Your thoughts on a new group, gulp, about Poetry...

You may recognize me. I'm that pest from GR trying to get the hang of LT. I'm running "parallel" because I think both places have a lot to offer readers.

Over on GR I just started a new group and so am doing the same here, parallel. I've named them both The Poetry Collective. Yes, I know, that should be WILDLY popular, right? On GR, I have a group of friends and luckily found 6 interested to join the group and we are already discussing our first poem posted by a member.

I searched LT first for a group on poetry but all I found were "dormant" groups, not a good sign, but ever the optimist I am, I'm forging ahead.

It is simplicity itself: On Saturdays one member posts a single poem for the week. The group then discusses the one poem. I've made the group here on LT open to anyone. However, there is a commitment. If someone joins, they will be added to the roster (see https://www.librarything.com/topic/374036#n8954197) to post a poem on a Saturday, and how frequently will depend on the number of members. New members being added to the next open date on the roster.

What say you, Welcome to LibraryThing! kind helpers? I don't want to break any LT rules but neither do I desire to be the next big thing. I'm just looking for a few like-minded poetry souls here. Is it okay to ask for a commitment from the membership? What sorts of things should I do next to rally a small group? Would it be unethical to go the existing dormant poetry groups and post an invitation there? Am I breaking copyright rules to include complete poems in an LT public group?

ETA. D'uh, the link to the group! https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/24862/The-Poetry-Collective

Publishing someone else's work without their permission is evil. Respect copyright.

I joined. If I understood correctly, the idea is for members to post a poem a week, with members who post it rotating. Looking forward to reading some new poetry, which I've been neglecting for a while. Ironic, since it's the one thing I actually write myself.

In general, the benefit of existing groups, even if dormant, is that they usually have a decent or better membership and reviving them with a post and some initiative is sometimes all it takes to get it going again. (I'd probably opt for a new one for this too as it has a unique concept).

Perhaps cross-post this in existing poetry groups? I follow this one https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/115/Poetry-Fool I was sure there's one where people post their own poetry, but can't seem to find it

>2 MarthaJeanne: How is posting a single poem from a collection evil? If anything, it will introduce the poet to those who unfamiliar before

>4 SandraArdnas: You are stealing that person's work.

>2 MarthaJeanne: I asked and you answered, I appreciate that. I'm not publishing all of her work, just a sampling of one poem. I think that's allowed. Also, she is dead. I think the UK has different copyright laws as well, shorter time period.

Am I still evil?

Yes. If the poem is under copyright, it is also illegal.

>4 SandraArdnas: I don't know the law, but that is the intent. If by sharing one poem introduces her to a new reader who purchases her book (from 1972, she died in 1971) the sale would be a new one for her estate.

Is this not similar to quoting in a review which is done all the time?

Would it be different if it were a private group?

All these are legal questions and as interpreted by the ToS of LT, really.

laws do vary by country, https://www.futurelearn.com/info/courses/how-to-make-a-poem/0/steps/47820 discusses the case of the UK, and agrees with my memories of other things I have read - "a whole poem is not within the scope of fair dealing"

>8 DebiCates:

A quote from a poem is not the same thing as posting the entire poem.

This might, in the U.S., arguably fall under the fair use doctrine, but my expertise is in criminal, not intellectual property, law.

You might check out https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/

@TimSharrock and @lilithcat, I see. I am convinced that a whole poem (not in the public domain) would be a legal infringement (and the "abuse" is wider spread than we might think). I appreciate @MarthaJeanne's vigilance to protect the rights of creators.

In lieu of the whole poem in the group, then a link to a site that has received permission (posted on its site like poetryfoundation.org) would be in my group okay?

>10 lilithcat: Lilithcat, I did go to that website and searched for "poem"....I gotta say I appreciate anyone, like you, who can decipher legalese. I read it three times and still am not sure what I read. But Google AI, in less technical terms, assured me posting a whole poem was an infringement.

>5 MarthaJeanne: I'm not a copyright lawyer, but I would assume it falls under fair use just as quoting sections from a prose book. Either way, unless you are certain it doesn't, I would steer clear from even asserting so, let alone designating people as evil. Seriously, calm down

I have no official "site" position. The rule is that, if we aren't told to take it down, we don't. We aren't responsible for checking what members post. Indeed, if we make ourselves responsible, then we're responsible if we miss one.

My personal view, however, is that:

1. Not all poems are in copyright. Old ones are not.
2. Posting may fall under fair use. It really depends. Criticism is generally fair use, but posting a whole poem for the purpose is less clear.
3. So many poems are posted here and there on the internet, in situations where the usage is clearly bad, that the risk of posting one on a forum of people devoted to discussing it and loving it is low. Poets are much more offended by a site that collects all their poems, or an ebook piracy site, than a single poem somewhere in a discussion thread.
4. Rather than posting a poem, you can just post a link to where it can be found. The poetry foundation is… wonderful.
5. Whatever you do, make sure to use touchstones for the work it can be found in. You can link to where it can be bought too, if that's not obvious and easy (e.g., Amazon).

Lastly, if you start a new group about poetry, give it a fairly straightforward name. Sometimes people name a group something super-clever and then it can't be found. So don't call it "Meters and feet" or "Spondee-tanious" or "Poesy makes the world go round."

Anyway, I'd join. I love to talk about poetry. It's generally missing from my life now, and I want LibraryThing to be better about it. This would be more of a reason for that. I tend to prefer older poems and despise Rupi Kaur-ism. I hope that's not a problem.

>14 timspalding:

https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/24862/The-Poetry-Collective

>14 timspalding: Thank you, Tim. That clarifies things as far as LT is concerned and that was my primary concern.

Please do join us! (Us=2 people so far!) I hope my group name sends the right poetry vibes out into the LT universe. And you can even see there right now the poem in question.

https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/24862/The-Poetry-Collective

P.S. Rupi Kaur-ism is not a problem. No idea who what that is so probably all good. Also, the idea is each member is responsible for posting a poem for discussion on a rotation of Saturdays, depending on the number of members. I'll update the roster so it's clear when your poem of choice is up for sharing.

>1 DebiCates: I want to love poetry again, I did when I was a kid, and still own some books.... perhaps hanging out a bit with those who do will help? :)

>17 TonjaE: It will! No doubt. And it's just once a week, so that makes it not only manageable, but gives us plenty of time to ponder and enjoy. And maybe even to think of some poem we'd like to share when it's our turn. :)

I hope it re-ignites your love of poetry. And no, it doesn't have to be the stuff we had to study in school. (I had to study Paradise Lost by John Milton. At 16! Thank heaven it didn't ruin poetry for me. It's not the kind of thing a teen listening to Led Zeplin and Pink Floyd would get excited about, that's for sure.)