1i_am_rufus First Message
Wouldn't it be nice if it was possible to be able to connect a translated version of a book, with the original title. This would make the book recommendations better.
Perhaps it could be done if one could type in the 'original title' in the book information
Perhaps it could be done if one could type in the 'original title' in the book information
2BoPeep
Are you getting the same work recommended to you in translation when you own an original, or vice versa? Which titles?
Translated and original works can and should be combined, which is done easily via the author page.
Translated and original works can and should be combined, which is done easily via the author page.
3GreyHead
You can combine them as BoPeep suggested - provided that the original and translated copies both have the same author.
4boekerij
I second to that.
However, combining without knowing the original title is not always that easy, is it?
If, e.g., a translated version is introduced first, are you sure that the subsequent LT member introducing another translation of the same work, or even the original language version, will recognise at once which versions in different languages do belong to the same "work". I do not think so. If however the original title were available with the translated version, too, the would be combiner could go for a easy check and match first.
Most people, even those that are Thingamembrarians, do not speak dozens of languages.
With some of my translated version books, I 've been putting their original language title in the Comments field now. This, though it is a workaround, is supposed to leave at least some help, track and indication to who 'd want to combine my version with ones in other languages.
I do not think we 'd rather prefer some kind of educated (?) guess. Knowing is better. Having the original title at hands, would be a maior tool to that.
However, combining without knowing the original title is not always that easy, is it?
If, e.g., a translated version is introduced first, are you sure that the subsequent LT member introducing another translation of the same work, or even the original language version, will recognise at once which versions in different languages do belong to the same "work". I do not think so. If however the original title were available with the translated version, too, the would be combiner could go for a easy check and match first.
Most people, even those that are Thingamembrarians, do not speak dozens of languages.
With some of my translated version books, I 've been putting their original language title in the Comments field now. This, though it is a workaround, is supposed to leave at least some help, track and indication to who 'd want to combine my version with ones in other languages.
I do not think we 'd rather prefer some kind of educated (?) guess. Knowing is better. Having the original title at hands, would be a maior tool to that.
5GreyHead
With reasonably popular books I've had some success in doing a Google search on the 'foreign' title & author. This works well with Scandinavian titles, moderately with French, German & Italian and is pretty awful with Spanish & Portuguese (no idea about the others). What you are looking for is a listing that clearly has both the foreign and the original title.
6MMcM
A cataloguer may have done the work for you already. Look for a MARC 500$a (General Note) field. This will often have the original title of which this book is a translation.
When adding a book that is a translation into a less well represented language, when you think it likely that the original will show up in LT, but it has not yet (such as translations from English), you can add the original (preferrably from an authoritative source like its national library) and link them. Then delete it from your library. It appears that the link remains and is picked up when someone later adds it for real.
When adding a book that is a translation into a less well represented language, when you think it likely that the original will show up in LT, but it has not yet (such as translations from English), you can add the original (preferrably from an authoritative source like its national library) and link them. Then delete it from your library. It appears that the link remains and is picked up when someone later adds it for real.
7rikker
Yup, I've done with Google quite a bit. Another case was one of the Harry Potters I wasn't sure about, and I looked at the translation's cover art--I could tell just from that which one it was. :)
8BoPeep
If, e.g., a translated version is introduced first, are you sure that the subsequent LT member introducing another translation of the same work, or even the original language version, will recognise at once which versions in different languages do belong to the same "work".
Boekerij, this isn't the first time you've indicated that you believe the users entering the work are solely responsible for uniting or separating works and authors. Not so. Many of us go around tidying authors and works that we know in-depth, even when we don't own any or many works by them. We research, we check what we're doing, and we undo other people's bad work.
It might be a linguistic issue, the way you express yourself, but it's not the first time you've said something like this. The 'subsequent LT member' is free to leave the book uncombined or make an effort to combine it, it makes no difference. They can even combine it incorrectly if they really must. Someone more knowledgeable will come along and fix it sooner or later, that's the beauty of the system!
Boekerij, this isn't the first time you've indicated that you believe the users entering the work are solely responsible for uniting or separating works and authors. Not so. Many of us go around tidying authors and works that we know in-depth, even when we don't own any or many works by them. We research, we check what we're doing, and we undo other people's bad work.
It might be a linguistic issue, the way you express yourself, but it's not the first time you've said something like this. The 'subsequent LT member' is free to leave the book uncombined or make an effort to combine it, it makes no difference. They can even combine it incorrectly if they really must. Someone more knowledgeable will come along and fix it sooner or later, that's the beauty of the system!
9MMcM
I have a book that is a translation from a left-to-right language into a right-to-left language. The cover art is mirrored. Which kind of makes sense. But only kind of.
10boekerij
BoPeep, I do understand at LT everyone is (or can be) a librarian--i.e. a Thingamembrarian (TMB).
However, as you know, too, TMBs too come in many different flavours. Some will just be interested in their own library, while others will do many efforts and labour to ameliorate the whole of the LT system, for all of us to benefit--with all tastes and combinations between those two points of view and more.
You might have noticed the author's images I 've been uploading do not consist solely of authors of whom I 've got books in my own collection--for that matter neither in my LT collection until present, nor even in my proper "real" collection (the former at present counting some 2% of the latter). As you said, and I second, this doesn't matter at all. I own the image and provided it to LT's use.
In the same spirit, I have been combining versions of works and author's AKA's, "even when we don't own any or many works by them."
What I meant to say is just this: providing room to mention the original title of a work in translation, in its proper field, is a Good Thing. Methinks. For it might facilitate the combiner's work, whoever the latter might be, whether present or future, indeed.
TMBs do not have to, neither for sure all will provide the original title with their entries, even when given the opportunity, for perhaps they do not know or they do not deal in such things or they do not bother at all. But then still, some will. And their information just might be valuable--and highly wanted. Methinks.
However, as you know, too, TMBs too come in many different flavours. Some will just be interested in their own library, while others will do many efforts and labour to ameliorate the whole of the LT system, for all of us to benefit--with all tastes and combinations between those two points of view and more.
You might have noticed the author's images I 've been uploading do not consist solely of authors of whom I 've got books in my own collection--for that matter neither in my LT collection until present, nor even in my proper "real" collection (the former at present counting some 2% of the latter). As you said, and I second, this doesn't matter at all. I own the image and provided it to LT's use.
In the same spirit, I have been combining versions of works and author's AKA's, "even when we don't own any or many works by them."
What I meant to say is just this: providing room to mention the original title of a work in translation, in its proper field, is a Good Thing. Methinks. For it might facilitate the combiner's work, whoever the latter might be, whether present or future, indeed.
TMBs do not have to, neither for sure all will provide the original title with their entries, even when given the opportunity, for perhaps they do not know or they do not deal in such things or they do not bother at all. But then still, some will. And their information just might be valuable--and highly wanted. Methinks.
11AndrewB
boekerij, I think the term was coined as "thingamabrarian". The League of Thingamabrarians is located at http://community.livejournal.com/librarything/.
12glendac
I'm a new librarian who's sorely unemployed so I might as well share my knowledge of cataloging here at LT.
In cases where an original title is chosen as the title to identify a particular work that appears in several manisfestations (Uniform Title), catalogers connect a translation of a work to the title of the original via the 240 field of a MARC record. For example, a Korean translation of J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter and the philosopher's stone would have a MARC record like this:
Notice that in the 240 field, the name of the language of the item being cataloged is added to the uniform title (Korean being different from the original language of the work). Field 245 is for what they call the Title Proper and what is entered here is what actually appears on the title page of the item being cataloged. Librarians further disambiguate a title by using the 246 field for variant forms of the title on the item being cataloged.
There are many more concepts related to disambiguating the same work having several manifestations (editions and translations) but take a look at the Library of Congress Authority Headings. You can search this resource to find the title authority headings. Take a look also at how variant forms of a title are entered in the 2XX fields of a MARC record at OCLC's Bibliographic formats and standards (2XX fields).
Perhaps LT can harvest 240 fields where they occur in downloaded catalog records or it can create a new field for uniform titles in the Book Information page that users can edit. Or users can enter an original title of a translation in the Comments field of the Book Information in LT and select the primary, secondary, and original language of the item in the existing Languages drop-down boxes.
In cases where an original title is chosen as the title to identify a particular work that appears in several manisfestations (Uniform Title), catalogers connect a translation of a work to the title of the original via the 240 field of a MARC record. For example, a Korean translation of J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter and the philosopher's stone would have a MARC record like this:
100 1 Rowling, J. K
240 10 Harry Potter and the philosopher's stone.|lKorean
245 10 |6880-01|aHaeri P‘ot‘o wa mabopsa ui tol =|bHarry Potter
and the philosopher's stone /|cJoaen K. Rolling chium ;
Kim Hye-won omgim
246 31 Harry Potter and the sorcerer's stone
Notice that in the 240 field, the name of the language of the item being cataloged is added to the uniform title (Korean being different from the original language of the work). Field 245 is for what they call the Title Proper and what is entered here is what actually appears on the title page of the item being cataloged. Librarians further disambiguate a title by using the 246 field for variant forms of the title on the item being cataloged.
There are many more concepts related to disambiguating the same work having several manifestations (editions and translations) but take a look at the Library of Congress Authority Headings. You can search this resource to find the title authority headings. Take a look also at how variant forms of a title are entered in the 2XX fields of a MARC record at OCLC's Bibliographic formats and standards (2XX fields).
Perhaps LT can harvest 240 fields where they occur in downloaded catalog records or it can create a new field for uniform titles in the Book Information page that users can edit. Or users can enter an original title of a translation in the Comments field of the Book Information in LT and select the primary, secondary, and original language of the item in the existing Languages drop-down boxes.
13rikker
Off topic, but re: thingamabrarian, I always assumed it was a blend of thingamajig and librarian, as a clever way of labeling "LibraryThing librarians," that is, users. Is that in fact the case?
14AndrewB
I'm not sure, but rjohara coined the phrase, and saralaughs released the logo here...
Source: http://www.librarything.com/blog/2006/03/what-is-this-thing.php
Source: http://www.librarything.com/blog/2006/03/what-is-this-thing.php
15hippietrail
This is a field I've wanted from the beginning.
16sanxiyn
A national MARC of Korea, KORMARC, reserves field 507 with indicator $t for this purpose. It is explicitly specified as containing the original title of the translated works.
I believe other variants of MARC may have similar specification.
I believe other variants of MARC may have similar specification.
17boekerij
Whatever the book title used as work title by LT, I think it SHOULD provide for at least a work subtitle containing the original title (in its original language).
The latter comes in handy for easy reference and combining, too. Today, whatever the language of a copy one has, one is always expected to, hmm, guess what might be its title (translated into) English. Translated titles might deviate. The same work might even be known through several different titles within one single language--as is the case with e.g. the quite popular Harry Potter and the philosopher's stone and Harry Potter and the sorcerer's stone.
Addition: Oops, though it knew it in edit mode, in reading mode LT even threw away the Touchstones for the former. Thus, while editing a message, one is supposed toguess know--by whatever means--which sole LT work title is accepted by LT Touchstones, for else, the Touchstones might be thrown out in reading mode. For that matter, at present not even the original title in its original language is accepted. This is rather, hmm, (censored).
The latter comes in handy for easy reference and combining, too. Today, whatever the language of a copy one has, one is always expected to, hmm, guess what might be its title (translated into) English. Translated titles might deviate. The same work might even be known through several different titles within one single language--as is the case with e.g. the quite popular Harry Potter and the philosopher's stone and Harry Potter and the sorcerer's stone.
Addition: Oops, though it knew it in edit mode, in reading mode LT even threw away the Touchstones for the former. Thus, while editing a message, one is supposed to
18milosh
I am often surprised by the names that appear for books I own. English is not my mother tongue and for books whose original language is not english, I would prefer librarything to display either the original title, either the title in my preferred language (french).
For books that are originally italian, french, portuguese or even japanese, the original title would say more to me than the translated in english title.
It was not clear to me that Have mercy on us all would be "Pars vite et reviens tard"... So, I was wondering when combining two versions of a book how the "winning" one is chosen.
For books that are originally italian, french, portuguese or even japanese, the original title would say more to me than the translated in english title.
It was not clear to me that Have mercy on us all would be "Pars vite et reviens tard"... So, I was wondering when combining two versions of a book how the "winning" one is chosen.
19boekerij
>18 milosh:
How true this is. But then remember, at present LT knows (and wants to know) but one authoritative title--and, whatever the original language of the book/work, the latter is mostly the American.
Take into account this message might be abuse flagged, for its language might be interpreted as being far too rude.
Not everybode seems to get that not all people are American--<sensitivity warning for rude speech>hint : most people are not</>--perhaps nor even want to be American. <sensitivity warning for rudespeech fact>Hey, most people in the world even do not speak nor even understand any English</> But then again, all this--considering the firm sensitivities of some Thingamambrarians--, might add insult to injury--to some at least.
This matter is not only ideological--i.e. dealing with hypersensitivity--but just plain technical, too. LT is regarding some sources as authoritative. For practical reasons, too, the latter are mostly English language if not American.
Until LT provides for a original title (in its original language) solution--be it either as work title itself or at least as some work original title--this problem will not go away, but grow ever worse instead.
Even though most people are captured in monolinguality--as most people are indeed--this does not necessary mean, nor does it, that everyone is speaking or understanding your proper language--whatever your proper language be.
All this said, providing for the original title in its original language would be a big leap forward indeed. I am looking forward to this--and many more are too, I think.
How true this is. But then remember, at present LT knows (and wants to know) but one authoritative title--and, whatever the original language of the book/work, the latter is mostly the American.
Take into account this message might be abuse flagged, for its language might be interpreted as being far too rude.
Not everybode seems to get that not all people are American--<sensitivity warning for rude speech>hint : most people are not</>--perhaps nor even want to be American. <sensitivity warning for rude
This matter is not only ideological--i.e. dealing with hypersensitivity--but just plain technical, too. LT is regarding some sources as authoritative. For practical reasons, too, the latter are mostly English language if not American.
Until LT provides for a original title (in its original language) solution--be it either as work title itself or at least as some work original title--this problem will not go away, but grow ever worse instead.
Even though most people are captured in monolinguality--as most people are indeed--this does not necessary mean, nor does it, that everyone is speaking or understanding your proper language--whatever your proper language be.
All this said, providing for the original title in its original language would be a big leap forward indeed. I am looking forward to this--and many more are too, I think.
20jmhdassen
Lets revive this dormant issue !!!
For me to have access to the original title is extremely important since I read many translated works (in several languages).
When I buy a book from an author I do not know or remember it is always the first thing I look for.
It should be dead simple to add a field for this (next to original language for instance). Even if you do not maintain the contents centrally, at least it allows me to keep track of the original title.
There might occasionally be issues with foreign fonts, but I can just copy and paste from internet in those cases.
For me to have access to the original title is extremely important since I read many translated works (in several languages).
When I buy a book from an author I do not know or remember it is always the first thing I look for.
It should be dead simple to add a field for this (next to original language for instance). Even if you do not maintain the contents centrally, at least it allows me to keep track of the original title.
There might occasionally be issues with foreign fonts, but I can just copy and paste from internet in those cases.
21norabelle414
>20 jmhdassen: The "original title" field was added several years ago
22Nicole_VanK
>20 jmhdassen: You'll find it in "common knowledge" - near the bottom of the work page.
23MarthaJeanne
Anyone who reads translations: it is a big help to combiners if you enter the original title in CK. It is usually printed on the copyright page. Sometimes it can be very difficult to find this information on the web.
Best sources for me tend to be
WorldCat - often there under Other Titles
Amazon - if there is a Look Inside it often includes the copyright page
Very few author's websites include titles of translations.
You can also combine your copy with the main work yourself or post in https://www.librarything.com/groups/combiners for help.
Best sources for me tend to be
WorldCat - often there under Other Titles
Amazon - if there is a Look Inside it often includes the copyright page
Very few author's websites include titles of translations.
You can also combine your copy with the main work yourself or post in https://www.librarything.com/groups/combiners for help.
24flying_monkeys
>23 MarthaJeanne: to confirm: the Original Title in CK is the original title in its original language? **Not** in my edition's original language?
I'm reading more translated works now and from now on will make sure to include the original title if it's empty.
I'm reading more translated works now and from now on will make sure to include the original title if it's empty.
25MarthaJeanne
>24 flying_monkeys: If you open the field you will see the prompt:
The original title in the original language
The original title in the original language
26Cynfelyn
>24 flying_monkeys: For a solid example, Erich Kästner's Emil and the Detectives, originally published in German, the CK 'Original title' is 'Emil und die Detektive' in each of the language options used, while each language's 'Canonical title' gives the title used when the book was published in that language: Emil and the Detectives (English), Emiel en zijn detectives (Dutch), Эмиль и сыщики (Russian) etc.
27MarthaJeanne
It is also one of the CK fields that you can display in your catalogue.
28flying_monkeys
>25 MarthaJeanne: and >26 Cynfelyn: Thank you!
29ppedrocosta
I'd like to include the original title of translated books. I am Portuguese and I will publish in my library many tranlated titles. Wouldn't it be nice to have this chance?
30AnnieMod
>29 ppedrocosta: It is already there in the records - in the Common Knowledge (where you can add the value itself) and all translations are combined together. That may need to be done manually (usually is needed for a first translation) but it is done.
You are responding to a topic from 2006 when the site was very different. :)
Welcome to LT!
If you want an example, open the record for Viagens that you just added. You can see the original title, original language and you can see that your book is combined with the same book in all the other languages.
You are responding to a topic from 2006 when the site was very different. :)
Welcome to LT!
If you want an example, open the record for Viagens that you just added. You can see the original title, original language and you can see that your book is combined with the same book in all the other languages.
31SandraArdnas
>29 ppedrocosta: To add to >30 AnnieMod:, you can see this field in your catalogue too by adding it to one of your display styles (labeled A-E)
32MarthaJeanne
If your book has been combined properly, there is a good chance that the original title is already available. If you add a translated book that does not autocombine in, you should generally combine it yourself if you can. If you leave it, it is a big help for combiners trying to clean up an author page if you enter the original title in CK. This information is usually available on the copyright page, and can be quite difficult to discover online.
