1timspalding
We recently had a submission to change the place page from New Zealand to Aotearoa New Zealand. I'm sympathetic, but not convinced we should go this way.
For context, New Zealand is the English name for the country, and Aotearoa the Māori name. Combining them is absolutely done—I know I saw it a lot when I was there. I think it's a good solution—a single name representing the complex reality. But, as the Wikipedia page puts it:
The same brings up a variety of other issues, like Burma or Myanmar, Turkey or Türkiye, etc.(1) It brings up the question "Why not just call every country by their own name?"—not that this would solve the NZ issue!
I think the rule has to be simple and clear and without room for debate. Using the country's own name doesn't feel like the LibraryThing solution, which favors recognizable and popular options. (Quick, is Albania north or south of Shqipëri?)
I propose the following rule: LibraryThing follow the English Wikipedia page's main name.
That means New Zealand, Myanmar, Turkey. Those aren't my choices—I'd be fine with Aotearoa New Zealand and I'd prefer Burma for the same reason the US State Department prefers it (not recognizing the government that changed it). But they are dead simple choices, easily defended.
What do you think?
1. I have strong feelings about "Turkey." When I speak Turkish (badly) I call it Türkiye. But not when I speak English. You will sometimes hear Turks demand the name, as a sign of respect. Why not call a country what its residents call it? Okay. So why is Hellas (Greece) called Yunanistan in Turkish? Why is Shqipëri (Albania) called Arnavutluk? Why is Deutschland (Germany) called Almanya? Georgia (Sakartvelo) called Gürcistan? Etc.
For context, New Zealand is the English name for the country, and Aotearoa the Māori name. Combining them is absolutely done—I know I saw it a lot when I was there. I think it's a good solution—a single name representing the complex reality. But, as the Wikipedia page puts it:
"Similarly the Māori and English names for the whole country are sometimes used together (Aotearoa New Zealand); however, this has no official recognition." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand)
The same brings up a variety of other issues, like Burma or Myanmar, Turkey or Türkiye, etc.(1) It brings up the question "Why not just call every country by their own name?"—not that this would solve the NZ issue!
I think the rule has to be simple and clear and without room for debate. Using the country's own name doesn't feel like the LibraryThing solution, which favors recognizable and popular options. (Quick, is Albania north or south of Shqipëri?)
I propose the following rule: LibraryThing follow the English Wikipedia page's main name.
That means New Zealand, Myanmar, Turkey. Those aren't my choices—I'd be fine with Aotearoa New Zealand and I'd prefer Burma for the same reason the US State Department prefers it (not recognizing the government that changed it). But they are dead simple choices, easily defended.
What do you think?
1. I have strong feelings about "Turkey." When I speak Turkish (badly) I call it Türkiye. But not when I speak English. You will sometimes hear Turks demand the name, as a sign of respect. Why not call a country what its residents call it? Okay. So why is Hellas (Greece) called Yunanistan in Turkish? Why is Shqipëri (Albania) called Arnavutluk? Why is Deutschland (Germany) called Almanya? Georgia (Sakartvelo) called Gürcistan? Etc.
2MarthaJeanne
Also, what would you do with countries like Switzerland where several languages are spoken with different names?
3LeslieWx
I think it's probably good to have a standard set of country names, especially since someone just told us to get to work filling in author birth/residence/death/burial places! Either that, or somebody will have to write something that hides under the hood to harmonize name variants for each country.
In a recently past life I spent a lot of time "harmonizing variable names" and producing a "standard vocabulary" as well as some rules for extensions. I'm shuddering a little as I recall the effort.
The English Wikipedia page's main name seems a reasonable choice.
In a recently past life I spent a lot of time "harmonizing variable names" and producing a "standard vocabulary" as well as some rules for extensions. I'm shuddering a little as I recall the effort.
The English Wikipedia page's main name seems a reasonable choice.
4davidgn
>3 LeslieWx: And the Wikipedia/Wikidata names for each country in each language seem like a first stab at a reasonable off-the-shelf alias mapping for the localized LTs.
5keristars
I've been going by the English Wikipedia when choosing places and names for some time, at least when I can. See Margarita, a Legend of the Fight for the Great River's CK for some of the names I tracked down.
My thinking was that if someone wants more information about the CK name/place, Wikipedia is an easy search away and matching it makes the search easier.
(edit: actually looking at it, i think i changed a couple of those names to match CK already in LibraryThing. but still, they're ones that can be easily searched)
My thinking was that if someone wants more information about the CK name/place, Wikipedia is an easy search away and matching it makes the search easier.
(edit: actually looking at it, i think i changed a couple of those names to match CK already in LibraryThing. but still, they're ones that can be easily searched)
7PawsforThought
I'm wholeheartedly in agreement with this proposal for names. I get quite annoyed when people start demanding that other languages should start using the country's own name for itself - because it only seems to apply to certain countries (in some cases it can make more sense than others).
8Aquila
Fair enough. It'll be normalised enough that it gets changed in Wikipedia eventually, we got them to start using macrons for te reo Māori words in NZ English.
9Petroglyph
+1
Will this be extended to the "Washington DC"-type questions from the oher thread as well?
Will this be extended to the "Washington DC"-type questions from the oher thread as well?
10birder4106
>1 timspalding:
Thank you for bringing this up.
I'm currently overwhelmed and don't understand the problem.
As >1 timspalding: suggests, I generally support using English names.
If all pages in LibraryThing were fully localizable, the local or language-specific names could be used.
For me, as a German-speaking Swiss person {not a Swede ;-) }, LibraryThing German would be Schweiz, for LibraryThing Italian = Svizzera, and for LibraryThing French = Suisse. Place names could also easily be represented in multiple languages.
Take Geneva as an example: Since it's located in the French-speaking part of Switzerland, it's called Genève in French. In Swiss German dialects, it's Gämf or Gänf. In German, it's Genf. In English, it's Geneva, in Italian it's Ginevra, and in Romansh, the fourth national language of Switzerland, it's called Genevra.
Could someone please explain to me what the problem is?
I certainly see the political dimension. Whether these are cross-border problems, like between China and Taiwan. And of course, cultural ones, like between indigenous people and "immigrants," however long ago that may have happened, as in New Zealand, Australia, the USA, etc.
And as an outsider, I wouldn't presume to know how to solve these problems.
Thank you for bringing this up.
I'm currently overwhelmed and don't understand the problem.
As >1 timspalding: suggests, I generally support using English names.
If all pages in LibraryThing were fully localizable, the local or language-specific names could be used.
For me, as a German-speaking Swiss person {not a Swede ;-) }, LibraryThing German would be Schweiz, for LibraryThing Italian = Svizzera, and for LibraryThing French = Suisse. Place names could also easily be represented in multiple languages.
Take Geneva as an example: Since it's located in the French-speaking part of Switzerland, it's called Genève in French. In Swiss German dialects, it's Gämf or Gänf. In German, it's Genf. In English, it's Geneva, in Italian it's Ginevra, and in Romansh, the fourth national language of Switzerland, it's called Genevra.
Could someone please explain to me what the problem is?
I certainly see the political dimension. Whether these are cross-border problems, like between China and Taiwan. And of course, cultural ones, like between indigenous people and "immigrants," however long ago that may have happened, as in New Zealand, Australia, the USA, etc.
And as an outsider, I wouldn't presume to know how to solve these problems.
11paradoxosalpha
Wikipedia seems like an apt tool for this purpose.
12Blythewood
So many suggestions that - to me - amount to a solution searching desperately for a problem. The wikipedia solution seems best. Not least of all because it is easily understandable.
13birder4106
>11 paradoxosalpha:, >12 Blythewood:
Could I ask for suggestions/links to suitable Wikipedia pages?
Thank you.
Could I ask for suggestions/links to suitable Wikipedia pages?
Thank you.
14paradoxosalpha
Like >1 timspalding: said (or at least implied), the governing orthography would be the title of the Wikipedia page for the place concerned. Search Wikipedia for the place, and you will likely get a page dedicated to it. The page title might not match your search, but variant place names appear in the article.
15Nevov
Just to flag up one case where we don't follow as-Wikipedia, because Wikipedia themselves have a non-standard application of their usual naming conventions, is with Ireland (the country) which is under a page title of Republic of Ireland, yet the article's own first line is: "Ireland (Irish: Éire), also known as the Republic of Ireland", and the infobox where the flag image is has "Ireland", etc.
Their manual of style: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MOS:IRE-IRL
has an entry where it's explained, that this is to avoid confusion with the whole island Ireland (being Ireland the country plus Northern Ireland part of the UK), so they're keeping the country page at "Republic of Ireland" currently, but they instruct editors to use plain "Ireland" where the context is clear that it's about the country.
...which policy can make sense in the context of being an encyclopedia of various subjects, and needing to cover a variety of use-cases. I think it leaves us fine to keep such as the below LT CK pages sat under Ireland.
Place of Residence: Ireland (1395 authors at present)
https://www.librarything.com/ckauthor/placeofresidence/Ireland
Place of Residence: Dublin, Ireland (561 authors at present)
https://www.librarything.com/ckauthor/placeofresidence/Dublin%2C%20Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin "Dublin is the capital and largest city of Ireland."
Their manual of style: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MOS:IRE-IRL
has an entry where it's explained, that this is to avoid confusion with the whole island Ireland (being Ireland the country plus Northern Ireland part of the UK), so they're keeping the country page at "Republic of Ireland" currently, but they instruct editors to use plain "Ireland" where the context is clear that it's about the country.
...which policy can make sense in the context of being an encyclopedia of various subjects, and needing to cover a variety of use-cases. I think it leaves us fine to keep such as the below LT CK pages sat under Ireland.
Place of Residence: Ireland (1395 authors at present)
https://www.librarything.com/ckauthor/placeofresidence/Ireland
Place of Residence: Dublin, Ireland (561 authors at present)
https://www.librarything.com/ckauthor/placeofresidence/Dublin%2C%20Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin "Dublin is the capital and largest city of Ireland."
16SandraArdnas
>15 Nevov: I assume the case is similar for anything that has a disambiguation page for what would normally be used.
17civitas
>1 timspalding: I propose the following rule: LibraryThing follow the English Wikipedia page's main name.
Wikipedia has a List of Countries page that would serve as a concise reference. It names the sovereign states, disputed countries, and dependencies. Each list entry links to the corresponding main article.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries
Wikipedia has a List of Countries page that would serve as a concise reference. It names the sovereign states, disputed countries, and dependencies. Each list entry links to the corresponding main article.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries
18prosfilaes
>17 civitas: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries is not on the English Wikipedia. It's part of the Simple English Wikipedia, an entirely different encyclopedia.
19civitas
>18 prosfilaes:
Ok - It never occurred to me that "English Wikipedia" was an editor's term which didn't include both projects.
Anyway, here's the English Wikipedia list of current states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states
And past states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_sovereign_states
Ok - It never occurred to me that "English Wikipedia" was an editor's term which didn't include both projects.
Anyway, here's the English Wikipedia list of current states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states
And past states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_sovereign_states
20timspalding
>15 Nevov: As chance would have it, I arrived in Ireland today. At entry they asked us if we were going anywhere else and my wife said "no," and I corrected "We're also going to Northern Ireland." The passport guy said "That's still Ireland." :)
21bnielsen
>20 timspalding: Nice! I was in Ireland a few years ago and the guide's remarks about EU reminded me of "Life of Brian" and what has the Romans ever done for us? :-) One of the things was a highway so Northern Ireland suddently was far more accessible from "Southern Ireland". Enjoy your stay!
22timspalding
When we were in Portugal, an English guy kept on going on about the nice new Portuguese roads "WHICH I BUILT." :)
