Domestic Terrorism, Fascism (4)

#147 in thread 3, Trump Ohio rally

Caroline Orr Bueno, Ph.D @RVAwonk
...Behavioral Scientist. Postdoc at UMD. Studying mis/disinformation, cognitive security, mediated communication, & crises.

Re. Last night’s #TrumpRally: While often taking on the appearance of entertainment, rallies actually serve an incredibly important purpose in fascist movements, and we’d be wise not to write them off as a sideshow that can be ignored. 1/

Trump’s supporters don’t go to his rallies to be lied to; they go to participate in the process of co-creating a false reality that relies on social proof to survive. It’s a performance in which they must all take part — a collective reshaping of reality. A partnership. 2/

The purpose of Trump’s style of authoritarian propaganda is not just to deceive people — it’s to articulate and reinforce what the crowd already believes to be true, and to encourage individuals to unify around this false reality and make it their own. 3/

Last night’s rally ticked a lot of boxes on the fascism checklist:

-Talk of an “invasion” of foreigners
-Warning that “sicko leftists” are “indoctrinating” and “destroying our youth”
-Fear-mongering about “skyrocketing” crime
-Denying the legitimacy of political opponents 5/
-Turning political rivals into enemies and existential threats to be destroyed
-Seizing upon the collective fears & anxieties of the crowd, then transforming them into mass disdain for immigrants, trans folks, leftists, & others. 6/
-Denying the legitimacy of elections
-Portraying the US as a crime-ridden, immoral nation in decline — and offering himself as the only one who can save it.
-Attacking the press as the “enemy of the people” 7/
-Attacking the FBI, the DOJ, the J6 Committee, and other institutions designed to hold power accountable.
-Attacking our public education system
-Claiming that Democrats “hate America” and want to “destroy it” 8/

The propaganda at last night’s #TrumpRally wasn’t new. We’ve heard it many times before — often, verbatim. Here’s just one example.

The repetition is purposeful. Both for cognitive effects & cultural meaning — like the retelling of ancient myths about 5-headed monsters. 9/
{~ Biden done more damage than 5 prez }
Newsmax ( https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1571716367505555456/photo/1 )
SkyNews AU ( https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1571716367505555456/photo/2 )
Real America News ( https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1571716367505555456/photo/3 )
Apex World News { https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1571716367505555456/photo/4 }

The repetition of these myths is aided by the well-oiled machinery of the right-wing media ecosystem, which functions like a hall of mirrors and helps legitimize the false reality. This is key to keeping people constantly engaged, mobilized, & immersed in the false reality. 10/

But that’s not all. While Trump is mobilizing the mob at rallies and the media is feeding them constant content to help shape & define their shared false reality, Trump’s allies & loyalists are also hard at work, each with a unique role to play in this assault on democracy. 11/

Gen. Michael Flynn is really commanding the show. With his “ReAwaken America Tour”, he’s creating a movement that is nothing short of QAnon 2.0, except with more Christian nationalism and a lot more money behind it. It’s an influence machine, and he knows how to drive it. 12/
Posters, photo
https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1571716378419249155/photo/1
https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1571716378419249155/photo/2
https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1571716378419249155/photo/3
https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1571716378419249155/photo/4

Steve Bannon and Roger Stone are two other major figures involved in the ReAwaken America Tour. Along w/ Flynn, they’re weaponizing sociocultural issues to craft a conspiratorial, apocalyptic narrative that wraps right-wing ideology in biblical language & imagery. 13/
Photos
https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1571716386048671745/photo/1
https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1571716386048671745/photo/2

There’s much more to say about this, and I’ll get to it soon, but the tldr is that these rallies are part of a sophisticated, multi-pronged attack on democracy that combines elements of Cambridge Analytica-style targeting with QAnon-style participatory disinformation... 14/

…plus Christian nationalism and authoritarian fear-mongering & scapegoating. This is a huge coalition involving militias, churches, media, think tanks, nonprofits, celebrities, influencers, elected officials, local political parties, Trump loyalists, & more.

It’s a machine. 15/

They’re trying to sell fascism to America by inviting supporters to take part in the creation of a new national fiction. This isn’t just politicians lying to citizens — it’s an entire movement focused on shattering our shared reality & replacing it with their ideology. 16/

This is, in many ways, a high-stakes battle of narratives — and unfortunately, fascists are great storytellers. 17/

>1 margd: you still have to want to believe these lies and still have to want to belong to this movement. There is individual responsibility.

As well the greatest fear among many of the believers is that they will be kicked out of their little movement for not being able to pass all the ever more extreme right wing litmus tests. My take on Qanon is there is only so far that that can go. So many who are going to fall for all the crazy conspiracy theory shit. It's like Giuliani waving his papers (his so called evidence) around. He never shows it. They don't either. It's all innuendo and they never really reveal anything and it's also like the same game the end timer evangelists play that Jesus is right on his way and the rapture is right behind him or a spaceship to heaven. People who desperately want to believe in something.....anything. These really are fascists but at the same time it's a huckster show.

Time to resurrect my copy of the little book The True Believer.

"he is expected to make a full recovery"

Nancy Pelosi's husband was 'violently assaulted' during a home invasion, her office says
Rebecca Shabad | Oct. 28, 2022

WASHINGTON — House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's husband, Paul Pelosi, was "violently assaulted" early Friday by an assailant who broke into their home in San Francisco, according to a statement from her office.

The suspect, who was taken into custody, attacked Paul Pelosi, 82, with a hammer, two people briefed on the incident told NBC News...

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/pelosis-husband-violently-assaulted-as...
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Michael Beschloss @BeschlossDC | 12:24 PM · Oct 28, 2022:
PRESIDENTS OF WAR, 9 other books. @NBCNews, Presidential Historian. Host, “Fireside History,” MSNBC on @Peacock . PBS contributor.

So, from reports, an attacker with a hammer entered the Pelosi home, crying, "Where is Nancy?"

____________________________________

margd: Apparently, the Speaker was not at home. If she had been, there would have been security. As it was, there were just security cameras.
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ETA:

Jon Cooper @joncoopertweets | 1:50 PM · Oct 28, 2022:
Former National Finance Chair of Draft Biden, LI Campaign Chair for Barack Obama.

BREAKING: Paul Pelosi is undergoing brain surgery.

There is NO place for violence in our democracy. This horrible attack MUST be condemned by Marjorie Taylor Greene, Tucker Carlson, and Donald Trump NOW!
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MeidasTouch @MeidasTouch | 1:47 PM · Oct 28, 2022:
The suspect in the attack of Paul Pelosi has been confirmed to be a 42-year-old right-wing extremist who spread 2020 election conspiracy theories, COVID disinformation, and hatred of the Jan 6 committee.
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Peter Gleick 🇺🇸 @PeterGleick | 1:44 PM · Oct 28, 2022:
Climate, water, energy. Science communication. National Academy of Sciences. MacArthur Fellow. Birds. Mandolin. 2018 Carl Sagan Prize.

The Speaker of the House is second in line of succession, after the Vice President.
A GOP terrorist just tried to assassinate her.

Biden cannot bring down the temperature of the political discourse because the MAGA cult members do not believe he is actually America's 46th president.

Is the hammer attacker going to become another Kyle-Rittenhouse-type hero for the MAGA cult??? Today's FOX News discussions lead me to believe that type of an outcome is a possibility.

Notecards of JFK’s last words, written for end of speech he planned to give at Austin, Texas, banquet on the evening of November 22, 1963:

Text, note cards
https://twitter.com/BeschlossDC/status/1585747885555154944/photo/1

- Michael Beschloss @BeschlossDC | 5:38 PM · Oct 27, 2022:
PRESIDENTS OF WAR, 9 other books. @NBCNews
Presidential Historian. Host, “Fireside History,” MSNBC on @Peacock. PBS contributor.

"In the five years since Mr. Trump was elected in 2016, the number of recorded threats against members of Congress increased more than tenfold, to 9,625 in 2021, according to the Capitol Police. Many lawmakers say they live with a sense of dread ...."

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/28/us/politics/nancy-paul-pelosi-attack.html

Nicole Sganga @NicoleSganga | 5:06 PM · Oct 28, 2022:
CBS News Homeland Security & Justice reporter || formerly #Campaign2020 @UniofOxford @notredame

NEW: Days before midterms, the U.S. is warning of a “heightened threat” to the 2022 elections, fueled by a rise in domestic violent extremism and driven by ideological grievances & access to potential targets, according to a joint intelligence bulletin obtained by @CBSNews . 1/x

“Potential targets of DVE violence include candidates running for public office, elected officials, election workers, political rallies, political party representatives, racial & religious minorities or perceived ideological opponents,” the DHS, FBI, NCTC, USCP memo states. 2/x

The bulletin also warns extremists might target state & local government fixtures *after* the election.

Potential targets include officials or private companies associated with vote counting/certifications and judicial figures involved in election-related legal challenges. 3/x

Full story: New intel memo cautions that government officials and personnel will likely remain "attractive targets" to those motivated by debunked claims of election fraud that have spread online. U.S. Capitol Police documented 9,600 threats in 2021 alone.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/2022-elections-threat-dhs-bulletin/
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Ben Collins @oneunderscore__ | 10:15 AM · Oct 28, 2022:
47-year-old racecar driver. Sole heir to the Vanderbilt fortune. Senior reporter, dystopia beat, @NBCNews.

https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1585998711754477569

By now, you've seen some of these "tailgate parties," where Trump supporters hang around ballot drop boxes standing watch for "mules," some in tactical gear.

My colleague @vaughnhillyard and I spent the week finding out the origin of this plan.

We found it. It was Truth Social...

These "drop box tailgate parties" took off earlier this month when a Truth Social influencer named Trumper Mel tweeted a picture of a man dropping off a single ballot at a Mesa, Az. drop box. Trump "retruthed" it.

But "mule parties" were in the works on Truth Social for months...
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Fresh from the Pelosi crime scene, Trump draws his followers' attention to a NY judge, Arthur Engoron:

Bill Grueskin @BGrueskin | 1:52 PM · Oct 28, 2022:
Journalist, professor. Started a weekly paper on Standing Rock, then wound up at Miami Herald, WSJ, Columbia. Still unburying ledes, just one tweet at a time.

Perhaps Trump isn't trying to harm this judge. But he's certainly making it more likely.

(Also, NY Supreme Court judges are elected, not appointed, but that's for another day.)

Trump "truth"
https://twitter.com/BGrueskin/status/1586053202080075776/photo/1

It was displayed on outside of stadium at UF/UGA game in Jacksonville earlier tonight and now on outside of other Jacksonville buildings like this one.

0:09 ( https://twitter.com/DWUhlfelderLaw/status/1586560944892780553 )
From sophie

- Daniel Uhlfelder @DWUhlfelderLawn | 11:29 PM · Oct 29, 2022
https://twitter.com/DWUhlfelderLaw/status/1586560944892780553

Experts fear rising global ‘incel’ culture could provoke terrorism (Guardian)

Almost 1,000 references to misogyny and violent action are recorded each day on dedicated incel forums... an increasing overlap between incel followers and the far right...

“I want you to watch Nancy Pelosi hand me that gavel…It’ll be hard not to hit her with it…”
— Kevin McCarthy, July 31, 2021

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/just-in-feds-file-charges-against-david-depape-say-h...

JUST IN: Feds File Charges Against David DePape, Say He Planned to Question Nancy Pelosi and ‘Break Her Kneecaps’

DEPAPE stated that he was going to hold Nancy hostage and talk to her. If Nancy were to tell DEPAPE the “truth,” he would let her go, and if she “lied,” he was going to break “her kneecaps.” DEPAPE was certain that Nancy would not have told the “truth.” In the course of the interview, DEPAPE articulated he viewed Nancy as the “leader of the pack” of lies told by the Democratic Party. DEPAPE also later explained that by breaking Nancy’s kneecaps, she would then have to be wheeled into Congress, which would show other Members of Congress there were consequences to actions. DEPAPE also explained generally that he wanted to use Nancy to lure another individual to DEPAPE.

BBC News - The UK terror survivors tracked down by ‘disaster trolls’

Conspiracy theorists, who claim UK terror attacks have been staged, are tracking down survivors to their homes and workplaces to see if they are lying about their injuries, a BBC investigation has found...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63412651

What we know so far about the man who attacked Nancy Pelosi’s husband (Guardian)

spread far-right conspiracy theories... convicted last year of various criminal charges, including stalking and attempted child abduction... maintained a Facebook account containing multiple conspiracy-laden posts... The account, which was taken down by Facebook’s owner Meta on Friday, included links to videos produced by the My Pillow CEO, Mike Lindell, which falsely claimed that the 2020 presidential election was stolen from Republican incumbent Donald Trump in favor of his Democratic rival Joe Biden. Other posts mentioned videos falsely proclaiming that the congressional committee investigating the US Capitol attack staged by Trump supporters on January 6 had collapsed, and another was titled: “Global Elites Plan To Take Control Of YOUR Money! (Revealed)”... he regularly posted rants concerning the “ruling class”. The blog also had a banner reading “Weclome {sic} to Big Brothers Censorship Hell” above numerous posts rambling about government, media, tech and alien conspiracies, among other topics... using biblical justification to do harm...

The Washington Examiner thought the most interesting question was whether or not Depape was an illegal immigrant; apparently it's possible he was a Canadian who overstayed a visa, or so they claim.

Britain had a far-right terrorist attack a week ago. Why the failure to call it by its true name? (Guardian)

Counter-terrorism police have finally concluded that a firebomb attack on a migrant centre last week was terrorism motivated by the far right. But you’d never have guessed it from this past week. There haven’t been column inches from counter-terrorism ideologues laying out the drivers of this terrorist attack, nor has there been round-the-clock media coverage of the community where the perpetrator is from, asking why they hate so much. Most national newspapers didn’t give the attack front-page prominence the next day. The day after the attack, the home secretary appeared to go out of her way to say that the attack was not being treated as terrorism. This is despite the fact that the perpetrator had tweeted that he planned to “obliterate Muslim children” an hour before his attack. He referenced the far-right Islamophobe Tommy Robinson, repeatedly wrote about Muslim “grooming gangs” and shared content from far-right Islamophobic groups including Act for America. Is it possible that the comparatively muted reaction to this despicable act of terror is because the perpetrator was not “foreign”, but instead a Briton hating immigration: a cause much of the rightwing media and our government stand behind?...

US is failing to address ‘persistent and lethal threat’ of domestic terrorism, report finds (Guardian)

Federal government has continued to focus ‘disproportionately’ on international terrorist threats despite spate of racist shootings...

Alejandra Caraballo @Esqueer_ | 9:52 PM · Dec 3, 2022:
...Clinical Instructor, Harvard Law Cyberlaw Clinic...

These are the people who showed up outside of a drag show in Columbus, Ohio and caused it to be canceled. This is terrorism. Where is the DoJ? This is a clear violation of civil rights by neo-nazi orgs.
Photo ( https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1599235284671295488/photo/1 )

Alejandra Caraballo @Esqueer_ | 10:11 PM · Dec 3, 2022:
Patriot front and proud boys were there as well.
Quote Tweet
Brendan Gutenschwager @BGOnTheScene
Patriot Front has just arrived outside the cancelled drag storytime event in Columbus, Ohio
0:36 ( https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1599239832110497792 )

Social Justice Druid @JoeAuerbach | 10:20 PM · Dec 3, 2022:
Fun fact, the local cops refused to protect the event. They were seen all over chatting it up with their paps the terrorists. As shown.
Photo ( https://twitter.com/JoeAuerbach/status/1599242096782606336/photo/1 )

Mainstream media not quite saying this but people on Twitter say vandalism was directed at a drag show(?), e.g., https://twitter.com/TheSGTJoker/status/1599418124356710400

Over 35k without power in Moore County {NC} due to 'intentional vandalism, sheriff says
WCNC | Dec 4, 2022
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5ffQwH2ptk

>19 margd: Some of these knuckleheads instead of body armor maybe should be wearing chastity belts.

This past February {2022}, 3 white supremacists plead guilty to a plot to "attack (power) substations, or power grids, with powerful rifles" as an accelerationist plot to bring about a race war.

18 USC 1366 makes it a federal crime to damage an energy facility.

https://justice.gov/opa/pr/three-men-plead-guilty-conspiring-provide-material-su...

Text excerpt ( https://twitter.com/petestrzok/status/1599899578609725442/photo/1 )

- @PeteStrzok@mastodon.social @petestrzok | 5:52 PM · Dec 5, 2022
26 year FBI and Army veteran. {Fired by Trump day before pension-eligible.} Georgetown School of Foreign Service adjunct professor and alum. NYT/WP bestseller: Compromised

>21 margd: Rachel Maddow referenced the February case last evening, as well as one from 2013 in California, in her report on the North Carolina crime.
I’m so puzzled as to why these nuts think it will spark a race war.

Germany arrests 25 accused of plotting coup (BBC)

Twenty-five people have been arrested in raids across Germany on suspicion of plotting to overthrow the government. The group of far-right and ex-military figures are said to have prepared for a "Day X" to storm the Reichstag parliament building and seize power...

>23 John5918: Part of their delusion confuses me; it shows up in those who claim to be citizens of an existing Soviet Union as well as in a less-direct sense sovereign citizens as well. Rule is by the consent of the governed, and while the relation of that to reality is complex, it's more real than the reality of a government that fell decades ago and is not recognized by the vast majority of the people it supposedly represents.

Coup attempts in Germany and the US confirm it: the key terror threat is the far right (Guardian)

The danger of violent jihadism persists, but the growing menace is from racist extremists – even if some in the UK government can’t admit it...

Secret Service Members Found To Be Part of Far-Right Extremist Group—Report

https://www.newsweek.com/secret-service-members-found-part-far-right-extremist-g...

A leaked membership list reportedly shows that seven Oath Keepers said they worked or previously worked for the Secret Service, according to files dating from 2009 to 2015.

The membership list was obtained as part of a leak of Oath Keeper documents, according to OCCRP, and were provided by "a former member of the group's inner circle" who requested anonymity because of ongoing federal investigations.
...
More than 300 members of the Oath Keepers identified themselves as current or former employees of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) or affiliated agencies in the documents seen by POGO and OCCRP.
....
"The absolute, most important function for this agency is our no-fail mission to safeguard the continuity of the American government," Anthony Guglielmi, Secret Service chief of communications, told Newsweek in a statement on Tuesday morning.

"We have strongly supported recent investigations and prosecutions of alleged insurrectionists including providing testimony on behalf of the government and providing supporting information and evidence to prosecutors to build the strongest cases against defendants.

"While the Secret Service had no prior knowledge of this information, we are unable to corroborate it at this time but it will be reviewed," he said.
____________________________

Major internal intelligence failure

>25 John5918: The Reichstag has a history of being stormed....JMJ....

>25 John5918: Sharia Law is the result of jihad ism, 24 young Iranians risk being hung on construction cranes, this is intimidation by capitol means. Dissenting doctors, rap artists, soccer player and a couple of dozen people arrested in the current uprising for freedom in Iran are facing this barbaric execution unless a tough international stance is adopted, instead of lip service from Washington (dirty oil is more important) and silence from Rome, meanwhile Mah Movsen Shekari and Majidrega Rahnavard both 23 are left hanging 60 feet above a main throughfare To sensitive to show on American news outlets. What are these people dying for, one is a women's right to not be brutalized by thugs masquerading in clerical garb....JMJ....

>28 brone: Sharia Law is the result of jihad ism

No. Sharia law is basically another word for Islamic law, and ranges all over the place, often independently of jihadism. Iran is not a country that has pushed jihadism openly, but is very big on their version of Islamic law.

Dissenting doctors, rap artists, soccer player and a couple of dozen people arrested in the current uprising for freedom in Iran are facing this barbaric execution unless a tough international stance is adopted,

You mean the country that invaded the US embassy and held diplomats hostage? That was a while ago, but Iran is a country that has stood against the international stance almost proudly.

Iranian version of radical islamist ideology, standing against the international silence of murdering their own people is what they are proud of. This Iranian law allows for the execution of girls as young as 9, and boys as young as 13, they morbidly discriminate against women even in their death chambers. This year alone over 500 have been executed, some publicly, confessions are ellicited through torture and due process is a joke. The no. 1 crime punishable by death is "waging war against god"under this umbrella these murderers execute their opponents. Some American news outlets (very few) are reporting 18,000 have been arrested since September....JMJ....

>30 brone: standing against the international silence of murdering their own people is what they are proud of.

More than half the world's nations have completely banned the death penalty. Most of the rest have practically done so. Less than 20 have used it recently; the US is one of those. Perhaps we should lead by example.

There's a lot of things I could say about Iran, but I don't see how the US meddling is going to help.

>30 brone: Sounds a lot like Texas, honestly.

What’s really the big difference between the murderous predilections of the Iranian rulers as opposed to the murdering predilections of the Saudi rulers? Not much as far as I can tell. I see the big difference as far as how the US government looks at it (and from one administration to the next) is that one is seen as an ally and the other as an adversary.

>32 kiparsky: 78 year old Carl Buntion was executed by lethal injection in April one of 5 executed in Texas this year. Buntion shot a police officer in the face during a routine traffic stop, shooting him twice more in the back as he lay dead or dying, before he was arrested he tried to kill two other people, hijacked a car, and held another hostage at gunpoint this happened in 1990. He was executed last April 2022. Stephen Barbee murdered his pregnant girlfriend and her 7 year old child by strangulation Barbee was quoted as saying the reason for his actions were that he didn't want his wife to find out about his affair,that was 17 years ago. He was executed in November 2022. In Iran two corpses are seen strung up on a construction crane, Mah Movsen Shekari and Majidrega Rahnaverd are 23years old committed the crime of protesting the teatment of muslim women, and hating god....JMJ....

>31 prosfilaes: Don't worry about this regime meddling in Iranian affairs we have sold our souls for their dirty oil. However individuals can protest this barbaric behavior albeit with some fear of censorship. And the pope in Rome can speak out but does not want to offend the muslim world....JMJ....

>35 brone: Don't worry about this regime meddling in Iranian affairs we have sold our souls for their dirty oil.

Whatever you mean by that. Middle Eastern oil isn't exactly morally clean, and all of it is bad for the environment.

If you're talking about the nuclear deal, Trump undercut the moderates in the Iranian government by pulling out of the deal. He empowered people in the Iranian government who hated the idea of dealing with the US and thought that Iran should ignore anything the West wants, the people who are willing to beat down as many people as they want to enforce their view of God's will.

There's a reason it's carrot and stick, not stick and stick; the more the US condemns Iran and Iran condemns the US and they refuse to deal with each other, the less they're motivated to try and listen to each other or work together on anything.

However individuals can protest this barbaric behavior albeit with some fear of censorship.

Aw, brave you. It's easy to bash people half way across the world and describe them as barbarians; it's not so easy to critically analyze your own society and reject its own injustices, even if it has vastly more hope of actually having a positive effect.

>33 lriley: What’s really the big difference between the murderous predilections of the Iranian rulers as opposed to the murdering predilections of the Saudi rulers? Not much as far as I can tell.

Iran looks to me to have much more possibility to reform. They are a lot more democratic at certain levels, and they could go the British route and sideline the autocrats peacefully. Saudi Arabia is an autocratic monarchy, and I'm afraid that any regime change there would be rocky and could be very messy.

>37 prosfilaes: Loads of young Iranians want to democratize their country. The rulers maintain power by force with their police and army. One can hope that eventually those young Iranians will take their country away from them. It's really not a whole lot different situation than when the Shah ruled in Iran. He wasn't popular. His secret police and army kept him in power. Those in power now IMO are just a religious version. They're not popular though. They just control the levers of repression. I would much rather our supporting of a democratic movement to replace Iran's rulers than all the saber rattling we've done the last 40 years.

>34 brone: Sorry, but when I see states where women do not own their own bodies because religious fanatics would rather see them dead than living free lives as full citizens in a democratic republic, they sort of run together in my mind. I'm sort of prejudiced that way, I guess. I should work on that.

So what exactly is the distinction you're trying to highlight? If I'm following you, it's that Texas takes too long to kill people and you think they should be more like Iran, is that what you're getting at?

>38 lriley: Loads of young Iranians want to democratize their country.

My point was that they don't need a full revolution. Iran is far from truly democratic, but has democratic institutions and power sharing. They can change the system from the inside which generally makes for more stable and longer lasting governments.

>40 prosfilaes: my thing is that a change happens from within. I don’t mind us helping that change to happen from a distance. I don’t think our past bellicosity is productive at all nor the idea of us or the Israelis dropping bombs on them or the Saudis contracting our armed forces as MBS tried to pull off when Trump was president.

In any case it doesn’t do anyone any good to have pariah states. Just want to change a regime that the majority of the population doesn’t want. Hopefully then Iran can become a democratic state. Not a lot of them in the region.

>39 kiparsky: Your portrayal of freedom as you mysteriously put it, betrays the openness to truth and goodness,If I am correctly reading in between your lines. The real fanatics are those who prefer evil and raise it to a status of a divinity that creates what is good or evil....JMJ....

>36 prosfilaes: I simply was objecting to the hanging of its citizens on construction equipment and the muted silence from the so called free world. As far as brave goes you're right it is easy for me sitting here complaining about barbarism. Yet I wonder on this little platform at least an opportunity exists to help make it possible to effectively help in ensuring that the cruel treatment of women and girls in Iran and other Islamist states are at least spoken of and condemned. My "brave" comment is not bashing it is a re-affirmation of the dignity which every person has a right to and is the foundation for brotherhood among all people....JMJ....you're right oil is dirty.

>42 brone: Yes, I suppose I'd say I'm open to truth and goodness, though those are pretty squishy concepts and it's possible that we don't entirely agree on what they comprise.

I also agree that raising evil to the status of a divinity sounds pretty awful, and clearly has some dire consequences. For example, the false doctrine which claims that women's fertility is the property of some conjoined church/state axis is not sustainable unless we accept the implicit premise that all bodies are the property of the state which enforces these religious dictates. If we accept this, then much evil follows.

That phrase, "raising evil to the status of divinity", by the way, is a very apt characterization of the rise of the so-called "pro-life" concept, and nicely illustrates the willingness of churches to be used by political forces in order to preserve their own power.

These views of yours seem acceptable these days, such as equating Pro-life with evil. They also seem to be held in majority at least here in LT. The views expressed here are current therefore convenient, this convenience comes from the fact that they always involve some degree of skeptisim ultimately inherited from an atheist Philosopher, Hume being at the head. So why you might ask why I a Catholic Catechist would bother with all this. We the west are currently experiencing a great uprising against our religious beliefs. Judging by the flurry of anti christian activity on the internet and on the streets. We believe in a principle it is small in size but huge in consequence, that is the Principle of Causality "That is What begins to be has a cause"....AMDG....

>46 brone: These views of yours seem acceptable these days, such as equating Pro-life with evil.

The modern concept of pro-life has always been a very divisive concept from its beginning, which really is around 1970. Abortifacients were used probably before we first found writing, and are well documented in the writings of Church leaders; the early church believed that ensoulment occurred at quickening, not conception.

The views expressed here are current therefore convenient, this convenience comes from the fact that they always involve some degree of skeptisim ultimately inherited from an atheist Philosopher, Hume being at the head.

We could spend a lot of time arguing about this, but it's ultimately irrelevant, merely a thrust to avoid actually discussing the views.

We the west are currently experiencing a great uprising against our religious beliefs. Judging by the flurry of anti christian activity on the internet and on the streets.

I can't say you're convincing me to see your view more favorably. To be honest, nobody cares what you believe; they care that you're trying to conform our laws to your beliefs. You don't want to join the Jews, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, and many other religious groups that have, at least in their US sects, agreed to accept that they are a small group in a society dominated by another religion, and that they need to argue for plurality and individual rights, not that the whole system should conform to their whim.

We believe in a principle it is small in size but huge in consequence, that is the Principle of Causality "That is What begins to be has a cause"

Huh? Is this "if the universe has a beginning, it must have a creator" chestnut? In any case, I've got a couple personal origin stories; would you prefer our universe to be the creation of a scientist trying to impress a potential mate, or a wall display in Ikea (for suitably cosmic versions of "wall" and "Ikea") with life on Earth being part of the variation due to the "natural processes" used to create the display? "A creator" does not imply morality, or souls, or even that that creator knows about us.

There isn't any doubt the the majority of the United States population wanted women to have access to abortion. That a minority of Catholics and Evangelicals and six out of 9 Catholic Supreme Court justices have tried to take away that access and succeeded at least in some of our states. Should the minority force their religious views on the majority of population who don't share those views? Brone seems to think that's okay.

To be clear the United States is not a Christian nation and never has been. Sure there are a lot of Christians but there's also a lot of differentiation in their opinions. There are also a number of other religions and many of no particular religious faith or no faith at all and all those people should be forced to kowtow to the beliefs (which are only truths to those who think faith in beliefs make them truths) of a minority. Your beliefs are not everyone's truths something that so many Christians refuse to get their heads around.

If anyone here thinks the 2022 elections didn't go the way they wanted and expected them to they can blame those 6 Supreme Court justices. It created a backlash that could possibly carry on into 2024 and 2026.

>46 brone: I don't use the term "pro-life", since it seems hypocritical to use that term in a context that clearly privileges some lives over others, and with reference to a movement that has celebrated the use of murder to achieve its ends.

That being said, I stand by my claim that any doctrine which claims that a women's body is the property of someone other than the woman in question is simply and straightforwardly evil. Do you disagree?

We the west are currently experiencing a great uprising against our religious beliefs.

I disagree. Your religious beliefs are your own, and you are free to hold them. I know of no place in "the west" where your religious beliefs are threatened.

There is a great uprising against the idea that your religious beliefs should bind the actions or the conscience of those who don't hold those beliefs, but that's a completely different question. Do you feel that your religious beliefs should bind the actions of others? If so, are you wiling to be bound by the beliefs of others?

Your're beliefs are not everone's truths", "Brone seems to think", "nobody cares what you believe". I think in scientific terms, youse guys are reading whats not there between my lines. I read whats actually in your lines which are basicaly Philosopies of science or scientism not the same thing as science a sort of faith in philosophies that you have inherited from long ago an alternative to Divine Revelation pretending to be an advocate of reason against faith which you see as foolish. People imbued with this spirit of scientism are skeptics about anything that trancends direct observation. This combination of philosophies of science and scientism results in a sort of schizophrenia which would be surpising if it were not so common....JMJ....PS dont youse guys feel bad about handing it to me I got censored and told to leave "the Tradional catholic" group for these very ideas....AMDG....

>50 brone:
"People imbued with this spirit of scientism are skeptics about anything that trancends direct observation."
Who are you referring to here? I don't know anyone who expects to directly observe an electron. Yet, there's pretty good evidence electrons exist. I do know many people who are skeptical about supposed supernatural phenomena. That isn't "scientism".

>50 brone: "nobody cares what you believe". I think in scientific terms, youse guys are reading whats not there between my lines. I read whats actually in your lines which are basicaly Philosopies of science or scientism

Again, you choose to interpret what we say instead of responding to it. You're not listening to us.

We the west are currently experiencing a great uprising against our religious beliefs.

nobody cares what you believe

You quoted that, but you didn't pay attention to it, despite several of us saying the same things. There is no uprising against you believing what you want; it's against you compelling us to follow your beliefs. That's not scientism; nobody who disagrees with you want your beliefs to control them, and most non-Christian Americans, of whatever beliefs, have agreed to religious pluralism.

People imbued with this spirit of scientism are skeptics about anything that trancends direct observation.

On 21 September 1995, statues of Ganesha world-round started drinking milk -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha_drinking_milk_miracle . I suspect you're more skeptical of that than I am; I'm at least a little skeptical of the facile scientific explanation. Many people who toss out "scientism" aren't really less skeptical, instead just choosing to privilege their own beliefs.

In any case, I don't know the exact religious beliefs of the people responding to you, and many Christians, Jews, pagans, and other religious people share many of the same beliefs. Again, you chose to define a box for us and shove us and our arguments into it, instead of replying to our arguments.

Gretchen Whitmer kidnap ringleader, Adam Fox, sentenced to 16 years (BBC)

The ringleader of a plot to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer has been sentenced to 16 years in prison... Earlier this year he was found guilty of planning to abduct Ms Whitmer from her holiday home with other militiamen... As well as conspiring to abduct Ms Whitmer, Fox was sentenced for planning to use a weapon of mass destruction to blow up a bridge after the kidnapping, to make it easier to escape. Fox and his co-defendant Barry Croft Jr, 47, were found guilty by a federal court in August. Croft, who is also a member of the Three Percenters militia group, is due to be sentenced on Wednesday. In August, a jury determined that the two men were guilty of conspiring to obtain weapons of mass destruction - a bomb - to blow up a bridge in order to thwart a police response to the planned kidnapping. Croft, a native of Delaware, was also convicted on a separate explosives charge...

>53 John5918: John Roth was arrested for the attempted murder of Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, out side his home a 1am, Roth upset at recent rulings, decided to take a cab to the judges' house with him were a loaded glock 17, a tactical knive, crowbar, pepper spray, ductape, zipties, and screwdriver. this was reported the next day on page A20 of the NYTimes....JMJ....

Interesting how nothing counted as a WMD when their beloved Saddam was buying it from France and Russia... but when it comes to prosecute a patriot a few bags of fertiliser count...

Takes some mental gymnastics... well maybe gymastics is not the right word.

>55 Kuiperdolin: Takes some mental gymnastics

Yeah, it takes a lot of mental gymnastics, to jump from Reagan letting Iran and Iraq blow each other up, to implying that somehow that means that someone with explosives (no evidence of ammonium nitrate*) and plans to blow up a bridge should be let go because he's "our kind of guy". Ignoring the actions of so-called patriots and cracking down on people whose opinions you don't like is called corruption, and it's a root cause behind many revolutions.

* Seriously? A few bags of fertilizer, as if a substance that has killed 500 people in accidental explosions in just the last 20 years, and was used in the largest non-nuclear man-made explosion ever (Minor Scale) is no big deal?

>55 Kuiperdolin: So, just wondering... is there a principal here, or is this purely ad hoc? Do you consider that forming a plan to to kidnap and possibly murder a sitting governor, and to go to war with the legitimate forces of local, state, and national law enforcement, and acting on that plan, to be "patriotism" in all cases, or just in some? And if the latter, when does it count as patriotism for you?

And, not to put too fine a point on it - the voices that are telling you these things, are they the sort of voices that other people can here, or they just for you?

(((Tendar))) @Tendar | 3:29 PM · Jan 8, 2023:
Tyrants are my enemies | Si vis pacem para bellum |🇩🇪| Das Böse triumphiert allein dadurch, dass gute Menschen nichts unternehmen | Military and War News

The attacks in the Brazilian parliament not only remind me of January 6 in the USA but also the attempted storm on the German parliament 2 years ago. And it is always the same circle of people. Right-wing/Anti-Vaxx/Pro-Russian...

1:06 ( https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1612184666303524865 )

And Anti Communist....AMDG....

……but also a pal of KGB LT. Col. Vladimir Putin. Go figure.

>59 brone: Groups that are loudly anti-communist do have a history of being anti-democracy, overthrowing left-wing democracies and installing autocracies.

Is anyone actually pro-communist these days? While there's a vibrant and diverse collection of movements exploring and advocating for socialism, it seems that communism died with the USSR, and I don't see any serious movements looking to bring it back.

Unless I'm mistaken, anyone calling themselves "anticommunist" in 2023 is at best irrelevant and more likely making intentional use of an age-old dog-whistle for some reasons they're not willing to divulge.

>62 kiparsky:

No, communism didn't "die with the USSR", which--as you should probably know--conceptualized its system as a socialist one, in a stage toward communism. (True for all the so-called "communist" countries.) The USSR died, but it was neither the first, the only, nor the last essay in communism. As long as class inequality exists--and the capitalists by definition need it to exist--so long will live the idea of communism. France in 2023 has a viable communist party, led by a Gen Xer. It's a minor party--but it survived all this time and is actually registering increase in membership.

And I think we know the issue is a red herring anyway--not only is the question of difference at best moot and academic, those who curse communism hardly think much better of socialism.

Marx and Engels were not Lenin and Stalin and for that matter neither were Lenin contemporaries Liebknicht, Luxembourg, Connelly or MacLean. Still socialism and communism gets seen through this prism of Stalin, Lenin and Mao in the United States. At the same time there is this refusal to look at any number of our allies and former allies who were 'capitalist' dictators and South and Central America would be great places to start for that or even our interference in governments in the Muslim world of the Mideast and North Africa. There has been dirt in our politics and our geoglobalism forever and Britain is the same.

The U.S. experiment of government pretty much happens because of its distance from Europe-----still what the so called founders set in place was an electoral system of exclusion not inclusion. That Benjamin Franklin says 'we have a republic if we can hold on to it' is constantly being prattled and stirs the hearts of all kinds of deadheads. What he's talking about is a government of white male landowners--or the wealthy deciding how those without land or wealth or who aren't the right gender or race will live. So let's throw out the pledge of allegiance as nothing but garbage with it's 'too the republic' and 'one nation under god' (which was added in 1954 by what amounts to today as a christian nationalist). A democracy that includes includes everyone of all races, religious of whatever kind (even Lucien Graves Satanic church) and non religious, all genders and gender choices is certainly better. What I wonder is how you build a better society if you have no intention of including everyone who lives in that society in it as equals? And equality also means economic equality. Sounds socialist? Yeah it does.

As for Europe in the 19th and well into the 20th century--the time that spawned thinkers like Marx and Engels and plenty of others (who more often than not when they met up were at odds end with each other) democracy or anything like it didn't really exist. These are older countries steeped much deeper in history and culture than North American countries (discounting Native American history and culture anyway but they have been so marginalized within our society because of greed more than anything else) but they are newer democracies. They had Kings and Queens like the Romanovs, the German Kaiser's, the Hapsburgs and Napoleon the third. They had the power and it was endowed to them and their offspring by god (or so they'd say) and there was no getting them out of power no matter how cruel and despotic they were. Someone like Marx is thinking about how do we build a just and fair society without these parasites. Some people had to.

Chelsea Manning wannabees?

ULTIMATE BETRAYAL: Active-duty Marines arrested for Capitol riot had high clearance levels
Stephanie Bazzle | 21 Jan 2023

...The arrests of Micah Coomer, Joshua Abate, and Dodge Dale Hellonen were facilitated by Coomer’s social media posts, boasting that he was “proud to be apart {sic} of history” and showing photos of himself inside the Capitol.

...Among other things, Coomer discussed in his Instagram messages his desire for “Civil War 2” and declared that “everything in this country is corrupt,” declaring the need for a new start.

He also claimed to have evidence of voter fraud, citing a friend who obtained a ballot for his dead cat, though, as seen in recent cases, safeguards are in place to catch fraudulent ballots when submitted.

...Military.com reports:

“{A}ll three men have been enlisted in the Marines for more than four years, with Hellonen, who enlisted in August 2017, being the most senior. On paper, the three Marines hold demanding jobs tied to the intelligence community, are stationed at major commands, and have personal commendations and awards to their name.”

...Their charges at this time are knowingly entering a restricted building, disorderly conduct (2 counts), and parading or picketing inside the U.S. Capitol.

...However, their access to intelligence information combined with their apparent willingness to join an attack on the U.S. Government is a bad combination, and if they are found guilty, the military could add its own consequences atop those imposed by the court...

https://washingtonpress.com/2023/01/20/ultimate-betrayal-active-duty-marines-arr...

Alec Baldwin, anti gun, anti Trump, anti America, and anti daughter ck out his recorded rage againt her as a child anyway this darling of Hollywood makes a low budget (dirt cheap) movie with guns, with live ammunition (shooting at bottles and into the sky). He is in charge of all this choas, scene one take one, his no experience amourer hands him a gun he aims it at an actress shoots her though the stomach and I believe wounds someone else. When asked the question what happened? Alec does not give the answer everyone else gives, (I didn't know it was loaded) Alec gives the idiotic answer, I didn't pull the trigger. Now Alec has been running around the country to various pity parties even making money commercialy. Now the two tiered legal system we have now will probably charge him with Man (sorry person) slaughter, how much you want to bet ole Alec will get a slap on the wrist....JMJ....

"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?"
- DJT

>66 brone: he aims it at an actress shoots her though the stomach

False, which makes me uninterested in looking up the rest of the things you claimed. If truth is important, then act like it.

anti America

Whatever you mean by that. You professed to holding a belief against the First Amendment, that a church largely disliked by the Founding Fathers and early Americans should be made the official church. "Anti America" means even less coming from you than the average right winger.

the two tiered legal system we have now

Now? I might give argument about two tiered versus a far more complex system, but this seems to be universal; he who had the money wins, and he who the judge and jury like get away with stuff the outsider could never get away with. A lot of changes, but the basic unfairness has stayed the same.

>63 LolaWalser: No, communism didn't "die with the USSR"

Meh. Metaphorically speaking, it did; it moved from an actual powerful, funded competitor to a has-been.

conceptualized its system as a socialist one, in a stage toward communism.

In English, communism generally means the system that the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and Chinese Communist Party (at least originally) set up in their countries. It's complex, but they don't get judged on their dreams, they get judged on their realities.

As long as class inequality exists--and the capitalists by definition need it to exist--so long will live the idea of communism.

Monarchy and philosopher-kings have their advocates as well. But I look at communist states in action, and see class inequality, at times rearranged by mass death, like Mao's Cultural Revolution or Pol Pot's genocide, but usually reorganizing themselves into a structure with class inequality, often with the peasants being praised in theory and crushed in practice, just like often in capitalism.

Kenneth Quinn wrote "What emerges as the explanation for the terror and violence that swept Cambodia during the 1970s is that a small group of alienated intellectuals, enraged by their perception of a totally corrupt society and imbued with a Maoist plan to create a pure socialist order in the shortest possible time, recruited extremely young, poor, and envious cadres, instructed them in harsh and brutal methods learned from Stalinist mentors, and used them to destroy physically the cultural underpinnings of the Khmer civilization and to impose a new society through purges, executions, and violence." The 21st century's full retrospective on the Soviet Union, Maoist China and the Khmer Rouge tends to diminish desire for communism.

France in 2023 has a viable communist party, led by a Gen Xer. It's a minor party--but it survived all this time and is actually registering increase in membership.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parti_communiste_fran%C3%A7ais says that it got 6.9% in the 2012 legislative election, 2.7% in 2017 and 2.3% in 2022. The Italian Communist Party received 34.4% of the vote in 1976, but dissolved in 1991, and the modern Italian Communist Party is getting less than 1%. Communist parties exist, but in most parts of the world they're pretty minor; outside the one party states, Nepal, Peru, Uruguay, and Cyprus seem to have the only parties that hit 20% of the seats of their legislature.

And I think we know the issue is a red herring anyway--not only is the question of difference at best moot and academic, those who curse communism hardly think much better of socialism.

One of my bête noires is the way that socialism is Venezuela and Soviet Union when the Republicans want to demonize it (Reason magazine had an article dismissing the Nordic nations as not being socialist) but when we ask for the slightest step towards what Europe has, that's socialism. So the difference matters; it's making clear that you can oppose communism systems and support systems that are closer to the rest of the developed world.

Russian agents suspected of directing far-right group to mail bombs in Spain – NYT
2023/01/23 - 11:08

US and EU officials believe that Russian military intelligence officers directed associates of a white supremacist militant group based in Russia to carry out a recent letter bomb campaign in Spain whose most prominent targets were the Ukrainian and American embassies, the Spanish prime and defense ministers, according to The New York Times referring to US officials....

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/01/23/russian-agents-suspected-of-directing-far...
---------------------------------------------

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/us/politics/russia-spain-letter-bombs.html

>67 margd: You could stand in the middle of times Sq and shoot someone now and the DA would have you out in an hour....JMJ....

>68 prosfilaes: How bout he shoots her dead would that be the truth?

" A church largely disliked by the founding fathers and early Americans should be made the official church" if you mean Catholic Church, well the Catholic church's first diocese in Baltimore was established after the Revolution and was hardly a threat to the constitution, Besides Catholics are used to being disliked, but we forgive them and helped them make a pretty good country....JMJ...

>70 margd: So now we have "white supremists" in Russia mailing bombs to the US embassy (an act of war) in Spain, with all these nazis running around the Ukraine and Russia they are drueling over the sophisticated military hardware we are sending them....JMJ....

>71 brone: How does that clearly false statement advance the conversation? George Zimmerman was questioned for five hours after he shot Trayvon Martin, and that was a case where Zimmerman was released without charges. Bail and other pretrial releases are a complex subject with much detailed discussion and varied opinion, and that statement advances it not a bit.

>72 brone: Shoots who dead? Alec Baldwin fatally shot Halyna Hutchins, the cinematographer, dead, not an actress. I've seen no reports that he aimed at her. I really don't see the relevance of the Alec Baldwin stuff at all.

>73 brone: What's your point? The statement is entirely correct; you stand against something that has been one of the core principles of the US since the Constitution, and in a way that most early Americans would have been offended about. What has Alec Baldwin done that has been more anti-America?

Trump's rhetoric years ago about the "China Virus" created an environment that had our usually intrepid friend, originally from Hong Kong and now in his 70s, unnerved for the first time ever. Never thought we'd see THAT!

The private angst over Donald Trump’s racist attacks on Elaine Chao goes public
Meridith McGraw | Wed, January 25, 2023

Over the past several months, the leading Republican presidential candidate has launched a series of racist attacks on the wife of the Republican Party’s Senate leader, a woman who once served in his Cabinet.

But while former President Donald Trump’s taunts at Elaine Chao — demeaning her as “Coco Chow” or a variation of Mitch McConnell’s “China-loving wife” — have been mostly met with silence from fellow GOP officials, the main target of them is now speaking out.

“When I was young, some people deliberately misspelled or mispronounced my name. Asian Americans have worked hard to change that experience for the next generation,” Chao said in a statement to POLITICO. “He doesn't seem to understand that, which says a whole lot more about him than it will ever say about Asian Americans.”

Chao’s statement is an extremely rare case of the former Transportation Secretary wading into the political thicket that her former boss has laid around her since the end of his administration. It suggests that discomfort with Trump’s anti-Asian rhetoric has reached a new level amid several high-profile shootings targeting Asian Americans...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/elaine-chao-responds-donald-trump-194357597.html

UK teenager sentenced over far-right videos that inspired US killers (Guardian)

A teenage extremist who inspired two far-right killers in the US has been ordered to serve 11 and a half years in a young offender institution for publishing a “stream of rightwing terrorist bile”. Daniel Harris, 19, celebrated white supremacist murderers including Anders Breivik and called for an armed uprising in videos posted from his grandfather’s house in Derbyshire. Manchester crown court was told that his material was viewed by two men who went on to commit separate far-right atrocities in the US last year...

A 58 year old woman stands out side the D.C. gulag, every night, protesting the treatment of political prisoners. Mama Mici is the mother of the decorated AF veteran who was shot and killed by a Capital Police "hero". She has held nightly vigils for months, and has endured insults and threats from people like your selfs, who demand her removal from the streets of the Capitol. She has even been arrested for "jaywalking" a horrible crime against our democracy....JMJ....

>78 brone: Sure, gulag. What makes it a gulag, and would you object to the same conditions if they were done to people arrested (but not convicted) of, say, robbery?

We've been over the Capitol shooting before. Back the Blue, except when they shoot a member of a mob breaking into the Capitol threatening to hang Mike Pence, I guess.

>78 brone: I don't think there's anyone here rejoicing at this woman's daughter being shot and killed. That is some serious extrapolation on your part. She was part of a violent mob that injured numbers of police guarding the capitol that day and was threatening the lives of elected officials of both parties starting with Pence and Pelosi. I wonder if you saw the event as it went down.....not just the shooting but what was happening right before that in the hallway which which was right outside the house's chambers. A few security guarding the doors.....the mob reaching around them and knocking out the panes of glass behind those security people. Those people in the mob saw the gun seconds before--they're shouting about it....but they were so enraged (not peaceful at all) they went ahead anyway and unfortunately for that woman's daughter she was the first through the panes of that doorway. If you haven't seen it maybe you should take a look.

Brandon Russell: Leader of neo-Nazi Atomwaffen group charged with Baltimore power grid plot (BBC)

Two people, including the founder of a neo-Nazi group, have been arrested after allegedly plotting to shut down power to the Baltimore area. Brandon Russell, 27, and Sarah Clendaniel, 34, were charged with conspiracy to damage an energy facility. The crime carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison. Authorities say the couple planned to shoot five electricity substations in the state of Maryland. The pair met while both were in prison, and began discussing the alleged plot last year. Ms Clendaniel described their plan as "legendary" and said the attack "would completely destroy the whole city". "This planned attack threatened lives and would have left thousands of Marylanders in the cold and dark," US Attorney Erek Barron said in a statement. Mr Russell is the founder of Atomwaffen Division, a neo-Nazi group which has been linked to several murders, bombings and plots in the United States and other countries. Although relatively small, the group has become known for its extreme violence. Members subscribe to a Neo-Nazi version of "accelerationist" philosophy - the idea that political goals can be achieved only via social collapse. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks extremist groups, Atomwaffen members "believe that the modern, post-industrial society cannot be redeemed. Instead, they believe it ought to be driven into apocalyptic collapse so a white ethnostate or whites-only utopia can be constructed in its wake"...

>81 John5918: The sham group you mentiom the Southern Poverty law center is nothing but an obscenely wealthy marketing group. The far-left group uses its "hate Map" to intimidate aging boomer liberals to funding their scams. Their favorite tactic is to promote the fiction that conservative christians and nazis are in cahoots, meanwhile back at SPLC's hdqrts 24 employees sign a letter acussing its founder hate crimes The usual litany, Bullying, sex harrassement, racial bigotry, its 500million slush fund dwarfs over the NAACP's budget. Their "work" is deeply partisan. Recenty they had to pay Mayid Navaz millions, admit they defamed him and were forced to apologize for the lies spred about him. In another case in a FBI testimony the gunman who shot up the Family Research Council admitted that he was inspired by the SPLC's hate map....AMDG....

The horrible beating suffered by a black man in Memphis at the hands of 5 black policemen. Even so the left is still trying to make this an instance of systemic racism an aurgument that hardly holds water in a city with a black female police chief, you would think that maybe in this case maybe race is not the primary factor that many have tried to make it. Maybe its something deeper and more fundamental. Maybe its loss of morality, of right and wrong....JMJ....

>83 brone: That is exactly what systemic racism means - "something deeper and more fundamental" than blaming each individual attack on a particular attacker's racist views.

You might want to spend a little time learning something about what "systemic racism" means before you try arguing against it. The idea that "it's a loss of morality, of right and wrong" is a little too pat - it doesn't explain anything, and it doesn't line up with what we're seeing. If, as you want to argue, the problem is that All Cops Are Bastards, then surely you'd expect to see a lot more even distribution of police killings. Instead, we see lots of cops, some of them Black, killing lots of Black people - which is exactly what you'd expect to see under the systemic racism theory.

By the way, it's very interesting to see you taking the ACAB line. I would not have expected you to argue that cops in general have no morality or sense of right and wrong. Today, I learned.

>82 brone: Their favorite tactic is to promote the fiction that conservative christians and nazis are in cahoots,

The Catholic Church told the Nazis that the church wouldn't criticize the government's actions if they'd leave the Catholics alone. It's shocking to me; even as an atheist, I tend to subrationally feel that religion should aggressively stand for what's right against a world that deals so much in compromises and self-interest.

The Nazis and religion is complex; the KKK and religion, not as much. The KKK in the 1920s was undeniably for Protestantism and against Catholics and Jews. It's changed some, but virtually all members of the KKK are Christians.

in a FBI testimony the gunman who shot up the Family Research Council admitted that he was inspired by the SPLC's hate map

Huh. So what you're saying is that the FRC weren't oppressing him by preventing him from peacefully demonstrating with weapons in their offices after threatening to kill some of them, and you don't think he's a political prisoner? It's almost like your beliefs about what happened on January 6, 2021, are disconnected from anything else you believe.

It's horrible, and was deplored by the SPLC but the fact that 11 people have been murdered by anti-abortion crusaders doesn't seem to stop you at all.

For another point about the conservative Christians and the groups the SPLC attacks, when George Tiller was assassinated in the middle of a church service, Southern Baptist pastor Wiley Drake said "Would you have rejoiced when Adolf Hitler died during the war? ... I would have said, 'Amen! Praise the Lord! Hallelujah! I'm glad he's dead.' This man, George Tiller, was far greater in his atrocities than Adolf Hitler, so I am happy; I am glad that he is dead."

Over and over, you demonstrate that you're not willing to wrestle with truth.

>83 brone: Maybe its loss of morality, of right and wrong

Yeah, let's go back to the 1920s when there was the Tulsa Race Massacre and one of the most successful black communities in the US was destroyed. Let's go back to the 1950s, when Emmett Till was lynched and a jury let his murderers go free. Or the 1990s, when there was the Rodney King beating.

"Nobody knows right and wrong nowadays", bemoans conservative Christians, who then make a man President who said "And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. ... Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything." They tell us to back the blue, and then complain when an angry mob attacks Congress, threatens to kill the Vice-President and one member of the mob gets shot and killed. We see them contesting the results of a legitimate election, and rewriting history both recent and old to fit what they want to have happened.

(When I was still in high school, I was quite interested in evolution and creationism. When reading books by creationists and evolutionists, I was stunned by the way creationist quotes were like "Gould said 'evolution ... is ... false'" and evolutionist quotes were like "Here's a page from a creationist book" or "The main body of the text has the short quotes from creationists, but the end notes offer the full paragraphs." It's funny how the side bemoaning a loss of right and wrong has no problem lying about what other people said, and I definitely noticed which side cared about truth.)

What was it Menahem Begin said "Goyim kill Goyim and blame it on theJews"....JMJ....

>86 prosfilaes: Here is some facts concerning your 'facts' concerning the Church and the Nazis. Dr Raffael Cantoni, head of the war time Jewish assistance committee stated that "6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis, but there could have been many more victims had it not been for the intervention of Pius Xll. Israel's 2nd PM is quoted as saying," My first duty after the war was to thank Pius Xll and the Catholic Church". At Pius Xll's death an effort to name a forest dedicated to his honor. Golda Meir stated that "when fearful martyrdom came to our people in ten years of Nazi terror, the voice of Pope Pius Xll was raised for the victims." The book many of Pope Pius Xll detractors, Hitler's Pope, has been much maligned and refuted, but like Stalin famously said keep telling the same lie and it becomes the truth. The real truth was that the Power of the Pope, Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin was extraordinarily limited given Hitler's hegemony over the continent. To focus on the alleged inadequacies of those who could not prevent the slaughter and imply the Pope was complicit is pure calumny....JMJ.... PS a good movie if you dare on this subject is "The Scarlett and the Black" with Gregory Peck and Christopher Plumer

>85 prosfilaes: The Catholic Church told the Nazis that the church wouldn't criticize the government's actions if they'd leave the Catholics alone. It's shocking to me; even as an atheist, I tend to subrationally feel that religion should aggressively stand for what's right against a world that deals so much in compromises and self-interest.

>88 brone: Here is some facts concerning your 'facts' concerning the Church and the Nazis.

Except they're not concerning what I was talking about. I wasn't even talking about Pope Pius XII; I was talking about Pope Pius XI, who rushed to sign the first international agreement with the Nazi regime, the Reichskonkordat. It said, among other things,

Article 16: Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of loyalty either to the Reich governor of the state concerned or to the President of the Reich respectively, according to the following formula:

"Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise, as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State of . . . I swear and promise to honour the legally constituted government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honour it. With dutiful concern for the welfare and the interests of the German state, in the performance of the ecclesiastical office entrusted to me, I will endeavour to prevent everything injurious which might threaten it."

I'd be a little more sympathetic if it had been with the previous government, but he was so eager to sign a concordat with Germany that he swore the bishops to honor the Nazi state.

The real truth was that the Power of the Pope, Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin was extraordinarily limited given Hitler's hegemony over the continent.

Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin are neither here nor there.

As I said before, the way I've been taught to respond to the Lord of Evil is "Greetings and defiance, fairest and fallen." Pope Pius XI chose to deal with Hitler to protect the Catholics and to hell with the Samaritans, their neighbors. The spiritual leader of 40% of Germans was not powerless in 1933. Hitler was not prepared to kill half of Germany, and the Protestant Germans wouldn't have stood for it. But instead Pope Pius XI gave Hitler cover.

To quote words the Catholic J. R. R. Tolkien put in the mouth of an angel: "You cannot pass....I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass." I would have expect no less from the Pope versus Hitler.

As the German, Italian and their Eastern European allies forces were collapsing towards the end of the WWII the Pope and numerous of his priests, bishops and cardinals helped set up the ratlines to get Nazis and other Fascists to safe havens all over South America. That is a fact. That Juan Peron amongst others was more than willing to help this to happen is another fact though hardly a surprise. He was a fascist himself. By the way for a long time extreme right wingers didn't have a problem being called fascist. Now it triggers them. Go figure.

Pius Xl signed the concordant with the Weimar republic not the Nazis, 85 years ago Pius Xl wrote encyclical letters condemning both Nazi and Communist regimes The Encyclical (Mit Brenn ender Sorge) was smuggled into Germany, the pope demanding that it be read from the pulpit of every church in Germany. This was done on March 14th Palm Sunday. The letter confronted the power of these dictators, a similar letter 7 years earlier condemned Italian fascism. To the Nazis he is quoted as saying " we condemn the neo pagan and fundamental racist idiocrasy of the Nazis" saying further that only "superficial minds" lock God: "within the narrow limits of a single race."

The fact is 85 years ago Pius Xl wrote Encyclical letters condemning Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia the Germans he called neopagans and condemned their racist ideology. This letter was smuggled into Germany and read from every church in Germany on March 14th, 1937, Palm Sunday. Pius the Xl signed the concordant before Hitler came to power. Pius Xl died before WWll began....JMJ....

>91 brone: Pius Xl signed the concordant with the Weimar republic not the Nazis

>92 brone: Pius the Xl signed the concordant before Hitler came to power.

Why would you make that claim? In any format, it would be but a debating trick; in this one, I can immediately check and refute it. So why?

The Enabling Act starting Nazi Germany was passed March 23, 1933. By July 14, 1933, Hitler had eliminated all other political parties in Germany. The Reichskonkordat was signed July 20, 1933. The Vatican even labels it "Concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich (July 20, 1933)" ( https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/index_concordati-accordi_en... ).

The letter confronted the power of these dictators, a similar letter 7 years earlier condemned Italian fascism.

First he made deals with them. You don't lay down with the Devil and wake up with God. 1937 was too late to make a difference; 1933 may not have been. By April 1933, Hitler was persecuting the Jews; the Nuremberg laws were passed in 1935.

The anti nazi response by the Catholic Church is a matter of record it cannot be denied, did many Catholics collaborate with the Nazis probably most of them did in one way or another in Germany. Alot many thousands of men women and children of the Catholic Faith died in Nazi extermination camps. The bishops of Germany preached against the anti-semitic propaganda in sermons throughout 1933. 2,579 priests were sent to Dachau including 411 from Germany, 1,034 were murdered, 3,000 Polish priests were sent to Auschwitz, 300 were murdered at Sachsenhausen, 780 at Mauthausen, 5,000 priests died at Buchenwald, thousands of Catholic nuns died at these camps is well documented, these murders do not include the many religious murdered in place. Some priests have written about their sufferings, Christ in Dachau by Fr John Lenz, Priest Block 25487 a memoir of Dachau by Fr Jean Bernard, The Ninth Day a film documentary about priests in Dachau. Prisoner # 16670 murdered by the Nazis at Auschwitz, and Edith Stein also murdered....AMDG....

I add professor Yusuki Narita remarks in this thread because it should spark terror in anyone over 50 in Japan, Yuski however is a professor at one of the top five Universities in the US Yale University. referring to the economic burden the aging population of Japan is causing the esteemed professor recommends "seppuku" better known as Hara Kiri self-disembowelment " the honorable method of taking one's life. If not, that solution Canada's solution would be a lot more tolerable these days....AMDG....

>94 brone: Saying that something is "a matter of historical record" does not change the actual historical record.

Why do you waste your time lying about history to people who know what they're talking about?

There are other works on the subject but I would recommend to Brone The Real Odessa by the Argentine Uki Goni if he were interested in reading about the Catholic Cardinals, Bishops and Priests involved in smuggling Nazis and Fascists out of Europe in the waning days of World War II and afterwards. The Pope was hardly blind to it, tacitly approved of it even if he allowed himself some space for deniability. To go further even our OSS/CIA was involved as were other western secret services.

I think brone fails to distinguish between individual behaviour and systemic or organisational dynamics. I don't think anyone would deny that there were many individual Catholics (and other Christians and people of other faiths and none) who courageously and nonviolently opposed Nazism. Maximilian Kolbe, Edith Stein and Hugh O'Flaherty are names which are often remembered, but the Catholic Church has formally canonised or beatified well over 150 bishops, priests, religious sisters and brothers, and laity, many of whom lost their lives, and there are many more. But that doesn't alter the fact that the Catholic Church as an institution and its institutional leadership has to face some serious questions regarding its stance during the Nazi era. As with many things, I suspect the overall truth is not quite as black and white as either side in a polemical debate would like it to be.

>98 John5918: What intrigues me is that brone flips those facts neatly on their heads, claiming that "many Catholics" and even "probably most of them", but then claims that the hierarchy stood in opposition. Literally the opposite of what is known to have happened, as you point out.

What's amazing to me is the sheer gall required for this level of mendacity. I mean, I've been lied to by conservatives before, to the point where I sort of expect it. I think they can't help it. But usually there's a bit of a question about whether they're lying or just ignorant. In this case, you literally couldn't make up this sort of a lie without knowing enough of the truth to know you're lying, and in fact to know that literally anyone reading it would know that it was a lie, and would know that you knew you were lying. There's not even an attempt to pretend to believe any of it, it's just barefaced lie upon lie.

And about what? About a bunch of dead dudes who had a chance to rise to meet a situation honorably, and failed to do so. That's it. Looking at it honestly, you could learn a lot about what they hoped to accomplish and what they did or didn't accomplish, and why they did what they did or failed to do what they ought to have done, and maybe that would be interesting, but what's interesting about telling lies about it?

>99 kiparsky: Looking at it honestly, you could learn a lot about what they hoped to accomplish and what they did or didn't accomplish, and why they did what they did or failed to do what they ought to have done, and maybe that would be interesting

Well put. People made decisions, often flawed decisions, for reasons that rightly or wrongly made sense to them in their own circumstances and time. By studying it honestly, there are lessons to be learned about how we should make decisions today. Whitewashing it, denying it, twisting the truth, is of no value to anyone.

Three men convicted of far-right plot to stab Emmanuel Macron (Guardian)

A French anti-terror court convicted three people on Friday over a plan to attack President Emmanuel Macron after a trial that put the spotlight on a radical far-right online group. The three men, part of a Facebook group known as the Barjols, were convicted for conspiracy to commit a terrorist act after the court heard how they discussed using a ceramic knife to stab Macron in 2018 at a first world war commemoration... Since the start of the trial in mid-January, the court heard details of the group’s alcohol-fuelled meetings and often racist online discussions of migration, their fear of a civil war, and their hatred of Macron...

Elon Musk has put every lost young man on Twitter in the crosshairs of the far right (Guardian)

Letting the expert online recruiters Patriotic Alternative back on the platform isn’t a win for free speech but for fascism... The reinstatements appear to be part of Musk’s commitment to free speech. But if he knew anything at all about PA, he would realise that he has placed a target on the back of every disenfranchised and politically lost young man on Twitter, many of whom are recruited to the far right via the platform. Consider the cases of two young men who recently began lengthy prison sentences for far-right terrorism offences. Daniel Harris, 19, is a far-right extremist now serving 11 years for creating videos that inspired mass shooters in the US. Luca Benincasa, 20, who recently started a nine-year sentence, was a member of the proscribed neo-Nazi group Feuerkrieg Division. Both men should be held to account for their behaviour, but their actions did not happen in a vacuum. They did not hatch from a swastika-stamped egg at 17 years old, determined to wreak havoc on the world. Their actions, and the beliefs that drove them, are the end product of years of indoctrination by online extremists...

RICU brands Orwell's, Huxley's, Conrad's, Chesterton's, Boulle's, Tennyson's, Shakespeare's readers as far-right extremists

More like RICUCK amirite? The thing is, it's true. In a world (and on a website) overtaken by the barbarians, mere literacy is in and of itself reaction.

But of course that's only a reason to be proud to be far-right.

>102 Kuiperdolin: More like RICUCK amirite? ... mere literacy is in and of itself reaction.

Which, of course, you demonstrate by using crude sexual insults instead of literate arguments or further research. It's funny how you make that argument on a website that wears its literacy on its sleeve.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/02/inside-ricu-the-shadowy-propaga...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/can-you-really-be-radicalised-by-great-briti...

So, hey, apparently the Guardian thinks propaganda is fine, but not when it's against something that threatens British citizens. It's unclear what we're looking at; "one list" doesn't mean much, and we're not getting the larger picture.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/just-in-kevin-mccarthy-releases-jan-6-riot-tapes-all...
JUST IN: Kevin McCarthy Releases Jan. 6 Riot Tapes — All 41,000 Hours — to Tucker Carlson

House Speaker Kevin McCarthy has finally released the 41,000 hours of surveillance footage filmed during the Jan. 6 riot at the US Capitol — but not publicly. The top Republican gave the footage to Fox News host Tucker Carlson, according to a new report in Axios.

***
The unfair and unbalanced FOX News network plans to continue its aim to misrepresent. This faux news network and its owner is in cahoots with the GOP just as the released emails indicated last week. There is no need to hide the connection anymore, apparently.

Far right trying to infiltrate UK’s low-traffic protests, campaigners warn (Guardian)

Far-right activists and other extremists are attempting to hijack local issues such as low-traffic schemes by linking them to conspiracy theories, campaigners have warned. It comes after Covid-19 protesters joined thousands demonstrating against Oxford’s Low Traffic Neighbourhoods (LTNs) scheme, one of the most ambitious in the country and the source of long-running local debate. But the anti-racism charity Hope Not Hate (HnH) warns the issue is one that extremists are attempting to portray as the work of an elite cabal, or “New World Order” (NWO), pulling the strings of world events... "On Saturday’s march some people were literally chanting saying things including ‘refugees are rapists’ and ‘jews will not replace us’”...

I find it rather ironic that the right is complaining about "an elite cabal". If there is any loose informal cabal having a disproportionate influence on world events, it is the right wing - capitalists, the owners of major international media, the military-industrial complex, right wing governments, billionaires, etc.

Edited to add: Secret House of Lords circle ‘shown to have worked with far right’ (Guardian)

A secretive organisation accused of collaborating with far-right activists has been operating out of the House of Lords for more than a decade, a cache of leaked documents suggests. The organisation, called the New Issues Group (NIG), includes the former Ukip leader Malcolm Pearson and the Tory former deputy speaker of the House of Lords Baroness Cox. The cache of documents, acquired by anti-fascist group Hope not Hate, even suggests that a figure who would become one of the UK’s most notorious anti-Muslim activists drafted questions to be asked in the House of Lords by group members. Joe Mulhall, research director at Hope not Hate, described the existence of the secretive organisation as “pretty terrifying”. He added: “Our investigation found members of the House of Lords collaborating with far-right Islamophobes”...

All 25 domestic-extremist murders in US / 2022 were committed by rightwing extremists, DOWN from highs of 47-78 per year in 2015-2019--roughly the Trump years!

Murder and Extremism in the United States in 2022 (36 p)
Anti-Defamation League | 22 Feb 2023

Executive Summary
Every year, individuals with ties to different extreme causes and movements kill people in the United States; the ADL Center on Extremism (COE) tracks these murders. Extremists regularly commit murders in the service of their ideology, in the service of a group or gang they may belong to, or even while engaging in traditional, non-ideological criminal activities.

In 2022, domestic extremists killed at least 25 people in the U.S., in 12 separate incidents. This represents a decrease from the 33 extremist-related murders documented in 2021 and is comparable to the 22 extremist-related murders in 2020. It continues the recent trend of fewer extremist-related killings after a five-year span of 47-78 extremist-related murders per year (2015-2019).

The 2022 murder totals would have been much lower if not for two high-casualty extremist-related shooting sprees. Only 10 of the 25 deaths occurred outside of those sprees—and one of those 10 deaths occurred in a less lethal mass shooting attempt.

The issue of extremist-related mass killings is of growing concern and is the subject of a special section of this report. From the 1970s through the 2000s, domestic extremist-related mass killings were relatively uncommon. However, over the past 12 years, their number has greatly increased. Most of these mass killings were committed by right-wing extremists, but left-wing and domestic Islamist extremists were also responsible for incidents. The Center on Extremism has identified 62 extremist-connected mass killing incidents since 1970, with 46 of them being ideologically motivated. Disturbingly, more than half (26, or 57%) of the ideological mass killings have occurred within the past 12 years. Of particular concern in recent years are shootings inspired by white supremacist “accelerationist” propaganda urging such attacks.

In 2022, 18 of the 25 extremist-related murders appear to have been committed in whole or part for ideological motives, while the remaining seven murders either have no clear motive or were committed for a non-ideological motive.

All the extremist-related murders in 2022 were committed by right-wing extremists of various kinds, who typically commit most such killings each year but only occasionally are responsible for all (the last time this occurred was 2012). Left-wing extremists engage in violence ranging from assaults to fire-bombings and arsons, but since the late 1980s have not often targeted people with deadly violence. The same cannot be said for domestic Islamist extremists, but deadly incidents linked to Islamist extremism have decreased significantly in the U.S. over the past five years.

White supremacists commit the greatest number of domestic extremist-related murders in most years, but in 2022 the percentage was unusually high: 21 of the 25 murders were linked to white supremacists. Again, this is primarily due to mass shootings. Only one of the murders was committed by a right-wing anti-government extremist—the lowest number since 2017...

Death and Extremism
Mass Shooting Victims Dominate Extremist Casualties of 2022
Exploring the Numbers
The Perpetrators
Extremist Mass Killings: A Closer Look
Extremist Murders in 2022: The Incidents
Notes on Methodology and Sources
Policy Recommendations
Endnotes

https://www.adl.org/resources/report/murder-and-extremism-united-states-2022

How the US power grid is a target for far-right groups (BBC)

Far-right groups are increasingly talking about attacking the US power grid to cause chaos and advance their cause, terrorism experts say. The warnings come as the founder of a neo-Nazi group and a woman appeared in court on Friday charged with plotting to attack power installations around Baltimore...

Pete Strzok @petestrzok | 6:16 PM · Mar 10, 2023:
26 year FBI and Army veteran. Georgetown School of Foreign Service adjunct professor and alum. NYT/WP bestseller: Compromised

FBI domestic terrorism cases by year, per GAO (and great work by @SeamusHughes ):

2013: 1,981
2014: 1,783
2015: 1,606
2016: 1,535
2017: 1,890
2018: 3,714
2019: 4,092
2020: 5,557
2021: 9,049

Feels like this should be bigger news.

Quote Tweet
Seamus Hughes @SeamusHughes | 5:17 PM · Mar 10, 2023:
Current: @GWUPoE. I read a lot of court records because I like a good story. Won a Pulitzer that one time. “A well-known PACER watcher” - Justice Department

But the number always seemed confusing to me. Because it both never changes and then changes so dramatically. So I dove in. Page 24 of a Government Accountability Office report released last week said that the FBI had 9,049 domestic terrorism cases.

https://gao.gov/assets/gao-23-104720.pdf
Table ( https://twitter.com/SeamusHughes/status/1634317460286369793/photo/1 )

US conservatives love to warn of creeping fascism. Do they understand what it is? (Guardian)

This fine youth was starting out on what most would consider an enviable life, free as precious few of his fellow mortals are or have ever been. Yet he was excited by a new insight, that there was a plot afoot to plunge us into serfdom, fascism, Nazism. This alarm has surged, and now we have men in combat gear standing around at public events, absolutely defying anyone to take away their freedom. If they had not hit upon that one most provocative freedom, the right to menace with firearms, probably no one would ever have given a thought to their rights except to assume that they had the normal set of them. And where is the drama in that? They are standing boldly against an insidious foe, or so they and their friends imagine.

These “enemies” against whom they are armed are Americans who disagree with them.

I am trying to describe a Trumpism that anticipated and continues to enable Trump, that makes a kind of sense of his wild rhetoric and the reaction to it among his loyalists. A historically privileged group – whom it is, sadly, fair to call Republicans – indulge in a fear amounting almost to panic, which has become endemic, stimulated continuously by the presence of those Americans who differ from them, for example about whether the ready availability of guns is related to the criminal use of them...

>109 John5918:--a hint to conservatives fascism starts with trying to marginalize certain sections of society whether their poor, female, immigrants, belong to the wrong races religions or sexual orientations etc. just for some examples. It's also in the 'I'm more patriotic than you are'---all that kind of pseudo nationalism wrapping itself around the flag that says we're better than these others whoever their target others happen to be. There's also these personality fetishes always towards the wealthy, famous, politicos or would be politicos that come with fascism that would turn their most loved into Gods or Angels and their most hated and despised into irredeemable demons that need to be exterminated. People should get that they are flawed.....everyone is flawed in some way or another. There are no devils, angels or Gods or monsters among homosapiens. Some may aspire with all their hearts to those things and some certainly have worse characteristics than others as some have better characteristics but even the best are not perfect and everyone can be fairly critiqued for something or another.

>109 John5918:

Thanks for posting that link, John. I had not seen Robinson's column. She is always worth reading.

>108 margd: I think the commenter Suresh Nirody whose tweet follows the initial Seamus Hughes post might have offered a better interpretation of those numbers. Given that the columns are titled "Preliminary Investigation" , "Full Investigation" and then the column Hughes emphasizes "Total Cases" it could be the column that matters most is the full investigation whereas the total cases is a summary of anything anyone called in as being suspect.

The reason I think this might be what that column reflects is because I know in the years immediately after 9/11 the number of people reporting what they thought might be terrorist activities really jumped (I myself, because of my interest in taking pictures of real trains, was reported as a terrorist and investigated by the police at least 5 times and I'm sure I was reported and discounted by the police more times than that). If this is the case then what the Hughes column indicates is more people are getting serious about the threat of domestic terrorism and choosing to error on the side of caution.

This doesn't negate Hughes nor your concern but it might be more reflective of serious issues. The thing that does attract the eye (at least mine) is the delta in Full Investigations between 2020 and 2021 - 1865 to 3311.

>112 alco261: My personal metric is the abuse my son (and his similarly hued upscale-carwash coworkers) suffered post-Trump. Mostly verbal, but some wienies tried to get kids fired for "incidents" disproved by security cameras, etc. Wienies were empowered, and I bet more violent people were, too?

The modern Republican party is hurtling towards fascism (Guardian)

We are witnessing the logical culmination of win-at-any-cost politics – and Donald Trump has encouraged it... America no longer has two parties devoted to a democratic system of self-government. We have a Democratic party, which – notwithstanding a few glaring counter-examples, such as what the Democratic National Committee did to Bernie Sanders in 2016 – is still largely committed to democracy. And we have a Republican party, which is careening at high velocity toward authoritarianism. OK, fascism...

George Conway🌻 @gtconway3d | 1:55 AM · Apr 16, 2023:
Recovering lawyer. “Well-known detractor of Defendant.” Contributing columnist, @WashingtonPost.

It appears that a former president of the United States tonight reposted a simulated video of a perceived political opponent being killed.

Photo Trump "ReTruth" ( https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1647478867798417408/photo/1 )

All U.S. extremist mass killings in 2022 linked to far right, report says
Ivana Saric | Feb 23, 2023 - Politics & Policy
https://www.axios.com/2023/02/23/mass-killings-extremism-adl-report-2022
----------------------------------------------------

* Murder and Extremism in the United States in 2022 (Report)
Anti-Defamation League | 02.22.2023
https://www.adl.org/resources/report/murder-and-extremism-united-states-2022

Executive Summary
Every year, individuals with ties to different extreme causes and movements kill people in the United States; the ADL Center on Extremism (COE) tracks these murders. Extremists regularly commit murders in the service of their ideology, in the service of a group or gang they may belong to, or even while engaging in traditional, non-ideological criminal activities.

In 2022, domestic extremists killed at least 25 people in the U.S., in 12 separate incidents. This represents a decrease from the 33 extremist-related murders documented in 2021 and is comparable to the 22 extremist-related murders in 2020. It continues the recent trend of fewer extremist-related killings after a five-year span of 47-78 extremist-related murders per year (2015-2019).

The 2022 murder totals would have been much lower if not for two high-casualty extremist-related shooting sprees. Only 10 of the 25 deaths occurred outside of those sprees—and one of those 10 deaths occurred in a less lethal mass shooting attempt.

The issue of extremist-related mass killings is of growing concern and is the subject of a special section of this report. From the 1970s through the 2000s, domestic extremist-related mass killings were relatively uncommon. However, over the past 12 years, their number has greatly increased. Most of these mass killings were committed by right-wing extremists, but left-wing and domestic Islamist extremists were also responsible for incidents. The Center on Extremism has identified 62 extremist-connected mass killing incidents since 1970, with 46 of them being ideologically motivated. Disturbingly, more than half (26, or 57%) of the ideological mass killings have occurred within the past 12 years. Of particular concern in recent years are shootings inspired by white supremacist “accelerationist” propaganda urging such attacks.

In 2022, 18 of the 25 extremist-related murders appear to have been committed in whole or part for ideological motives, while the remaining seven murders either have no clear motive or were committed for a non-ideological motive.

All the extremist-related murders in 2022 were committed by right-wing extremists of various kinds, who typically commit most such killings each year but only occasionally are responsible for all (the last time this occurred was 2012). Left-wing extremists engage in violence ranging from assaults to fire-bombings and arsons, but since the late 1980s have not often targeted people with deadly violence. The same cannot be said for domestic Islamist extremists, but deadly incidents linked to Islamist extremism have decreased significantly in the U.S. over the past five years.

White supremacists commit the greatest number of domestic extremist-related murders in most years, but in 2022 the percentage was unusually high: 21 of the 25 murders were linked to white supremacists. Again, this is primarily due to mass shootings. Only one of the murders was committed by a right-wing anti-government extremist—the lowest number since 2017.

Experts warn of increased risk of US terror attacks by rightwing ‘lone wolf’ actors (Guardian)

The US is at an increased risk of domestic terror attacks by rightwing “lone wolf” actors, experts have warned, as inflammatory Republican rhetoric around a variety of issues seems likely to continue ahead of the 2024 election. The number of attacks by adherents to rightwing ideology has soared since 2016, as Republican lies about election interference, and escalating rhetoric from the right about minority groups, have served to “provide mechanisms” for individuals to become radicalized, an analyst said. As the threat of domestic rightwing terrorism rises, researchers say individuals, rather than organized groups, are now far more likely to commit what analysts call “crimes inspired by extremist ideology”...

Across Europe, the far right is rising. That it seems normal is all the more terrifying (Guardian)

Normalisation is the process by which something unusual or extreme becomes part of the everyday. What once provoked horror and outrage soon barely registers. The way the presence of Donald Trump became a mere fact of political life is perhaps the most familiar example. But the normalisation of the far right is happening across the democratic world. Once Trump became “normal”, events that seemed even more extreme did too. A 2022 survey found that two in five Americans thought civil war was “at least somewhat likely” in the next decade. One political scientist speaks of the possibility of rightwing dictatorship in the US by 2030. The same creep of normalisation is happening in European politics...

Frilly dresses and white supremacy: welcome to the weird, frightening world of ‘trad wives’ (Guardian)

"In some more traditional relationships (but not all) the man disciplines the woman either physically (like spanking) or with things like writing lines and standing in the corner,” one woman advises another... Welcome to the weird and frightening world of trad wives, where women spurn modern, egalitarian values to dedicate their lives to the service of their husbands... a toxic combination of anti-feminism, white supremacy, normalised abuse and a desire to return to an imagined past. Trad wives can be traced back to the Red Pill Women forum that was set up in 2013... As with most far-right trends, most of them appear to be in the US, but due to the networked nature of the modern far right, trends that start stateside don’t remain there. Interviews I conducted revealed that the British far right encourages its women to be trad, with women attending nationalist conferences such as the annual Patriotic Alternative conference, and making a name for themselves on the far-right infosphere... A woman’s role is to stay at home, serving her spouse domestically and sexually, while her partner goes to work to support her. Men should “discipline” women... And, of course, they’re white. One meme I encountered on Telegram during my research summed up a good trad wife as being “knowledgable about her European roots” and who “loves her family, race and culture”. Leading the tribe is far-right influencer Ayla Stewart, who shot to social media fame when her notorious “white baby challenge” went viral after she declared: “As a mother of six, I challenge families to have as many white babies as I have contributed.” The motive behind the white baby challenge, and much of trad wife culture, is a fear of the so-called “great replacement” – a baseless conspiracy theory that believes white people are being “replaced” by migrant people from the global south, while feminists repress the white birthrate via abortion rights. To defeat this so-called “white genocide”, as one Stewart fan expressed it, far-right women need to “Make White Babies Great Again!”... the trad lifestyle is fixed to two essential components of fascist ideology that govern the modern far right: white supremacy and patriarchy...

Not all trad wives are out-and-out racists, e.g., intermarriage with other races. Socially judgmental, though: gays, women drinking, etc. Pray for right wing pols such as Ted Cruz. Subservience to husbands may be superficial? Extremely susceptible to anti-abortion dogma (e.g., knee-jerk, unsupported rxn to term "stem cells") and to conspiracy theory such as anti-vaccism. Attached to idea of home-schooling, rejecting advantages of trained teachers, secondary supports, evidence-based curricula, peer-socialization...

Reading the Warmth of Other Suns, I'm thinking Jim-Crow blacks weren't the only Americans who came north in early 20th c. to take advantage of industrial jobs... Also, The Reformation: A History: the Reformation goes on in US, where ministers and pastors seem almost self-declared with their own idiosyncratic views of Scripture?

Trump and the Republican party exemplify these five elements of fascism (Guardian)

1. The rejection of democracy, the rule of law and equal rights under the law in favor of a strongman who interprets the popular will...
2. The galvanizing of popular rage against cultural elites...
3. Nationalism based on a dominant “superior” race and historic bloodlines...
4. Extolling brute strength and heroic warriors...
5. Disdain of women and fear of non-standard gender identities or sexual orientation...

Opinion: White nationalist Patriot Front members sue for being exposed for who they are

https://www.idahostatesman.com/opinion/editorials/article278113542.html

“What’s most interesting about this suit is that the Patriot Front members are complaining that their hideous, “unpopular” beliefs have consequences.

The five plaintiffs say they were fired from their jobs, have been threatened at their homes and have had their tires slashed, among other things, according to the lawsuit. While those latter two things certainly go way across the line, the first is a result of actions having consequences.

“This complaint seeks to vindicate the rule of law and basic principles of free expression for persons who espouse unpopular opinions,” according to the lawsuit.

It’s a warped view of freedom of expression when Patriot Front members attempt to completely conceal their ownership of said expression.“

California elementary school evacuated over bomb threat after rightwing harassment (Guardian)

Chabot elementary in Oakland received racist and threatening emails, forcing 50 students and staff to vacate the premises...

Man charged with murder, abuse of corpse after father found beheaded inside Middletown Twp. home
Sharifa Jackson and Corey Davis | January 31, 2024

...Justin Mohn referred to himself as a militia leader and called his father a traitor to the country for being a federal employee for 20 years.

He also spoke about President Joe Biden and threatened multiple federal agencies in the gruesome YouTube video while reading from a script...

https://6abc.com/justin-mohn-levitttown-middletown-township-pa-father-killed/143...

>123 margd: Newsweek has done a background story on Mohn:

https://www.newsweek.com/justin-mohn-wrote-book-satanic-cult-1865604

Sadly, he’s probably not the only one out there.

Wonder where his dad worked...

US says leaders of white supremacist group plotted global attacks online (BBC)

US prosecutors in California charged two people with running a white supremacist group on the messaging app Telegram to inspire acts of violence across the country. In a 37-page indictment unsealed on Monday, Dallas Erin Humber, 34, and Matthew Robert Allison, 37, are accused of leading the "Terrorgram" network, which urged members to carry out terror attacks in an effort to spark a race war. Officials said the defendants used Terrorgram to distribute materials for bombs, to send lists of potential assassination targets and to encourage others to carry out their own attacks. Mr Allison told members to "take action now" and "do your part", prosecutors alleged...

Suspicious packages sent to election officials across US
Nadine Yousif | 17 September 2024

...The FBI and the US Postal Department are investigating suspicious packages received by election officials in 17 states.

Federal investigators said they were collecting the packages and that some contained “an unknown substance”, though there were no reports of injuries.

They were sent to secretaries of state and state election officials across a swathe of the country from New York to Alaska.

It comes amid reports of rising threats directed at election officials across the US and warnings of political violence as November's presidential election approaches.

... Colorado Secretary of State Jena Griswold wrote in a post on X, formerly Twitter, that whoever posted the letters had called themselves as the “US Traitor Elimination Army”...

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c70w49w6pk2o

>127 margd: CONTD.

Doc @DocAtCDI | 10:39 PM · Sep 23, 2024 {x}:

I live in a "swing state," the only place where any votes seem to count according to people who defend the electoral college.

My daughter is a county clerk; she is in charge of handling elections for a large county in Michigan.

The FBI came in and told her to shut down all her social media, and if she couldn’t, to remove all references to family and change her name.

No one in her office is allowed to open any mail without gloves and a mask. They have armed security when they enter and leave the city building. They receive 2-3 letters a day filled with white powder (so far, flour or powdered sugar).

Please don’t think we’ve got this under control. There is LITERALLY a war going on, quietly, waged by domestic terrorists, to take away your right to have your voice heard.

This woman, who I can’t name because her life is in danger, goes into combat every single day to try to protect your right to have your voice heard!

Don’t let her down.
------------------------------------------

Physical Security: Personal Safety
U.S. Election Assistance Commission | June 2023 v 1.0

The 60 Second Security Series is intended to help election officials quickly identify, and address, potential security issues. Each topic includes a brief description, a list of security measures, and potential funding sources for making these improvements. More information about election security can be found at www.eac.gov ...

https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/files/2023-06/Final_60_Second_Personal_Securit...

Property crime? WTH??

Arizona Democratic campaign office damaged by gunfire, police say
Haley Williams | September 23, 2024

No one was in the office at the time.
...Officials are investigating it as a property crime, police said...

https://www.12news.com/article/news/crime/dnc-campaign-office-in-tempe-damaged-g...

MAGA crazy

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C_s90dLONBU/?igsh=MTZ3cmZxcmhyZGxiZA==

>130 2wonderY: Aiyiyi. Wouldn't be bad if these bozos can keep their "Christian" women from voting. Astonishingly a bunch of their ladies are good with that, if social media is any guide. Astounded to discover yesterday that a CANADIAN anti-vaxxer I know is good with Project 2025, RFK Jr, etc., at least the anti-vaxx part of it. Insidious, it is ... SO need to teach critical thinking to the next generation...

BBC confronts neo-Nazi who gave UK rioters arson tips (BBC)

The BBC has confronted a neo-Nazi in Finland who shared online instructions on how to commit arson with UK rioters during the summer. The 20-year-old was an administrator in the Southport Wake Up group on the Telegram messaging app, where he was known as “Mr AG”. He posted the arson manual, which was pinned to the top of the group chat. In late July and early August, the group was key in helping to organise and provoke protests that turned to violence in England and Northern Ireland... Mr AG posted the arson manual, writing: “Something fun for you to read.” The manual is believed to have been written by a Russian fascist group proscribed as terrorists in their own country. It includes details on how to avoid the police and it encourages the targeting of Muslims and Jews...

Man Arrested and Charged with Attempting to Use a Weapon of Mass Destruction and to Destroy an Energy Facility in Nashville

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/man-arrested-and-charged-attempting-use-weapon-ma...

“Driven by a racially motivated violent extremist ideology, the Defendant planned to attack the power grid with a drone and explosives, leaving thousands of Americans and critical infrastructure like hospitals without power,” said FBI Director Christopher Wray.

>133 2wonderY: Enemies within, indeed...

US Capitol Police arrests man with torch, flare gun at Capitol Visitor Center

https://www.dcnewsnow.com/news/local-news/washington-dc/us-capitol-police-arrest...

>134 margd: I had opportunity to mention the story today in class. We will be discussing How to Blow Up a Pipeline for the cause of climate change protest.

White-supremacist demonstrations have popped up, unannounced, in a couple of Michigan towns.
The days following, locals showed up with mops and brooms to sanitize the sidewalks where the white supremacists had demonstrated. :)

>137 margd: Oh! I like that! I will pass that idea along. Columbus, Ohio had black clad and masked men with Nazi flags strutting their stuff.

>138 2wonderY: Wow! Creeps and incels are feeling emboldened... :(

Masked group marches through Ohio neighborhood with swastika flags
The police are investigating the incident.
Ivan Pereira | November 16, 2024

... Columbus, Ohio ... Howell, Michigan ... {and reportedly Ann Arbor, MI} ...

https://abcnews.go.com/US/masked-group-marches-ohio-neighborhood-swastikas-flags...

There was a pro-slavery march in Boston yesterday.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/11/16/metro/abortion-mens-march-boston-protest/

Ed Krassenstein @EdKrassen | 9:16 AM · Jan 4, 2025:

All of the MAGA republicans trying to somehow blame Biden, or immigrants for this, what do you say now?

Cybertruck Bomber (MSG Matt Livelsberger { the driver of the Tesla Cybertruck that exploded on New Year's Day outside the Trump International Las Vegas Hotel}):

“Try peaceful means first, but be prepared to fight to get the Dems out of the fed government and military by any means necessary. They all must go and a hard reset must occur for our country to avoid collapse.”

No, this isn’t the fault of MAGA either. It’s one crazy person who did a terrible thing. Stop trying to blame others for what one man did.

Misogyny identified as breeding ground for extremism in UK, says leaked report (Guardian)

Hindu nationalism, misogyny and the “manosphere” have been identified as breeding grounds for extremism in a leaked report commissioned by Yvette Cooper after last summer’s riots. The home secretary’s “rapid analytical sprint” also dismissed claims of “two-tier policing” as a “rightwing extremist narrative”. It argued that the authorities should adopt a “behaviour-based and ideologically agnostic approach” to clamping down on extremism rather than focus resources primarily on “ideologies of concern”... “Hindu nationalist extremism is an extremist ideology that advocates for Hindu supremacy and seeks to transform India into an ethno-religious Hindu state... Under the heading “extreme misogyny”, the report said “an online subculture called the ‘manosphere’ contains a significant amount of content directly focused on misogyny, and sometimes absorbs extremist rightwing tropes. “The ‘manosphere’ encompasses a wide array of communities that include men’s rights activists; pickup artists; men going their own way; and involuntary celibates or ‘incels’. “There is an overlap between some manosphere narratives, in particular incel beliefs, and extreme rightwing {ERW} ideology including racist narratives. Globalisation and multiculturalism, which are at the centre of many ERW narratives, are often blamed as factors in incels’ celibacy.” The report also says that the activity of grooming gangs is frequently exploited by the far right, and that rightwing extremist ideologies and beliefs are “leaking” into the mainstream. “Rightwing extremist narratives (particularly around immigration and policing) are in some cases ‘leaking’ into mainstream debates. Claims of ‘two-tier’ policing – where two groups are allegedly treated differently after similar behaviour – is a recent example,” the report said. The government’s approach to extremism should no longer be based on “specific ideologies of concern, but on behaviours and activity”, the report said...

A year of hate: what I learned when I went undercover with the far right (Guardian)

Working for Hope Not Hate, I infiltrated an extremist organisation, befriended its members and got to work investigating their political connections...

The phrase "domestic terrorism" might be misapplied here. Keying someone's car is wrong, yes, and it's a stupid thing to do, but it's not "terrorism" in most people's estimation. Gangs of armed thugs illegally kidnapping innocent people off the street and sending them off to a gulag in El Salvador in order to stifle political dissent, that comes a bit closer to "terrorism" - though of course since it's the state that's doing it, we usually refer to it as "fascism" rather than "terrorism", but that's mostly a matter of usage. It's still the use of violence against a civilian population in order to support a destructive political aim, so it's terrorism in my book no matter who does it.

We should also remember that terrorism has been a part of Trumpism since his first debacle - remember the terrorists who murdered Heather Heyer? Remember how our Dear Leader said they were "fine people"? Remember the attacks on peaceful protests by the Proud Boys? Plenty of actual terrorism that you could speak up against if terrorism bothers you. Does it?

> Are you seriously rehashing that "fine people" nonsense all these years later?

Reminding you of who we're talking about, yes. Reminding you that his fascist tendencies aren't a momentary aberration but a character trait demonstrated over his decades of public life, yes. Pointing out that there's a lot of terrorism that you're not interested in talking about, yes.

So yeah, I'm bringing up those facts. I understand why you don't want to talk about them and you just want them to go away. I understand, but I'm not letting you get away with it.

While I do think that property violence can be labelled terrorism, the use of state apparatus to intimidate legislators and judges, subvert laws and the courts, and discourage dissent is far greater than damage to Teslas. I will note that among car enthusiasts, Tesla owners have been seen as very poor and inconsiderate drivers for many years, so much that it has become a trope, so some of the "terrorism" is not political at all.

The prosecution of judges, the attacks on legal guests in the US, the yo-yo application of executive decisions on legal guests, and the mass deportations without due process should disturb anyone that believes in the rights of man. Eventually, the other side will also seek "retribution". And then, the right will be crying for the rights they destroyed.

State terrorism isn't just Thursday in the likes of Argentina and Chile. I think many people would say that what the US administration is currently doing amounts to state terrorism. (Kidnapping people off the streets and deporting them to foreign prisons with no recourse. Threatening to strip people of citizenship. Dismantling every bit of "welfare state" and social justice institutions they can reach. Attacking education on every level. Etc. ) Consider that an important part of it is general intimidation. Well, American citizens have told me they have been too intimidated to protest; that they fear the future; that they are afraid and so on -- all that due to what the state is doing.

>150 johnny1991:

I'd be interested to know where you get that figure of 20 million. I've been googling and I can only find figures of around 10 to 11 million "illegal" immigrants, most of whom reportedly come from the USA's immediate neighbour Mexico. People crossing between neighbouring countries without bothering about immigration formalities has been going on for centuries long before there were artificially defined borders, and the EU has recognised that and made internal migration legal in most cases.

10 million is a little under 3% of the people in the USA, and I think there are many countries in which court hearings on laws affecting that percentage of the population are actually found to be very feasible. Nearly 1% of the population of the USA is in prison, and obviously it was feasible to grant them the right to a hearing, to say nothing about all the others who were acquitted or faced non-custodial sentences.

Having access to due legal process over something as major as deportation is a basic right, not depending on feasibility. The USA is not party to the 1951 Refugee Convention but has ratified the 1967 Protocol and agreed to respect most of the obligations of the original treaty.

And conflating "illegal" immigrants and "foreign criminals" is very disingenuous. Only a very small percentage of any population, including foreign immigrants and white Americans, are criminals.

>152 John5918: It should be obvious - either they made it up, or they got it from someone who made it up.

Every time I come across this sort of racist drivel about how much they hate "illegals" and making up ever-more lurid stories of immigrant criminality, I'm reminded of this GIF. I really think that >151 johnny1991: is unable to comprehend just how much their life depends on the people they despise.

>153 kiparsky: Do not underestimate the amount of self-inflicted pain the far right will endure just to hurt others and "be right". As someone pointed out recently, authoritarianism has a significant amount of support, even if it isn't a majority.

>154 Cardboard_killer: Sadly, I'm well aware of this. It seems like a sad but apt illustration of Johnson's maxim that as long as you can tell him that he's better than a Black man, the bigot will happily turn out his pockets for you.

>150 johnny1991:

One could make a pretty good argument that there are about 300 million illegal immigrants in the US if one holds that there is no birth-right citizenship for the children of illegals.

>156 librorumamans: And I can think of at least one of those illegal immigrants who is a very bad hombre indeed - a felon and an adjudicated rapist, no less.

>150 johnny1991: Illegal immigrants and foreign criminals in the country should not have any rights to not be deported. I mean, maybe in an ideal world we could grant them right to a hearing first, but when there are 20 million of them that's just not feasible.

In an ideal world? Funny, here I was thinking that the world is what we make it, that it was up to us to create this ideal world. Certainly dismissing a legal obligation as "that's just not feasible" for a decades long issue that doesn't need to be fixed tomorrow is acting against the creation of a better world.

>159 johnny1991: a zero power person in the peanut gallery

...says the wannabe nazi bloviating on a politics forum on Librarything.

>161 kiparsky: But you see, kiparsky, they identify with power.

>159 johnny1991:

No, it's not just my opinion, it's enshrined in international treaties and norms. Asylum seekers and refugees are not to be criminalised just because they enter a country without following the normal procedures (cf Article 31 of the 1951 Convention). States may not impose penalties on refugees who entered illegally in search of asylum.

The US respect for constitutionality, due process and the rule of law is one of the things which many of us non-Americans (and indeed many Americans) used to admire about the USA and which made the USA great, so it is very sad to see that those who claim to want to make the USA great are trashing many of the things which actually did make it great.

It's ironic really that less than 3% of the US population can actually claim not to be the descendants of immigrants. The remaining 97% (including quite a lot of the "worse " criminals) are of immigrant stock.

>159 johnny1991: Some of them are worse criminals than others, but they are all criminals or they wouldn't be there illegally.

Let he who is without sin through the first stone. That may be slightly parochial, but most wise men throughout history and culture ripped into people, especially the privileged, who judged others and ignored their own crimes. The US has signed treaties about asylum seekers and refugees that the current administration is ignoring, but let's focus on "your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"instead.

Oh, and Elon Musk is an illegal immigrant, having lost a student visa and stuck around to start a business without a work visa. Somehow he gets a lot of power instead of being treated as a criminal.

>147 kiparsky:

It really was fake news.

https://www.allsides.com/news/2024-06-24-0716/facts-and-fact-checking-snopes-fin...

>153 kiparsky:

You're right Kip! We should let illegals come here to be our work slaves and sex slaves! Democrats are always looking for new slaves! They'll be more useful here than in their homeland where they'll at least get free healthcare as slaves! Go team slavery!

>165 TheToadRevoltof84: Facts don't change because you want them to, sorry. He did say there were "very fine people on both sides", and the two sides were decent people and Nazis. If he thought there were "very fine people on both sides" and one of those sides was out there carrying torches and shouting antisemitic and racist filth, he thought some of those Nazi trash were "very fine people".

>166 TheToadRevoltof84: It's always interesting when you try to go Trotsky on us. Go on, explain to us how capitalism is slavery and we should all be working for the People's Revolution and the glories of communism. I'm dying to hear all about it.

>167 kiparsky:

It is fake news and fake outrage. Find a new train and get a new ticket.

>168 kiparsky:

Not sure what you're aiming at but you've got bigger problems than capitalism. The fact that you interpreted my hatred of slavery and funneling human life here for cheap labor speaks quite loudly. Self loathing and self worship are both narcissism.

>165 TheToadRevoltof84:

And that's what separates credible media sources from a lot of the unregulated and partisan social media. Everybody makes mistakes from time to time, but professional media are ready to acknowledge and correct their mistakes.

But if one reads the Snopes statement, No, Trump Did Not Call Neo-Nazis and White Supremacists 'Very Fine People', it's a little more nuanced than the article that you cite, as it also says:

Editors' Note: Some readers have raised the objection that this fact check appears to assume Trump was correct in stating that there were "very fine people on both sides" of the Charlottesville incident. That is not the case. This fact check aimed to confirm what Trump actually said, not whether what he said was true or false. For the record, virtually every source that covered the Unite the Right debacle concluded that it was conceived of, led by and attended by white supremacists, and that therefore Trump's characterization was wrong.

>170 TheToadRevoltof84: Ah, your "hatred of slavery". I see.

So you're saying that people working for wages is "slavery"?

Go on, comrade. I'm listening.

>172 kiparsky:

Ooh, that sounds very Marxist - wage slavery!

>172 kiparsky:

Can we work Foucault in there as well?

>175 johnny1991: they are getting deported as we speak

Yes, as I said earlier, it's sad to see a once great nation trashing the rule of law.

>172 kiparsky:

So, Democrats want living wages for everybody but illegal immigrants? If I were saying that about any other demographic, you'd get yourself in a tizzy, but the slaves can work for peanuts. I guess when you're a self worshipping/Godless animal you can be as flexible as you want in your own little universe. I highly doubt I support Marxism as much as you do. All things considering, you've likely been more supportive of Socialism than I have.

Just like the Civil War, threaten to take away a Democrat's slave and they get all flustered and try and kill everyone.

The Globe and Mail, April 26, 2025, O3
Empathy is humanity’s superpower, not its weakness (Paywalled, unfortunately)

Anita Nowak

Elon Musk recently told podcaster Joe Rogan: “The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy.”
. . .
Empathy is the innate trait that unites us in our common humanity. When we step into someone else’s shoes or feel what someone else is feeling, we transcend otherness. Moreover, as Jeremy Rifkin wrote in The Empathic Civilization, “The ability to recognize oneself in the other and the other in oneself is a deeply democratizing experience.”
. . .
I have long argued that social progress is only possible in the presence of collective empathy. Consider all the major social movements in recent history that have expanded human rights and dignity across the globe. Stories about suffragettes being force-fed in prison led to public outcry. Images of children crawling through coal mines stirred the public conscience. Televised images of police brutality in Selma transformed spectators into allies, as did the brutal killing of George Floyd on social media. But we don’t have to wait to witness injustice, indignity and suffering. Instead, we can practice empathy on purpose.
. . .
Thanks, Jane Fonda, for getting it right: “Empathy is not weak or woke,” she recently said. Now, put down that ridiculous chainsaw, Elon.

Anita Nowak teaches Social Entrepreneurship & Innovation and Happiness Means Business at McGill University. She is the author of Purposeful Empathy: Tapping our Hidden Superpower for Personal, Organizational and Social Change.

>177 TheToadRevoltof84: Your brain seems to have glitched out, you're spitting nonsense. Please reboot, reread, and try again, this time with reference to something I've said.

>179 kiparsky:

We established that you propagate a lie regarding Trump's statement regarding "good people on both sides" and now we're establishing your cheap labor opinion. Even if I have glitched out, I believe in something, whereas you're simply tethered to a political party. Illegal immigration leads to death, suffering, and slavery and we should not pretend otherwise, just so you can have cheap stuff.

Trump isn't even a Conservative; he's a moderate Democrat of the pre-Obama ilk.

>180 TheToadRevoltof84: We established that you propagate a lie regarding Trump's statement regarding "good people on both sides"

Did we now?
Okay, let's go back and do this in steps.

Do you deny that Trump said that "there were good people on both sides"?

>181 kiparsky:

Nope. But is that false and why?

>171 John5918:

Snopes lied and tried(tries) to sneakily cover their lies by using false conjecture/projected statistics with no basis. Their beliefs do not provide any actual evidence. They actually do it, just for you John. Nobody else has so much trust in the 'professionals'.

>182 TheToadRevoltof84: Okay. Do you deny that the "two sides" there consisted of a load of Nazis and associated white supremacists yelling antisemitic and racist slogans such as "Jews will not replace us" and the like, and a group of counter-protesters objecting to the glorification of white supremacy?

>166 TheToadRevoltof84: We should let illegals come here to be our work slaves and sex slaves!

Claiming to be concerned about them is undercut by your use of the word "illegals".

If they were slaves, this idea that they should deport themselves would be absurd; slaves can't just get up and leave. They come here of their own free-will to get paid and to live in safer surroundings.

Moreover, it's fully in our power to give them permits to live in the country. Many of the people Trump is deporting had permits; remember the CHNV parole program that DHS canceled? We're talking about people who had made application for asylum or refugee status.

>175 johnny1991: And that's part of the reason fascism gets brought up so much. Democratic republics are built around the rule of law. Fascists get to say that laws "do not really matter".

There is a time and place for having sympathy for foreigners, but when your own country ...

I.e. it's okay to have thoughts and prayers, but actually taking action is out of line.

when your own country is being invaded and you face existential threats

The only existential threat I see is the one that is saying that laws, treaties and human rights don't matter.

>180 TheToadRevoltof84: Trump isn't even a Conservative; he's a moderate Democrat of the pre-Obama ilk.

Most Republicans aren't conservatives, and I'm not sure they've been conservatives for a while. But Trump repealed a civil rights executive order from LBJ that had been fine with 60 years of presidents. He's rolled back 90 years of free trade legislation. Calling him a moderate Democrat of the pre-Obama ilk is absurd.

>184 kiparsky:

Clearly the intent was not to uplift those. Let's stop pretending.

>185 prosfilaes:

You're cute.

1. Illegally entering a country gives you a title, illegal.
2. They were invited here by the Biden administration and there are many tragic tales of lost life and many are sold into sex slavery. There are many stories of other children working in unsafe conditions, yes, in our country. These immigrants are working for poor pay and being subsidized by the government, money our government doesn't actually have due to our massive debt. They will be trapped in poverty and be a victim class to our ever-growing government. But, it's okay, stuff will be cheaper for you.
3. Let's eliminate laws and borders so we can all live free? You have never actually read a history book.

>186 prosfilaes:

LBJ was horrible, and any executive order he and 60 years of the worst presidents in history are okay with, doesn't make it anything we'll miss.

90 years of the US paying tariffs and not making anyone else pay tariffs, isn't really free trade. Right or wrong, he likes playing the tariff game.

He's a social lib and he's much more pre–Obama Democrat than he is conservative.

>187 TheToadRevoltof84: So you don't deny that of the two sides which both had "very fine people", one was a mob of Nazis and other white supremacists who were shouting antisemitic and racist chants?

I just want to be sure we're in agreement on the basic facts of the case.

>190 kiparsky:

Ha.

The 'Fake News' crowd did fix this in their fact check, with this statement about 7 years after the fact:

“In a news conference after the rally protesting the planned removal of a Confederate statue, Trump did say there were ‘very fine people on both sides,’ referring to the protesters and the counterprotesters. He said in the same statement he wasn’t talking about neo-Nazis and white nationalists, who he said should be ‘condemned totally,'” Snopes acknowledged.

So, if you're going to continue with the lie, go ahead, but it's simply not fitting the narrative you're painting here.

>191 TheToadRevoltof84: I can't help noticing that you're unwilling to admit the basic facts of the situation. Is there a reason you're not willing to admit that there were two "sides" in Charlottesville, and one of those sides was composed of Nazis and other racists shouting racist and antisemitic slogans?

>192 kiparsky:

I already admitted that, and exactly what does that have to do with what Trump said in relationship to this situation, other than he directly condemned them 'totally'...? Seriously, what are you even saying?

>193 TheToadRevoltof84: Wow. It's like pulling teeth, trying to get you to give a straight answer.

So, next question: who were the "fine people" who joined the Nazis and other assorted racists to shout racist and antisemitic slogans? What makes them "fine people" in your view?

You've admitted that Trump said there were "fine people" trying to incite violence against Jews. Do you agree with him?

>194 kiparsky:

You do realize that violence was coming from both sides? Trump did not say that everyone that was there was condemnable and explicitly stated that he condemned all forms of racism. What are you trying to prove? I don't know anybody that was in Charlottesville then or now. Except a fantastic French Bakery called Cou Cou Rachou.

I think you're absolutely, entirely wrong about how you're trying to spin this hoax. Give it up. It's not even a realistic or important hoax to prop up, except that you believe this without it ever having occurred.

>195 TheToadRevoltof84: Nice try, but we can change the subject once we get this bit sorted. Who were the "fine people" who joined the Nazis and other racists to march with torches and shout racist and antisemitic slogans?

> I think you're absolutely, entirely wrong about how you're trying to spin this hoax. Give it up. It's not even a realistic or important hoax to prop up, except that you believe this without it ever having occurred.

I think you'll find, if you read a few posts up, that you've already agreed that it happened. That part's done, sorry. This is why I made sure to get you on record about the facts, since I had a feeling you would try to go back and relitigate them.

So once again: you've admitted that Trump said there were "fine people" trying to incite violence against Jews. Do you agree with him?

>195 TheToadRevoltof84:

I would like to note, the context is likely that there are fine people on both sides of the debate, regarding the removal of statues. I don't believe that Trump was attempting to say anything more than his ignorance would let him on the matter...but he did condemn the racism which is the purpose of the hoax, to spin him as a racist/white supremacist/whatever bigotry you'd like to enlist. There were people that did not want the statues removed for a multitude of reasons, not simply as Alt Right members. The debate and events were bigger than the torch carrying crowd.

Did you read his whole speech?

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1769357813510226410/video/2

Oh, boy. That's... unexpected.

You think that when he was asked about the white nationalists and nazis, that he somehow got confused and answered a different question?

Here's a link to video. You'll see that he's being asked about the people who killed Heather Heyer, and that's when he delivers his "both sides" line. Even given his issues with dementia, I think it would be hard to argue that he was confused in this case.

Whatever he might have tried to say later to try to retcon his remark does not matter. I'm not talking about his attempts at damage control, I'm talking about what he said. I don't care what your handlers say on twitter, I'm talking about the what actually happened.

Now. Once again. Trump said there were "fine people" trying to incite violence against Jews. Do you agree with him? You've admitted it once, and then tried to recant it (sorry, not letting you off that hook), and now you've seen the actual footage of him saying it, in context. So there's absolutely no room for doubt about what he said and what he meant.

So. Do you agree with him?

It sounds like you want to say no, you don't agree that Nazis who murder innocent people who stand up for the rights of Jews are "fine people". It's okay, this is a safe space. Nobody will tell on you here, it's just between us. Let it out!

>198 kiparsky:

User clip? Really? The full video is a few posts up. Your hoax is washed up, and I forgive you Kip, it's okay, I don't really think Trump is going to fix the government either.

I don't know where you find the patience, kiparsky. For TheToad and suchlike the semblance of an argument is everything; there is no having a genuine discussion with them.

>199 TheToadRevoltof84: So when I give you footage including both the question and the answer, you refer me to a clip which does not include the question. He was asked about Heather Heyer and that's when he said "fine people".

It looks like now we're getting to the point where you're just flat-out lying, which is a bit weird. Why would you try to lie about facts that anyone can verify for themselves? You just make yourself look like an idiot that way.

>200 LolaWalser: Yeah, I think we've just exhausted my patience. Being wrong is curable, being stupid is kind of the human condition, but being a fucking lying-ass sack of shit? Nah. No time for that.

Leaving this here, if this pathetic turdrocket comes back around and wants to be paid attention to, we can just point them here and let them know they've got outstanding business to attend to.

>188 TheToadRevoltof84: 1. Illegally entering a country gives you a title, illegal.

And sexually assaulting women doesn't? I wouldn't have argued with you about "illegal immigrants", but cutting off the immigrants part is false; one in three Americans has a criminal record, and using illegal only to refer to immigrants is hostile and deceptive.

They were invited here by the Biden administration

I don't know who "they" are.

And none of this responds to Moreover, it's fully in our power to give them permits to live in the country. Many of the people Trump is deporting had permits; remember the CHNV parole program that DHS canceled? We're talking about people who had made application for asylum or refugee status. I don't buy your concerns with illegals when you start expelling legal immigrants.

many tragic tales

Yes, there are many tragic tales. Some of them are true. But perhaps we stick to facts, and preferably statistics? We'll see how you like tragic tales when we talk about school shootings, and those are all true and well-documented.

being subsidized by the government, money our government doesn't actually have due to our massive debt.

Immigrants are not eligible for most forms of government handouts. If the Republicans cared about the massive debt, they would try and raise taxes or cut things like Social Security (1.5 trillion in 2024), Medicare (865 billion) or military (850 billion), the largest lines on the 2024 Federal budget.

Let's eliminate laws and borders so we can all live free?

That's such a strawman. I was arguing for not terminating the right of people to live here who had had that right extended by previous administrations. I've argued for laws, like not deporting people without a hearing.

>189 TheToadRevoltof84: If Trump removed an executive order LBJ and "60 years of the worst presidents in history are okay with", then he's not like the pre-Obama Democrats included in those 60 years of presidents.

But yeah, that's pretty much support for segregation and widespread voter suppression.

He's a social lib

I have no clue what you mean by that. How exactly is he a social lib? Because he hasn't tried to throw gay people out of the military?

he's much more pre–Obama Democrat than he is conservative.

Which is not the claim you made, or a claim I'm going to try and make sense of. Trump is not conservative, but it's not like there's a line, conservative to Democrat, and all positions are on that line. Trump is massively reactionary and you basically just agreed with that.

So now I'm confused. We're told that immigration is bad for the USA, but now it seems it's good for the USA as long as the immigrants are white, racist and fairly right wing?

‘A godsend’: the white Afrikaners lining up to accept Trump’s offer of asylum (Guardian)

Thousands of South Africans are hoping to move to the US to escape crime –and what they say is discrimination against white people...

>204 johnny1991: So you're saying there were some people who showed up to the Nazi-organized rally thinking it was a historical preservation society event? And that these people, having no Nazi inclinations whatsoever found themselves surrounded by Nazis doing their Nazi shit, and they just sort of hung around doing Nazi stuff with the Nazis, but they're actually fine people?

Okay, maybe you believe that, but do you think anybody's who's not a Nazi would believe that?

>201 kiparsky:

Look, you are angry because you believe a lie and you're trying to skew the entirety of the interview. It's fine, you can call me whatever you like, you don't owe me a thing. But, you can't lie your way out of this. You're ignoring context. I do know that it's hard to accept, so I do forgive your anger, but you should refrain from the projection. Thank you for your patience.

>207 TheToadRevoltof84:. Classic "I'm rubber" stuff. You've got some work to do here, lying-ass sack of shit. Clean up your mess.

>202 prosfilaes:

I don't think your arguments are in earnest here regarding the assault.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCocCkhr0m8

https://www.newsweek.com/video-shows-migrants-thanking-joe-biden-support-before-...

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/migrant-who-thanked-biden-entering-us-illegally...

https://nypost.com/2024/04/12/us-news/migrants-thank-biden-for-letting-them-in-a...

I won't address the straw man, as the intention is to say that most of the immigration crisis was not folks looking for asylum, they are entering illegally. Do illegal things and suffer the consequences, like deportation without a trial ~ providing you can't give a case for asylum.

Voter suppression hoaxer?

Trump was for gays before Obama, who turns out is probably gay.

>208 kiparsky:

I'm not lying Kip. You're hoaxing.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/full-transcript-of-trumps-both-sides-charlo...

>210 TheToadRevoltof84: I don't think anybody actually cares what a lying-ass sack of shit says, do they?

>211 kiparsky:
Apparently not.

>212 TheToadRevoltof84: And that's the right answer. So, being a damned lying-ass sack of shit isn't really going to get you a whole lot of response other than "shut the fuck up, you lying-ass sack of shit". Sorry if it hurts your poor little feelings, but lying was a choice that you made.

By the way, you might notice that the only person agreeing with you here is an admirer of Hitler with a weird fixation on the imagined innate superiority of white people. That might give you a clue about what sort of person is willing to believe the shit you're trying to sell. Is that really the company you want to keep?

>213 kiparsky:
I don't really see a big difference, honestly. Except the racist seems to be thinking for himself.

>214 TheToadRevoltof84: To be honest I don't see a lot of difference either. Which of you are you saying is the sock puppet? Or are you saying you're both new instances of the same old moron that we've seen so many times?

>215 kiparsky:
Ha. You don't owe me anything, Kip. I'm not offended that you have these ideas in your head. We all have to come to the truth in our own time.

>217 johnny1991: Oh, give it up. Yeah, he realized that he'd fucked up when he called the Nazis "fine people" and tried to retcon it. But you can't get away from the fact that when he was asked about the murder of Heather Heyer, the first thing he came up with was "very fine people". So then he tries to say that there's, you know, boy scouts and nuns and historical preservationists hanging out with the fucking Nazi scum doing fucking Nazi scum stuff with them, but they're not fucking Nazi scum.

You've seen the footage of that rally. Those were not boy scouts and nuns and historical preservationists, those were a bunch of white supremacists and Nazis and would-be Klan weenies. You know it, I know it, and Trump knew it, and you know that you're full of shit, and you're just hoping that if you repeat your lies often enough they'll become true. Fuck off.

>209 TheToadRevoltof84: I don't think your arguments are in earnest here regarding the assault.

Again, I have no context for this.

Migrants thanking Joe Biden doesn't mean shit, you know. But Biden's really off-topic, so I won't dig into that more.

I won't address the straw man, as the intention is to say that most of the immigration crisis was not folks looking for asylum, they are entering illegally.

But it's not a strawman. There's a difference between deporting immigrants and deporting illegal immigrants. When you start kicking out people who are here legally, that fig leaf falls off.

Do illegal things and suffer the consequences, like deportation without a trial

The consequences for doing illegal things come after a trial. That's called due process, and it's guaranteed by the Constitution.

Voter suppression hoaxer?

You complained about LBJ and all the presidents after him. One piece of legislation LBJ is known for is the Voting Rights Act of 1965, to protect the rights of Blacks to vote, which is very well-documented to have been suppressed.

Trump was for gays before Obama, who turns out is probably gay.

Eyeroll. Welcome to the 21st century. Latest poll numbers are 69% support of legal gay marriage and 64% support of same-sex relations, with Republicans coming in at 46% and 40% respectively. In 2016 the Republican platform opposed gay marriage; in 2024 they dropped that section from their platform. Basic support for gays and lesbians is merely not regressive, not liberal. When he came to this support isn't relevant; many people change positions on the political spectrum as they age just by staying in one place while "liberal" and "conservative" change around them. And I trust Trump less than other politicians to have a coherent position on things that's reflected in his actions, and politicians as a whole are oft driven by popular opinion and convenience.

He's rolled back 60 years of anti-discrimination law, and viciously attacked transgender rights. That puts him as not social liberal.

>219 prosfilaes:

If, indeed, I thought they were actually kicking out citizens or people here rightfully that weren't in some way connected to crime, I might be concerned. But, the media (on both sides, granted) lies and twists most stories. So, I just don't believe this is a real problem. In fact, I know that stories are literally made up just to rile up each side. Obama deported lots of folks and built cages for others.

Nobody is discriminating against anyone, when it comes to voting. That's rile up/fake news.

I actually don't think a discussion can logically be had regarding sexual matters, I tend to allow my fallen world side to win the debate and accept a libertarian position. But, Trump was for gays in the 80's!

I don't think the transgender debate is a clean-cut matter, as I believe this is an abused issue. I think most of the world is moving away from the previous path of trans-doctrine, particularly in Europe, while the in U.S. public support has also waned. Trump is not alone in that, so categorically this matter doesn't disqualify him as socially liberal.

More than 400 actors and industry figures sign open letter backing trans rights (The Guardian, April 30)

Robert De Niro supports daughter Airyn as she comes out as trans: ‘I don’t know what the big deal is’ (The Guardian, May 1)

>221 LolaWalser:

Okay, 400 of the most oblivious, self-interested, bubble residing individuals sign an open letter... That's quite the argument.

They got the headlines because they are public figures. Many more of us who are not public figures support trans rights.

Even on "TERF Island", thousands marched in support of trans rights (and will again in the coming days):

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1kb15o3/photos_from_the_recent_t...

In the EU overall support for LGBTQ rights is on the rise compared to 2019 (Wikipedia). Broken down by country there are fluctuations regarding specific subsections or types of rights, but in general I am confident that the future is bright, left, female, and queer-friendly. I speak from the vantage point of someone watching the scene change over forty years of my politically-conscious life. How far we have come since 1985! And to those even older than me, how far must it be since Stonewall, since the 1950s...

Your tribe will never get us down. We don't depend on your good will. You may dynamite your entire society just to spite "the gays", and "the gays" will still be here. We are forever.

>223 LolaWalser:

Okay, that's probably true. But the trans issue is not just lumped in with "the gays".

LGBTQ

>220 TheToadRevoltof84: Why do you bother having these discussions? Your first paragraph basically dismisses any possibility of having a factual discussion. Then your second paragraph claims to have a factual discussion and ignores completely what I said, that I'm not talking about voting discrimination in the 21st century.

>226 prosfilaes:

What facts have you presented that you'd like me to address?

Migrants thanking Biden was because they heard loud and clear, storm the border. They intentionally reduced the border patrols ability to do their work. It's clear as day by the number of folks "seeking asylum" now.

If you break a law to get into a country and you're here illegally, you're not a citizen of the US. If you're identified as a member of a violent criminal organization, then you're a threat to the citizens of the nation and are lucky to get removed rather than treated as an invader or as one on an espionage mission/act of war.

Civil Rights legislation shouldn't need to exist at all. Color isn't in the Constitution, all are created equal. Maybe you think the legislation meant something, but it really doesn't and nobody is actually being kept away due to color.

>225 LolaWalser:

Yeah, you forgot the A++. That still doesn't make the issue the same. One is a personal, sexual matter, the other involves other people and their safety. It's just not the same issue.

I was sort of confused when trans became an issue. Growing up, I thought that there were a few people who had problems with their gender, had hormonal and surgical treatment, and then everyone accepted them as their new gender. It's a bit naive but I was a kid from a fairly conservative family. Also, armed with a complete Encyclopedia Britannica, I knew that biological gender was not a clear cut subject. The idea that the discussions aren't starting from that basis, that anyone would insist on "biological gender" on a driver's license is just weird.

>227 TheToadRevoltof84: For one But, the media (on both sides, granted) lies and twists most stories. So, I just don't believe this is a real problem. In fact, I know that stories are literally made up just to rile up each side. says don't bother me with the facts, my mind's made up.

If you break a law to get into a country and you're here illegally, you're not a citizen of the US.

Which is not relevant to the rights of due process under the Constitution; non-citizens still have such rights.

If you're identified as a member of a violent criminal organization, then you're a threat to the citizens of the nation

That depends on whether or not you were correctly identified, which a court of law verifies.

treated as an invader or as one on an espionage mission/act of war.

Except they aren't. The only reason anyone would treat them as such is as a loophole because the laws that Congress wrote actually dealing with immigrants doesn't permit the President to do what he wants.

(As a side note, you're writing such bizarre if/then statements. It is not true that "If you break a law to get into a country and you're here illegally, you're not a citizen of the US."; if you jump the border into Cuba, are arrested and break out of jail and get to the US, you're still a citizen of the US. If a sailor gets thrown into the brig on a Navy ship, escapes to Mexico, and then jumps the border to the US, they're still a citizen of the US. If you're a member of a violent criminal organization, you're a threat to the citizens of the nation. Or again, the people of the nation, which shows your fetishizing of citizens over humanity.)

Civil Rights legislation shouldn't need to exist at all.

3. Let's eliminate laws and borders so we can all live free? You have never actually read a history book. Seriously, read about Reconstruction and the rise of the KKK in the 1920s and the Civil Rights movement.

Color isn't in the Constitution, all are created equal.

The Fifteenth Amendment to the Constitution says:

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude—

Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

nobody is actually being kept away due to color.

So you claim. Somehow I don't find your unilateral assertion to be truth. We could look at studies: "the typical employer called back the presumably white applicants around 9% more than Black ones. That number rose to roughly 24% for the worst offenders.", but as you said, there's no evidence that you would believe isn't just made up.

>228 TheToadRevoltof84: One is a personal, sexual matter, the other involves other people and their safety.

How is changing a name on a driver's license a safety matter? How is insisting a man with a full beard and muscles use the lady's room and a woman with lady parts and breasts uses the men's room pro-safety? If safety wasn't a ruse here, then we'd focusing on safety aspects.

>227 TheToadRevoltof84: Holy shit, dude.

Just... read this and get back to me.
https://repository.law.uic.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1083&context=facp...

>228 TheToadRevoltof84: the other involves other people and their safety. It's just not the same issue.

Please explain how the safety of other people comes into this in your mind.

>231 davidgn: Dude, that's like thirty pages. There's no way the liar is going to get through all that, they can't even sit through a few minutes of Trump calling Nazis "fine people".

>230 prosfilaes:

You're not wrong on due process. But try that in any other country.
This article is a great summary, almost perfect. https://www.dailysignal.com/2025/04/30/due-process-illegals-is-deportation-abreg...

Also in the Constitution 'The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.'

Yes, but Civil Rights wouldn't have been passed by LBJ if the country wasn't already beginning to reject racism. LBJ was pure politics. The 15th amendment shouldn't need to exist either, but I suppose you burned me.

Do you know the reason for the callback rate? Fake study with fake names, seeking a specific result. You probably can find a better stat somewhere, that actually is made up.

>231 davidgn:

Well, it happened. Let me know how I should address this document. This is a long way from the start of the conversation.

I would say that, perhaps the 15th Amendment exists for the reasons of the paper. That does not, if you were trying to, change my mind about the current day, politically abused, non-issue of voter suppression.

>234 TheToadRevoltof84: You're not wrong on due process. But try that in any other country.

And that's part of the reason why people call us Ugly Americans, because of stupid American exceptionalism.

This article is a great summary, almost perfect. https://www.dailysignal.com/2025/04/30/due-process-illegals-is-deportation-abreg....

It's a perfect summary of how you distrust media until it confirms your biases.

Also in the Constitution 'The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.'

So you're obliterating the right to Habeas Corpus because people are crossing the border. Sounds like something a dictator would do, treat an everyday action that's happened for the entire history of the US as an "invasion" so they can get rid of basic rights.

Yes, but Civil Rights wouldn't have been passed by LBJ if the country wasn't already beginning to reject racism. LBJ was pure politics. The 15th amendment shouldn't need to exist either, but I suppose you burned me.

I don't even. 3. Let's eliminate laws and borders so we can all live free? You have never actually read a history book. That's your own words. Now you're acting like if you can pass a law, you shouldn't because obviously everyone agrees with that law.

Do you know the reason for the callback rate? Fake study with fake names, seeking a specific result. You probably can find a better stat somewhere, that actually is made up.

You dismiss anything that conflicts with your biases, and claimed to dismiss pretty much everything. So what good is a factual discussion with you?

The details of the study don't matter, because you wouldn't have accepted it. Any study of this type you would have said was "seeking a specific result", which seems a pretty common right-wing response to science; you can't do studies on guns or racism because it obviously means you're biased, and studying such things is just wrong.

>236 prosfilaes:

Okay.

I said the media makes up stories to rile everyone up. Well, that's an opinion piece. It sums up my feelings nicely.

If people are here that are causing/caused mischief and they're here illegally, they shouldn't be walking the streets. If you're to detain them people cry, if you ship them off they cry, if you take them to court, the courts stall and delay and make things impossible. I really don't have a problem if someone thinks they should be deported without a trial providing the research shows they're bad actors. The rate of return for a court date is pretty low. I am sorry, I guess I'm a bad person to not feel bad. But, the number of people that came in under the Biden surge is overwhelming and intentional.

You don't think this gang is dangerous enough to be considered a threat?

https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/07/19/ms-13-threatens-the-legitimacy-of-salvado...

https://www.dailysignal.com/2024/08/29/ms-13-gang-spree-was-booted-us-years-earl...

https://x.com/BillMelugin_/status/1918441505574015257

Those particular laws aren't important as they are all redundant.

It was a study designed to get a specific result. It also admits that clothing stores preferred females to males and I'm sure a pallet shop would likely flip. They should've applied to Harvard instead of Pepsi. This study was designed, intentionally to get the result and they hinged it all on a few of these many companies and the data doesn't even support it, in fact the whole list is so diverse that I lost track of how many of these companies actually preferred black to white. Thanks for pushing the issue though, now I know the study wasn't just ridiculous, but the paper is a complete fabrication. They often times took a 2% disparity and put a 10% adjusted disparity estimate into it. They even flipped a 1.5% favoritism into a 2.9% disparity. This presumes they don't stumble onto a black man, named, god-forbid, Joe.

The footnote reads:
Although the authors sent many fictional resumes to each firm, their experimental measures provide only noisy estimates of each firm’s contact discrimination. Because the authors sampled only a subset of each firm’s jobs, it is possible that some firms that showed large contact penalties for Black applicants due to chance rather than true systemic patterns. Their approach utilizes a new statistical methodology, developed by the authors in their working paper, that ensures the grades provide the most information about firm-level contact discrimination while limiting the potential for random chance to lead to mistaken conclusions.

*The adjusted disparity estimate represents the researchers’ best guess of each firm’s level of contact discrimination based on the experimental data after adjusting for statistical uncertainty.

>228 TheToadRevoltof84:

Yeah, you forgot the A++. That still doesn't make the issue the same. One is a personal, sexual matter, the other involves other people and their safety. It's just not the same issue.

Fine, it's nice that you insist on precise inclusivity (I tend to see the Q as a broad drawer accommodating many instances), we can go with LGBTQIA+ (not sure the second + is necessary?), or QUILTBAG.

As for it being different issues: no. Questions of gender and sexuality are inexorably intertwined. Homophobia and transphobia are both rooted in a fascistic insistence on traditional gender roles, the basic policing of humanity upon which have rested our politics, religion, social institutions etc. Moreover, many trans people are other-than-heterosexual.

>238 LolaWalser:

Thoughts on pedophilia? Is that the same?

>239 TheToadRevoltof84: Now what brings pedophilia to your mind? Or is it something that's just always on your mind for some reason? Is that another place where your views align with Trump, who publicly fantasized about having sex with his daughter, and nominated a pedophile for the Attorney General seat?

If you're troubled by thoughts that you know are wrong, there are people who can help you. You just have to reach out, and they really can help you control them before you do something you'll regret.

>240 kiparsky: For some unfathomable reason, there is a group of people that always equates a discussion of sexuality and sex between two or more consenting adults with sex or sexual fixation on prepubescent children who are both legally and developmentally incapable of consent. Any time a discussion of LGBTQIA+ arises, these individuals immediately jump to a totally unrelated, and quite disturbing, sexual disorder. In other words, they automatically equate consensual sex with nonconsensual rape - which, I believe, may say something very unflattering about this particular group.

>241 ljbryant: Unflattering, yes. Also, revealing.

>241 ljbryant:

Considering the term inexorably was used in the intertwining, I wanted to see the limitation. What about an individual that likes to grind on trees? How about if a dog let's it's owner perform sexual acts for a treat, consenting? If these are so strictly linked, where does the line stop? Yet you're appalled and oh my, this is just beyond the pale. I'm asking and your fake outrage can sit it out for a bit.

I'm not trying to link the two, I'm asking how many letters are inexorably linked to what was once just LGB.

>239 TheToadRevoltof84:

Thoughts on pedophilia? Is that the same?

The same as what? Sexual orientation? No. Paedophilia is a recognised pathology, often originating in sexual abuse in early childhood.

>243 TheToadRevoltof84:

How about if a dog let's it's owner perform sexual acts for a treat, consenting?

Consent is impossible to determine across species. Bestiality is widely recognised as a crime. I'm not up on the latest psychological takes on it, but I would guess someone sexually fixated on animals has a problem or two.

Now, YOU may want to sleep with dogs, for all I know (after all, you ARE asking us not to "fake outrage" over it). But what makes you think the issue is relevant for QUILTBAG people?

>243 TheToadRevoltof84: Considering the term inexorably was used in the intertwining, I wanted to see the limitation

This is an interesting sentence. Is it supposed to mean something? It reads like it was translated, perhaps from the Spanish, and not skillfully.

>244 LolaWalser:

Other identities were also linked in the past to disorders. So, there is a limit to the letters and you would also agree that sexuality isn't necessarily healthily connected to all forms or identities.

>246 kiparsky:

Sorry.

>243 TheToadRevoltof84: Meh. I'm not outraged. I actually find it predictably amusing, if also sad. Social conservatives and Republicans always jump from LGBTQIA+ (and especially male homosexuality) directly to pedophilia. It's a knee-jerk reaction. If you're gay, you MUST be a pedophile.

As far as trees -- I have no opinion. Whatever floats your splintery boat. The tree may not be able to consent, but, as long as you don't use a hatchet or saw to create an appropriate opening, it also won't care. You be you.

Animals are in the same class as children - there is no way for them to truly give consent. Just like children, of course they could be trained to equate sex with love, treats, whatever, but it's not a consensual relationship - it's grooming and gaslighting. And, yet again, you've demonstrated the truism - a discussion of anything other than cis-hetero sexuality with a social conservative always jumps to rape of some sort. It's a fascinating mental illness.

>247 TheToadRevoltof84:

Other identities were also linked in the past to disorders. So, there is a limit to the letters and you would also agree that sexuality isn't necessarily healthily connected to all forms or identities.

"In the past" -- in fact, you are very much lacking a historical perspective on these issues. Historically, children were (and still are) widely sexually abused, mostly by cis-men. From ritualistic, "initiation" habits of ancient cultures, free-for-all exploitation of child slaves and prostitutes, religiously and/or culturally justified child (usually meaning "girl") marriages, rampant child prostitution (from China to England a trade openly flourishing as recently as the late 19th century), to the addle-brained ideas about child "liberation" in sexual matters still promoted by some in the 1970s, the story of paedophilia follows a diametrically opposite direction to that of sexual orientation and gender identity: from acceptance to recognition that child-adult sex is wrong, deeply damaging to the child, and consequently increasingly criminalised. Adults who are fixated on children as sexual partners are seen as sick.

In contrast to this, homosexuality, bisexuality, pansexuality, asexuality have gone from proscription and/or pathologisation to recognition as normal variations of human sexuality. We don't know the genetics involved, but then we don't know the genetics involved in creating a heterosexual either.

>249 ljbryant:

Progressive bigotry is boring and you shouldn't pretend to be so pleased with yourself.

>250 LolaWalser:

Yes, sexual deviations often expand before a civilization falls into complete shambles.

>251 TheToadRevoltof84: I'm not pretending. I'm very pleased with myself for not having to worry about splinters in very painful places. Not that it's a real struggle not to attempt to create seedlings with various plant life, but, still, for some it seems to be quite an accomplishment. But, as I said, you be you.

I haven't followed the various discussions/debates about 'fascism' on Pro & Con. Can someone who has, please direct me to
where the term 'fascism' and 'fascist' has been defined or discussed? (Assuming it has been.) Thanks!

>252 TheToadRevoltof84: I think you may be missing the point, liar. The assumption that straight sex is the only acceptable kind is a deviation, and the assumption that gender is rigidly assigned based on genitalia is another.

We should distinguish between sexual orientation and kinks. Homosexuality, heterosexuality and bisexuality are orientations, they're about who you prefer to have sex with. Kinks are about how you prefer to have sex, this can include stuff like BDSM or other sorts of role-play, it can be about location, or whatever. It might be tempting to see a predilection for sex with minors as an orientation, since it's superficially about who you prefer to have sex with, but it's generally seen as a kink, since it's tied to fetishes about power and control.

Transsexuality is outside of these axes, it's not about sex at all but rather about gender.

A person's sexual behavior is in general their business, and not the concern of any other person, unless that behavior violates someone else's rights or their person. If two people want to have sex with each other in a particular sort of way, that's their business and not yours unless they're doing it in a place where you have a right to expect that others will not be having sex, in which case you have a reasonable grounds to object. If one person imposes their sexual desires on another person without that person's consent, that's an ethical violation that everyone has a right to object to. So, if Donald Trump pays Stormy Daniels or Karen McDougall for a sexual enounter because he can only get off if he's paying for it, and they're fine with this transaction, that's between them. But when Donald Trump rapes Jean Caroll in a department store, that's an ethical violation. And when Donald Trump fantasizes about having sex with his daughter, that's not an ethical problem in itself - verbal behavior is covered by free speech - though she might find it as deeply disturbing as the rest of us do.

It's a bit alarming that I have to explain all this to you. Were you not aware of sex before?

>254 Doug1943: If you're not sure what fascism means, consult a dictionary.

>254 Doug1943: >256 kiparsky: or Eco. https://www.openculture.com/2024/11/umberto-ecos-list-of-the-14-common-features-...

>252 TheToadRevoltof84:

Yes, sexual deviations often expand before a civilization falls into complete shambles.

What you derisively call "sexual deviations" and decent people call "sexual orientations", plus gender identities, didn't suddenly "expand", we just became more precise in describing them. Other-than-heterosexual sexual orientations, and gender identities noncomforming to the rigid, decided-at-birth female-male binary model, have been known to humankind likely since humankind existed -- at any rate, regarding written records, as early as any records of heterosexuality.

And fwiw, if there's any civilization worth protecting on this planet, it's endangered by capitalist greed and the insane chase of profit over people's welfare and that of every other living species. Worry about global warming and the daily catastrophe of the loss of biodiversity, not the tiny percentage of trans people simply seeking to live.

>255 kiparsky:

Kip, you're not very nice, you still owe me an apology for your hoax...and I'm awaiting the nicely mailed peanut butter pie. I didn't read your entire post yet, but I'm sure you've packed it with all kinds of silliness and haughty progressive bigotry.

>254 Doug1943:

Fascism = disagreement with progressive opinion.

>259 TheToadRevoltof84: I've never claimed to be very nice, but at least I'm not a lying sack of shit.

>258 LolaWalser:

There's a lot of truth in what you say. We just see different solutions. You probably think freedom comes when folks can live how they want, and I believe that will make them slaves.

Congrats to citizens of Canada and Australia!
Not following the USA down the Trumpy rabbit hole was a wise decision. They luckily had their elections occur at the end of Trump's 100-day fiasco.

>262 TheToadRevoltof84: You probably think freedom comes when folks can live how they want, and I believe that will make them slaves.

That's classic doublespeak. 1984 literally says "Freedom is slavery." You can argue that there are more important things than freedom, but being able to do what you want doesn't make you slaves. Frankly, from what I've seen, gay marriage is a stabilizing force in society, and biological essentialism is hindering our way to figuring out how we should live in a world with good birth control with a narrow set of jobs that actually need physical strength.

Freedom is something we trade away. You can't sell mercury as a kid's toy, no matter how fun it is, because it's seriously dangerous. That's a step away from absolute freedom. There are a lot more steps away from absolute freedom that we make. But it comes down so differently when the Right wants nigh-unlimited commercial freedom but the right for people to live their lives needs to be meddled with. It was said that Justice Rehnquist only voted for free speech when it came to commercial speech, and that except for abortion.

>262 TheToadRevoltof84: You probably think freedom comes when folks can live how they want, and I believe that will make them slaves

That's a trite soundbite but what do you actually mean? How and why exactly do you believe freedom will make people slaves?

And as >264 prosfilaes: says, there has never been absolute freedom - it is always tempered by responsibility not to override the freedom of others. Even in the First Amendment obsessed USA you are not free to shout "fire" in a crowded cinema nor "bomb" at an airport, nor increasingly to shout "Human rights for Palestinians!" on university campuses. The freedom to go out and murder people at random is proscribed in most countries.

>250 LolaWalser: and >257 davidgn:

Thanks for these two helpful posts.

Lola, thanks for providing this historical overview. History can be viewed through many lenses, and this is an oft-neglected one, which I had not seen so clearly and concisely articulated before.

David, like many of us I have a a sense of what Fascism is, particularly as Fascist regimes in Portugal, Spain, Greece, Chile, etc occurred during my lifetime, and the ones in Germany and Italy were still very much part of public consciousness when I was growing up. But it's helpful and thought-provoking to have it summed up like this.

>264 prosfilaes:
>265 John5918:

As Atheists, I wouldn't expect you to believe this. My Libertarian side concurs with a freedom of choice. However, you don't believe sexuality is a choice.

You should be careful about how you present my statement, I've seen how Progressive types create hoaxes.

>267 TheToadRevoltof84:

As Atheists, I wouldn't expect you to believe this. My Libertarian side concurs with a freedom of choice. However, you don't believe sexuality is a choice.

Can you explain? If your Libertarianism agrees with freedom of choice, does that mean you would be OK with variant sexualities if they were chosen? If the answer is yes (please correct me if not, I'm just following the logic of your claim at the moment), wouldn't it make all the more sense to accept variant sexualities if they were completely innate? What difference does it make to you?

>268 LolaWalser: The lying sack of shit is trying to hold on to their claim to being a "libertarian" despite their blind and total allegiance to an authoritarian ruler and consequent support of authoritarian policies.

I'm sure they'll say something, but I wouldn't could on it making sense, at least until they sort out the contradictions between their self-image and their beliefs. What I think they're going to try to do is something they'll think is very clever: they're going to say that because you and I believe that a person's sexual orientation is not a choice they made, that therefore if they agree with us on that then their support of homophobic and transphobic policies is somehow not a contradiction of their libertarian self-image. I know, it's mental, but you can see them trying to set that up.

Did I get it right, liar?

>268 LolaWalser:

The notion that the expression itself is freedom but then admitting it wasn't a choice is a dichotomy of some sort, don't you think?

Nailed it.

>269 kiparsky:

Not quite. But I just can't quite fathom whom you could be attempting to address, can't be me, your dear friend, with such an awful label as liar?

>271 kiparsky:

Close, only I believe the choice should be available, just like eating too much or buying too much, or getting off on toe sucking or putting motor oil in your hair or drinking too much...

"Libertarians are like house cats: completely dependent on a system they do not understand nor appreciate."

And there are precious few of them anyway. Most are just far right extremists that what to cloak under a benign label.

>274 Cardboard_killer: I used to think that was a libertarian until I talked to someone who really believed that it would be a good idea for everyone to hire their own police force

I asked about 'fascism' because, like almost all words, certainly those associated with politics, it means different things to different people. For many people on the Left, it seems to mean a regime, or a movement, with little concern for the rule of law, and a big emphasis on patriotism.

However, I believe that if this definition is used, it covers too broad a canvas. I think it's more useful, analytically, to confine its use to movements which are indeed strongly patriotic/nationalist (there is no clear distinction between the two ideas, in my opinion), aiming at a one-party state, willing to use violence in pursuit of its aims, and ... critically ... presenting itself as having a political program which includes many things taken from parties which have been seen, traditionally, as on the Left.

There were far right authoritarian political movements before WWI, but they were almost all 'traditionalist', championing King, Church and Army. But the Russian Revolution changed everything, on both the Left and the Right. For the Left, it made the idea of relying on the 'democratic process' seem naive ... for the Right, it taught the necessity of appealing to the newly-emerging urban proletariat.

By 'strongly patriotic/nationalist' I mean explicitly denigrating other nations/races. (This distinction is necessary to rule out apply the word 'fascist' to the Chinese Communist Party, and other Third World Communist Parties, which, although strongly nationalist, and totalitarian in their aims, are officially committed to the internationalism which is a key component of Marxist ideology, however much they ignore it in practice.

This is not a perfect definition -- "Grey is all theory, and ever-green the tree of life."

So, to the unpleasant Mr Trump, who cares little for the rule of law (a key component of traditional conservatism). If he had organized a nationwide network of paramilitary groups, which attacked progressive meetings -- like Mussolini's squadristi or Hitlers Sturmabteilung -- and if he had explicitly called for the end of multi-party democracy, then it would be accurate to call him a 'fascist'. (He is also skeptical about America's involvement in wars abroad, but this is due only to recent painful experience, not to principled conviction.)

It is a fortunate accident of history that Trump is not well-educated in political history, nor really very charismatic. Compare his 'speeches' with those of Mussolini or Hitler, who were both gifted orators. (Nonetheless, he commands the devotion of millions, because he is self-evidently not part of the bi-partisan elite, and his rejection of Political Correctness is utterly sincere.)

He is certainly no committed small-d democrat. But the United States has seen much worse political repression against the Left under previous regimes -- namely that of Democrat Truman and Republican Eisenhower. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism (The legislature of my own home state of Texas considered -- but did not pass -- a law which would have made mere membership of the Communist Party punishable by death.)

The rule of law, and the associated concept of Free Speech, is in fact not widely popular. It has to be upheld by society's elites.

Anyone who spends time on right-wing social media sites will quickly find frequent calls for prosecuting liberal politicians for 'treason', simply because of their political beliefs. And of course Anti-Fa rejects the idea of freedom of speech for people on the Right, as, evidently do most American college students. This doesn't automatically mean we should apply the label 'fascist' to them, but it is something they have in common with fascists, and not with small-d democrats.

The concepts of the Rule of Law, and Freedom of Speech, are precious conquests of humanity, only achieved after a long, painful, frequently-interrupted trek up from savagery, and only rooted -- sometimes rather shallowly -- in the West.

Everyone, regardless of whether they think of themselves on the Right or the Left, should defend them.

When not used by college professors, the word fascist when used by someone on the left means much the same thing as the word socialist when used by someone on the right, that is that they don't like the person they're referring to.

>277 jjwilson61: Yes, although I think the real curseword used by rightwingers for anyone on the Left is 'communist'.

The ignorance of political people, both Right and Left, about fascism is very great. How often has someone told me, "Hitler was democratically elected." (Not true. In the last free election the German people were allowed to have before Hitler took over, the Nazi vote declined, to about 30%. The really hardline anti-Nazis, the Socialist and Communist Parties, between them took about 37% of the vote.)

And had the Communists been following a sane strategy, the Nazis may well have been kept out of power. But at the time, Stalin had all the world Communist parties following a crazy ultra-left line, seeing the Socialists as the main enemy. (They called Socialists 'social fascists'.) Stalin changed the line a year or so later -- the Popular Front, to unite all democratic forces against fascism -- but by then it was too late for Germany.

>277 jjwilson61: It's easy to say that, but the thing you have to keep in mind is that in both cases, the charge is usually true. In the case of a right-winger who calls a leftist a socialist, they don't mean it to be true, they think they're just calling names, but the odds are pretty good that the person they're talking about actually does identify as a socialist, and the odds are even better that they actually are a socialist. (If you like public libraries and fire departments and police departments and roads and schools and stuff like that, you're a socialist and you might as well get used to it. And let's not forget "keep your government hands off my medicare!") On the other hand, anyone who supports the current regime is a supporter of a regime that is, if you take them at their word, leaning further towards straight-up fascism every day. We can remember that this president thought that Nazis and white supremacists were "very fine people" (or else he was too demented to know what he was saying, if you prefer that explanation), so this is not new. We obviously remember that this president called for and got an insurrection in an attempt to prevent a peaceful transfer of power, which is pretty fascist. We can also remember that he's consistently refused to commit to accepting the results of an election if he doesn't like them, or to accept that the constitution applies to him as far as the two-term limit on the presidency. And of course, he's doing the classic Nazi thing of arresting law-abiding people and shipping them off to unknown locations for unknown terms without charges, trial, representation, or any known law allowing him to do any of this.

So, yeah, people call left-wingers "socialist" and they're right. And people call Maggats "fascist" and if those people are going along with the current regime, "fascist" is not a wrong thing to call them. What this regime is doing is pretty much playbook fascist. Twenty years ago, when people called Bush Jr. and his henches "fascist" I laughed at them. I'm not laughing now.

Today, the word 'socialist' just means, in practice, 'progressive' or 'liberal'. That is, someone who accepts the existence of capitalism -- most productive property is privately owned -- but wants to see income transfer from the better-off to the worse-off.

Since 'socialism' in its historic meaning -- public ownership of the means of production and distribution -- is a dead duck, this is not too confusing.

But if the word 'fascist' is to be extended to include anyone (in the US) who supported Donald Trump, who opposes effectively unlimited Third World immigration, who doesn't like 'DEI' -- then we lose an important distinction. What should we call people who consciously aim for an effectively one-party state, with leftist organizations outlawed, all non-whites made second-class citizens (at best), and all this enforced by armed and organized para-military groups? 'Ultra-fascists'?

This promiscuous use of the word 'fascist' is actually advantageous to real fascists. It erases the distinction between them, and others 'on the Right', making the transition from conservatism/patriotism to fascism easier psychologically.

It also creates some strange historic anomalies. If you want an example of real anti-fascists, look to the boys crawling up the beaches at Normandy on June 6th 1944 under German machine-gun fire. But if you had done a census of the political and social attitudes of these young, white, working-class men -- well, you would not have found many anti-racists, pro-transgenders, open border advocates or feminists. By the current terminology of the Left, it would have been fascists fighting fascists.

>280 Doug1943: 'socialism' in its historic meaning -- public ownership of the means of production and distribution -- is a dead duck

Maybe in the USA, but in many parts of the world public ownership at least of certain key utilities is anything but a dead duck. The UK is currently in the process of taking railways back into public ownership afer the ill-fated capitalist experiment of privatising this essential public service. In many European and other countries health and education are under public ownership.

As for young men who fought either out of a sense of patriotism when their country was at war or simply because they had been conscripted, their individual political beliefs are probably not very relevant, and the US army would have included people of many different political beliefs.

Sure, in probably every country in the world, including the US, state ownership of some things is taken for granted. If that's all that was meant by 'socialism', then all countries are/were socialist, including Nazi Germany.

On the Right, some state ownership is accepted, except among our equivalent of the Marxists on the Left, the Libertarians. Both of them are gripped by Ideology.

Yes, the fact that many, probably almost all, WWII American infantrymen would be called 'racists', 'homophobes', 'transphobes' and therefore 'fascists' today, was not relevant to the fact that they helped destroy real fascism and to defend real democracy.

It's something the Old Left understood: formal beliefs and attitudes, and the willingness to struggle for things the Left wanted, like trade unions, could be in contradiction. But today's Left has nothing but contempt for the real working class, or at least its white male part.

>281 John5918: Not even in the USA. Don't know what >280 Doug1943: is thinking, but they don't know much about socialism and probably don't need to be running their mouth until they do a bit of reading. (No offense, dude, but I'm tired of being nice about ignorance. Go learn something, then come and talk)

>280 Doug1943: But if the word 'fascist' is to be extended to include anyone (in the US) who supported Donald Trump

I wouldn't think it very controversial to say that someone who supports a fascist regime is a fascist. What is your problem with that proposition?

What should we call people who consciously aim for an effectively one-party state, with leftist organizations outlawed, all non-whites made second-class citizens (at best), and all this enforced by armed and organized para-military groups? 'Ultra-fascists'?

How about "the Trump administration"?

As for your blithering about D-Day - again, go do some reading. You have literally no idea what you're taking about and I'm not here to educate you. Go learn some history. You're just embarrassing.

There must be some word for a screed which illustrates what it's trying to argue against.

So, I claim that Marx and Engels believed that the capitalist class had enormously expanded the productive forces -- and that they saw this as a good thing. I didn't mention it, but I claim that they also gave it credit for drawing barbarian nations into civilization, by making them dependent on civilized countries.

Surely that should trigger ignorant Lefties? And if that doesn't do it, what about if they read Marx calling someone he didn't like a "Jewish n----r"? Immediate cancellation, I would think, not that these people read Marx (or much of anything) in the first place.

But ... maybe I'm making this up? Maybe Marx and Engels were like the politically-correct virtue-signallers of today? If so, then say so. Just assert, "Marx/Engels never said anything like that!"

Same for the attitudes of the boys at Normandy. Were they just premature Anti-Fascists (to steal a term from that era)? Wishing that they had women playing equal roles to men, wishing that their units weren't racially segregated? If so, say so. Catch me out! Try to make me document those assertions, which, if they're false, I won't be able to do! Then ... another victory for the Left!

>278 Doug1943: The ignorance of political people, both Right and Left, about fascism is very great. How often has someone told me, "Hitler was democratically elected." (Not true. In the last free election the German people were allowed to have before Hitler took over, the Nazi vote declined, to about 30%. The really hardline anti-Nazis, the Socialist and Communist Parties, between them took about 37% of the vote.)

That's not really about fascism; that's about Hitler, one manifestation thereof. In the democratic system that Weimar Germany had, he was placed into power legally. Be careful with your terms; was Trump, who lost the vote 46% to 48%, democratically elected? I'm sure I could find an UK Parliament, where the winning government got the largest number of seats without the largest number of votes.

>280 Doug1943: But if the word 'fascist' is to be extended to include anyone (in the US) who supported Donald Trump, who opposes effectively unlimited Third World immigration, who doesn't like 'DEI' -- then we lose an important distinction. What should we call people who consciously aim for an effectively one-party state, with leftist organizations outlawed, all non-whites made second-class citizens (at best), and all this enforced by armed and organized para-military groups?

Those don't seem to be the defining principles of fascism. In any case, claiming that other party's victories are invalid and trying to overturn a election they lost, without any evidence or reason*, seems a good start towards a one-party state. Use of legal power against Harvard and lawyers that supported leftist clients and swimming competitions that include transwomen seems a real step towards outlawing leftist organizations. And ICE, which doesn't wear uniforms and covers up identity when snatching people off the streets, backed at times by the literal military.

* Biden underperformed his polls by about 3%, and as 538 pointed out on the eve of the election, still won with that underperformance. That feels normal, not rigged.

There's arguments about the word fascism, but there's reasons the word "fascism" is coming up: the delegitimizing of political opponents and elections, the use of law against opponents and for partisans (a practice notably engaged by Mussolini), etc.

If you want an example of real anti-fascists, look to the boys crawling up the beaches at Normandy on June 6th 1944 under German machine-gun fire.

You mean people who often believed that all non-whites were second-class citizens (at best)? Commanded by men who were in the KKK (as about 10% of male population was in 1925, and thus likely the commanding officers in WWII), a paramilitary organization that believed all non-whites were second-class and helped keep the South a one-party state?

>282 Doug1943: Yes, the fact that many, probably almost all, WWII American infantrymen would be called 'racists', 'homophobes', 'transphobes' and therefore 'fascists' today

How about trying to judge people through the lens of their time? There's different cultural context for their attitudes then there is for ours. Especially as a racist homophobic transphobe would have no particular attachment to one party in 1945, but would in 2025. They can either accept losing democratically and hope attitudes will turn, or adopt non-democratic methods.

Note that in 1984, Reagan beat Mondale 66-34 among white people, and 2012, Romney beat Obama 59-39 among white people, and yet Reagan was a 59-41 crushing victory, and Romney was 47-51 defeat. Groups that use to hold power are often engage in anti-democratic behavior when they can no longer rely on the vote to keep them in power.

was not relevant to the fact that they helped destroy real fascism and to defend real democracy.

They helped destroy Nazi German and Fascist Italy. They left Franco's Spain alone, and watched the end of democracy in Eastern Europe. And they helped defend the type of democracy in the American South where much of the population couldn't vote. And many of the long-term military had participated in anti-democratic wars or would participate in anti-democratic wars, propping up colonial governments or pro-Western warlords.

>284 Doug1943: So, if you were to take my suggestion and do some reading before you do more talking, you might learn that Marx and Engels piggybacked off socialism to define communism, and that they're different things. (Some communists, noting that socialism is popular and communism is not, try to obscure the difference, but we can file that under "whatever") Meaning that arguments about what Marx and Engels believed in the 19th century doesn't really tell you much about what socialists believe in the 21st century.

But since you're going there, you're saying that Marx and Engels viewed capitalism as a stepping-stone on a sort of ladder of social evolution. Going a bit further, my understanding is that they claimed that once a society has benefited from capitalism, it must then necessarily further evolve, as the night follows the day, past capitalism to some sort of workers' paradise.

The socialist position is a little different. Socialists, as I understand it, see capitalism as a useful tool for some purposes but not something which cannot be relied on to provide a distribution of goods suitable for a just society. Investment of capital for returns of capital is a good way to fund some enterprises, but it can't provide the necessities of life. It can't provide food for the hungry, medical care for the sick, roads for the traveler, fire protection for the good of all, etc, etc.

So socialists - I'm using the Nordic model here - say it's fine to use capital to develop capital, but a functioning society needs to socialize some aspects of the economy in order to function without, for example, turning a city like San Francisco into a ghost town (as capitalism did in the first decade of this century) or creating a vast class of criminalized people, etc, no need to list all of the well-known disasters which result from the American model.

Really, you should read more. Especially if you're going to post here, of all places.

Yes, you're right. "Democratically elected" can mean, "elected by a majority", or, "put into power by the rules of a democratic state", which can result in parties without a popular majority getting into power. (As you know, this is not uncommon in both the US and UK, due to the American 'Electoral College' and British 'first past the post' systems.)

When people claim that "Hitler was democratically elected" -- a phrase I've heard many times -- I don't think they're criticizing the technicalities of dealing with a situation where no party wins 50%+1 or more of the vote. They're claiming that Hitler had the support of a majority of Germans, which may have been true after he had held power for awhile, but was definitely not true at the last election he stood in.

Yes, 'lawfare' is a tactic engaged in by fascists. Also by both Left and Right in the US, (and in the UK, where supporters of a pro-Palestinian group, two of whose members got into an air base and spray-painted an airplane, are being legally designated as 'supporters of terrorism'.)

As I said, attempts at non-legal mass deportations are over a century old in the US. And, yes, many of the people who destroyed German fascists had lots of unpleasant views, some of which they shared with the Nazis they defeated. Does it then mean that American fascists were fighting German fascists?

I think you're arguing that anything that is counter to liberal democracy should be called 'fascist'. I'm arguing that we should reserve that word for a certain type of opposition to liberal democracy. So that, for instance, wanting a one-party state which would necessarily see mass concentration camps and the destruction of the rule of law is certainly one aspect of fascism. But if adhering to those particular views makes one a 'fascist', then American Communists were fascists.

Fascists don't believe in free speech for the people they disagree with, and try to break up their public meetings. But if anyone who does this is 'fascist', then so is AntiFa, and a large number of American college students.

Also, re. Franco's Spain and American support for death-squad regimes in Latin America. All true. But that doesn't mean that we should apply the term 'fascism' to America. It means that America (its rulers) were willing to ally with unpleasant, anti-democratic regimes. If being willing to ally with fascists makes you a fascist, then Joseph Stalin was a fascist. And when America allied with Stalin, then we were fascists. (But apparently we already were, since the white males killing Nazis were not Politically Correct Lefties.)

At this point, words lose all meaning.

>287 Doug1943: When people claim that "Hitler was democratically elected" -- a phrase I've heard many times -- I don't think they're criticizing the technicalities of dealing with a situation where no party wins 50%+1 or more of the vote. They're claiming that Hitler had the support of a majority of Germans, which may have been true after he had held power for awhile, but was definitely not true at the last election he stood in.

So you agree that "democratically elected" does not mean "has the support of the majority", but you claim that when people say that, that's what they mean. That seems unproductive for a discussion.

Yes, 'lawfare' is a tactic engaged in by fascists. Also by both Left and Right in the US

Blind equivalence. Right now, Trump pardoned all the people at the Capitol invasion and is suing Harvard, and Texas is suing a women's swimming competition for having transwomen swimmers as "consumer fraud". There's one side here that's clearly abusing laws to help their side.

The UK example is a different magnitude; it's using a law legally passed, largely in the way it was imagined being used. They weren't targeted for their legal activities and to the extent they were, it was by laws passed by Parliament.

attempts at non-legal mass deportations are over a century old in the US.

Yes, and that tends to be fascism-adjacent; it's racist nationalism often with the help of paramilitary groups.

I think you're arguing that anything that is counter to liberal democracy should be called 'fascist'.

Strawmanning my position doesn't help your case. I took what you effectively gave as the definition of 'fascist', "people who consciously aim for an effectively one-party state, with leftist organizations outlawed, all non-whites made second-class citizens (at best), and all this enforced by armed and organized para-military groups", and argued that this behavior is typical of the president and a lot of his team. This definition clearly does not fit the left.

I don't have a clear definition of fascism myself. There was an article where a professor showed off a Benito system and measured Trump's fascism off that scale, but I can't find it now. It was nice and concrete, at least; Trump beat Mussolini on the racism part, but failed completely to match the emphasis on healthy male youth that Italian and German fascism had.

was not relevant to the fact that they helped destroy real fascism and to defend real democracy.
Also, re. Franco's Spain and American support for death-squad regimes in Latin America. All true. But that doesn't mean that we should apply the term 'fascism' to America.

I didn't say we should apply the term fascism to America. What I did say was that your hagiography, your simplification to "real fascism" and "real democracy" wasn't going to fly.

I'm arguing that we should reserve that word for a certain type of opposition to liberal democracy.

Ever heard of a motte and bailey argument? I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The discussion around it comes down to what type of opposition and how well Trump and co fits that type. I find this a bit of definitional game; you don't want the left to have a term to use to criticize the right's opposition to liberal democracy. On the other hand, you don't care about the fine details of Italian fascism and how it started becoming antisemitic and more fine grained racist only under the influence of the Nazis, or at all about the Vaps Movement or the Lapua Movement or the Austrian Fatherland Front.

It's provoking me to argue, but it doesn't seem like an interesting or productive argument.

>288 prosfilaes: There was an article where a professor showed off a Benito system and measured Trump's fascism off that scale

Is Trumpism a form of fascism? Two historians debate (Le Monde)

Marc Lazar, a specialist in Benito Mussolini's Italy, believes the American president is establishing an illiberal democracy rather than true fascism. Conversely, Olivier Burtin a historian of the United States, argues that the similarities between Trump's politics and fascism are more significant than the differences...

‘Trump is advancing a 21st-century US variant of fascism, backed by a white nationalist ideology’ (Civicus)

The USA is experiencing what can only be described as a technocratic coup, rooted in far-right authoritarian ideology. The Trump administration is using every tool at its disposal, even if that means ignoring and breaking laws. The goal is speed: to use technology, claims of waste and abuse, combined with actions that dismantle institutions and attack individuals and organisations. The Trump administration has adopted a typical authoritarian playbook... As with all forms of fascism, there must be a scapegoat, and here, it’s migrants and transgender people...

How Trump’s rhetoric compares to historic fascist language (PBS)

one of many occasions that the Trump campaign has chosen to allow comparisons to be made to the Nazis. So that was Madison Square Garden, which was the site of a rally by American Nazis in 1939, talking about polluting the blood, speaking of Americans as an enemy within. This is all straight from fascism. In fact, fascism — the core of fascism in Italy and Germany were combatants who followed their leader to bring the war home and turned their force against their own people. And when Donald Trump was talking about America as an occupied country and he was going to liberate it and also in the past talking about using the military on Americans, this comes out of fascism and also the tradition of military dictatorships like Pinochet in Chile...

Is Donald Trump a fascist? An assessment from an expert in our Department of History (Durham University)

Helpfully, Kelly also provided a surprisingly rigorous definition of fascism, a term famously flexible as both a political concept and a political insult. He described it as “a far-right authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement characterised by a dictatorial leader, centralised autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy”. This is remarkably close to widely accepted historical definitions of the political tendency that arose with the foundation of Italy’s fascist movement in 1919 and spread across interwar Europe. Federico Finchelstein, professor of history at the New School for Social Research, has summed it up as “a political ideology that encompassed totalitarianism, state terrorism, imperialism, racism, and, in Germany’s case … the Holocaust”... populism can turn into fascism when it resorts to the practices of identifying and persecuting internal enemies... Trump would act as fully-fledged fascist if he could. The question is: will the American people let him do so? He has, in fact, enacted fascist-lite policies to the extent that his power allowed...

Comparing Trump to fascists (King's College London)

Trump's dangerous metaphorical language is invidious and the ‘othering’ of groups such as political opponents, including the whole spectrum of left-wing politics, is a sign of his own authoritarianism. Through his public discourse he is cooking up an existential threat. He wants the voters to feel uncertain and fearful, that the temperature is rising and only a political strongman can 'douse the flames'... Trump’s dehumanising language clearly echoes Fascist speech... Kelly and Harris have done the right thing in calling out his nascent fascism... Words matter. What is happening in America is terrifying for many that fear a rise in fascism, but this is not a unique phenomenon. Across Europe populist leaders including Marine Le Pen in France and André Ventura in Portugal have made similar comments, and their inflammatory language offers a model for the Reform UK party. It takes guts to stand up to the toxicity of fascist worldviews...

>289 John5918:

Thanks, John!

Very interesting replies, and politically literate as well. I haven't been on LibraryThing for a while, and stopped taking part because I wasn't learning anything. But in this discussion, and another where a well-read Marxist is a contributor, I have.

Let me try to sum up: most progressives believe that "Trumpism", to coin a term, is effectively a form of fascism. That is, to use the term 'fascist' to describe the Trump movement clarifies rather than obscures. We haven't discussed other countries, but I believe many progressives would say the same about analogous movements in Europe -- for instance, ReformUK led by Nigel Farage. Full disclosure: I'm an American living in the UK and an active member of Reform.

I don't believe that is the case. Of course, there are similarities -- common concerns -- between what I would call 'fascist' movements, and the current rightwing revolts against the Establishment (both liberal and conservative). But so were there similarities -- common concerns -- between the pro-Stalin Communist movement on the one hand, and liberals, progressives, social democrats, democratic socialists, on the other.

Just for the record: I do NOT believe Trump is a believer in liberal democracy, or the rule of law. (I don't believe he has any ideological beliefs at all. ) I'm sorry that someone of his character came to head the American version of the widespread revolt against globalization. But I reserve the word 'fascism' for a different phenomenon, one which, so far, has only a miniscule presence in the US.

If I were to use the word 'fascist' to describe all people who go outside the bounds of liberal democracy to advance their political views, the first group I would call 'fascist' would be AntiFa.

>291 Doug1943: most progressives believe that "Trumpism", to coin a term, is effectively a form of fascism.

Not only most progressives, most scholars of fascism agree on this. And to be precise, this is not because we think Trump is a big doody-head or because he has bad hair or whatever it might be. It's because of the actions that he and his administration have taken, which have been detailed here and elsewhere.

What you're hearing is nothing more complicated than the premise that fascists are defined by their actions, and that Trump's actions define him as a fascist.

But I reserve the word 'fascism' for a different phenomenon, one which, so far, has only a miniscule presence in the US.
Can you say what this "different phenomenon" is, or provide your working definition of "fascism"?

>291 Doug1943: All of which seem very vague. We can name fascist aspects of Trump; for example, the Durham University article from October 2024 says:

According to Evans, Trump doesn’t display the classic fascist hunger for conquest and expansionist violence,

Except when he got into office in 2025, he has starting making demands on Canada and Greenland and the Panama Canal, so now he clearly does display that.

Again, ultranationalist, check. Militarism, check. Forcible suppression of opposition, check.

If I were to use the word 'fascist' to describe all people who go outside the bounds of liberal democracy to advance their political views, the first group I would call 'fascist' would be AntiFa.

What is this supposed to advance? If you were swinging fascism as a slur, you would sling it at AntiFa. Are they ultranationists? No. Racists. No. Fans of centralised autocracy? No. Does fascism fit them at all? No.

Words don't work like that. It doesn't do any good to complain that people are using words wrong since words are defined by the people using them. You can try for clarity by saying something like "classic fascism" but just arguing that people are using words wrong is boring and not likely to get positive results.

>294 jjwilson61: Ah, yes, the post-meaning society. Doesn't matter what you say, you get to be right, because we don't judge people for not knowing what they're talking about.

Words still have meaning. We're still having a conversation aren't we. But the meaning of fascist has changed in colloquial use since at least the sixties. Get with the times

>296 jjwilson61: In the current colloquial usage, "fascist" just means someone whose politics you don't like. I'll stick with actual words that have meaning.

>296 jjwilson61: I'm not sure the meaning of fascist has changed. It still has a core political meaning, and still has a derogatory meaning--one which Doug1943 would happily ignore, seeing even colloquial fascists are pro-strong government. But the context of adults trying to have a real connection across political lines, I think trying to use fascism as an actual word instead of just a slur is much more productive.

Trump’s 7 most authoritarian moves so far (CNN)

Trump has for years made no secret of his disregard for the limits of his power, and he’s governing accordingly... 1. Putting military on US soil... 2. Tariffs... 3. Investigations of his opponents... 4. MAGA-fying the government’s independent functions... 5. His coercion of the media, universities and law firms... 6. Ignoring Congress/TikTok... 7. Skirting due process and the rule of law on deportations...

>299 John5918: 5.

And banks?

GUARANTEEING FAIR BANKING FOR ALL AMERICANS
Executive Orders | August 7, 2025

"Financial institutions have engaged in unacceptable practices to restrict law-abiding individuals’ and businesses’ access to financial services on the basis of political or religious beliefs or lawful business activities ... Some financial institutions participated in Government-directed surveillance programs targeting persons participating in ... events that occurred at or near the United States Capitol on January 6, 2021 ..."

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/08/guaranteeing-fair-bankin...

>292 kiparsky: 'Most scholars of fascism' are liberals, and nowadays, liberals throw the word 'fascism' around lightly. (I know there are some, like Timothy Snyder and Federico Finchelstein, as well as the people mentioned in previous posts, who think the label is applicable, while others, like Isabel Hull and Richard Evans, disagree.) It's not a technical question, it's a political one. There are plenty of people on the Right who call all 'progressives' 'communists', because of the similarity of their political beliefs. It just obscures things to do so.

I confine the use of the word 'fascism' to organized mass movements with a paramilitary component, aiming to achieve a one-party state, which steal a lot of the social program of the Left. (Yes, this would leave out certain right-wing dictatorships which have conventionally been called 'fascist', like Franco's Spain, since Franco gained power via a military revolt, not a popular movement which professed leftist social goals. Too bad.)

The reason the word 'fascism' is popular among at least a segment of the Left is that it justifies their use of violence against conservatives. Thus the Portland Oregon leftists who laughed and cheered when they learned of the murder of Aaron Danielson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Aaron_Danielson_and_Michael_Reinoehl would no doubt have called him (and the other members of the group he was with) a 'fascist'.

By the way, I believe that violence against genuine fascists, as i define them, is sometimes correct. It's just a tactical question, not a principled one.

However, I don't believe that Trump is just another conservative, not even a particularly ignorant one. In the right circumstances, he might well become a fascist. Like many politicized Americans, Right and Left, he does not really believe in the rule of law. Tens of thousands of Americans during the 1930s, including some very intelligent people, became glorifiers of Joseph Stalin, justifying his executions, pact with Hitler, et. Circumstances can make people take up extreme positions.

Trump's one redeeming feature, and it's a critically important one, is that -- unlike ALL of his predecessors starting with the first George Bush, he is not committed to expanding American hegemony, excuse me, democracy, around the world by use of military force. Ironically, this is one characteristic that he shares with the Hate-America component of the Left.

Incidentally, being against race-based hiring and promotion, against unlimited immigration from Latin America, against abortion ... does not make you a 'fascist'. And -- and this should cause some turmoil on the Left -- neither does support of Israel's actions in Gaza.

So, to sum up: Trump and his supporters share some of the same concerns that fascists have. Progressives share some of the same concerns that supporters of the mass murderers Pol Po and Joseph Stalin had. On both sides there are many people who do not believe in the rule of law, or in free speech. It's tempting, and emotionally satisfying, for supporters of one side to label supporters of the other with a word that really describes only some of them. But it doesn't contribute to clarity of thought.

>301 Doug1943: You lost me on the first sentence. If you start off announcing that you're going to disregard the facts because you don't like the messenger, why would I read more?

If you believe that there is no point in paying attention to historians who specialize in fascism, then the thing to do is to realize that you don't want to understand what the word means, you have no interest in the meaning of the word, and you're choosing to remain pig-ignorant on the subject. The thing to not do is to try to lecture other people on what fascism is. Sorry, but you've just put yourself out of this game. Whatever personal definitions you come up with are your problem, you can keep them to yourself.

Incidentally, being against race-based hiring and promotion...does not make you a 'fascist'

Is this a typo? Are you trying to suggest that Republicans are against "race-based hiring and promotion"? The party that has literally put race-based hiring and promotion at the center of their platform? Fucking hell, you're not just ignorant about history, turns out you don't even know anything about the racist fuckrags that you're trying to support.

Let me suggest something: if there's something you actually know something about, talk about that. Leave history and current events to people who are paying attention and maybe talk about movies or sports or something. Or just sit there and look pretty, nothing wrong with that. But don't try to talk with the grown-ups, dude. You're not up to the job.

>301 Doug1943: organized mass movements with a paramilitary component, aiming to achieve a one-party state, which steal a lot of the social program of the Left.

As you say, that doesn't fit with how fascism has traditionally been defined.

The reason the word 'fascism' is popular among at least a segment of the Left is that it justifies their use of violence against conservatives. ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Aaron_Danielson_and_Michael_Reinoehl

Let's read that page:

"Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at the California State University, San Bernardino, commented to Voice of America in an article published on September 1, when investigations were still ongoing, that if Reinoehl was implicated it would mark the first case in recent history of an antifa supporter being charged with homicide." So for the most part, it justifies smacking people with sub sandwiches.

Trump: "We sent in the U.S. Marshals. It took 15 minutes it was over. Fifteen minutes, it was over. We got him. They knew who he was. They didn't want to arrest him." I.e., according to the president of the United States of America, the alleged shooter was extrajudicially killed without trial. Sure, it's not "fascist", it's merely anti-rule of law, that's the important thing.

Trump's one redeeming feature, and it's a critically important one, is that -- unlike ALL of his predecessors starting with the first George Bush, he is not committed to expanding American hegemony, excuse me, democracy, around the world by use of military force. Ironically, this is one characteristic that he shares with the Hate-America component of the Left.

That's weird; why did you start with George Bush? Mr. Iran-Contra was all about American hegemony. I don't get why that redeems anything; surely we would like a free and just government for us.

Trump and his supporters share some of the same concerns that fascists have.

Belief-wise, Trump and his supporters have expressed white supremacy and misogyny, with Hegseth tweet a link to the pastor of his church demanding that women should not vote, with an extreme dose of America First--hypernationalism is a key part of any fascist program as conventionally defined. For actions, he's pulled out the military on Southern California and Washington DC so far, and violently contested an election. "Share some of the same concerns that fascists have" is distinctly downplaying the issue.

Progressives share some of the same concerns that supporters of the mass murderers Pol Po and Joseph Stalin had.

Both for dramatic and persuasive purposes, this needs parallelism. Your failure to do so reveals a flaw in your argument; Trump shares concerns with Adolf Hitler, and progressives share concerns with American academics of the early to mid 20th century.

and this should cause some turmoil on the Left -- neither does support of Israel's actions in Gaza.

Willful disregard for the life of the untermenschen is pretty clearly a fascist trait. Maybe not unique to fascism, but indicative.

On both sides there are many people who do not believe in the rule of law, or in free speech.

Who are you trying to bullshit? The page you linked to says

"In October 2020, Danielson's killing was added to the CSIS terrorism database as a deadly "far-left" attack, the first such incident in over two decades. The killing is also referenced on the Anti-Defamation League's page on antifa, as the only "suspected antifa-related murder" to date; and the New America Foundation's tally of killings during terrorist attacks in the U.S. since 9/11, as the first recorded fatality in a far-left attack, while far right attacks have been regularly recorded for the past 25 years."

On one hand you have the president of the United States who has been using his power as president to hassle law firms who supported his opponents, colleges who teach things he doesn't like, states and cities whose policies he doesn't like. He has attacked the Smithsonian Museums for not following his rules, he's taken over the Kennedy Center. He's supported the Proud Boys -- there's part of your paramilitary component.

On the other, you have ... ? A bunch of college students? The people on the left who do not believe in the rule of law aren't in power. We could talk about free speech, but again, most of the power against free speech is from the right.

"The Communists called him a Fascist, perhaps because some of his methods of keeping public order were reminiscent of the means used in the workers’ paradises beyond the Iron Curtain. The extreme right, also called Fascists by the Communists, loathed him equally, quoting the same arguments of the suppression of democracy and civil rights, but more probably because the ruthless efficiency of his public order measures had gone a long way to preventing the complete breakdown of order that would have helped precipitate a right-wing coup ostensibly aimed at restoring that very order."

The Day of the Jackal, Frederick Forsyth, 1971

Yes, AntiFa use violence to try to disrupt conservative meetings. They have the mentality of fascists, but it would be a mis-use of the term to call them fascists. (Or, for that matter, to call them communists.)

And it's true that most lethal political or quasi-political violence comes from people 'on the Right'. Why this is true is an interesting question. Part of the explanation probably lies in the fact that young Leftists grow up in Left/liberal homes, where firearms ownership is much less likely than in 'rightwing' homes. It's probably also related to the fact that they're less likely, in general, to be 'technical'. Thus, during the late 60's and early 70's, when a section of the Left embarked on an extensive bombing campaign, they tended to blow themselves up as often as they blew up innocent people.

Leftists today would do well to study some American history, before deciding that the US is descending into fascism.

Read this appreciation -- now more than 20 years old -- of the man who was my Sunday School teacher in Houston Texas during the mid-1960s:

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Ben-Levy-founder-of-local-ACLU-...

Things have changed enormously since then, and for the better, so far as civil liberties are concerned.

Doug, when the fascists are saying they're getting everything they wanted I think it's time to stop pretending that this administration isn't fascist.