1asurbanipal
Really written in antiquity.
I read Gilgamesh, but it was not very realistic.
The Odyssey? Some books from India or China?
Something from Ancient Rome?
I need many details from everyday life. But books like Plutarch are boring. Suetonius was better and Procopius.
I tried Greek plays, comedies, but they are only full of jokes for the crowd.
I read Gilgamesh, but it was not very realistic.
The Odyssey? Some books from India or China?
Something from Ancient Rome?
I need many details from everyday life. But books like Plutarch are boring. Suetonius was better and Procopius.
I tried Greek plays, comedies, but they are only full of jokes for the crowd.
2Guanhumara
If you are reading Aristophanes and not getting the political debate that underlies the satire {particularly Lysistrata), that's as bad as saying Gogol's The Government Inspector is 'about' a confidence trickster!
For ideological reasons, the Romans set their plays notionally in classical Greece, but the manners and mores are Roman. I'd particularly recommend Captivi and Miles Gloriosus by Plautus, in The Pot of Gold and Other Plays.
For ideological reasons, the Romans set their plays notionally in classical Greece, but the manners and mores are Roman. I'd particularly recommend Captivi and Miles Gloriosus by Plautus, in The Pot of Gold and Other Plays.
3asurbanipal
Herodotus has some good parts, for sure, e.g., on Babylon. Eyewitness account:
Herodotus's eye-witness accounts indicate that he traveled in Egypt in association with Athenians, probably some time after 454 BC or possibly earlier, after an Athenian fleet had assisted the uprising against Persian rule in 460–454 BC. He probably traveled to Tyre next and then down the Euphrates to Babylon. (Wikipedia)
But from present-day Turkey it was not so far away.
Scholars don't believe he was in Babylon:
https://rambambashi.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/common-errors-3-herodotus-in-babylo...
"There is a reason why it is fashionable to ridicule Herodotus. Have you actually read his anthropological sections on Egypt, Libya and the Scythians? So he got a few things wrong, so did Newton and just about every other scientist, historian, anthropologist and writer who ever tried to construct a record of anything. Why is he singled out as the father of lies? Aristotle thought worms could spontaneously self generate. He is not ridiculed because of it, he is hailed as the first great biologist."
In comments for:
http://winjah.blogspot.com/2012/03/crazy-tales-from-herodotus.html (three tales)
Strabo was maybe the real antique traveler:
Strabo's life was characterized by extensive travels. He journeyed to Egypt and Kush, as far west as coastal Tuscany and as far south as Ethiopia in addition to his travels in Asia Minor and the time he spent in Rome. Travel throughout the Mediterranean and Near East, especially for scholarly purposes, was popular during this era and was facilitated by the relative peace enjoyed throughout the reign of Augustus (27 BC – AD 14). He moved to Rome in 44 BC, and stayed there, studying and writing, until at least 31 BC. In 29 BC, on his way to Corinth (where Augustus was at the time), he visited the island of Gyaros in the Aegean Sea. Around 25 BC, he sailed up the Nile until reaching Philae,n 2 after which point there is little record of his proceedings until AD 17. (Wikipedia)
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/home.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travel_in_Classical_antiquity
Herodotus's eye-witness accounts indicate that he traveled in Egypt in association with Athenians, probably some time after 454 BC or possibly earlier, after an Athenian fleet had assisted the uprising against Persian rule in 460–454 BC. He probably traveled to Tyre next and then down the Euphrates to Babylon. (Wikipedia)
But from present-day Turkey it was not so far away.
Scholars don't believe he was in Babylon:
https://rambambashi.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/common-errors-3-herodotus-in-babylo...
"There is a reason why it is fashionable to ridicule Herodotus. Have you actually read his anthropological sections on Egypt, Libya and the Scythians? So he got a few things wrong, so did Newton and just about every other scientist, historian, anthropologist and writer who ever tried to construct a record of anything. Why is he singled out as the father of lies? Aristotle thought worms could spontaneously self generate. He is not ridiculed because of it, he is hailed as the first great biologist."
In comments for:
http://winjah.blogspot.com/2012/03/crazy-tales-from-herodotus.html (three tales)
Strabo was maybe the real antique traveler:
Strabo's life was characterized by extensive travels. He journeyed to Egypt and Kush, as far west as coastal Tuscany and as far south as Ethiopia in addition to his travels in Asia Minor and the time he spent in Rome. Travel throughout the Mediterranean and Near East, especially for scholarly purposes, was popular during this era and was facilitated by the relative peace enjoyed throughout the reign of Augustus (27 BC – AD 14). He moved to Rome in 44 BC, and stayed there, studying and writing, until at least 31 BC. In 29 BC, on his way to Corinth (where Augustus was at the time), he visited the island of Gyaros in the Aegean Sea. Around 25 BC, he sailed up the Nile until reaching Philae,n 2 after which point there is little record of his proceedings until AD 17. (Wikipedia)
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/home.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travel_in_Classical_antiquity
5asurbanipal
Maybe not very down-to-earth, but I would like to know the weather, the geographical horizon of people, some politics, full characters, something like The Egyptian by Waltari or The Pharaoh and the Priest by Prus written centuries later. Of course these writers used sources from ancient times:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh_(novel) , section: Inspirations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Egyptian , section: Writing proces
A good American novel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_(novel)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh_(novel) , section: Inspirations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Egyptian , section: Writing proces
A good American novel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_(novel)
6aussieh
Try Ransom by David Malouf
7asurbanipal
There must be good sources from Ancient Egypt.
Quo Vadis by Sienkiewicz: "Sienkiewicz studied the Roman Empire extensively prior to writing the novel, with the aim of getting historical details correct" (Wikipedia).
Quo Vadis by Sienkiewicz: "Sienkiewicz studied the Roman Empire extensively prior to writing the novel, with the aim of getting historical details correct" (Wikipedia).
8southernbooklady
>1 asurbanipal: for "details of everyday life" --at least, of a certain kind of life -- I'm a fan of The Georgics, which I seem to remember includes poetic explanations of such useful farming techniques as how to treat a sheep that has the mange and how to test the salinity of the soil. :) I prefer Janet Lembke's translation, but that is probably because I know her and have loved her other books on nature and birds.
I'm also a fan of Horace, who loved to write about life in his country house. Of course translations vary wildly, and I don't know Latin well enough to read him in the original, so you have to go through a bit of trial and error with him. There's a compilation edited by JD McClatchy where all these different poets translate each of the odes. -- There's a great one where Horace is sort of ranting at a tree that fell down in his path and nearly hit him.
Also, I'm not sure what counts as "antiquity" in your caveat "really written in antiquity," but if you are interested in the Middle East, The Conference of the Birds is sometimes compared to Chaucer, with good reason.
I'm also a fan of Horace, who loved to write about life in his country house. Of course translations vary wildly, and I don't know Latin well enough to read him in the original, so you have to go through a bit of trial and error with him. There's a compilation edited by JD McClatchy where all these different poets translate each of the odes. -- There's a great one where Horace is sort of ranting at a tree that fell down in his path and nearly hit him.
Also, I'm not sure what counts as "antiquity" in your caveat "really written in antiquity," but if you are interested in the Middle East, The Conference of the Birds is sometimes compared to Chaucer, with good reason.
9asurbanipal
There are so many plays, novels, poems, maybe some good anthology?
10asurbanipal
Full Plutarch's Lives have 1300 pages, are rarely published in one volume.
In a French edition, 2291 pages:
https://www.amazon.fr/Vies-parallèles-Plutarque/dp/2070737624
Here, 1613 pages:
http://www.simonandschuster.com.au/books/Parallel-Lives-Complete/Plutarch/978162...
In a French edition, 2291 pages:
https://www.amazon.fr/Vies-parallèles-Plutarque/dp/2070737624
Here, 1613 pages:
http://www.simonandschuster.com.au/books/Parallel-Lives-Complete/Plutarch/978162...
11asurbanipal
I read some Flavius Josephus and was surprised by his very matter-of-fact, journalistic style. In a very detailed account, he doesn't mention Jesus. It's like omitting Jesus in a daily paper nowadays (which does happen for political reasons or because fame comes later).
One of Polish kings was probably omitted from chronicles because he had organized a rebellion against the Vatican in the 11th century.
One of Polish kings was probably omitted from chronicles because he had organized a rebellion against the Vatican in the 11th century.
12asurbanipal
I've only recently learnt that Hannibal became a political émigré after the fall of Carthage and sailed from court to court for 15 years, where Romans were opposed.
Wikipedia:
He journeyed to Tyre, the mother city of Carthage, and then to Ephesus, where he was honorably received by Antiochus III of Syria, who was preparing for war with Rome.
(...)
In 190 BC, Hannibal was placed in command of a Seleucid fleet but was defeated in the battle of the Eurymedon. According to Strabo and Plutarch, Hannibal also received hospitality at the Armenian royal court of Artaxias I. The authors add an apocryphal story of how Hannibal planned and supervised the building of the new royal capital Artaxata.46 When Antiochus seemed prepared to surrender him to the Romans, Hannibal fled to Crete, but he soon went back to Anatolia and sought refuge with Prusias I of Bithynia, who was engaged in warfare with Rome's ally, King Eumenes II of Pergamon. Hannibal went on to serve Prusias in this war. During one of the naval victories he gained over Eumenes, Hannibal had large pots filled with venomous snakes thrown onto Eumenes' ships.47 Hannibal also went on to defeat Eumenes in two other battles on land until the Romans interfered and threatened Bithynia into giving up Hannibal.
(...)
Juvenal asserts that his death was at Libyssa on the eastern shore of the Sea of Marmara.
Wikipedia:
He journeyed to Tyre, the mother city of Carthage, and then to Ephesus, where he was honorably received by Antiochus III of Syria, who was preparing for war with Rome.
(...)
In 190 BC, Hannibal was placed in command of a Seleucid fleet but was defeated in the battle of the Eurymedon. According to Strabo and Plutarch, Hannibal also received hospitality at the Armenian royal court of Artaxias I. The authors add an apocryphal story of how Hannibal planned and supervised the building of the new royal capital Artaxata.46 When Antiochus seemed prepared to surrender him to the Romans, Hannibal fled to Crete, but he soon went back to Anatolia and sought refuge with Prusias I of Bithynia, who was engaged in warfare with Rome's ally, King Eumenes II of Pergamon. Hannibal went on to serve Prusias in this war. During one of the naval victories he gained over Eumenes, Hannibal had large pots filled with venomous snakes thrown onto Eumenes' ships.47 Hannibal also went on to defeat Eumenes in two other battles on land until the Romans interfered and threatened Bithynia into giving up Hannibal.
(...)
Juvenal asserts that his death was at Libyssa on the eastern shore of the Sea of Marmara.
13asurbanipal
An Anthology of Ancient Mesopotamian Texts: When the Gods Were Human by Sabine Franke
Anthology of Ancient Greek Popular Literature by William Hansen (Editor)
The Ancient Near East: An Anthology of Texts and Pictures by James B. Pritchard (Editor)
The Literature of Ancient Egypt: An Anthology of Stories, Instructions, Stelae, Autobiographies, and Poetry by William Kelley Simpson (Editor)
The Historians of Ancient Rome: An Anthology of the Major Writings by Ronald Mellor
Ancient Egyptian Literature: An Anthology by John L. Foster
The Oxford Anthology of Roman Literature by Peter E. Knox (Editor), J. C. McKeown (Editor)
Women Writers of Ancient Greece and Rome: An Anthology by I. M. Plant
Anthology of Ancient Greek Popular Literature by William Hansen (Editor)
The Ancient Near East: An Anthology of Texts and Pictures by James B. Pritchard (Editor)
The Literature of Ancient Egypt: An Anthology of Stories, Instructions, Stelae, Autobiographies, and Poetry by William Kelley Simpson (Editor)
The Historians of Ancient Rome: An Anthology of the Major Writings by Ronald Mellor
Ancient Egyptian Literature: An Anthology by John L. Foster
The Oxford Anthology of Roman Literature by Peter E. Knox (Editor), J. C. McKeown (Editor)
Women Writers of Ancient Greece and Rome: An Anthology by I. M. Plant
14asurbanipal
>8 southernbooklady:
"if you are interested in the Middle East, The Conference of the Birds is sometimes compared to Chaucer, with good reason"
I've heard about this book and read the Wikipedia summary. Well, these are Middle Ages, the Persian poet killed by Mongols.
I've recently read about the Persian/Zoroastrian Book of Arda Viraf very similar to Dante's Divine Comedy.
"if you are interested in the Middle East, The Conference of the Birds is sometimes compared to Chaucer, with good reason"
I've heard about this book and read the Wikipedia summary. Well, these are Middle Ages, the Persian poet killed by Mongols.
I've recently read about the Persian/Zoroastrian Book of Arda Viraf very similar to Dante's Divine Comedy.
16Darth-Heather
The Red Tent by Anita Diamant
20asurbanipal
Lysistrata in Polish:
https://wolnelektury.pl/katalog/lektura/arystofanes-gromiwoja.html
Only 40 pages, bawdy humor, usually about sex. Kind of pornography. Under a high-sounding name. I'll try to read it soon.
https://wolnelektury.pl/katalog/lektura/arystofanes-gromiwoja.html
Only 40 pages, bawdy humor, usually about sex. Kind of pornography. Under a high-sounding name. I'll try to read it soon.
21asurbanipal
III.8, Martis caelebs quid agam Kalendis... – A Happy Anniversary –
Horace invites Maecenas to celebrate with him the festival of the Calends of March (the Feast of the Matrons), which was also the anniversary of his narrow escape from sudden death by a falling tree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odes_(Horace)
Very short:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0025%3Aboo...
Interesting, shows the (very positive) international situation, all nations subdued.
Horace invites Maecenas to celebrate with him the festival of the Calends of March (the Feast of the Matrons), which was also the anniversary of his narrow escape from sudden death by a falling tree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odes_(Horace)
Very short:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0025%3Aboo...
Interesting, shows the (very positive) international situation, all nations subdued.
22Guanhumara
>20 asurbanipal: I recommended Lysistrata because its really about the power relationships between men and women and the justice or stupidity of war (framed in the context of an international sex strike as social protest!)
23asurbanipal
Probably I leafed through this book:
https://www.antykwariat.waw.pl/ksiazka,1010498/arystofanes_komedie_wybrane,23412...
Selected comedies of Aristophanes, including Lysistrata.
https://www.antykwariat.waw.pl/ksiazka,1010498/arystofanes_komedie_wybrane,23412...
Selected comedies of Aristophanes, including Lysistrata.
25asurbanipal
I would also recommend The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea (mid-1st-century CE).
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/periplus.asp
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/periplus.asp
26asurbanipal
This story about Julius Caesar:
On the way across the Aegean Sea,22 Caesar was kidnapped by pirates and held prisoner.2324 He maintained an attitude of superiority throughout his captivity. The pirates demanded a ransom of 20 talents of silver, but he insisted that they ask for 50.2526 After the ransom was paid, Caesar raised a fleet, pursued and captured the pirates, and imprisoned them. He had them crucified on his own authority, as he had promised while in captivity27—a promise that the pirates had taken as a joke. As a sign of leniency, he first had their throats cut. He was soon called back into military action in Asia, raising a band of auxiliaries to repel an incursion from the east.28
(Wikipedia) was taken from: ^ Again, according to Suetonius's chronology (Julius 4). Plutarch (Caesar 1.8–2) says this happened earlier, on his return from Nicomedes's court. Velleius Paterculus (Roman History 2:41.3–42) says merely that it happened when he was a young man.
On the way across the Aegean Sea,22 Caesar was kidnapped by pirates and held prisoner.2324 He maintained an attitude of superiority throughout his captivity. The pirates demanded a ransom of 20 talents of silver, but he insisted that they ask for 50.2526 After the ransom was paid, Caesar raised a fleet, pursued and captured the pirates, and imprisoned them. He had them crucified on his own authority, as he had promised while in captivity27—a promise that the pirates had taken as a joke. As a sign of leniency, he first had their throats cut. He was soon called back into military action in Asia, raising a band of auxiliaries to repel an incursion from the east.28
(Wikipedia) was taken from: ^ Again, according to Suetonius's chronology (Julius 4). Plutarch (Caesar 1.8–2) says this happened earlier, on his return from Nicomedes's court. Velleius Paterculus (Roman History 2:41.3–42) says merely that it happened when he was a young man.
27asurbanipal
For the "lost legion," Tacitus is the source:
The Ninth participated in Agricola's invasion of Caledonia (modern Scotland) in 82-3. According to Tacitus the legion narrowly escaped destruction when the Caledonians beyond the Forth launched a surprise attack at night on their fort. The Caledonians "burst upon them as they were terrified in their sleep". In desperate hand-to-hand fighting the Caledonians entered the camp, but Agricola was able to send cavalry to relieve the legion. Seeing the relief force, "the men of the Ninth Legion recovered their spirit, and sure of their safety, fought for glory", pushing back the Caledonians.10 The legion also participated in the decisive Battle of Mons Graupius. (Wikipedia)
The Ninth participated in Agricola's invasion of Caledonia (modern Scotland) in 82-3. According to Tacitus the legion narrowly escaped destruction when the Caledonians beyond the Forth launched a surprise attack at night on their fort. The Caledonians "burst upon them as they were terrified in their sleep". In desperate hand-to-hand fighting the Caledonians entered the camp, but Agricola was able to send cavalry to relieve the legion. Seeing the relief force, "the men of the Ninth Legion recovered their spirit, and sure of their safety, fought for glory", pushing back the Caledonians.10 The legion also participated in the decisive Battle of Mons Graupius. (Wikipedia)
28asurbanipal
In Poland, we remember that Nero sent a soldier to the Baltic shore for amber. Generally, we didn't have Roman soldiers in our territory, but this man must have crossed Poland.
The source is Pliny the Elder, The Natural History.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Aboo...
The paragraphs "From Carnuntum in Pannonia" and the next one, "The arms too."
It's so important that Polish Wikipedia has a special article:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyprawa_rzymskiego_ekwity_po_bursztyn
The source is Pliny the Elder, The Natural History.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Aboo...
The paragraphs "From Carnuntum in Pannonia" and the next one, "The arms too."
It's so important that Polish Wikipedia has a special article:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyprawa_rzymskiego_ekwity_po_bursztyn
29Guanhumara
>28 asurbanipal: I think you may be incorrect in assuming Nero's man went overland.
I'm only looking at a translation, not the Latin original, but
Traversing the coasts of that country and visiting the various markets there, he brought back amber, in such vast quantities...
implies to me a sea voyage, following the coastline.
After all, this was the normal Roman trading method; boats can transport far larger quantities than a pack-train.
Sailing from Gaul, whether or not they put in on Polish shores would depend on the weather. Is there any archaeological evidence of a Roman trading presence in Poland?
I'm only looking at a translation, not the Latin original, but
Traversing the coasts of that country and visiting the various markets there, he brought back amber, in such vast quantities...
implies to me a sea voyage, following the coastline.
After all, this was the normal Roman trading method; boats can transport far larger quantities than a pack-train.
Sailing from Gaul, whether or not they put in on Polish shores would depend on the weather. Is there any archaeological evidence of a Roman trading presence in Poland?
30asurbanipal
The first article in Polish I've found, with a map (we have good historians now):
https://polskiedzieje.pl/pozostale-artykuly/stosunki-gospodarcze-ziem-polskich-z...
claims that trading contacts with Rome were just total, like with the EU now. The whole Roman empire had the same coins, Poland mainly traded with Pannonia. Poles hoarded coins and chiefs were given imported wine to facilitate trade. Amber was highly valued in Rome.
Romans prohibited the sale of weapons to barbarians, so they are rarely found.
The problem is that there are two theories about who lived in Poland back then: either Goths and Vandals, or Slavs.
The author of the article is a patriot, so he doesn't even mention any Germans. But this Germanic presence is more probable. This would mean wide-ranging influence of Rome on these "free" Germanic tribes.
Archeological findings are much more important here than old texts.
Amber was carried to Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece and to everywhere in Europe for 1,000 years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road
The main center for amber is the Russian enclave on the Baltic, the Kaliningrad Oblast:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad_Oblast#/media/File:Kaliningrad_Oblast_...
https://polskiedzieje.pl/pozostale-artykuly/stosunki-gospodarcze-ziem-polskich-z...
claims that trading contacts with Rome were just total, like with the EU now. The whole Roman empire had the same coins, Poland mainly traded with Pannonia. Poles hoarded coins and chiefs were given imported wine to facilitate trade. Amber was highly valued in Rome.
Romans prohibited the sale of weapons to barbarians, so they are rarely found.
The problem is that there are two theories about who lived in Poland back then: either Goths and Vandals, or Slavs.
The author of the article is a patriot, so he doesn't even mention any Germans. But this Germanic presence is more probable. This would mean wide-ranging influence of Rome on these "free" Germanic tribes.
Archeological findings are much more important here than old texts.
Amber was carried to Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece and to everywhere in Europe for 1,000 years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road
The main center for amber is the Russian enclave on the Baltic, the Kaliningrad Oblast:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad_Oblast#/media/File:Kaliningrad_Oblast_...
32Guanhumara
>30 asurbanipal: I am familiar with Baltic amber - and how widely it penetrated the ancient world. I think the first time I saw any was in an exhibition of the treasures of Tutenkhamun's tomb.
I agree that the archaeological record is more reliable; when only one culture is leaving a written record, we need to remember that ancient historians were just as susceptible to political bias as modern ones!
I agree that the archaeological record is more reliable; when only one culture is leaving a written record, we need to remember that ancient historians were just as susceptible to political bias as modern ones!
33Cecrow
>28 asurbanipal:, 30, Later in history but something that stood out to me: when the Black Plague that wiped out a third of Europe (or whatever your favourite estimate is) in the 14th century, somehow it largely skirted Poland. That's the place to go if you get magically transported back to Europe in that time period.
Check out the animated GIF, top of the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
Milan, Italy looks to be safe too.
Check out the animated GIF, top of the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
Milan, Italy looks to be safe too.
34asurbanipal
I once read an explanation.
Poland had lots of forests which somehow blocked communication between settlements.
A weak explanation because settlements were scarce also in Russia.
Poland had lots of forests which somehow blocked communication between settlements.
A weak explanation because settlements were scarce also in Russia.
35Guanhumara
>33 Cecrow: And the Pyranees (which is understandable!)
But Milan, a famous trading centre, is a puzzler.
But Milan, a famous trading centre, is a puzzler.
36asurbanipal
Google: why was milan spared by the black plague
https://www.quora.com/Why-was-Milan-unaffected-by-the-Black-Death-pandemic
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/308ry3/why_did_milan_italy_manag...
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100401084347AApF5k4
https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/1wpt81/polands_magic_plague_wall/
Poland lost about a quarter of its population to the plague
Poland established quarantines at its borders
https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/16699/why-was-poland-spared-from-the...
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=619082
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-plague-outbreak-in-1348-The-Black-Death-miss-P...
https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/1pre9p/why_did_poland_escape_the_bl...
I'm not interested enough to read all this, there are various theories, but mainly some sanitary and hygiene measures by authorities, no great secret.
https://www.quora.com/Why-was-Milan-unaffected-by-the-Black-Death-pandemic
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/308ry3/why_did_milan_italy_manag...
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100401084347AApF5k4
https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/1wpt81/polands_magic_plague_wall/
Poland lost about a quarter of its population to the plague
Poland established quarantines at its borders
https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/16699/why-was-poland-spared-from-the...
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=619082
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-plague-outbreak-in-1348-The-Black-Death-miss-P...
https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/1pre9p/why_did_poland_escape_the_bl...
I'm not interested enough to read all this, there are various theories, but mainly some sanitary and hygiene measures by authorities, no great secret.
37Cecrow
>36 asurbanipal:, and incomplete records; a lack of facts becoming facts, as one commenter says. Interesting. Okay, so if I'm teleported back in time it doesn't matter where I am, I'm out of luck. Good to know.
38asurbanipal
It must be admitted that we had few medieval chroniclers.
Jan Długosz was the best of them and wrote in the years 1455–1480
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Długosz
He had access to all court archives in Cracow and e.g. his description of the geography of the kingdom is very detailed. His descriptions of various dynastic problems are very precise.
I'll try to find the years 1348-9 in his work. Book IX.
1349: Pestifer hic annus aput Polonos fuit morboque epidimie passim grassante multi mortales tam de nobilitate quam de plebe consumpti sunt.
Another Polish source:
Anno Domini 1349 pestilencia magna fuit, et homines se affligebant seu flagellabant.
Here in Długosz, 1348, a normal description of the plague across Europe, including Poland:
https://www.dbp.wroc.pl/biblioteki/wroclaw/attachments/article/714/Jan%20D%C5%82...
I can't get access to the full Polish translation, maybe there is something more.
He accused Jews of causing the pestilence, so maybe he is censored now?
How accurate was his information? There was a small earthquake in northern Italy in 1348, and he presents it as an apocalyptic event for all Europe, where cities in all countries collapsed.
In Latin:
Here, both times the second column:
http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb10635839_00675.htm...
http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb10635839_00677.htm...
In Latin, with headings:
https://dlugosz.polona.pl/en/roczniki/rekopis-koniecpolskich/248 (1348)
https://dlugosz.polona.pl/en/roczniki/rekopis-koniecpolskich/252 (1349)
Here in German, look for "Polonos":
http://docplayer.org/39822431-Judenschutz-und-eigennutz.html
The German scholar has the first date wrong, but he also uses other sources.
Judei in tota Germania et fere in tota Polonia sunt deleti, alii gladiis occisi allii in igne cremati (probably the Oliwa chronicle from Gdańsk).
Długosz describes the plague under 1348 and 1349 in two long passages. Western areas near Germany were particularly hit and there was a problem with blaming Jews, pogroms, and also Jews from Germany escaped to Poland.
However, these two years were full of other important events in Poland, though nothing really special. The court in Cracow operated normally. The annexation of Galicia starting from 1349 was quite important, a large territorial gain. "In 1349, Casimir III the Great of Poland conquered the major part of Galicia and put an end to the independence of this territory." (Wikipedia)
Two typical cities in Poland rather did not suffer much:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludno%C5%9B%C4%87_Lublina
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rozw%C3%B3j_demograficzny_Kielc
Casimir III the Great was really one of the best rulers in our history who cared for the economy, for the state of towns and cities, avoided unnecessary wars, extended the territory, ambitious.
As to the quarantine, I haven't been able to establish the source and people on Polish forums doubt that there is a source. Some historian of our economy wrote so in a book without any proof.
The presence of cats, a heavy winter (but what about Norway?), Jewish hygiene, resistance after many earlier outbreaks, genetic resistance, another rat type, beer drinking, mead drinking, cheap yolks (because only whites were used in construction), anything is possible. Probably the king.
Possible evidence that the plague was serious in Poland: a large rise in workers' wages, larger production of devotional objects.
In the Pyrenees, villages were either spared or affected with 30% mortality, there was no other option. Brussels was spared.
Poland, 1963:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Strona_g%C5%82%C3%B3wna#/media/File:Ospa...
The sign says: People who have not been vaccinated against pox are forbidden to enter the city of Wrocław.
There is some larger problem with the history of Poland, which I can't put my finger on.
Maybe it's lack of interest among the population.
The history of the country is very rich and complex, but the general population knows only some bits and pieces. We should have flocks of tourists like France, but the monuments are not promoted. Old cathedrals still stand, old churches, palaces, whole city and town centers.
There is no interest from the authorities in such a direction of development.
We have good historians, archaeologists, museums, but some lack of identification with the country's history, lack of emotions. No good historical movies are made.
Poland is very democratic now, and stories about the nobility seem archaic.
The history of Jews, Germans, Russians in Poland is quietly suppressed to block any invasions, protect "real Poles".
Jan Długosz was the best of them and wrote in the years 1455–1480
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Długosz
He had access to all court archives in Cracow and e.g. his description of the geography of the kingdom is very detailed. His descriptions of various dynastic problems are very precise.
I'll try to find the years 1348-9 in his work. Book IX.
1349: Pestifer hic annus aput Polonos fuit morboque epidimie passim grassante multi mortales tam de nobilitate quam de plebe consumpti sunt.
Another Polish source:
Anno Domini 1349 pestilencia magna fuit, et homines se affligebant seu flagellabant.
Here in Długosz, 1348, a normal description of the plague across Europe, including Poland:
https://www.dbp.wroc.pl/biblioteki/wroclaw/attachments/article/714/Jan%20D%C5%82...
I can't get access to the full Polish translation, maybe there is something more.
He accused Jews of causing the pestilence, so maybe he is censored now?
How accurate was his information? There was a small earthquake in northern Italy in 1348, and he presents it as an apocalyptic event for all Europe, where cities in all countries collapsed.
In Latin:
Here, both times the second column:
http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb10635839_00675.htm...
http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb10635839_00677.htm...
In Latin, with headings:
https://dlugosz.polona.pl/en/roczniki/rekopis-koniecpolskich/248 (1348)
https://dlugosz.polona.pl/en/roczniki/rekopis-koniecpolskich/252 (1349)
Here in German, look for "Polonos":
http://docplayer.org/39822431-Judenschutz-und-eigennutz.html
The German scholar has the first date wrong, but he also uses other sources.
Judei in tota Germania et fere in tota Polonia sunt deleti, alii gladiis occisi allii in igne cremati (probably the Oliwa chronicle from Gdańsk).
Długosz describes the plague under 1348 and 1349 in two long passages. Western areas near Germany were particularly hit and there was a problem with blaming Jews, pogroms, and also Jews from Germany escaped to Poland.
However, these two years were full of other important events in Poland, though nothing really special. The court in Cracow operated normally. The annexation of Galicia starting from 1349 was quite important, a large territorial gain. "In 1349, Casimir III the Great of Poland conquered the major part of Galicia and put an end to the independence of this territory." (Wikipedia)
Two typical cities in Poland rather did not suffer much:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludno%C5%9B%C4%87_Lublina
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rozw%C3%B3j_demograficzny_Kielc
Casimir III the Great was really one of the best rulers in our history who cared for the economy, for the state of towns and cities, avoided unnecessary wars, extended the territory, ambitious.
As to the quarantine, I haven't been able to establish the source and people on Polish forums doubt that there is a source. Some historian of our economy wrote so in a book without any proof.
The presence of cats, a heavy winter (but what about Norway?), Jewish hygiene, resistance after many earlier outbreaks, genetic resistance, another rat type, beer drinking, mead drinking, cheap yolks (because only whites were used in construction), anything is possible. Probably the king.
Possible evidence that the plague was serious in Poland: a large rise in workers' wages, larger production of devotional objects.
In the Pyrenees, villages were either spared or affected with 30% mortality, there was no other option. Brussels was spared.
Poland, 1963:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Strona_g%C5%82%C3%B3wna#/media/File:Ospa...
The sign says: People who have not been vaccinated against pox are forbidden to enter the city of Wrocław.
There is some larger problem with the history of Poland, which I can't put my finger on.
Maybe it's lack of interest among the population.
The history of the country is very rich and complex, but the general population knows only some bits and pieces. We should have flocks of tourists like France, but the monuments are not promoted. Old cathedrals still stand, old churches, palaces, whole city and town centers.
There is no interest from the authorities in such a direction of development.
We have good historians, archaeologists, museums, but some lack of identification with the country's history, lack of emotions. No good historical movies are made.
Poland is very democratic now, and stories about the nobility seem archaic.
The history of Jews, Germans, Russians in Poland is quietly suppressed to block any invasions, protect "real Poles".
39asurbanipal
http://www.poselska.nazwa.pl/wieczorna2/historia-starozytna/rzymianie-w-polsce-o...
http://www.trencin.sk/en/index.php?s-cv-contentID=13123&s-cv-embeddedID=1245...
Here you can see a Roman inscription from western Slovakia which was found closest to the Polish borders. 179 CE.
Some researchers claim that there were Roman camps in western Poland, at least for a short time, sth like Scotland, and a "Sarmatian war". Wikipedia doesn't confirm that, claims these were just settlements on the Amber Route.
Sth like the start of the movie "Gladiator" because it's exactly the era of Marcus Aurelius and Commodus.
One source is the quite accurate (to 10 km) Ptolemy's map with geographical coordinates.
Expedicio Germanica secundo was conducted by Marcus Aurelius and his co-emperor Commodus. The apogee came in the winter 179/180 at Carpathian passes. 40,000 Romans took part in the campaign. Two new provinces were to be created: Marcomania and Sarmatia (but weren't).
Trenčín was first mentioned under the Greek name Leukaristos (Λευκάριστος), depicted on the Ptolemy world map around 150 CE. During the course of the Marcomannic Wars between the Roman Empire and Germanic Quadi, the Romans carved an inscription on the rock under the present-day castle in 179 CE and the place was mentioned as Laugaricio. For long time it was considered the northernmost known presence of the Romans in Central Europe. (Wikipedia)
Polish historians believe that Leukaristos was in fact around Leszno in present-day Poland, and the Romans had spent the winter there.
The Zana inscription which describes the military leader:
http://cil.bbaw.de/test06/bilder/datenbank/PH0001829.jpg
Zana is now in Algieria:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_Veteranorum
And it's just a coincidence that the gladiator fights in northern Africa? The gladiator's name is Maximus Decimus Meridius and the commander's Marcus Valerius Maximianus.
What a Roman camp looked like:
http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/ima...
http://www.trencin.sk/en/index.php?s-cv-contentID=13123&s-cv-embeddedID=1245...
Here you can see a Roman inscription from western Slovakia which was found closest to the Polish borders. 179 CE.
Some researchers claim that there were Roman camps in western Poland, at least for a short time, sth like Scotland, and a "Sarmatian war". Wikipedia doesn't confirm that, claims these were just settlements on the Amber Route.
Sth like the start of the movie "Gladiator" because it's exactly the era of Marcus Aurelius and Commodus.
One source is the quite accurate (to 10 km) Ptolemy's map with geographical coordinates.
Expedicio Germanica secundo was conducted by Marcus Aurelius and his co-emperor Commodus. The apogee came in the winter 179/180 at Carpathian passes. 40,000 Romans took part in the campaign. Two new provinces were to be created: Marcomania and Sarmatia (but weren't).
Trenčín was first mentioned under the Greek name Leukaristos (Λευκάριστος), depicted on the Ptolemy world map around 150 CE. During the course of the Marcomannic Wars between the Roman Empire and Germanic Quadi, the Romans carved an inscription on the rock under the present-day castle in 179 CE and the place was mentioned as Laugaricio. For long time it was considered the northernmost known presence of the Romans in Central Europe. (Wikipedia)
Polish historians believe that Leukaristos was in fact around Leszno in present-day Poland, and the Romans had spent the winter there.
The Zana inscription which describes the military leader:
http://cil.bbaw.de/test06/bilder/datenbank/PH0001829.jpg
Zana is now in Algieria:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_Veteranorum
And it's just a coincidence that the gladiator fights in northern Africa? The gladiator's name is Maximus Decimus Meridius and the commander's Marcus Valerius Maximianus.
What a Roman camp looked like:
http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/ima...
40asurbanipal
Two other Roman inscriptions from Slovakia:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Roman_inscriptions_in_Slovak...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Roman_inscriptions_in_Slovak...
Inscriptions in Hungary:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Roman_inscriptions_in_Hungar...
Rome reached Poland from the south.
Recently, clear traces of Roman presence in Kuyavia (https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kujawy#/media/File:Polska-woj-kujawy.png) have been found.
https://www.wprost.pl/historia/10120828/rzymscy-legionisci-przebywali-na-kujawac...
Romans may have recruited German soldiers for their army or helped Vandals against another tribe.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Roman_inscriptions_in_Slovak...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Roman_inscriptions_in_Slovak...
Inscriptions in Hungary:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Roman_inscriptions_in_Hungar...
Rome reached Poland from the south.
Recently, clear traces of Roman presence in Kuyavia (https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kujawy#/media/File:Polska-woj-kujawy.png) have been found.
https://www.wprost.pl/historia/10120828/rzymscy-legionisci-przebywali-na-kujawac...
Romans may have recruited German soldiers for their army or helped Vandals against another tribe.
41Guanhumara
Thank you for the detailed information @asurbanipal. It's not easy to find books on Polish history - despite Poland being a large country with a long history of ties to Britain.
42asurbanipal
God's Playground by Norman Davies - a full history.
I believe that the best book would be some collection of stories, almost like fairy tales, like the Arabian Nights. 100, 200 such stories, which we often know from the elementary school plus some for adults, just to present the essence of the country.
I believe that the best book would be some collection of stories, almost like fairy tales, like the Arabian Nights. 100, 200 such stories, which we often know from the elementary school plus some for adults, just to present the essence of the country.
43Guanhumara
>42 asurbanipal: Indeed. :-) But I sometimes think he seems to be the only writer (in English) on the subject! Adam Zamoyski is actually the only other writer interested in the whole of Poland's history, who I can think of.
I agree - that would be an excellent idea!
I agree - that would be an excellent idea!
44asurbanipal
In Polish, there are many full histories:
Google Images:
książki historia polski
(= books history of Poland)
Google Images:
córki Wawelu
(= daughters of Wawel)
New novel about princesses from Cracow, you can see some portraits and the castle.
This important series by Paweł Jasienica has been translated, but is unknown in English-speaking countries:
Piast Poland (History of Poland Book 1)
Jagiellonian Poland
The Commonwealth of Both Nations: The Silver Age
Pretty old by now, but written with love.
Google Images:
książki historia polski
(= books history of Poland)
Google Images:
córki Wawelu
(= daughters of Wawel)
New novel about princesses from Cracow, you can see some portraits and the castle.
This important series by Paweł Jasienica has been translated, but is unknown in English-speaking countries:
Piast Poland (History of Poland Book 1)
Jagiellonian Poland
The Commonwealth of Both Nations: The Silver Age
Pretty old by now, but written with love.
45Guanhumara
>44 asurbanipal: For Wawel Castle I do not need pictures; I have seen it for myself. Cracow is a beautiful, ancient city.
46asurbanipal
Foreigners don't know, for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gniezno_Cathedral
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Płock_Cathedral
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamość
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toruń
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branicki_Palace,_Białystok
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Łańcut_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiślica
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyniec
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mary's_Church,_Gdańsk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliwa_Cathedral
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisłoujście_Fortress
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilanów_Palace
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Łazienki_Park
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pałac_w_Radzyniu_Podlaskim (beautiful rococo palace)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasna_Góra_Monastery
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pałac_Królewski_w_Łobzowie (Royal Palace within Cracow; "a 16th-century wall is the only remaining remnant of the original palace")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frombork
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czartoryski_Palace_(Puławy)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozłówka_Palace
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciechanów_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Płock_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poznań_Town_Hall (partly destroyed in WW2)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandomierz_Town_Hall
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_the_Kraków_Bishops_in_Kielce
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klasztor_Benedyktynów_w_Mogilnie (monastery)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kościół_św._Jakuba_w_Mogilnie (church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collegiate_Church_of_St._Peter_and_St._Paul,_Krusz...
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archiopactwo_Cystersów_w_Jędrzejowie (abbey)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willa_Decjusza (Renaissance palace in Cracow)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulejów_Abbey
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Słup_graniczny_w_Biskupicach_Radłowskich (border post)
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borne_routière_de_Konin (mile post)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stara_Zagość (church)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3%C5%82_%C5%9Bw._Rocha_w_Parz%C4%99... (cemetery church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Tribunal#/media/File:Lublin_Trybuna%C5%82_Ko...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazimierz_Dolny
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowy_Wiśnicz_Castle
Buk near Poznań: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3%C5%82_%C5%9Awi%C4%99tego_Krzy%C5%... wooden church, 1760; https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawny_pa%C5%82ac_biskup%C3%B3w_pozna%C5%84skich_w_... bishops' palace, around 1800
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che%C5%82mno (churches and the town hall)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dw%C3%B3r_obronny_w_Je%C5%BCowie (Renaissance defensive manor house)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branice_(Krak%C3%B3w)#/media/File:Renaissance_mano...
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom_mansjonarski_w_Lublinie (house in Lublin)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kościół_św._Jana_Chrzciciela_w_Siewierzu (church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Church_and_Convent_of_St._James,_Sandomi...
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3%C5%82_%C5%9Bw._Jana_Chrzciciela_w... (church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skar%C5%BCysko_Ko%C5%9Bcielne (church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ląd_Abbey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paczk%C3%B3w (medieval fortifications)
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/55690817.jpg Wiślica, foundation tablet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nieborów_Palace
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkadia,_Łowicz_County
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogalin, 18th century palace
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_in_Otwock_Wielki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olsztyn_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_Tower_of_Toru%C5%84
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gniew
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_Z%C4%85bkowice_%C5%9Al%C4%85skie
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afera_grabarzy_z_Frankenstein - chapel, now church also in Ząbkowice Śląskie (Frankenstein when this part of Silesia was German), probably the inspiration for the novel Frankenstein; Frankenstein gravedigger scandal - gravediggers caused an epidemic by various experiments with corpses
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3%C5%82_Wniebowzi%C4%99cia_Naj%C5%9... (church)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3%C5%82_%C5%9Bw._Piotra_i_Paw%C5%82... (church in Gdańsk)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letni_Pałac_Lubomirskich_w_Rzeszowie (aristocratic summer palace)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opactwo_św._Wojciecha_w_Staniątkach (abbey from the 13th c.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inowłódz (church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leszcz,_Warmian-Masurian_Voivodeship#/media/File:K... Gothic church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Martin's_Collegiate_Church,_Opatów
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamek_Piastowski_w_Legnicy (Legnica Castle)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lublin_Castle#/media/File:Lublin_zamek_2009.jpg (The Keep, Lublin Castle)
"The rectangular Market Square in Olecko, founded in 1560, was famous for its size being one of the largest in Europe at 255m x 215m x 228m x 225m." https://radioolsztyn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/rynek_-5.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niedzica_Castle
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrykół - wooden Protestant church, 1667
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Słup_graniczny_w_Boguszach - border post between Poland, Lithuania, and Prussia, 1545
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siedl%C4%99cin_Tower (early 14th century, more photos in Polish Wikipedia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wąchock_Abbey
From this article about western Poland: https://www.onet.pl/turystyka/gdziewyjechac/przestancie-pisac-ze-nic-tam-nie-ma-...
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burg_Draheim
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chwarszczany
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurka,_Gryfino_County
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swobnica
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%82o%C5%84sk#/media/Plik:S%C5%82o%C5%84sk_zame...
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pa%C5%82ac_Br%C3%BChla_w_Brodach
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kliczk%C3%B3w_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grodziec_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skalbmierz#/media/File:Skalbmierz_ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3... (church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_Church,_Czerwińsk_nad_Wisłą
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Nicholas_Church,_Wysocice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotrkowska_Street (in Łódź)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald - its annual recreation:
An annual battle reenactment takes place on 15 July. In 2010 a pageant reenacting the event and commemorating the battle's 600th anniversary was held. It attracted 200,000 spectators who watched 2,200 participants playing the role of knights in a reenactment of the battle. An additional 3,800 participants played peasants and camp followers. The pageant's organizers believe that the event has become the largest reenactment of medieval combat in Europe.94 (Wikipedia)
Google Images: inscenizacja bitwy pod Grunwaldem
Google Images: najstarsze romańskie kościoły w Polsce (oldest Romanesque churches in Poland), especially:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collegiate_Church_of_St._Mary_and_St._Alexius,_Tum
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Architektura_gotyku_w_województwie_wiel... (84 Gothic churches near Poznań)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Architektura_gotyku_w_województwie_kuja... (66 Gothic churches near Toruń)
and hundreds of such places across Poland, often in towns. Embarrassment of riches. Often these are not even UNESCO sites. The northern formerly German part is also full of very old churches and Teutonic castles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbork_Castle (was partly destroyed in WW2)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golub-Dobrzyń_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grudziądz_Granaries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidzica_Castle (more photos in Polish Wikipedia, was partly destroyed in WW2)
Google Images: kościoły na mazurach (churches in Masuria)
Silesia has many castles and palaces: https://velvetescape.com/castles-palaces-lower-silesia-poland/
Google Images: synagogi w Polsce (synagogues in Poland)
The country has been rather safe for the last 20 years.
The UNESCO list for Poland is not to my taste. It as if avoids the old kingdom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_of_Poland
Consequently, foreigners are left in the dark and I had to practically do my own research to discover such places. First, I read a book with biographies of Polish kings, which had many illustrations of such buildings as the background and I realized there was something more.
This list is better:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Historic_Monuments_(Poland)
I tried to avoid buildings which were totally destroyed in wars, but these are surprisingly few. It's not so easy to destroy a whole castle or palace. Warsaw, Gdańsk, Wrocław, Poznań, Szczecin were almost completely destroyed in WWII, then rebuilt.
These towns are better, now they are calm and tidy, but there may be some problems with guides, opening hours. Some of these buildings are active monasteries, convents, inaccessible. Where foreign tourists are uncommon, they will be on their own. Young people should speak some English.
Churches are active places of worship and there can be several Masses every day. During a Mass, tourism is impossible. Usually a church has some remarkable altars, paintings, pulpits.
The kingdom also has extensive written archives despite many wars in its territory. Often these are documents concerning everyday life in cities and towns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gniezno_Cathedral
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Płock_Cathedral
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamość
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toruń
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branicki_Palace,_Białystok
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Łańcut_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiślica
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyniec
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mary's_Church,_Gdańsk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliwa_Cathedral
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisłoujście_Fortress
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilanów_Palace
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Łazienki_Park
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pałac_w_Radzyniu_Podlaskim (beautiful rococo palace)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasna_Góra_Monastery
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pałac_Królewski_w_Łobzowie (Royal Palace within Cracow; "a 16th-century wall is the only remaining remnant of the original palace")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frombork
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czartoryski_Palace_(Puławy)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozłówka_Palace
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciechanów_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Płock_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poznań_Town_Hall (partly destroyed in WW2)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandomierz_Town_Hall
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_the_Kraków_Bishops_in_Kielce
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klasztor_Benedyktynów_w_Mogilnie (monastery)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kościół_św._Jakuba_w_Mogilnie (church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collegiate_Church_of_St._Peter_and_St._Paul,_Krusz...
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archiopactwo_Cystersów_w_Jędrzejowie (abbey)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willa_Decjusza (Renaissance palace in Cracow)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulejów_Abbey
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Słup_graniczny_w_Biskupicach_Radłowskich (border post)
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borne_routière_de_Konin (mile post)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stara_Zagość (church)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3%C5%82_%C5%9Bw._Rocha_w_Parz%C4%99... (cemetery church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Tribunal#/media/File:Lublin_Trybuna%C5%82_Ko...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazimierz_Dolny
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowy_Wiśnicz_Castle
Buk near Poznań: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3%C5%82_%C5%9Awi%C4%99tego_Krzy%C5%... wooden church, 1760; https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawny_pa%C5%82ac_biskup%C3%B3w_pozna%C5%84skich_w_... bishops' palace, around 1800
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che%C5%82mno (churches and the town hall)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dw%C3%B3r_obronny_w_Je%C5%BCowie (Renaissance defensive manor house)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branice_(Krak%C3%B3w)#/media/File:Renaissance_mano...
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom_mansjonarski_w_Lublinie (house in Lublin)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kościół_św._Jana_Chrzciciela_w_Siewierzu (church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Church_and_Convent_of_St._James,_Sandomi...
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3%C5%82_%C5%9Bw._Jana_Chrzciciela_w... (church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skar%C5%BCysko_Ko%C5%9Bcielne (church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ląd_Abbey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paczk%C3%B3w (medieval fortifications)
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/55690817.jpg Wiślica, foundation tablet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nieborów_Palace
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkadia,_Łowicz_County
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogalin, 18th century palace
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_in_Otwock_Wielki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olsztyn_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_Tower_of_Toru%C5%84
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gniew
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_Z%C4%85bkowice_%C5%9Al%C4%85skie
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afera_grabarzy_z_Frankenstein - chapel, now church also in Ząbkowice Śląskie (Frankenstein when this part of Silesia was German), probably the inspiration for the novel Frankenstein; Frankenstein gravedigger scandal - gravediggers caused an epidemic by various experiments with corpses
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3%C5%82_Wniebowzi%C4%99cia_Naj%C5%9... (church)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3%C5%82_%C5%9Bw._Piotra_i_Paw%C5%82... (church in Gdańsk)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letni_Pałac_Lubomirskich_w_Rzeszowie (aristocratic summer palace)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opactwo_św._Wojciecha_w_Staniątkach (abbey from the 13th c.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inowłódz (church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leszcz,_Warmian-Masurian_Voivodeship#/media/File:K... Gothic church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Martin's_Collegiate_Church,_Opatów
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamek_Piastowski_w_Legnicy (Legnica Castle)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lublin_Castle#/media/File:Lublin_zamek_2009.jpg (The Keep, Lublin Castle)
"The rectangular Market Square in Olecko, founded in 1560, was famous for its size being one of the largest in Europe at 255m x 215m x 228m x 225m." https://radioolsztyn.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/rynek_-5.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niedzica_Castle
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrykół - wooden Protestant church, 1667
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Słup_graniczny_w_Boguszach - border post between Poland, Lithuania, and Prussia, 1545
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siedl%C4%99cin_Tower (early 14th century, more photos in Polish Wikipedia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wąchock_Abbey
From this article about western Poland: https://www.onet.pl/turystyka/gdziewyjechac/przestancie-pisac-ze-nic-tam-nie-ma-...
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burg_Draheim
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chwarszczany
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurka,_Gryfino_County
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swobnica
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%82o%C5%84sk#/media/Plik:S%C5%82o%C5%84sk_zame...
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pa%C5%82ac_Br%C3%BChla_w_Brodach
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kliczk%C3%B3w_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grodziec_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skalbmierz#/media/File:Skalbmierz_ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3... (church)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_Church,_Czerwińsk_nad_Wisłą
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Nicholas_Church,_Wysocice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotrkowska_Street (in Łódź)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald - its annual recreation:
An annual battle reenactment takes place on 15 July. In 2010 a pageant reenacting the event and commemorating the battle's 600th anniversary was held. It attracted 200,000 spectators who watched 2,200 participants playing the role of knights in a reenactment of the battle. An additional 3,800 participants played peasants and camp followers. The pageant's organizers believe that the event has become the largest reenactment of medieval combat in Europe.94 (Wikipedia)
Google Images: inscenizacja bitwy pod Grunwaldem
Google Images: najstarsze romańskie kościoły w Polsce (oldest Romanesque churches in Poland), especially:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collegiate_Church_of_St._Mary_and_St._Alexius,_Tum
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Architektura_gotyku_w_województwie_wiel... (84 Gothic churches near Poznań)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Architektura_gotyku_w_województwie_kuja... (66 Gothic churches near Toruń)
and hundreds of such places across Poland, often in towns. Embarrassment of riches. Often these are not even UNESCO sites. The northern formerly German part is also full of very old churches and Teutonic castles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbork_Castle (was partly destroyed in WW2)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golub-Dobrzyń_Castle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grudziądz_Granaries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidzica_Castle (more photos in Polish Wikipedia, was partly destroyed in WW2)
Google Images: kościoły na mazurach (churches in Masuria)
Silesia has many castles and palaces: https://velvetescape.com/castles-palaces-lower-silesia-poland/
Google Images: synagogi w Polsce (synagogues in Poland)
The country has been rather safe for the last 20 years.
The UNESCO list for Poland is not to my taste. It as if avoids the old kingdom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_of_Poland
Consequently, foreigners are left in the dark and I had to practically do my own research to discover such places. First, I read a book with biographies of Polish kings, which had many illustrations of such buildings as the background and I realized there was something more.
This list is better:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Historic_Monuments_(Poland)
I tried to avoid buildings which were totally destroyed in wars, but these are surprisingly few. It's not so easy to destroy a whole castle or palace. Warsaw, Gdańsk, Wrocław, Poznań, Szczecin were almost completely destroyed in WWII, then rebuilt.
These towns are better, now they are calm and tidy, but there may be some problems with guides, opening hours. Some of these buildings are active monasteries, convents, inaccessible. Where foreign tourists are uncommon, they will be on their own. Young people should speak some English.
Churches are active places of worship and there can be several Masses every day. During a Mass, tourism is impossible. Usually a church has some remarkable altars, paintings, pulpits.
The kingdom also has extensive written archives despite many wars in its territory. Often these are documents concerning everyday life in cities and towns.
48asurbanipal
Believe it or not, but these ancient people visited me several days ago in the evening :)
They just like this thread, the fact that they are still remembered, and I'm also reading the Odyssey right now.
They were walking everywhere in the apartment, a bit spooky, in all places at once.
I couldn't communicate with them, they were as if transparent.
They were very tall, wise, and pure, like Olympic gods. Men dark and intellectual, women sugar-white, noble, and playful.
They even gave me some advice on some unseen waves.
They consider my situation very complex and it's possible that I'm half-alive, half-dead already.
After their visit, I have noticed how many objects in everyday life have Latin or Greek names. Even more so in Polish than in English.
kaloryfer (radiator), komputer (computer), monitor (monitor), telewizor (television), radio (radio), kuchnia (kitchen), kuchenka gazowa (gas cooker), korytarz (corridor), globus (globe), atlas (atlas), higiena (hygiene), ubikacja (toilet) https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/ubikacja;9674.html , sedes (stool in the toilet), termometr (thermometer), wentylator (fan), kalendarz (wall calendar), reklamówka (carrier bag)
They are ghosts and don't need any hygiene.
In the calendar, the names of months are: October, November, December (besides Polish names, which are Slavic) and similarly in French and German.
kubek (mug) is an interesting case:
https://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/S%C5%82ownik_etymologiczny_j%C4%99zyka_polskiego/...
as it comes from Latin cūpa, 'mug for wine'
Wouldn't you be surprised after 2,000 years? They just feel at home in our reality.
Let's say that Plutarch was one of my guests (they were impressive). I have his name and bio in at least four encyclopedias or dictionaries and the Internet is full of Plutarch. He is well remembered.
However,
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes.
They just like this thread, the fact that they are still remembered, and I'm also reading the Odyssey right now.
They were walking everywhere in the apartment, a bit spooky, in all places at once.
I couldn't communicate with them, they were as if transparent.
They were very tall, wise, and pure, like Olympic gods. Men dark and intellectual, women sugar-white, noble, and playful.
They even gave me some advice on some unseen waves.
They consider my situation very complex and it's possible that I'm half-alive, half-dead already.
After their visit, I have noticed how many objects in everyday life have Latin or Greek names. Even more so in Polish than in English.
kaloryfer (radiator), komputer (computer), monitor (monitor), telewizor (television), radio (radio), kuchnia (kitchen), kuchenka gazowa (gas cooker), korytarz (corridor), globus (globe), atlas (atlas), higiena (hygiene), ubikacja (toilet) https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/ubikacja;9674.html , sedes (stool in the toilet), termometr (thermometer), wentylator (fan), kalendarz (wall calendar), reklamówka (carrier bag)
They are ghosts and don't need any hygiene.
In the calendar, the names of months are: October, November, December (besides Polish names, which are Slavic) and similarly in French and German.
kubek (mug) is an interesting case:
https://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/S%C5%82ownik_etymologiczny_j%C4%99zyka_polskiego/...
as it comes from Latin cūpa, 'mug for wine'
Wouldn't you be surprised after 2,000 years? They just feel at home in our reality.
Let's say that Plutarch was one of my guests (they were impressive). I have his name and bio in at least four encyclopedias or dictionaries and the Internet is full of Plutarch. He is well remembered.
However,
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes.
