SantaThing 2015: Feedback & improvements for next year

I'm still finishing up placing orders for SantaThing, but wanted to go ahead and leave the floor open for any feedback/thoughts on how SantaThing's going so far for everyone.

Last year, there were a lot of comments regarding the matching of Santas—I've seen many more mentions from those who are happy with their matches this year, so I think we've done better in that department, although we're never perfect.

I tend to make notes as we go along, on what I want to do differently next year, and this year is no exception. This year's sign-up period was also significantly longer than last, which was a popular request. Although next year, I know that I need to get the whole thing started a bit earlier, to allow for at least one full weekend during book-picking, and to make sure we're meeting more Holiday shipping deadlines.

So, what else have you got? How's SantaThing going for you? What worked well, what didn't?

I suppose I should preface this with "This is not really a complaint." Actually, I found the whole thing rather amusing and was cracking myself up while looking for books.

My Santee and I have a large number of books in common, but we seem to feel very differently about them. My 5-star reads were his/her 2-star reads and vice versa. So I had a lot of "I loved x, and y is like x, but you hated x, so I probably shouldn't give you y."

Like I said, I found it more entertaining than anything else. But sometimes just because people have a lot of books in common doesn't mean they actually have similar reading tastes. Not that the system can really take that into account very easily, I suspect.

My Santee and I have a large number of books in common, but we seem to feel very differently about them. My 5-star reads were his/her 2-star reads and vice versa.

So give them something you hated!

I seriously considered that, but there are too many reasons one could hate a book.

1. When a LTer buys a SantaThing for someone and that person's name follows the member's name, ie, LTMember (GifteeName), the link to the member's profile page is broken and it would be really helpful to have a valid link somewhere on the SantaThing Gift page.

2. I have no idea what might be involved in programming such a thing, but it would be amazing if, after the files are opened on December 25, links to one's SantaThings (santa and santee) could be sent to participants' profile pages: it would make it really easy to send thank you notes. Speaking of which, thank you LT Elves for the tremendous effort you put into making SantaThing one of the very best things of the holiday season.

>5 Jenni_Canuck: First off, thanks for the thoughtful feedback! A couple notes on your ideas:

1. The reason we leave this not-linked is to avoid giving folks the false impression that the LTMember's catalog is where their Santee's books are cataloged, because that's just not the case, most of the time. We leave it up to the member who signed up for the gift to include links to their catalog/collections, in the cases where it's a spouse, or parent, who has those books in a specific collection of their own library. It's worth thinking about other ways we can make these particular types of SantaThing entries work better, though.

2. That's a really good idea, and maybe something we can do as early as this year. We definitely have the data to back it up, and I don't think it would be too tricky to implement. That said, it is a really busy time for us right now, and I'd need developer help on it, so I can't make promises, other than that I'll try for this year—next year, for sure.

For the second year in a row, one of my Santee's requested books from a foreign language Amazon site. I'm not sure what the solution is, because I don't think that if you requested Amazon.de, you should automatically have to buy books for someone who also requested Amazon.de, but both years I've found it difficult to navigate the foreign language site, and still manage to get what I think I want to get them. Last time it happened was more difficult than this time, as the books were requested to be in the foreign language.

I remember this being requested last year, but I'd like to reiterate it. I'd love to get a compendium of SantaThings past. Being able to look by year would be great, as there have been great comments on both my profiles and on the profiles of people I selected for. One of my Santee's in recent years wanted zombie books and there were comments for some really great looking books on their SantaThing page, and I looked into the books and found some that I thought would be interesting, but of course I neglected to write them down anywhere, and now that I'd be interested in trying to find some of those, I have no way of remembering what they are. Being able to go back any time and look at old SantaThings would be great.

I really appreciate you attempting ebook sources other than Amazon this year, even if my desired one didn't work out.

I definitely appreciate all the work you guys do that goes into this every year. =)

>7 bestem: One of the reasons I don't participate is that living in Austria, I would end up pretty much having to use Amazon.de which is where shipping would be free. I personally use Amazon.co.uk because English language books are cheaper there, which offsets the postage charges, and the selection is much better. And I find it easier to navigate in English. (Yes, I read German, too, but there are lots of great bookstares in Vienna. I can buy books with no hassle, even order them if need be.)

I use amazon.de and there is an option to switch to English under the search box.

>9 RidgewayGirl: I did that, but not everything translates, I had to keep going to Google to figure things out. It's not the end of the world if nothing changes. I just thought if they wanted feedback I'd let them know that it's harder to navigate the non-English sites if it's not something you normally do.

I actually thought the shorter picking window this year worked well (less time for dithering on my part!) but it would have been nice if it had included a weekend day. This time of year is so busy, it's hard to find the time to thoughtfully sit down and look things up.

A suggestion for next year's card exchange:

Let people choose to send cards but not receive them. I'd be happy to send holiday cards, but don't want to provide my address in order to receive them - I don't want my online pseudonym to be easily associated with my real name, and publicly associating my address with my pseudonym would do that. (I have provided my address to Early Reviewers, but I decided that was worth the risk.)

I was going to make another suggestion regarding date choice for next year's holiday cards to incorporate a larger range of winter holidays, but it turns out Hanukkah is late enough next year that it won't be an issue (it starts on Dec. 24 next year!)

It would still be a good idea to do it earlier as well, so those who care about the dates the cards arrive don't choose not to partake.

My cards should have been sent at least a week ago. Also US cards for Europe should have been sent then, with other parts of the world even earlier, for some countries as early as December 1!

Your feedback on the Card Exchange is well-taken, but I'd like to keep the focus of this thread to SantaThing, as the two are independent events/projects. Feel free to post Holiday Card Exchange things in the Card Exchange thread.

I would definitely like to see SantaThing start up earlier, just to make sure those books get out on time. Just reading your comments was stressing me out Loranne, so I suspect you feel the same?

I really don't have a lot of complaints beyond that. I understand that the matching system is what it is, not everyone is going to get a perfect match. I've dealt with the language issue before myself. I was fortunate they were asking for books in English, but I couldn't read the books in their library so I struggled to determine which books they had. Then an LT friend gave me a great tip, just add the person to your private watch list, they don't know you are "watching" and they will be listed in the "members" section on a book's page if they have it, even if it is in a different language. Maybe mentioning that on the help page, if it isn't already, will help people with that issue in the future.

You have mentioned making a list of books given? Or books most suggested? That would be lovely to have. It could be for all years or each year? I don't know, but it would be fun to look at.

I was wishing I had kept track of my Santees (a funny name for me, since I have relatives with the last name of Santee) and my Santas over the years. I've tried to tag the books given. I think I missed the first year, but I didn't think of listing the giver. Or of listing the books I've chosen and the giftee. All fun and probably meaningless statistics in the large picture of life. :)

>17 MrsLee: I think there's a way to look all that up, although I don't know how. I've tagged my books each year, even though it's a little embarrassing to read a book in July tagged "SantaThing."

>17 MrsLee: I'll definitely be making a list of this year's picks, once I've placed all the orders. I just finished all paper copy SantaThing orders last night, and am moving on to Kindle and iBooks. Books given is much easier than books suggested, but I'd like to do a list of both. I'm still mulling over whether I should put them together in one list, or have one for books gifted, and another for books suggested. Currently leaning toward one list to rule them all.

The information from previous years—who we matched together, and probably what books were picked, too—is definitely still in our database, but it's not currently visible on LT.com. I'd certainly like to make it available for you all to see, but I'll need to chat with Tim on how best to do that. So, realistically, it'll be a couple months, minimum, before we're able to get to that, but it is on my list.

>15 lorannen:

Sorry, I thought that thread was for this year's exchange. I'm aware that they're separate projects, but thought you'd prefer to keep "suggestions for next year" separate from "this year".

First off - I really love LT's SantaThing just the way it is, and really, really appreciate all the Christmas-elvish hard work that goes into spreading the magic (and especially the efforts made to make sure everything works even when people, like me, mess up following the simplest of instructions). So this really isn't a request for 'improvement', just an idea that might add to the fun and choices, and might make it easier to find 'special books' for recipients... but how about adding a second hand on line bookseller to those places where the books can be ordered from? Some people really like having books which have their own history, and certainly it would add a range of out-of-print titles and special editions to the options? Or in the case of more common books, it could make the bucks go further. I know some people don't like second hand books, so perhaps that would have to be an extra option - to opt out. Most second hand sellers I know give bespoke handling to on line orders, so they may even be prepared to offer gift wrapping or something extra. I know we would (but our inventory is probably far too small to make a viable partner) - but one of the biggies, like Barter Books??? Just a thought. As I said, I love it just as it is anyway.

No, the big problem with used books isn't that they are disliked by some people, but that there's no guarantee that the book is still there when it's time to order it.

Mmm..you have a point. I know I've ordered second hand books online before only to be told, sometimes days later, that the book is no longer available - especially happens with those sellers who have a shop as well as selling on line. But I wonder if it might be possible to work with a partner to iron out those wrinkles...I can think of several ways we could do it so I'm guessing others could too. But that might just make it all too much complicated.

Lorannen is already having problems with ordering because prices change, books are unavailable even just with new books and the big booksellers. She doesn't need more complications when doing the ordering.

>21 BookAddictUK: Yeah, it's a really nice idea, and we'd love to be able to order secondhand books for SantaThing, but for reasons mostly covered in >22 anglemark: and >21 BookAddictUK: it's just not feasible. Secondhand book prices and stock are less stable, and it adds a layer of complication for Santas in book-picking, as well. Unfortunately, I just don't see secondhand books making it into SantaThing any time soon.

I mentioned this in the SantaThing thread, but just posting it here so it's easier to find later.

I'd love to have a parallel Christmas Gift Suggestion thingy. In my head, it would look similar to the SantaThing page where you could make a little post with information about the family member/friend you are having trouble choosing books for and people could make suggestions!

>25 lorannen: lorannen: I see what you mean. Thanks for thinking about it, and taking the time to reply. If you're okay with this, I might give it some thought and see if we (ie our little bookstore) can come up with a way around those issues. But I do see how it's really difficult and complicated. And thanks to >22 anglemark: anglemark: too I think >24 MarthaJeanne: MarthaJeanne is probably right though.

One year I think there was a page for Santathing statistics -- which books were most given etc. I thought that was fascinating and would love to see it again. It would be interesting to see which books were most recommended, too, although compiling that might be more trouble than it would be worth.

Have to thank you all at LT for continuing to make sure that the Santa Thing works as well as it does. Each year that I have taken part, my secret presents have been great choices. This year, the person I had to buy for was by far the easiest, so I'm guessing it was a lot to do with how well all the LT elves matched us. My only tiny issue is never being able to find who to thank,ie my own Secret Santa. Maybe they like being anonymous, or maybe I'm just useless at finding the right page or link. That said, a really big THANK YOU to you all.

>29 Carolann54: Your SantaThing page is http://www.librarything.com/santathing_thing.php?id=180. There you will find the name of your Santa and any comments and suggestions that were made.

I think that people whose SantaThing gifts are expected to be arriving late should be notified about when to expect them.

I have still not received my SantaThing gifts, and have not heard anything specifically from LT staff about when to expect the books even though I have reported earlier that they have not arrived. I had requested that my books be ordered via amazon.com

Am I one of the people who should not expect my books until January 8th (which is tomorrow)?

Also, which thread am I supposed to be reporting non receipt on? This is the second thread I'm posting on today. I even sent a note to Loranne on her message board last week, but have not heard anything.

Another suggestion: since Loranne is so busy with SantaThing in December with very little help from the rest of the LT staff, I suggest not having the LT Early Review program in December. Just suspend it a month. Loranne is also responsible for that program.

>31 sallylou61: For what it's worth, Loranne gets many (many!) profile messages with ER and such, and it's easier for her to respond to you if you can email her directly: loranne@librarything.com. I mentioned on another thread you posted that she's unfortunately been sick the last couple of days, but I'm sure she can take a close look at your order when she's back and well (hopefully!) next week. Thanks for your patience!

>32 sallylou61: LTER is free to participate in and therefore open to anyone, even if they can't afford to put in money. Also, the publishers who offer books for the program often have specific time frames for their release in the hopes of garnering reviews before official release. I think everyone involved would be upset if LTER were suspended for even a month.

I think it would be important next year to make it a lot clearer that LT does not guarantee that everything will run smoothly, and that while they will attempt to do the ordering in good time, delivery is subject to the vagaries of the store, the weather, and the carrier.

>35 MarthaJeanne: I thought they were pretty clear about that this year.

>36 MrsLee: Agreed, this year and every year. The information has been up there for as long as I've participated.

>35 MarthaJeanne:
I agree that it would be wise to spell out things a bit more. Although the help thread or whatever it is says that the books might not arrive on time, it suggests that the problem is mainly with European vendors. Some of us have U.S. vendors, and have not received our shipments. I think it would be helpful to:

1. say how long to wait before questioning when one's books are expected to arrive -- i.e. one week, 2 weeks, a month, around Valentine's Day

2. Stating that there is a slight chance that one may not receive their books, and thus lose all of their money. (LT staff may have some idea as to how often this has happened.)

3. Have a SantaThing website similar to the Category challenge website
https://www.librarything.com/groups/2015categorychalleng
and have all the SantaThing threads attached to it. I have had trouble finding some of the different threads concerning SantaThing such as this site for feedback, the site for reporting receipts (the SantaThing map), etc.

Thanks.

>38 sallylou61: Re: #2, No one who has participated in SantaThing has EVER lost their money. There is no chance of that happening.

>38 sallylou61: Where do you get the many in "Many of us have U.S. vendors, and have not received our shipments" from?

>40 bestem: Maybe I should have said some of us -- there have been other posts on the thread about receiving in addition to mine. Unfortunately, we have not had any info from LT staff saying that the books from vendor x are expected to arrive late by such and such a date. I have changed the wording in #38. Still, the main point is that it can happen in the U.S. in addition to elsewhere. I think the instructions are misleading.

Also, I have not heard anything from LT staff about how many have not received their books so that I don't know whether I am one of only a few or many. If there are many, it would be good to know how soon we should report that we still have not received our orders. If there are only a few, I think it would be appropriate to report it again now.

>39 norabelle414: How do you know this? Are you an LT staff member. If LT does not refund money for orders that have gone astray, it seems logical that one could lose their money. I know that packages go astray; my sister mailed a package home when she was on a trip, and somehow it got sent to the lost mail area, and she was not able to get it back. If there is any chance of losing one's money, I think it should be stated.

>41 sallylou61: You're not going to lose your money, if your books have gone astray, LT will ask them to replace the package, this has happened to me a couple of time, once in the Book Depocalypse, and once before when one of my books didn't arrive, and orders with Amazon and Book Depository were replaced.

I get that you're annoyed, but you won't lose out and know that you know that Lorannen's off sick, give her a chance to come back in as when she does she'll look at your books and sort out what's happened and, if necessary, get replacement books for you.

>41 sallylou61: How do you know that this has happened? Everything that I have ever seen from LT staff as long as I've been here tells me that they would never accept money without giving what they promised in return. I don't think it's fair to accuse them of stealing when you don't have any evidence of that.

In the very worst-case scenario, anyone who does not receive their books can file a complaint with PayPal and PayPal almost always sides with the buyer.

I am sorry that you have not received your books when you expected them, but I am sure that Loranne will get them to you, or give you a refund, as soon as she is well again.

>41 sallylou61: Also, I have not heard anything from LT staff about how many have not received their books
Because they don't track every shipment. The only information they know about whether or not we receive our books is what we tell them. People taking part in the voluntary arrivals thread, and people saying that they haven't received their books yet in other threads. If they do find out someone hasn't received their books, long past when they should have, then they can look into it more.

>41 sallylou61: Unfortunately, we have not had any info from LT staff saying that the books from vendor x are expected to arrive late by such and such a date.
Why are you even assuming that they would have this information? There is no indication at all for as far as I can see that this is more than an isolated case. There is no indication that Amazon even has this information. If Amazon hasn't contacted lorannen saying there was a general problem, I would assume it isn't general and see how to solve the individual cases. Which I'm sure she'll do once she gets back to work.

If LT does not refund money for orders that have gone astray, it seems logical that one could lose their money. I know that packages go astray; my sister mailed a package home when she was on a trip, and somehow it got sent to the lost mail area, and she was not able to get it back. If there is any chance of losing one's money, I think it should be stated.
And since it is NOT stated, there is no reason to be alarmist about it. If you have been following this thread a bit, you will have seen that lorannen has sent people new books when their Santa made a mistake in picking them, even when all the disclaimers inform us that they are not liable for this. That means it is NOT AT ALL LOGICAL to assume anyone could loose money over this. Even if this would not be resolved with Amazon, I am sure LT will resolve it somehow.

And what instructions exactly do you find misleading?
>38 sallylou61: Although the help thread or whatever it is says that the books might not arrive on time, it suggests that the problem is mainly with European vendors. Where does it say this?
And if it really says that somewhere, 'mainly' does not mean'all'.
>41 sallylou61: Still, the main point is that it can happen in the U.S. in addition to elsewhere.
How could you even think that that would not be the case? What, US vendors are so good that they never experience delays or loose a package?

>43 norabelle414:, Lose money/not refund money is not equal to stealing, and stealing clearly is not what @sallylou61 was implying.

>45 zjakkelien: Amazon tracks shipments. LT has the information because the orders are placed through their Amazon account, not members' Amazon accounts. A quick check of the package tracking on the order is all that's required here. Frankly, staff other than Loranne should be able to do this, unless she is the only staff member with the Amazon password.

Sally's asking questions on here because Loranne didn't respond to her PM. It's not the member's fault that Loranne was out sick, nor is it the member's fault that she didn't know Loranne was sick until January 8th.

>46 LibraryPerilous: The fact that she keeps being negative about the lack of response, after knowing that Lorannen will get back to her after she's no longer out sick, is entirely Sally's fault, though.

>47 bestem: In her defense, we are all invested in SantaThing, emotionally as well as financially.

Sallylou61, have you looked at your SantaThing entry and seen what books you will get? The times mine have come late (very late that one year) I looked at what I was getting and was able to eagerly anticipate their arrival. Knowing what would arrive in my mailbox made the wait endurable. You will get those books.

>46 LibraryPerilous: Ah, I didn't realize that, thanks.

>48 RidgewayGirl: Oh, I do understand that. I just think almost a dozen posts stating essentially the same thing, in 48 hours, is a little much.

>47 bestem: I am NOT trying to be negative. I am extremely concerned about the whole staffing situation concerning the SantaThing, and Loranne's having so much work to do. In my opinion, Loranne put in numerous hours during the holidays, and I certainly hope that did not cause her illness.

I was trying to make suggestions about improvements, particularly re when to expect late books.

I realize that SantaThing is not for eveyone. I acknowledge that I might be too thin-skinned about criticism, and accept that I probably should not be participating in SantaThing which has become a source of misery instead of joy. This has definitely been a learning experience, both in how cruel some people can be and how kind others are.

>46 LibraryPerilous: and >48 RidgewayGirl: Thanks to you both, Diana and Kay for your support.

Kay, I checked my SantaThing thread on Christmas and sent my Secret Santa, who lives in Norway, a message. We had a nice brief online chat about Norway which I have visited twice in the past two years. Incidentally, if I remember correctly, you gave him suggestions of books which I might enjoy. Many thanks to you.

>51 sallylou61:

I am NOT trying to be negative.

Well, you're doing a very good job of it without trying.

Suggesting that the solution to something less than 100% satisfaction with a program that brought many people joy is to cancel it altogether isn't just taking your ball and going home, it's taking a bulldozer to the playing field so that nobody else can bring their own ball and play, either.

I'm sorry that your books were delayed. I do think that for you personally the best solution is to sit out SantaThing in future years and buy your own books, so that you are in complete control and have complete knowledge of precisely which books you are getting and when they will arrive.