Raising children religion-free

When my daughter was younger, it was easy to disallow church visitations and offers for her to join Bible-study programs directed at children. (I admit, I didn't want her coming home singing "Jesus loves me".)Now, she's eleven-- old enough to understand whatever a religion might try to tell her and she's free to form her own opinion.

Whenever she asked questions about religion or religious culture, doctrine, etc., I tried to give her both sides of a story: "A believer might say... but a non-believer might say..." She's well aware of my own bias but I'm trying to encourage her curiosity.

American culture is so steeped in Christianity (at least where I live in the midwest U.S.) that I find it difficult to educate my child in a way that she would understand Bible references without being drawn into religion. How do you fight against hymns sung at Christmas concerts? Even my congressman sent religious-charged "patriotism" pamphlets to every elementary student in the school district!

So, who else is trying to raise a religion-free child and how do you do it? What religion-based problems have you encountered when it comes to kids and how did you deal with them?

I have similar thoughts/issues/concerns, thanks for bringing this up.

I just ordered, though have not read yet, a book called Parenting Beyond Belief which, I understand, addresses some of these issues.
Maybe you should get it as well!

My 11 year old daughter is going to Bible camp this summer. Ugh. But all of her good friends are going, so I caved in because it's a "friends" thing. Last year she came home singing a couple Hallelujah songs for a week or so, then it faded. I talk to her before and after she goes, and I hold my nose and let it happen. I'm not happy, but she's with friends, I guess, that's what I justify it with, anyway.

But you are right, they need to know about religion....my answer is to teach them about ALL religion....an ongoing parental comparative religion course of sorts, where those sorts of questions are answered as straightforwardly as possible.

Plus, there are lots of family members on both sides who are religious, so they find out about things and ask questions.

I don't give off any vibe of hostility or derision, I just explain what "some people believe" and am honest about what I believe.

My six-year old, a couple of weeks ago, asked "if there were no people when there were dinosaurs, where did the first two people come from?" So, I tried to explain things, but it's a toughie for a kid that age. The concept of "cavemen" sorta helped. I ordered a book called Our Family Tree: An Evolution Story, which, actually,
I just finished reading to him! It's pretty good...but we still had to go over things a few times, I think he gets it.

But, hey, there are plenty of adults who don't understand evolution, so he's in good company.

My 14 year old boy describes himself as atheist, but I'm pretty certain he hasn't thought deeply about it. He sees current religions as variations on a historical theme that includes Zeus and pals. A few years ago, he asked me why don't people still believe in the greek gods....and announced that he thought he might like to do that. So I bought him D'Aulaires Book of Greek Myths and after reading that, he wasn't as keen about offering up any sort of worship to that wacky bunch.

That's my take on things thus far, some ups and downs.

#2: I certainly cannot speak as a parent, but I think you really touched on something when you brought up mythology. Mythology is definitely a good way to appreciate how belief systems are constantly changing. I think that besides the social aspect of exploring religion, children (and adults) can certainly be attracted to the "easy" answers that religion provides. Instead of giving kids the hard answers of science, mythology shows how people have been generating easy answers for millenia.

So. My parents successfully brought both me and my sister up to be atheists. Now I'm trying to raise my son to be one. Tough luck, I say. I had no idea it could be so hard!

When I grew up we still sang a psalm at the start of the school day - it was compulsory. Also, when we learnt to read and write we also were taught the Bible, before history as I think of it was even mentioned. I have a clear memory of being taught to memorise the lord's prayer, and I still remember parts of it.
Each semester started with a ceremony held in church, and each semester ended in the same way.
I remember I treated the biblical stories as any tale, but I also remember writing a letter to the Ecclesiastical Department, which back then was the government branch handling educational policy, asking them to substitute 'christianity' with something useful, like how to fix a bike tyre ;-)

I think this 'scepticism' was based in my parent's attitude towards knowledge. My dad has, as I have mentioned in other places, for the major part of his life edited and written encyclopaedias. Now he's retired he writes textbooks. My mum has a master in political sciences, being a very practical and logical person. Whenever I asked a question, however young I was, they often answered by pulling out an illustrated encyclopaedia, or sketching the mechanisms involved. When the time came I encountered 'belief' I viewed it as an absurd concept, in the light of what I knew about evolution, etcetera.

I am sure that if they've had a live and let live attitude about religion I'm not sure I would had turned out the way I did. To them it was nothing but uneducated nonsense, superstition - something cavemen engaged in, because of lack of better knowledge. Or - that was how I interpreted it, at the time. In reality their views were more nuanced, but I didn't get that, back then.

Nowadays the swedish school is non-confessional, by law. My son loves his 'big book about everything' (an illustrated children's encyclopaedia). But some weeks ago he came home telling me that we became angels when we died. I took him to the burial ground/churchyard, taking a look at the crematorium, showing him what really happened (burial or burning). I try not to tell him it's superstition - I try to tell what's really happening when you die.
It seems some of the kid's parents are very religious, and those parents tell their kids about cheezus and god and things. I have answered by trying tell him about mythologies and their function. But it is hard to do this and not say these other parents are wrong.
I want to tell the pre-school teachers I expect them to follow the law (non-confessional, remember?) but they can't supervise every word any of the 16 4-5 yo kids say at any given time. Also, one of the teachers is a practising muslim. How do I tell her I'm atheist, without hurting our relationship?

Being a parent is not easy.

A bit OT but one of the threads in Tom Perrotta's The Abstinence Teacher deals with this issue as the two young girls of the main character catch the religion bug and start going to church.

My biggest hurdles are dealing with my mom in regards to my son. In her opinion, raising him as an atheist is no different than raising him as a fundamentalist (insert any religion here).

I'm not trying to raise my kids as atheists any more than I'm trying to raise them as janitors or nuclear physicists. With kids, I see my responsibility as teaching critical thinking, and presenting the world the way it is, honestly and forthrightly. Where they choose to go is not up to me, ultimately. It never is. I am not raising them in any one religious tradition, but not hiding them from the existence of such, that would cripple them as adults, and maybe even drive them towards it "how come you never told me anything about this?".

I'm a non-parent who, at this time at least, does not plan on having children, but this has been an interesting question to me for years. As Busifer notes, even in government schools that aren't themselves religious, it's impossible to stop a little friend telling your child about how her dog went to heaven or some such. I am a fan of homeschooling anyway, but wouldn't it be great to find a nice little freethinker private school, kind of like those alternative summer camps I've been hearing about?

fleela's concerns about grandparents (and great-grandparents) are something I have thought of too. My own mother and father couldn't really care less (they took me too church because of my grandparents), but who knows what the in-laws might be like.

Anyway, I just wanted to say this is a pretty fascinating discussion for me. Who knows, in ten or fifteen years I might decide my biological clock is ticking and this will come in handy. Hopefully teaching my children to question all authority will do the trick of getting them to question religious authority as well.

I'm more along the lines of Atomic's method. I don't work to keep religion from my son-we live in Texas in a very conservative community, I work in a Christian university, several of our very close neighbors are ministers or missionaries, so keeping religion away from him is a lost cause. I do think critical thinking skills, moral and ethical instruction, and respect for the religious are all important things for my son to learn. But then again, I'm not an atheist and I don't think it's important for him to be religion-free. I made a decision before I even got pregnant that if my children ever asked to visit church with friends, I would let them-and go with them so we could talk about what was said.

We also have a household rule that my in-laws are not allowed to take Gryphon to chuch alone. They used to belong to a cult, my MIL speaks in tongues, and I don't agree with any of the social or moral teachings of their church. My parents are even bigger heathens than I am, so I don't have to worry about them (Mom is kind of a Pagan, too, step-dad is a militant agnostic).

As for teaching my child about evolution-we went to the Smithsonian in December and I was walking around with him explaining evolution and all the concepts, using their displays to help with the explination (I took a class in evolution in college and I read quite a bit about it, so the details aren't exactly fuzzy for me). There are also so many good children's books out there that start explaining evolution.

I want to have and adopt children someday, and they will be raised secularly. I wouldn't talk to them about gods and religious faith unless the topic came up, and then it would be with facts and encouraging of feedback (i.e. "a lot of people believe this, what do you think?"). I know that it is definitely going to be difficult, though, as my parents are highly devoted Muslims, and if they have anything to do with my future children's lives, it could mean confusion and interference. Indeed, when my parents were at their most angry with me, they told me that if I married and had children outside of the faith, they didn't want "atheist-children" in their house and neither I, my future spouse, nor the children would be welcome.

it's impossible to stop a little friend telling your child about how her dog went to heaven or some such.
The opposite could also happen, with your child correcting his/her friend. I grew up being brainwashed to Islam, instead of the mainstream Christianity, and so I would "correct" other kids. For example, I would tell them that Santa and the Easter Bunny were lies that their parents told them, Jesus was actually a prophet and not the son of God, and all the prophets' (Abraham, Jesus, Moses) true faith was Islam before being corrupted by their followers. Needless to say, I must have confused many of them and caused consternation in parents whose children went home and repeated what I had said.

I am a fan of homeschooling anyway, but wouldn't it be great to find a nice little freethinker private school, kind of like those alternative summer camps I've been hearing about?
This sounds to me like the arguments my parents used to keep me isolated within Islamic schools, not to mention the arguments that fundamentalist Christians use to keep their children isolated. No matter how much you think that you are "right," people forget that schooling isn't just about the academic education. Being schooled is also about being socialized and learning how to deal with people whose lifestyle and views differ from yours --- that is an education in and of itself. Let's face it, the real world is comprised of mostly religious people. Students isolated in religious environments until college tend to experience some level of crisis as soon as they hit the post-secondary educational environment, and I could definitely foresee that happening to a person kept in a secular bubble who comes across religious groups in college. I think that we secular types get a little too high and mighty sometimes, assuming that the aforementioned crisis comes merely from irrationality colliding with free thought, but it also has something to do with simply not being used to dealing with something.

Oh-quick comment. About a month ago, I discovered why it's so hard to raise a child without a clear religious path (I'm not raising Gryphon with my religion). We found a dead bird in the yard. We did the whole burying it in a shoe box in the backyard. I wanted to be able to explain to Gryphon what happened to the bird, what will happen to it, and say something about the dead bird. My god-daughters would simply say "He's in heaven now." I said "The bird died-he's not going to wake up because he's not asleep. His heart isn't beating anymore and he's not breathing, so he can't live." For once, the Lion King saved me-I got to say that the bird will now be food for all the earthworms in the ground and help the grass grow. Gryphon got it. To be honest, I don't know that he'd get the concept of God anyways-he has autism and is VERY literal. The concept of a deity is very abstract.

>7 Atomicmutant:
That's sound a bit like my mother's argument against me - not to raise him to think anything stongly either way. But, I am an atheist. As is my husband. I have no qualms about raising my son in the same manner. If he chooses a different way as he gets older, that's his choice.

In the meantime, we're enjoying being godless heathens.

As a child, I wasn't taught much about religion in general. I grew up in a Catholic or Lutheran area (those being your choices), and then went to a Catholic college. I had the faintest idea about religion, and was frustrated that I didn't know what everyone else had known since childhood.

I guess what I'm saying is that I love that I believe what I believe because my parents didn't choose for me, but I also wish I could have fit in more seamlessly. A quick study in Catholicism would have gone a long way.

That being said, I love learning about religions, and plan on teaching my children that people are Catholic and Islamic, just like there are Australians and Icelanders - you don't have to be them to learn about and respect them.

If you're looking for an early introduction to Hindu, I'd like to suggest Little India. The author is a Pixar illustrator, and has a great sense of style for the artwork. The text is probably for ages 5 and up, but the illustrations are appealing for all ages.

You do have an important point about cultural literacy. I think you're right that you are going to have to introduce some "bible study" as literary reference just so the child would be able to understand allusion in literature and conversation. In the same sense, mythology and other religions' most well-known beliefs are often taught in schools of particular religious backgrounds. In fact, I find that's less taught in public schools than actual indoctrination is. For example, my children in private schools (of a non-christian religion) learned Greek mythology and christian political/social history; my children in public schools came home with papers with reindeer, hearts, shamrocks and so on in various seasons but the curriculum there avoids teaching the history of christianity as a religion and political force. The children in the religious school know they're never going to pray to Zeus but they can discuss The Iliad and appreciate allusions in other works to The Odyssey or St. Augustine, and I believe they need to be able to do this to be fully literate and be able to make the best use of their future educations (based on the educations I hope to be able to provide them).

I don't think sheltering children from religion is the way to go. Maybe the thing to do isn't to try to "raise an atheist" but instead to raise an open-minded, skeptical child. I wasn't raised in religion, but my family went to synagogue for the high holy days and my sister and I (reluctantly) went to the temple's Sunday school. We learned about religion. We also celebrated (in the secular sense) holidays/holy days including Hanukkah, Christmas, Easter, Yom Kippur, and my personal favorite, Passover.

We went to church with my one grandmother when we visited her and would do the Sabbath prayers with my other grandmother when we visited her.

My sister and I weren't raised religion-free, though we were certainly raised religion-lite, and it just wasn't an issue in our home.

While I don't have children of my own, I was until relatively recently a child growing up in a secular household so my perspective may be of some use to someone.

I wasn't raised to be anti-religion, but there was never any mention of God or religion at home unless I asked a question. My school was also very non-religious; we had no school chaplain, there were no religion classes and there were no school religion clubs. My religious "education" occurred in dribs and drabs through exposure to television, books etc and going to church with religious friends. In particular, my best friend through primary (elementary) school was a Baptist and I attended her church whenever I slept over at her house (which was a fairly regular occurrence).

My other exposure was from my grandmother who bought a children's bible for me and my brother when she realised that the only questions we could never answer on TV quiz shows were the religious ones. It was more of a story book than a bible and gave me a grounding in the stories which are often referred to even outside Christian circles (Noah, David and Goliath, Judas etc).

I'm not getting there very directly but I suppose my point is that all children are likely to be exposed to religion and religious doctrine at some point. Unless they live a religious life at home, it is unlikely that they will truly adopt that way of living, especially if they see their parents successfully and happily living a secular life. In many ways the exposure to other ways of thought just helps children begin to understand that not everyone thinks the same way and that it's important to respect other people's beliefs. Attending church with my friend showed me another side to her life that I didn't always see at school, but it was always her thing, never mine. If your child is confident in themselves and in you, they will be able to experience and question these things respectfully without being "converted".

Having said that, this does rather depend on you being around for your child when they are experiencing these things. With something like Bible camp, where all the adults and children could be pressuring non-religious children to join in (peer pressure is a powerful thing) it may be best (depending on the child) to talk them as often as possible (phone calls etc) about what they are experiencing. Without a religiously neutral adult present at the camp, an outside perspective is even more important for the inevitable questions a child will have.

"raise an open-minded, skeptical child"

Add to that a lack of any religion and, to me, that is raising my son as an atheist.

17 fleela

I don't agree with denying knowledge. Religion is in the world, it's all around us, in the media, in games and movies and tv shows, in school and friends' houses. Just because you don't talk about it doesn't mean that other people won't.

It is still within the realm of possibility that at some point your son could turn around and say that he's decided to convert to some religion. It happens - there are occasionally atheists who convert to or back to religion.

But if they've been raised to be open-minded and skeptical, then at least it will be their choice, not religious brainwashing.

I don't have kids, but I agree that the best way seems to be teaching kids about all religions. If they choose to believe something, good for them. If they opt for atheism, good for them. I think the whole point should be respecting people's choices in matters spiritual.

>17 DaynaRT: Where did I say I deny knowledge?

We don't practice any kind of religion. We're atheists. That doesn't mean we don't talk about it. And I said in an earlier post that what he chooses to do when he gets older is just that, his choice.

WHy is it so important to rasie a religion-free child? How does this make our world safer, or even more truthful.

This sounds to me like the arguments my parents used to keep me isolated within Islamic schools, not to mention the arguments that fundamentalist Christians use to keep their children isolated.

As I said initially, I am a fan of homeschooling in general—for educational, not religious, reasons. But that is a lot of work and impossible for many families, while most private schools are religious in orientation. I wouldn't want to send my children to an overtly religious school, and I wouldn't want to send them to a public school either, having lived through that myself. So a nice, secular, private school would be ideal, really—and, as I said, a freethinking one with a focus on critical thinking, challenging authority, and self-directed learning. This is not a "secular bubble," but a place where you can actually say, "A, B, and C believe X, Y, and Z, but there is no evidence for it."

And I would agree with LeesyLou that the kind of "exposure" you are talking about is so watered down in public schools as to be useless. As with all things in public schools, teachers have to be careful not to step on the toes of the parents and community, the vast majority of whom are religious. An enormous number of public schools that allegedly teach the Bible as literature do so using an unconstitutional curriculum. And don't expect kids to learn to question authority in such a place, either.

My private school was secular, if you don't count the cult of sports, which I think damaged me more than any religious experience could have. Our public school was infinitely better on all levels. This may be because I live in the northeast.

And ultimately, if you ban kids from something that much, they're naturally going to be curious about it.

> 14 I do not have any children, but I can say this much. If you spend time teaching your children about all religions, and expose them to the literature and mythos, then your children will be leaps and bounds ahead in cultural literacy than the average child. Most children of this culture are incredibly illiterate when it comes to religious allusions, etc. so they cannot interpret some of the great literary classics.

Rather reminds me of the difference between watching Rocky and Bullwinkle as a child, and now seeing the reruns when I have knowledge of the Cold War history. Wow! So much more there than I saw as a child.

Religion - or, as I tend to think of it; mythologies - are an important factor in this world.
I did in any way say that I try to 'shelter' my child from religion - I think that would be false. But if I don't influence him others will, and I want him to grow up seeking 'facts', in a methodical way, questioning whatever is taught/told.

I was taught, by my parents, about other religions. Not in school; not until I was a teen. I'm telling my son of other religions, too. I think if he sees that people believe in a lot of different ways it will be easier for him to see religion for what it is. Especially compared to natural/political science. It will also give him a key to comprehend different social behaviour, especially when he grows older and start to understand the economic & power factors.

The topic here is raising children to be religion-free, which is different from raising them to make their own decisions. Raising them to be religious-free is imposing your own religion (or lack) on to your children.

I chose to let my children make their own decisions, in spite of the fact that I was their pastor and father. My daughter chose to go to a college that is run by my denomination (although when she first got there she complained that the students were all right wingers and the teachers all fundamentalists--her opinions of both changed as she got to know them better.) She goes to a church, and believes in God in the Christian sense. She is not a fundamentalist by any stretch of the imagination.

My son is...well he was a Buddhist for a while, until I told that he could not get out of church just by SAYING he was a Buddhist. I took him on several mediation retreats at our local Zen Center and in LA. In our last discussion about religion he said he was not sure about the whole God thing, but open. (He told me he really appreciated not having me shove my faith down his throat--even if it meant taking hits as a pastor.)

My youngest son (9) LOVES god. After watching the Da Vinci code, his comment was, "I guess it is good that people make movies about god." He sings Christian songs, listens to Christian music, and is not happy with our Quaker church because they do not do Bible study.

None of them, I am proud to say, is like me in my own beliefs, although you can certainly see my influence in their own choices.

Guess I'm guilty of imposing a lack of something on my child. I suppose I'm imposing a lack of alcoholism, left-handedness, and Cadillac ownership on him too.

Shame on me.

Cadillacs????!!!!

Sigh. You would do that to a child?

WHy is it so important to rasie a religion-free child? How does this make our world safer, or even more truthful.

Raising a child to believe in a religion is promulgating a huge lie. Raising a child without religion doesn't. There's your "more truthful" right there. Also why would someone who was an atheist/agnostic raise their child so that he/she is a believer? Raising an open-minded, sceptical child with no religious belief in the home (but discussions of what others believe) seems the best way to go.

Unless of course some religions contain some element of truth. To say all religion is a lie is like saying all politics is a lie. Religion, with all it's hairy noxiousness, and all its beauty, is not something we should feel we have shield our children from, but then I am a lot more open about what kinds of music my kids hear (parents all over the city are blaming me for their children first hearing the Clash the Sex Pistols through my daughter's sixth grade report on Punk music) and what kind of movies they see. Also, what kinds of religion they are exposed to, including (although it is not a religion) atheism.

I don't think atheists as a whole have the market cornered on truth. Nor are they a bunch of liars. They are part of the mix.

When it comes to child rearing, I tended to opt for the peaks and valleys, as opposed to the flatlands. The more they know, the more varied the terrain where they will live, intellectually speaking. To say to my kids, "Christianity is the only truth" or "All religion is a lie" can lead to a flat life, I believe.

The way is never without potholes, nor is it straight and flat.

The topic here is raising children to be religion-free, which is different from raising them to make their own decisions. Raising them to be religious-free is imposing your own religion (or lack) on to your children.

I can't speak for imaybe1, of course, but that is not the meaning I took from the thread's title, or his/her original post. I didn't think s/he meant "raising children to be religion-free."

Rather, I took it to mean, "What are some good ideas when it comes to raising a child in a home that does not believe in or practice a religion?"

And it sounds -- to me, at least -- as if most of the replies here have been along those lines. There have been some good ideas here -- including yours, Arctic-Stranger -- and it sounds to me as if open-mindedness, thougthfulness, and education are key elements in child-rearing. Regardless of whether a child is brought up in a religion, or not. :)

(Disclaimer: I am not a parent and do not wish to be one, so my views on what makes for good parenting may or may not be accurate.)

>27 DaynaRT: Yes!

Parents with a religion are not at all shy about raising their children with religion. In fact, most of them are proud of their efforts. (As I think they should be, raising kids is complicated.)

I don't understand why a-religious parents need to tiptoe around raising their children without a religion, as if it was some kind of a pariah thing.

I'm a reader. I've raised my kids to be readers. I'm a-religious, I've raised my kids to be a-religious. My favorite color is blue, I tend to dress my kids in blue. Shrug.

I don't think raising a child a-religious means 'ignorant of the cultural or literary history' of religions. There have been a lot of good suggestions on how to fill that information in.

I don't understand why a-religious parents need to tiptoe around raising their children without a religion, as if it was some kind of a pariah thing.

My husband and I certainly stood out last evening at my son's fifth grade graduation program. When the entire auditorium turn towards the back where we were sitting, to face the flag to say the Pledge, they saw us still seated, quietly waiting for the incantation to be finished.

The line I get fed for why I should keep our atheism secret (or at least not a part of his upbringing) from my son is that then I am "no better" than religious folks who raise their kids in the tradition of their choosing. Well, I'm not trying to better than anyone. I'm simply trying to bring up a freethinker, not a slave to superstition.

Here's a perspective. I'm 25. I was raised more or less out of religion.

I went to church for a while when I was very little, because my grandmother would take me. Eventually my mom got tired of waking up in the mornings to get me ready, so that's how I lost my religion before I knew what it was. All I knew about Christianity was a few songs and watered down bible stories.

Everything I knew about all religions I learned from the media. Books, movies, television. My parents didn't teach me anything. I think this probably was a good thing, as I didn't get any bias from someone close to me whom I loved and respected. So I learned Catholicism from Kevin Smith and "Stigmata" and I got Judaism from 'Fiddler on the Roof' and Judy Blume. My Wicca came from 'The Craft' and 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'

So where did this leave me? Well, I didn't know where we went when we died. After all, there was heaven and reincarnation...or nothing. I liked ghosts and paranormal stuff, even though it just added to my questions. I remember I would scare myself by trying to imagine what 'nothing' would be. Dying still scares me because I don't know what will happen. In high school I went through a wicca/pagan phase, which was helpful in showing me what a**holes my Christian friends were.

After years of thought I have settled into something between atheism and agnostic. Most of the religions piss me off. I lean towards agnostic because I dont want to be nothing when I die. If I was going to go back to religion it would be wicca.

Even though growing up without religion was scary (just the fear of death thing--I never minded not believing in what my friends believed), I wouldn't want to have been brainwashed by any religion. It made me think deep philosophical thoughts at a young age, and I grew up with few prejudices based on faith. I think it's made me smarter and more aware of the world around me.

I love Keven Smith Fiddler on the Roof and I have Buffy in my Netflix queue, but learning about Catholicism or Wicca solely from these sources is like learning about the French political process from George W. Bush.

When my son said he was a Buddhist I made sure he interacted with Buddhists. (I did it the sloppy way--reading On the Road and listening to Cat Stevens, until I was an adult, and did Zen sesshins.) His rejection of Christianity has great integrity, and I respect it because he KNOWS exactly what he is rejecting.

I think the advantage of experiencing other religions is important in many ways. It is part of the whole education thing. On the other hand, I fully respect people whose "beliefs"...no make that convictions, would keep them from having their children experience religion at an early age. I absolutely forbid any music in my house that refered to women as "bitches and 'ho's" or was discriminatory to any ethnic group or gays and lesbians. (That led to some really interesting discussions on how I read the Bible--and I am sure some of you are thinking I should have banned THAT from my house as well!) On the other hand, I bought them their first punk CDs, and recently have been reading Camus with my son.

I guess my bias is, within limits, to expose children to as much as possible, with some guidance. They get my values in spades, partly...well mostly from example...what I do with my time, and how I treat them and others. Some of it sticks. Not all of it should!

My wife and I are both jewish, fiercely secular, left of center and live on New York's upper west side.

Our daughter, now grown is pretty much ditto, except that she things the Upper West Side is too stodgy. She lives on East 14th street on the fringe
of the east village.

How did it happen? Eats me, not that I'm complaining.

Of course, growing up on the upper west side, what would you expect?

>36 modalursine: what would you expect?

No idea. Most people outside of NYC don't know what "upper west side" has to do with one's upbringing. Can you pin down my personality if I tell you I was born and raised in NWI?

ref #37
What, you've never seen a Woody Allen movie?

Mark Twain had one of his characters say "Tell me how a man gets his corn pone, and I'll tell you what his opinions is". (A dirty trick to play on a non native speaker, quoting dialog from he of the politically incorrect name, but there you are.) Our modern marketeers have updated that by saying "Tell me what a person's postal code is, etc".

So yeah, I'll bet there are people who can tell you all sorts of things about yourself by knowing your postal code. I dont know if NWI is specific enough though.

Google "Upper West Side Manhattan" and all will be revealed.

Ye Gads! I didnt know how true I spoke. On a lark I
googled my zip code (10025). There's a picture of me naked on a bear skin rug. Well maybe not quite, but sheesh!

My sons apparently took their cue from me. I am a formerly-passive atheist. I tend to be a bit more vocal now. When the lads were much younger, my now-ex would cyclically get a desire to go to church. Each time it was a different church. She would take the boys with her, and they would have a miserable time, for various reasons, and she would drag them back the following week, kicking and screaming. Sometimes it was the boys who would kick and scream, but mostly.... it was her. I finally got involved when the boys asked me to -- it was one of those Life Lessons they needed to learn. I got them to tell me why they didn't like going, helped them organize their arguments, and then called a family meeting. Mind you, the 2 older boys were no older than 6 (the youngest was not yet born). My now-ex could not argue around their position, so she waited about 6 months or so and try again with a different church.

I had explained to my sons that if they were going to take a freethinker stance, they had to be able to state ~why~ they didn't want to attend church; and that the best way to do that was to go a couple of times and not be all agitated about it, and see what they did or didn't like. So, they did. One of them even took notes.

Two are now Eagle Scouts; the youngest opted out. Being in Scouts from First Grade, on, (until last Summer actually -- the oldest and youngest have been working the long-term camps, summer and winter for years -- the oldest is now 25) there was a lot of pressure to declare religious affiliation. On the cover page of all the applications to join Scouts (at any level), you have to sign the part that states that you believe in, and worship, a creator. So, we lied. We signed under duress. 99% of Scouting activities have nothing to do with religious anything, so you put up with attendance-mandatory religious services, and you remain mute while the rest declare "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, and you inhale while others state "to God and" in the Scout Oath, and you applaud when the couple of Scouts are singled out as having earned their Religious Pin. If the high mucky-mucks in Scouts decide to investigate, they can (legally, not morally) strip my sons of their Eagle Rank.

My sons are atheists because they understand that those-things-which-are-the-foundations-of-current-religions are the minorly-altered mythology of the-things-which-were-the-foundations-of-now-defunct-religions.

It may also have something to do wit the fact that they realized that their mother was a loony. She seems to be better now (more tolerable to be around), but they saw how she used the various churches in our area for her own purposes. They helped her get into assistance programs and free legal counseling when she had absolutely no need of their services, but used very effectively against me in Court. I could go on.... End result, the lads lost all respect for the religiously-bent.

Note to kaelirenee, re: #9
You said: "...we live in Texas in a very conservative community"
I popped over to your Profile Page -- it says you live in Irving, Tx.
You don't live in a conservative community.
You live in THE MOST conservative community in the country!!!
You live in that spot of leather just above the metal pin poking through the last hole in the buckle of the Bible Belt (which explains why the Boy Scout head office is there).
My heart goes out to you -- I feel your pain. I happen to live in Texas' most conservative county -- Williamson.

WHL-Yup, I do live in the MOST conservative community, and don't I know it. My 9th grade biology teacher taught us creationism-and not just any creationism-the Earth is 6000 years old creationism. And this was in 1994. (To folks who follow the news, Irving is the city that's been working really closely with ICE to have any illegal immigrant who is arrested immediatly deported, so that's why it might sound familiar.) Not only is Irving home to the Boy Scout headquarters, we're also home to Trinity Broadcasting and we have more churches per capita than any other city in America. We're also the home of one of the largest mosques in Texas-go figure-so my son is just as likely to see a woman in a chador as he is to see a man in a cowboy hat. I like to think I'm doing my little part to help open some very tightly closed minds, though-by most appearances, I'm a normal mom, a librarian, I keep my lawn neat (which is a big deal). Then the neighbors learn I'm a Pagan and they have to re-evaluate their assumptions about what Pagan means. It's a good thing. :)

#30 - I certainly don't tell my child that religion are lies. But when the kids at his pre-school says we go to heaven when we die I say we have stopped to be alive and thus can't go anywhere, that we don't exist any longer and (my husband is horrified by this, he thinks it disgusting) that insects are good because they are the nature's cleaners, eating animals that die in the wild.

I try never to say anything bad about religion - I just tell him my view of things, showing him my sources (and how to search/where to look).
Not long ago he asked me why day and night, and I used a football (soccer ball) and a few others to illustrate the earth and the moon and the sun.

Some things he's too young to grasp, on a conceptual level - he's 4.5 yo! - but hopefully he'll latch on to the idea that most things have a natural cause that is easy to understand (and that some things are hard to understand but that don't make them less valid).

Not long ago he asked me why day and night, and I used a football (soccer ball) and a few others to illustrate the earth and the moon and the sun.

You did not tell him about the Flying Spaghetti Monster's cosmic flashlight? Shame on you!

Hush, don't tell anyone, but I don't believe in the FSM... ;-)

That sentence is a leftover from another line of reasoning, and I kept it as that sentence made me write the last paragraph.

Anyway, a) the other kids don't ask such things, but he has learnt that it's possible to ask me questions like that, and b) 2 out of 16 pairs of parental units (number of kids in his pre-school class) would had answered 'because god made it thus'. 1 parent (me) would describe how the earth falls around the sun (it's a lie, in the 'lie to children' way*, but I have to try to describe it in a way that he can understand) and the rest, including my husband, would answer either 'don't know' or 'because'.

No wonder my son wakes up at night, having nightmares ;-) But I'll bet anything that he will profit from the knowledge, in the end.

* See The Science of Discworld series...

I showed my son the earth/sun thing in the same way when he was younger! He used a different version of it in a science project this year to show why the moon goes through phases.



So even though I looked very silly trying to rotate a baseball around a basketball without dropping them on my toes, it paid off with a good grade.

I knew I did the right thing!!!

BTW, that science project looks great :-)

When my youngest was in 2nd grade, I was asked by the teacher (the Mayor's wife!) to 'guest teach' the classes about Space and Astronomy. My hobby at the time was Astronomy, and often set up my C-8 in the back of the school property for people to view the sky.

I brought in a tall lamp from home, and hung my 2nd-place-winning lunar eclipse photo on the wall, and a volleyball (plus slides and other gimmicks). As I walked around the lamp, the kids could see the Terminator lines rolling across the ball, and finally, I drew their attention to the photo on the wall, where they saw the shadow (in scale!!) of the volleyball finally match up with shadow on the photograph.

It was one of the greatest pleasures in my life to see the look on the faces of these kids when they 'got it'. I ended up doing this presentation for another few years after that (when the teacher retired).

You guys get easy questions.

I get, "why do people die?" which is usually in the form of "why did Mommy die?" or "Does God pee?" or my two sons long line of questions, which start with things like, "Why do people vote when it really doesn't matter anyway?" and ends up with "Why are you such an idiot?"

Of course God pees. That's what rain is.

(Seriously. This was the consensus opinion of my class when I was 9ish. Is it a common conclusion?)

I think it's pretty common. I remember talking about that when I was a kid. Not that I believed in god when I was a kid, but that didn't mean we didn't have these discussions :)

#44: I hate to be a critic, but all those shadows are pointing in different directions. You might want to ask your son what he thinks he needs to fix in order to prompt him into thinking about the model a little more deeply without spoonfeeding the answer. 'Cause when the light and dark sides are lined up properly, it's easier to associate the phase of the moon with its position around the earth relative to the sun.

I remember in 2nd grade when the teacher asked us where we used to think rain came from before learning about the water cycle. Everyone gave their own fantastical answers, ranging from God crying to a tap in the sky. I had to make my myth up because I couldn't remember if I ever had one. Social pressure is a powerful thing.

I always thought that rain was...well rain. and thunder was a very loud noise and would hurt you if you got too close.

Well, my friends and I weren't serious about saying that rain was angels' tears (or god's pee) or that thunder was angels bowling or whatever. It was more a joke we made when we couldn't sleep because of a storm.

A Christian kid told me that it was God crying once. My Muslim mother was angry at me when I repeated that.

>21 chosenrebel:: chosenrebel
It is important to me to raise a child to think for herself without too-early religious instruction she cannot understand.

I don't think that has anything to do with making the world safer. Teaching my daughter about safety is another issue entirely.

Neither am I setting out to make the world "more truthful". I simply want my child to be able to see religion from a reasoning perspective and be aware of each group's pros and cons. (She can then decide 'truth' for herself because it can be subjective.) However, I don't think very young children are capable of that, (not until they're past concrete-operational cognitive development). So, while I answered my daughter's questions, I kept her from attending religious services until she could 1) understand them and 2)show any interest.

>31 Essa:: Essa,
Thank you, you are correct.

The general consensus here actually fits with what I've been doing-- teaching my child about the world's variety. :D

>33 DaynaRT:: Fleela,
I will say the original Pledge of Allegiance, but I refuse to add the religious bits just because Eisenhower thought the nation should be Christian. My daughter chooses to say the whole thing to 'fit in'; that is her choice and it's fine with me.

>39 WholeHouseLibrary:: WholeHouseLibrary,
It bothers me that children should have to put up with religion in order to participate in groups like scouting, but your anecdote shows how important scouting is/was to your children.

>All: I appreciate the book recs and all the personal stories. I think I will also purchase a book of Biblical stories to add to our library. I love to hear how all of you experienced religion or how you're helping your children deal with religion-related experiences. It's all very helpful to me and makes for a wonderful discussion. Thank you!

#47 - When I was 3 yo I asked my dad 'why is the elk?'
I don't remember his answer, I think it would have posed some problems even to an experienced educator as him to explain the question of life to a 3 yo.
(He often retells the question bit, but never the answer part.)

>50 Lunar:
The wooden dowels that hold up the moons can turn, as can the Styrofoam spheres themselves. I didn't bother fixing them for the picture, which was taken months ago. Your 'critique' is a bit late.

I remember that thunder was god bowling.

Can you pee and bowl at the same time?

I remember a "Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy" from the TV show Saturday Night Live. Paraphrased below:

When a child asks, "Why is it raining?", I like to answer,
"Because God is crying."

And, when the child asks "Why is God crying?", I like to
answer "probably because of something YOU did."

:)

>48 Amtep: LOL! That's the consensus my kids were presented with at school, too. After some discussion between themselves, they decided if pee is rain, then thunder must be the sound of farting. When they tried to figure out eating and pooping, they came to the conclusion that the whole thing was a way to lie to children, just like Santa and the tooth fairy. And just like Santa and the tooth fairy, these are lies you're not allowed to expose to other children because the mothers will yell at you for spoiling their fun.

I've come in halfway through this one so apologies if someone has already made my point and I missed it. As the mother of two (boy, now aged 31, girl, now 28) I wanted to give a bit of encouragement to those of you who are finding it hard going.

I think over here (England) our schools are a lot more easy-going on the subject of religion than many American ones (though if Tony Blair had his way . . . . . .) Anyway, I guess that makes it a bit easier for us. Although I don't think my children were ever in any doubt about my own position, I always answered their questions with 'Some people think . . .and other people think . . .' Discussing religion as one of many mythologies, most of which sensible people eventually discard or have already discarded over the years, is a very useful approach. I also couldn't agree more with the person (sorry, I've lost your post now) who advised bringing them up to be open-minded and sceptical. The fact is that kids will hear a lot of lies as they are growing up and it is more important to teach them to think 'Who says so?' What's in it for them? etc about everything than to concentrate on a single issue. Indoctrination either for or against should never be necessary. You have to respect your kids enough to know they're not entirely gullible or foolish.

I don't envy those of you who have strongly religious schools or communities to cope with (funny how most of us have been brought up to respect other people's religions but no-one ever tells them to respect our atheism) but I do believe that once your children are convinced that you are an intelligent, thoughtful human being, they will give your beliefs the serious consideration they deserve (apart from the stage between 12 and 18 when they are convinced you are a moron - I'm afraid nothing's going to change that). Stick with it. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. Although I would hate it if either of my children announced they had 'joined' any religion, at least if it happened now it would be after they'd viewed the matter from both sides and made an educated decision. Though obviously, I'd have to chain them up and lock them in the cellar for the rest of their lives but, hey, isn't that what being a parent is all about?

I think I will also purchase a book of Biblical stories to add to our library.

If you'd enjoy Buddhist stories as well, I have seen and heard good things about a little book called I Once Was a Monkey: Stories Buddha Told by Jeanne M. Lee. It's suitable for all ages (though mainly aimed, I think, at young children), and features a collection of stories in which the Buddha, disguised as various animals, tells stories or fables to show the importance of kindness, friendship, and other virtues. As I said, I'm not a parent so can't speak from that point of view, but our local Asian newsweekly recommended it, and it seems to get good reviews from parents on Amazon.

>61 Essa:: Essa,

Thank you. I have found it difficult to find good books on Buddhism for youngsters. My daughter is interested in Japanese culture, but I think Shintoism and Buddhism are mostly baffling to her.

With the upcoming Olympic games in China and those exiled Tibet so often on the news, she has been asking a lot of questions about the religion and the related socio-political history.

I am so happy this conversation is happening.

After catching up on the 48 messages since the last time I visited, I think I've come to the personal conclusion (for now, anyway) that raising a child to think critically of the world will inherently provide them with the tools to make their own religious choices.

Of course my being atheist will have an affect on that, but my job will be to answer questions, provide information (on all religions, so they can go on to win at Jeopardy), and be supportive of whatever they are into.

It will be interesting to see if I keep these tenants when I actually have a child. It'll be a few years, but I'll keep you posted.

I think I've come to the personal conclusion (for now, anyway) that raising a child to think critically of the world will inherently provide them with the tools to make their own religious choices.

I like this quite a bit. But I'm a bit of a dissenter given the general tenor of the thread. I'm not sure that I'd want to shield my children from religion at all. If anything, I'd hit them with multiple forms and talk with them about the various claims.

Has anyone read Religious Literacy, by Stephen Prothero?

I'm not sure how much I agree with this, despite it being a perfectly reasonable point (and not wishing to offend Jesse or anyone else). As our children will sooner or later find out about religion I guess we do have to tell them something - but would we be looking at that in the same way if we were talking about people who believe the world is controlled by giant lizards (or badgers - you know who you are)? I suspect we would not treat that with a similar respect. I think the above point is more of an agnostic one than an atheist one. Fine for those who aren't sure but not entirely relevant to those of us who see all religions as just more fairy tales.

(Stands back, ducks behind fire screen.)

"I think the above point is more of an agnostic one than an atheist one. Fine for those who aren't sure but not entirely relevant to those of us who see all religions as just more fairy tales."

I can't say that I agree. Referring back to my first post in #3, I think it's essential for people to learn about the varieties of religion, both dead and alive, if one is to realize their common fictiveness (though some fictions more creative than others, which is why I wish that Hindu mythology were more accessible for english speaking children).

No. I think that that's pretty much exactly why I'd think that way. Start 'em with Greek mythology. Give 'em Timothy Leary on the mind beams coming from Sirius. Throw it all at them.

> 66 I wish that Hindu mythology were more accessible for english speaking children
Do you know about Amar Chitra Katha (Wikipedia)?

#68: I haven't heard of that comic book series and it sounds interesting. I'm only familiar with the comic book series founded by Deepak Chopra. I read the issue about Ganesh available online and I wasn't entirely happy with the way it adapted the mythology. I mean, they actually turned Nandi into a minotaur.

> 69 These are much more like Classics Illustrated, and so I guess stand in somewhat the same relation to Virgin Comics as Golden / Silver Age do to today's Angst-laden superheros.

>65 Booksloth: There's more than just the nuts and bolts of religion to be considered. There are whole cultural structures and taboos kids should probably know about but aren't strictly part of religions.

My favorite example of that kind of cultural issue is when we were discussing an event to take place in a church and the snacks that would be part of the ritual. Some of us wanted to know if the snacks were any good. Some were puzzled by the fact not everyone got snacks. The spouse, who is from a J/C/M European based background, was on the floor dying with laughter because they aren't "um, snacks". I think we concluded they were "Important Snacks", not tasty, don't take any, just pass them on.

Imagine what someone's first reactions might be going to a Catholic mass when the priest starts chanting about eating and drinking the flesh and blood of their lord. Makes me want to look up some early Mediterranean literature about the wild rumors on the practices of the early Christians, one account being that a child covered in dough was part of the ceremony and that the others would pick a piece of the dough off the child's body.

This brings up another aspect of religious literacy. It's more than just the myths and stories, it's also about the rituals. I may know a good deal about Greek mythology, but I don't feel like I know very much about the practice of polytheistic religion in Greece other than a few odd stories about the oracle at Delphi.

As our children will sooner or later find out about religion I guess we do have to tell them something - but would we be looking at that in the same way if we were talking about people who believe the world is controlled by giant lizards (or badgers - you know who you are)?
Well, that's about what I think of god/s, so... what's the difference? ;-)

BTW - what says 'thinking critically' and 'shield from religion' are even remotely related? Critical thinking is based on a wide knowledge of just about everything, having the right tools to dissect arguments and 'facts'.

I completely agree with teaching children to think critically (#60). I just think that by making a conscious decision to talk to them about all forms of religion is treating the subject as something more important than it should really be for we 'happy heathens'. Yes, I always answered my children's questions but I felt that to make a point of concentrating our discussions on any kind of religion was to suggest to them that the subject is important. The culture that comes with these beliefs and the ways in which other people choose to interpret them is important, of course - especially if those interpretations lead to conflict or persecution - but that will come soon enough under the heading of social sciences or politics. I didn't make a point of specifically teaching my children about every fairy tale that has ever been written and, in the same way, I saw little point in teaching them about every religion either. While it's not a problem if they go through life never having heard about the billy-goats gruff, the problem with religion is that by talking about any at all, you end up making choices about some being more 'important' than others.

Busifer - you ask what is the difference? My point exactly. I don't think there is any difference. Do all the people who want to teach their chikdren about religions in general teach them about that one too? I don't know, of course, but I suspect not.

I'm extremely upset to discover that this group is populated by lizard-hating asaurists. Our Saurian Overlords love us, guide us, and provide for us, and they only eat people when it is part of their great Plan for us. That you reject their gifts and openly mock them... well, that's between you and the Great Hidden Ones (but don't be surprised if you're next on the menu!). All I ask is that you respect my beliefs.

>64 Jesse_wiedinmyer:: Jesse-I read Religious Literacy last year and have been thinking about it through the latter parts of this thread. So much of public discourse (for good or ill-that's moot for this point) is directed by religious language. Not having a clear understanding of WHY religion is important to people is stripping a child of an important facet in critical thinking. By suggesting that religious belief is "just" supersitious or mythological thinking, you first denegrate the importance of both supersition and myth, you also take away alot of insight. Whether we agree or not or like it, religion is a very important thing for many people-most people-in this country and the world.

It's also very useful to be able to speak in religious language when talking with the very religious. For example, when talking about my green streak with my in-laws (the folks who almost foam at the mouth at any mention of Al Gore), I don't talk about environmentalism, I talk about stewardship of the earth. It allows us to skirt the political aspects of the conversation and talk about the important thing-recycle your freaking newspapers! I don't have to believe in it to understand that it's very useful when trying to frame a conversation.

My mother and I do disagree a bit on how much Christianity should be taught as myth to my son (of course, I'm the mom so I win, but it's made for some interesting Christmases). At every holiday (or at least, every one we mark with some kind of celebration, which is ALOT of them-any excuse for a party), it's important to me that my son knows exactly what we're celebrating. He doesn't have to believe it (and I doubt he will-that whole autism thing), but he does have to have the historical and cultural knowledge to know why it's celebrated.

Hail Xenu

#75 I never said I hated you or other lizards! I'm quite fond of lizards actually. Although I can, do and will respect you, I can't respect your beliefs, I'm afraid. It's not the same thing thing at all.

>74 Booksloth: I agree. It's not really any more or less important than many other things, except some are more important than others. The ones your neighbors buy into are more important than the ones practiced 10,000 miles away.

In North America, as early as late pre-school/early elementary school, religion starts popping up on the playground. The canned response to some playground disagreements is going be "you're going to go to hell" or "because God says so". So it's more than just social sciences or politics.

As kids get older it changes but it never goes away, invitations to religous camp, "mosh-pitting for Jesus", etc. How a family handles that kind of thing needs to be clear to the kids as well as the parents. We've always taken the 'we don't try to convince them and it's rude of them to be trying to recruit us' position, so no church camps, etc. We compensate in other fun ways like inviting children to the beach or amusement park.

The hard part now is the no trash talking rule. Usually begun with some kind of declaration of war, a la "I can't believe you won't help me (lie to my parents)! You don't have any morals because you don't go to our church! I'm not your friend anymore!" I have to admit a certain guilty pleasure in watching the rigidly religiously dogmatic cement my values in my teens.

It's not really any more or less important than many other things, except some are more important than others. The ones your neighbors buy into are more important than the ones practiced 10,000 miles away.

Although, I would say that, in today's increasingly globalized, interconnected world, the beliefs and practices of the people 10,000 away are becoming more important. Those beliefs and practices can, and do, get tied up with our own country's foreign policy decisions as well as trade and economics and the like. So it seems good to be educated about them as much as possible, at least in my opinion.

Good for you, mvrdrk! Sometimes it's almost too easy, isn't it. Must admit that kind of thing's less of a problem over here. We may have such things as 'religious camps' but nobody I know has ever been asked to one. Apart from the odd (and you can take that 'odd' any way you like) door-knocker or 'shouting guy' in some towns we find it pretty easy to avoid that kind of thing.

>80 Essa: I agree in general, but when dealing with 5 year olds, foreign policy and trade decisions are rather limited in scope. Personally, foreign relations meant no one was screaming or bleeding all over the floor and trade involved digestives and watermelon more than oil futures.

Kaelirenee, thanks for the response in #76.

ref 76

"Not having a clear understanding of WHY religion is important to people is stripping a child of an important facet in critical thinking."

You know why religion persists into the modern age
?
Quick, write it down and prepare for your trip to Stockholm.

PS. I'ld really like to know, so dont be shy. Tell tell.

"By suggesting that religious belief is "just" supersitious or mythological thinking, you first denegrate the importance of both supersition and myth, you also take away alot of insight."

I suppose that religion is a more complicated phenomenon that being "just" this or "just" that.

One definition of superstition is "seeing correlations where none in fact exists" ...something like "bad luck to break a mirror or to have ones path crossed by
a black cat",,,that sort of thing. Charming folk beliefs I suppose but taking them seriously would be foolish. Similarly, much literary merit has been read into various of the greek myths and into the myths of other cultures. They are fascinating in themselves and yes, some of them show interesting insight into
psychology and what I suppose we can call "the human condition". Do you know the Navajo myth of the feud between men and women? But standing outside the myths and appreciating them as literature is a whole 'nother thing from taking them as serious descriptions of how the world works or what to say the the guardians of the land of the dead.

" Whether we agree or not or like it, religion is a very important thing for many people-most people-in this country and the world."

Fair enough, but isnt the irrationality something that we should be trying to cure, not encourage?

"isnt the irrationality something that we should be trying to cure, not encourage?"

Maybe a good analogue would be how parents teach their kids to tell the difference between fantasy and reality when it comes to TV or videogames? Going by that model I'd think you could teach about various religions without them buying into the belief system.

>85 Lunar:
Exactly!

Not everyone thinks religion or religious belief is irrational-and I suppose that's the crux of the atheist vs theist argument. I think teaching my child respect and critical thinking are both important, as is learning to pick battles. For instance, I've decided to ignore the moment of silence in his public classroom. I do not and will not abide by him learning anything short of evolution in his classroom when it comes to understanding how organisms develop (see posts 39 and 40 to get a little better understanding of my town). He is to be respectful of the abstract (the moment of silence, the idea that there might be deities, etc), but when solid proof exists (evolution), we don't back down.

Is this in the US!? I'm pretty sure the US Supreme Court ruled "moments of silence" illegal.

Not being American, I don't know what your 'moments of silence' are all about, but I must say I take my hat off to anyone who can get even just a moment of silence out of a classroom full of kids.

Yup, it's in the US. And no, moments of silence are not illegal or unconsititutional (check it out .) Classroom prayers are. Kids say the pledge to the US flag, then the Texas flag (another new addition from my school days) and then a moment of silence that seriously isn't even long enough for a Hail Mary.

Is there a little gap in all this when they get educated? (This from someone who lives in a country where they pretty much pay kids to go to school and still half of them leave barely able to spell their own names.)

re. #87: "I think teaching my child respect and critical thinking are both important, as is learning to pick battles."

Yeah, but avoiding bad situations is even better. You'd warn your kid to diligently avoid dogs foaming at the mouth if there was a rabies outbreak, wouldn't you? Encouraging them to "respect" fundamentalists and other religion-obsessed types is a bit like saying "oh, you can pet the doggie".

I'm raising my kids to suspect ANYBODY who is "religious" as being a potential threat ... until the person's proven to not be delusional in how they deal with their "imaginary friend(s)", I'd rather my kids steered clear of them. After all, how much difference is there between a psychotic who claimed that "Jesus told me to kill the children!" and, say, Abraham? I don't want my kids associating with people who are anti-rational as a default behavior!

Respect is something that should be earned not handed out to every lunatic that's been indoctrinated into some sociopathic fairy tale!

 

#92 You put that just exactly the way I wish I had. An analogy I used elsewhere was the person who thinks they are Napoleon: I may like this person, I may feel sorry for them, I may even respect them as an individual but I cannot, in all honesty, respect a belief they hold that I can see is 100% erroneous.

You better stay away from me then. And for God's sake, don't ever let your kids interact with me.

I don't dictate to my kids who they can or can't interact with, I'm afraid.

Well you should at least warn them about me. I am a very scary person.

Done that. I've also told them that I suspect you're harmless and that your courage in speaking up for your beliefs is indeed to be respected. To be honest, I have possibly more admiration for someone who has strong beliefs and is unafraid to stand up for them than I have for people who don't really think about these issues and are scared to death of being yelled at. I don't think that's at all the same thing, though, as respecting those beliefs in themselves.

ET correct terrible grammar.

"Respect is something that should be earned not handed out to every lunatic that's been indoctrinated into some sociopathic fairy tale!"

I agree to a certain extent, but I think that anyone who want to successfully navigate society has to give someone the benefit of the doubt, at least when starting off. If I meet someone, I'm going to treat them with a level of respect and hope they reciprocate. Whether they live up to it or not is up to them and my level of respect will change accordingly. I just think that "earning respect" shouldn't mean the same thing as starting from zero. There are plenty of religious people who are not interventionist when it comes to their beliefs and who properly abide by "live and let live."

>#94...I think you've proven not to be delusional. Crazy for living in Alaska, maybe, but not delusional.

Yeah, but avoiding bad situations is even better. You'd warn your kid to diligently avoid dogs foaming at the mouth if there was a rabies outbreak, wouldn't you? Encouraging them to "respect" fundamentalists and other religion-obsessed types is a bit like saying "oh, you can pet the doggie".

And there is the major difference between you and I. First of all, I don't the analogy is appropriate. Respecting someone's religious beliefs--something most people now and in human history have had--is not the same as petting a rabid dog. Whether you agree with them or not, most people who have faith in a higher power are not evil. There's been plenty of debate on this board about whether or not it makes them crazy or can make them better people for having their beliefs, so I won't rehash all that here. But I do think (from my own experience and from my own observations) that religious belief can give people comfort and a reason for constant improvement. Part of learning critical thinking is learning the difference between these people and the people who use religion as a weapon (fundies et al.)-if my son can't tell the difference between these groups, I will have failed him. Making them scared of all dogs because one might have rabies somewhere is just as much of a disservice. It's better to teach him the symptoms to look for-this is what a healthy, petable dog looks like; this is what a rabid dog looks like. And it's not just dogs who are rabid.

Plus, chances are very good that your child will have constant interactions with people who are not atheists-just like mine with have interactions with people who aren't Pagan, white, autistic, or liberal. Being a good citizen (IMO) means being able to interact with these people in a respectful manner. The only other option is to isolate yourself, and I'm not one for communes.

Finally, there are enough things to worry about as a parent. I'd rather teach my child to be respectful of the idea of faith and allow him to make his own conclusions based on fact and good thinking skills than constantly worry that he might encounter religion somewhere and that the first mention of religion will damage my nice, agnostic existence for him.

#100 - actually #92 said 'fundamentalists', not 'people professing faith in a deity or supernatural being'.
So, basically you mean the same thing - it's OK to pet doggies, but it'd be wise to stay away from that rabid one.

?

#100 The way you put it, it's like some of the atheist parents are saying "just say no" to religious belief and believers. Like it will necessarily infect them and ruin their lives. Don't learn about it, don't differentiate between harmful and less risky behaviour, just say no.

I guess that's how they feel about it. But it doesn't sound any more useful than applying the same logic to drugs. Plus they might miss out on some great sermons from Arctic.

I was raised to be completely uninformed about all religions (my parents just skipped over that stuff in the same way they skipped over all the stuff about sex and dating, probably because it was too hard), but I figured it out on my own when I was older. It did lead to an embarassing moment the first time I was informed by my peers that, yes, they really take all that Jesus stuff seriously.

I went through various phases once I found out that was true (denial, anger, bargaining etc.), but at this point I have settled on "Respect the believer, be wary of the belief."

>100 kaelirenee: Yes, there are dogs which are not safe to approach, but not rabid either.

I'm not sure respect is strictly necessary. One of mine assumes everyone is a blathering idiot until proven otherwise. Most of the time, that involves being polite and feigning interest (as with most teens, some days that means snarling equally at all).

I think what's really necessary is a way to handle people who won't leave you alone in a socially acceptable manner. From an external viewpoint, someone carrying on about their religion behaves no different than someone carrying on about their favorite team. I don't think fans are any less impassioned, enthusiastic, sincere, well meaning, or emotionally invested, even though the topic may not be as important.

We seem to have settled on - be polite, change the subject, extricate yourself as soon as socially acceptable. When they were small and only dealing with other children, the solution was to agree that that's what the other person thought (an absolute truth!) and find a reason to leave. It was pretty easy to teach as it's rather boring having someone telling you how you have to follow the rules of some invisible being, especially when the ultimate wielder of lower grade power, the teacher, is tangible.

Now, if someone on the street randomly starts ranting and shouting at you, it doesn't matter what the subject is, the correct behavior is to ignore them and leave.

Edited to fix speling.

ref #87
"Not everyone thinks religion or religious belief is irrational-and I suppose that's the crux of the atheist vs theist argument."

Not everyone thinks the earth is rounder than it is flat.
What everyone thinks doesnt have much bearing on the case.

Belief (particular beliefs, anyway) are either well founded or they're not. One argument between atheists and subscribers to one belief system or another is indeed an argument over whether the belief is or is not well founded.

Another argument is over whether it is good or wise to believe in things with insufficient foundation.

>103 weener:: weener,

"Respect the believer, be wary of the belief."

Good motto.

Some Christians have a statement that is similiar, at least for their purposes. "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

Frankly I am not sure how possible that is.

"Love the sinner, hate the sin."

Frankly I am not sure how possible that is.

And yet, it is a worthy ideal, just as Respect the believer, be wary of the belief is.

If a known compulsive liar tells you something, you won't believe them. But it's not appropriate to take away his ability to say anything because of it.

Re. #104: "One of mine assumes everyone is a blathering idiot until proven otherwise."

Heh ... that's another "rule of thumb" that I, personally, find very useful (as it is only extremely rarely proved wrong)!

 

Unfortunately, everyone includes me. And you.