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1Michael_Welch
I started reading Mackinlay Kantor's 1961 novel "Spirit Lake" first in 1963 I think and later I began it again in the 1990s after I had visited Spirit Lake in the northwestern corner of Iowa (Kantor's home state and mine; I was born in Des Moines), the site of the "massacre" of settlers by Lakota Indians in the 1850s and the captivity of some children later rescued.
I was familiar with Kantor from his 1950s Pulitzer prize winning "Andersonville" about the notorious confederate prisoner of war camp in Georgia although I never read it; I did read his "Long Remember," a novel about the battle of Gettysburg from the point of view of some residents of the town and liked it.
I further read his Random House Landmark book (for youth) "Lee and Grant at Appomattox" which I recall as a well written interesting account of the surrender and then I was fascinated with his "If the South Had Won the Civil War" which was originally published in Life magazine as part of the centennial of the war in the early sixties.
Kantor helped write Curtis Lemay's memoir of World War II, "Mission with Lemay," which I never read and later of course Lemay became even more "notorious" himself as George Wallace's running mate in 1968 as the "American party" candidate for vice president.
By the way Kantor wrote a screenplay based on one of his stories, "Gun Crazy," a well regarded 1950s noir and it seems he also lent his name as a "front" for a screenplay by blacklisted screenwriter Dalton Trumbo, a communist party member at one time, and moreover appeared in another leftist's movie, Nicholas Ray's "Wind Over the Everglades" as a judge.
Hence the work on Lemay's memoir may not necessarily show Kantor as a "right wing" guy but perhaps as a quirky sort of iconoclast?
Anyway I started "Spirit Lake" yet again -- I think I became daunted the other two times because of its 900+ pages even though I remember liking the book and I find I still do. This time I'm DETERMINED to finish it and I bring this all up just to find out if anyone else here is familiar with Kantor and has read anything by him -- "Spirit Lake"? Or any other?
Just curious!...
I was familiar with Kantor from his 1950s Pulitzer prize winning "Andersonville" about the notorious confederate prisoner of war camp in Georgia although I never read it; I did read his "Long Remember," a novel about the battle of Gettysburg from the point of view of some residents of the town and liked it.
I further read his Random House Landmark book (for youth) "Lee and Grant at Appomattox" which I recall as a well written interesting account of the surrender and then I was fascinated with his "If the South Had Won the Civil War" which was originally published in Life magazine as part of the centennial of the war in the early sixties.
Kantor helped write Curtis Lemay's memoir of World War II, "Mission with Lemay," which I never read and later of course Lemay became even more "notorious" himself as George Wallace's running mate in 1968 as the "American party" candidate for vice president.
By the way Kantor wrote a screenplay based on one of his stories, "Gun Crazy," a well regarded 1950s noir and it seems he also lent his name as a "front" for a screenplay by blacklisted screenwriter Dalton Trumbo, a communist party member at one time, and moreover appeared in another leftist's movie, Nicholas Ray's "Wind Over the Everglades" as a judge.
Hence the work on Lemay's memoir may not necessarily show Kantor as a "right wing" guy but perhaps as a quirky sort of iconoclast?
Anyway I started "Spirit Lake" yet again -- I think I became daunted the other two times because of its 900+ pages even though I remember liking the book and I find I still do. This time I'm DETERMINED to finish it and I bring this all up just to find out if anyone else here is familiar with Kantor and has read anything by him -- "Spirit Lake"? Or any other?
Just curious!...
3Michael_Welch
Actually the book has 951 pages not counting the notes and bibliography.
Perhaps one needs the help of Jesus to finish it?
Have you ever read anything by Kantor?...
Perhaps one needs the help of Jesus to finish it?
Have you ever read anything by Kantor?...
4faceinbook
I read both Spirit Lake and Andersonville. Don't remember which one I read first. I am thinking that it was Andersonville as it wasn't quite as daunting as Spirit Lake. I enjoyed both books enough to find the hardcover editions and keep them on my shelves however, I read them both in the early 70s', I've lost a few details over the years. Andersonville stuck with me more than Spirit Lake for some reason. I can remember thinking, at the time, that his books should be important as he portrayed pieces of American history that we would just as soon forget.
I do not remember having a problem getting through his novels but then I am a fan of the big book. Never too many words or details in so far as I am concerned.
I do not remember having a problem getting through his novels but then I am a fan of the big book. Never too many words or details in so far as I am concerned.
5Michael_Welch
Well bravo! I'll keep you in mind if I falter!
"Andersonville" is Kantor's most regarded work and maybe the only "lasting" one if there is one. As a stylist I find him quite original in some ways and able to recreate the period in a fresh "realistic" way, unromanticized.
I read "Long Remember" as an adolescent and probably didn't appreciate it as much because there were so few "battle scenes" but I thought it "unique" to see the famous conflict from the point of view of the people in the town who also had to endure.
"If the South Had Won the Civil War" posited an end to slavery by the 1880s as per Brazil but maybe that was "wishing" and by the twentieth century the US and CSA were fighting together in WWs I and II (President Woodrow Wilson of the CONFEDERATE states of course) and then in the cold war and by the 1960s were making tentative talks toward "reunion." What the civil rights of black folks would be in such a situation was unclear but Kantor wanted I think to "end" it optimistically.
I picked up "Gun Crazy" at the library by the way and will say what I think of it too...
"Andersonville" is Kantor's most regarded work and maybe the only "lasting" one if there is one. As a stylist I find him quite original in some ways and able to recreate the period in a fresh "realistic" way, unromanticized.
I read "Long Remember" as an adolescent and probably didn't appreciate it as much because there were so few "battle scenes" but I thought it "unique" to see the famous conflict from the point of view of the people in the town who also had to endure.
"If the South Had Won the Civil War" posited an end to slavery by the 1880s as per Brazil but maybe that was "wishing" and by the twentieth century the US and CSA were fighting together in WWs I and II (President Woodrow Wilson of the CONFEDERATE states of course) and then in the cold war and by the 1960s were making tentative talks toward "reunion." What the civil rights of black folks would be in such a situation was unclear but Kantor wanted I think to "end" it optimistically.
I picked up "Gun Crazy" at the library by the way and will say what I think of it too...
6faceinbook
I haven't heard anyone mention Mr. Kantor before, nor have I come across anybody who has read any of his books. Just checked him out on Wiki and found that he wrote 30 novels, six collections of short stories, four young adult/children's books and five books of nonfiction. Wow....I had no clue. I do have an older novel, written by him, languishing on the "to read" pile . Picked it up at an antique store. The title is "Beauty Beast". Haven't gotten around to reading it but now that he is on my mind I may have to move the book to the top of the stacks.
""If the South Had Won the Civil War" posited an end to slavery by the 1880s as per Brazil but maybe that was "wishing"
Interesting.......I had a high school history teacher who assigned us an essay on what we thought would have happened if Lincoln would not have freed the slaves. She made it quite clear that she thought the African Americans, in this country, would have been accepted, in time, far easier had this been the case. I wonder if she read Kantor's book. I believe I was around 13 or 14 when I was in her class. The book had only been out a couple of years. The timing works.
""If the South Had Won the Civil War" posited an end to slavery by the 1880s as per Brazil but maybe that was "wishing"
Interesting.......I had a high school history teacher who assigned us an essay on what we thought would have happened if Lincoln would not have freed the slaves. She made it quite clear that she thought the African Americans, in this country, would have been accepted, in time, far easier had this been the case. I wonder if she read Kantor's book. I believe I was around 13 or 14 when I was in her class. The book had only been out a couple of years. The timing works.
7lriley
Tolstoy's War and Peace is over 2000 pages. If you were to read the entire Gulag Archipelago you're probably in the same range. Just saying--look at the bright side.
8JGL53
> 7
Well, ok. Forget me.
I just put a book entitled The Crimson Petal and the White on my wish list due to its many good recommendations at Amazon. It has 900 pages.
I also remember back a few decades ago reading both Hawaii and The Source by James Michener, both over 900 pages. And also Gone With The Wind in my late teens.
Well, ok. Forget me.
I just put a book entitled The Crimson Petal and the White on my wish list due to its many good recommendations at Amazon. It has 900 pages.
I also remember back a few decades ago reading both Hawaii and The Source by James Michener, both over 900 pages. And also Gone With The Wind in my late teens.
9lriley
#8--War and Peace is the longest book I've ever read and it took me about a month and a half. I read a few other books along with it but it was a bear. It's a good book though. The battle scenes are very well done. It is the ultimate in the Russian epic novel and a lot of great Russian novelists were inspired by that to write epics in a similar vein for a good century afterwards. Solzenhitsyn's August 1914 and Pasternak's Dr. Zhivago. Grossman's Life and Fate, Aksyonov's Generations of winter and Rybakov's Children of the Arbat and Fear are all good examples of a Tolstoyan styled epic novel. It's a hell of a lot better than reading Ayn Rand.
The ultimate challenge of all though is trying to figure out the puzzle that is James Joyce's Finnegans Wake.
The ultimate challenge of all though is trying to figure out the puzzle that is James Joyce's Finnegans Wake.
10alco261
I've never read any of his books but those of us who are railfans with literary interests know him for his 1930 Poem The Ballad of Kate Shelley. It commemorates the actions of a real 15 year old farm girl who, in 1881, saved a crack C&NW passenger train from certain destruction. I've always liked the last stanza of the poem....
"So if you go to Honey Creek in some dark summer storm,
Be sure you take a lantern flame to keep your spirit warm.
For there will be a phantom train, and foggy whistle cries-
And in the lightning flare you'll see Kate Shelley on the ties."
The entire poem is in Hubbard's book Railroad Avenue and I'm sure it can also be found somewhere on line.
"So if you go to Honey Creek in some dark summer storm,
Be sure you take a lantern flame to keep your spirit warm.
For there will be a phantom train, and foggy whistle cries-
And in the lightning flare you'll see Kate Shelley on the ties."
The entire poem is in Hubbard's book Railroad Avenue and I'm sure it can also be found somewhere on line.
11jjwilson61
You may want to edit the Wikipedia page for Kate Shelley then. Under the legacy section it lists a poem by John Brayshaw Kaye but not one by MacKinlay Kantor (as well as a museum, bridge, and children's book in her honor).
12alco261
>11 jjwilson61: that's interesting. Actually there are several poems about Kate and there's quite a bit more than the museum and the bridge. For example, one of the Railroad Brotherhoods was named for her and there are other honors which escape my memory at the moment. As for editing Wiki-I'll leave that to someone else-my understanding is that trying to do anything like that is a real pill/chore.
13JGL53
> 9 " War and Peace is the longest book I've ever read and it took me about a month and a half. I read a few other books along with it but it was a bear. It's a good book though. The battle scenes are very well done. It is the ultimate in the Russian epic novel and a lot of great Russian novelists were inspired by that to write epics in a similar vein for a good century afterwards. Solzenhitsyn's August 1914 and Pasternak's Dr. Zhivago. Grossman's Life and Fate, Aksyonov's Generations of winter and Rybakov's Children of the Arbat and Fear are all good examples of a Tolstoyan styled epic novel. It's a hell of a lot better than reading Ayn Rand. The ultimate challenge of all though is trying to figure out the puzzle that is James Joyce's Finnegans Wake."
You are somewhat more well-read in high-class general fiction than I am, for sure, and also more dedicated or patient.
I did read Dr. Zhivago. I saw the movie first - the book was much better, as usual.
I have read most of Ivan Bunin's short stories - also Chekhov's - and have all the Russian greats on my wish list - only short stories though.
For the record, being poked in the eye with a sharp stick is better than reading Ayn Rand.
Weirdly, I have read both "A Skeleton Key to Finnegans Wake: Unlocking James Joyce's Masterwork" and "Mythic Worlds, Modern Words: Joseph Campbell on the Art of James Joyce" - yet I gave up reading the actual Finnegans Wake after about 6 pages.
As to Spirit Lake, I probably will put that on the back-burner. Years ago I read the shit out of Thomas Costain's historical period novels and now I only read historical novels infrequently, usually the romantic type.
You are somewhat more well-read in high-class general fiction than I am, for sure, and also more dedicated or patient.
I did read Dr. Zhivago. I saw the movie first - the book was much better, as usual.
I have read most of Ivan Bunin's short stories - also Chekhov's - and have all the Russian greats on my wish list - only short stories though.
For the record, being poked in the eye with a sharp stick is better than reading Ayn Rand.
Weirdly, I have read both "A Skeleton Key to Finnegans Wake: Unlocking James Joyce's Masterwork" and "Mythic Worlds, Modern Words: Joseph Campbell on the Art of James Joyce" - yet I gave up reading the actual Finnegans Wake after about 6 pages.
As to Spirit Lake, I probably will put that on the back-burner. Years ago I read the shit out of Thomas Costain's historical period novels and now I only read historical novels infrequently, usually the romantic type.
14lriley
#13 Solzenhitsyn's August 1914 is an Eastern Front WWI story--it's pretty comparable to Emile Zola's The debacle--more or less the Russian military run by a bunch of aristocratic elites most of whom aren't real soldiers even if they hold the ranks and have no stomach for fighting and who don't really care about the troops under their commands. I can see at least a few parallels with our own military these days. Grossman's Life and Fate revolves around the defense of Stalingrad in WWII. Pasternak's Zhivago more around the period after WWI--the civil war between the various factions of whites and reds. Aksyonov's Generations of winter pre-WWII, WWII and if I remember rightly post WWII and follows the lives of a more well to do military connected family during Stalin's time. Rybakov's Children of the Arbat is set in pre WWII Moscow--revolves around a young man growing up and excelling in the Soviet system who by circumstance finds himself accused of all kinds of nefarious activity and is exiled to a town in Siberia. Fear is the follow up to that. Notes throughout the various Stalin pogroms to eliminate his rivals. They are all excellent in their own way if you like historical fiction anyway.
There's a pile of others Bulgakov's The white guard. Buida's The zero train is more of an allegorical novel--great title. Another great title Erofeev's Moscow to the end of the line. Kuzntesov's Babi Yar--condemned both the Nazi's and Stalin for the holocaust and what came after.
The short story writer Isaac Babel died in a Siberian prison camp. Osip Mandelstam had written a very non-flattering poem about Stalin and died in a labor camp as well. Maxim Gorky--a major inspiration of the Bolsheviks was probably murdered in 1936 on Stalin's orders. Vladimir Mayakovsky another major inspiration to the Bolsheviks committed suicide more or less because he wasn't a toady and wasn't going to become one. Much of Bulgakov's work could not get published during his lifetime. Pasternak as well and there was a campaign against him accepting the Nobel prize. What Lenin and Co. started in 1917 after Stalin took control was not the way it was meant to go. Not that Lenin was a big prize or that there weren't major abuses and some atrocities but Stalin centralized power around himself and turned the revolution into something altogether different. Most all of these writers are tragic figures in one way or the other.
There's a pile of others Bulgakov's The white guard. Buida's The zero train is more of an allegorical novel--great title. Another great title Erofeev's Moscow to the end of the line. Kuzntesov's Babi Yar--condemned both the Nazi's and Stalin for the holocaust and what came after.
The short story writer Isaac Babel died in a Siberian prison camp. Osip Mandelstam had written a very non-flattering poem about Stalin and died in a labor camp as well. Maxim Gorky--a major inspiration of the Bolsheviks was probably murdered in 1936 on Stalin's orders. Vladimir Mayakovsky another major inspiration to the Bolsheviks committed suicide more or less because he wasn't a toady and wasn't going to become one. Much of Bulgakov's work could not get published during his lifetime. Pasternak as well and there was a campaign against him accepting the Nobel prize. What Lenin and Co. started in 1917 after Stalin took control was not the way it was meant to go. Not that Lenin was a big prize or that there weren't major abuses and some atrocities but Stalin centralized power around himself and turned the revolution into something altogether different. Most all of these writers are tragic figures in one way or the other.
15SimonW11
12> Any suggestions as to what you think should be included in Wikipedia. I occasionally edit a page.
16alco261
Kate Shelley - additional information - source Railroad Avenue by Hubbard pp.136-146 except for new information on the Kate Shelley bridge
1. C&NW railroad gave her a gold medal and a lifetime pass over the system.
2. C&NW in 1901 named the then new bridge over the Des Moines River the Kate Shelley bridge. The bridge was replaced (although the original was left standing) by the Union Pacific between 2006 and 2009 and is designated either "New Kate Shelley Bridge" or "Kate Shelley High Bridge" depending on which reference you happen to check.
3. Monument to her in Dubuque,l Iowa.
4. Boone local of the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen organized in 1886 and chose the name Kate Shelley Lodge Number 204. At the time of the Hubbard book it was (and perhaps may still be) the only brotherhood lodge named for a woman.
5. Bronze plaque at the Methodist Church in Ogden commemorating her deeds.
6. Ballads/Poems include those written by Eugene J. Hall (Kate Shelley), W.C. Hafley (Brave Kate Shelley), and MacKinlay Cantor (The Ballad of Kate Shelley).
What is interesting is that Hubbard's book doesn't reference the poem by Kaye
1. C&NW railroad gave her a gold medal and a lifetime pass over the system.
2. C&NW in 1901 named the then new bridge over the Des Moines River the Kate Shelley bridge. The bridge was replaced (although the original was left standing) by the Union Pacific between 2006 and 2009 and is designated either "New Kate Shelley Bridge" or "Kate Shelley High Bridge" depending on which reference you happen to check.
3. Monument to her in Dubuque,l Iowa.
4. Boone local of the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen organized in 1886 and chose the name Kate Shelley Lodge Number 204. At the time of the Hubbard book it was (and perhaps may still be) the only brotherhood lodge named for a woman.
5. Bronze plaque at the Methodist Church in Ogden commemorating her deeds.
6. Ballads/Poems include those written by Eugene J. Hall (Kate Shelley), W.C. Hafley (Brave Kate Shelley), and MacKinlay Cantor (The Ballad of Kate Shelley).
What is interesting is that Hubbard's book doesn't reference the poem by Kaye
18Michael_Welch
I always say that "if there is a movie" well it saves time!
But I like "Spirit Lake" (sadly there is no movie!) and find Kantor, as I always have, an engaging writer who has a remarkable lack of sentimentality yet presents interesting, even quirky and even unpleasant characters very entertainingly as well as realistically. He is also not "phobic" about sex at all. For me he is as they say "underrated."
I also watched the 1950 "B picture" directed by Joseph H. Lewis from a Kantor story and with a screenplay which Kantor is a co-author, "Gun Crazy," a kind of Bonnie and Clyde involving a gun fetish and a rather noirish, that is to say "unprincipled," young woman and the man who falls for her and in true noir fashion underestimates her danger to him in particular.
I found it a let me say "Rick Harsch" sort of tale of bizarre characters, yet also all too "human," who take life into their own hands without regard for others until it is "too late."
John Dall plays the gun fetishist who can't bear to hurt anyone and Peggy Cummins is the English girl so totally absorbed and sexually "dangerous" as well that when the guy exclaims "Why did you kill her?" she replies "I had to!" in a tone so desperate and obsessional that one realizes she just had to "kill" somebody sometime.
I think Rick would find this movie uh "right up his alley," the "alley" of the uh "aborigines."
By the way I just looked at "Gun Crazy" on Wikipedia and found that the co-writer named "Millard Kaufman" was actually the alias for Dalton Trumbo the formerly popular with the studio then blacklisted because communist screenwriter...
But I like "Spirit Lake" (sadly there is no movie!) and find Kantor, as I always have, an engaging writer who has a remarkable lack of sentimentality yet presents interesting, even quirky and even unpleasant characters very entertainingly as well as realistically. He is also not "phobic" about sex at all. For me he is as they say "underrated."
I also watched the 1950 "B picture" directed by Joseph H. Lewis from a Kantor story and with a screenplay which Kantor is a co-author, "Gun Crazy," a kind of Bonnie and Clyde involving a gun fetish and a rather noirish, that is to say "unprincipled," young woman and the man who falls for her and in true noir fashion underestimates her danger to him in particular.
I found it a let me say "Rick Harsch" sort of tale of bizarre characters, yet also all too "human," who take life into their own hands without regard for others until it is "too late."
John Dall plays the gun fetishist who can't bear to hurt anyone and Peggy Cummins is the English girl so totally absorbed and sexually "dangerous" as well that when the guy exclaims "Why did you kill her?" she replies "I had to!" in a tone so desperate and obsessional that one realizes she just had to "kill" somebody sometime.
I think Rick would find this movie uh "right up his alley," the "alley" of the uh "aborigines."
By the way I just looked at "Gun Crazy" on Wikipedia and found that the co-writer named "Millard Kaufman" was actually the alias for Dalton Trumbo the formerly popular with the studio then blacklisted because communist screenwriter...
19Michael_Welch
About a month ago I announced that I was attempting for the third time to read the massive 951 pages of MacKinlay Kantor's novel about the now obscure "Spirit Lake massacre" of March 1857 in the northwestern corner, "the lake country," of Iowa.
Well I finished it today and I must say it is one of the most remarkable works I've ever read although it has become perhaps as obscure as the "incident" and Kantor now a relatively "forgotten" author though he was both popular and highly regarded in his times, from the 1920s to the '50s.
The book is written "big" with "back stories" for most of its characters that make them "alive" to the reader and their deaths and miseries "real" and dreaded. At the same time Kantor never seems to "do" what one may expect but is absolutely faithful to the times and the places, almost never "sentimental" and judicious to both the settlers and the "wild men" (the Sioux and other Indians as one character names them) without hiding or excusing the cruelties of both.
I've not read a novel or any book that recreates "the frontier" as vividly and realistically as this -- Kantor's research is painstaking and incredibly thorough with even dialogues in the "Dakota" (Sioux) language as well as the Hidatsa.
Kantor takes this "incident" from his native Iowa's history and forms an epic of great breadth which yet is very very disturbing in its depictions of privation of weather and isolation as well as cultural cruelty; I can't help but see the book as a kind of "lost American classic," a prairie version of "Moby Dick." I just can't praise the book enough but I also think it requires "effort" to read for its length and its plethora of as I said "back stories" that give life to historical figures who left no actual biographies except their ultimate victimhood; but Kantor creates viable pasts for all and realizes their individual humanities.
This novel ought to be "rediscovered" but I fear it never will be but by a relative few...
Well I finished it today and I must say it is one of the most remarkable works I've ever read although it has become perhaps as obscure as the "incident" and Kantor now a relatively "forgotten" author though he was both popular and highly regarded in his times, from the 1920s to the '50s.
The book is written "big" with "back stories" for most of its characters that make them "alive" to the reader and their deaths and miseries "real" and dreaded. At the same time Kantor never seems to "do" what one may expect but is absolutely faithful to the times and the places, almost never "sentimental" and judicious to both the settlers and the "wild men" (the Sioux and other Indians as one character names them) without hiding or excusing the cruelties of both.
I've not read a novel or any book that recreates "the frontier" as vividly and realistically as this -- Kantor's research is painstaking and incredibly thorough with even dialogues in the "Dakota" (Sioux) language as well as the Hidatsa.
Kantor takes this "incident" from his native Iowa's history and forms an epic of great breadth which yet is very very disturbing in its depictions of privation of weather and isolation as well as cultural cruelty; I can't help but see the book as a kind of "lost American classic," a prairie version of "Moby Dick." I just can't praise the book enough but I also think it requires "effort" to read for its length and its plethora of as I said "back stories" that give life to historical figures who left no actual biographies except their ultimate victimhood; but Kantor creates viable pasts for all and realizes their individual humanities.
This novel ought to be "rediscovered" but I fear it never will be but by a relative few...
20RickHarsch
Dobrica Čosić has been called the Tolstoy of the Serbs. I read his 'War and Peace', which in the US version was divided into four volumes, one summer. So the next I read War and Peace, and found to my taste Čosić far better.
(Re Finnegan's Wake: my advice is keep it in the bathroom and open it at random--it's hilarious...)
(Re Gun Crazy: I'm downloading it now)
(Re Finnegan's Wake: my advice is keep it in the bathroom and open it at random--it's hilarious...)
(Re Gun Crazy: I'm downloading it now)
21faceinbook
I found Kantor quite by accident. At one point in time, in the early to middle 70's, broke as a church mouse, I haunted the paperback bins at the local Good Will Store. I found both Andersonville and Spirit Lake in the same bin, 25 cents a piece. I have since replaced the worn torn little paperbacks with hard cover editions.
While reading them, I remember thinking that the novels should be read as part of history lessons in school....rather than the dry list of dates we had to memorize, only to forget so as to work at memorizing the same thing a year later.
,
Though based on historical events these books are not a compilation of "facts" but Kantor's skill would be in creating interest enough for young people to search out the facts around the historical events he has written about.
The books are long though...but perhaps there are still geeks out there such as I was who bought their reading material by the words. The more words, the more bang for the buck. (or the quarter)
While reading them, I remember thinking that the novels should be read as part of history lessons in school....rather than the dry list of dates we had to memorize, only to forget so as to work at memorizing the same thing a year later.
,
Though based on historical events these books are not a compilation of "facts" but Kantor's skill would be in creating interest enough for young people to search out the facts around the historical events he has written about.
The books are long though...but perhaps there are still geeks out there such as I was who bought their reading material by the words. The more words, the more bang for the buck. (or the quarter)
22Michael_Welch
I don't know that I could call Kantor "the American Tolstoy" but I would be tempted on the basis of reading just "Spirit Lake."
"Gun Crazy" may seem quite outside that "sphere" but it too is "unsentimental" and unrelenting in its way -- acknowledging that Kantor didn't MAKE the film after all and it's different from his original story but it contains much of what was in the Saturday Evening Post piece.
Kantor also cowrote or "ghost" wrote the autobiography of the notorious air force general Curtis LeMay who was largely "in charge" of the bombing of Japan -- a relentless effort that "ended" of course with the atomic bombS. The book is "Mission With LeMay" and Kantor himself was "in combat" with the army air force in WWII and was decorated by LeMay it seems.
Nothing in "Spirit Lake" marks Kantor, to me, as a "racist" (LeMay ran as the vp to George Wallace's American party presidential bid in 1968) or as a hyper nationalist but he does seem to recognize the ongoing "brutality" of the world and perhaps in that he "shares" something with LeMay? Maybe I can get a copy of the LeMay autobio and "report" on it; should be interesting hmm...
"Gun Crazy" may seem quite outside that "sphere" but it too is "unsentimental" and unrelenting in its way -- acknowledging that Kantor didn't MAKE the film after all and it's different from his original story but it contains much of what was in the Saturday Evening Post piece.
Kantor also cowrote or "ghost" wrote the autobiography of the notorious air force general Curtis LeMay who was largely "in charge" of the bombing of Japan -- a relentless effort that "ended" of course with the atomic bombS. The book is "Mission With LeMay" and Kantor himself was "in combat" with the army air force in WWII and was decorated by LeMay it seems.
Nothing in "Spirit Lake" marks Kantor, to me, as a "racist" (LeMay ran as the vp to George Wallace's American party presidential bid in 1968) or as a hyper nationalist but he does seem to recognize the ongoing "brutality" of the world and perhaps in that he "shares" something with LeMay? Maybe I can get a copy of the LeMay autobio and "report" on it; should be interesting hmm...
23RickHarsch
I ignored the LeMay connection once, but...
24Michael_Welch
The book was published in 1965 but sure LeMay was already "controversial" re his advocacy of striking the Sovs "before they get you" which rather disconcerted both Eisenhower AND Kennedy. (He served them both as air force chief of staff.) And Robert MacNamara who also "worked with" LeMay in WWII said in the "Fog of War" documentary that if the US had lost the war those associated with the bombings (atomic and otherwise, as per the "fire bombings" which killed more than the atom bombs) would have tried as war criminals.
Again I'd have to READ the book but one reader review I looked at on Amazon remarked on how "well written" it is (Kantor no doubt) but that LeMay's "philosophy" of say "Sherman's" -- "war is hell" and make it so -- is there in all its uh "gory"...
Again I'd have to READ the book but one reader review I looked at on Amazon remarked on how "well written" it is (Kantor no doubt) but that LeMay's "philosophy" of say "Sherman's" -- "war is hell" and make it so -- is there in all its uh "gory"...
25Michael_Welch
Not finding a copy of "Mission with LeMay" handy I checked out a slim volume of the "Great Generals Series" titled simply "LeMay" by one Barrett Tillman who his blurb says has written a screenplay among other military themed works and lives in Mesa AZ which is just "next door" to "me" in Tempe. The book is published by "PalgraveMacmillan" in 2007.
Re Kantor it seems they met in 1943 in England when LeMay was an important general helping to devise strategy and tactics for the famous Eighth Air Force re bombing targets in German occupied Europe. Kantor had flown along with the RAF and LeMay permitted him to "ride along" with the Eighth no doubt in order to produce propaganda pieces and home consumption re "the boys" overseas and the war.
They evidently got along quite well and became life long friends. The memoir by the way Tillman says is the source for the "bomb 'em back to the stone age" remark about north Vietnam but Tillman notes that apparently LeMay is not supposed to have ever actually said that. Tillman writes that LeMay didn't "proof read" the memoir very closely which seems odd but neither did he ever disclaim the sentiment.
The impression one takes from this short study is that Curtis Emerson LeMay was indeed a major figure in developing the "total war" concept of air attack in WWII and played a significant role in victory in Europe and the Pacific. Afterward he presided over the 1948-49 "Berlin airlift" which probably did a great deal to enhance regard for the US in western Europe and then he shifted to the states to develop the Strategic Air Command which was the US' initial military response to the Soviets and the cold war.
One interesting point Tillman makes is how much farther ahead the US military was re "trains, boats and planes" and so on due to the SAC build up which again deflects the end of Eisenhower era charges that somehow "we" had "fallen behind" the Russkies.
Tillman also emphasizes that LeMay basically transferred his WWII perception of "massive response" -- hit 'em with everything you got -- to strategizing the cold war, assuming that is that the Sovs would ALWAYS "back down" if confronted with US strength and resolve so we could essentially ever "bluff them."
Tillman is quite sympathetic to LeMay and sometimes rightly so but questioning the assumptions that the "bluff" would work without any uh unwholesome surprises can be subtexted.
LeMay was an "important" figure in configuring the modern air force and in winning two wars you could say -- WW and the cold -- but it took uh "politicians" (never especially appreciated by many military folk) to "mitigate" certain potentially "fatal" aspects of military thinking?
Tillman also insists that LeMay was not very "political" himself although it seems he once considered in the 1940s being appointed a US senator from Ohio (LeMay was from Ohio) by conservative Democratic governor and later long time senator himself Frank Lausche.
LeMay also turned down George Wallace's purposal to run with him on the American party ticket because Tillman says he was wary of Wallace's race attitudes and because he feared that Wallace would hurt Nixon in the south and help elect Humphrey. He apparently agreed after speaking privately with Wallace and GW assuring him HE was NOT a "racist" and wouldn't run a racist campaign. Too, LeMay seemed to have lost his regard for Nixon, realizing Nixon was seeking to END the war, not "win" it, and so LeMay finally agreed to run about a month before the election which would have meant I guess that his name may not have appeared on a number of ballots?
It strikes me that LeMay was indeed "political" albeit not as politically adept as Ike say but as per Eisenhower he didn't see any reason to fight a war unless you were going to win it; otherwise you ought to stay out. Notably in New Hampshire in 1968 a number of those voting for Eugene McCarthy said that they voted for him BECAUSE LBJ was not "winning" the war and consequently "we" should withdraw...
Re Kantor it seems they met in 1943 in England when LeMay was an important general helping to devise strategy and tactics for the famous Eighth Air Force re bombing targets in German occupied Europe. Kantor had flown along with the RAF and LeMay permitted him to "ride along" with the Eighth no doubt in order to produce propaganda pieces and home consumption re "the boys" overseas and the war.
They evidently got along quite well and became life long friends. The memoir by the way Tillman says is the source for the "bomb 'em back to the stone age" remark about north Vietnam but Tillman notes that apparently LeMay is not supposed to have ever actually said that. Tillman writes that LeMay didn't "proof read" the memoir very closely which seems odd but neither did he ever disclaim the sentiment.
The impression one takes from this short study is that Curtis Emerson LeMay was indeed a major figure in developing the "total war" concept of air attack in WWII and played a significant role in victory in Europe and the Pacific. Afterward he presided over the 1948-49 "Berlin airlift" which probably did a great deal to enhance regard for the US in western Europe and then he shifted to the states to develop the Strategic Air Command which was the US' initial military response to the Soviets and the cold war.
One interesting point Tillman makes is how much farther ahead the US military was re "trains, boats and planes" and so on due to the SAC build up which again deflects the end of Eisenhower era charges that somehow "we" had "fallen behind" the Russkies.
Tillman also emphasizes that LeMay basically transferred his WWII perception of "massive response" -- hit 'em with everything you got -- to strategizing the cold war, assuming that is that the Sovs would ALWAYS "back down" if confronted with US strength and resolve so we could essentially ever "bluff them."
Tillman is quite sympathetic to LeMay and sometimes rightly so but questioning the assumptions that the "bluff" would work without any uh unwholesome surprises can be subtexted.
LeMay was an "important" figure in configuring the modern air force and in winning two wars you could say -- WW and the cold -- but it took uh "politicians" (never especially appreciated by many military folk) to "mitigate" certain potentially "fatal" aspects of military thinking?
Tillman also insists that LeMay was not very "political" himself although it seems he once considered in the 1940s being appointed a US senator from Ohio (LeMay was from Ohio) by conservative Democratic governor and later long time senator himself Frank Lausche.
LeMay also turned down George Wallace's purposal to run with him on the American party ticket because Tillman says he was wary of Wallace's race attitudes and because he feared that Wallace would hurt Nixon in the south and help elect Humphrey. He apparently agreed after speaking privately with Wallace and GW assuring him HE was NOT a "racist" and wouldn't run a racist campaign. Too, LeMay seemed to have lost his regard for Nixon, realizing Nixon was seeking to END the war, not "win" it, and so LeMay finally agreed to run about a month before the election which would have meant I guess that his name may not have appeared on a number of ballots?
It strikes me that LeMay was indeed "political" albeit not as politically adept as Ike say but as per Eisenhower he didn't see any reason to fight a war unless you were going to win it; otherwise you ought to stay out. Notably in New Hampshire in 1968 a number of those voting for Eugene McCarthy said that they voted for him BECAUSE LBJ was not "winning" the war and consequently "we" should withdraw...
26rolandperkins
". . .LBJ was not ʻwiinningʻ the war and CONSEQUENTLY
ʻweʻ should withdraw . . ."
(emphasis added)
Stressing the "consequently"
here because it represents a
cause>effect Korean War "Sequence" that I used to expect conservatives to find logical --
but they didnʻt(!) -- not, as I observed it perceptibly anyway. As you say about the conservative E. McCarthy voters (25), there was heavy use of the "shit-or get off the pot" maxim. I canʻt read their minds, but I always had
the feeling that they meant
"Shit. Period!" "Getting off the pot" didnʻt seem like an option in their minds.
If I were going to generalize about the Vietnam War attitudes, it always looked to me as if a small minority, a hard core were "For" it, and
a larger minority against it.
The majority seemed NOT for it, but "against being against" it.
ʻweʻ should withdraw . . ."
(emphasis added)
Stressing the "consequently"
here because it represents a
cause>effect Korean War "Sequence" that I used to expect conservatives to find logical --
but they didnʻt(!) -- not, as I observed it perceptibly anyway. As you say about the conservative E. McCarthy voters (25), there was heavy use of the "shit-or get off the pot" maxim. I canʻt read their minds, but I always had
the feeling that they meant
"Shit. Period!" "Getting off the pot" didnʻt seem like an option in their minds.
If I were going to generalize about the Vietnam War attitudes, it always looked to me as if a small minority, a hard core were "For" it, and
a larger minority against it.
The majority seemed NOT for it, but "against being against" it.
