Fe Fi FOE Comes

I don't understand why the mainstream is ignoring it...

Because it's rubbish?

Well the way it appears on Amazon.com doesn't give me much hope. A "review" by the publisher. A very small number of reviews by readers all of which rate it 5 stars. A very small number of reviews on goodreads all of which rate it 5 stars. The OP gives it five stars here (but then he also gives Atlas Shrugged and Starship Troopers five stars).

Despite not having a traditional publisher I would have thought that it would have been pretty easy to have got a mention (or even a review) on one of the SF websites and blogs I read. It hasn't, which kind of indicates that the author hasn't engaged with the community much, if at all.

Amazon also features a "look inside"... and from that it very much resembles a self-published book.

This thread stinks of spam to me.

Yes it is indeed rubbish. It is such rubbish that it is bannned material in several countries. Probably yours too.

You may note that presses that are not mainstream do not automatically get reviews from major reviewers. I don't know why that is. Actually Atlas Shrugged and Starship Troopers are five star books. Starship Troopers was one of Heinlein's rejected books at Scribners. They thought it was rubbish.

Actually SFWA is reviewing it, along with 15 or other books from traditional publishers, you know Tor and such. They will probably hate the book since it isn't published by one of the major publishers.

I note that the responders here don't find the need to read things they comment on. I bought the book on Ebay ... I liked it. I posted a comment to that effect. If that stinks then don't bother reading the thread.

How nice to see such an intelligent interchange.

You will, perhaps, forgive me for being skeptical. You have but 16 books in your catalogue, and the first book you've added is this "Fe Fi FOE Comes" book.

Furthermore, your initial entry in this thread is full of gushing, uncritical praise for this book. It doesn't at all read like someone saying "I liked this book", but rather it reads like a promotional piece from someone trying to sell the book to us.

If you are not the author of the book, or someone otherwise connected, I would be very surprised.

You say presses that are not mainstream never get reviews. I'd say the press this book came from is not only a non-mainstream press, but from a self-publisher. Googling "Vel North" only returns geographic locations entirely unrelated to books, and "Vel North Editions" returns but a few hits to the book in question and none to the publisher as an independent entity.

I say again. This thread reeks of spam to me.

#6 The book has been banned in several countries? I find that difficult to believe given that it was published by an Alaskan vanity press.

Also, the SFWA does not review books. It is a professional organisation for writers. Publication of a vanity-published book is not sufficient for membership of the SFWA.

I read the portion of the book that was available on Amazon. I was not impressed.

I also agree with Holden that your library on LT also suggests that your commentary on this "Fe Fi Foe Comes" is less than disinterested.

Honestly, I'm not clear what book we are talking about. Perhaps a touchstone?

I was just posting to say that you may not agree with the original poster's opinion, but it doesn't seem like spam to me. At least the member has books in their library and didn't post the day they joined.

You don't want LT to come off as hostile to new members just because they enjoyed a self published book.

#9

The book is Fe Fi FOE Comes (no touchstone) by William C. Samples.

Which is why I mentioned some of the OP's other 5 star books. It does give some clue to his (or her) likes and dislikes if he (or she) is a genuine poster. From that I would have guessed it to be a book based around US Libertarian (note the big L) philosophy. The review in message 1 also seems to indicate a large dollop of conspiracy theory in the book. So probably not for me - but if there are any Ayn Rand loving readers then they might have a different response.

So I was very careful to stick to facts. The prevalence of just high rated reviews on goodreads and amazon does imply some kind of coordinated publicity though.

Also like Ian in #8 I find it hard to believe that the book has been banned in several countries? Who has done the banning? Certainly in this country it could only be banned through an obscenity trial and that would have been commented on - in Ansible if nowhere else. In Germany it could have been banned if there was some Nazi connection - maybe a swastika on the cover. Elsewhere, I don't know.

Of course when the back cover says "You may not wish for people to know you are reading this book. In some jurisdictions such material is banned. In some places there may be severe penalties should you be found with it in your possession." it could just be clever marketing. Although the repetition of it being a banned book when it obviously isn't (unless someone can name a country in which it is banned and there are severe legal penalties for owning it) severely undercuts that.

I attempted to add a touchstone but typically it wasn't working.

The book is -
Fe Fi Foe Comes by William C. Samples

I'm willing to give Cyops the benefit but having just read the excerpts on Amazon I think Ian in #8 is being very kind to it. The prose is utterly appalling, guilty of even the most basic faults - there is no editing, no flow, just a splurge of words.

Sorry Andy and Ian, I just meant my post as a reply to post #5 about this being a spam thread.

#10, Hey man, it's fun to debate the merits of the book, but try to throttle back on the hostility to other posters, huh?

Wow! I feel like the little weasely kid that loved being a hall monitor back in school. Sorry guys! I'll get off my high horse.

>15 Cyops: - my comments were based on the excerpts published on Amazon.com (a well-known bookseller) that are there to entice the potential reader to buy the book. Personally I found the prose to be next to unreadable.

I quote (this is the second paragraph) -
The full-length mirror on the bathroom door revealed a naked man fresh from a shower. He was neither young nor old, in the sense that he could not be mistaken for a man in his twenties or his sixties. His hair was white, though it was impossible to tell if it had once been dark or light, or even if it had always been white ... which it had, as he was a member of that exclusive minority of people referred to as tow-headed, such that their hair was the palest color of straw, and of the more exclusive group who never grow out of it. He was not short or tall, and with the lack of either characteristic would have blended into any average group of men anywhere shortness or tallness was not the norm. His frame was neither fat nor thin, nor even trim, because his shoulders were much broader than his waistline was around, and he was well muscled and firm.
...so he's a well-built man of average height with white hair...

What do others think? Am I being unkind?

Nowhere on the SFWA web site does it say they review books. Where would they post their reviews? They only publish a bulletin, and that contains market information.

Only members of the SFWA "in good standing" can nominate works for the Nebula Award. If one such member does nominate this book, then...

Also, Fe Fi Foe Comes appears to be the only book ever published by Vel North Editions. So not vanity-published then - more likely self-published. I thought it was Alaskan because because Alaska appears on the cover art. Which was a bit silly of me, but never mind.

As an ex-resident of the Middle East, I can tell you that there are no public lists of banned books. Ones that are deemed inappropriate will not be approved for sale in the country, and zealous customs officers may well confiscate copies if they find them in someone's luggage. But since I very much doubt anyone in the Ministry of Information of whatever country has actually read Fe Fi Foe Comes, then I suspect that if you ordered a copy from Amazon while you were out there, you'd receive it.

So, cyops, making wild claims and accusations only makes you look even less like a disinterested party.

Further, the use of the spelling "color" in the excerpt helpfully posted by jargoneer above suggests the author is an American. Or possibly a non-Anglophone who learned American English.

>16 Jargoneer: The white hair and non-descript description reminds me of Aloysius Pendergast of the Lincoln/Child mysteries.

I think someone other than me should commit to read this book and give us a complete review. Ian, this sounds like a challenge for you. Maybe a compare/contrast with The Fountainhead. (Don't ya just love being volunteered?)

If that snippet is a sample of the writing, oh boy! I wish I had a mirror that revealed rather than reflected. I'd stand everyone I could find in front of it and charge them $5 for the opportunity to find out who they really are. Wow, how much I could make at the local mega High School!

Note the emphasis on exclusivity: a sure sign of Randian Individualism. It's too bad there isn't a tribe of ubermensch, maybe these individualists would shut there yaps about how wonderful they are.

Come on, Ian. Give it a go. Give Cyops (I'm sure there are no black helicopters or conspiracies connoted by that name) what he is asking for, a professional review.

#16

He was neither young nor old, in the sense that he could not be mistaken for a man in his twenties or his sixties.

Shades of Lionel Fanthorpe there. Of course he knew what he was doing was throwaway rubbish.

#19 I'm still on the medication from reading The Fountainhead.

>19 geneg:. Your egging Ian on reminds me of the phrase: "I like change, you go first" or another "Let Mikey try it!" Life is too short.

The excerpt jargoneer posted is certainly enough for me.

eta: well, actually, I stopped at the title. The excerpt just really topped it off for me:-)

From the copyright page of the novel:

This is a work of fiction. All similarities between actual events, organizations, and people are purely coincidental … probably.

All material herein copyrighted 2007, first publishing rights held by Vel North Editions, all other rights held by William C. Samples. All rights reserved no reproduction of any material without written permission of the author. william.samples@gmail.com

Printed in the European Union
ISBN: 978-0-9800681-0-8
Galley Proof Edition
© 2007 by William C. Samples

Is it printed in the European Union or not?

#21

"I'm the guy who co-ordinates the SFWA Circulating Book Plan. The CBP, if you're not familiar with it, is a service SFWA provides to its members whereby you get lotsa books sent to you for no cost as long as you agree to box them up and mail them to the next person in your group when you're done with 'em. It's part of the Nebula process, a way for members to get a look at a large percentage of the new SF coming out these days."

"I'm just writing these reviews as a guy who reads lotsa books, not as any official representative of the SFWA Ruling Council..."

In other words, the SFWA does not review books.

Come on, Cyops, stop pissing about and own up - you're the author of Fe Fi Foe Comes. Why else would you be so defensive of it?

#24

If the book is POD, and the customer who bought it is based in the EU, then an EU-based printer will be used. That's to save postage costs. The book was printed in the EU but may have been published in the US. Big difference.

And British writers do not spell it "color".

Now see what you've done. You've got me putting words in bold to make my point really obvious.

geneg is the only one here making sense. Do a review and post it. Stop dancing around all the foolishness about the publisher, etc, etc.

As far as being unkind ... if you reduce all discriptions to elementals then all books would be very boring indeed.

As far as being defensive ... I've suggested jargoneer and geneg or even yourself iansales should do a review and offset all the so far positive ones. To take one paragraph and say that explains the book is as silly as saying the cover art is pitiful so the book must be rubbish too.

Oh yes the SFWA circulating book plan gets tons of books ... they do not select them all to put on the website. If you choose to claim this is not a review then please enjoy your perspective.

The missed point is whether the book has anything worth discussing ... which means SOMEONE MUST ACTUALLY READ IT. Since I have and you won't your opinion is worthless.

By the way I note it is selling in the UK from ebay and bookstore ads. I guess a few there go beyond the cover.

Oh yes the SFWA circulating book plan gets tons of books ... they do not select them all to put on the website. If you choose to claim this is not a review then please enjoy your perspective.

Sigh.

Again: "I'm just writing these reviews as a guy who reads lotsa books, not as any official representative of the SFWA Ruling Council..." The words of Michael H Payne on http://www.sfwa.org/reviews/pols.html

The reviews are not by the SFWA. They are there for the benefit of members of the Circulating Book Plan, in order to keep them informed on what's been published when it comes time to nominate books for the Nebula.

As for reading Fe Fi Foe Comes... send me a free copy & I'll review it. I'm not going to pay for it.

To prove that I did not deliberately chose a 'bad' paragraph I bring interested parties two sections quoted on ebay listing that Cyops mentions -


HUGIN & MUNIN

(318) “So the newcomers were able to wrest political control away from the oligarchy and do away with taxes and extensive regulation?”
“Almost. Had there been a level playing field they might have made radical changes in government. International politics and foreign policy stopped what would have been a peaceful return to constitutional government.”
“But we’re here Sire! So something worked! Something made it possible for them to change local government, eliminate outside control! Was there a secret weapon? So secret even we Alaskans don’t know about it?”
“But you do know Vavan,” he looked at him. “You know because you and all Alaskans are still living it!”
“Living it?”
“Yes,” the Tsar laughed. “The Alaskans all went to Hell!”

MIDGARD

(334) The larger river was a mile maybe even two miles from shore to shore, and moving so fast there were waves on it. An archetypical mountain was directly across the river, it rose maybe two miles almost straight up from the river below to its peak. It was snowcapped and massive but delicate looking stair step glaciers descended from each side of the mountain maybe halfway down from the peak. Rivulets then streams then rivers of their own account were flowing from the glacier terminuses on the mountain to join the wide watercourse below. On each side of the mountain were lesser peaks, continuing in a chain north and south. The river they had just crossed joined with the major tributary, and the waters mixed their colors before taking on the predominant copper hue of the much larger river.

They stood alone. Except for the man and girls they had traveled with, there was no evidence of civilization anywhere. …

The only sound was that of the river’s white noise in the background. There was a soft breeze accompanying the movement of the river, it was warm, and the air had only the most delicate taste of the living things. Above them the sky was blue upon blue, only a single cloud was to be seen, and that one a dark angry gray; it was caught on the tip of the dominating mountain, and seemingly prevented from entering the valley.

They were surely on another world Jean thought … it was majestic and spectacular and so very beautiful … it was simply beyond human capacity to describe, it could only be experienced.

Terri came over and stood with her arms around him for maybe nothing but closeness. There was nothing to be seen here of the human world, no one to call, no one to respond, no place of refuge. Around the bend in the river the Earth’s largest city could be lost, unseen, but here there was only wilderness … the vastness defied taming. To those of the modern world it might be frightening … and this was the softest time of year.

I was going to say that you couldn't make this up but unfortunately someone already has...

...it was majestic and spectacular and so very beautiful … it was simply beyond human capacity to describe...

Hehe. Impossible to describe... immediately following a description.

When was the last time you sold a book on eBay and made a profit?! If I bought a book for a quid, I'd be lucky to cover my costs if I sold it on eBay.

Does this mean there is now a full-book Bulwer-Lytton contest? I can come up with no other reason for this prose.

I don't need to sell books on Ebay or anywhere else. The point is you can buy the book, read it, then send it back for a return for your money. They have a service in London whereby someone comes by your hotel room and reads to you, but I really can't afford to do that for you ... you have to make some effort to discredit me after all.

>33 Cyops: - you are correct, I don't need to be a shut-in but whoever wrote this book does - at least until they learn some rudiments of the English language.

9>"I was just posting to say that you may not agree with the original poster's opinion, but it doesn't seem like spam to me."

Having watched the thread progress, I see no reason to withdraw my comments. I cannot see how anyone other than an author, or a friend of the author, could be so defensive to negative comments any know so much about the book (pushing the line that it is 'banned', for example).

If I erred at all, it was simply in calling this 'spam'. What I should have called it is 'astroturfing'. And this is as clear as case of that as I ever did see.

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come

This should have read: Gee I'd like to kill myself, but being dead might be worse than living.

So much for would-be editors.

The eBay seller is based in Mainz in Germany, and is selling only copies of the book. Most of his feedback is as a buyer not a seller.

Strangely enough, there's a US Army garrison in Wiesbaden outside Mainz...

I think you mean 'rumination' jargoneer.

Excuse me? Cyops, do you mean jargoneer should use "rumination" instead of "rudiments"? Get a dictionary - they don't mean the same thing at all, and rumination doesn't make sense in context.

Sigh - I was really trying to stay out of this...

I assume you posted a bid iansales? I look forward to your unbiased review.

>40 Cyops: - see, that's what I mean. Rudiment is a basic or fundamental skill.

I would find it more difficult to use rumination but I could use a derivative -
"you are correct, I don't need to be a shut-in but whoever wrote this book does - at least until he has ruminated about his crimes against the English language."

tardis
Actually I assumed jargoneer was talking about rechewing the english to further break it down so that he could digest it ... this is called "ruminating" not "rudiments'.

45> Rumination or ruminating - it still doesn't make sense in the context as originally presented. Although I like the version in 44 :)

#29

I've read the first page (courtesy of amazon.com). I have to say that if I was reading the slush that day this book wouldn't have taken up much of my time. A plain reject. It is barely literate at times. Just prior to the naked man and mirror section we have this.
Some who lived there worked in the city core, preferred a large room at half the cost of those with a more respectable location, and didn't mind the risk of leaving or entering their living spaces after dark.

So Ian's original post of "it is rubbish" seems spot on. Do I have small press books? Yes I do. Do I have self-published books? Well I have one as it was being given away by the author.

Popcorn, anyone?

To reduce Shakespeare's arguably finest moment to a single mundane sentence is to demonstrate a distinct lack of the artistic impulse, as well as a certain anti-intellectualism that often accompanies politically inspired drivel on perfect social systems. That's fine. Some people just don't see, understand, or appreciate the value of art. But trust me, that single sentence is an abomination when compared to the soliloquy it is cobbled up to replace. That may be what Shakespeare had in mind, but the point is in the telling. Engaging in that exercise speaks volumes about your taste, Cyops, which gives people pause about the value of books you may recommend. To be so tone deaf does not recommend "Fe Fi Foe Comes" to me at any rate. I can't speak for the others.

Mama don't 'low no Shakespeare paraphrasin' 'round here. Paraphrase Ayn Rand if you must, but leave Billy alone. He's not the greatest writer in the use of English that ever lived for nothing.

You completely missed the point geneg. That parsing and paraphrasing of the opening paragraph of Fe Fi FOE Comes was exactly what jargoneer did ... I quote:

'The full-length mirror on the bathroom door revealed a naked man fresh from a shower. He was neither young nor old, in the sense that he could not be mistaken for a man in his twenties or his sixties. His hair was white, though it was impossible to tell if it had once been dark or light, or even if it had always been white ... which it had, as he was a member of that exclusive minority of people referred to as tow-headed, such that their hair was the palest color of straw, and of the more exclusive group who never grow out of it. He was not short or tall, and with the lack of either characteristic would have blended into any average group of men anywhere shortness or tallness was not the norm. His frame was neither fat nor thin, nor even trim, because his shoulders were much broader than his waistline was around, and he was well muscled and firm.

...so he's a well-built man of average height with white hair...'

The point being how absurd to reduce a discription to a single line. In point how absurd to reduce Hamlet's speach as I did.

Oops! Mea Culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa.

#49

I'm sorry. Do you seriously think the sentence I quoted is an example of good, or even adequate, English?

In your original post you asked why the mainstream is ignoring it. For me the quality of prose, even on the first page of the book, is such that a slush reader would reject it out of hand. No one is going to plough through 870 odd pages when the first leaves them with a bad taste.

If you ask the question, you must be prepared for the answers even if they don't agree with your views. Amazon has the first few pages available and that was enough for me to make up my mind.

andyl

It isn't about English it is about setting the scene for the actions to follow. You missed this:

The almost perfect picture-pose was broken by a coughing fit.
He coughed explosively, from deep in his chest, it went on until there were tears in his eyes, and he was gasping for breath. He grabbed on to the edge of the bathroom sink, suddenly dizzy from the lack of oxygen, and leaned over to spit up a gob of strangling mucus into the toilet.
Regaining his composure, he splashed some water from the faucet on his face, wiped his hands and face on the hand towel hanging on the bar, reached for the pack of cigarettes on the shelf, withdrew one and lit it ... inhaling a blast of the menthol laced smoke into his lungs.
He looked into his own eyes in the mirror and smiled. It was an ironic smile ... directed at the incongruity of his chronic breathing problem and the smoking that aggravated it, but most particularly at the sure knowledge that such risks paled in comparison to the immediate threats to his existence. He was a man living on borrowed time.

If you bothered to follow the story you would understand the reference to 'a man living on borrowed time'. Those who have persevered, including myself, well understand the reason for this opening paragraph.

I cannot remark on those who would reject it 'out of hand' because of the English ... I assume that is not the author's purpose. There are those ... perhaps the majority who would reject the novel because of its theme if nothing else. I do not question such determinations ... of course the majority would not agree with my views ... such is the state of the world we live in. I have no 'blame' for those who do not, will not like the novel.

Nevertheless the book and its theme appeals to me and others ... it is for them that I posted a brief discription. A story, in this case a saga, is a story regardless of the presentation. If you miss the story because you dwell on the presentation then either your life-view is not appealed to by the story, or you cannot get past the assumed 'defects' in order to understand the story.

The choice is ultimately the reader's ... I cannot influence that.

Following this thread since it had so many posts in one day.

I can understand the OP liking a book. I would think maybe doing a review rather than starting a thread for a book, for that does seem like marketing. If it was Gone with the Wind, that we were debating the merits of, or Stranger in a Strange Land, I could see a thread having a great deal of posts with those who like it and those who don't.

But there is vehemence coming out here, and now we are using Shakespeare to support some of the arguments?

The excerpts posted here so far I think show a book that I would take points off for poor writing. The dialogue example, particularly. That is one of my biggest pet peeves, even scientists, professors and doctors have a voice, but they generally don't talk in lecture hall voice so that you would rather be elsewhere all the time.

If the purpose of the Fe Fi Foe thread is a debate about a book that only one person has read, then that is not much of a debate on the item.

So let me have some of that popcorn.

Wow. This could be the greatest book debate EVAR, and I watched some doozies at Goodreads back in the day.

Let's deal with facts. Fe Fi FOE Comes is a book that has sold in several countries including the USA, Germany, Belgium, Unitied Kingdom, Ireland, Italy, to soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, and no doubt others. There are no reviews here other than positive ones. One is mine.

Poor writing is a subjective appraisel. Obviously those buying and commenting on the book do not agree that it is poor writing. Some do ... some will. It is pointless to 'not like' the book because of the publisher, cover, first paragraph, etc.

Until someone commenting here actually reads the book the feedback is completely worthless.

That was the whole point of starting the thread. There is no debate about a book that only one person has read. There is no vehemence from my point of view. Anyone that actually reads the book and provides a negative review is welcome to present their opinion.

Simple.

#54

If an author wants me to read their book then it had better be written in passable English.

Even that first sentence of your quote - "The almost perfect picture-pose was broken by a coughing fit." shows a tin-ear which almost destroys the sentence. Using the right idiomatic expression "The almost picture perfect pose was broken by a coughing fit" makes it read much better although I wouldn't have used pose - it has the wrong connotation altogether. Note the author had all the right words ... just not necessarily in the right order (maybe only the Britons reading will get that reference).

Poor writing is a subjective appraisel.

Er. no. And poor spelling and word-use certainly isn't. Words have rules on how they are spelt and how they are used. That's what dictionaries are for.

The fact that the book has only received positive reviews is suspicious - especially in light of the poor writing shown in the excerpts.

Sorry, cyops but this is not a book I'm going to waste money on - even if there is a "money-back guarantee".

Cyops

How have you found out so much about the book? You state that you purchased the book on eBay. Has this thread made you do all this additional research in the last 12 hours or so?

You have 16 books in your library, can you share more about you? The other information on your profile is sparse.

As for the book, Fe Fi FOE Comes which I have put in touchstones but does not appear, only 2 copies are logged at all in LT. Then their is one description, no review of the book at the book page of LT, Search on the Author, not the book for those who want to go there.

The book description has hyperbole in it, and some of your statements have been the same. When you site banned in North Korea, for instance, but had used banned in countries before that. The way you suggest North Korea, sounds like any book in english is banned in North Korea, the bible would be banned in North Korea the way it has been cited in this thread. So should the Bible get this kind of praise here?

The description sounds more like directing you to conspiracy theories, rather than telling you what the book is about, what the plot is.

If we were to have a review, without having spoilers everywhere, wouldn't we get some hint of the plot line. Then as some of the others have asked, get some critical analysis. As far as I can tell, out of 600,000 LT'ers, you are the first to have read and want to discuss it.

The statistics of a thing like reviews is that out of 100, 4 step up and speak up about it. Remember that from my MBA class on statistics and customer service.

andyl

I think you miss the point. The novel is not written in 'English'. Later in the book you will find that the writing of those times has changed ... grammer, punctuation, style. Like The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Heinlien exploits literary license to a patois speech evolved on Luna. The novel transitions between the present and the future. Nevertheless I do not defend the textual context ... much of the novel is almost poetic. Read the Table of Contents ... you will see that the chapters set out the components of the saga. See Valkyrja for instance.

Again I stress that I do not believe the author expected ANYONE to actually read the novel. There is a reference in the chapter Havamal that explains this. This not a book that fits any niche of current literature. In that sense it is understandable that many you will have no interest in reading this at all. But I suggest that all the criticisms are simply not applicable ... the world worlds discribed in the novel are beyond all experience.

The novel's appeal ... and the reason it continues to sell ... is BECAUSE it does not fit a particular category.

I had hoped for an unbiased review to balance my own, simply because when I discuss this book people are dumbfounded with the content. For instance the question how much is 1 + 1 ... almost everyone knows the answer to this, but the book has the only realistic one.

You cannot evaluate this novel on contempory standards ... you can reject it, and most will ... but it doesn't fit a particular pigeon hole.

Aha! So it's not badly written, it's just written in the author's own private version of English. That explains everything.

Except, Cyops, your continued defence of this self-published piece of tripe. Don't they teach you to ever admit defeat in the army?

For intermission - Kizdoc pointed out that Murakami's Pinball 1973 is available online as a pdf file, although it's not in print in translation yet. So, for a break:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070203122316/http://cramoisi.net/folder/bibliothequ...

In that case the author has done a piss-poor job at conveying that. I've read and enjoyed The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, Feersum Endjinn, Riddley Walker, and Gradisil all of which mutate language to a greater or lesser degree. If the writer chooses to write in some future dialect which is virtually indistinguishable from piss-poor English then he had better establish the fact that it is deliberate fairly close to the beginning of the book. In fact it might have been better to have produced a rather more distinctive future English-derivative so that it is obvious - otherwise it is too easy to explain any crap English by saying "but it is the future man".

DWWilkin

I have read this book several times. I came across it I think in August. It is a book which is almost the reverse of everything that everyone believes. My profile is uninteresting, I like books that are in a 'freedom' vein. I liked Atlas Shrugged, but I think Rand left off and left out many important requirements of a free society. I took the trouble to look up 'banned' literature after reading Fe Fi FOE comes ... there are many places that do not allow anti-government literature or anti-state-religious literature. In some ways the book is advocating doing away with authoritarian control, and I think this would restrict its entry in many places. Plus we have become a society obsessed with control for economic and 'terrorist' reasons. It isn't about conspiracy theories, it's more about what people who want freedom can/must do to achieve it. This is a book that will only move by word of mouth ... the establishment will ignore it. I think it is worthwhile to point people to it. Most will discount the theme, but there is some real 'end of the world' issues it deals with. My guess is the more popular it becomes the more the author needs to disassociate himself with it. LOL This is part of the book also .... the man living on borrowed time.

eeek. for my sins on LT, Anthem (NOT Anathem) has inexplicably turned up on my "member recommendations" book list...i'll never be snide again.

When I come back to this thread tomorrow am I going to find a hundred unread posts?

Clearly I am not a target audience - I don't like self-published, badly-written books marketed using a mixture of hyperbole and lies.

Fe Fi Foe Comes has all the earmarks of a self-published novel. And judging by what we have seen of it, it was self-published because it isn't good enough to have been published by a commercial publisher. Its story appears to be about as controversial as Rand's The Fountainhead, which was originally published in 1943. That's 65 years ago. I suspect it's every bit as risible as The Fountainhead.

If, Cyops, you had the courage to stand up and admit you were the author, then perhaps we wouldn't have been quite so harsh. I certainly wouldn't have been. But your defence has been too eager, you know too much about the book to simply be a fan, and you are too willing to uncritically repeat the book's hyperbole.

So, yes, it's no surprise that I have decided the book is rubbish. This thread has not persuaded me otherwise. If anything, it has only reinforced my opinion.

I've tried to engage honestly without throwing any mud at individuals. I've pointed to the fact that the prose was of rather poor quality (at least the first three pages I could read) only to be told later it wasn't poor English just a future dialect. I then widen to other books that use future dialects yet don't fall in the same trap of being mistaken for poor English only to told that the OP doesn't want to discuss it any further with me.

Well Cyops - tough. This is a public forum. I have been polite all the way through and certainly not posted anything that could be mistaken for abuse. I started by giving the book the benefit of the doubt. It was only after reading the first 3 pages on Amazon I came to my opinion about its lack of quality. If I wish to make more points about the book, although I find that a bit difficult to believe as there is only so much you can say about 3 pages, I will do so.

Now I am more confused. I thought this thread started this morning with:

"Okay so I finished the book! Long read like 870 pages, but well worth it."

But now we have that the book has been read several times.

Cyops, your posts sound like you are hiding something. Ian may not have it correct, you may not be the author, and you may not be getting any money for it at all. But Shakespeare has given us a quote, since we have already referenced him, "doth protest too much."

There seems a lot more to the story, since it changes, then we have heard from Cyops. There seems a lot more than just a fan, though I might be as vehement if someone attacked my reviews of a cherished H Beam Piper, for instance. I hope though I would stay consistent in my story.

Cyops, if you have more to say, or want to restate all the facts once for all, then perhaps you should. This does not sound at all like something you picked up, had heard a lot about, have lots of friends discussing. There is only 1 other on all of LT who has this book. Only 1. Where are all these others, where are all the other reviews?

No I'm pretty well done with the thread DWWilkin. Nothing here is very important anyway. I don't need to sell the book ... not my job anyway.

damn - i was looking forwards to an ongoing foodfight

In light that there are too many contradicting statements, not enough facts and that we have an entire thread in defense of what looks like a book that clearly can't be defended, I have to vote for flagging this as a abuse.

Please do. Censorship is always notable

"Banned in several countries", eh Cyops?
That piqued my interest a little. I have an anti-authoritarian streak and relish banned books. I was a little disappointed but mostly highly amused when I discovered that those countries were China, North Korea and "a number of Middle Eastern countries" - known to most of us as places where just about everything is banned.
Almost as funny was where you posted an acknowledgement of the existence of the book and claimed it was a review.
Please continue to be ridiculous so I may continue to be mildly amused.

#72: Greatest. Sales pitch. Ever.

i'm feeling more and more like br'er rabbit vs the tarbaby.

You can't compare Shakespeare to the opening excerpt from that book. Shakespeare has given us so many phrases and words to utilise for the English language, reducing his poetic writing to a sentence or phrase is nothing short of a travesty. The person writing about the naked white-haired man, however, has no sense of style whatsoever - it is not wonderfully described, with style and wit, nor is it done with a sense of economy either (and this is from someone who considers the style of the book one of the least important aspects).

As for the book being banned, is it a "We have banned Fe Fi FOE Comes because of..." or is it just the people in China or wherever else read the dustjacket and say "We haven't seen this book before, but since it is about subverting the government, we don't allow it in here."

I might dedicate a few hours to review what appears to be such appauling rubbish (I have two KJA Dune books on my TBR pile next), but I could think of a million other books that I would actually want to buy and read for twenty dollars, rather than a small-press book. Now, if it were free on the internet...

EDIT:

Cyops:
Having read the book, and enjoyed it so much, do you see any problems with it at all? Any characters you didn't like, or thought were unnecessary? Any scenes you think should be changed, or things that might have been explained better had you actually written the book? (I will humour your assertation that you didn't write the book).

>80 rojse: alas! there is a difference, imo, between a small press book and a vanity press and/or self-publishing. I would not want to toss out the proverbial small press baby with the rest of the bath water.

>81 avaland: I wouldn't even toss out self-publishing. When you find a gem it's usually pretty stunning.

#81 - no kidding, Small Beer(sic) - Kelly Link's and Grant's small press has turned out some of my favorites in recent years. And i like a lot of stuff from Nightshade, which i think is independent (?) rather than the SF/fantasy imprint of a major publisher. A good bit of new poetry is small press too.

Quite a bit of personal attacks over what looks like a poorly written, self published book. Doesn't make me want to buy it...

#80 You also missed the point rojse ... there was no comparison of Shakespeare to the writing from the book ... the comparison was the travesty of changing an author's discription to a one-liner in order to ridicule it. Why would you defend doing that to 'bad writing' (your opinion), yet be appalled that it was done to 'good writing? Is your sense of right and wrong tied to the popularity of the work being plagiarized?

It is a fact that some materials cannot be imported into certain places. It is a fact that more and more anti-government material is under scrutiny. It is also a fact that human rights are diminishing everywhere. I can understand that some people who never travel do not appreciate this, and mostly people don't really care it seems.

I stated earlier some of the criticisms of the book. Having participated in this thread I can think of a number of characters I would add to the story. Maybe a scene with copies of the book (the book in the story) being burned by a mob.

#86

I demand a retraction. I never once reduced a descriptive passage to a one-liner in the discussion. I said the author had a tin-ear and was barely literate, although since then you have informed me he wasn't writing in English.

#87 I stated earlier some of the criticisms of the book.

rojse asked if you saw any flaws in the book. Having re-read the entire thread I can see no shred of criticism that originates with you, or indeed any real criticism at all posted by you. So if you would be so kind to restate your criticisms.

See #10 Criticisms I posted

As to 'gushing' praise, several of my friends could not get into the story, a few told me the charactors were 'too perfect', and one person was outraged at the religious 'bent' of the story.

See # 16 by jargoneer ... sorry I misattributed this to andyl ... I will edit the attribution

I quote (this is the second paragraph) -
The full-length mirror on the bathroom door revealed a naked man fresh from a shower. He was neither young nor old, in the sense that he could not be mistaken for a man in his twenties or his sixties. His hair was white, though it was impossible to tell if it had once been dark or light, or even if it had always been white ... which it had, as he was a member of that exclusive minority of people referred to as tow-headed, such that their hair was the palest color of straw, and of the more exclusive group who never grow out of it. He was not short or tall, and with the lack of either characteristic would have blended into any average group of men anywhere shortness or tallness was not the norm. His frame was neither fat nor thin, nor even trim, because his shoulders were much broader than his waistline was around, and he was well muscled and firm.
...so he's a well-built man of average height with white hair...

As to my own criticisms, the edition now marketed is a Galley Proof, as such it has grammatical errors, there are places where names are interchanged erroneously, there is no explanation of the chapter names or how they relate to the saga. The publisher says the First Edition is now being typeset, hopefully these errors will be corrected. I find no fault with the theme, or the factual information supplied. I find only one other source which accurately answers the question 1 + 1 = ? I find the Hell communities to be unique, and the FOE also.

You'll note 'English' was in quotes ... meaning it does not conform to English as written in England, and the style does not conform either to my way of thinking, since it does not read like other novels ... say Orwell or Rand or Heinlein either. This is your and your contemporaries criticism by the way ... I disagree.

#85 Strangely enough there are a number of pig farms in the UK .... are you a pig farmer iansales?

No, but I do like a nice pork pie.

#90

But rojse asked if you saw any flaws. You haven't answered that, so we must assume that you don't see any flaws.

I would say that "the characters are too perfect" isn't a criticism at all. Also I am not sure what being outraged at the religious 'bent' of the story means. Does the book criticise current religions, portray or new one, or do you mean it delivers its Libertarian message in a zealous manner?

What do you call this??

As to my own criticisms, the edition now marketed is a Galley Proof, as such it has grammatical errors, there are places where names are interchanged erroneously, there is no explanation of the chapter names or how they relate to the saga.

Yes charactors being 'too perfect' is a criticism. The lead charactors are beautiful - smart - capable, for some this makes them too perfect to be believable. The plot contains what many would perceive to be an attack on religious zealots of various denominations, and specifically religious authority is outlawed. I would not call the book Libertarian, though one website refers to it as Libertarian Fiction. I doubt most Libertarians would advocate the actions of the FOE.

OK, I misunderstood what "characters are too perfect" meant.

Cyops, could you give us at least a hint what the accurate answer to "the question 1 + 1 = ?" is?

I have a question. Why sell a "galley proof" edition? Surely the first edition should be the first edition to go on sale?

Some publishers use the galley proofs as "advance reader copies", which they send out free-of-charge to reviewers. People who receive these copies may then themselves sell the copy they received. But the publisher never sells them.

Marketing a galley proof? Brilliant!

#95

Here's a hint from the only accurate source I've found other than Fe Fi FOE Comes. The implications of this in the novel are more profound IMO.

By the way I am not Herbert Dingle either.

SCIENCE At the Crossroads
HERBERT DINGLE
Professor Emeritus of History
And Philosophy of Science,
University of London
MARTIN BRIAN
& O’KEEFFE
LONDON

Take, for example, the simple mathematical equation, 1+1=2. Over a wide range this holds good in experience as well as in mathematics, where it is always true. If we have one penny, and someone adds another to our wealth, we have two pennies. If we have one apple and add to it another and count the total, we find that it is two apples. And so on. We may therefore be inclined to generalise, and say that if we add one anything to another of the same thing, we have two of those things; in other words, x+x=2x,
whatever x may be. But this is far from the truth. If we add one water drop to one water drop we get not two water drops but one larger drop. If we add one rabbit to one rabbit we may get a continent of rabbits.

Er, that book was Dingle's attempt to show that Einstein's special relativity was wrong. Dingle was wrong.

#96 #97

Why not ask the publisher? In the book it says:

"A Galley Proof Edition is a complete unabridged print of the author’s manuscript as written, with only limited editing for grammar and spelling."

If you've ever heard of R. Heinlein, F. Paul Wilson, and a few others, and read their comments on publishing they have repeatedly complained that editors strike and change their work, sometimes to the point where the overall story is different. Maybe the author negotiated a galley proof edition to avoid changes. Ask him if you like.

It is obviously brilliant ... the Galley Proof Edition format, print, etc. is exactly the same as any mass-market paperback. According to the publisher the galley proof run is almost sold out now. Everyone that goes up on Ebay sells, and that's in the US UK & Ireland. Copies for resale are at bookstores in many locations with prices higher than at Amazon.

Maybe this will become a trend for authors, and their readers will have an intact manuscript to read before it's chopped up.

I'd give a lot for an uncut Heinlein manuscript.

#99

Now you're an expert on math and physics ... LOL.

The discussion Dingle, and others, started goes on today. The issue here is the correspondence between math and reality ... on which Einstein and Dingle concurred:

In 1921, in Geometry and Experience, Albert Einstein said, ‘As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality they are not certain; as far as they are certain they do not refer to reality’.

Thus the sum of 1+1, outside of strict mathematics, is indeterminent without qualifying the 1 thing added to the other 1 thing.

So the publisher decided to sell an inferior product - i.e., not properly edited - and spins that as some kind of publishing coup? Not credible. A publisher would not publish a book they had not finished editing. And they certainly wouldn't advertise that they've done exactly that.

Also, if this is a self-published book - and all the evidence suggests it is - then it's likely POD. Which means it does not have a "print-run" and cannot "sell out".

Sorry, Cyops, but the more you "explain", the less plausible your lies become.

#101 I think you're trying to debate philosophy, not maths or physics.

#102

Your inability to reason objectively is leading you down the path of fallaciously arrived at conclusions, and leaving you with nothing left to post other than insults. This is also your problem with 'plausibility' ... you cannot accept anything you cannot understand, so you make up the way you think things must be to fit your world view.

This is very telling in your posts here and elsewhere.

#101

There is no debate, and there is not the clear line of demarcation between the subjects that you think there are.

Here is some "objective reasoning":

1) I have suggested that you are the author of this book, and over the course of several posts outlined why I think this is the case.

2) I admit that my comment that you are in the US Army and based in Wiesbaden was total supposition, and based on no real evidence. It was a shot in the dark.

3) I am not the only one that has commented on the poor command of English displayed in the book, nor the only one to point out that your continued defence of the book, and denial of its flaws, seems suspicious for a mere "fan".

4) I have explained what a galley proof is, and what it is used for. I have explained how commercial publishers use galley proofs. This is standard industry practice. It is not difficult to understand.

5) 1 + 1 = 2 is mathematics. F = ma is physics. Any other discussion on the meaning on 1 + 1 is philosophy: "the study of general problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, truth, beauty, justice, validity, mind, and language".

my hopes fulfilled; wake up and lo there are 20+ thrusts and parries coming and going.

"Take, for example, the simple mathematical equation, 1+1=2. Over a wide range this holds good in experience as well as in mathematics, where it is always true.
----
But this is far from the truth. If we add one water drop to one water drop we get not two water drops but one larger drop. If we add one rabbit to one rabbit we may get a continent of rabbits."
so this is NOT a consistent argument about the nature of proofs; rather a simplistic apples/oranges contrast where the first portion (arithmetic) has nothing to do w/ the 2nd (use of language, description of the visible (or prancing on the head of pins, invisible, world).

Fair enough.

1. The author of this book has offered nothing about his identity. No details or picture on the back cover of the novel. Nothing on Amazon but a line about the novel, nothing on Ebay except a line from the publisher, and his answer to a fan about the Hell communities in the book. Google tells you nothing about him, unrelated to the book, mentioning only someone of that name getting a speeding ticket. I assume this is done on purpose, for whatever reason. There are things in the novel that are not known by the average person ... maybe he's not interested in being known. Maybe it's just hype for some reason.

2. The UK & Ireland Ebay ads list the location of the book as Mainz, Germany. The US ads say San Francisco. Maybe an office of the publisher is in Mainz, and it's easier to ship from there to the UK and Ireland. I work in many places for many clients both in the US and Europe.

3. I do not agree with your assessment of the quality of English in the limited parts of the book perused ... nor do I agree with those that agree with you on that point. It is really immaterial even if you were correct, the point is the story, which cannot be gleaned from a few lines. As far as defense of the book, I wonder what your reaction would be if someone endlessly labeled Dune as rubbish, and whether you would defend it. I like the book Fe Fi FOE Comes. It is one of my favorites. Nothing you or anyone here will say will change that.

4. Your explanation of a galley proof does not cover the Galley Proof Edition of the book. It was done on purpose I am sure. So far it appears to sell, despite not being a mainstream publication.

5. The scope of this forum does not lend itself to a debate on the categories of philosophy, math, and physics. Suffice it to say the issue is a profound part of the story in the book ... like it or not.

Summary:

Almost all these things are immaterial. This is supposed to be forum for a book discussion ... not who I am ... who the author is ... the Army ... etc. You are of course welcome to your opinion, but an opinion based on the above misses the point of what the book is about. If you don't ask and you don't read it you will never know. If you think I'm trying to sell you or anyone else the book you're wrong. IMO it deserves mention ... if your opinion is different then find a thread about books you find worthwhile. Same for everyone.

#106

actually not correct ... the point being to take an arithmetic statement into the real world and assume that because the math is logistically consistant what is being analyzed in the real world must conform to the mathematical answer is a fallacy ... which is done all the time by those who do not understand that one is an abstraction and one is reality

I find your statement that the quality of English is immaterial to one's enjoyment and quality of a book to be a very strange one. Yes, factors such as plot, characterisation and world-building comes into play but the prose does have to be of an adequate standard. The three pages I read would have been marked as of an unacceptable standard at the grammar school I attended - even for the lower forms. That you don't (or can't) see the problems with the prose probably says more about you than us.

It's true there's no information about the author anywhere on the Web. Which is unusual. It's a strange way to promote a book.

There's also no web site for the publisher. And a quick google reveals that this is the only book the publisher has ever published. Which suggests it was self-published. The "Galley Proof Edition" (sic) only reinforces this supposition, as it's contrary to industry practice.

I actually know several people, whose opinions I respect, who think Dune is rubbish. And I've happily defended my liking of the book to them.

Some of the posts on this thread have not exactly been on point, but that's the nature of discussion. You started the thread by gushing about how wonderful it was, so I think we're perfectly justified in commenting on the book's prose. I think I'm also justified in not wanting to read the book - or at least not pay for the book - judging by what I've seen of it.

#108

Could you give an example of where this fallacy causes issues in the real world?

The more I hear about this book, the more I am reminded of The Turner Diaries or The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Secret works known only to the initiate.

I for one could use a non-spoiler laden synopsis of the book. How about giving us one, Cyops? What's it about? What's it's underlyiing theme? How does it make its point? A little understanding of the purpose of the book might (or might not) help us understand what you see in it.

#106 - actually is reasonably correct.
statements about mathematical rules and statements using language to describe the "natural world" are handling two discreet universes of discourse. We conflate them because we're language using humans.

fwiw: a logistical fallacy would either imply bad handling of trucking/shipping schedules or (less likely) trying to solve a logistic regression (likelihood of a binary outcome ) that devolves into an crap matrix and is not solvable w/ the parameters provided.

When I went to sleep last night I knew that this thread was not done because I saw more defensive posts from Cyops

Cyops said he had been finished but again today the book is being vehemently defended and insults are being thrown around.

So i did some more research. Amazon has 2 reviews, both gushing by people who have done no other reviews at Amazon.

Cyops added this book when he joined the site in December and he rated it then. He has 16 books and it is a free account.

What does this suggest to me? That this is a pro-marketing thread. Since the first post was flagged as abusive, the 'review' of the book is no longer shown so we don't have that to look at to see again how it was praise alone for this book that hardly anyone has read.

Cyops stated once that he had just finished the book yesterday, then he has said he has read it several times.

What I am getting is it is a theology or philosophy, very non mainstream. That it has very few proponents. The entire argument of 1+1 not equalling 2 is absurd, and no amount of hyperbole can make it less absurd.

Cyops has clear issues when called to account for common disclosure. We are nitpicking the fly shit out of the pepper.

The book, which I will never read, and I did read the excerpts on Amazon, is crap. It is anti-the way things are cluttered in a story. Probably Libertarian as a previous post pointed out.

What I have seen with these disguised treatise's and I have a few and have read them, so I don't want Cyops to say such is not my kind of book, is that a small minority, so small that statistically you can't count them, get's a hold of this crap ideology, believes that they know truth and right, and will yell at the top of their lungs that everyone else is wrong.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. One fictional account is not truth.

Hell, next you'll have me believing that a cult in Northern Scotland has kept the many times granddaughter of Jesus, the Christ, you know son of God in the Christian ethic alive. A direct descendent. And that Da Vinci showed Jesus to be married in his famous Last Supper painting.

I see the OP has been flagged for some reason. That's dumb. You guys are acting like a bunch of Fan Boys (or at least how I suppose they act) with regard to this issue.

#109

Quite true andyl. It says a lot more about me than about you ... happily.

#110

I would expect you to feel justified about your posts iansales. Don't be too surprised that I don't agree with them. I also can't help but wonder why you and those who share your views hang around. You're not going to change my opinion, you've stated over and over your distaste for the book ... which you have not/will not read. You and your friends have done your best to malign everyone associated with the book, and of course me. I don't get your purpose?

I make that step 4 in the "Patented How To Win Arguments On Forums and Mailing Lists" programme:

1 - ignore the other person's main point, and rip a peripheral point to shreds; if that fails, move on to...

2 - misrepresent their argument, and then argue against the misrepresented version; if that fails, move on to...

3 - the ad hominem attack; and if that fails, move on to...

4 - play the victim: make out they attacked you and go for the sympathy vote.

Well done, Cyops. A textbook example.

#112

I would be happy to geneg, but as you can see it would simply be flagged away.

#113

How do you know when your math construct is modeling a reality that is more complex than the factors in your equation? Or a better question ... what makes you think you can model reality such that the model and the reality are indistinguishable?

I apologise for my post at #118. It was uncalled for.

Having said that... I'm not sure what point you're arguing in #119. Theories are intended to be tested, and when the evidence shows that the theory is wrong then the theory is amended. That's the scientific method. And has nothing to do with 1 + 1 = 2.

#122

The point is having the cart before the horse. Assuming that a mathematical construct can take the place of an experiment causes one to assert a fact before it is verified. There are many things assumed to be 'facts' exclusively because of the mathematical model ... there is no certainty to that viewpoint.

Please don't tell me that's the way it is done ... that's the point of pointing out the fallacy ... BECAUSE that's the way it is done.

That's the scientific method:

1) hyopthesise
2) test hypothesis
3) amend hypothesis in light of evidence

Without the hypothesis, you might not even knowwhat to test for, or what form the evidence will take.

I hope you're not basing your argument on that old conservative fallacy that gravity is a theory and not a law.

The point is Cyops that you are contradictory, which others have also pointed out

That you are the only defender of a book that virtually no one on the planet has anything to say about, and if someone says anything about it, they are ghosts. They post once in that place, and have no history of having been there ever before.

The point is, that your nit-picking defense, for this one book, where you can cite whole passages, shows such a great affinity for a work that has been out for six months, that it further belies that you are just a reader of the book.

This entire thread shows, if you are not the author, you are a disciple. You started this innocuously trying to drum up more disciples, and were quickly called on the carpet. The attention that others directed to you yesterday further showed holes, and then basic research that I and others have done show that there is no substance to your book.

If you didn't write it, the author wasted his efforts because now as this continues and you further put your foot in your mouth defending it, it becomes more nonsensical.

You can't argue the point about 1+1 in any way other than philosophical or theological. It is highly unintelligent to do so. It is moronic.

You can't defend the writing that is available on Amazon to read as well written, because it is not. It is all tell not show material.

The point is the book has been debunked with enough facts here in this thread, yet you persist in trying to defend it. You have been asked to give out more information but have not done so.

This is not an argument that anyone has to win, except Cyops. Everyone else on this thread won the argument. They read your diatribe in defense and know that the piece of work is worthless.

But if you choose to believe that you have found truth. That this obscure author who no one has ever heard of is your new savior, then enjoy. There are a lot of other fringe beliefs in the world that can not distinguish that 1 + 1 really does equal 2 besides yours.

#119: modeling systems using math IS NOT THE SAME THING AS defining a mathematical system w/ rules/postulates/theorems. Now people much smarter than you or i (Kurt Godel) have proven that no mathematical system can be totally consistent and self-contained (more or less...i AM NOT A MATHS person, though i know a reasonable amount of statistics). But this "philosophical" argument over the "completeness" of any mathematical system has NOTHING to do w/ 1+1 ~= 2 given a pair of rabbits in Australia~! When you model an economic/social/ecological system using systems theory or other math based systems you are STILL making simplifying assumptions that you OUGHT to state up front about how your particular model is designed~
either "the cat sat on the mat" or "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence."

#125 Ian, do you mean you haven't heard of Intelligent Falling?

#125

Yes that's how it is supposed to work. Unfortunately many hyopthesises, or thought experiments, cannot be verified. Nevertheless if the math is logically consistant it is assumed to be factual, and then other theories are spun off relying on the unverified one.

For instance suppose you wanted to build a 'radio' that generated signals faster-than-light. Multiple thought experiments have been done, verified mathematically, and it is an accepted fact that no signals can travel faster-than-light. Does that mean it is impossible to build such a 'radio'? Contemporary physics would say yes ... but does that mean in reality no signals can travel faster-than-light? Because the 'model', or thought experiment, does not mirror reality, but rather is an abstraction, the answer is actually uncertain.

This is, as yet, unimportant in the here-and-now, but in the future the answer might be valuable indeed.

#127 It isn't about the mathematical system definition ... it's about confusing the model, the math, with the real world. 1 + 1 = 2 mathematically, but you cannot apply it to all 1 things added to other 1 things.

It's like the trivial 5th grade question: There are two Americans and two Germans riding in the car. How many people are in the car?

Well, you know the Ancients invented this object called a Stargate that could open and manage wormholes in space, allowing near instantaneous travel from place to place in space. Way faster than the speed of light. One was found in Egypt and another in Antarctica. They've been used for intergalactic travel. We've been secretly using the system since the late eighties, but stopped just recently. Lack of funding?

#131

See democrats are in and they're already de-funding critical military infrastructure!!

#131 Yes and Sleipnir was Odin's horse and could travel from place to place faster than light.

It now doesn't sound like we are discussing a science fiction book objectively. We have characters who are leading science fiction lives...

#131 No they're using it to send foreign aid to other planets. See your next tax bill.

Actually political parties wither away along with the current obsolete government systems in Havamal. Only rogues remain.

Oh, Oh, where's Lunar? Oops, wrong group!

I just have to say this has been by far the most entertaining thread in this group for quite a while. Keep up the good work.

William C Samples is branching out:
The Midway Office an Experiment in the Organization of Work Groups (1972) is the other book under this author's name @ amazon.

"he looked into his own eyes in the mirror and smiled. It was an ironic smile...directed at the incongruity of" a mega thread being triggered by his blue-green eyes which were not common at all.

Maybe Newt Gingrich has adopted another pen name?

#137

I can't speak for Lunar, but I would be surprised if he defended a piece of crap just because it was said to express anti-government sentiments.

I think he branched out into bridge design after that. http://samplesandassociates.com/

The Newt Gingriches were put out of business in Fe Fi FOE Comes. I don't think politicians would look on the book with favor.

This thread has AT LEAST got to guarantee a sequel.

A hack like me was thinking something like "Fe Fi FOE Fumble", but then I thought, "Fe Fi FOE Goes" has a certain ring to it. Harumph. I'm torn.

Ah, the editor will sort this all out - oh, wait...

Even Neal Stephenson whose books have sorely needed editing post the diamond age started out w/ books of manageable length.

it's too easy: fe fi foe blows ellipses, ellipses ellipses.

#145 actually i have 4 graduate degrees from a reasonably reputable university, but who's counting? feel free to browse our library which is about 1/4 online here. Not that i have anything against nursery rhymes.
If you happen to be based in Germany you can find a copy of my incredibly boring dissertation @ the U of Gottingen
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/16529491&tab=holdings?loc=germany#tabs

I sometimes work in Germany, more often Belgium, Italy, France occasionally. I try to avoid Switzerland since I seem to get a ticket by camera everytime I drive there.

I think the title of your dissertation is interesting, but you cannot actually read it on that site. There's quite a bit of medical information in Fe Fi FOE Comes, including pharmacological plants used by the Indians of North America. But it's a bit more than 3 pages into the book, so probably no one here will ever see it ... even fewer would get it. An MD friend of mine did some research in a similar vein as your paper, at least from the title. I didn't find conversations with her to be incredibly boring; she didn't find the book boring.

Part of what I do is evaluate mostly technical original research and applications ... I don't find that boring either.

the topic was good, the research was good, my writing was very academic & boring. And i felt a bit badly for the poor grad student in Gottingen who probably had to read it on microfiche.

I taught grad classes at UCLA for a few years ... after awhile I realised I was mostly repeating myself semester after semester ... the only thing worthwhile was the interaction with the grad students and their projects. Thank God for the seminars to break up the tedium from time to time. Traditional education is virtually obsolete actually ... Heinlein had a much better approach in Space Cadet ... but of course no one ever listens. We have a vested interest in the established process, and it's quite profitable for the establishment. And so we go on.

Academic writing is only boring if you have no purpose in reading it, other than getting credit for the class. IMO

I am so pleased that we have ever more to hear about this book. Everytime we do here more I think the potential audience has to shrink.

Then letting everyone know they are 'thralls no matter what life they lead is pretty comforting.

"Everytime we do [hear] more I think the potential audience has to shrink."

Perhaps we have found that there is in fact such a thing as bad publicity.

I see two posts upthread that might be considered mildly aggressive with abuse flags. This is getting out of hand, folks. If we flag every little something we don't like we'll not have a discussion ere long.

If you need some armoring, might I suggest ninety days on UUNET. Find a couple of good flame wars and hunker down. Newsgroup discussions will either kill you or make you strong.

I see frustration, but not actual animus, except maybe in some of those who disagree with cyops. For all the guff cyops has taken here, I think he has handled it remarkably well. I'm surprised he's still here and even branching out into other threads. Let's think before we cast a flag.

Jeez, I feel like a grownup in a room full of kindergartners.

Since Cyops continues to be personal throughout his quotes, I will say what is on my mind the more I read his comments.

He is in europe often, this book is printed in europe. Well it is not a book since it is a galley edition which has had arguments on this thread, as with the fallacy of his about it being reviewed by the SFWA.

Further he cites teaching at UCLA, where I graduated from myself. Funny that what little we can see of the book mentions downtown LA, though the Hilton in downtown LA is by no means historic. The historic part of downtown LA does include the Biltmore, but Spring Street is more historic then the Hilton, 5th and 6th streets, the east and west streets aren't historic so much as the North-South streets. I have lived here for all of my 46 years. My father all of his 76 years. My grandfather and uncles even owned some of the historic buildings, in the fifties through the seventies.

So I am ever more convinced that Cyops who is so familiar with the book that it seems memorized, is selling the book. Has authored the book and won't come clean about the book.

What I find abusive of the entire process is that the opprotunity was presented to be forthright, and only as the thread lengthened did we find inconsistencies in Cyops posting. And while he won't allow criticism of his book, he is the first to start name calling of those who ask questions of it.

Cyops, your own writing here continually contradicts things you have posted. You are hiding things, that you can't keep straight. But you are correct not only will I never read the garbage that you wrote, I am happy in the thought that those who scream at the moon like you, wishing that the earth will change direction because you are so sure that we are all getting it wrong, will find that the earth won't change. The sun will come up tomorrow in the east. This year the democrats are in power in Washington, and if that changes in another election things will be pretty much the same.

Oh, and 1 + 1 will always equal 2.

The citation from SFWA stands on it's own, and has been clarified twice. SFWA does not put every book published on their CBP page.

The SFWA does not put any books on their CBP page. That list, and the "review", is done by Michael H Payne. ""I'm just writing these reviews as a guy who reads lotsa books, not as any official representative of the SFWA Ruling Council..." Those are his own words. If you claim any kind of official citation from the SFWA for the book, they will ask you to cease and desist.

Further, if I sent a self-published book to the SFWA, hoping that it might be nominated for the Nebula, then chances are it might too appear on the CBP page.

1 + 1 does not always equal 2 ... no one bothered to answer the trivial 5th grade math problem I posted.

Actually several people answered, but since you refused to accept their answers, there seems little point in debating it further with you.

In fact, it astonishes me that you continue to claim some kind of victory in this discussion. Every point you've made has been disproved, every assertion you've made has been shown to be false. And still you insist we are wrong and you are right. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised you're deluded, given your rabid and uncritical defence of what is clearly a rubbish book.

# 160

Of course this isn't abusive to claim I am lying and deluded.

You are incorrect regarding CBP. Many members of SFWA get copies of books. Some they review, some they just mention, some they toss out. Nothing was said other than the book was on the review list which is on the website. If you send them a self-published book ... it 'might' appear on the CBP page ... and it might not. Why don't you send them an email and say that someone is claiming Fe Fi FOE Comes is on the CBP review page, and see if they say they must cease and desist?

Please cite the message that answered the question: There are two Americans and two Germans riding in the car. How many people are in the car? I must have missed it.

"Every point you've made has been disproved, every assertion you've made has been shown to be false" This is a bit much don't you think? You think Hilton is lying about when the hotel was built and that it has been remodeled? Or do you think I made that up? Easy enough to check online.

I don't follow your claim that I'm claiming 'victory'. I started the thread to discuss a book. I intend to do that. That's what these forums and threads are for. Don't you think it's a bit unrealistic to expect the negative comments to change my mind?

In #6, you wrote "Actually SFWA is reviewing it...... which is more than just a mention that it appears on their CBP web page and has been commented upon by a person whose opinions do not represent those of the SFWA.

There are two Americans and two Germans riding in the car. How many people are in the car?

What's the relevance of this?

I started the thread to discuss a book.

But you haven't done that. Your first post was spam. And when you were called up on it, you've defended the book and its author with such fervour that everyone now believes you're the author of the book.

That's simply your own spin regarding the SFWA...

Let me repeat: Michael H Payne himself wrote on that web page: "I'm just writing these reviews as a guy who reads lotsa books, not as any official representative of the SFWA Ruling Council..."

That's not spin. That's a direct quote pointing out that the reviews are not reviews by the SFWA. It's very clear.

I'm ignoring the Americans and Germans in the car, because I fail to see its relevance to the discussion. My comment "you refused to accept their answers" was in reference to your 1 + 1 does not equal 2.

I'm not the only one to label your first post as spam. You'll notice it was flagged and is no longer displayed. That might be a clue.

As for the reason I remain in this thread... well, clearly I'm as daft as you are. You won't admit you're wrong, and I can't in good conscious let you remain so deluded.

#164

Sigh okay another 5th grade math problem. There is an American and a German riding in a car. How many people are in the car? 1 German + 1 American = ? people in the car?

Michael Payne is not the only one in the CBP, but he is a member of SFWA, and he does manage the plan, and he and others do reviews of selected books. The SFWA Ruling Council is something else. You can spin it anyway you want and pretend that Fe Fi FOE Comes is not really on the list, or that all the books on the list are all the books published during the Nebula eligibility time frame, and that any self published novel from any author would be immediately added to the list, but wouldn't count as a review connected with SFWA. The fact is the book is on the list. It may not get a review. It may get a negative review. How much more simple can it be said??

The first post was flagged to prevent people from reading it without specifically requesting it to be shown. It was said by some to be 'gushing praise'. Many many books come out all the time with 'gushing praise', are reviewed by major sources, have front row seats on bookshelves, and gather all the benefits of the major press monopoly ... but this isn't spam ... and it isn't flagged on review sites. Gee I wonder why that is? Nevertheless spam, by your standards or anyone else's has nothing to do with the content of a new book. Most other books 'spammed' into the threads are discussed relative to the story ... not immaterial nonsense.

I love the book ... you hate the book. I stay in the thread about the book to talk about it ... I don't get the 'wrongness' of that compared with hanging around to cure my 'delusion' that I like the book. It's like arguing over whether a car would look better red than blue. Should there only be blue cars because you like blue cars?

This is Cyops' post at #154:

This message has been flagged by multiple users and is no longer displayed (show).
# 151 - 152

You two are NOT an audience of any sort. Your arrogance that your opinion has some reflection on anything is beyond belief ... can you say narcissism?

Don't you get it yet? You don't have to hear ANYTHING more about the book ... find a thread about something you like ... if there is something you like. If no one wants to hear about the book then no one has to be here and no one will hear about it. You're the guys that go to the theater with bags of rotten eggs to throw ... you have no interest in the play at all ... just the fun of spoiling it for everyone that wanted to see it and decide for themselves if they like it.

So instead of talking about a book the thread is filled with your juvenile meanderings.

As one of the "You two" referred to, I have to say that I don't find this anything like offensive enough for flagging. Surely there can be different opinions as to what constitutes wit or humour or juvenile meandering?
There are even flags on Cyops' post "More controversial posts coming ... I have to go out for awhile, then I'll have some more content to post." Abusive? I don't think so.

I also don't agree that the OP was spam. To me, a single post cannot be spam: if he had posted near identical messages in a lot of groups, then he would be spamming. Whatever criticism we may have of the OP, at least it's in a appropriate group.

The Americans and Germans in the car seem irrelevant. There are probably several answers which could be given some sort of support. The Herbert Dingle quote about 1+1, and presumably what Cyops' book says about it, are the trivial observation that the technical use of the word "add" when discussing the natural numbers does not correspond closely with all the everyday meanings of "add". If the book makes a big deal out of that, it's further evidence that I needn't bother to read it.

#166

I mostly agree. I certainly do not find your posts as being hate filled, or even unfair. It's just better to talk about something than complain about everything.

As I said in #165 there are blue cars and red cars. I don't see why all cars should be the same color.

As to the Americans and Germans in the car ... it is quite relevant to the state of current science, which Dingle was talking about, and which Einstein concurred that in principle there is no guarantee of certainly when comparing models and reality. It is also quite relative to science fiction when something which is said to be impossible is required for the story. Many writers make a 'big deal' out of explaining such things as star travel. For instance Starman Jones ... the plot would be hopeless without an explanation of how ships can travel between the stars. If you don't like that book, or wouldn't read it because it deals with the scientific issues in a speculative manner, then of course that's your prerogative ... buy the blue car and enjoy the ride.

Thanks for the clarification.

In my experience, pretty much only theologians and followers of New-Agey woo or similar junk confuse the results of pure mathematics (including logic) with facts about the real world. There must be very very few working scientists who confuse models with reality. So, not an earth-shattering insight.

I disagree. Many theories from cosmology to quantum mechanics and other related fields rest on unverified thought experiments which are assumed to be true because of the logical self-consistancy of the mathematics upon which they rest. As an example the current mulitple dimensional universe theories, which are gaining popularity, and for which there is no ostensive evidence.

For example: http://bccp.lbl.gov/dimensions.html

Cyops, you could help us by making more clear exactly which parts of your posts are citations. The <blockquote> tag is very useful.

The perennial cry of the under-talented: "no one will buy my novel because there's a conspiracy to prevent novels such as mine from being published".

#171 Sorry I could not make the

tag work. No experience with it.

#172

It is not Fe Fi FOE Comes that the charactor is speaking of, but of his own novel within the story. His novel has been outlawed by the authorities who are actively looking for him ... he is living on borrowed time.

Fe Fi FOE Comes is reportedly selling quite well for a non-mainstream book. Sorry if this disappoints you.

Whoever flagged posts 150, 156, and 157 is getting far out of line with the flagging.

(Unless they were significantly different, in a way that violated the TOS, before they were edited. In which case, never mind.)

#173 Cyops

Er ... You just did make the blockquote tag work. That indentation is what it does.

#173

Okay ... I see what you mean. I'll do that next time. Thanks.

As a Los Angeleno, I know that the LA Hilton is at 7th and Fig (we call Figueroa, Fig), the Hilton that you pulled up on the web is what we call The Checkers, as that is what it was named since I was a child, and tried to be as long as it could, until no longer able to survive and bought into the Hilton Management system, then being relabled from their internet web site stand point obviously. But why would I have to look it up, I know where it is, I know it was refurbished in the 80's since I worked around the corner from it.

But we all here call it the Checkers. No one calls it the Hilton Checkers...

what you still don't answer is how your depth of knowledge of your book keeps increasing from a book you finished reading three days ago.

That little piece of double talk has kept me going and confirmed my belief along with the rest of your assertions, that it is your book. Why people don't move on, is in my case that everytime you write some that is ludicrous, it is a good deed to call you on it. Your posts have been negative attacking those who use truth to point out that your posts are wrong.

That is just poor sportsmanship. Your posts attack physical reality of this world, have been argumentative and philosophical, showing that the book you are purporting and the 2 others on Amazon who probably are fictitious also, are disciples of the books religion.

Your words in defense show that the book is more likely a treatise for a cult, rather than a work of Science Fiction, though all that you write in regards to its science suggest that the entire thing is Fiction, though you write as a believer, which puts us back that you act as w mind washed member of its cult.

Without identifying that, and the spam of your first post is because with all this supporting from you, it points toward solicitation for the beliefs of a cult like mentality, that is why this thread needs to be pointed out to those that it is an infomercial for the cult beliefs of the book.

There
Everything Cyops writes points toward selling the book
Often he reveals more knowledge that is centered about the book in later posts that contradict what he is written in earlier posts
The posts don't support current political, social, or physical theory, but point towards extreme minority views that are against the establishment of political, social and physical systems now in place.
The defense of those minority views are vigorous, and detrimental to any who challenge them.

It's not the book that give so many problems, it is the postings at this stage.

>178 DWWilkin: "Everything Cyops writes points toward selling the book".

Part of what all of us do here is sell books, either by talking about how much we enjoy them or in talking them up as must reads. That doesn't necessarily indicate spam. I've noticed that usually when someone is pushing a book to the point of spam they give more details about where to buy and are usually hit and run artists. Seldom (in fact this is the first time I've seen) does someone stick around, especially through the abuse cyops has taken, to continue to flog their book. As far as cyops having a chip on his shoulder, I think he could tone down the nature of his rhetoric, but jeez, he no sooner got here than people were jumping dead in his shit. Now I know he can discuss without the chip, I've seen it in other threads. Everyone needs to brush of their shoulders and stop taking stuff so personal. I for one am tired of seeing so many fragile egos on display here.

As far as the math question from >165 Cyops:, "1 German + 1 American = ? people in the car?" The answer is obviously one.

#179 very good geneg ... if the person in the car has dual citizenship then he/she is the only one in the car. 1 + 1 = 1

Here's another summation:

Fe Fi Foe Comes begins in the police state, or becoming police state, of the here and now. One person has been discovered by the authorities to be writing a manuscript which outlines a future where individual freedom has overtaken the control and economic devastation of the obsolete government forms of the past (the current present). His manuscript describes in detail how and where this revolution will began, and what will sustain it. The authorities have discovered his efforts, and are now seeking him out to eliminate the information in his manuscript.

An innocent bystander helps out the author of the (now) illlegal manuscript, and is now also the focus of the authorities' efforts to stiffle the author. By way of his connection to another person, both he and her are now on the run from the authorities, that have destroyed their planned future. A guardian of the author is persuaded by the author to assist them, and she spirits them away from the control of the authorities. Wondering what has caused this abrubt change to their lives, they are allowed to read what the author has written ... this transports them to the future.

In the future all obsolete forms of government are abolished. The government lock on science and technology has disappeared. Oppression is eliminated, or fought to a standstill, individual freedom is paramount, government appropriation of people's earnings is forbidden. All of this is guaranteed by the FOE.

There is a major challenge to the FOE, maybe all is lost, maybe government control returns. It is the Twilight of the Gods ... will there be survivors?

How can this future fiction happen? It is something to be decided in the here and now ... the revolutionaries all go to HELL.

# 178

Freedom is a cult? Well I guess that might be true to some. Current political, social, and political theory has brought us to where we are now ... some are not thrilled with this fact.

if the person in the car has dual citizenship then he/she is the only one in the car. 1 + 1 = 1

It doesn't work like that. A "German" is a discrete person, as is an "American". If the person had dual nationality, then you're confusing units with attributes of a unit. Not the same thing semantically or mathematically.

Are you SURE a German is a person, Sales?

Last time I visited Germany, each German was certainly a person.

I've kinda been checking in to this thread from time to time, just watching the sparks fly.

What I've been wondering all along Cyops, is for all this talk why not write a review for the book? This thread will eventually die away, but a review will stay on the works page forever.

Some Germans are also Americans.

Good suggestion jseger9000 ... I'm just not very good at it. Maybe I should try though.

#184 iansales "Last time I visited Germany, each German was certainly a person."

Actually, every German has been secretly replaced by an alien zombie indistinguishable from the original! If you don't believe that, you have been fooled by the worldwide conspiracy of alien zombies - bwahaha!!!

#182

The point is you cannot rely on the math. You have to know something about the reality of what you're trying to determine.

It was a myth, he told her, that publishers, recording studios, art galleries, even architectural firms were always looking for innovation and genius. The whole point was to lock up the market … promote authors and artists already under contract to produce more work. Such musicians, designers, and writers were known commodities … multimillion-dollar conglomerates were not generally interested in taking chances … betting on originality.

I have a problem with arguments like this. To me it is usually posited by an unkown musician/writer/artist who is just jealous of others' success.

Sticking with writing, the arguement fails. Look at some of the most popular authors out there: Stephen King, J.K. Rowling, Tom Clancy, John Grisham, Nora Roberts and Dan Brown. (I picked these folks because all of them were doing something that at the time wasn't hugely popular, but has become so popular that their type of stories have started a cottage industry.)

At one point, all of these people were unknowns. They had to work long and hard to make their way to where they are now.

They aren't some manufactured product created by a corporation to sell zillions of books. Dan Brown was going nowhere until his fourth book grabbed the public's attention. Yet he still managed to get a publisher who believed in his talent enough to keep printing his stuff even if it wasn't a big seller.

As for Fe Fi FOE Comes being too... what... controversial to be picked up by a major publisher, look at the success 'John Twelve Hawks' has had with the (from what I've seen) similarly themed The Traveler.

Honestly it looks to me (from my admittedly limited experience with the samples of the book presented on this thread) like the problems the book has is with the prose, not the subject matter. All a 'galley proof edition' tells me as a potential customer is that I am reading an uncorrected rough draft and I'm sorry man, but 880 pages of that stuff would be a form of punishment.

#187 Cyops "Maybe I should try though."

Your summation in #180 is a good enough start for an LT review. Fill it out a bit with why you like the prose style, or that you don't like it but the message transcends the author's limitations or whatever, maybe suggest that the next edition should be edited down to manageable size, and there you are.

Some Germans are also Americans.

You're confusing attributes with objects. If I said there was a ginger-headed person and a woman in a car, then I'm using a single attribute to identify each of the two people in the car. If there was a single ginger-headed woman in the car, I would not separate the two attributes. Language doesn't work that way.

It's certainly possible for books with libertarian themes to be reasonably successful, e.g The Peace War by Vernor Vinge and The Probability Broach by L. Neil Smith.

#190

Actually it is a pretty accurate assessment of market practice. This is not posted by someone who is jealous of anyone ... if you read the book you would know that the person saying this is a relatively famous person who has had a great deal of success ... a charactor in the book Fe Fi Foe Comes.

So-called popular writers ... those on your list ... now write by contract to their publishers. In accordance with the editors requirements. Many such writers have great books that get published, but the follow-ons do not measure up to the original work. For instance Dean Koontz has done some great work ... but his current 'Odd Thomas' novels are not appealing to me ... yet he gets the advantage of the mainstream due to his past works. That's what is being said.

As to talent being a common attribute ... I must agree. There are many many people out there as good as anything you'll find on MTV or in the bookstore.

As for Fe Fi FOE Comes ... I don't know whether it was submitted to any major publishers ... frankly I doubt the author would really care about that given the material in the book. It is certainly not a mainstream book.

As a matter of fact it seems to be selling pretty well ... and that seems to be because those who have read it recommend it to others who purchase it. It is certainly not for everyone, and if you are in that majority then it is not surprising.

I suspect this is someone who wrote a book that he had no expectations about, and therefore set his own conditions on how it would be published and marketed. Maybe he's like the guy in the book that wrote things that sooner or later somone would be outraged with, and didn't especially want that notoriety. I doubt seriously he would be either surprised that most people would not read it, nor would he want a major marketing campaign.

#193 ... Again ... I doubt that Libertarians would advocate or approve of the actions of the FOE. The government yes, but the FOE they would likely not support.

So-called popular writers ... those on your list ... now write by contract to their publishers.

Completely untrue.

An unknown author submits a novel - usually via an agent - and a publisher buys it. This does not happen very often, and less so these days. The author will be paid an advance, typically in installments - a third on signing of the contract, a third on completion of any changes to the manuscript, and a third on publication. The contract may have been, for example, a three-book contract, meaning the author has to deliver a further two books. Advances for those books will also be paid in installments. The editor does not tell the author what to write.

A well-known author may also be on a three-book contract. Once that has finished, any book subsequently submitted may or may not be bought by the publishers. The chances are high, however - especially if they have a proven sales record.

#194

As for Fe Fi FOE Comes ... I don't know whether it was submitted to any major publishers ... frankly I doubt the author would really care about that given the material in the book. It is certainly not a mainstream book

So why the big fuss about the book being suppressed? You mention it in your original post and it appears elsewhere.

As a matter of fact it seems to be selling pretty well .

Second time you mentioned this. How do you know? Certainly from the number of reviews and comments on blogs etc. it has zero visibility. The only reason I have found them was through searching after you started this thread. Before then the book was unknown to me.

#194 - So-called popular writers ... those on your list ... now write by contract to their publishers. In accordance with the editors requirements... For instance Dean Koontz has done some great work ... but his current 'Odd Thomas' novels are not appealing to me ... yet he gets the advantage of the mainstream due to his past works.

Wait a sec. Are you implying that Dean Koontz is writing those Odd Thomas novels because he is contractually bound to do so?

Did Stephen King publish those Green Mile books under orders from an editor? Did they also demand that he avoid his usual horror stories and write a heart warming one instead?

Did Anne Rice dump her vampires and start writing about Jesus because her publisher ordered it?

That clearly isn't the case for any of these authors.

I'm not trying to enter into the debate on this book. It just rankles me when an author nobody heard of complains that their lack of wider success is in some way related to a conspiracy.

(By the way, these aren't 'so-called popular authors'. They are popular authors. That isn't a comment on their quality as writers. Just that they sell a lot of books.)

#197

Please read the Terms of Use.

Do not use LibraryThing as an advertising medium. Egregious commercial solicitation is forbidden ...
Do not repost flagged content in Talk.

#194

What don't you ask the author and the publisher?

The publisher says the Galley Proof Edition is almost sold out. From what I see on Ebay every copy posted there sells. Of course it has zero visibility ... it isn't published by a major publisher ... that's the whole point!

#201

Of course the publisher says it has almost sold-out. Doesn't mean a damn thing. I bet they said that as they sold the very first copy - it makes people think they are buying into a limited commodity.

Of course it has zero visibility ... it isn't published by a major publisher

So what do you call a major publisher? PS Publishing, Telos, Small Beer, MonkeyBrain, Hippocampus Press, Sarob, Ash Tree Press? All of these are far more visibility. About the only novels that have the same sort of visibility are vanity and self-published books.

These so-called popular writers are almost all under contract. Their manuscripts are subject to editing before they are released. It isn't a 'conspiracy' it is market practice. Writers want their books to sell, they go along with their publisher in order for them to sell. For instance Tess Gerrittsen wrote the marvelous book Gravity before her medical thrillers ... the publisher says the medical thrillers sell better, so that's what she writes ... ask her if you don't believe me.

Koontz and King have more lattitude because they are more popular, but they still have editors and still edit their work. Look at Koontz's novel movies .. or F.Paul Wilson's ... they bear little resemblence to the books, but the authors took the money ... why? An exception was Crichton ... he produced some of his own stuff and it was great ... 13th Warrior for instance.

They are 'so-called' popular because that's part of the media, mainstream publishing, hype. Who would you compare them with.

Unheard of authors vastly outnumber so-called popular authors ... in many cases they write masterpieces with which Odd Thomas cannot compare. This is a simple fact of the market ... I didn't coin the phrase 'unsung genius'.

# 201

So in accordance with your own conspiracy theory the publisher is lying?

A major publisher is one with the wherewithall to insure their releases will be reviewed by major sources and have a front row seat on the bookshelves.

#170

A very interesting quote that one. I find it repeated at Tess Gerritsen's blog but without that first paragraph, the one that begins "Das had ...". The writer of that had the name DasV on her blog. A later post shows a strong congruence with Cyops's library. We also can see that DasV was amongst the first to tag the book on Amazon and also in a spat on Wikipedia.

See DasV's UserTalk page on Wikipedia
and the Afd for the Fe Fi FOE Comes (this latter is quite an interesting and informative read).

#206

I would consider a link to an ebay seller to be a commercial solicitation. Egregiousness is in the eye of the beholder.

Also even you cannot doubt that your post 197 was a repost of something that was flagged in to invisibility (you mention it in the very post) so it fails on that score if nothing else.

Interesting that the same argument on the SFWA "review" crops up on that Wikipedia afd page. In fact, interesting that much of Cyops comments here also crop up on that same page... Looks like the only conspiracy here is the one that involves Cyops, DasV, SC Morsak and William C Samples -- all of whom might well prove to be the same person.

Oh, and for the record, calling Vel North a "publisher" when they have only a single book on their list, is a bit rich.

#206

Then by all means flag it ... again.

I note you have not yet posted your own literature here so that it can be compared with the rubbish of Fe Fi FOE Comes. I'm still waiting.

# 208

Your forgot Herbert Dingle ... who might be the same person also.

Don't worry Cyops, I have. I consider commercial solicitation AND reposting a flag far more serious than mere insults. This group like all of LT is self-policing.

Also I don't understand your second sentence. Does that mean that your "literature" has been discussed (maybe here on this very thread)? Anyway I am not a novelist - one doesn't have to be a novelist to be able to determine quality in what one reads, or even to be able to properly critique or review a work.

#209 I note you have not yet posted your own literature here

Is this an admission that Fe Fi Foe Comes is your "own literature"?

#210 Strange that DasV also seems to be a fan of Herbert Dingle's theories... Would Dingle's arguments also happen to appear in Fe Fi Foe Comes?

The second review on Amazon of Fe Fi Foe Comes is by John Stephens, who gives his location as Idstein in Germany. Which is, coincidentally, about 30 kms away from Mainz, location of the eBay seller of the book. The Fe Fi Foe Comes review is Stephens' only review on Amazon.

The back cover of Fe Fi Foe Comes features a blurb by... "Das", of Alta Mira, Alaska. And on Tess Gerritsen's blog, DasV leaves a comment saying, "The Small Press Dept at Barnes & Noble contacted my publisher almost 3 months ago indicating their buyer would soon be placing an order for my SciFi novel Fe Fi FOE Comes, Galley Proof Edition..."

So DasV is definitely a pseudonym of William C Samples.

And yet the arguments used by DasV on Wikipedia are the same being used here by Cyops...

Some interesting reading here. It's a transcript of an appeal by William C Samples against a speeding ticket.

>205 andyl:, 213

Game, set and match, I think.

#87
Why would you defend doing that condensing lines in a work to 'bad writing' (your opinion), yet be appalled that it condensing lines in a work was done to 'good writing? Is your sense of right and wrong tied to the popularity of the work being plagiarized?

I would only complain about the abridging of a work when the style and quality of the writing is a major part of the allure of a book, or if it is condensed so far that part of the plot is lost. Yes, Shakespeare could be condensed so that you might only need spend a few minutes in reading it, but you would lose artistry in his writing.

On the other hand, I have no problem with the condensing of work by, say, Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert. (Sandworms of Dune has been rubbish so far, about as much as I had expected).

#203
Writers need editors to look for spelling mistakes, to fix minor inconsistencies within the book, and to make minor suggestions.

If writers are simply ordered like robots, and are required to constantly churn out books that fit in to their own sub-genre, why would John Grisham write books like Skipping Christmas, A Painted House or Bleachers which do not involve any courtrooms or lawyers? Or why would Jeffrey Archer write The Gospel According to Judas? It's a poor argument.

There might be more than a few popular authors that I do not like to read, but I do respect the effort and writing skill they have put in to get where they are today, because when they first started writing, they were unknown writers, too.

The eBay post of Cyops that keeps getting flagged is for a 99 cent print of Dorothea Lange's Migrant Mother, which she shot for the FSA during the Depression. Like most of this thread I fail to see it's relevance.

# 216 -217

The abridgement of Shakespeare was to show the improper abridgement of the opening lines of Fe Fi FOE Comes, and for no other reason. It is something no one would approve of in the case of Shakespeare, but which is fine by those in this thread when applied to other work for the simple purpose of belittling it.

Editiors make more than 'minor suggestions' ... try Grumbles from the Grave by Heinlein, or F.Paul Wilson's blog as a few examples of writers complaining about having their material edited. It is not that they are robots, it is that they are driven by the market. The more popular an author is the more they retain the ability to prevent such edits. It is also why some writers change publishers.

Actually there are many many talented authors who never get published. Being at the right place at the right time, and getting a manuscript selected for publication by a major publisher works much like a slot machine.

#213

You have to buy a book to post a review on Amazon, which means you must have a credit card on file. So your supposition is that I created the persona of John Stephans, and bought a copy of my own book so I could post a review. Then, following your reasoning that I got a speeding ticket in Anchorage, AK, I did the same thing there and created the persona of 'Phil' to do that review also. I read the Afd on Wikipedia you posted, many of the arguments there for deletion are the same as the critiques here, so following on your conspiracy theory I assume that the posters/editors there are simply other user names of yourself and others here. That would make some sort of convoluted sense I suppose, and explain why my posts here are flagged ... to suppress any information about the book. Continuing on in the conspiracy I suppose I have created multiple personas in the US, UK, Ireland, and other countries ... all with different credit cards, to purchase my own book over and over again on Ebay, Amazon, Alibris, etc. I guess I bought up several bookstores in the US and UK so that I could have copies for sale there also. Anyone on any site with the name 'das' or any variation thereof is also the same person, since that name appears in the book.
Oh I almost forgot, I am Herbert Dingle too (he is not really dead) and also Elvis I guess.

You should write a book about this yourself ... then you'd have some literary material to reference. You could call it How to Make a Bestseller Out of Rubbish All by Yourself.

#215

Now after reading the Wikipedia Afd I KNOW you are one of the editors there HoldenCarver, they never got beyond the cover of the book either.

Come on guys come clean ... you're all in iansales' conspiracy to keep Fe Fi FOE Comes suppressed.

#218

The relevance was to the references to the Hell communities in the book, which people went to because of the police state and the economic devastation everywhere.

#220 - You have to buy a book to post a review on Amazon, which means you must have a credit card on file.

That isn't so at all. I write reviews for movies I've rented all the time. I also post reviews for books that I bought elsewhere.

If Amazon worked the way you suggested the review pages for books by the likes of Ann Coulter or Al Franken would be a lot quieter. (Whether that is good or bad, I don't know.)

#220

Really? Well you have to have purchased something. If you use an alternate account then you must have purchased something from that account and your account name will appear on the review. So according to iansales theory I would have had to create the Stephans account, supply some means of payment, and buy something before I could write a review with Stephans' name on it. Same for 'Phil'.

From Amazon.com

Want to write a customer review?

To write a customer review: you must have used this account to complete a purchase* of an item from Amazon.com. Please wait 24 hours after your first purchase before writing a review.

If you have another account: and you have already used it to make a purchase, you can sign into that account to write a review.

Other options:

Go back to the item you were just viewing
Visit Your Profile

* A purchase requirement is used to maintain review quality. Learn more about writing customer reviews.

All of the silly math semantics posted by Cyops makes me think he is a LaRouchite. Like Cyops, Lyndon LaRouche is fond of talking about irrelevant mathematical pseudo-puzzles to try to illustrate arguments that don't make sense.

# 225

This is a science fiction thread about a science fiction book. How would you propose to explain being able to communicate faster-than-light, or to build a starship with the contemporary scientific understanding of today, and not have any reference to math? Heinlein wasn't able to do it in his books, nor was Dickson, etc. Were their semantics sillly? Should they have been edited out?

There are plenty of threads about science fiction in which people don't play semantic games with 1+1 statements. Heinlein was able to write numerous science fiction novels in which faster than light communication and starships existed with no references to math at all. So was Asimov, Clarke, Anderson, and a couple dozen authors. But the non-sequitur seems to be your stock in trade, so its not surprising that you respond to a comment about your semantic games by talking about the pseudo-math in the pseudo-novel you are hawking.

Wow it just gets more outrageous every day...

The neat thing about all this is that Cyops could be a contributor to the community, except for not coming clean.

Throughout the thread we have contradiction after contradiction.

Whenever another member of the community, with credentials established, a serious library, posting and supporting in the forums, reviews, CK, has asked for specific clarification, we get smoke and mirrors, and insults saying how just by asking proves that it makes you a member of the mainstream establishment that of course would try and ban the book.

Then when called on the carpet again to substantiate how so much is known about the sales of the book. No hard facts. When the establishment has been against the book from the outset it is through the eyes of a character in the book, and the fiction of its life, that Cyops assures us is what the author has gone through to publish it.

Cyops has lots of friends who have read it, and they are professional people, but they don't exist on LT to add to his voice, or on Amazon.

When pointed out that the world of publishing does not work as he describes, he becomes defensive again, saying that it does and that his example proves it. Well I am sure that there are total pieces of garbage that readers get to the first paragraph and drop at all the major publishing houses.

Knowing writers and editors, and knowing that they get stuck with a great deal to read through, I am not surprised when they can't get hooked in the opening sentence to pass on it.

The entire he looked in a mirror and he wasn't tall and he wasn't short and he wasn't fat and he wasn't thin, and he wasn't good looking and he wasn't bad looking and he wasn't and he wasn't and he wasn't was more than enough to kill the book. So self publishing it must clearly be. What else can you call a publishing house that has no other book. Not in any attempt to suppress subversive thought, just unappealing fiction.

For I have to keep reminding myself that everytime Cyops talks about the book, it is a work of fiction. Not the memoirs of a failed novelist who can't get published and believes that two bunny rabbits are enough to take over a continent, or that germans and americans all together in a car, really are one person.

I do hope that one day we will have a subjective, objective review, so that we can truly find out what the plot is.

What we have heard so far is a philosophy expounded on by a disciple.

(By the way, for those who wonder about hotels in downtown LA, Checkers was never a great hotel of our city. The Biltmore is, and well worth your stay if you have something to do in downtown, but not much happens but business downtown these days. The Ambassador was great in Mid-Wilshire, but after Bobby Kennedy was killed there, not so great. the Beverly Wilshire is wonderful, despite being bought up and part of the Regent chain and their calling it the Regent Beverly Wilshire, again we call it the Beverly Wilshire. (It has since been bought up by the Four Seasons Chain, and they again call it the Beverly Wilshire, even though they built there own hotel about 3 miles away.) Just some of the historics, we also have the Bel Air, The Beverly Hills Hotel, etc. The Hilton that we think of as the Hilton hotel in Los Angeles, is the Hilton at Santa Monica and Wilshire, the Beverly Hills Hilton, since that was at one time where Hilton Corporation had their offices, has the giant ballrooms, and such great restaurants as Trader Vics, and Mr. H's)

my vote for best SF story centered on math is Ted Chiang's "division by zero" which is included in Stories of your Life and others. My choice for best collection of short SF stories, ever.

#224 - True, you must have purchased something on that account at some point. But you do not have to have purchased a copy of the book you are reviewing. So your supposition is that I created the persona of John Stephans, and bought a copy of my own book so I could post a review. That's what I'm getting at. I have bought stuff from Amazon (or most likely their marketplace sellers) therefore I could write a review for Fe Fi FOE Comes or any other book or movie or what-have-you on their site, not just on exactly what I have purchased there.

Just so you know Cyops, I'm not against you and don't have any real opinion on whatever the debate here is. I do believe that you are indeed the author of this book and should either 'fess up or just write a review on the work page and let that be that.

But once this all blows over I hope you still feel free and welcome to post on other threads here on LT. What's happened here in this thread is unfortunate, but the site overall is a lot of fun.

#227

I recommend you not go near the pseudo-novel. Sorry to have bothered you with my questions. I see you are not here to discuss, but to insert invectives. You have much company here.

???

#228

I applaud the change in your posts. Your theories have become much more interesting to read. I wonder if you could point me to anymore disciples of freedom you've discovered in your cult investigations ... I'd like to meet them.

As for self-publishing iansales will soon be posting that he discovered that since I am in Mainz (and Anchorage at the same time) I actually broke into the Gutenburg museum and printed the novel myself in the night. The worst part was getting that Elmers glue off my hands the next morning.

By the way the Westin Bonaventure is in the book also. Most in LA just call it the Bonaventure, but then it is still a Westin hotel. I guess if someone said it was the Westin that it would gravel you to no end.

#230

Yes I agree with you. I assumed it was the book I would have to buy, but it is just anything to have an account and post a review. Of course the address is tied to the form of payment I would suppose. Nevertheless to create the reviews as suggested I would have to create the accounts and buy something.

I agree with your suggestion about the review. As to the author, I can't see how it could be more obvious that he wants his privacy ... for whatever reason, maybe there would be problems associated with any notoriety. I have to respect that.

I appreciate the quality of your posts.

This one's for you DWWilkin:

Back on the street he fell back into his jogging pace heading East on 5th. Shortly after crossing Main he made a left turn on Los Angeles Street. A mile later he crossed the Hollywood-Santa Ana freeway, and ran on until he intersected Alameda Street just past Union Station. A quarter of a mile on and about thirty minutes after the phone call to Terri he stopped in front of Philippe’s Restaurant, caught his breath, and went inside.
Philippe’s is one of the oldest continuously operating restaurants in Los Angeles. It has been serving breakfast, lunch, and dinner since 1908. The atmosphere inside has changed little, even though it relocated in 1951 when the Hollywood-Santa Ana freeway was built over the original site. The tables and booths are all built in, and there are no waiters or waitresses. Across the front of the kitchen is a massive refrigerated display case for salads and deserts; you order from one of the three to six servers standing behind the case, depending on the crowd, and they make up your order while you wait in line. The menu is varied. You can have eggs, sausage, and other side meats for breakfast, and for lunch and dinner you can have hot roast beef, pork, or turkey sandwiches, cold tuna fish salad, cheese sandwiches, or even chili. Top it off with macaroni salad, potato salad, coleslaw, or maybe broccoli or tomato bisque soup. Finish with cheesecake or any fresh baked pie, with or without ice cream as you like it.
They also serve their roasted meat sandwiches with au jus, and they call them French Dips, because Philippe Mathieu first dropped a fresh-made sandwich into the juice from the roasting pan by accident in 1918. The customer took it anyway, loved it and came back for more, and the French Dip was born …. in Los Angeles not France.

I'd eat that sandwich.

They are the best ... trust me!

# 228 if you google the book's title, you#ll find lots of recommendations for it on various forums and as comments on various blogs. All of them are by "Cy."

This sort of behaviour is not uncommon among a certain breed of self-published author. They think their book is the best thing ever written, so clearly there's a conspiracy to prevent its publication. And anyone who points out that, well, it's actually rubbish, is a part of the conspiracy. Said authors also make free use of sock-puppets to post approving reviews and comments on as many sites and forums as they can access, including Amazon and Wikipedia. One even went so far as to fake a photograph showing him sharing a signing session with a famous fantasy author.

Do I think Cyops, DasV, William C Samples and John Stephens are all the same person? We know DasV and Samples are - he admits as much on Gerritsen's blog. The fact that exact same argument has been used on Wikipedia and here by Cyops and DasV suggests they're the same person, although DasV appears to have a better command of English than Cyops... The court case in Alaska shows there is a real William C Samples, and John Stephens on Amazon is a "real name" (TM), so they can't be the same person. I suspect Stephens is a meat-puppet.

#219 Actually there are many many talented authors who never get published.

Just about the only true thing you've said in this thread. Although from the excerpts I wouldn't say Samples could be described as a "talented author".

#238

This is laughable. Fe Fi FOE Comes has BEEN published. It is selling despite the fact that it is not a mainstream book. Do a check on Ebay at the number of books, bestsellers even, that are for sale, the number of bids on them, and the winning bids ... US - UK - Ireland. Compare that with the bids on Fe Fi FOE Comes. Do a query at Alibris or Amazon and see how many copies are available at books stores ... in the US & UK. If there is a conspiracy to prevent the book's publication then it has failed miserably.

The idea that Cyops aka DasV aka William C. Samples created John Stephens and 'Phil' and everyone else that has commented on the novel is a clear example of a conspiracy theory. By the way you forgot that while 'I' was getting a speeding ticket, writing the novel, printing it and binding it in my garage, 'I' was also designing a multi-billion dollar bridge and mass-transit system. http://samplesandassociates.com/
Let's not leave that out. Give 'me' some credit for being a very busy guy!

The reason you wouldn't say Samples could be described as a 'talented' author is because you haven't read more than a few lines he has written. You're the guy that finds the treasure map, and tosses it out because it was written by a semi-literate pirate and the map starts with 'Treshur Be Hir'.

#239 The reason you wouldn't say Samples could be described as a 'talented' author is because you haven't read more than a few lines he has written.

But the first three pages and every single passage you quote here are almost, and I say almost not because there are good bits but because that some that are absolutely awful, uniformly bad. I haven't seen a passage that you have quoted which would entice me to read the rest of it even if provided for free let alone entice me to pay for it. Honestly it ranks amongst the very worst writing that I have seen.

Fe Fi Foe Comes was probably self-published. It is the only book published by Vel North Editions. There is no record of Vel North Editions existing before Fe Fi Foes Comes was published.

Completed listings on ebay.co.uk show only two copies sold, both for £10.50, and both to the same buyer, mjg16642. There are currently two active auctions for the book on ebay.co.uk - both with 5 bids and both standing at £9.33 (€ 10.50). Strange that the amounts should all be the same...

Incidentally, the seller on eBay is dasvotan9 - and we know DasV is the author. And yet he's in Mainz, not Alta Mira, Alaska; or even Anchorage...

The plot thickens...

#240 To be fair, it's not the worst writing I've ever seen. That honour must go to Robert Frank, who is so bad he's an absolute genius - see the preview here.

#242

Yes you are absolutely right. That doesn't even read like it was written by someone who speaks English to any degree of fluency. Even the description is laughable.

I actually bought a copy of Cab Ringer. I'm going to take it to the Eastercon...

That, as said in #240 is a 0 out of 5, if I ever saw one. Truly appallingly bad. Perhaps even a -1. :)

In fact, I am positive I have a lot more talent than that.

#240 - 241 - 242 - 243 - 245

I thought you read the Afd on Wikipedia? You should at least be able to read English if you're going to comment on it. Must be those meds you're still taking to get over the Fountainhead. You missed a lot.

More of the conspiracy theory. Now Cyops aka DasV aka William Samples is aka dasvotan9 and several people on Ebay ... and we/it/them/I are buying all the books on Ebay. Wrote it, published it, printed it, have stooges everywhere to comment on it, and even buy all the copies. You really should make a story out of this. Get andyl and bluetyson to collaborate with you. We/it/them/I will publish it for you, spread it all across the internet, and buy all the books too!

I can see that Fe Fi FOE will surely become a bestseller now ... it's impossible for there to be many out there with your lack of acumen.

Please do go on.

#246 What did miss on the afd page?

I saw the claim that the book has been banned in several countries. Discussed here and determined to be misrepresentation of the facts.

I saw the claim that the book is being reviewed by the SFWA. Discussed here and determined to be misrepresentation of the facts.

I saw claims that Vel North Editions is an English-language imprint of Morsak Verlag - although there is no evidence to support this. Interestingly, Morsak Verlag is based in Grafenau, a town 470 km away from Mainz, location of dasvotan9, the seller of the book on eBay. Not conclusive of anything, by any means, but there are no documented links between Vel North and Morsak Verlag, other than the name "SC Morsak", the editor of the book.

I saw a somewhat impersonal email from "SC Morsak" to DasV on the subject of being "banned" by Wikipedia. Which I find very odd since DasV admits in a comment on Tess Gerritsen's blog that he's the author of the book (see here). So why would his editor phrase his reply so formally, or tell him about the publication history of the book?

I saw that DasV never once admitted that he is the author of the book, although we know he is.

I saw claims that the book is selling well - hundreds of copies, apparently - although ebay.co.uk currently only shows two completed auctions and two ongoing auctions.

I have also seen...

Cy giving the book 5 stars on GoodReads.

Cy recommending the book in a comment on the Ludwig von Mises Institute blog, plus a further comment about the book and "censorship".

Cy recommending the book on an eBay forum and also in an eBay discussion.

#248

I think the amusing thing on the Afd page is that "the publisher is the US subsidiary of a European publisher with hundreds and hundreds of titles." So simultaneously the book is published by a major publisher and has been ignored by all the major publishers. A nice trick if you can pull it off.

#248 -249

You obviously did not read or comprehend the Afd article. Nowhere does it say that Vel North is an English language imprint of Morsak Verlag, or that Vel North has anything to do with Morsak Verlag. It clearly says Morsak Verlag was sold in 2003, and that it appears Vel North was a spin off of another verlag operated by the family that had owned Morsak Verlag prior to the sale in 2003 ... which had published hundreds of titles prior to 2003.

Nowhere does it say Morsak Verlag was or is a major publisher, and Morsak Verlag prior to 2003 published only German titles.

The other issues are only a rehash of the same old material. None of which is germane to the thread. You claim:

"This sort of behaviour is not uncommon among a certain breed of self-published author. They think their book is the best thing ever written, so clearly there's a conspiracy to prevent its publication."

Somehow you miss the fact that the book has already been published, and when called on that you insinuate that all the sales are to the author himself ... he is buying all the books, so being published doesn't count! I assume you think he is 'somehow' forcing the bookstores that carry the book to carry it. Then you go back through the same old hash that it is on the SFWA CBA list, but that is meaningless, and then that the publishing doesn't count because the publisher only published one book. You completely misrepresent the Afd and claim that it claims that Vel North is an imprint of Morsak Verlag ... which was never said and is completely false. You insinuate that every comment ever made anywhere is made by the author, because even though there is hard evidence of sales you cannot comprehend that anyone could possibly like this book that you have worked yourself into a frenzy over. You sound remarkably like a number of the editors at Wikipedia, and raise many of the same arguments ... the difference being they were arguing notability, under which policy the article was fairly deleted, whereas your purpose is to malign everyone involved with the novel ... which in your conspiracy laden mind is only ONE PERSON.

I repeat myself: As to the author, I can't see how it could be more obvious that he wants his privacy ... for whatever reason, maybe there would be problems associated with any notoriety. I have to respect that.

As to me 'promoting' the book ... I have said many times I like it ... there are no other threads on it, I started one and have tried to discuss the book. If you hate the book because of whatever that is fine with me ... but this pejoritive abuse over everything but the book is ridiculous.

I'm boggled that a publisher who specialised in "die Landschaft, die Menschen, die Kultur, die Geschichte und die Entwicklungen des Bayerischen Waldes" would end up publishing an English-language science fiction novel.

Somehow you miss the fact that the book has already been published...

I've suggested that the book has been self-published. This is no way means it has not been published, it merely that the publisher is also the author. It's not unusual.

it is on the SFWA CBA list, but that is meaningless

Correct, its presence there is meaningless. But I haven't seen your apology yet for misrepresenting the CBP mention of it.

You completely misrepresent the Afd and claim that it claims that Vel North is an imprint of Morsak Verlag

I admit I got that one wrong.

You insinuate that every comment ever made anywhere is made by the author

But DasV is the author. He admits as much. And he has made many of the comments about the book that can be found on the Web. The rest are attributable to you.

there is hard evidence of sales

I see "hard evidence" of two copies sold. Not the "hundreds" you claim.

I don't hate the book. I think it's a badly-written book. What I hate is the lies and misrepresentation used to sell it.

#242: iansales "... not the worst writing I've ever seen. That honour must go to Robert Frank, who is so bad he's an absolute genius - see the preview here."

Cab Ringer is truly amazing. Could it be computer generated?

I don't see what difference it makes that a publisher that publishes material on the Bavarian Forest publishes English SciFi. Are you boggled that a publisher that specialized in auto repair manuals published Dune?

You specifically alluded that the author was crying about a conspiracy to prevent his book from being published ... when you know it has been published. As to self-publishing I doubt it, but Tamerlane, Tarzan, The Shack, and many other novels have been self-published ... it's not actually a crime yet.

Since I published the SFWA CBP page in full for all to see, I fail to see your complaint, or any need to apologize. It is hardly deceptive to post the information. If it is meaningless why do publishers send the CBP their books?

I'm glad you admit that was wrong.

Yes it appears DasV is the author from the TG blog. It was referenced on the Afd. Try signing into Ebay as DasV, or using that as a user name in most any free email service ... there are many many of them. Is the DasV on Wikipedia the same DasV? Sounds like it. But if so why would he reference the TG blog where DasV said it was his book?? This is strictly against WP rules to post your own book.

The rest of the comments on the web are NOT attributable to me. I am not Stephens, or Phil, or Dubutante or any of the others.

You did not look very hard. There are 3 copies now on Ebay, 1 at $11.70 one at $13.46, Go To Hell just started ... there were 4 the other day. The book has been on Ebay for months, always on auction, always sold. Maybe some went by 2nd chance offers. If you do a search at Alibris you'll find several bookstores that carry the book ... where did they get them? Alibris sells them from the publisher. Amazon showed 1 new one in stock, with more on order, and 2 used ones last time I looked. The publisher says the GP edition is almost sold out ... unless it's POD, which I doubt from that press, the first press run had to be in the hundreds just due to price. You admit to 2 LOL.

Many people will agree with you about the book ... you didn't like the Fountainhead .... many loved it many hated it. Want to debate the quality of the writing or the story ... be my guest. All this other stuff is meaningless ... The lies and misrepresentation is in your mind ... you are not someone to sell this book to. I was hoping for a dialogue, not an attack.

#250

To quote dasv - "If you bothered to check you would know that the publisher is the US subsidiary of a European publisher with hundreds and hundreds of titles."

If that isn't saying that it is published by a US subsidiary of a company that has many hundreds of titles I don't know what is. If your comprehension is so hot you should have noticed that I made no mention of Morsak Verlag at all. I would say that my post 249 is still very much relevant. dasv simultaneously claims it has the backing of some unnamed (and probably unnameable) large European publisher and that it has also been unfairly overlooked by the major publishers.

#253

But when we did try and debate the quality of the writing you claimed that it didn't matter as "Poor writing is a subjective appraisel." and a little later "The novel is not written in 'English'". You stated that "You cannot evaluate this novel on contempory standards" and then descended into your rather strange 1+1 spiel.

Note: misspellings in the quote appear as originally written.

#254

You need to read ALL of the Afd:

Germans are notoriously reticent to discuss personal or business information with strangers. However from perusing the websites it appears that the Morsak – Stecher family operated Morsak Verlag from 1884 until 2003 when it was sold. All of the titles in the catalog before that date were published by that family. Since then members of the family have organized another verlag (this means publishing) and have done something like 20 books, spinning off Vel North to do their first English novel due to ISBN issues and marketing in the US. Probably S.C. Morsak is a member of the immediate family. You are welcome to send them an email, I doubt they will provide any details, but will likely confirm their publishing of the pre 2003 titles and the current ones under the new company.

This is what DasV said.

The 'hundreds of titles' are in German. You cannot sell English books well in Germany. It says nothing about the backing of a 'large European publisher'. Nor anything about 'self-publishing'.

#255

That was explained as you well know. Both you and iansales (and others) had already declared it to be incredibly poor writing, and rubbish. This has not changed, and never will.

Are you boggled that a publisher that specialized in auto repair manuals published Dune?

Chilton had started up a science fiction list, run by Sterling Lanier, a sf writer and editor. So there's nothing particularly unusual about Chilton buying Dune.

You specifically alluded that the author was crying about a conspiracy to prevent his book from being published

The letter from the publisher states: "When we decided to publish the novel we were aware that it had been rejected by mass-market publishers, and that institutional sources such as libraries would likely not pick up the book. We also knew that conventional reviewers would probably not review it."

Sounds to me like they think there's some kind of conspiracy preventing the book from seeing the light of day.

Since I published the SFWA CBP page in full for all to see, I fail to see your complaint, or any need to apologize.

Sigh. You wrote, "Actually SFWA is reviewing it..." (#6). This is not true. The SFWA does not review books. The organiser of the CBP has mentioned it on a list of books in the plan. The plan was specifically set up to ensure that SFWA members were aware of, and had access to, all books which might be nominated for the Nebula Award.

But if so why would he reference the TG blog where DasV said it was his book?? This is strictly against WP rules to post your own book

So he didn't mention it because Wikipedia does not allow authors to use it to promote their books? So instead he hid his identity and posted it to Wikipedia...

Here's a telling comment:

Cyops wrote, please enjoy your perspective (#27).

On the afd page, DasV write: I give up. Enjoy your perspective. DasV (talk) 10:32, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I also note that the back-cover blurb says, In some jurisdictions such material is banned, and cleverly does not say that the book itself has been banned. Cyops, however, wrote, it is bannned material in several countries (#6).

It's clear to me now that Cyops is not the author. But clearly he's some kind of disciple.

#256

Mine was a direct quote - "hundreds and hundreds of titles" is a relatively large publisher.

BTW I know very well what verlag means. publisher or publishing house is the usual meaning when referring to a company. Although Germans are in the main not very forthcoming about private matters, things like discussing a company name and listing that company's products are everyday occurrences just like everywhere else. We have none of that here. As I said earlier the European publisher remains nameless.

This one's for you iansales:

Quote from the book - Welcome to Hell:

Behind the bar was a pleasant enough looking man, maybe early thirties, his hair was shoulder length drawn back in a pony tail, dishwater blonde, as was the color of his trim beard and moustache. He had a drink in front of him and was reading a book. Everyone was wearing jeans, boots or hiking shoes, and flannel or chambray shirts, even the women. Most of the men had long hair and beards, just as the bartender did. At least half the people in the room were wearing guns, including the bartender who had a large single action revolver in a fast-draw holster. Jean and Terri crossed the room and went to the bar near where he was reading.

Terri was more or less dressed for the place, but Jean felt out of place in his workout sweats. Everyone had seen them come in, but took no particular notice.

“Joe … Jane,” the man closed his book and moved over to them. “Welcome,” he said affably.

“Hello,” Jean replied, as did Terri. “We’re looking for 2-Quick. Can you help us?”

“Two quick what?” he smiled.

“No … not what … someone named 2-Quick.”

“Well that could be anyone,” the man replied. “Course it’s damn hard to change your name even if you get it before someone really thinks out whether it’s a good one or not. Puts me in mind of someone that picked up a grizzly cub and named it ‘Snuggles’ … then when it bit him he thought maybe he’d named it too quick, but the name stuck nevertheless, and that’s what the bear is still called … ‘Snuggles’.” He’d related the response as if telling a story.

Terri laughed and the man smiled at her. Jean was not amused, “No I’m not explaining this very well,” he said. “It’s an unusual name, but the name itself is ‘2-Quick’ … we’re looking for someone named 2-Quick and we were told he was here.”

“And you want to know where this 2-Quick is now? I don’t know where people go after they leave here usually. You’re sure the 2-Quick you want isn’t here?” The man looked around the room.

“No I’m not sure he isn’t here!” Jean was getting frustrated. “He might be here … we were told we’d find him here.”

“Now look Joe,” the man leaned against the bar so as to get closer to Jean. “You just said you were looking for someone named 2-Quick who ‘was’ here, then you say he ‘might’ be here. So this is someone who was here before but might have come back and be here now?”

Jean was stunned. He had no idea what to answer, but the man went on.

“So if this 2-Quick person ‘might’ be here and you’re asking for him then you don’t know who he is do you?” He seemed proud of himself for figuring that out.

“No … that’s the whole point in looking for him-”

“What makes you think he wants you looking for him, or wants to be found by you then?”

“I don’t know!” Jean raised his voice. “I was told to look for him here by a friend.”

“A friend of yours or a friend of his?” The man looked at him suspiciously.

“Maybe both!” Jean replied. “I can’t say!” He was getting angry.

“Well then Joe I don’t think I should get involved. Can’t see where this 2-Quick would think much of me letting you know who he is … if I should know you know.” He paused then. “How about I get you a beer?”

End Quote

Um, yes. Not sure what prompted that...

#260: "He'd related the response as if telling a story".

As if?

Every time a clip of the book is posted, the writing just gets worse and worse. I'm not sure how you think that posting poorly written segments of the novel is supposed to show anything other than the fact that it is a poorly written novel.

How is Lyndon LaRouche doing these days?

Oy vey. That writing sets the skin to crawling. I think Cyops has actually worked his magic! I want to buy this book and plow through it, the way one plows through, say, a weedy, rock-filled meadow with a hand-propelled lawnmower.

Delicious prose.

Cyops, do you type each and every work that you extract from the book, or is it cut and paste?

As to Phillipes, that is indeed one of our most famous long time joints to eat at.

Here is their websites history

>>
Philippe The Original is one of the oldest and best known restaurants in Southern California. Philippe's was established in 1908 by Philippe Mathieu, who claimed the distinction of having created the "French Dipped Sandwich". One day in 1918, while making a sandwich, Mathieu inadvertently dropped the sliced French roll into the roasting pan filled with juice still hot from the oven. The patron, a policeman, said he would take the sandwich anyway and returned the next day with some friends asking for more dipped sandwiches. And so was born the "French Dipped Sandwich", so called either because of Mathieu's French heritage, the French roll the sandwich is made on or because the officer's name was French. The answer is lost to history.
Harry, Dave and Frank Martin were in the business of renting horses and wagons from their Jewel stables when they purchased Philippe's from Mathieu in 1927 for around $5000. They operated the restaurant 24 hours a day, 7 days a week until World War II. The business grew steadily through the depression of 1929 and World War II mainly by virtue of the dedication and perseverance to duty of the hardy Kansans.

Philippe's was forced to more to make way for the then new Hollywood-Santa Ana 101 freeway, and in 1951 relocated to the present location, which was a machine shop with a hotel on the second floor. Change does not come rapidly at Philippe's, so most of what we are today is very much what we were and did years ago. We like to say that only the prices have changed.

Philippe's "Frenched Dipped Sandwich" is the specialty of the house and consists of either roast beet, roast pork, leg of lamb, turkey or ham served on a lightly textured, freshly baked French roll which has been dipped in the natural gravy of the roasts. Swiss, American, Monterey Jack or Blue cheese may be added. To accompany your sandwich we offer a tart, tangy coleslaw, homemade potato and macaroni salads, hard boiled eggs pickled in beet juice and spices, large Kosher style, sour dill or sweet pickles, black olives and hot yellow chili peppers. Philippe's prepares and serves close to 300 pounds of pigs feet every week.

We prepared about 40 gallons or our own hot mustard twice weekly. It is best used sparingly as it is a truly very hot French mustard. However, used with discretion, it compliments then sandwich to perfection. It may be purchased by the jar at the front candy counter.

Delicious beef stew is prepared daily made from choice beet and fresh vegetables; two soup selections are offered each day, as well as out chili and beans.

Lemonade, iced tea, milk mineral and seltzer waters, and a variety of soft drinks are served. Domestic and imported beers, our house wines and several premium wines by the glass and bottle are offered.

To top off your meal at Philippe's, try one of our desserts. A large variety of cream and fruit pies are offered daily. In addition, we have ice cream, New York style cheesecake, our baked apples, custard, tapioca, and fresh fruit.

Hearty breakfast are served from 6:00a.m. To 10:30a.m. Daily. Some of our breakfast items include eggs(any style), bacon, sausage, ham, corned beef hash and our own fried potatoes. Ask for our fresh homemake salsa for the egg dishes. In addition, omelets, cinnamon French toast, pancakes, and a variety of fruits and juices are offered. Coffee is included with most breakfasts. Featured are our biscuits, cinnamon streusel coffee cake, cinnamon rolls, donuts and muffins, all baked in-house.

The price of a cup of coffee remained a nickel until 1977, when it increased 100%, to a dime.

The way service works in unique. There is a long display counter with 10 servers, (we call them "Carvers"), many of which have been working at Philippe's well over 20 years. Each Carver has everything she needs to prepare your meal. You get into one of the 10 lines, and when you reach your Carver, she can take care of your whole meal; make your sandwich or fix your hot dish, serve the salads or soup, give you coffee or a glass or wine, add it all up and take your money. The plates are paper, the service is fast. There are ceiling fas, neon soft drink and beer signs, sawdust on the floor, a few booths and long wooden tables with stools. Seating is family style. It is not unusual to sit with peopple from all walks of life at the same table. There are press clippings and civic citations on the walls, and you can weight yourself on the same scale that was used by Norman Rockwell for trhe Saturday Evening Post. You can make yourself at home.

In 1951, when Philippe's closed its doors on Aliso Street, Matt Weinstock, then a report for the Los Angeles Daily News wrote "... Philippe's was something special. It had sawdust on the floor and cracks in the wall but you didn't care. You went there for the luscious French-dipped sandwich, the boiled eggs, the hot mustard, the potato salad, the coleslaw, the immense hunks of pie, the always hot mugs of coffee. You also work up at night, maybe thousands of miles away, yearning for one of those sandwiches."

More than 35 years later, Merrill Shindler of the Los Angeles Herald Examiner wrote, "... Philippe's is more than food. It's one of those marvelous phenomenon's I find myself constantly drawn to in an effort to connect with a bit of L.A.'s too often ignored past... What can I say? It's Philippe's. It's the Original—and it always will be."

And finally, MacDonald Harris of the New York Times ("Real food in L.A.," March 1990) wrote, "There is an air of camaraderie among the customers, a kind of unspoken friendliness and consideration that's rare in a big city...the customers are people of all kinds: shoppers, residents of nearby Chinatown, businessmen, Amtrak workers from the station, people who have been coming here for years and are now brining their children. More than any other place I can think of, Philippe's typifies the democratic spirit Los Angeles..."
>>

Now I am not saying that you or Samples have never been to LA. My hunch is though that you havent.

One of the biggest things about Phillippes is that it is covered in sawdust. I remember entering there as a child and asking my father about it. The sawdust of course helps in cleaning up the au jus.

Also. the percentage of people who eat anything but the French Dip, the reason why we in los angeles go to Phillippes, is so small it probably equates to the percentage of people who believe that 1 and 1 is not equal to 2.

The travelogue description, and the pseudo history in your extract are again examples of lousy writing.

To finish his run, he stepped into the landmark dinery, Phillipes as he always did when in LA. At least tried to. One of the few dining establishments to have an international reputation. The immigrant hispanic countermen would quickly serve the long lines that stood perpendicular to the counter eight and nine deep. The shouting was so loud that hearing oneself think required effort, and his wet sneakers attracted a great clump of the sawdust that was strewn throughout the floor. But one bite of the french dip was enough to remind him why not only he, but millions had come since the first world war for them.

I don't want to be accused of rewriting Shakespeare, but surely there was some way to show the reality of a place rather than the internet history of a place.

Fe Fi Foe Comes could well be the literary equivalent of Plan 9 from Outer Space. Perhaps William C Samples is channeling the ghost of Ed Wood - or is that unfair on poor old Ed?

#264: So, your best response is that you don't like my profile picture. You who has no profile picture (which would make sense if you were simply a sock puppet as many have suggested).

Wow. You really are a wonderful advocate for the book. It is a wonder that with a proponent of your skill at arguing in its favor that Fe Fi Foe Comes has sold any books at all. Even the four copies for which we actually have confirmed sales.

Did the time spent in prison for tax evasion cause Lyndon any trouble? Have you been inside his creepy compound?

This is for andyl - Stormraven - Wattsian
Pick the role that suits you.

Quote from the book:

“Don’t forget the dark side though … it is as much of our nature as that which is sublime. Countless sorrow and misery, cannibalism of the flesh and of the soul, wars never ending; that too is man’s heritage. More people on this world are hungry than are fed, many more in chains of one sort or another than are free. A world of parasites raised almost to the status of gods whose sole contribution is their control of people’s lives.” He looked weary with the thought.

“I can’t accept that it has to be that way!” Terri blurted out angrily. “I don’t believe that is really our nature!” She shook her head at the consequences of accepting the alternatives Das had named; even though she knew what he said was true. “We have been tricked … conned into believing that we are supposed to be that way … that it is natural!”

“Yes,” Das nodded his head sadly. “Exactly my point Terri. Can you see now why I cannot imagine, refuse to imagine the future with those horrors never ending? Do you understand now why those people of tomorrow that I create should have a chance to be real? Not that they must become real, but that there be a chance for such people to exist. Is it proper that they should never exist while a plague of twisted vermin shall continue to doom the human race to a status much lower than any of their animal cousins?”

End Quote

Cyops,

You didn't like my profile photo? It's just one I needed for my job. It did its job at the time, and I've been too lazy to replace it anywhere.

What exactly didn't you like about it? And how does that relate to this thread? I'd very much appreciate an answer to these questions.

I stand by my earlier assertion a few days ago that this thread is perhaps one of the CLASSICS of the Internet. If it were published in a pamphlet, like a 17th-century political screed, I might buy it.

Wattsian

Cyops,

Also, I apologize if you felt picked on or belittled because I said the writing in the book that you didn't write and just finished reading a couple of weeks ago wasn't good. If that was why you picked on my profile picture or my looks, I apologize for unintentionally goading you into a personal attack.

I'm glad you liked the book a lot. It's good to read books you like.

Wattsian

#265

Thank you DWWilkin ... I knew you'd appreciate the quote. I taught at UCLA, but that's Westwood, and at their design center in Santa Monica. I worked in Burbank for awhile, lived in Canyon Country and Upland for awhile. Used to eat lunch at La Luz Del Dia alot when I worked downtown, it was owned by a friend of mine, Vanessa's dad. But you should follow your hunches ... probably I've never actually been to LA. Probably the author hasn't either.

Here's another quote since you liked that one so much:

Quote from the book:

They continued east along Beverly Boulevard for a while with no one speaking then Terri spoke up from backseat. “Listen I know this probably sounds inane, considering what’s happened, but I’m starving. What’s the chance of grabbing a bite?”

Vera laughed. “Doesn’t sound so crazy to me. No doubt they’ll pick this car up soon enough when they start reviewing the tapes, but I think we have an hour or so at the least. Anyplace you know nearby?”

Jean knew where they were, he turned to Terri. “How about Tommy’s? It’s only a few blocks further.”
“Works for me,” she said.

“Tommy’s?” Vera asked. Terri and Jean looked at each other; she was not an Angelino the question betrayed.
“It’s a hamburger joint,” Terri told her, “if you like hamburgers it’s a place with real ones.”

“Suits,” Vera said. “I can eat anything.”

Within a few minutes they pulled into Tommy’s parking lot, and after Vera grabbed an oversized purse from the back they went in. It was indeed a hamburger joint; it had survived for something like sixty years serving great burgers. There was a sign on the door to the effect that some of the food served inside did not meet nutritional guidelines of the California Department of Health, and of course the warning that consumption could lead to heart trouble, stroke, or diabetes. Arriving at the order window, following Jean and Terri’s lead, Vera ordered a chili cheeseburger and fries, and insisted on paying for all three orders. The fat tax on the burgers and the sugar tax on the sodas caused the meal for three cost the better part of two twenty dollar bills.

Once with franchises in many parts of Los Angeles, Tommy’s cut back to the original location a couple of years ago. The major fast food chains switched over to vegetable filler and vegetable oil for burgers, and juice based drinks, to meet the requirements to avoid the taxes. Places like Tommy’s, that had a signature taste of real beef for burgers and chili, and that still served traditional soft drinks, had prices much higher that the chains, and were no longer competitive.

End Quote

Every quote just gets worse.

Now it reads like a poorly written restaurant guide.

And more and more like a Lyndon LaRouche pamphlet.

Cyops, you do know that Tommys does not have an indoors, don't you?

Beverly and Rampart...

There is a stand at the corner which is surrounded by the parking lot, and the storage rooms on the outskirts of the parking lot. My memory is that at one time they also served hamburgers from the storage room side, but that got cut back to the hut at the corner. You walk up and place your order and get your burger.

They all come with chili on it so if you don't want the chili, you have to tell them not to put it on it.

So if there is a door where your sign would be, it is the entry for employees into the hut.

http://www.originaltommys.com/images/crowd.gif

Stormraven, sorry for the restaurant and hotel lore of LA if that is bothering you. What bothers me is that we keep finding inconcistencies in the story that Cyops tells us. And then it further changes almost every time something new is called in question.

Dated isn't the question. Perhaps you could read and see why that picture is up. Besides, with Sons of Anarchy on the air, your assessement seems a bit off.

I've seen more than enough of the book. Quite enough to know it is a crime against the English language.

#274

DWWilkin do you know that Tommy's doesn't actually have: a sign on the door to the effect that some of the food served inside did (does) not meet nutritional guidelines of the California Department of Health, and of course the warning that consumption could lead to heart trouble, stroke, or diabetes.

And did you know there isn't actually a: fat tax on the burgers and the sugar tax on the sodas

And this isn't true either: Once with franchises in many parts of Los Angeles, Tommy’s cut back to the original location a couple of years ago.

See this is 'fiction' DWWilkin ... it's like ... sometime beyond now, when things have changed. Like there really isn't a James T. Kirk or Spock ... see it's 'fiction'. Think about it ... you'll catch on. I'll post some more excerpts for you in a bit to see if you get it.

274: The restaurant lore doesn't bother me. The accurate versions posted by those other than Cyops that is. The quotes from the book, on the other hand, read like a resturant guide written by a junior high school student who hasn't actually been to the resturants he is reviewing.

I mean to come up with a clumsier line than "it was indeed a hambuger joint", one would have to do some serious work. And Vera "grabbed an oversized purse"? Not her purse? Just a random one? And on and on - just about every line has something that makes your eyes water in pain.

# 278

Oh there are much clumsier lines than the one's you hated Stormtrooper:

Quoted from the book:

It really was a nice restaurant, modern yet with the atmosphere of hardwood floors, accent walls, and an open beam ceiling. There was a central fireplace, but no fire since such was illegal, and it was filled with a wooden bucket of flowers. There were maybe twenty tables, each covered with a white tablecloth and a centerpiece. Some unobtrusive music was playing softly, and the lighting was indirectly low with spots on the tables. Only one table had guests; there was a young couple, man and woman, and an elderly man seated. There were four table settings, a wine cooler, four glasses of wine in front of the guests, and an empty chair. The fourth in the party was the woman outside smoking.

She had waved her cigarette in the air to clear the smoke then put it behind her, looking away embarrassed when the trio went through the entrance.

The room adjacent to the dining room was a small, but equally pleasant barroom. There was a bar towards one side, and half a dozen small high tables with stools. The room was empty.

A man in a dark suit approached the three, and apologized for not hearing them when they came in. When they indicated they wanted to eat he showed them to a table across the room from the other visitors. He gave them menus, and stood patiently by until they had selected drinks. He went into the bar to fix the drinks while they made their choices from the menus. He was the host, the waiter, the bartender, the chef … and also the owner.

End Quote

Ah, I didn't like Tommy's, though everyone else in Long Beach seemed to. (Did that location close down?) I went there and didn't know you had to specifically ask them not to dump chili on your food!

I never cared much for In-N-Out either. I know, you'd think California must have kicked me outta there.

I preferred the (usually Greek owned) greasy burger joints that were scattered all over California instead. No matter which one you went to, there would be a picture of the Acropolis on your cup.

Man, I miss California.

#278

A normal person would wonder why she had an oversized purse ... actually it was because it held a change of clothes for her. A person with no curiousity and no imagination would just close the book ... dumbfounded.

There used to be a hotdog stand ... I can't remember exactly where now ... but you got a hotdog and free legal advice while you ate it. The hotdog was good ... the advice was marginal. I guess that's why he sold hotdogs.

#281: No, a normal person wouldn't care about whether "an oversized purse" was oversized. A normal person would be wondering why someone trained monkeys to randomly pound on keys and have the results self-published.

#283

Vanity I suppose. Same sort of impulse that drives people to ridicule others ... boosts their ego.

No, Tommy's has expanded the same menu throughout the southland.

The fiction part of Cyops book is that they closed locations. Now in this economy they might, who knows?

The point about Phillippes and Tommy's was that they were not accurate portrayals of what truly exists.

Now, I expect to get a discussion of the Pantry next...

So you are the author of the book.

Because otherwise you wouldn't be insulted by someone criticizing the lousy prose contained therein.

# 286

You're new to the thread Stormtrooper ... people have been criticizing the book since #2. Not to worry ... you fit right in.

Given the excerpts provided in this thread, it seems almost inaccurate to call what is being talked about a "book". That appellation would imply coherence and readable sentences.

#285 - I do agree with others about the prose. But to be fair to the author, I lived in California for almost thirty years. I moved to Texas seven years ago. If I were to write a novel about Los Angeles based on my recollections I probably would make the same sort of mistakes he has (except for everyone in a bar packing heat. This is supposed to be California, not Texas!). Nitpicking on details is fun, but doesn't prove much. Clive Barker wrote the Great and Secret Show about the U.S. either as he first moved here or just before and didn't do a whole lot better (except with his prose).

An editor would have corrected the more egregious errors, but as has been discussed...

I think this is a bit more appropriate than the restaurant scenes to this crowd:

Quoted from the book:

“Now the defining elements of culture included an education, to learn the proper ethics such as hard work, paying one’s taxes, and to acquire enough knowledge to perform useful work. What follows is the acquisition of a job; some circuses to circumvent boredom, and taxes to prevent the acquisition of wealth, thus insuring workers will stay at work. Throw into the mix the prevalent ethic that leisure, outside of time off from work, was somehow evil; except for society’s celebrated members.

“Not to worry though. Under the system, work hard for forty years or so, and then it is then permissible to live a life of leisure in retirement … if one could afford it … if one was still alive. Mostly the inflation of the fiat money issued by the state reduces pensions to the poverty level of society in short order.

“The perfect closed system was achieved. The system now in place virtually worldwide, with only variation to mark a difference.

“It is important to realize that almost no one is bothered by this system, and there is no evil conspiracy that created it, or that maintains it. Almost everyone is reasonably happy, if not ecstatic about his or her culture, and would quickly become defensive, if not offensive, should anyone complain about it, or try to alter it. The standard of living for members of the most successful of the national societies is such that few want for anything … except those things that would increase their perceived status beyond that of their neighbors.

“Most everyone admires the members of the oligarchy, wish they were members too, and encourage their offspring to aspire to such positions. They have every reason to be happy … they are told this repeatedly. For those who gain the ranks of the oligarchy, they are suitably impressed with themselves, and would argue that it proves the value of the system. They enact laws and regulations, garner more sources of revenue, and regard themselves as the ones to determine all of the solutions to any problems that might arise. All this is done with the best of intentions.

“Of course domestic birds in cages are happy also. They are born into their condition, and they have nothing with which to compare it.

End Quote

Cyops, have you read The Traveler? if you haven't, you should. I think you'd like it quite a bit. Sorry, I know I've mentioned it before, but the more I see of this book the more I'm reminded of that one. (I admit I may be missing the finer points of philosophical distinction there may be between the two books.)

#289

The scene from the bar was in Hell jsegar9000 ... Hell is in Alaska. Carrying guns is common ... especially at this time ... a fictional but near future.

#291 ... the reviews are interesting jseger ... I'll see if I can find a copy.

#292 - ... Hell is in Alaska.

I thought Hell was in Norway. Oh man! I crack myself up!

293: Well, it is a mainstream book, so you should have no trouble getting a copy. It is also, therefore, a part of the grand conspiracy to hold your book to four known sales, so you'd be aiding The Man by buying it. I hope that doesn't offend your sensibilities.

290: You know, that was much better when it was originally written by Ayn Rand. Her prose isn't great, but at least it isn't Tim LaHaye level awful.

Hell:

Quote:

It was the rural communities that were branded as ‘Hell’. The culture was baffling and nonsensical to those of the outside world, and of that perspective. You could not acquire the basics of life in these places unless you understood what was really happening and apply it … in other words you had to be simpleminded. The amenities were at best rustic; unless you could mostly entertain yourself and mostly enjoyed being in the wilderness, there was not a great deal to do. It became common for tourists that were used to the modern world with all its conveniences, catered to and pampered by a multitude of attendants, to avoid such communities.

One man told his friends about a visit to one of the off-the-beaten-path neighborhoods, while on vacation in Alaska. “The scenery was beautiful, but all the buildings were horribly rundown. There was nothing for sale, no rooms for rent, the people living there just gave everything away to friends that came visiting. The local yokels were all just shy of enough sense to be half-wits … one man threatened me with a gun because I offered to buy a six-pack of beer from him! Those places are Hell I tell you! Hell!”
And so they were.

#295

Your attribution to Ayn Rand is not accurate. The fact that you find it awful says a lot about you.

Sorry to leave, but I have to go workout. I'll post some more excerpts later.

Cyops, are you sitting in front of the computer with a copy of the book so you can type these quotes? The turnaround is truly blindingly fast...

I like how you have chosen to jump on StormRaven's name.

No one of course has jumped on your name with the obvious reference to vision.

In all that still people try to play nice here, one of us doesn't.

I agree that the nitpicking about those who used to live in the city may have shoddy memories. I thought more about Tommies, and think that adjunct burger area is set up for when there is an overflow around the hut.

But the Phillippes reference without the sawdust, that was just totally wrong, and the Hilton Checkers as if it is an important landmark hotel, not at all...

So it brings to mind the questions I have asked.

The fact now that so much is lifted from the book so quickly, further enhances my belief that we have the author on the other end of those posts.

295: Yes, it says I can identify and correctly label poor writing as being poor writing. A skill the author (a person who seems likely to be you) appears not to have.

299: I have chosen to ignore Cyops childish riff on my handle. Given the fact that I have now come to believe that Cyops is actually the author of Fe Fi Foe Comes (based on his statements and reactions in this thread), and the prose in the book is Eye of Argon level awful, I figure that a juvenile jab like that took a lot of effort for him to come up with.

#299 i was guessing "psy-ops" ?

At this rate, Cyops is going to have posted the entirety of the book on this thread so in order to continue this highly amusing bickering, we are forced to set eyes on this appalling piece of 'writing'.

I wonder what kind of insult I'm going to get thrown at me, given that I know nothing apart from when I want to scratch my eyes out when trying to read an extract of a book.

Lovecraftian spell: Display excerpt of "Fe Fie FOE Comes"

Damage: -7 SANITY

History: This spell was recently translated from the Book of the Deep Ones by a thoughtful scholar who has since put out his own eyes with a rusty stapler. Cthulhu's minions who cast this upon unwitting Internet users achieve a twofold goal.

First, the spell works by loosening the connections between neurons in readers' brains by reading. Little by little, with each repeated or new excerpt, the read excerpts threaten the sanity and language skills of the spellbound, horrified users. This makes brain-numb readers more likely to accept conspiracy theories, read self-published works, and eat their own fingers.

Second, if in the event that every excerpt from the 800-page monstrous tome "Fe Fi FOE Comes" were ever exposed to mankind on the Internet, in print, or in the blood-curdling howls echoing from German insane asylums, then great worm holes and interstellar monstrosities would bubble, explode, and roar through the cosmos laying waste to all existence.

You have been sufficiently warned.

Wattsian

EDITED: For grammar.

I wonder what kind of insult I'm going to get thrown at me, given that I know nothing apart from when I want to scratch my eyes out when trying to read an extract of a book.
Since many of his insults seem to be aimed at profile pics & screen names, I'm going to put my money on something along the lines of "crazy cat lady." :)

#299

Diid you like the way Stormtrooper chooses to identify me with Lyndon LaRouche and company? I guess that's okay.
As to 'playing nice' all of the posts choose to attack the merits of the writing ... of course missing the information being conveyed. All that is okay with me, but I have chosen to go on with my original purpose of the thread which is to discuss the novel ... this means I will post excerpts from it that I personally like. You can continue to vomit your lack of approval to your hearts content. Again as has been said over and over ... if it is so distasteful then go away and don't look at it. I will have the thread to myself ... nobody will be watching ... and you will not be doubled over with convulsions with the 'horror' of reading anything to do with the novel. What could be better?

#300

Why do you hang around to watch offensive prose? Go find a thread about books you love. No one is forcing you to be here.

# 302

Close. Psyops would be for human to human manipulation Cyops would be for cybernetic operations.

#303

Quite so. Leave now and avoid the torment of seeing it.

#304

Life is we know it is almost at an end Wattsian. The forces of good and evil will now determine the future. You think the current worldwide crisis is simply a coincidence? Those with lives of no consequence are simply disposable pawns in the game.

#305

What insults? I never insult anyone.

I think you look like a sweetie Medilla ... I'd like to join you for a drink.

Cyops,

Do you know if there are any plans to put this book in an e-book format? I'm getting a Kindle soon and want THIS to be the first book I download.

Seriously.

I'm ready to buy it and read it.

Wattsian

306: Your math based semantics are exactly like those deployed by Lyndon and his minions. If the shoe fits, I'll put it on you.

The "information being conveyed"? An innacurate restaurant guide for Los Angeles? (Yes, I know, the story is set in the future, so things have changed, but the passages convey no information other than that). The turgid banter of people attempting to be witty in a bar "as if relating a story"? Silly rehashes of imitation-Rand musings on the state of the world that haven't been "new" or "fresh" for fifty years? A long-winded description of a perfectly ordinary man with a smoking problem?

All the excerpts do is show how poor the writing is. There aren't any ideas that haven't been written about, and written better, numerous times. The primary means by which a book conveys information is via the writing. Even if the information allegedly being conveyed were insightful and interesting, the writing is so bad that there is no reason to care. For the record, it isn't, the fact that a hamburger joint "was indeed a hamburger joint" and that a restaurant famous for serving french dips was serving french dips is boring. The alleged "interest" that an oversized purse - a type of bag carried by thousands of women every day - is supposed to bring to give rise to questions is just laughable. Really, your attempted explanations about what is supposed to be insightful or revelatory in the passages cited just makes them sound even sillier.

At present, since you have stopped trying to deny it, we can safely assume that you are actually Samples, and refer to you as such. Here is advice I thought I would never give: go read the Left Behind series and copy the writing in those books. It would be an improvement.

Something offcenter:

Quote:

“Love? Love is about an unquenchable hunger, a passion so powerful it cannot be ignored. In the face of love,” he spoke softly, “all resistance is futile. Sex is momentary, ephemeral ecstasy at best without love. No one with a good opinion of themselves would trade sex by itself if they could have the true geld .. love with a worthy lover. It alters lives, and even the barest slice of true love … a moment, an evening, a day’s worth, can become a treasure to be pulled from the memory and ignite those feelings again many years after it has passed. It is the most powerful of all compulsions."

#301: StormRaven
Eye of Argon is a good comparison. Based on the extracts available to us, I would recommend reading Eye of Argon rather than FFFC. Though the extract at #290, which you compared to Ayn Rand, was a bit better than most.

Cyops, maybe it's just me, but I still think extended quotes are better presented between <blockquote> and </blockquote>.

(Minor edit.)

#311: I think you look like a sweetie Medilla
Looks can be deceiving. ;)

Btw, I can't help but notice that my profile has received a visitor from Mainz.

#312

I think the Go to Hell ad on Ebay is actually a marketing device to draw people to the actual auctions for the book. Strangely enough the ad says you can have the Go To Hell CD or the novel at your choice. These Go to Hell auctions are very cheap ... they are almost always much less than the book auctions.

I have no idea if the book will go to kindle. My guess is that if anyone from Worldcon nominates it then it will go online as a free pdf format. B&N and a few others now offer 'free' ebook additions ... I have no idea if the publisher will participate.

#306

Time for you to move on Stormtrooper ... this has all been said before.

#316

Looks are not everything Medellia ... without a mind to go with it there's no real attraction for anyone of merit.

If it was Mainz it was rerouted from Munich.

318: The libertarian fantasist, who tries to give others orders. Nice.

#315

I agree jimroberts ... I'm just clumsy ... everytime I try it it comes out wrong. I promise to try again.

#316

Not an order ... a suggestion. You're clearly miserable here reading all this horrible material ... I was trying to be kind. Please stay as long as you like ... sorry it is such torture.

Here's another:

He was serious then. “I don’t know what the future will bring Dana. I was thinking about that in the context of my own life; I never planned any of this,” he swept his arms around to include even the Palace miles away. “It’s what I want now, more than anything, and I always worked to have the knowledge and skills to be qualified, or maybe worthy is a better word, but I could not have foreseen this. I think love is the same, and what I feel now when I think about you is love.”

“I understand Ace. I feel love, respect, admiration, many other things about you, and of course lust,” she smiled at him, “I want that, something like that, from you. That’s so very much really.” She smiled at him.

#315

How's that jimroberts?

323: "She smiled at him" . . . twice - repetition just makes smiles bigger apparently.

Dana and Ace - maybe they are refugees from the Ambiguously Gay Duo.

Still, "she smiled at him" is better than the rest of the passage cited, I guess that must be why it is in there twice. Once you come up with a coherent sentence, you have to stick with it.

Or this:

“What do you know of death twisted child?” Jo pulled out a chair from the table and sat down facing Toni on the floor. “Death is but a train we all have to catch to the next plane. Those who succeed on a plane advance, those who accomplish nothing repeat, and those who fail go back. Vavan’s train will take him forward; yours will be a long ride back. You are a mistake, nothing more than an accident of transportation. It happens sometimes.”

Toni twisted around and sat on the floor facing the old woman. “How can you know what is so wrong with me?” she asked her.

“That’s easy. You do not choose good you choose evil. Such creatures are common at the beginning of the journey, but choosing wrong they cannot make progress, and so are left behind on levels that they cannot advance beyond; doomed to repetition. Even if they succeed and reach a higher plane it is of no importance, because they will fail there and be sent back. Somewhere along the line you had a spark, you choose the good, a moment of success, then choosing evil you extinguished it, and now you are here … waiting for the train back to where you fit.”

“You speak as if such nonsense were real.” Toni said to her, but with no disrespect.

Jo laughed at her. “You know that it is real. You know it because you know what you are. Unlike others, you know that you are evil. You have no pretenses … your mind is beyond that. That same spark that brought you here is what made you decide to die with Vavan … that spark this time was love. Evil creature that you choose to be, you douse it.”

“It was not a choice of evil,” Toni entreated her, “it was a choice to correct the wrongs done to my father-”

“You know that to be a lie,” Jo told her smiling. “Why should anyone help your father? Who do you help? What value do you put on doing something good for anyone else? You do not believe people can want to help others, because you have no such capacity. One of your precious toys was taken from you, and you must get even. It is all just a game to pit yourself against the greatest adversary and destroy them, and if the result is lakes of blood for the innocent, then so what.”

326: Each passage is worse than the last.

#325

Have you ever seen a forest?

328: Oooh! A total non-sequitur.

#324: Cyops "How's that jimroberts?"

Thank you, yes, nicely formatted, keep it up.

But "I was thinking about that in the context of my own life;"? Does anybody ever talk like that?
Now '... and of course lust,” she smiled at him, “I want that"': much better.

#326

Why do you put yourself through such torture? Do you spend your recreational time pulling the wings off of butterflies? Have you ever killed any of your pets? Have you given any serious thought to seeking help for your malignant self debasement??

#330 thanks

People I know talk like that ... rarely. Unfortunately you cannot edit what is in print. Maybe when the first edition comes out the proofreader and editor will make such changes. I want both copies.

#332 Cyops "thanks". You're welcome.
"Maybe when the first edition comes out the proofreader and editor will make such changes."
Yes, proofreaders and editors can be really useful. Think how much better Harry Potter 5 would have been if edited down to a reasonable size, and other HPs would be less annoying if somebody had edited out the references to Dumbledore looking up through his half-moon glasses. (Though the HPs are good in spite of the flaws.)

Sorry but I have to leave for Romania now ... with luck I'll be back late tomorrow and can share some more of the content of Fe Fi FOE Comes with you.

I hope you're enjoying this Medellia.

Later all.

To Cyops:

If you aren't the author of the novel, or someone deliberately promoting the novel on behalf of the author, could you see why people have reason to think that this might be the situation? You get on LibraryThing, and the first post you make on this forum is to talk about a small-press book and how much you love said book. Surely if someone else done the same thing, you might be suspicious of their motives.

331: I wonder why you do that too. I mean, you apparently read through (actually, I think you sat down and wrote) 870+ pages of this intensely bad writing. And you spend your time fruitlessly trying to convince everyone that a sow's ear is actually a silk purse. One wonders why you continue.

Here's a pair of challenges for you. They should not be too hard:

1. Why don't you review the other books in your library. There's only 21 (the last time I looked). Let's see what you consider good and bad in them.

2. Tell everyone what stunning insights you think are contained in the incredibly poorly written quotes you have drawn from the book. Show us what is concealed in the Eye of Argon-style writing.

Finally 332: That is why writers usually edit their material BEFORE putting it into print. It saves a lot of grief. On the other hand, since Jerry B. Jenkins would be embarrassed by the level of skill displayed in the writing of your book, I don't think an editor could fix it.

> wow, what an incredible gerbil wheel (just catching up by skimming the latest 178 messages). Don't some of you just want to get off it and go do something else?



Reminds me of the ole cliff & condor days:-)

I miss Cliff. I hope he comes back soon.

#335

To rojse

Having read these posts do you seriously think this is promoting the novel? I've discussed it in other places, but I don't think I have ever seen such a collection of know-it-all, mean spirited, negatively oriented, rude people in any other forum I've ever been in on any subject. And that's not just their posts in this thread ... it's pretty much the same attitude they show everywhere.

Ordinarily, I would have posted a few of my thoughts on the book and other books, as I have in other forums, and engaged briefly with anyone who was interested, and moved on. Some have said the book is not for them, not a theme they enjoy, something they wouldn't read, etc., that's to be expected, and such opinions I respect. But this group of censors and would-be book burners have attacked and maligned everything associated with my posts. I don't like witch hunters, and those who would be more at home in the Inquisistion ... I started the thread, I see no point in letting them take it over, and smuggly move on to a new victim. They can stay here and continue to insert their malicious drivel ... and I will post from the book.

#336

You see? Malicious drivel.

340: I notice you won't bother to respond to either challenge, which is to be expected.

You aren't being censored, and neither is the book. The book is merely just bad, and people have pointed that out. The writing excerpts that have been posted have been awful, and nothing in them is in any way insightful or even particularly interesting.

You have been invited to write reviews of the book and the others in your library so that people can see what you think about them, and why you think they are special. You haven't.

You have been invited to explain what in the excerpts you have posted is supposedly illuminating, revelatory, or otherwise good. You haven't.

The only person who is to blame for a lack of understanding of your book is you. You started by writing it poorly. You then published it without proper editing (and it is amusing that you now complain that a book can't be edited after publication), and you refuse to explain why anyone should give the book any time at all other than to ridicule it when they talk about The Eye of Argon, The Forest Oracle, and Left Behind: A Novel of the Earth's Last Days.

Instead, you huff and puff. Blustering about how people who don't "get" the brilliance of Fe Fi Foe Comes are too dim to understand it, or part of a conspiracy to censor it, or any number of other patenly silly arguments. Which just makes you look even more ridiculous with each post.

One must remember that Cyops also has a tendency to belittle and insult any challenger.

Criticism is never met with discussion, but with assuming that the critic is arrogant.

The posts on Cyops background suggest that he should be a mature man, or woman, though I would say man. He has purported to have been all around the globe. A lecturer at my alma mater, appearantly, yet his rebuttals when he accuses the other posters who have questioned his credibility, have been to call them juvenile.

He of course is the one who continually uses insulting language in his posts to drive home his point. Now I have reached middle age, and today was involved in an arbitration, so it got me to thinking about what we say, and what we should say.

I remember being a younger man, and being a stupider man, and look at much of what was written and try to connect what has been printed with a mature persons perspective.

The reason why the thread has a lot of posts I think from others than cyops, but it is cyops posts that are flagged as abuse, and then deleted, are that many of the posts solicit for the book as if Cyops were indeed the author as many of us now believe. And that many posts have been deleted because of their abusive nature.

I think that if the thread had started, I have written a book, and have published it, it being a treatise, in a science fiction vein of where I see the possibility of the world going, and here is some more of the plot... Much better reception would have been had. Then if the book was sold in traditional venues, with traditional reviewers, that too would have helped this attempt.

That, however has never been the case. One book from one publishing house, so a self published novel. Cyops a recent member to LT, (I am too, though I have put my entire library here, and continue to review and add ratings to my books) with no depth to his library, and the reviews of the amazonian's also lacking depth, has made any attempt for credibility to be counter indicated.

Then with daily new insights into how closely aligned Cyops is to the work, with the ability to post entire passages of a book that was a long read of over 800 pages, finished a few days ago, but entire pages posted within minutes, smacks of cutting and pasting.

Others have listed their clues as to why one feels that Cyops is the author, and that his posts are sales solicitations. But not calling them that, or by trying to argue vehemently that the posters here are attacking the work for no reason but that they are those who would not get it is trying to hide that the entire reason is to drum up sales for his work.

Then we are faced with do we like the forums for sales and marketing where the posters are here to put money in their pockets. An earlier post suggested that rating a book high and talking about is all about sales.

I would disagree. Recommending a book that you like and that you won't get any money for because you told the community you liked it is entirely different from shouting that you have just read the greatest thing, since man learned to use cuniform, when you also are going to get a heavy piece of every dollar that is spent.

Tomorrow, in the full light of day, we shall take our box, and leave our tunnel open, and walk through the streets to the Home of the Scholars. We shall put before them the greatest gift ever offered to men. We shall tell them the truth. We shall hand to them, as our confession, these pages we have written. We shall join our hands to theirs, and we shall work together, with the power of the sky, for the glory of mankind. Our blessing upon you, our brothers! Tomorrow, you will take us back into your fold and we shall be an outcast no longer. Tomorrow we shall be one of you again. Tomorrow . . .

"A Street Sweeper! A Street Sweeper walking in upon the World Council of Scholars! It is not to be believed! It is against all the rules and all the laws!"

But we knew how to stop them.

"Our brothers!" we said. "We matter not, nor our transgression. It is only our brother men who matter. Give no thought to us, for we are nothing, but listen to our words, for we bring you a gift such as had never been brought to men. Listen to us, for we hold the future of mankind in our hands."

Then they listened.

We placed our glass box upon the table before them. We spoke of it, and of our long quest, and of our tunnel, and of our escape from the Palace of Corrective Detention. Not a hand moved in that hall, as we spoke, nor an eye. Then we put the wires to the box, and they all bent forward and sat still, watching. And we stood still, our eyes upon the wire. And slowly, slowly as a flush of blood, a red flame trembled in the wire. Then the wire glowed.
"We give you the power of the sky!" we cried. "We give you the key to the earth! Take it, and let us be one of you, the humblest among you. Let us all work together, and harness this power, and make it ease the toil of men. Let us throw away our candles and our torches. Let us flood our cities with light. Let us bring a new light to men!"

But they looked upon us, and suddenly we were afraid. For their eyes were still, and small, and evil.

"Our brothers!" we cried. "Have you nothing to say to us?"

Then Collective 0-0009 moved forward. They moved to the table and the others followed.

"Yes," spoke Collective 0-0009, "we have much to say to you."

The sound of their voices brought silence to the hall and to beat of our heart.

"Yes," said Collective 0-0009, "we have much to say to a wretch who have broken all the laws and who boast of their infamy!

How dared you think that your mind held greater wisdom than the minds of your brothers? And if the Councils had decreed that you should be a Street Sweeper, how dared you think that you could be of greater use to men than in sweeping the streets?"

"How dared you, gutter cleaner," spoke Fraternity 9-3452, "to hold yourself as one alone and with the thoughts of the one and not of the many?"

"You shall be burned at the stake," said Democracy 4-6998.

"No, they shall be lashed," said Unanimity 7-3304, "till there is nothing left under the lashes."

"No," said Collective 0-0009, "we cannot decide upon this, our brothers. No such crime has ever been committed, and it is not for us to judge. Nor for any small Council. We shall deliver this creature to the World Council itself and let their will be done."

We looked upon them and we pleaded:

"Our brothers! You are right. Let the will of the Council be done upon our body. We do not care. But the light? What will you do with the light?"

Collective 0-0009 looked upon us, and they smiled.

"So you think that you have found a new power," said Collective 0-0009. "Do all your brothers think that?"

"No," we answered.

"What is not thought by all men cannot be true," said Collective 0-0009.

"You have worked on this alone?" asked International 1-5537.

"Many men in the Homes of the Scholars have had strange new ideas in the past," said Solidarity 8-1164, "but when the majority of their brother Scholars voted against them, they abandoned their ideas, as all men must."

"This box is useless," said Alliance 6-7349.

"Should it be what they claim of it," said Harmony 9-2642, "then it would bring ruin to the Department of Candles. The Candle is a great boon to mankind, as approved by all men. Therefore it cannot be destroyed by the whim of one."
Anthem, Ayn Rand

Shall Liberty or Empire be Sought?
Patrick Henry, 1788
Your Senate is so imperfectly constructed that your dearest rights may be sacrificed to what may be a small minority; and a very small minority may continue for ever unchangeably this government, altho horridly defective. Where are your checks in this government? Your strongholds will be in the hands of your enemies. It is on a supposition that your American governors shall be honest that all the good qualities of this government are founded; but its defective and imperfect construction puts it in their power to perpetrate the worst of mischiefs should they be bad men; and, sir, would not all the world, blame our distracted folly in resting our rights upon the contingency of our rulers being good or bad? Show me that age and country where the rights and liberties of the people were placed on the sole chance of their rulers being good men without a consequent loss of liberty! I say that the loss of that dearest privilege has ever followed, with absolute certainty, every such mad attempt.

“You have no memory of earlier times. It was a time of wonders, good lives, and prosperity for many, but it was also a hard time for many others. The freest of the political subdivisions of this planet had repudiated the very values which had made them possible. In the name of the god of the state, the people’s economic and political rights withered away generation by generation as politics became pressure group warfare, and the true private sector was sacrificed to the so called public. Many governments were no better than legitimized gangsters; we of course define government, which is not strictly voluntary as criminal enterprise, and there were no voluntarily based governments prior to the coming of Free Alaska. Most people’s economic well being began a slow slide; so gradual did it happen that it was virtually imperceptible.

“What was then called globalization was in practice a means of using people by categories. Where there were the more repressive or corrupt governments there was also poverty. Many many industrial concerns relocated to those areas from places with much higher standards of living in order to exploit inexpensive, almost medieval sources of labor. Such industrial concerns then lobbied governments to maintain people at these poverty levels, to prevent labor costs and laborer amenities from rising.

“This resulted in more availability of goods at lower prices, but it also undercut the employment of those in the freer countries who did most of the purchasing. In the age of ignorance cause and effect was not understood, mostly because governments that manipulated the bulk of all wealth were able to offset bad judgment by redistributing the wealth to pay for the consequences.

“Then there were the wars that were no longer exclusively the province of governments, but of cults, gangs, and organizations. Many were driven by so-called religious differences, but they were essentially little different than the others; they wanted political power. Not having the resources of a government, they used terrorism. These wars rarely settled anything, because there was no particular territory to take, and the organizational combatants could move from place. The terrorists were successful anyway. Although they paid lip service to the assumption of political control they were wise enough to know they would likely never get it, but it was okay because what they wanted was to be combatants for an ideology or religion.

“Of course it usually wasn’t the terrorists that paid the price for the discord they sowed; it was those of the countries that fought them that paid. They paid not only in the trillions devoted to the actual war efforts, but also in their own individual loss of freedom so that society as a whole could be safe. Travel, transferring money, moving from one location to another, personal and commercial communications, literary and journalistic content, and on and on were encumbered by government procedures to stop terrorism. This also caused a general rise in taxes and a substantial increase in police. All the effort rarely prevented terrorist activity, but it did burden society.“

Fe Fi FOE Comes

#336

On another thread I explained that it looked as if he was part of an astro-turfing campaign (at best) on another topic. I also suggested that the best way to be seen as a real person with real interests was to talk about other books.

cyops,

What is the point of you posting these long excerpts from the book? Do you think they are extremely fine examples of writing?

#346 - 347

I've done that on two other threads. On one I was chided for spamming because I said there were strong female leads in the book.

From #339 which will soon be turned off:

Ordinarily, I would have posted a few of my thoughts on the book and other books, as I have in other forums, and engaged briefly with anyone who was interested, and moved on. Some have said the book is not for them, not a theme they enjoy, something they wouldn't read, etc., that's to be expected, and such opinions I respect. I started the thread, I see no point in letting them take it over ... since no one has anything to say that has not been said over and over and over I will post from the book. People can draw their own conclusions, and/or post the same old criticisms.

Concerning a 'real person' I have said this over and over again, but still everyone makes the same comments:

I repeat myself: As to the author, I can't see how it could be more obvious that he wants his privacy ... for whatever reason, maybe there would be problems associated with any notoriety. I have to respect that.

You will note that in the other forums where it is said I have posted a review or comment about the book (and other books) the thread did not go on endlessly, there were no attacks from anyone to anyone else, and the comments were polite. No one was 'sold' a book ... no one here has been 'sold' a book. The attempt here, with questionable motives, is pretty much an all out attack. If the attack went away so would I. So I will respond to realistic questions and comments, and post excerpts from the book when there are unrealistic ones, and/or when I think of something appropriate to post. The options are the same ... no one is forced to read anything I post ... everyone has the opportunity to flag my posts ... many do.

I have said repeatedly that I like the book ... I think the story is very good. The writing is much better than some, not as good as others. I do not agree with the 'rubbish-masters' opinions ... that will not change. They are welcome to comment in any way they wish so that others can see their opinion, but I'm done addressing it in the thread.

#346

I've done that on two other threads. On one I was chided for spamming because I said there were strong female leads in the book.

That was the one I replied to with the suggestion. I meant purely about other books. When you talked about the Dune continuation books did people disagree or attack you? No, they did not.

The writing is much better than some

Really? Name these books which you think are written less well and articulate why?

Previously you also said ... much of the novel is almost poetic

I haven't seen any sign of this despite all your extracts. Can you post one reasonably short passage (or point to one you have already posted) which demonstrates this. Also try and explain why it works so well for you. I think it is fair to say that all the previous passages have left me (and it seems most respondents) non-plussed.

Just to note - there is now an option to get some reviews of this work through the new ER subsidury giveaways

I'm sure many people in this group would sign up to recieve a review copy.

Wow! Is there any reason the author couldn't have got a native English speaker - any native English speaker to review his work before publishing?

Cyops, rather than copy and paste the long extracts from Ayn Rand and Patrick Henry, you could have posted links. (Eg http://www.fullbooks.com/Anthem.html and http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Shall_Liberty_or_Empire_Be_Sought%3F ) Could you also tell us what point you are making with these extracts? That Ayn Rand's style is also bad, or what?

#352

Unfortunately I had to edit Anthem and Patrick Henry's material somewhat to post what I wanted. I'll be happy to use the url when the entire site/document is referenced as I did with http://www.samplesandassociates.com

The point of the extracts was first to show how human nature drifts to putting people in their place, to the extent that what a person is saying (proposing) is completely lost because they are not in the class of those who are supposed to say those things. Also to show the reticence of people to look outside the boundries of their (limited existence). Anthem.

Secondly to show that the problems of today were readily anticipated by a few thinkers who understood the value of individual freedom, and the tendency of power to corrupt, and destroy that freedom. Henry.

There is nothing wrong with Ayn Rand's style ... or Patrick Henry's either. You may take issue with the message ... most people do. The Constitution was ratified despite Henry's warnings ... we are still using the contemporary version of 'candles' rather than a possible energy source that is vastly superior.

The message and the style, or writing if you will, are two different things. Quality and popularity are also two different things. Because Britany Spears sells much better than Bach does not mean her music is better ... it is a reflection of the orientation of those doing the buying. The same is true of books, movies, or whatever is on the market. And it is true of the culture of given societies.

On point:

“We all come into the world as it is. Almost everything we learn is for the purpose of dealing with the world as it is. We accept the values and standards of the society we are born into.

“Some never get beyond this acceptance, but a rare few want to know ‘how’ things came to be the way they are, even fewer want to know ‘why’ things are the way they are … and the rarest of all are those who realistically ask ‘how should things be’.

Unfortunately there are no ready made answers; mostly it takes a lifetime to understand ‘why’. As to how things should be … most everyone has an opinion about that; an opinion based on ignorance.
FFFC

In that sense books, movies, houses, cars, etc, all appeal to that which we have all been taught to think of as 'good'. Things which fall outside those boundries may be merely unpopular, or they may engender hostility. It is much easier for the non-intellectual to point to presumed 'flaws' in the packaging, than to determine why it is that they feel the hostility in the first place.

#350

I would be very surprised that anyone in this thread would read Fe Fi FOE Comes even if it were given away. My guess is the publisher did just that with SFWA CBP, maybe they sent advanced copies to other sources. The last copy sold on Ebay went for like $19, so it would surprise me if the publisher would give away copies here to people that have already said how much they hate the book.

Nevertheless I think the giveaway plan is a good idea for new books that need reviews.

348: To be worried about notiriety, the author would have to have sold more than four copies of his book. Every post you write makes it more clear that you are the author attempting conceal your identity.

And, your response to negative criticism of the book is not to respond to the criticism, or explain what insights you think it has, or why the language is poetic, but to post more excerpts of its heavy, turgid prose. You only respond to non-criticism with argument - that's the marking of a thin-skinned author if I ever saw it.

I am also curious as to why pointing out that the writing displayed in the excerpts is atrocious is an "unrealistic" comment. Eragon was written by a teenager, and its prose is better than the lousy writing in Fe Fi Foe Comes. It contained more interesting and insightful thoughts too, and that's saying a lot, since Eragon is a piece of fluff.

I think I have divined Cyops dastardly plan. Eventually he will have excerpted the entire book on this thread, tricking the participants into reading it. We will, thereby, bleed out through our eyeballs leaving the world to people with guns in Alaska who will elect Sarah Palin President.

Please do not post such horror as Sarah Palin becoming President. This is abusive and will be flagged next time. You have indeed discovered my plan ... only 860 pages to go. I print each posted page as the comments change, so you are all characters in the sequel. This will be an instant bestseller with all the wonderfully intelligent critiques of the book. Everyone here will buy a copy to feed their vanity. I'm collecting member pictures now for the cover. Please don't tell anyone else about this plan!!

"... leaving the world to people with guns in Alaska who will elect Sarah Palin President" and she will declare Alaska independent, whereupon the USA will relapse into insignificance ...

This is your friendly reminder to keep it civil folks--all of you. Heated discussion is fine, encouraged even! But no personal attacks. Keep it about the book, not about each other...

Abby

#358

Actually that's pretty close jimroberts. Except that the female governor that declares Alaska independent, and becomes president of the new country of Alaska does so as a puppet of the USA so that Alaska can do things that the USA cannot do because of the backlash from other nations.

Here's news I found interesting:

LOS ANGELES, Calif. -- Stephen King's opinion may drive a stake through the heart of "Twilight" author, Stephenie Meyer.

In an interview with USA Weekend, the bestselling author compared Meyer with J.K. Rowling , the author of the Harry Potter series.

According to Stephen, "Both Rowling and Meyer, they're speaking directly to young people... The real difference is that Jo Rowling is a terrific writer and Stephenie Meyer can't write worth a darn. She's not very good."

I guess all the 'Twilight' fans will now toss away their copies of Meyer's books.

I guess all the Twilight fans will now toss away their copies of Meyer's books.

If only...

The Twilight series is done by a major publisher and has reviews from many major sources. How could it possibly be 'badly written'. Please!

363 - The Twilight series is done by a major publisher and has reviews from many major sources. How could it possibly be 'badly written'. Please!

See, but you are drawing a false analogy. Nobody is saying Fe Fi FOE Comes is badly written because it is a self published job. From what I've seen, the general consensus is that the excerpts posted just show that the book is badly written. The fact that it is self-published and without the benefit of editorial oversight explains the mistakes in the minutia of restaurants in Los Angeles.

364 > the mistake most of you are doing is expecting to have a reasonable logical argument with someone who believes that 1 + 1 ≠ 2 for all cases. Think about it. Most of his arguments are straw men and red herrings. Good luck.

#364

Sigh ... there are no such mistakes in the minutia of restaurants in Los Angeles.

The point missed (always) is that the Twilight series is a popular series enjoyed by many people ... I am not one of those people ... King makes the statement that 'Rowling is a terrific writer and Meyer can't write worth a darn' which obviously is not something Meyer's fans would agree with, and they are NOT going to toss their books in the trash because King ... who usually writes very well but very tediously ... says it is badly written. King ... who has at least some experience to draw on ... has an opinion which is worthless to a number of people.

#365

But it is reasonable and logical to believe that 1 + 1 always = 2? Ask scientists who deal with quantum physics - GR & STR if they believe that. In theory v + v does NOT always equal 2v once you get beyond Newtonian physics. That's why they have Transformation Equations for high velocities.

I think we're confusing ordinal and cardinals here. Go Steelers.

We have the pope on another thread, and now cardinals on this one... Is there no getting away from religion?

At least with religion we're not getting flagged to death. Not yet anyway.

flogging is next

Self flagellation is next. It has it all. It has Flag in it, it is religious, and it is like flogging...

This being a social website surely we should flagellate each other surely. Or is that what we already been doing.

#371

Sounds like the Da Vinci code then - it had self-flagellation in it, too.

I read that, and wrote a review of it for LT. Now Angels and Demons, anyone read that? Since there is a movie coming out, I wonder if it will be good?

I know Tom Hanks and Opie (Ron Howard) are friends, and Hanks lobbied for the role, but watching the film of Da Vinci, he seemed miscast. As did Tautou and McKellan, though Reno, Bettany and Molina I thought were great. Bettany really does do flagellation well.

#372 It is

#373 And hopeless errors ... but a mainstream success.

#374 Angels and Demons references to CERN and his 'anti-matter' bomb are ridiculous ... but also a bestseller. And Tom Hanks is not a muskrat.

Did you read Angels and Demons, is that a review? I am interested if it improves on Da Vinci...

And have no idea what you mean by Tom Hanks as a Muskrat.

I read Angels and Demons. It is another of Brown's use of chasing around various locations to find secret information to unhinge an evil plot. In this case it is connected with the selection of the new Pope ... alludes to one of the candidates being the 'son' of the old Pope. The Illuminati are the principle bad guys, there is of course a twinky, the daughter of a murdered CERN scientist, but as in the D.Code there is no romance; Langdon and her simply chase around Rome together hunting for those involved with the plot. The would-be new Pope has planted an 'anti-matter' bomb, has via the Illuminati managed to kill off most of the other contenders ... until Langdon, by way of 'decoding' all the (historically oriented) clues finds the general location of the bomb and saves the day ...with the help of divine guidance (it seems) to one of the other characters.

As in D.Code which actually came after A&D, Brown alludes to much of the novel being currently and historically factual ... which it is not, and D.Code is not. He describes an 'X-33' spaceplane, which CERN owns; nobody owns such a plane and it would not work as described. He alludes to an 'anti-matter' bomb made from anti-matter stolen from CERN ... there is no such way to make or store such stuff as he describes ... it would be infinently easier to make a conventional bomb, which would do as much damage. His locations in Rome are not accurate. He alludes to 'historical' material which is not accurate. The same as in the D.Code where he makes silly statements such as the Knights Templers being killed by Pope Clement V and their ashes thrown into the Tiber (in Rome) when actually they were killed by King Phillip IV of France and Clement was in Avignon.

All this would be simply silly, except that Brown insists it is historically accurate, and implies that it accurate with respect to contemporary issues. CERN did not invent the internet, as he claims, they did 'implement' the use of http.

Nevertheless the novels are endlessly promoted, many people love them, and many insist that Brown's version of history and secret organizations is the 'real' truth, and that anything to discredit his claims is part of the conspiracy.

I didn't have my glasses on this morning ... I thought your post said Tom Hanks 'seemed to be a muskrat'.

I almost forgot - 859

It was known from the mid twentieth century on that most medical services could be easily accomplished by individuals, without the need of a doctor. As diagnostic equipment became more sophisticated, and preventive medicine followed suit, it was easy enough for someone to have say a blood test run, the results compared to norms, and undertake treatment if needed.

When the government lock on health care that regulated practitioners, medicine, testing, fee schedules, and sustained the monopoly was removed there was no longer any justification for most compounds that had been subject to prescription to cost any more than other medicines that were available off the shelf. When it was no longer required to have a physician order a test, and the tests were available to everyone, the costs plummeted. Health care became subject to the market rules of supply and demand, and it became affordable.

This was not to say physicians, surgeons, nurses anesthesiologists, specialists, technicians, and of course researchers were no longer needed, but rather they were needed for the work only such trained professionals could do … routine maintenance, and treatment for the common maladies of life could be programmed.

#378
Is that another bit of FFFC? It seems better written than the others.

#379 It is from FFFC yes. It's a long book.

858 to go

He had nodded off in the saddle again; the journey had been long and without a stop for rest for the last two suns. He shook his head and nudged his mount on faster to break the sleepy rhythm. More of the strange dreams he thought … strange times and stranger people. Perhaps he was bewitched he thought, he looked about at the green meadows alongside the dusty road he traveled, the dark forest beyond, a rocky crag in the distance reached into the sky. Many places for witches to hide; demons to work their magic. He held himself above such superstitions, but still wished for a charm or an amulet to ward off the dreams.

Ahead he could see a row of trees going off in each direction away from where the road intersected them. A river perhaps, a place to stop and rest a while. Night was close at hand. When he came closer he saw the out buildings, the cultivated fields; the road entered a village, or more, just up ahead. This was no comfort to him, he wore no Lord’s crest, had no coat-of-arms. He was a freeborn warrior; he chose his own alliances; many would call him outlaw. No one would fight for him.

He reined in his horse just short of the river. There was a drawbridge, down now, held by wooden towers on each side. Palisades continued from each tower, surely to encompass the town. This river crossing was something worth fighting for … someone had built the bridge, erected the pickets. Thralls were coming and going across the bridge, carrying baskets, goods on poles. They did not look at him, they kept their heads down, their eyes away.

Two humble creatures in rusty maile and badly crafted helmets came out from the towers; they each had pikes, and a rough-hewn iron sword at their waist. There was nothing here for him, they told him. Ride away, they gestured menacingly with their homemade spears, this startled his horse … the stallion reared up, then the forefeet returned to the ground, he snorted and pawed the earth.

Paul did not speak, but instead rode forward; he placed his hand on the hilt of his sword. When his horse gained the bridge the men gave way. Running back to their towers they pelted him with idle threats. He rode on into the town.

From FFFC - VALKYRJA

Rusty maile?

http://www.chainmailearmor.com/
http://www.geocities.com/pomanspaintball/ChainMaileArmor.html
http://hawkwood.5u.com/Maile.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_(armour)

The word chainmail is a pleonasm and a neologism: in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, "mail", "mayle" or chain was the English name for it, while maille was the common French name for it. This—and the alternative spellings "maile" and "maille"—derive through the Italian maglia, from the Latin macula, meaning "mesh of a net".

Cyops,

Why don't you take #377, remove some of the spoilerish elements (some details in the first paragraph) and some of the griping at the end (I'm thinking of Nevertheless the novels are endlessly promoted, many people love them bits) and knock out a review for Angels and Demons? I thought the post was pretty good.

#384

Okay ... I'll give it a try. I'm usually not so good with reviews ... maybe because of the griping.

Griping in a review is OK! Example

Yeah, I don't intend to read Angels and Demons now. But I'll see the movie when it is on cable for free. Maybe Hanks will have improved in the character by then.

#387

I was disappointed with Angels and Demons, first because I read it after I read D.Code. I got sucked into the 'history' of D.Code, and then because of my work I began to research what he was saying, and found it to be almost completely false. I think Brown was sued by authors of a couple of books that he 'used' material from, but it was settled. Anyway fiction is fiction and it's okay to mess around with reality a bit, but then to claim it is 'true' I think goes beyond fair-play. Still I tried A&D, and when I got to the CERN parts and the 'X-33' it started to become laughable. I spent the rest of the reading questioning every claim Brown made. The plot of both novels is similar, and 'okay' I guess ... almost everything happens in like 24 hours or so, which makes it sort of an 'edge-of-your-seat' read. I can see why it's popular. Especially if you want to believe in such conspiracies.

I certainly don't get the deal with having these lovely twinkies in the books/movies, and Langdon never even flirts with them ... what's with Brown anyway?

I agree with you that Tom Hanks was miscast ... he's nothing like the Langdon I picture. I'm guessing the A&D movie will have good box-office though ... probably Hanks will do it too. Maybe a muskrat would be better!

# 386

I guess griping somewhat is okay ... I get so pissed off at S.King from time to time I'd like to really take him to task. And he's written one of my favorite books! Needful Things. Him badmouthing Meyer is too much. Her books don't appeal to me, but lots of people love them ... leave them to their choice I say ... I never got into Harry Potter either, dispite Rowlings being labeled as a great writer. Same with Tolkien ... the writing is super, but I could just never identify with being a hobbit. He also borrowed from some very old sagas ... as did Chrichton with his Eaters of the Dead. Heinlein used to say all writers borrowed from other writers, filed off the serial numbers, re-wrote it a bit, and used it in their own work ... true enough.

857 to go:

He turned then and located his fallen Couriers; they were inside the perimeter, sitting on top of the warren’s roof. He could see the Imperials were out of the ships … taking and returning fire from one of the nearby hatches. He spun around the point over the ships and lasered the doorway until there was a large opening, the sides smoking and burning from the light weapon’s discharges … but no more incoming fire for the Imperials on the ground.

He ordered two of the Couriers to remain in the air, and the others to ground with him next to those already on the ground. He looked at the floor plan of the warren Intel had provided; this was not exactly the best entrance, but it would have to do. He grounded Glenda, then he and the camera man jumped from the ship; soon after Glenda was off into the sky again, to circle the area.

Thirty two Imperials, Vavan, and three reporters, moved at once towards the entrance to the underground spaces. The stairs had been destroyed; they used their jump boots to gain the floor some twelve feet below, then together they caught the cameramen as they jumped. They found themselves inside a long slightly curving corridor, a rock wall to their left, and a half wall to their right, above which stretched chain link fencing to the ceiling. The stench was awful! Unwashed bodies, raw sewage, rotting flesh, it was almost unbearable!

They wasted no time, they moved out at double time. At even spaced intervals there were hallways going into the interior, away from the wall. These halls served living and working areas for the guards. They ran through them quickly, finding a guard or a few guards here and there. They killed them almost without slowing down. After running maybe a mile or more, Vavan and six of the Imperials turned down another hallway; it continued much further into the center of the warren than the others had. Then it broke out into an area maybe a hundred feet in diameter … it was filled with guards … fifty or sixty of them.

They were surprised when the Imperials ran in, and they all crashed together. It was dangerous work as Vavan and those with him were left mostly to their swords … the guards had guns. After getting over their surprise and seeing how few the Imperials were, they began shooting. Vavan was hit several times by small arms. Despite the value of his armor the impacts were significant, and one or two he felt tugging at the flesh of his arm, then his face, which was bare since he sacrificed his helmet for the advantage of being seen clearly by the cameras.

There was nothing left to do, retreat would have been certain death … they waded into the guards and killed them to the right and left, pushing the center back as they went. The guards up front panicked, turned to run, and crashed into their fellows. Vavan and his soldiers were on them in an instant. By that time the other Imperials had joined them, and they made short work of the guards that remained … several ran out the door on the other side of the room. More than forty guards lay dead or dying on the floor.

Vavan and those with him that had been hit took a moment to slap on plasters, grind a painkiller or two with their teeth, and then they were back the way they had come, and running once again down the hall. Perhaps another mile, they had cleared several more of the alcoves and workspaces, then they came to the place Vavan was looking for … the central processing area. From here was access to the outside, and to the various cages down deeper into the warren where the inmates were held.

FFFC - IDAVOLD

You do know that if you type the whole book on the internet you could be subject to copyright infringement?

Are all these excerpts out of FFC? because (unless you've admitted being the author and I missed it) you might be pushing the 'fair use' by reproducing all these passages verbatim out of the book. Just thought I should warn you. Besides which I'm not sure what the point is in this reproduction, no explanation just large random blocks of text.

391 > beat me by a couple minutes!

#391

Well of course I'm not going to do that ... the page count is a tease back when someone said I was going to print the whole book out here. Also there are no spoilers in what I'm quoting. I'm just inserting a few pages from chapters that I personally like ... yes I know I'm all alone on this beach, but as I said the thread I started is about the book. I don't do very well explaining it, so I just print a few paragraphs now and then. The OP that was quashed was mostly what someone on another blog said about the book, and I thought it was better than what I could say ... I guess I should have at least attributed it to her, that was my fault.

Most of the bashing on all sides has stopped ... I hope it stays that way. I know reading these excerpts is hard to endure for many here, but it's not permanent damage to anyone's psyche ... I hope.

I have to travel to Belgium next week and Italy the following week ... so everyone will get a break from my posts.

I thought I saw that we could have a lot of good chuckles over this....

#392

Except where I quoted Ayn Rand and Patrick Henry yes they are FFFC excerpts. See my response to #391. Besides the Ebay ads contain excerpts (none are running now that I see) and I would guess Vel North, who has first pub rights doesn't have a problem with it. I've been down the 'author' path many times ... for whatever reason he has not shown up by name in any forum I've seen other than on his (I assume his) bridge/transit system web site for Samples & Associates.

# 394

Why not?

I have to go work out ... I don't want to get 'buttsadraggin'.

#386 (and others) - Griping in a review is OK!

Sorry, yes. Maybe I was unclear. If a book sucks the whole review might be griping. Try reading my review for the crappy Hellgate: London book I read. Sometimes reviews full of gripes are the best or most fun.

What I meant was... how to say this in a way that is politic... it wouldn't do to point out that the piece-a-junk book under review was successful due to large amounts of promotion, while other, self-published and possibly highly controversial novels get no public attention. I was starting to get a whiff of that towards the end of 377.

Otherwise, the points made in 377 and 388 seemed pretty good. I haven't read any of Dan Brown's books myself, but Cyops posts are helping me to decide that I don't need to be in any rush to do so. (Though I'll prolly see the Angels and Demons movie.)

Oh, the book that Dan Brown swiped from was Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Not having read either book, but having had endless History Channel documentaries crammed down my throat during The DiVinci Code hype, it does look like he plagarized the book. Not a single documentary could air without having to reference that book multiple times. I wasn't surprised a few months later to hear about the lawsuit. However, that book popped back up on the bestseller lists, so it seems the authors don't have a lot to complain about (and the one author the History Channel kept interviewing with the cigarettes, sunglasses, long black hair and leather jacket seemed like a first-class weirdo).

actually he didn't plagiarize that book, those authors sold it as a work of nonfiction claiming it was the truth. However they started the lawsuit for the publicity to help the sales of their failing book and it worked dramatically.

#389 - Watch what you say about Stephen King mister! he's one of my faves. Don't make me have to start flagging your messages! (That is how we're solving things we don't like to read now, right?)

Brown stole heavily from The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail but in order to win the plagiarism suit its authors would have had to admit it was fictional. So a judge found against them.

For all that, The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail was debunked back in the late 1980s.

#400

LOL ... hey Stevie King is one of MY favorites too ... but he still manages to piss me off from time to time. Some of his books are tedious to say the least. I'm quite sure he will not lay awake nights brooding over my assessements.

In a review, you might want to cover such things as plot, prose, ability to sell you. Angels and Demons being a mystery, did have enough red herrings, was it too straightforward, could you see the end coming at you from chapter one.

Was the prose, a subject well discussed here in this thread, able to elevate the writing, or did the author beat you over the head telling you instead of showing you.

Your overall impressions, or perhaps something totally glaring that took you out of the story, perhaps it being in Rome, I have heard that we can't tour the coliseum any longer, and maybe Landgon gets too... Or the Trevi Fountains have run dry or something that you know is factually wrong, like The Mona Lisa is a Man, and just stops you cold.

Okay here's one for you DWWilkin .... restaurants:

There's a well known restaurant high up in the hills above Burbank ... wonderful view of the city below and the valley beyond. They have a super Saturday and Sunday brunch ... with all the champagne you can drink. They do lots of weddings ... but I've never had that problem, and it's a wonderful place to go in the evening. Nice bar .. nice patio with a firepit. Great food ... but spendy. It's been there since like 1960 - 1970.

Guess which one.

#398 - 399 - 401

Yes that was the 'plagerism' deal. I didn't realize it had been thrown out because it was claimed by the other authors to be the truth ... interesting legal position since Brown claims HIS work is true history ... I wonder if that means someone can borrow from him with impunity?

That would be justice!

405: Brown doesn't claim the story in his book is true history, but asserts that the historical elements of the book are true. Insofar as they are in line with the purported history of The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail that's correct, but since that book is completely ahistorical, the alleged historical elements in Brown's book are as well.

# 403

You can still tour the colliseum (sp) but I think you have to be with a 'tour' ... same for like Linderhof in Bavaria. Actually there is an excellent colosseum in Verona that you can tour, and not have the zillion of tourists.

Brown writes pretty well ... it's just that he uses 'literary license' to make things up to fit the story. Most of his glaring mistakes could have been prevented if he'd made an effort to check the accuracy.

This thread has been SOooo entertaining, but I am still amazed every day anew to see this f-ing thing grow as it does. Jebus, I may have to quit my job so I can stay by my PC and keep up!

#401 Not that I ever believed (or frankly, even cared) whether the Holy Blood, Holy Grail story was true (um, I think the ultimate conclusion was not just that Jesus screwed Mary Magdalene and had a buncha kidz, but that some royal Scots were his descendants and that Jesus was a Fish-Man because Mother Mary screwed an alien Fish-Man - or something. Any way you slice it, their tale was a lot more entertaining than plagiarist Dan Brown's), but I am curious what you are referencing when you say it was "debunked".

My favorite bits were the Priory of Sion bits, so I am sure that's where the debunking starts.

408: "My favorite bits were the Priory of Sion bits, so I am sure that's where the debunking starts."

Pretty much. The Priory of Sion, if it ever actually existed, bears no resemblance to what was in The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail. The evidence even for the existence a Priory of Sion is pretty slim as well. The book also loses lots of credibility to basing part of its claims on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which were an out and out forgery, although they claim the forgery was to change the document from one exposing the Priory to an antisemitic rant.

A fairly complete list of criticisms of the book can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_holy_blood_and_the_holy_grail. With a little digging, I'm sure you could find many more. Basically, the book is rife with misstataments, unsupported assertions, and unwarranted leaps of logic.

#406

I'm not sure I follow ... do you think that would mean citing (copying) something purported to be historical from Brown would or would not be actionable as plagerism?

410: I'm saying that the story in The Davinci Code is fiction, and Brown doesn't contest that. He has asserted that the details concerning the Priory of Sion, the secret rituals and other "historical" elements are true.

This claim, if he has maintained it in the face of the various debunkings that have been made of them, would make it very difficult for him to bring an infringment suit against someone who featured a Priory of Sion with identical characterisitcs to the one in The Davinci Code in another book.

On the other hand, if you wrote a story featuring Langdon, a mystery solving librarian, you'd probably be infringing.

#409

There actually is an organization called the Priory of Scion ... after the D.Code they published an article about the organization and pointed out the 'mistakes' Brown had made ... specifically they denied sending assassins out to kill people that believed M. Magdalane was Jesus's wife ... etc. Actually those 'tales' have been around for centuries.

For a number of people the 'debunking' is just proof of the conspiracy to suppress the ideas Brown states in D.Code.

412: The Priory of Sion as an ancient organization has been thoroughly debunked. Pierre Plantard's son has come out saying his father made the whole history of the Priory up, and various letters have been produced confirming this. The debunking was started long before either The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail or the Davinci Code were written.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion

#411

Fair enough ... I don't think Brown has to worry about infringement anyway. I think he could write pretty much any 'conspiracy' based novel and it would sell. I'm waiting for the one on the Council of Foreign Relations.

#412

I was speaking of the Priory of Sion organization as it exists today ... I don't think they make any claims to being ancient, it was organized by Plantard in 1956. Maybe I have them confused with another organization ... who was the albino monk associated with?

412: Plantard invented an entire history of the Priory dating back to the crusades, and his writings are the source of much of the silly pseudohistory that makes up The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail. Plantard's claims have been shown to be pure invention created to attempt to gain political advantage.

The albino monk was a member of Opus Dei, an actual organization, but one that is much less sinister than portrayed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_dei

Wait a minute! You guys are trying to trick me with all this D.Brown stuff so that you don't have to see anymore posts from FFFC! Well you won't get away with it! Here's some 'truth' from the novel:

It was the Internet that began the undoing of orthodoxy. Even before the political revolution would change the system of state sponsored and controlled science the Internet opened communications world wide and challenges that could not be aborted surfaced. The orthodoxy lost the ability to completely control the publication of ideas, and relegate all disbelievers to crackpot status. The challenges were not limited to mathematical dissertations; theories were subjected to metaphysical analysis of the consequences of the theories.

Consequences of theories such that something arises from nothing, that time moves slower on one planet than the other and time moves slower on the other planet than the former, what clocks do time must do, velocity causes mass to increase, length to decrease, time to run slower, and other equally counterintuitive occurrences were searched for in the real world, and no examples were found. There were still the adherents to the metaphysics that relegated such examples to the transcendental. In other words, they would say, it was true enough that examples exclusive to the theories could not be found in any reality that was observed, but in ‘higher’ realities, beyond experience, but readily calculated mathematically, consequences had actual existence.

Just because no experiment had ever demonstrated something coming from nothing, a physical quantum measurement of time, or the curvature of space, did not mean such things might not be real. Confidence in the mathematics provided certainty. Mostly the nature of reality was not considered, what the math described was how things had to be; inquiries into whether things could really be that way were considered meaningless. This was the orthodox view.

Within the Internet there were no authoritative umpires or referees to convey status on ideas, and no way to maintain the monopoly to assert what theories were taken to be fact. There was no universal ‘good’ in undermining the orthodoxy though; when everyone and anyone could express their beliefs, and convince others, not only did mainstream scientific theories begin to lose their ability to be undisputed, alternatives to science such as astrology, creationism, a myriad forms of mysticism captured their share of believers as well, and there was no authoritative means of denying them either.

This was not to say that any given theory could not be used for its predictability value; this was a separate issue. As Ptolemy’s Earth centered universe theory was wholly adequate in its time, and even today, to predict the movement of the stars and planets, while its premises were completely false, so too would any theory that provided adequate predictability be used as needed. But a distinction began to be drawn between the mathematical model and reality; at least a distinction was envisioned outside the remaining ivory towers of orthodoxy.

So there!

#416

Yes you're right ... it was Opus Dei that published the information denying Brown's allusions to their 'evil' program. I had confused that with the Priori of Sion.

409

Thanks - another case of lazy memory and lack of research on my part. I kinda remembered "the Priory of Sion" from the book as being this group of bohemian intellectuals who cooked up a secret society to basically cover-up their belief that Christianity was essentially Goddess worship. Sounds like I was pretty far off in my rememberin'!

Good thing they were debunked too, coz my wife's Jewish and if the Protocls of the Elders of Zion was true, I was gonna have to deal with a lot of messy divorce paperwork, not to mention who the hell gets the dog! Phew!

#419

It could be worse. Your wife could be German ... then all you'd have to worry about is funeral arrangements!

I posted my picture on my profile and nobody even noticed! That cost me a lot of $ at Olin Mills and nobody even comments on it! I'm going to bed ... I can't take this anymore!

Damn, Cyops figured out the misdirection and smoke and mirrors strategy. Soon he'll be onto the conspiracy we have of dragging out this thread until it overwhelms all the servers in the world....

Is that the Castaway Restaurant you want me to think of Cyops? Been up there for Bar Mitzvahs... There is another similar restaurant on the other side of the valley where the 405 and 5 come together overlooking Northridge, but the Sportsmens Lodge, which is now closing for a refurb, is the best in the Valley... (Until we add in all the new high end hotels that have been built in the last 20/30 years...) After the war my grandfather owned a chicken ranch in the San Fernando valley...

#397: jseger9000
Re your review of Hellgate :London, I put it to you that there is no such word as "its'".

#375

The Da Vinci Code becomes more awful the more I think about it. I remember giving it two stars after reading it, but I know I am far too generous for rubbish books. In regards to "fighting a world-wide conspiracy", Dan Brown doesn't even have anything on Robert Ludlum, and I could hear more profound religious ideas from the Salvation Army when they do door-knocking.

Your book could never be worse than that.

#423 - I put it to you that there is no such word as "its'".

I accept that. I was thinking that 'it' was the possessive for 'place' but knew that 'it's' would be incorrect. I also screw up the I-before-E thing all the time. You'd be shocked, shocked how often I rely on the Firefox spell checker.

#421 - Cyops,

I noticed your photo earlier today. Out of curiousity, which one is you? I'm guessing the guy standing on the roof on the extreme right of the picture.

#422

Right on DWWilkin ... Castaway ... was a great place to go for a nice evening with a friend ... then for the buffet the next morning. I didn't know if it was still open. I don't know where you'd put a chicken ranch in the SF valley now, but the land must have been worth a fortune.

#426

No that's a friend of mine that lives next door. I'm the guy swinging on the rope. The girl has 'swooned', which is what usuually happens to my dates. You'll have to speak up ... it was the bells what made me deaf!

#424

Don't you think the current stock of Ludlum based movies have pretty much eliminated anyone reading the novels?

I remember the Ludlums before he died and they became written by whoever is writing them after. I liked them. I vaguely remember a character named Trevayne or Trevanion, and the evil Carlos...

The chicken ranch was sold before the 60's so didn't make as much money as whoever had the land after... Do know that my dad could not stomach chicken for years and years... They seemed to have had the ranch surrounding the Korean War era, out in the now Warner Ranch part of the Valley.

Yes I liked his books also. Ludlum, like Ian Fleming, has been turned into satire in the movies.

Of course you were like in your mid-twenties when I was living in Canyon Country. There were many 'ranches' out there that were used for movie sets - Disney still has one there I think (Buena Vista). There were tons of grips and other movie people living there. Shortly after they put in Magic Mountain they stopped using the train that ran nearby ... that was also a set. They had old west steam engines - 50's era steam locomotives - and modern trains. When it wasn't used as a set they let people ride it - and pay of course. Near the terminal(s), there was a variety of terminal fronts, was a nice restaurant called the 'Blue' something. I knew the owner ... he also owned some of the steakhouses along old 101, one near Malibu I think, can't rember the name. Anyway last time I was there the restaurant, and it looked like the train and tracks had all gone away ... Canyon Country was pretty much a maze of apartments.

I was dating a girl that was going to CalArts at the time ... you could go see tons of plays there pretty much for free then.

Like in your grandfather's time, not as cheap, but you could still buy land out there ... now I'm guessing it's a fortune.

Funny how much everything changes before you even know it!

#425: jseger9000 "You'd be shocked, shocked how often I rely on the Firefox spell checker."

No, I wouldn't. I need it a lot myself. But there are things it can't pick up.

#432 - No, I wouldn't. I need it a lot myself. But there are things it can't pick up.

Its' true!

Oh, now I'm just amusing myself.

Well don't go away. I've been up all night thinking about this Dan Brown thing ... the guy is dumped on by about everyone for his mistakes, yet he laughs all the way to the bank, has millions, and if he wrote a menu for McDonalds it would be a bestseller.

I think it's time we make our millions, and I think I know just how to do it. I just need to think on it a little while longer, then I'll post it.

"I think I know just how to do it."

Write a book, provocatively titled "Make your first Million Easily" or so, persuade everybody on LT to order it, then when you deliver, it says "Do as I did."?

#434 - ...and if he wrote a menu for McDonalds it would be a bestseller.

I don't think so. I think The DaVinci Code was a fluke of timing. Don't forget, that was the guys fourth book. No one read the others (including the very similar Angels and Demons) until that book hit so big. He hasn't published anything since, and how long ago was The Hiram Key (or was it Solomon's Key?) announced?

I'm wondering if the publisher is aware that they have a one hit wonder on their hands. I think his 'Key' book will sell less well than DaVinci and his next book after that will sell less. Of course I could be completely wrong.

I suspect Jseger is correct.

With all the debunking that occured, those who thought it was true soon learned that Da Vinci was not and so they ended up having to rethink Dan Brown as someone to spend time with.

At least I can hope that is the conclusion they came too.

#429

I must admit that I actually like Robert Ludlum, own almost all of his original novels, and about fifteen of these in hardcover. Yes, he recycles the conspiracy to take over the world plot for nearly every single novel, but he does it well.

To repeat Dan Brown's success, write a novel based upon one idea that might be faintly challenging to Christians and Christian theology (eg. Jesus having a child from Mary Madgeline), and the resulting media attention will be worth more than any marketing campaign a publisher would be willing to fund.

I think that most people brought the book just to see what everyone was up in arms about.

#429 I agree ... still Brown continues to sell and sell.

We need to capitalize on that. Several have pointed the way in this thread. First someone writes a book ... it doesn't have to be a good book, but should have a 'conspiracy' orientation. Then we all form a publishing company and have the book printed by some obscure press somewhere. We put the book up for sale in the usual locations, like Amazon. Then we all multiply our user names say a 100 times, and rave about the book on every forum and blog everywhere. We buy all the copies from say Amazon, but since we own the publishing company no books ever get shipped to us! The publishing company refunds all of our payments. Soon thousands and thousands of books are sold, and millions of people know about it. Like sheep millions of people will follow our lead and begin buying the book ... that revenue we share! We'll have a bestseller, written by a writer who say has to hide because of what he's revealing in the book, so no one ever sees him. Now we've made our millions ... and start putting out sequels of all the other conspiracies the writer has discovered!

Okay ... so who wants to write the book?

#435

I saw a good one many years ago - pre-internet. Guy put an ad in several newspapers that said 'Last Day to Send Your Dollar' and gave an address. Later the newspapers printed a retraction saying it was a scam and had raked in large sums.

My uncle years ago bought a bug-killer from one of the Popular Mechanics or somesuch ads. It was guaranteed never to wear out, kill any bug ... etc. When it arrived it was two pieces of 2x4 marked 'A' & 'B' ... the directions said "Place bug on 'A' and strike sharply with 'B'. It worked perfectly ... just as advertised.

I see FFFC is back on Ebay US. This was added:

“Why would you say modern government just prior to the coming of the Imperials should be included?” Jack asked. “Slavery was not an attribute of those societies. They were democracies. Slavery was left behind, like in parts of the old United States where people were held as slaves. Even there it was stopped long ago.”

“What exactly was the revenue base for the democracies Mr. Dawson?” Claire asked.

“Well it was taxes levied on the members. Taxes levied by laws enacted by the democratically elected representatives of the people.”

“And should the people not pay these democratically levied taxes?” She asked.

“Judgments followed, and people’s property was confiscated to pay them,” Toni answered.

“But that was the nature of a democracy Toni,” Jack turned to her. “That was how the state raised the money for public services”.

“Yes,” Claire responded, “curious isn’t it? If those services were so valuable to the people, why was it necessary to force the people to pay for them? Why wouldn’t they have voluntarily done so?” Jack began to speak, but she spoke first. “No don’t answer … the point is all so-called private property, and all individual labor was universally encumbered by government lien. Everyone came into the world indebted to the government, and a substantial amount of everyone’s time was required to pay his or her debt to the state. In some jurisdictions it was a much as eighty percent of their income … maybe even more. Where’s the essential difference between a person held on a plantation and required to work for the master every day, and a member of the democracy who was forced to work much of his time for the state? Even the slaves of the American South had lives beyond their workdays, such as they were. I’ll even answer the question for you; those who worked to pay off the state did so because their educational programs and their media told them from the cradle to the grave that they were supposed to, their government insured they would pay, either by force or the threat of force … they took their slavery for granted. They were essentially no better than any other slaves; maybe they were pampered more, but that’s not a fundamental difference, many slaveholders have pampered their slaves.”

FFFC - ODIN & FRIGGA

Definition of Democracy:

Four people go into a resturant to have dinner. Three of them have no money. One person has money. After the meal they vote to see who will pay the check. Majority wins.

"Definition of Democracy"

Surely what you define is "social democracy"?

That's rubbish. Democracy has nothing to do with money.

#16 "He was neither young nor old, ... He was not short or tall, ... His frame was neither fat nor thin, nor even trim, ..."

Here's something I just came across:

He was the perfect nonentity, a Chesterton's postman of a somewhat higher order.
Mr E was neither tall nor short, fat nor thin, blond nor brunette, young nor old, shag-haired nor bald. ... He was dresed, not sharply and not shabbily ...
His obvious specialty, the only obvious thing about him, was self-effacement.

From A Fine and Private Place by Ellery Queen.

That's a lot of padding for a character of very minor significance to the plot, but this is a short book and needed a lot of padding to get up to book length. The really annoying padding is the number of times that Ellery is amazed that the difference of two multiples of nine is also a multiple of nine, and not only that, but the sum of its digits is also a multiple of nine. (Though in the arithmetic of FFFC, I suppose that would always be amazing.)

Can I expect any more quotes with sandwiches in to be posted?

#443

Democracy is the 'rule of the people' in a pure democracy the majority rules. See The Apology. In a representative democracy representatives are proportioned to the 'people' about a million to one. Still bills are passed based on the majority of the votes for or against. Taken to it's simplist element it is majority rule ... whether the majority is a majority of the 'rulers' or the people.

#444

Really? So the current (so-called representative) democracies do not vote on revenue issues ... i.e. who will foot the bill for govt appropriations? So where do taxes come from??

Taxes come with Death... Always keep hearing about that Guy with a sickle named Death and Taxes. Seems he is the fastest guy on the planet because no one can outrun him...

And money to pay for things is easy. The government has the paper mache factory that prints things up, so they can keep printing that pretty colored stuff up all day long...

#445

I thought Ellery Queen was a fictional person himself, and the stories written by two people?

I don't get the 'padding' reference, S. King can take 5 pages to describe a pencil ... Koontz is not far behind. I guess you can reduce the passage you quoted to: he was an average guy who was trying to obliterate himself, or he was thinning his cervix. I'm not sure how this would improve anything.

The 'multiples of nine and the sum of the digits being a multiple of nine' is a consequence of the base 10 number system, change the base and you get the same results for the base -1. A commonly know mathematical fact. Not particularly amazing. Assuming that 1 + 1 = 2 for all cases, or that as a practical application (some)v + (some other same value) v = 2v is actually amazing ... regardless of which side of the argument you'd like to take. As noted QM - GR - STR takes the postion that such general mathematical summations as 1 + 1 = 2 are NOT accurate. Not that it is amazing to everyone everywhere ... only to those who ponder such things ... and those who wish to build a starship.

#446

I couldn't find anything on sandwiches, how about this instead?

Someone had set up frühstück in one of the restaurant areas of the Terrace. One of the Courier pilots, Sam, was cooking omelets, there were also scrambled eggs, a wide selection of cold cuts and cheese, little Nuremberg sausages, bacon, cooked and cured, pies, cakes, muffins, toast, with butter, or berry preserves. A Belgian waffle maker was on one table, with a supply of batter.

There was a good variety of fruit including fresh strawberries, berries, grapes, and even melons that had all come from the air conditioning plant, that part of the ship devoted to the growing of things hydroponically, to recycle the carbon dioxide given off by the air breathers back into oxygen. The drinks included fruit juice, cold milk to drink or for one of the cereals; there was even beer, sparkling wine, or Sangra to go with the meal.

FFFC - RAGNARÖK

#448

Quite so ... they are doing just such printing as we speak. I'm sure this will be the 'stimulus' that makes everything all better.

I am going to use mine to buy a wheelbarrow so that i can load it up and then take the stuff I put in it to the store so I can exchange the load for bread...

#447 Really? So the current (so-called representative) democracies do not vote on revenue issues ... i.e. who will foot the bill for govt appropriations? So where do taxes come from??

Democracy is a form of government, not the actual operations of a government. What they vote on is irrelevant -- the fact that every citizen is enfranchised is what makes it "democratic".

#449: Cyops "I thought Ellery Queen was a fictional person himself, and the stories written by two people?"

Yes, that's right. Dannay and Lee used the pseudonym Ellery Queen for their jointly-written fiction, and Ellery Queen is the name of one of their fictional detectives. Even worse, the fictional character Ellery Queen, as well as doing detection, writes detective stories about a fictional Ellery Queen.

"A commonly know mathematical fact. Not particularly amazing."

Exactly. That's why I find it so annoying that the book mentions every instance that comes up as though it were an amazing coincidence. In this book, the numbers are understood to be (so-called) natural numbers, and unsurprisingly given the setting and potential audience they are written to base 10.

#452: DWWilkin "... buy a wheelbarrow so that i can load it up ..."

I suppose you know the anecdote about the German hyperinflation in the 1920's, where somebody left a large basket of currency unattended for a moment and came back to find the money dumped on the ground, but no basket.

#452 - 455

LOL ... now that's funny!

I'm paid sometimes in Euros sometimes in USD, and rarely in other currency. It is a nightmare to keep up with it. The prices where I am at the time do not fluctuate with the currency rates.

Soon I guess I too will just have a wheelbarrow.

#454 Okay I get your point ... the 1+1 instance in FFFC is limited to one paragraph on one page of 870 something pages ... I don't think it is something that is annoyingly repeated.

Jim,

Didn't know that anecdote. Remember seeing a caricature cartoon of a man pushing the wheelbarrow full of money to get bread.

I do know that in the major inflation in Germay at that time the govt paid the civil service workers in the morning so they could go shopping for their needs, and then return to work. Actually the economy rapidly converted to barter ... so that people could survive ... this was much the same case in the old USSR because the collective farms could not serve the market for food. See the rise of 'fleamarkets' nowadays ... look for more as this Depression (sorry I mean tiny correctable recession) continues.

#457

I wouldn't have noticed the "not tall nor short" stuff in the EQ if the subject hadn't come up here, I didn't find it obtrusive. If the book had nearly 900 pages rather than less than 200, I would expect a copy editor to have pointed to such a passage as an example of fat which could well be trimmed.
Some of the earlier EQs could be significantly reduced in length by cutting out some of the instances in which people light cigarettes, offer each other cigarettes, stub out cigarettes, and so on.

#457

Sure. That's true enough. But editors are also notorious for 'trimming' things which a) they don't understand, and b) to fit a pre-established formula for book length.

The question WRT FFFC is what could you realistically 'trim' and yet still have the story. (this is the issue despite whether the story is of any value to any individual).

#457

I think the smoking actually has a point in FFFC. Where it was once common, and not really thought about, now it is a serious issue .... and the source of much revenue for govt.

After he lit up he looked at the cigarette for moment thinking. “A terrible habit, smoking,” he said to them, “I picked it up when I was just a kid in Texas. I spent my summers with family; one uncle had a small cotton farm, and I would go visit, pester him to let me drive the tractor. On the farm we always had a big lunch; my aunt and grandmother would cook it up in the morning and then we’d all eat at noon. Then we’d go out on the porch in the shade, and sit for a while. My uncle would toss me his makings, you know … a pouch of tobacco and some papers.” He looked at Jean and Terri, twirled his fingers as if to demonstrate. “He’d taught me how to roll him a cigarette, so he’d say ‘Roll me up a smoke boy. Roll yourself one if you like.’ And so I would.” He chuckled. “It drove my grandmother mad, she’d always get on him about it. But the habit took.”

He smiled at them. “Horrible habit, but an old friend too I guess. Curious isn’t it … whether a person smokes or not is now the primary consideration for association, friendship, or a relationship for most people.”

FFFC - MIDGARD

#461: "The question WRT FFFC is what could you realistically 'trim' and yet still have the story."

From what we've seen of FFFC, it seems to me that a lot of passages could be shortened quite a bit without loss. Not necessarily in all cases as drastically shortened as jargoneer proposed in #16.

Wasn't it Pascal who apologised at the end of a letter that it was so long, and offered the excuse that he hadn't had time to wrote a short one?