1DebiCates
Simon Armitage's translation of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
INTRODUCTION
PART I
PART II (this thread)
PART III
PART IV
FINAL THOUGHTS
Discussion for PART II covering stanzas #22-45 (lines 491-1125)
INTRODUCTION
PART I
PART II (this thread)
PART III
PART IV
FINAL THOUGHTS
Discussion for PART II covering stanzas #22-45 (lines 491-1125)
3elenchus
>2 TonjaE: A somewhat menacing illustration, with those following wolves!
4elenchus
In this first part of Fitt II, it all goes fairly quickly: from Winter to Spring and Autumn, it's as though this need only be passed over quickly, for we know what's coming:
And Gawain had been glad to begin the game,
but don't be shocked if the plot turns pear-shaped
We've been told from the first that this "game" won't be fun, and in just two stanzas the year has almost passed, it's Michaelmas and "a warning to Gawain" that he needs to go. And yet he doesn't: next stanza we learn a month has passed and he's still there for the All Saints Day feast! This will happen again later in this Fitt, Gawain partying or feasting with friends instead of moving forward to meet his responsibilities.
But finally he readies to go, only for the poet to spend as much time on his raimant as spent on the first 9 months of the year. It seems to me the next stanzas describing his armour and the account of the pentangle are borrowed stories "inserted" into the Gawain quest story. The poet even admits,
And why the pentangle was appropriate to that prince
I intend to say, though it will stall our story.
But finally Gawain goes, and he rides through England and Wales, yet with no luck in finding the green chapel or even anyone who's heard of it.
It's only when he prays to find it, that it appears.
And Gawain had been glad to begin the game,
but don't be shocked if the plot turns pear-shaped
We've been told from the first that this "game" won't be fun, and in just two stanzas the year has almost passed, it's Michaelmas and "a warning to Gawain" that he needs to go. And yet he doesn't: next stanza we learn a month has passed and he's still there for the All Saints Day feast! This will happen again later in this Fitt, Gawain partying or feasting with friends instead of moving forward to meet his responsibilities.
But finally he readies to go, only for the poet to spend as much time on his raimant as spent on the first 9 months of the year. It seems to me the next stanzas describing his armour and the account of the pentangle are borrowed stories "inserted" into the Gawain quest story. The poet even admits,
And why the pentangle was appropriate to that prince
I intend to say, though it will stall our story.
But finally Gawain goes, and he rides through England and Wales, yet with no luck in finding the green chapel or even anyone who's heard of it.
It's only when he prays to find it, that it appears.
5DebiCates
Whew. I'm back and the party is still going on.
Stanza 22: These dudes did not let a little ol' beheading put them off their merriment. Then, suddenly, it's summer. That was quick. I did, though, enjoy the brief Armitage/anonymous' descriptions of the seasons. Sometimes they do seem to go that fast. Especially if your name might be Gawain and it was you who chopped of the head of the Green Knight and he just put it back on.
Stanza 23: Autumn was lovely. I liked the lines
Then autumn arrives to harden the harvest
and with it comes a warning to ripen before winter.
And whoops the wheel of the bob and wheel here was a bit wobbly.
Stanza 24: I have a feeling Gawain is an untried knight, getting the position, as he said, just because he was Arthur's nephew. However, he surely must replay that chopping off of the Green Knight's head off over and over in his mind, knowing the next head to roll around on the ground will be his. And to have to go in the miserable winter to boot.
Stanza 25: Wonder how Gawain will undress himself to sleep? Or will he sleep in his armor? I suppose he must. Ugh: heading out to he doesn't know where, in the winter, and without a valet to undress him all just to have his own head cut off. Seriously, it sounds perfectly awful. Worst rode trip ever.
Stanza 22: These dudes did not let a little ol' beheading put them off their merriment. Then, suddenly, it's summer. That was quick. I did, though, enjoy the brief Armitage/anonymous' descriptions of the seasons. Sometimes they do seem to go that fast. Especially if your name might be Gawain and it was you who chopped of the head of the Green Knight and he just put it back on.
Stanza 23: Autumn was lovely. I liked the lines
Then autumn arrives to harden the harvest
and with it comes a warning to ripen before winter.
And whoops the wheel of the bob and wheel here was a bit wobbly.
Stanza 24: I have a feeling Gawain is an untried knight, getting the position, as he said, just because he was Arthur's nephew. However, he surely must replay that chopping off of the Green Knight's head off over and over in his mind, knowing the next head to roll around on the ground will be his. And to have to go in the miserable winter to boot.
Stanza 25: Wonder how Gawain will undress himself to sleep? Or will he sleep in his armor? I suppose he must. Ugh: heading out to he doesn't know where, in the winter, and without a valet to undress him all just to have his own head cut off. Seriously, it sounds perfectly awful. Worst rode trip ever.
6elenchus
I noticed in the second half of Fitt II, with Gawain within the castle, there are several explicit mentions of Mass and observation of Lent. Significant because revelations in later Fitts, regarding the identity of this Lord and his knights and ladies. Seemingly, Gawain is in good Christian company.
Another observation: nowhere in Fitt II is the Lord identified except as the ruler of the castle. There are several scenes in which chivalry and good manners would seemingly make it difficult for Gawain not to be introduced: he spends considerable time with Her Ladyship, for example. He "makes himself known to knights and nobles" (Stanza 35), presumably by formally introducing himself. And it's clear these others know precisely with whom they consort. Initially I assumed the we would get some names, as we did in Fitt I with the various Knights of the Round Table! But no, to the reader at least these are all anonymous.
Another observation: nowhere in Fitt II is the Lord identified except as the ruler of the castle. There are several scenes in which chivalry and good manners would seemingly make it difficult for Gawain not to be introduced: he spends considerable time with Her Ladyship, for example. He "makes himself known to knights and nobles" (Stanza 35), presumably by formally introducing himself. And it's clear these others know precisely with whom they consort. Initially I assumed the we would get some names, as we did in Fitt I with the various Knights of the Round Table! But no, to the reader at least these are all anonymous.
7elenchus
I mentioned in the thread for PART I that there was a second instance of a decision being made before a person identifies themself to the decider. Here in Fitt II, Gawain so far as I can determine agrees to the bargain of exchanging what is gained "for worse or for better" at the end of each day, the Lord giving to Gawain the spoils of the hunt and Gawain in return giving whatever he has gained whiling away in the castle.
This would seem to be at odds with chivalry and honour, if not outright conflicting with its explicit demands! It's possible, of course, that these characters introduced themselves to one another "off stage" as it were, and only the reader is ignorant. But wait: later in the poem an explicit introduction is made, implying it was not made before that point.
But why? Why would Gawain make such sincere pledges without knowing with whom he's dealing? And so far, twice!
This would seem to be at odds with chivalry and honour, if not outright conflicting with its explicit demands! It's possible, of course, that these characters introduced themselves to one another "off stage" as it were, and only the reader is ignorant. But wait: later in the poem an explicit introduction is made, implying it was not made before that point.
But why? Why would Gawain make such sincere pledges without knowing with whom he's dealing? And so far, twice!
8DebiCates
Stanza 26. Gringolet. ha, we even know Gawain's horse's name! They certain look the part of Knight on his Trusty Steed, don't they?
I'm loving that "inner rhyming." I thought it might get old, but instead it remains lovely to "hear."
Stanza 27: Uh oh. Where is the pentagram on the shield in the Folio illustration above? Perhaps it's on the interior? ETA: aha, the next stanza says it's on the inside.
Stanza 28: I had never heard of the five joys of Mary before. Google AI says, "The traditional Five Joys of Mary, often referenced in medieval literature like Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and early English carols, are: 1. The Annunciation, 2. The Nativity, 3. The Resurrection, 4. The Ascension, and 5. The Assumption" How very different her joys are to those of all the world's ordinary mothers.
Gawain now has a personality for the readers, a darn good one. Politeness and pity especially seemed poignant (now I'm doing inner rhymes) in these days when some current, er, icy knights seem to lack exactly that.
Stanza 29: An aptly tearful parting for all.
on the broad silk border, and with birds on the seams 610
such as painted parrots perched among periwinkles
and turtle-doves and true-love-knots, tightly entwined
as if women had worked at it seven winters
I'm loving that "inner rhyming." I thought it might get old, but instead it remains lovely to "hear."
Stanza 27: Uh oh. Where is the pentagram on the shield in the Folio illustration above? Perhaps it's on the interior? ETA: aha, the next stanza says it's on the inside.
Stanza 28: I had never heard of the five joys of Mary before. Google AI says, "The traditional Five Joys of Mary, often referenced in medieval literature like Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and early English carols, are: 1. The Annunciation, 2. The Nativity, 3. The Resurrection, 4. The Ascension, and 5. The Assumption" How very different her joys are to those of all the world's ordinary mothers.
The fifth set of five which I heard the knight followed
included friendship and fraternity with fellow men,
purity and politeness that impressed at all times,
and pity, which surpassed all pointedness. Five things
which meant more to Gawain than to most other men
Gawain now has a personality for the readers, a darn good one. Politeness and pity especially seemed poignant (now I'm doing inner rhymes) in these days when some current, er, icy knights seem to lack exactly that.
Stanza 29: An aptly tearful parting for all.
9DebiCates
Stanza 30: Being an American, it always strikes me when myth mentions real places. America hasn't been around long enough for myth settings to be a thing. Or rather, the ancient myths of America are not well known to us, but tucked away with our Indigenous Peoples.
Stanza 31: Yowza. His trek was more miserable than I envisioned--wolves and wodwos, a bitter winter, little food, and no one knows of a green knight or a green castle. The poem has rather skimmed through this part. I bet a movie could make very good use of this part. Ends on Christmas Eve, exactly when he's supposed to make his rendez-vous.
Stanza 32: What he prays for, though, is not to guide him his destination, but simply a place to hear mass. Ever Good Gawain.
Stanza 33: His prayer is answered.
Stanza 31: Yowza. His trek was more miserable than I envisioned--wolves and wodwos, a bitter winter, little food, and no one knows of a green knight or a green castle. The poem has rather skimmed through this part. I bet a movie could make very good use of this part. Ends on Christmas Eve, exactly when he's supposed to make his rendez-vous.
Stanza 32: What he prays for, though, is not to guide him his destination, but simply a place to hear mass. Ever Good Gawain.
Stanza 33: His prayer is answered.
10amanda4242
>9 DebiCates: no one knows of a green knight or a green castle.
And the Green Knight assured him "even a fool couldn't fail to find me." (455) Guess people giving bad directions is not a new thing.
I bet a movie could make very good use of this part.
One would think that, but The Green Knight {2021 film} managed to make it so freaking boring.
And the Green Knight assured him "even a fool couldn't fail to find me." (455) Guess people giving bad directions is not a new thing.
I bet a movie could make very good use of this part.
One would think that, but The Green Knight {2021 film} managed to make it so freaking boring.
11elenchus
>8 DebiCates: Gringolet
Again mention of a name, for a seemingly minor creature in the story, which for me only casts in relief the names unmentioned. I fear I'll return to this (dead horse) in Part III, so consider yourself warned.
>10 amanda4242: I had to laugh at your reference to the 2021 film, I was saving it as a recommendation for when we finish our group read. But this shows why there's no accounting for taste: I screened it last year and adored it, and am looking forward to rewatching now that I've read the poem and not simply glossed the story. But of course, YMMV!
Again mention of a name, for a seemingly minor creature in the story, which for me only casts in relief the names unmentioned. I fear I'll return to this (dead horse) in Part III, so consider yourself warned.
>10 amanda4242: I had to laugh at your reference to the 2021 film, I was saving it as a recommendation for when we finish our group read. But this shows why there's no accounting for taste: I screened it last year and adored it, and am looking forward to rewatching now that I've read the poem and not simply glossed the story. But of course, YMMV!
12amanda4242
>11 elenchus: I saw it in the theatre with my mother and apologized for subjecting her to it. I'd much rather watch Sword of the Valiant; it's kind of a crap movie, but at least Sean Connery seemed to be enjoying himself as the Green Knight.
13DebiCates
>10 amanda4242: And the Green Knight assured him "even a fool couldn't fail to find me." (455) Guess people giving bad directions is not a new thing.
LOL!!!
And uh oh about the film. I haven't seen it but planned to after finishing. I'll be thinking of you in the freaking boring parts, Amanda. ;)
LOL!!!
And uh oh about the film. I haven't seen it but planned to after finishing. I'll be thinking of you in the freaking boring parts, Amanda. ;)
14amanda4242
>13 DebiCates: They also threw in a gratuitous—and sleazy—sex scene.
15DebiCates
>12 amanda4242: Oh, there are TWO films made of this poem? I think we need to add both to the topic Poets and Poetry in films, https://www.librarything.com/topic/376053
Sean Connery, eh? Nice. That makes two films in which a green man featured in one of his films. Both kind of crappy. ha!
Sean Connery, eh? Nice. That makes two films in which a green man featured in one of his films. Both kind of crappy. ha!
16DebiCates
>14 amanda4242: I fast forward through sex scenes now in my old age. Talk about boring.
17amanda4242
>15 DebiCates: I think there are four, actually: Sword of the Valiant, Gawain and the Green Knight, the 2021 version, and one more from the 90s.
>16 DebiCates: I don't mind them in movies, but will skim them in books because so few people can write an interesting sex scene.
ETA: I found the 1991 version on Youtube!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBEv8xjBJf8
>16 DebiCates: I don't mind them in movies, but will skim them in books because so few people can write an interesting sex scene.
ETA: I found the 1991 version on Youtube!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBEv8xjBJf8
18DebiCates
>17 amanda4242: Four! Amazing. Definitely needs to be in the film topic.
Sex is one of those things that is fun to do but not as much fun to watch (I'm definitely in a minority in that opinion). I find it's Kind of like fishing. Fun to do but not watch someone else do.
Have you ever seen the 1974 film Zardoz? I saw it ages ago and can't help but think of it every time I think of Connery.
Sex is one of those things that is fun to do but not as much fun to watch (I'm definitely in a minority in that opinion). I find it's Kind of like fishing. Fun to do but not watch someone else do.
Have you ever seen the 1974 film Zardoz? I saw it ages ago and can't help but think of it every time I think of Connery.
19elenchus
>16 DebiCates: Huh. I'd forgotten the sex scene. That probably says something about me as well as the boring movie.
20DebiCates
>17 amanda4242: VERY cool! I'll treat myself to that when I complete the poem. This is my first reading of it and I've never seen a film of it.
21DebiCates
>19 elenchus: LOL, another sign of aging, my friend. Actually, myself I think that it's another sign of discernment that comes with aging. Although, I confess, there are a few scenes in films from back in the day that burn in my memory still.
22amanda4242
>18 DebiCates: I've never gotten around to that one. When I think of Connery, I think James Bond.
23amanda4242
>19 elenchus: I remembered the sex scene specifically because Gawain, um, failed to give his host everything he got that day.
24DebiCates
>22 amanda4242: You may not want to watch it. Better to think of him first as James Bond, not as the strange diaper-wearing dude in Zardoz.
26DebiCates
>25 amanda4242: I'm pretty sure it is. It might be the weirdest campy film I've ever seen.
27amanda4242
>26 DebiCates: Now I have to see it!
28DebiCates
>27 amanda4242: LOL! I would have reacted the same way. But don't be mad at me if you do watch it, okay?
29DebiCates
Stanza 41: I know this is part of the code of chivalry, but it does seem like it is always a risk to get that cozy with a Lord's Lady.
Stanza 42: Will Gawain leave? I thought he stayed and ... well, keep reading, Debi.
Stanza 43: Oh, okay. The Lord (still has no name?) knows where the green chapel is and it's only two miles away. So, Gawain can stay and luxuriate for three more days.
Stanza 44: Is this normal behavior? For the Lord to leave and throw his Lady and a knight together like that? Or is he now under the wicked spell as hinted by
Stanza 42: Will Gawain leave? I thought he stayed and ... well, keep reading, Debi.
Stanza 43: Oh, okay. The Lord (still has no name?) knows where the green chapel is and it's only two miles away. So, Gawain can stay and luxuriate for three more days.
Stanza 44: Is this normal behavior? For the Lord to leave and throw his Lady and a knight together like that? Or is he now under the wicked spell as hinted by
the lips of the lord ran wild with words,
like the mouth of a madman, not knowing his own mind
30DebiCates
Stanza 45: The famous proposal, in addition to the first one Gawain took up,
I wonder if the design of this particular game will be revealed--was it the Lord's own idea, was it pre-planned by him or the wicked old lady? Or something completely different?
End of Part II.
Here's a wager: what I win in the woods will be yours,
and what you gain while I'm gone you will give to me.
I wonder if the design of this particular game will be revealed--was it the Lord's own idea, was it pre-planned by him or the wicked old lady? Or something completely different?
That lord knew more than most
which tricks would entertain!
End of Part II.
31DebiCates
>4 elenchus: This will happen again later in this Fitt, Gawain partying or feasting with friends instead of moving forward to meet his responsibilities.
Do you think we are supposed to infer those delays as some hint of short-comings by Gawain? Or somehow a lesson, a moral?
I, too, feel that the Christian motifs feel a bit pasted on, heavy-handedly, as if the story has been known pre-Christianity. And, as you note, the poet seemingly admits as much, that he has to "explain" it.
Do you think we are supposed to infer those delays as some hint of short-comings by Gawain? Or somehow a lesson, a moral?
I, too, feel that the Christian motifs feel a bit pasted on, heavy-handedly, as if the story has been known pre-Christianity. And, as you note, the poet seemingly admits as much, that he has to "explain" it.
32DebiCates
>6 elenchus: It will be interesting when I get done with the poem to go back, as you have, and reconsider certain details, like is the Lord of the castle truly a good Christian, a man of good character and chivalry? Or is he something else, a pawn, perhaps a co-conspirator. (I know who he really is, but I don't know exactly how that plays out.)
33DebiCates
>7 elenchus: Why would Gawain make such sincere pledges without knowing with whom he's dealing?
It's a good question. Puzzling. I figured Gawain had to be introduced, off-stage. And are all English lord supposed to be known to one another? I mean, would Gawain recognize the name as honorable? Or perhaps we are supposed to understand that Gawain is going simply by the accruements of a nobleman? The castle, the feasts, the beautiful interior, the exceedingly beautiful wife? I keep thinking of Gawain as an untried greenhorn. Would any other of King Arthur's knights be more suspicious?
It's a good question. Puzzling. I figured Gawain had to be introduced, off-stage. And are all English lord supposed to be known to one another? I mean, would Gawain recognize the name as honorable? Or perhaps we are supposed to understand that Gawain is going simply by the accruements of a nobleman? The castle, the feasts, the beautiful interior, the exceedingly beautiful wife? I keep thinking of Gawain as an untried greenhorn. Would any other of King Arthur's knights be more suspicious?
34DebiCates
In general, I do find thus far it interesting what the poet decides to linger and not to linger on. The parts that could have been exciting (the wandering, looking for the green chapel) could have been filled with adventure, but instead we are given more detail about how a castle makes merry. Wonder if that is because the audience--provided they were not of the nobility--might enjoy hearing and imagining that more?
Was this an old oral tradition story?
Was this an old oral tradition story?
35TonjaE
This is all highly entertaining, thank you all. I have sore cheeks from smiling at your conversation and my dogs haven't heard me giggle this much in a while.
36elenchus
Yes, all these musings seem relevant to me, as well. I also know broadly how the story unfolds, so I'm asking questions here (trying to avoid spoilers) when in most cases I know the basic answer. But as noted in >32 DebiCates:, just not sure of how it specifically plays out: what details are stated, and what I simply infer or think I remember.
37amanda4242
>28 DebiCates: I promise not to get mad at you. And as bad as I'm sure it is, I'm equally sure it won't be the worst movie I've ever seen.
