is not playing fair, according to some who post here at LT forums.

So remember with whom you are dealing here - to a great degree.

You will probably be called a racist for calling obvious racists racist. That's the new ploy being employed by all the racists. - That and the fact that they say they hate Obama not because he is black but because he is a muslim arab atheist communist nazi socialist dictator born in Kenya.

but I don't like being labeled a racist simply because I don't agree with the failed policies of this administration.

Given that you have demonstrated that you don't understand the basics of how government functions, I think you are probably not a particularly qualified to determine if any particular policy has or has not failed. You have spouted misinformation and falsehoods repeatedly, and when the correct information has been presented to you, you have simply continued to repeat the same discredited claims that you were using before. Simply repeating false right-wing talking points doesn't make them more convincing. It makes you look like a nutty ideologue with racist tendencies.

135: But the Cover Oregon policy is a policy provided by a private insurer. Oftentimes, the same insurers that are cancelling out-of-exchange plans. In your specific case it makes a small difference, since Blue Cross isn't participating in Cover Oregon, but Blue Cross is participating in a lot of other state exchanges, so for individuals in those cases it should be more or less a wash for Blue Cross whether someone were in or out of the exchange.

>137 jjwilson61:, 142

fair enough. i don't really know so probably shouldn't have answered! what i do know is that my current insurance sucks but is all that i could have afforded before, i am going to get far superior coverage for slightly more money, and the insurance i have right now won't exist soon because it shouldn't be allowed to.

so jjwilson61, not sure what the issue is either, then...

Name calling and the use of profanity should not be tolerated in these forums. Enough said.

144: If you don't want people to point out that you are a liar, maybe you should stop lying so often.

And tone trolling is the last resort of someone who doesn't have anything of value to add to a discussion. But then again, it was obvious you didn't have anything of value to add to the discussion a while ago.

>1 beatles1964:-145 the fucking point is not the fucking swearing (if that's what is meant by profanity)

I think what the right is really railing against with the ACA is the underlying realization that the public no longer accepts healthcare as a luxury to be bought, but regards it as a necessity for human dignity and a workable society. Once people have access to decent care of certain standards, and don't have to negotiate with profit-oriented corporations over eligibility, risk, and whether or not something is a pre-existing condition, they won't give that up. And the profit models of the health insurance industry will have to adapt.

In a lot of ways it parallels the resistance of business to the implementation of worker safety and product safety standards. Environmental regulations. Things like that. It's a question of the public good. And Americans seem to have turned some corner collectively and come to regard access to health care, like access to education, as a public good.

While rewatching the show Scrubs (considered by every medical professional I know to be the most realistic depiction of the medical profession), I was struck by a line spoken by the character Dr. Kelso - the chief of medicine in the fictional hospital: "Treat the patients with insurance, and show the patients who don't to the door". This is the situation that Republicans are fighting to keep. If you have insurance, you can get medical treatment. If you don't, go ahead and suffer and die.

Things like that. It's a question of the public good. And Americans seem to have turned some corner collectively and come to regard access to health care, like access to education, as a public good.

Well, but for the fact that we seem to be scaling back on quite a bit of the things that you mention as common goods, like safety standards and workplace regulations, etc.

John 3:16

>150 JaneAustenNut: To someone who just wants to receive health care coverage despite being poor or having a history of cancer, that's right up there with "life isn't fair, suck it up."

151: Yeah. It's pretty much like saying "Instead of health care, you can have some magic beans." In the context of this conversation, it is difficult to come up with a more callous statement to make than that.

#150: You say "Lets start working together", and then drop a statement of no relevance to the conversation that has the sole effect of annoying people of a different religion from you?

> 150

You seem confused. We have a forum entitled "Christianity" that is reserved for mindless proselytizing for belief in things that go bump in the night. Check it out.

This forum, entitled "Pro and Con" is more so secular than religious. This particular thread deals with the health problems of the (mortal) flesh and possible human-based solutions or ameliorations concerned therewith.

But, then, witch-doctors in the Outback of Australia have a health care plan, of sorts, that relies heavily on spiritual discernment and the use of word magic. If this is your preference then go with it. At least it's better than the oxymoronic christian denomination Christian Science - folks who basically solve the problem by just denying it exists, so physicians aren't needed, much less health insurance.

(Oh, I almost forgot - fuck.)

>150 JaneAustenNut:

what on earth does that have to do with this conversation?

> 151, 152, 153, 154, 155

So it's unanimous then?

155> Isn't it obvious. She wishes people without healthcare would just die and go to heaven (or wherever).

Perhaps "Obamacare" WILL "work"; it still remains to be seen. And IF it morphs into a universal health care system then it will have at least "blazed the trail" but if it leaves behind the failing puffs of the Clinton plan then we've wasted twenty years?...

>157 jjwilson61: Heaven, surely.

-- And dancing close together cheek to cheek!...

> 157 - 160

Though most republicans claim to be christians they are obviously not Pope Francis-style christians. They are a special kind of christian - the kind that adheres to the principle of "Darwinian survival of the fittest". I.e., thry seem to believe "If you get sick then you will (should) die. Only the strong survive to procreate another day. Life is tough. Suck it up, ya bastids."

Actually, this type of christian seems the utter equivalent of an "Ayn Rand atheist" - IMO not so much immoral as amoral.

Personally I am on board with the concept of "No man is an island." (nor is any woman a peninsula - get it?). Humans are social beings. All 7.2 billion of us are together all alone here on planet earth and we need to work together, sometimes rather closely, on group projects that benefit us all.

Government, even that of the repulsive tyrannical type, are human creations based on our desire for some sort of order in a seemingly chaotic world.

Government is a necessary evil? Well, government seems necessary for sure, except to crazed anarchists (excuse the redundancy). We can debate the "evil" part on another day.

My point here is republicans = SUCKS.

Is there evidence to the contrary? I'm not aware of it.

(Oh, yeah, I almost forgot again - fuck.)

I'm a crazed anarcho willing to settle for socialism/economic democracy

> 163

I myself am not a crazed anarcho but I can live with that.

Well if you go to www.ijreview.com you'll find the article 19 Huge Broken Campaign Promises of President Obama and www.activistpost.com has an article 23 Obama Quotes That Turned Out TO Be Broken Promises Or Cold-Hearted Lies. And then of course there's his If you like your Health Care System you can keep it, no one is going to take it away and If you like your Doctor You can keep your Doctor, Period.

He was supposed to close Gitmo-what happened with that?

He got on George Bush's case for being almost $7 Trillion Dollars in Debt calling him nasty names and saying he's Unpatriotic and yet by the end of his second term he would've added almost another $14 Trillion Dollars to the Debt.

I think he said the I am the Chosen One in a Speech in Cincinnati on the Campaign Trail in 2008. Well,I got news for him, He ain't no Moses or Jesus Christ even though he might think of himself that way. Because his arrogance is so gigundous it makes the Grand Canyon look like a Sand Castle on a beach in comparison. He should list his arrogance as a deadly weapon.

And let's not forget his Apology Tour his first year in Office and how he never admits he made a mistake in any of his failed Policies, it's always the fault of former President Bush, the fault of the Republicans for trying to delay his Bills, never the fault of his own Party when Pelosi and Reid put up Road Blocks to the Republicans whenever they try to come up with some kinda Compromise, it's always His way or the Highway just like I said in my To Defund Obamacare Poem he refused to even meet the Republicans half-way and all the Dems want to do is Tax & Spend, let's raise some more Taxes and Tax the Wealthy even more too. I think he's more like a Tyrant or Dictator of the United Socialist States of America (USSA) than a President of the United States of America because he's always Bullying the Republicans around with his, I have a Phone and I have a Pen remarks. And what about all of his Scandals that haved Popped up around him since he's been in Office. Benghazi, the IRS Scandal, the VA Scandal, and all the others too of course. I think he'd like to be called King Obama. I think we're lucky that he can'r run for a 3rd term or he would make us more like a Third World Country.

Beatles1964

Isn't this post a repeat from a year or so ago? I'm sure I've seen it here before.

Yep. Looks like they entirely ignored the debunking that was done.

In any case this thread title is horseshit now.

The chances of Obamacare being defunded now is about the same as Sarah Palin being elected POTUS in 2016. Or Hillary Clinton coming out as a lesbian. Or me being invited to lunch by the Koch brothers.