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1sturlington
In case you're still sitting on the fence on this question, the answer is yes.
In an Oval Office meeting to discuss immigration changes, and specifically immigrants from Haiti, El Salvador, and Africa, the president asked, “Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” (WaPo)
“Trump then suggested that the United States should instead bring more people from countries such as Norway, whose prime minister he met with Wednesday. The president, according to a White House official, also suggested he would be open to more immigrants from Asian countries because he felt they help the United States economically. In addition, the president singled out Haiti, telling lawmakers that immigrants from that country must be left out of any deal, these people said. ‘Why do we need more Haitians?’ Trump said, according to people familiar with the meeting. ‘Take them out.’”
Don Lemon on CNN calling it like it is
In an Oval Office meeting to discuss immigration changes, and specifically immigrants from Haiti, El Salvador, and Africa, the president asked, “Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” (WaPo)
“Trump then suggested that the United States should instead bring more people from countries such as Norway, whose prime minister he met with Wednesday. The president, according to a White House official, also suggested he would be open to more immigrants from Asian countries because he felt they help the United States economically. In addition, the president singled out Haiti, telling lawmakers that immigrants from that country must be left out of any deal, these people said. ‘Why do we need more Haitians?’ Trump said, according to people familiar with the meeting. ‘Take them out.’”
Don Lemon on CNN calling it like it is
2rastaphrog
Trump is now denying he made the comment, and is threatening to record meetings meetings in the future
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/trump-threatens-to-record-future-meetings-after...
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/trump-threatens-to-record-future-meetings-after...
3sturlington
>2 rastaphrog: Donald Trump is a proven liar.
4sturlington
Confirmation of Trump making the comment:
“Trump said these hate-filled things, and he said them repeatedly" Senator Dick Durbin
— Scott Dworkin (@funder) January 12, 2018
Durbin was in the Oval Office when Trump made the "shithole countries" comments yesterday, and he confirms Trump did in fact use that language.#RacistTrump #AMJoyhttps://t.co/LQuGTWTntl
5proximity1
>1 sturlington:
"In case you're still sitting on the fence on this question, the answer is yes."
Oh, well then: 'case closed'. From your mouth (or pen) to God's ear.
Now, moving on from the 'proven' 'racist's' question, " “Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” , suppose someone dared to ask,
“Why are we having all these people from Haiti, El Salvador, and from numerous African countries come here?”
Are there in fact a great many? Shouldn't that be a more interesting repsonse than the conclusion that, here we have it, proof positive from this one, last, unanswerable comment from Trump that the man is a racist---is there* some unjustafiably large number of people immigrating to the U.S. from "these countries"? ( That question might call for some thought; who among those who find no reason at all to reflect on what is, for them, such an easy one as, "Is Trump actually a racist?" is interested in that?)
God forbid we ask that* when what counts is demonstrating that Trump simply has to be a racist since only a racist could say or think such a thing---- just as we learned recently that only irredeemable male moral reprobates ever make lascivious advances on the younger and attractive (to them) women they encounter through their professional work lives, right?
___________________________
Yawn. When might it occur to you that, by all indications, in this endeavor to rhetorically brow-beat others into the view of Trump--your own--you and others on this band-wagon have simply no credibility or moral authority with many of those others who you apparently would like to either convert or cover with shame?
___________________________________________
ETA
It appears that the veracity of the source of the allegation about Trump's use of "shithole" during a White House (Oval Office) meeting is being disputed. Senator David Purdue (R. - Ga.) , one of only six people present, denies the allegation that Trump used the term "shithole." (See post 16 , below.)
More freaked out, hair-on-fire idiocy from pseudo-Liberal over allegations which, it now seems, are false. No other person present at the meeting has spoken publicly--AFAIAA--to corroborate Sen. Durbin's (D.-Il.) allegation.
President Trump--via his "Twitter" accout--has denied the allegation's accuracy.
"In case you're still sitting on the fence on this question, the answer is yes."
Oh, well then: 'case closed'. From your mouth (or pen) to God's ear.
Now, moving on from the 'proven' 'racist's' question, " “Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” , suppose someone dared to ask,
“Why are we having all these people from Haiti, El Salvador, and from numerous African countries come here?”
Are there in fact a great many? Shouldn't that be a more interesting repsonse than the conclusion that, here we have it, proof positive from this one, last, unanswerable comment from Trump that the man is a racist---is there* some unjustafiably large number of people immigrating to the U.S. from "these countries"? ( That question might call for some thought; who among those who find no reason at all to reflect on what is, for them, such an easy one as, "Is Trump actually a racist?" is interested in that?)
God forbid we ask that* when what counts is demonstrating that Trump simply has to be a racist since only a racist could say or think such a thing---- just as we learned recently that only irredeemable male moral reprobates ever make lascivious advances on the younger and attractive (to them) women they encounter through their professional work lives, right?
___________________________
Yawn. When might it occur to you that, by all indications, in this endeavor to rhetorically brow-beat others into the view of Trump--your own--you and others on this band-wagon have simply no credibility or moral authority with many of those others who you apparently would like to either convert or cover with shame?
___________________________________________
ETA
It appears that the veracity of the source of the allegation about Trump's use of "shithole" during a White House (Oval Office) meeting is being disputed. Senator David Purdue (R. - Ga.) , one of only six people present, denies the allegation that Trump used the term "shithole." (See post 16 , below.)
More freaked out, hair-on-fire idiocy from pseudo-Liberal over allegations which, it now seems, are false. No other person present at the meeting has spoken publicly--AFAIAA--to corroborate Sen. Durbin's (D.-Il.) allegation.
President Trump--via his "Twitter" accout--has denied the allegation's accuracy.
7margd
Sounds like Stephen Miller might have been the last person Trump spoke to before the meeting:
...Trump had seemed amenable to a deal earlier in the day during phone calls with lawmakers, aides said, but shifted his position in the meeting and did not seem interested in the bipartisan compromise.
The scene played out hurriedly in the morning. (Sentors) Graham and Durbin (co-authors of the proposal) thought they would be meeting with Trump alone and were surprised to find immigration hard-liners such as Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.) and Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.) at the meeting. White House and Capitol Hill aides say Stephen Miller, the president’s top immigration official, was concerned there could be a deal proposed that was too liberal and made sure conservative lawmakers were present...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-attacks-protections-for-immigrants...
...Trump had seemed amenable to a deal earlier in the day during phone calls with lawmakers, aides said, but shifted his position in the meeting and did not seem interested in the bipartisan compromise.
The scene played out hurriedly in the morning. (Sentors) Graham and Durbin (co-authors of the proposal) thought they would be meeting with Trump alone and were surprised to find immigration hard-liners such as Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.) and Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.) at the meeting. White House and Capitol Hill aides say Stephen Miller, the president’s top immigration official, was concerned there could be a deal proposed that was too liberal and made sure conservative lawmakers were present...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-attacks-protections-for-immigrants...
8lriley
As far as United States history--the way it's immigration history has always worked is pretty much made clear to anyone who has ever take the time to read the inscription on the Statue of Liberty.
Anyway the inscription goes--'Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore, send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door!' That's a true American icon speaking some of the most memorable lines in our history. That a POTUS seems unaware of these words is fucking astounding.
Those words on that inscription is why the United States became a destination for desperately poor people from Europe, Africa, Asia, Latin America, the Caribbean, all these people had a part in what our society has become at the moment--even the better parts--also the worser parts. There's hardly a soul living within our borders that doesn't have a heritage or connection that doesn't harken back to some kind of immigration from somewhere--even among those who would choose Native American there is usually to be found some connection. All instrumental in building and strengthening this country. Not that a fucking plutocrat goof like the current resident of the white house could appreciate or understand that. Most people in Scandinavian countries live fairly decent and healthy lives and are not coming here--at least not anytime soon. We never got much as far as immigration from people who were doing well. Immigrants almost always come our way from hard lived existences. That's part and parcel of the American DNA.
Anyway the inscription goes--'Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore, send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door!' That's a true American icon speaking some of the most memorable lines in our history. That a POTUS seems unaware of these words is fucking astounding.
Those words on that inscription is why the United States became a destination for desperately poor people from Europe, Africa, Asia, Latin America, the Caribbean, all these people had a part in what our society has become at the moment--even the better parts--also the worser parts. There's hardly a soul living within our borders that doesn't have a heritage or connection that doesn't harken back to some kind of immigration from somewhere--even among those who would choose Native American there is usually to be found some connection. All instrumental in building and strengthening this country. Not that a fucking plutocrat goof like the current resident of the white house could appreciate or understand that. Most people in Scandinavian countries live fairly decent and healthy lives and are not coming here--at least not anytime soon. We never got much as far as immigration from people who were doing well. Immigrants almost always come our way from hard lived existences. That's part and parcel of the American DNA.
9RickHarsch
>9 RickHarsch: Thorstein Veblen has some odd hygienic notions.
10margd
The tiny (wretched) Scottish village that spawned Trump
Peter Geoghegan | 5/11/16
...When vast tracts of Lewis were turned into giant sheep farms in the 1820s, many families were moved from elsewhere on the island to Tong (Trump's ancestral home on his mother's side), leading to horrific overcrowding in the village. The situation “beggars all description,” a land manager from the mainland wrote upon visiting Tong in 1828, according to the Scottish historian James Hunter. “It is worse than anything I ever saw in Donegal (in Ireland) where I always considered human wretchedness to have reached its very acme.”...
https://www.politico.eu/article/the-tiny-scottish-village-that-spawned-trump/
Peter Geoghegan | 5/11/16
...When vast tracts of Lewis were turned into giant sheep farms in the 1820s, many families were moved from elsewhere on the island to Tong (Trump's ancestral home on his mother's side), leading to horrific overcrowding in the village. The situation “beggars all description,” a land manager from the mainland wrote upon visiting Tong in 1828, according to the Scottish historian James Hunter. “It is worse than anything I ever saw in Donegal (in Ireland) where I always considered human wretchedness to have reached its very acme.”...
https://www.politico.eu/article/the-tiny-scottish-village-that-spawned-trump/
11margd
Live by vulgarity, die by vulgarity.
The expletive President Trump used last week in a discussion about immigration in the Oval Office and other slogans were projected Saturday night onto an outer wall of the Trump International Hotel in downtown Washington....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/twitter-shows-shithole-projected-on-trump-h...
The expletive President Trump used last week in a discussion about immigration in the Oval Office and other slogans were projected Saturday night onto an outer wall of the Trump International Hotel in downtown Washington....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/twitter-shows-shithole-projected-on-trump-h...
12John5918
As you can imagine, it went down like a lead balloon in Africa. All over the continent there has been an angry reaction from both governments and people.
13margd
I understand the Haitian Embassy was deluged by apologies from regular Americans, but where do you begin when an entire continent is disparaged??
(Read somewhere that higher percentage of Nigerians than Americans possess bachelor degrees.)
(Read somewhere that higher percentage of Nigerians than Americans possess bachelor degrees.)
14rastaphrog
>13 margd: This article gives some percentages for African immigrants vs Americans and Trumps favorite country Norway for education level and jobs held when they get to the USA.
http://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/african-immigrants-are-more-educated-than-most-i...
http://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/african-immigrants-are-more-educated-than-most-i...
15John5918
>14 rastaphrog:
Thanks for that link. Very interesting. One of many issues where the facts do not support the popular prejudice.
Thanks for that link. Very interesting. One of many issues where the facts do not support the popular prejudice.
16proximity1
"The language used by me at the DACA meeting was tough, but this was not the language used. What was really tough was the outlandish proposal made - a big setback for DACA!"
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 12, 2018
_____________________________
"Never said anything derogatory about Haitians other than Haiti is, obviously, a very poor and troubled country. Never said “take them out.” Made up by Dems. I have a wonderful relationship with Haitians. Probably should record future meetings - unfortunately, no trust!"
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 12, 2018
cited at : https://www.dailywire.com/news/25817/dick-durbin-has-history-lying-about-private...
___________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________
RCP :
"Republican Georgia Sen. David Perdue was in the room when President Trump allegedly asked why the U.S. allows so many immigrants from "shithole countries." Perdue says that quote is a "gross misrepresentation" of what the president really said.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/01/14/sen_david_perdue_ridiculous_t...
" 'Multiple sources? There were six of us in the room. I haven't heard any of those six sources -- other than Sen. Durbin talk about what was said,' Perdue said plainly. Dick Durbin, the Illinois Democrat, said Friday that the president used the word 'shithole' to describe African and Latin American countries 'not just once but repeatedly' at a meeting in the Oval Office on Thursday.
"Perdue explained: 'On Thursday we had a meeting, and coming out of that meeting, we heard gross misrepresentation of what happened in that meeting... It is not the first time we’ve had a grossness representation by that individual.' "
...
STEPHANOPOULOS: "Those comments have been confirmed by multiple sources, but you’re saying it didn’t happen?"
PERDUE: "Multiple sources? There were six of us in the room. I haven’t heard any of those six sources other than Senator Durbin talk about what was said."
STEPHANOPOULOS: "Look, Senator Graham told Senator Scott that the reports were basically accurate."
PERDUE: "Well that’s – you’ll have to deal with him. Basically is an operative word. The trouble here is that Senator Durbin came and brought a proposal, and let’s put this in perspective."
...
STEPHANOPOULOS: "Are you saying the president did not use the word that has been so widely reported?"
PERDUE: "I’m telling you he did not use that word, George, and I’m telling you it’s a gross misrepresentation. How many times you want me to say that?"
__________________________________
Cited from ABC News "This Week" a Sunday Washington, D.C. political pundit program.
_________________________________________________
Let’s review:
In a thread entitled “Lock Them Up”, Sturlington gave relayed what proved to be an erroneous account about a reported deal between former Trump administration advisor, Michael Flynn and the U.S. Justice Department in the form of a plea-bargain.
The next day we learned ABC Suspends Reporter Brian Ross Over Erroneous Report About Trump By VIVIAN WANG; DEC. 2, 2017
Then, later in the same thread, Sturlington posted a relay of what proved to be another erroneous news report about a subpoena having been served on Deutsche Bank for records pertaining to Trump: “Deutsche Bank receives subpoena from Mueller on Trump accounts ”
Which prompted me to reply, LOL! Now I just read Sturlington to reassure myself about what isn't a fact.
17jjwilson61
But it's not just the word itself (and with both Durbin and Graham confirming it it seems likely he used it) it's the thought behind it. Without using the word, he said that he didn't want to allow people from Haiti or Africa (which a predominantly black) from coming to this country. That's racist.
18proximity1
And now the "walk-back" : >17 jjwilson61:
LOL!
What do you mean, "not just the word itself"!? (emphasis added).
The word "itself" apparently wasn't used-- so where do you get off attaching "not just" to a word which has been denied by Trump, and Trump's denial corroborated by Sen. Perdue?
If Senator Durbin is telling the truth, why don't other fellow Democrats present at the meeting back up his allegation? Perdue said, (quote) "Multiple sources? There were six of us in the room. I haven’t heard any of those six sources other than Senator Durbin talk about what was said."
"basically accurate" doesn't cut it in this case--or, indeed, in any case where, as experience has shown over and over, practically without exception, that Trump's words are relayed either falsely as to their verbatim content or their intent is wildly distorted from what a reasonable person could interpret them to have meant.
"basically accurate" here is tantamount to a refusal to corroborate the strict language being alleged: Trump either did or did not use the term "shithole" in reference to certain nations.
It seems clear that, had he actually used that term, we would not be hearing the event described as "basically accurate." In other words, it is apparently false that Trump used that term. And, again, the nation's so-called respectable press went ape-shit without first finding out the facts.
This seems to be acceptable to you.
I call it disgraceful. If "shithole" is a disgraceful term for a president to use in an official meeting, then it is disgraceful that he be falsely accused of using that term.
Period.
LOL!
What do you mean, "not just the word itself"!? (emphasis added).
The word "itself" apparently wasn't used-- so where do you get off attaching "not just" to a word which has been denied by Trump, and Trump's denial corroborated by Sen. Perdue?
If Senator Durbin is telling the truth, why don't other fellow Democrats present at the meeting back up his allegation? Perdue said, (quote) "Multiple sources? There were six of us in the room. I haven’t heard any of those six sources other than Senator Durbin talk about what was said."
"Senator Tim Scott, Republican of South Carolina, told The Post and Courier of Charleston that Mr. Graham had related Mr. Trump’s remarks to him after the meeting, and he called news reports about them 'basically accurate' based on that account.
... ...
" 'Following comments by the president, I said my piece directly to him yesterday,' Mr. Graham said. “The president and all those attending the meeting know what I said and how I feel. I’ve always believed that America is an idea, not defined by its people but by its ideals.”
"In Twitter posts on Friday, Mr. Trump charged that Democrats had fabricated parts of the exchange even as he defended the sentiment that prompted them.
"Mr. Trump said he 'never said anything derogatory about Haitians other than Haiti is, obviously, a very poor and troubled country,' and denied that he had asked to remove them from the immigration proposal, adding: 'Made up by Dems.'
"In a joint statement released on Friday, two Republican senators who also attended the session, Tom Cotton of Arkansas and David Perdue of Georgia, charged that Democrats were acting dishonorably, claiming that they could not remember whether Mr. Trump used the words attributed to him."
"basically accurate" doesn't cut it in this case--or, indeed, in any case where, as experience has shown over and over, practically without exception, that Trump's words are relayed either falsely as to their verbatim content or their intent is wildly distorted from what a reasonable person could interpret them to have meant.
"basically accurate" here is tantamount to a refusal to corroborate the strict language being alleged: Trump either did or did not use the term "shithole" in reference to certain nations.
It seems clear that, had he actually used that term, we would not be hearing the event described as "basically accurate." In other words, it is apparently false that Trump used that term. And, again, the nation's so-called respectable press went ape-shit without first finding out the facts.
This seems to be acceptable to you.
I call it disgraceful. If "shithole" is a disgraceful term for a president to use in an official meeting, then it is disgraceful that he be falsely accused of using that term.
Period.
19RickHarsch
>18 proximity1: From an article in the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/15/i-am-not-a-racist-trump-says-aft...
''But Erick Erickson, a conservative pundit, tweeted: “It’s weird that people in the room don’t remember Trump using that word when Trump himself was calling friends to brag about it afterwards. I spoke to one of those friends. The president thought it would play well with the base …”
Josh Dawsey, a reporter for the Washington Post, tweeted: “White House official told me there is debate internally on whether Trump said ‘shithole’ or ‘shithouse’. Perdue and Cotton seem to have heard latter, this person said, and are using to deny.”'
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/15/i-am-not-a-racist-trump-says-aft...
''But Erick Erickson, a conservative pundit, tweeted: “It’s weird that people in the room don’t remember Trump using that word when Trump himself was calling friends to brag about it afterwards. I spoke to one of those friends. The president thought it would play well with the base …”
Josh Dawsey, a reporter for the Washington Post, tweeted: “White House official told me there is debate internally on whether Trump said ‘shithole’ or ‘shithouse’. Perdue and Cotton seem to have heard latter, this person said, and are using to deny.”'
20jjwilson61
I can hardly be walking anything back if this is the first time I've posted anything about it. You act as if everyone with an opposing viewpoint is coordinating with each other.
21John5918
Africa Should Respond to Trump's Racist Rant By Taking the Moral High Ground (allAfrica)
But in dealing with Trump, normal protocols are beside the point.
More than a year after he took office Trump has yet to announce an Africa policy, or even fill important diplomatic positions. He has yet to nominate an Assistant Secretary of State for Africa or an ambassador to South Africa. This means that African leaders lack any policy context in which to frame and guide traditional diplomatic reactions.
The Trump administration's incompetence makes it difficult for African countries to engage Washington in seeking meaningful explanations, much less substantive negotiations...
22southernbooklady
>21 John5918: All anyone needs to do to take the moral high ground with Trump is stand on a chair.
23proximity1
>22 southernbooklady:
Actually, a rather simple way would be for one of the Democrats--just one credible Democrat who was present at the meeting--to speak up publicly and corroborate the claim of Senator Durbin.
What is difficult about that? You want "moral highground"? Stop swimming in the sewer then, treating Trump to false accusations. If Trump is so terrible, you should not have to make shit up and traffic in lies, rumor and innuendo as is constantly the case.
You don't have a fucking chair. No chair, no stool, no step. For moral high ground, you got nuthin'.
Actually, a rather simple way would be for one of the Democrats--just one credible Democrat who was present at the meeting--to speak up publicly and corroborate the claim of Senator Durbin.
What is difficult about that? You want "moral highground"? Stop swimming in the sewer then, treating Trump to false accusations. If Trump is so terrible, you should not have to make shit up and traffic in lies, rumor and innuendo as is constantly the case.
You don't have a fucking chair. No chair, no stool, no step. For moral high ground, you got nuthin'.
24RickHarsch
>23 proximity1: There are conflicting accounts, indeed. Trump allies, of course, deny the claim that the shithead in chief used the term 'shithole', as they say that they thought they heard 'shithouse'. This seems a minor point, but aside from being a meaningless distinction it is likely false because it is unlikely that even a man as verbally challenged as Trump would refer to a country as a shithouse, while shithole does ring true.
The most revealing aspect of proximity's 'thinking' on this matter is that he has taken the vague disavowels of Trump allies as truth proving Durbin's and Graham's versions as false. So rather than consider the evidence, he simply chooses his truth according to his own desires.
The most revealing aspect of proximity's 'thinking' on this matter is that he has taken the vague disavowels of Trump allies as truth proving Durbin's and Graham's versions as false. So rather than consider the evidence, he simply chooses his truth according to his own desires.
25margd
Former President and COO of Trump Plaza Casino said Trump instructed him to not have a black employee (a CFO!) count money because "it's probably not his fault, but laziness is a trait in blacks". He'd rather have "short guys in yamulkes" count his money. O'Donnell says he believes everyone who has spent casual time with Trump knows he is racist, but don't say so for one reason or another.
_____________________________________
O'Donnell: I believe Trump is racist
Anderson Cooper 360 | 1/15/2017 (2:28)
Former Trump executive Jack O'Donnell tells CNN's Anderson Cooper that he believes President Trump is "racist," saying he made bigoted statements about African-Americans and Jews during a conversation he had with Trump.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/01/16/donald-trump-statement-african-ame...
_____________________________________
O'Donnell: I believe Trump is racist
Anderson Cooper 360 | 1/15/2017 (2:28)
Former Trump executive Jack O'Donnell tells CNN's Anderson Cooper that he believes President Trump is "racist," saying he made bigoted statements about African-Americans and Jews during a conversation he had with Trump.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/01/16/donald-trump-statement-african-ame...
26jjwilson61
>23 proximity1: Actually, a rather simple way would be for one of the Democrats--just one credible Democrat who was present at the meeting--to speak up publicly and corroborate the claim of Senator Durbin.
Are you positive there were other Democrats at that meeting? Who were they? I've looked for news reports that listed all the attendees and this is the best I could find: http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/13/politics/trump-remark-reaction/index.html. The intro to the piece says "Here's what those who attended the meeting said afterward about the controversy" and the only Democrat listed is Dick Durban.
Are you positive there were other Democrats at that meeting? Who were they? I've looked for news reports that listed all the attendees and this is the best I could find: http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/13/politics/trump-remark-reaction/index.html. The intro to the piece says "Here's what those who attended the meeting said afterward about the controversy" and the only Democrat listed is Dick Durban.
27RickHarsch
>24 RickHarsch: I wonder if anyone would be so kind as to explain to me how this post was flagworthy.
28proximity1
>26 jjwilson61:
Try this :
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/368445-bipartisan-senate-group-close-on-daca-...
Sen. David Perdue (R.-Ga.),
Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.),
Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.),
Richard Durbin (D.-IL.),
Sens. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.),
and Michael Bennet (D-Colo.)
...“the bipartisan Senate group, which has been negotiating for months, has also discussed changes to the diversity lottery program”…
See also :
In the Senate
Bipartisans: The "Gang of Six" consists of six senators from across the aisle that have been working on a DACA deal for months. Because the Senate needs Democrats to pass a deal, they've been working towards a proposal that we could get members on board from both parties.
The group is led by Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham (R.) and Durbin (D.), who together introduced a bill last year that would allow immigrants who came to the country illegally as children to earn lawful permanent residence and eventually American citizenship.
Also in the gang are senators from states with large immigrant populations, including the two senators from Colorado -- Democrat Michael Bennet and Republican Cory Gardner. One border state -- Arizona -- is represented in the group with (Jeff) Flake (R.), who's played a vocal role in demanding a bipartisan process. Democratic Sen. Bob Menendez of New Jersey recently joined the group, bringing the total to six. All members were part of the 2013 immigration "Gang of Eight," with the exception of Gardner, who was not in the Senate at the time.
http://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/11/politics/key-players-immigration-congress/inde...
_______________________
(Boldface is added)
29jjwilson61
>28 proximity1: Neither of those articles actually say who was in the meeting last Thursday with the President. I agree that it seems odd that Menendez and Bennet weren't in the meeting, but that seems to be what the article I linked to suggests.
30proximity1
>29 jjwilson61:
Well, we have it from the mouth of Sen. Perdue--who was present--that there were only six people in the room with Trump. They were (supposedly) members of this so-called bi-partisan group on immigration.
From your linked article--IF we can credit it--you can deduce the people who were present--
and there had to be at least 7, not counting Trump---which directly contradicts Sen. Perdue's word.
They are :
Richard Durbin (D.-IL.), (Minority Whip)
Sen. David Perdue (R.-Ga.),
Sen. Tom Cotton (R.-AR.)
House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R.-CA.)
Rep. Robert Goodlatte (R.-VA.)
Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart (R—FL.)
Officials present who are not members of Congress:
Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen
making Sen. Durbin the only Democrat member of Congress among the six, or seven, depending on how one counts the meetings' membership.
Also, since the Senate's group is called the"Gang of Six", and there weretwo three House members present, then, if all six Senators were also present, there had to have been three more present, bringing the total to ten, not counting the president--which, again, contradicts Sen. Perdue's comments on ABC's "This Week."
So, who ya gonna believe---hmm?
Well, we have it from the mouth of Sen. Perdue--who was present--that there were only six people in the room with Trump. They were (supposedly) members of this so-called bi-partisan group on immigration.
From your linked article--IF we can credit it--you can deduce the people who were present--
and there had to be at least 7, not counting Trump---which directly contradicts Sen. Perdue's word.
They are :
Richard Durbin (D.-IL.), (Minority Whip)
Sen. David Perdue (R.-Ga.),
Sen. Tom Cotton (R.-AR.)
House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R.-CA.)
Rep. Robert Goodlatte (R.-VA.)
Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart (R—FL.)
Officials present who are not members of Congress:
Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen
making Sen. Durbin the only Democrat member of Congress among the six, or seven, depending on how one counts the meetings' membership.
Also, since the Senate's group is called the"Gang of Six", and there were
So, who ya gonna believe---hmm?
31RickHarsch
An antidote to apologist ranting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZSR6xUHf-4
32jjwilson61
>30 proximity1:
Apparently what happened was that Durbin and Graham went to the White House to get Trump's blessing on the deal and were met by Trump and a group of immigration hardliners who apparently got to Trump first and turned him against the deal. That's why there was only one Democrat in the room.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-the-tense-profane-white-house-mee...
Apparently what happened was that Durbin and Graham went to the White House to get Trump's blessing on the deal and were met by Trump and a group of immigration hardliners who apparently got to Trump first and turned him against the deal. That's why there was only one Democrat in the room.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-the-tense-profane-white-house-mee...
33proximity1
Liberals ought to consider carefully which of the following two things is actually the worse for Haiti and Hatians and various African states in similarly difficult circumstances:
(allegedly--and probably falsely-accused) Trump's referral to certain countries as "shithole" countries
OR
contributing to the drain of badly-needed talent from these countries by granting U.S. residence visas to their bright, young citizens who seek to emigrate to the U.S.
(allegedly--and probably falsely-accused) Trump's referral to certain countries as "shithole" countries
OR
contributing to the drain of badly-needed talent from these countries by granting U.S. residence visas to their bright, young citizens who seek to emigrate to the U.S.
35John5918
>33 proximity1:
No, actually it is Haitian and Africans who can make that decision for themselves. Offer the opportunity and let them decide. They don't need US liberals or conservatives to make that decision for them, thank you.
No, actually it is Haitian and Africans who can make that decision for themselves. Offer the opportunity and let them decide. They don't need US liberals or conservatives to make that decision for them, thank you.
36proximity1
>35 John5918:
How many Hatians at their first opportunity (18 years of age) could not only afford to refuse an actual opportunity to relocate to the U.S.--especially if they are demonstrably exceptionally bright and talented--the types most likely to win a spot?-- in any of the ways which the present-day U.S. business-culture rewards with obscene pay-packages?--but could and also would refuse such an opportunity even if, as the case may be, objectively speaking, they have, realistically, _zero_ prospects in the home-country and they know this--because, indeed, they are smart?
Those are the Hatians, or the Ghanaians or Malians or Sudanese, the Somalians, Ethiopians, the Ivoirians which the U.S. Immigration authorities would want to see enter.
________________________
consider some statistics :
Haiti
Population (Note 1 below): 10,8m / world rank: 85th
Density (Note 2 below) : 382/km2 / world rank: 32nd
Literacy (adult) rate by % (Note 3 below) : 61 / world rank: 204th
______________
Democratic Republic of the Congo,
also known as Zaire, DR Congo,
DRC, DROC,
Congo-Kinshasa
or simply the Congo
Population: 78,7m / world rank: 16th/13th
Density: 34.83/km2 / world rank: N/A
Literacy: 77 / world rank: 182nd
_____________
Egypt
Population: 94,8m / world rank:
Density: 96/km2 / world rank: 118th
Literacy: 75 / world rank: 166th
_____________
Ethiopia
Population: 102,4m / world rank: 12th
Density: 92.7/km2 / world rank: 123rd
Literacy: 49 / world rank: 208th
_____________
Ghana
Population: 27m / world rank: 45th
Density : 101.5/km2 / world rank: 103rd
Literacy : 77 / world rank: 172nd
_____________
Ivory Coast
Population: 26.5m / world rank: ~ 54th
Density: 63.9/km2 / world rank: 139th
Literacy: 43 / world rank: 195th
_____________
Nigeria
Population: 186m / world rank: 7th
Density: 197.2/km2 / world rank: 71st
Literacy: 60 / world rank: 188th
_____________
Somalia
Population: 14.3m / world rank: 76th
Density: 19.3 /km2 / world rank: 199th
Literacy: N/A / world rank: 209th
_____________
Sudan
Population: 39.6m / world rank: 35th
Density: 21.3/km2 / world rank: N/A
Literacy: 54 / world rank: 171st
_____________
Tanzania
Population: 55.6m / world rank: 28th
Density: 47.5/km2 / world rank: N/A
Literacy: 80 / world rank: 179th
_____________
__________________________________________________
(1) Population: rounded to the nearest 100k (Source: Wikipedia / UN DESA )
(2) Density : pop. /km2 (Source: Wikipedia / UN DESA )
(3) Literacy rate : rounded to the nearest 1% (Source: UNESCO) / Rank (Source : https://www.indexmundi.com/)
How many Hatians at their first opportunity (18 years of age) could not only afford to refuse an actual opportunity to relocate to the U.S.--especially if they are demonstrably exceptionally bright and talented--the types most likely to win a spot?-- in any of the ways which the present-day U.S. business-culture rewards with obscene pay-packages?--but could and also would refuse such an opportunity even if, as the case may be, objectively speaking, they have, realistically, _zero_ prospects in the home-country and they know this--because, indeed, they are smart?
Those are the Hatians, or the Ghanaians or Malians or Sudanese, the Somalians, Ethiopians, the Ivoirians which the U.S. Immigration authorities would want to see enter.
________________________
consider some statistics :
Haiti
Population (Note 1 below): 10,8m / world rank: 85th
Density (Note 2 below) : 382/km2 / world rank: 32nd
Literacy (adult) rate by % (Note 3 below) : 61 / world rank: 204th
______________
Democratic Republic of the Congo,
also known as Zaire, DR Congo,
DRC, DROC,
Congo-Kinshasa
or simply the Congo
Population: 78,7m / world rank: 16th/13th
Density: 34.83/km2 / world rank: N/A
Literacy: 77 / world rank: 182nd
_____________
Egypt
Population: 94,8m / world rank:
Density: 96/km2 / world rank: 118th
Literacy: 75 / world rank: 166th
_____________
Ethiopia
Population: 102,4m / world rank: 12th
Density: 92.7/km2 / world rank: 123rd
Literacy: 49 / world rank: 208th
_____________
Ghana
Population: 27m / world rank: 45th
Density : 101.5/km2 / world rank: 103rd
Literacy : 77 / world rank: 172nd
_____________
Ivory Coast
Population: 26.5m / world rank: ~ 54th
Density: 63.9/km2 / world rank: 139th
Literacy: 43 / world rank: 195th
_____________
Nigeria
Population: 186m / world rank: 7th
Density: 197.2/km2 / world rank: 71st
Literacy: 60 / world rank: 188th
_____________
Somalia
Population: 14.3m / world rank: 76th
Density: 19.3 /km2 / world rank: 199th
Literacy: N/A / world rank: 209th
_____________
Sudan
Population: 39.6m / world rank: 35th
Density: 21.3/km2 / world rank: N/A
Literacy: 54 / world rank: 171st
_____________
Tanzania
Population: 55.6m / world rank: 28th
Density: 47.5/km2 / world rank: N/A
Literacy: 80 / world rank: 179th
_____________
__________________________________________________
(1) Population: rounded to the nearest 100k (Source: Wikipedia / UN DESA )
(2) Density : pop. /km2 (Source: Wikipedia / UN DESA )
(3) Literacy rate : rounded to the nearest 1% (Source: UNESCO) / Rank (Source : https://www.indexmundi.com/)
37John5918
In the same vein as >14 rastaphrog:, there's an article by Nicholas Kristof in today's New York Times entitled "The reality of maligned countries" giving some facts and statistics about areas where "shithole" African countries are doing rather well, in some cases better than the USA.
I read it this morning in a hard copy of the NYT and can't find it online.
I read it this morning in a hard copy of the NYT and can't find it online.
38RickHarsch
>36 proximity1: "How many Hatians at their first opportunity (18 years of age) could not only afford to refuse an actual opportunity to relocate to the U.S.--especially if they are demonstrably exceptionally bright and talented--the types most likely to win a spot?"
This demonstrates a profound ignorance of human nature itself. Most people, wherever they are born, tend to want to remain among their own people. Migration is a very difficult process--it was for me, and I did not flee the US because of poverty. It is far more difficult for economic migrants. But more pertinent is the fact that talented, 'exceptionally bright' people are likely to work to change/improve the circumstances of their homeland. I have a close acquaintance with both Hong Kong and India. In Hong Kong a great many people left, fearing changes the Chinese would bring in when they re-acquired the territory. In one family I know, two young men, both demonstrably bright and talented, made different decisions. One left--not to the US--and the other remained. Fear of political repression appears to be as great an impetus as economic blight. There was a lot of discussion about 'brain drain' in Hong Kong, fear that too many professionals, doctors in particular, would leave. And many did (many did not); but most fascinating to me was that even before 1997 the trend had shifted and migrants were returning (Toronto was a popular destination) faster than they were leaving, as they found that the exchanges were not worth it.
I have even more experience with Indians. The most 'exceptionally bright and talented' man I know well went into law and never considered leaving Chennai, where he quickly became important in both government and business.
There is a great deal of literature about the deleterious effects of migrating from India to the US.
The most 'exceptionally bright and talented' Indian migrant I know was in a very difficult position as his family considered his move to the US necessary, but he hated US culture. He could thrive here economically and did, first in computers, then in publishing and translating. But circumstances forced him to do something he never wanted to do: become a US citizen. His wife joined him in the US. Both deeply disliked the country. So he shifted gears again. He got a job in the state department, and worked his way from country to country until he finally, now is back in India, working for the US consulate but finally home.
Oddly, the opposite of what #36 writes is true in a sense. The most talented Haitians can actually better afford to stay in Haiti. Like it or not, those who come are those most desperate.
This demonstrates a profound ignorance of human nature itself. Most people, wherever they are born, tend to want to remain among their own people. Migration is a very difficult process--it was for me, and I did not flee the US because of poverty. It is far more difficult for economic migrants. But more pertinent is the fact that talented, 'exceptionally bright' people are likely to work to change/improve the circumstances of their homeland. I have a close acquaintance with both Hong Kong and India. In Hong Kong a great many people left, fearing changes the Chinese would bring in when they re-acquired the territory. In one family I know, two young men, both demonstrably bright and talented, made different decisions. One left--not to the US--and the other remained. Fear of political repression appears to be as great an impetus as economic blight. There was a lot of discussion about 'brain drain' in Hong Kong, fear that too many professionals, doctors in particular, would leave. And many did (many did not); but most fascinating to me was that even before 1997 the trend had shifted and migrants were returning (Toronto was a popular destination) faster than they were leaving, as they found that the exchanges were not worth it.
I have even more experience with Indians. The most 'exceptionally bright and talented' man I know well went into law and never considered leaving Chennai, where he quickly became important in both government and business.
There is a great deal of literature about the deleterious effects of migrating from India to the US.
The most 'exceptionally bright and talented' Indian migrant I know was in a very difficult position as his family considered his move to the US necessary, but he hated US culture. He could thrive here economically and did, first in computers, then in publishing and translating. But circumstances forced him to do something he never wanted to do: become a US citizen. His wife joined him in the US. Both deeply disliked the country. So he shifted gears again. He got a job in the state department, and worked his way from country to country until he finally, now is back in India, working for the US consulate but finally home.
Oddly, the opposite of what #36 writes is true in a sense. The most talented Haitians can actually better afford to stay in Haiti. Like it or not, those who come are those most desperate.
39btuckertx
>37 John5918: Possibly this piece? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/opinion/shithole-countries-africa.html
40RickHarsch
Well, in these dark and dipshit-filled times we could use another few thousand Thorstein Veblens if they are willing to help.
41theoria
>40 RickHarsch: Another few thousand Knut Hamsuns would be more to Mr Trump's political tastes.
42RickHarsch
>You of course refer to the older, more pathetic, disappointed Knut...
44John5918
>39 btuckertx:
Thanks, that's the one. It had a different title in the NYT hard copy (possibly the international edition as I read it in Rome) and it didn't have the cartoon.
Thanks, that's the one. It had a different title in the NYT hard copy (possibly the international edition as I read it in Rome) and it didn't have the cartoon.
45John5918
>20 jjwilson61: You act as if everyone with an opposing viewpoint is coordinating with each other.
Good comment, jj. I just saw the following in today's Grauniad and it reminded me a bit of your post:
Good comment, jj. I just saw the following in today's Grauniad and it reminded me a bit of your post:
Let’s get real about what a social movement actually is. It does not come organised, strategised, streamlined and clean. It does not come neatly presented by experienced journalists and authorised by legal ombudsmen. It’s messy. It’s chaotic. It ebbs and flows and expands and retracts because it’s a human phenomenon. It takes place in the streets and in unofficial publications, and is propelled, most crucially, by a collective imagination. And historically, the imagination of a movement is led by the young. ..
46John5918
Donald Trump prepared to apologise for retweeting Britain First (Guardian)
Same story also on BBC
He claims he didn't know they were racist...
And another piece on racism and the right wing from the Grauniad
How the far right has perfected the art of deniable racism
Same story also on BBC
He claims he didn't know they were racist...
And another piece on racism and the right wing from the Grauniad
How the far right has perfected the art of deniable racism
This is the electoral challenge of the extreme right in the west: to find a plausible balance between how racist it actually is, in its policies, and how racist it can appear to be in its pronouncements. Its raison d’etre is to promote and project a mythical sense of national and racial purity; its conundrum is how to simultaneously attract racists and xenophobes to that project while denouncing racism and xenophobia. In short, to deny any connection between its agenda and the intended effect...
47rastaphrog
>46 John5918: While he may be prepared to, I don't think he's too happy about the idea after reading this little bit...
“If you are telling me they’re horrible people – horrible, racist people – I would certainly apologise if you’d like me to do that,” he told the presenter, Piers Morgan.
IMO, this sounds more like a "I'm sorry. You happy now?" apology than a sincere one. He says he didn't know what the group was like, but he didn't make much effort to find out either. Or to verify how the videos were being presented. I knew as soon as I saw them that the one had been debunked by the Dutch, and that the other two were being misrepresented.
“If you are telling me they’re horrible people – horrible, racist people – I would certainly apologise if you’d like me to do that,” he told the presenter, Piers Morgan.
IMO, this sounds more like a "I'm sorry. You happy now?" apology than a sincere one. He says he didn't know what the group was like, but he didn't make much effort to find out either. Or to verify how the videos were being presented. I knew as soon as I saw them that the one had been debunked by the Dutch, and that the other two were being misrepresented.
