Hard Science Science Fiction - Who Writes It?

Dear Group,
I like hard science in my science fiction. I do not like fantasy science fiction nearly as much. I liked Jurrasic Park by Michael Crichton when it first came out because it was cutting edge science. I liked Robin Cook's Chromosome 6 when it came out because it was about medical research and DNA used to create protohumans.
Who writes science fiction that is more science than fiction or fantasy? Ender's Game was pretty good science for it's time, predicting that video games could be used to conquer the universe. Midshipman's Hope and the entire Hope Series was pretty soundly based in reality instead of fantasy. I like it them all!
It seems like the science fiction section's shelves are filled with nothing but fantasy any more.
Please help! Point me toward SCIENCE fiction.

Here's what the tagmash for 'sf,hard sf' says. Should keep you going for a little bit, and lead you to further investigation. :)

Top books (100 books)

* Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds
* Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson
* Green mars by Kim Stanley Robinson
* Eon by Greg Bear
* Blue Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson
* Chasm City by Alastair Reynolds
* The Ringworld engineers by Larry Niven
* Ringworld by Larry Niven
* Redemption Ark by Alastair Reynolds
* Absolution Gap by Alastair Reynolds
* A deepness in the sky by Vernor Vinge
* Accelerando by Charles Stross
* Mission of gravity by Hal Clement
* The mote in God's eye, by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle by Larry Niven
* Quarantine by Greg Egan
* Iron Sunrise by Charles Stross
* Manifold : origin by Stephen Baxter
* Schild's ladder by Greg Egan
* Blindsight by Peter Watts
* Permutation city by Greg Egan
* Diaspora : a novel by Greg Egan
* Dragon's egg by Robert L. Forward
* Pushing Ice by Alastair Reynolds
* Eternity by Greg Bear
* Timescape by Gregory Benford
* Anvil of stars by Greg Bear
* Century rain by Alastair Reynolds
* Moving Mars by Greg Bear
* A fire upon the deep by Vernor Vinge
* Excession by Iain Banks
* The Ringworld throne by Larry Niven
* Distress : a novel by Greg Egan
* Pandora's star by Peter F. Hamilton
* Blood music by Greg Bear
* Singularity sky by Charles Stross
* Space by Stephen Baxter
* Slant by Greg Bear
* Sundiver by David Brin
* Mars by Ben Bova
* Axiomatic by Greg Egan
* The Cassini Division by Ken MacLeod
* The Algebraist by Iain Banks
* Lady of mazes by Karl Schroeder
* The world of Ptavvs by Larry Niven
* Queen of angels by Greg Bear
* The forever war by Joe Haldeman
* The hard SF renaissance by David G. Hartwell
* Neutron star by Larry Niven
* Evolution : a novel by Stephen Baxter
* Diamond dogs ; Turquoise days by Alastair Reynolds
* Vacuum diagrams : stories of the Xeelee sequence by Stephen Baxter
* Fallen dragon by Peter F. Hamilton
* The gripping hand by Larry Niven
* The forge of God by Greg Bear
* Against a dark background by Iain Banks
* Startide rising by David Brin
* Ventus by Karl Schroeder
* The Ascent of wonder : the evolution of hard SF by David G. Hartwell
* Darwin's children by Greg Bear
* A hole in space by Larry Niven
* Consider Phlebas by Iain Banks
* Manifold : time by Stephen Baxter
* Across realtime by Vernor Vinge
* Raft by Stephen Baxter
* Great sky river by Gregory Benford
* Newton's wake : a space opera by Ken MacLeod
* The engines of God by Jack McDevitt
* Rainbows end by Vernor Vinge
* A world out of time : a novel by Larry Niven
* Starfish by Peter Watts
* Coalescent (Destiny's Children Series) by Stephen Baxter
* Ringworld's children by Larry Niven
* Infinity's shore by David Brin
* Protector by Larry Niven
* The uplift war by David Brin
* Furious gulf by Gregory Benford
* Ring by Stephen Baxter
* Darwin's radio by Greg Bear
* Look to windward by Iain Banks
* Use of weapons by Iain Banks
* Legacy by Greg Bear
* The peace war by Vernor Vinge
* Judas unchained by Peter F. Hamilton
* Voyage by Stephen Baxter
* Ender's game by Orson Scott Card
* The player of games by Iain Banks
* Altered carbon by Richard Morgan
* James P. Hogan's the giants novels by James P. Hogan
* Strength of stones by Greg Bear
* Timelike infinity by Stephen Baxter
* Tau zero by Poul Anderson
* Man plus by Frederik Pohl
* Rimrunners by C. J. Cherryh
* The collected stories of Vernor Vinge by Vernor Vinge
* Oath of fealty by Larry Niven
* Sands of Mars by Arthur C. Clarke
* Glasshouse by Charles Stross
* Cosmonaut keep by Ken MacLeod
* Tides of light by Gregory Benford
* Mindstar rising by Peter F. Hamilton

I asked myself that same question sometime ago and came up with a list similar to the excellent one proffered by bluetyson. When I went to the bookstore to pick up some of the books on my list I came across The Hard SF Renaissance edited by David G. Hartwell and Kathryn Cramer which I see is also on bluetyson's list. It proved to be an excellent and relatively quick way to get an idea of who several of the best Hard SF authors were.

Absolutely, those two anthologies, the Ascent of Wonder and the Hard SF Renaissance are fantastic.

You could try the tagmash science-fiction,hard sf etc., see if it gives anything different, but for an overview if you can find the two above books somehow definitely read them.

bluetyson, you have been very helpful. I did not know what a tagmash was until your post above and the list is great. Could you all comment on who is your favorite current hard science fiction author? I've already read many of the classics listed and don't have immediate access to the suggested anthologies. Who is churning out good stuff today that incorporates the human genome, or string theory, or some such science.

Favorite?

Egan then Stross then Reynolds.

To go that specific, I would have to think about it, as in a whole book about string theory especially?

As far as humane genome stuff, I would say all those people have looked at it.

Australians you may not have come across :-

Sean Williams
Sean McMullen

also fit, and fit in the altered human category.

Peter Watts, an obvious one for that, too, and Blindsight is online, as well as a bunch of his stories you can check out :-

Here's some that is online, briefly

Closer - Greg Egan
The Demon's Passage - Greg Egan
The Extra - Greg Egan
The Moral Virologist - Greg Egan
Oceanic - Greg Egan
Only Connect - Greg Egan
Oracle - Greg Egan
Orphanogenesis - Greg Egan
The Planck Dive - Greg Egan
Riding the Crocodile - Greg Egan
Singleton - Greg Egan
The Vat - Greg Egan
Worthless - Greg Egan
Yeyuka - Greg Egan
Border Guards - Greg Egan

At the Focus - Sean McMullen and Paul Collins
Alone In His Chariot - Sean McMullen
The Colours of the Masters - Sean McMullen
The Glasken Chronicles - Sean McMullen
Unthinkable - Sean McMullen
Voice of Steel - Sean McMullen
The Way to Greece - Sean McMullen

The Masque of Agamemnon - Sean Williams and Simon Brown
A Map of the Mines of Barnath - Sean Williams
The Perfect Gun - Sean Williams
The Seventh Letter - Sean Williams
A View Before Dying - Sean Williams
White Christmas - Sean Williams

Ambassador - Peter Watts
Blindsight - Peter Watts
Flesh Made Word - Peter Watts
Home - Peter Watts
Mayfly - Peter Watts
A Niche - Peter Watts
Nimbus - Peter Watts

Fresco - Alastair Reynolds
Spirey and the Queen - Alastair Reynolds
A Spy In Europa - Alastair Reynolds

Jury Service - Charles Stross and Cory Doctorow
Accelerando - Charles Stross
The Boys - Charles Stross
A Colder War - Charles Stross
Dechlorinating the Moderator - Charles Stross
Elector - Charles Stross
Extracts From the Club Diary - Charles Stross
Generation Gap - Charles Stross
Halo - Charles Stross
Lobsters - Charles Stross
Maxo Signals - Charles Stross
Message In A Time Capsule - Charles Stross
The Midlist Bombers - Charles Stross
Missile Gap - Charles Stross
Nightfall - Charles Stross
Remade - Charles Stross
SEAQ and Destroy - Charles Stross
Ship of Fools - Charles Stross
Something Sweet - Charles Stross
Tarkovsky's Cut - Charles Stross
Tourist - Charles Stross
Yellow Snow - Charles Stross

This is the tagmash for science-fiction,hard sf for comparison, very similar, but longer :-

Top books (250 books)

* Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson
* Ringworld by Larry Niven
* Green mars by Kim Stanley Robinson
* Blue Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson
* The Ringworld engineers by Larry Niven
* The mote in God's eye, by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle by Larry Niven
* Eon by Greg Bear
* A deepness in the sky by Vernor Vinge
* Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds
* A fire upon the deep by Vernor Vinge
* Sundiver by David Brin
* The forever war by Joe Haldeman
* Chasm City by Alastair Reynolds
* The Algebraist by Iain Banks
* Excession by Iain Banks
* Absolution Gap by Alastair Reynolds
* Startide rising by David Brin
* Ender's game by Orson Scott Card
* Blood music by Greg Bear
* Redemption Ark by Alastair Reynolds
* The Ringworld throne by Larry Niven
* Timescape by Gregory Benford
* Accelerando by Charles Stross
* Consider Phlebas by Iain Banks
* Moving Mars by Greg Bear
* The uplift war by David Brin
* Pandora's star by Peter F. Hamilton
* Singularity sky by Charles Stross
* Against a dark background by Iain Banks
* Iron Sunrise by Charles Stross
* Anvil of stars by Greg Bear
* Eternity by Greg Bear
* The forge of God by Greg Bear
* Darwin's radio by Greg Bear
* Use of weapons by Iain Banks
* The player of games by Iain Banks
* Mission of gravity by Hal Clement
* Slant by Greg Bear
* Infinity's shore by David Brin
* Look to windward by Iain Banks
* Altered carbon by Richard Morgan
* The gripping hand by Larry Niven
* Neutron star by Larry Niven
* Queen of angels by Greg Bear
* Diaspora : a novel by Greg Egan
* Protector by Larry Niven
* Space by Stephen Baxter
* The diamond age, or, Young lady's illustrated primer by Neal Stephenson
* A world out of time : a novel by Larry Niven
* Hyperion by Dan Simmons
* Darwin's children by Greg Bear
* Manifold : time by Stephen Baxter
* Fallen dragon by Peter F. Hamilton
* Century rain by Alastair Reynolds
* Mars by Ben Bova
* Permutation city by Greg Egan
* The Cassini Division by Ken MacLeod
* Heaven's reach by David Brin
* Dragon's egg by Robert L. Forward
* Snow crash by Neal Stephenson
* The integral trees by Larry Niven
* Feersum endjinn by Iain Banks
* Judas unchained by Peter F. Hamilton
* The engines of God by Jack McDevitt
* The world of Ptavvs by Larry Niven
* Manifold : origin by Stephen Baxter
* The state of the art by Iain Banks
* Cosmonaut keep by Ken MacLeod
* Foundation's edge by Isaac Asimov
* Second foundation by Isaac Asimov
* 2010 : odyssey two by Arthur C. Clarke
* Foundation and empire by Isaac Asimov
* 2001: A Space Odyssey by Arthur C. Clarke
* I, Robot by Isaac Asimov
* Evolution : a novel by Stephen Baxter
* The moon is a harsh mistress by Robert A. Heinlein
* Quarantine by Greg Egan
* Heart of the comet by Gregory Benford
* Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke
* 2061 : odyssey three by Arthur C. Clarke
* The fall of Hyperion by Dan Simmons
* Pushing Ice by Alastair Reynolds
* Endymion by Dan Simmons
* Oath of fealty by Larry Niven
* The time ships by Stephen Baxter
* Brightness reef by David Brin
* Vacuum diagrams : stories of the Xeelee sequence by Stephen Baxter
* Rimrunners by C. J. Cherryh
* The rise of Endymion by Dan Simmons
* The fountains of Paradise by Arthur C. Clarke
* Down and out in the Magic Kingdom by Cory Doctorow
* The Andromeda strain by Michael Crichton
* Ilium by Dan Simmons
* Ringworld's children by Larry Niven
* Legacy by Greg Bear
* Broken angels by Richard Morgan
* Lucifer's hammer by Larry Niven
* Across realtime by Vernor Vinge
* Old man's war by John Scalzi
* Voyage by Stephen Baxter
* The currents of space by Isaac Asimov
* A second chance at Eden by Peter F. Hamilton
* Great sky river by Gregory Benford
* Sands of Mars by Arthur C. Clarke
* The reality dysfunction Emergence by Peter F. Hamilton
* Pebble in the sky by Isaac Asimov
* Man plus by Frederik Pohl
* Olympos by Dan Simmons
* A gift from earth by Larry Niven
* A fall of moondust by Arthur C. Clarke
* Diamond dogs ; Turquoise days by Alastair Reynolds
* Distress : a novel by Greg Egan
* A hole in space by Larry Niven
* Tales of known space : the universe of Larry Niven by Larry Niven
* Tides of light by Gregory Benford
* Chanur's legacy : a novel of compact space by C. J. Cherryh
* Ring by Stephen Baxter
* Rainbows end by Vernor Vinge
* Mindstar rising by Peter F. Hamilton
* Coalescent (Destiny's Children Series) by Stephen Baxter
* Time's eye by Arthur C. Clarke
* Forty signs of rain by Kim Stanley Robinson
* Titan by Stephen Baxter
* Man-Kzin Wars, The by Larry Niven
* The Reality Dysfunction, Part 2: Expansion by Peter F. Hamilton
* Learning the world, or, The new intelligence : a scientific … by Ken MacLeod
* Newton's wake : a space opera by Ken MacLeod
* Schild's ladder by Greg Egan
* Raft by Stephen Baxter
* Gridlinked by Neal Asher
* Axiomatic by Greg Egan
* The Martians by Kim Stanley Robinson
* Antarctica by Kim Stanley Robinson
* Earthlight by Arthur C. Clarke
* Tau zero by Poul Anderson
* The peace war by Vernor Vinge
* Dark light by Ken MacLeod
* The annals of the Heechee by Frederik Pohl
* The Ascent of wonder : the evolution of hard SF by David G. Hartwell
* Sunstorm by Arthur C. Clarke
* The collected stories of Vernor Vinge by Vernor Vinge
* Cradle by Arthur C. Clarke
* COSM by Gregory Benford
* Timelike infinity by Stephen Baxter
* Strength of stones by Greg Bear
* Artifact by Gregory Benford
* Crashlander by Larry Niven
* Blindsight by Peter Watts
* The nano flower by Peter F. Hamilton
* The nine billion names of God; the best short stories of Art… by Arthur C. Clarke
* Furious gulf by Gregory Benford
* Dune by Frank Herbert
* Harvest of stars by Poul Anderson
* The patchwork girl by Larry Niven
* The Stone Canal by Ken MacLeod
* The hard SF renaissance by David G. Hartwell
* Hammered by Elizabeth Bear
* Voyage from yesteryear by James P. Hogan
* Marooned in real time by Vernor Vinge
* The hammer of God by Arthur C. Clarke
* The neutronium alchemist Conflict by Peter F. Hamilton
* A quantum murder by Peter F. Hamilton
* The neutronium alchemist Consolidation by Peter F. Hamilton
* Glasshouse by Charles Stross
* Exultant by Stephen Baxter
* Seeker by Jack McDevitt
* Teranesia : a novel by Greg Egan
* Heads by Greg Bear
* Return to Mars by Ben Bova
* Moonrise by Ben Bova
* Close to Critical by Hal Clement
* Firestar by Michael Flynn
* Flux by Stephen Baxter
* Sailing bright eternity by Gregory Benford
* Transcendent by Stephen Baxter
* Tatja Grimm's world by Vernor Vinge
* James P. Hogan's the giants novels by James P. Hogan
* Spin state by Chris Moriarty
* Worldwired by Elizabeth Bear
* Ventus by Karl Schroeder
* Cycle of fire by Hal Clement
* Luminous by Greg Egan
* Marrow by Robert Reed
* Brass man by Neal Asher
* Lady of mazes by Karl Schroeder
* The flight of the dragonfly by Robert L. Forward
* Dead lines by Greg Bear
* Starfish by Peter Watts
* Lunar Descent by Allen Steele
* Hardfought - Cascade Point: Tor Double #2 (Tor Double) by Greg Bear
* Rogue star by Michael Flynn
* Starquake by Robert L. Forward
* The seedling stars by James Blish
* The worlds of Frank Herbert by Frank Herbert
* Ten Thousand Light-Years from Home by James Tiptree
* Iceworld by Hal Clement
* The Enemy Stars by Poul Anderson
* Traces by Stephen Baxter
* Star light by Hal Clement
* Beowulf's children by Steven Barnes
* Brightness falls from the air by James Tiptree
* Virgin Planet by Poul Anderson
* The deep range by Arthur C. Clarke
* Lodestar by Michael Flynn
* The starry rift by James Tiptree
* The stars are also fire by Poul Anderson
* Giants' star by James P. Hogan
* Ancients Of Days by Paul J. McAuley
* Man-kzin Wars VI by Larry Niven
* Serpent's reach by C. J. Cherryh
* Inherit the stars by James P. Hogan
* The fleet of stars by Poul Anderson
* Child of the river : the first book of Confluence by Paul J. McAuley
* The collected stories of Arthur C. Clarke by Arthur C. Clarke
* Twistor by John Cramer
* Starfarers by Poul Anderson
* Forty thousand in Gehenna by C. J. Cherryh
* The voyage of the Space Beagle by A. E. Van Vogt
* Flatlander by Larry Niven
* The Best of Hal Clement by Clement
* Polaris by Jack McDevitt
* Rainbow Mars by Larry Niven
* Triton by Samuel R. Delany
* The boat of a million years by Poul Anderson
* Fantastic voyage II : destination brain by Isaac Asimov
* The ghost from the Grand Banks by Arthur C. Clarke
* Rogue Moon by Algis Budrys
* Man-Kzin wars III by Niven
* Deepsix by Jack McDevitt
* Angel Station by Walter Jon Williams
* Beggars & choosers by Nancy Kress
* Orbitsville by Bob Shaw
* The other side of the sky by Arthur C. Clarke
* Beyond infinity by Gregory Benford
* Chanur's homecoming by C. J. Cherryh
* Hegira by Greg Bear
* The Barsoom project by Larry Niven
* Merchanter's luck by C. J. Cherryh
* Across the sea of suns by Gregory Benford
* Gravity dreams by L. E. Modesitt Jr.
* The sky road by Ken MacLeod
* Beggars ride by Nancy Kress
* Prime number by Harry Harrison
* The gentle giants of Ganymede by James P. Hogan
* Misspent youth by Peter F. Hamilton
* The nitrogen fix by Hal Clement
* The collapsium by Wil McCarthy
* Heavy time by C. J. Cherryh
* Venus by Ben Bova
* Tripoint by C. J. Cherryh

I won't say Ringworld by Larry Niven or any of its sequels can be considered "hard sf". The whole "Dyson Sphere" theory just makes me shriver. Of course there are other authors who have used it, Consider Phlebas by Iain M.Banks for example, but each time I see it mentioned I start to cuestion each scientific achievement which appears.

Regards.

My first thought was Alistair reynolds and it is gratifying that he appeared so near the top of the tagmash pile.

as 40000 in gehenna has come up n thelist I'll add cyteen as its superb, but neither are particularly sciencey although they do cover a lot of the ground on what genetics means to be human.

Also surprisingly not mentioned is Stephen Donaldson's gap series. Not any of his other work which is all fantasy, but the excellant five books - The real story, Forbidden knowledge, Chaos and order, A dark and hungry god and this day all gods die.

9 - If it wasn't clear to people btw, these are not my lists specifically, but the general LT list from the new 'Tagmash' function.

Noted that on one of the lists, the later I think, Arthur C Clarke's 2nd novel The Sands of Mars & the collection The Other side of the sky showed up. As those was first published in the 50's the take on science is quite antiquated/dated ;-)

There are different definitions of "hard science". Taken literally, it can be restricted to using known science only. That immediately deletes any story using faster-than-light spaceships, antigravity and so on - which is to say, a large slice of the books recommended above.

Robert Forward, a physicist, wrote some hard-science books using his scientific knowledge, and so did Hal Clement (the famous Mission of Gravity).

My favorites:

Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy (and others)
Stephen Baxter's Xeelee sequence in particular but everything else I've read so far is quite good as well. I'm just starting Evolution.

I enjoyed Niven's Ringworld books (but can't figure out what happened in the last one) but don't really consider them Hard SF. I'm not sure why.

Looks like I'm gonna hafta try some Alastair Reynolds! Suggestion as to where to begin?

#14

Century Rain is a good standalone.

Chasm City and The Prefect are books in a universe which has a longer series of works. Galactic North is a collection of short stories set in that same universe.

>1 ague: The authors/books you mention, Crichton and Cook, are really more in the category of science-thrillers or techno-thrillers which are not really the same thing as hard science fiction. The thriller format is set up slightly different to create suspense and tension, and, while they often feature detailed hard science, most of the time the science and/or the scientists are the antagonists - science goes out of control or is used for evil...etc. Generally, it is defeated the world returns to the status quo. I think hard science fiction is more thoughtful, more varied and without all the breathlessness...but I'm sure some of its BIGGEST (i.e most enthusiastic) fans will step into the conversation here and take over where I have left off:-)

(...my ears are burning...)

Actually, I don't have much to add to the conversation, because I'm still open-mouthed with wonder at bluetyson's demonstration of the power of the new 'tagmash' feature.

Any suggestion I might have been about to make about any particular book has been pretty thoroughly preempted. 'Tagmash' makes good lists.

I do have one minor point to contribute, though:

It seems to me that the state-of-the-art in Hard SF has been steadily advancing over the years, and therefore the cutting-edge stuff of today (...and I'm looking at you, Greg Egan) might not be quite as accessible to the new reader as some of the 'classics' of the genre from twenty-five or fifty years ago.

Thanks for all the great information. To further refine my taste, for some reason I did not like the Mars Trilogy at all. Red Mars, Green Mars, and Blue Mars, were all easy to put down books for me. Some of these authors that I have not heard about before, are they recent books, published in the last 5 to 10 years? Again, thanks for all the great responses to this thread.

I agree with you about KSR's Mars trilogy. I read the first one, and found it to be a chore - a slow-moving plot with characters I didn't relate to. I didn't bother with the other two, but I'm told they're even more like that. More like a textbook on Mars colonisation.

It's an unfortunate tendency to regard the worth of modern SF (and fantasy) to be linked to the story length. Personally, I'd much rather read a crisp, exciting 200-pager than have the same content padded out to 400 or even 600 pages - which seems to be very common nowadays.

If you haven't heard of them, then yeah, it is probably recent, presuming that Asimov, Clarke, Niven, Haldeman, Clement et. al. are familiar, and not who you mean. Not all of them would be in 10 years, but quite a bit around that mark.

>18 ague: & 19, I couldn't agree more about KSR's Mars trilogy. And I thought it was just me! If a novel doesn't have a character (or a handful of characters) that I care about I find it really difficult to read. I guess KSR was trying to make Mars itself the central protagonist. It didn't work for me.

I haven't made any suggestions here because I'm suddenly finding it difficult to define "hard SF". Avaland (16) pointed out that Michael Crichton and his ilk are actually thrillers, not really hard SF.

Looking through the tagmash list I see an awful lot of stuff I've read and wouldn't consider hard SF: I love Jack McDevitt but there's not a lot of hard science in his work (a lot of mystery and adventure and nifty characters, though). I've read a fair amount of Ben Bova, especially the grand tour stuff, and there's not much hard science in those either. I consider Dune to be fantasy-SF crossover -- epic and excellent and a must read for any true SF fan but definitely not hard SF in my book. And I was pretty surprised to see John Scalzi in the tagmash list. Never would have considered him hard SF.

Larry Niven, Greg Bear, Charlie Stross, CJ Cherryh, and Nancy Kress all resonate as hard SF to me, but I can't begin to tell you why them and not others.

So, if hard science isn't what makes hard SF, what is hard SF?

Thanks for the list of online works, bluetyson! Been a while since I read any of Greg Egan's works. I'm sure there's something in your list I haven't read yet!

About the tag mash: that's not really what these mashes are for though, are they? Anything that's tagged 'hard sf' will most likely be sf anyway. Tag mashes are more for if you want to find hard sf books that have something to do with something unrelated, like 'france' (http://www.librarything.com/tag/france,hard%20sf). Of course, you can tag mash whatever you want, don't get me wrong. I just think the tag 'hard sf' suffices for the purposes at hand.

"So, if hard science isn't what makes hard SF, what is hard SF?"

That's a matter of opinion - as I indicated in post 13.

The usual flip response used to be that hard SF was anything with spaceships, but then you get Schmitz' wonderful 'Witches of Karres', which has those - plus witches and magic...

>1 ague: for something along the lines of the Cook and Crichton, you might like Tess Gerritsen's "Gravity" (I'm not even going to attempt that touchstone). It's a bio-thriller set on the space station.

Come to think of it, did we add John Cramer (father of Kathryn Cramer, btw) to our list of scientist-authors?

My favorite Hard SF is by Hal Clement, specifically Mission of Gravity. I agree with several previous posters about not being impressed with KSR's Mars trilogy; I put it (Red Mars) down after about 150 pages.

avaland, interesting point. Of the list(s) posted (and let me throw my vote in with others and say Ringworld, = not so much hard sf) I'm mostly familiar with Watts' Rifters series, which begins with Starfish. I'd say that these books are pretty thrilling. They're not overt thrillers like Michael Crichton's stuff, and Starfish is driven by mind games rather than the action you see more of in its sequel, the excellent Maelstrom. So I took a look at what wikipedia had to say on the matter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_science_fiction). For those interested:
"Hard science fiction is a category of science fiction characterized by an emphasis on scientific or technical detail, or on scientific accuracy, or on both. The term was first used in print in 1957 by P. Schuyler Miller, book reviewer for Astounding Science Fiction.(1). The complementary term, soft science fiction (a back formation that first appeared in the late 1970s(2)) by contrast refers to science fiction in which science is not featured, or the science is incorrect or made-up. The term sometimes also contrasts the "hardness" of the sciences used in the story: the "hard" sciences are quantitative or material-based disciplines, such as physics, chemistry, and astronomy; while the more "soft" sciences are social sciences, such as sociology, anthropology, or psychology. (Stories featuring engineering tend to be categorized as hard SF, although technically engineering is not a science.). Neither term is part of a rigorous taxonomy — instead they are rule-of-thumb ways of characterizing stories that reviewers and commentators have found useful. The categorization "hard SF" represents a position on a scale from "softer" to "harder", not a binary classification."

Ok, then!

And here are the authors mentioned there:

* Poul Anderson
* Eleanor Arnason
* Catherine Asaro
* Neal Asher
* Isaac Asimov
* Steven Barnes
* Stephen Baxter
* Greg Bear
* Gregory Benford
* James Blish
* Ben Bova
* David Brin
* Lois McMaster Bujold
* F.M. Busby
* John W. Campbell
* C. J. Cherryh
* Ted Chiang
* Arthur C. Clarke
* Hal Clement
* Brenda Cooper
* Greg Egan
* Michael Flynn
* Robert L. Forward
* Tom Godwin
* Joe Haldeman
* Peter F. Hamilton
* Robert A. Heinlein
* James P. Hogan
* Dean Ing
* Donald M. Kingsbury
* Nancy Kress
* Geoffrey A. Landis
* Paul Levinson
* Ken MacLeod
* Paul McAuley
* Larry Niven
* Frederik Pohl
* Jerry Pournelle
* Alastair Reynolds
* Kim Stanley Robinson
* Rudy Rucker
* Robert J. Sawyer
* Karl Schroeder
* Charles Sheffield
* Joan Slonczewski
* George O. Smith
* Brian Stableford
* Allen Steele
* Bob Shaw
* Bruce Sterling
* Charles Stross
* Michael Swanwick
* James Tiptree, Jr.
* John Varley
* Jules Verne
* Vernor Vinge
* Peter Watts
* H. G. Wells
* Connie Willis

I know I'm not adding MUCH new to the conversation, but it's of interest to me, as I only encountered the term in the last year, on boingboing.net, the excellent blog to which Cory Doctorow contributes - and where I first heard of John Scalzi.

In short, ague, I loved Watts' Rifters books (more the first 2 than the last 2) and I'd say they were suspenseful - give 'em a whirl!

Oh, and bluetyson, thanks, I didn't know about those online Watts stories!

avaland, good call on Gravity. The tagmash science fiction, thriller pulls it up along with other stuff like The Footprints of God by Greg Iles. Interestingly, it also pulls up Greg Bear's later works but not his earlier ones which I think is accurate. That mash puts Michael Crichton works at the head of the list.

Some thoughts. As a double social science major, I find the whole hard/soft distinction rather loaded. To me, there's an implicit value judgment of "hard" over "soft." Even though it's more words, I tend to use "natural science" and "social science" to discuss the continuum at issue. Plus, the distinction can be a trap when talking about something like the Mars Trilogy, which to me anyway, is heavily influenced by both natural and social science.

Greg Bear
Greg Egan
Stephen Baxter
Gregory Benford

I've never thought of the "hard" in "hard sf" as being related to the one in "hard science".

My working definition of hard sf is this:

- The science in the story is plausible
- The book delves deeply into the details of how the science actually works
- These details matter to the story

Together, these qualities mean that SF is not just used as a setting, but that the story is about the science in a significant way.

I don't think the science in question has to be physics. As an example, I present Mother of Demons. It's hard sf that goes deep into sociology and biology for its story. It does not rely on high technology at all.

I thought the first book and a half of Robinson's Mars trilogy were great. It went rapidly downhill for me after that, to the point I skimmed the last half of Blue Mars. Those books could've been half the length each and not lost anything crucial.

#31 - you lasted out better than I did. I managed to finish Red Mars, but found it such hard work that I didn't bother with the other two.

I really LIKED the Red Mars etc., series, though.... I'm pretty sure Larry Niven invented what is now called hard SF, and I certainly loved that stuff; Protector and The Ringworld Engineers are still on my once-a-year list. I realize that 'hard SF' can be applied to a lot of the 'sf-with-rivets' put out earlier, but Niven was the first to really define it, and Joe Haldeman, John Varley, and Gregory Benford closely followed. AND these guys can also write.

I think the whole 'new age' rebellion sort of muddied the water, at lest for me, and there are so many REALLY good writers now that 'hard SF' is a lot harder to define. Not sure if this isn't for the better. Lots more fun to argue about it now.

I would say that hard science fiction may extend science theories or even have new ones - eg hyperspace, psionics - but the engineering would work in that universe and the story doesn't accidently violate existing reality.

Robert Charles Wilson writes good hard sf, in my opinion. I'd also look at the writers who submit to Analog (yes, it's short fiction, but they serialize novels) and have books. Off the top of my head: Jerry Oltion, Joe Haldeman's Camouflage was serialized a while ago, Karl Schroeder's Sun of Suns and Queen of Candesce were also serialized.
I also recommend Robert Reed and Carl Frederick as great writers who don't get as much publicity as they deserve

One name that seems to be missing is
Michael Flynn his book Eifelheim
is a great read. It is about an alien space ship that crashes in medieval Germany. His older works Firstar, Lodestar etc. are pure sci fi in the old sense of the word, before they combined sci fi and fantasy in the 70's

I picked up a book last week in Barnes and Noble (literally- couldn't afford to buy it), called "The Tau Ceti Agenda" by Travis S Taylor. Seems to meet the criteria put down by Amtep. Lyrically, it might not be everyone's cuppa, but I do recommend it.

>37 Truthseeker013: yes, concur that Amtep has the basics.

'soft science' hard SF candidates:

Dune
Starship Troopers (lots of hard science, too)
Stranger In a Strange Land
The Dispossessed
anything by Cherryh
Foundation

The main themes of all these are religion/history/politics. With rivets.

I've also noticed that all of these are also considered extremely controversial.. hmmm....*smirk*

#33 Hey, what's this "new age revolution" you're talking about? Any resources on the web about this? I'm a bit allergic to new age so I'd like to know what to avoid ;-) Although, I did enjoy the Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons and that gets a bit newish ageish at the end.

>38 wyrdchao:

Well, The Dispossessed does have quite a bit of physics, too. There is a lot of politics, I grant you, and it is one of the most intriguing parts of the story, but it is really the background for the main story, which is about physics.

>40 sussabmax: well, yeah, but... you didn't think the contrast between the social systems on the two planets wasn't rigorous? I remember the physics, vaguely, but what really sticks in my mind is the dystopian conditions on Anarres.

As for the 'new age': this probably deserves a different thread but here's the gist:

About 1960, when Starship Troopers came out and stirred up everything in the SF 'ghetto' so wonderfully, quite a few writers rebelled from the 'SF with rivets' school the John W. Campbell had created and decided that SF needed to become something that English professors could appreciate. And maybe improve the general quality of writing in the field, while they were at it.

Some of the leaders of this movement in the sixties and early seventies included Harlan Ellison, Damon Knight, Robert Silverberg, Samuel R. Delany, John Brunner, Le Guin etc. etc. (This is off the top of my head so I'm sure I'm missing a lot of big names here.)

The whole revolution comes down to whether you think SF and mainstream fiction are really two different things, with completely different goals, or not.

*Does* this deserve another thread?

Yes, I thought the contrast between the systems was very rigorous, and she definitely made an interesting point about how even an anarchic society can fall into a bureaucracy without vigilance, but placed in context of her entire universe, the creation of the ansible for instantaneous is incredibly important. I didn't mean that the physics was more important than the politics and sociology, but that it was the main story arc. The story was about the physics that was developed in that particular sociological setting. But of course, stories are meaningless without the context of the society in which they take place, so it was important. It was a fully developed setting that drew me back, really. I read that book again because I wanted to read about the setting, and I was kind of surprised to discover that the story was about physics, since that isn't what stuck with me as much. But it was definitely a major part.

I can totally see why you would place it in the religion/history/politics category, though. It is so well described that it is very striking. It's hard to describe physics in a way that haunts you years later ;-).

(wrydchao: a minor correction - the 'term of art' used at the time was "New Wave science fiction"... "New Age" is something else again....)

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wave_%28science_fiction%29

>43 AsYouKnow_Bob: ahh, yup, yer right. I think that occurred to me about 5 minutes after I logged off last time....

Common thing with me. I'm slightly dyslexic (as you can tell from my spellnig) and thing like left/right he/she (pretty much anything there is two of) really get me turned around sometimes.

I'm the type of reader who can NEVER, EVER, even after 100 re-readings, quote something exactly; and yet... I can see the whole story as a sort of movie in my head from the first page to the last even if I've only read it once. *groan-smirk*

#41

The move to less nuts & bolts SF started way before Starship Troopers. For example More Than Human by Theodore Sturgeon was published in book form in 1953. The same year as Blish's A Case Of Conscience. You could even add in The Space Merchants and Gladiator-at-Law by Pohl and Kornbluth and A Mirror For Observers by Pangborn. all in the 50s.

Although less "nuts & bolts SF" didn't dominate as it did during the New Wave there is plenty of evidence that Starship Troopers wasn't as revolutionary as you claim. That the genre evolved after the war into a more sophisticated one, and that evolution starts to bear fruit in the early 50s

I didn't say Starship Troopers was particularly revolutionary, what I am saying is that, considering Heinlein's footprint on SF at that point in history, anything he wrote was read by EVERYONE in the field (he was by far the top selling author in the field at that time); he KNEW the book was controversial and, would be rejected, and also knew other publishers were champing at the bit for Scribner's to drop the ball.

I agree that there was LOTS of what we would now call 'new wave' in the 50's or even before; I suspect that if you read some of 'Anson McDonald's (hee-hee) shorts for Astounding in the early forties you'd agree.

Starship Troopers was a catalyst of discontent, not necessarily revolutionary *in itself*.

Fair enough but the move towards a form which was more accepted by the literati had been going on for quite some time. I can name quite a few novels which had won decent reviews outside the SF magazines.

I also wonder somewhat about "the top selling author in the field" remark? John Wyndham wasn't doing badly at that stage you know. Triffids had been constantly in print for many years and was a bestseller both sides of the Atlantic. Certainly in the UK Wyndham would have been far more well known among the general public than Heinlein (or any other US SF writer). Why is the UK important in this respect? Because for many the new-wave (as a movement) was centred in Britain with Michael Moorcock's editorship of New Worlds. But even there it was just an exaggeration of previous trends.

>57 "the top selling author in the field"

top selling = making most money

Once again, read the wikipedia article on Heinlein:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Heinlein


Here is a quote:

He was the first writer to break into mainstream, general magazines such as The Saturday Evening Post, in the late 1940s, with unvarnished science fiction. He was among the first authors of bestselling, novel-length science fiction in the modern, mass-market era.


Obvious slicks pay much better than pulps. Also, he sold 16-20 novels between 1951-1962, and ALL of them had been reprinted several times by 1970...

I also know that he was the first SF writer to get a six-figure advance for a novel.

Once again, if you think what is in Wikipedia is erroneous, you are welcome to do your own research and correct it.

----

What I am NOT saying, again, is that money means anything at all. It is merely indicative. If someone is making a lot of money, selling a lot of books, that means he's doing something right.

Wyndham had also broken into the mainstream general fiction magazines (Colliers in his case) in the late 1940s.

Also we were talking prior to Troopers - so the majority of Heinlein's novels were juveniles.

Note - I am not saying that Heinlein wasn't fantastically successful, or even was less successful in one particular market. What I am saying is that it isn't as clear cut as you make out.

Wyndham's sales were absolutely massive (esp. in the UK and ex-Empire), so much so he stopped bothering with short work after Triffids.

No-one will really know who was the top-selling author was at the point and it probably differs on how you count. But by the end of the 50s Wyndham, Bradbury, Heinlein and Clarke had all had some degree of success outside the tradition fields.

>49 andyl: Fair enough. We can agree to disagree. I suspect I am biased because I know almost nothing about UK SF at all; I've read some Wyndham short stories (and liked them) certainly heard of 'Triffids'.

I think I should have qualified my statements above to say, 'in the United States'... *choking down crow*..*grin*