Twilight: hate it

Okay, in whose twisted mind did this novel come from? This is, as my friend best put it, "A cross between Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Dawson's Creek". I mean, what kind of Vampire sparkles? If they weren't wearing dark clothes, I would have mistaken them for fairys.

I totally agree! The books are bad, with one dimensional characters, a lame heroine, and some of the worst dialogue I've ever seen. Don't even get me started on how poorly they portray women. But as the school system fails and people get dumber, these sad books pass as great literature. Lets all grab out pitchforks and march back to the dark ages.

Are they really any worse than any of the dozens of other series that fill the YA shelves? You know the ones about gossipy girls or prep schools with slutty and mean girls or girls who work as nannies and have illicit relationships with boys they meet on the job? (note: I haven't read any of these, I'm just going by the cover descriptions, which are bad enough)

Or what about the Sweet Valley High series from about fifteen years ago? That was not what anyone would consider quality literature.

Compared to a lot of the lame, hackneyed plots out there, vampires that sparkle aren't that bad. And the writing in the books isn't worse that most of the other stuff written for the YA demographic.

I'm not sure that's true. While there is a lot of crap in any genre, the point here is that this particular story has taken such a hold on people of many different ages. The problem is that its touted as good literature, and I find it sad to see how its captivated so many people.

I've only read Meyer's "The Host", and it was one of the worst books I have ever read. I'm sure there are poorer books, but I can't remember them.

What annoys me the most is that people hold Meyer's novels up as an example of a good relationship, because neither of them have sex. Forget about the "the woman causes the man to get violent" theme, or that the woman has to be meek and submissive, because the characters don't have sex everything is alright.

The fact that so many people across so many demographics are interested in Twilight indicates that there is something about the story as it is presented that strikes a chord in the readers. Whether or not the series has any sort of lasting power remains to be seen.

Yes, it's getting a lot of hype right now, and we're also seeing a rash of similarly styled stories published (or republished) as a result. And yes, lots of people are touting it as a well-written work of fiction. Frankly, that is their prerogative, whether or not you agree with it. Every person is going to judge the quality of a written work differently. While I don't see Twilight as being award-winning quality prose, I also don't see it as being complete dreck either. It's teen fiction that happened to get the right mix of qualities combined with the right timing to become a bestseller.

How many of the bestselling novels of the last twenty years have truly had any staying power? Okay, Harry Potter is still pretty big what with the movies that are still coming out, and The Da Vinci Code still gets mentioned from time to time. But without looking it up, can you name the number one bestseller on the NY Times list from this week last year?

I second, shadrach.

And to answer the question. Nope, can't name a one.

>2 km.cruz:, 4 Who's saying that Twilight is good literature? I thought most adults who read it considered it a guilty pleasure. People are reading it for the story, not for its literary qualities.

>8 _Zoe_: I second that _Zoe_ I work for the library and no one, staff or patrons calls it great literature. Its a fun read enjoyable, but not beautiful prose or really not a book to make you think.

Shadrach has a point, I can't name one either. And since this book has come out, my school library is filled with other kids reading it. Some, thank goodness, are checking into other romance books and other fiction books. So I guess if Twilight had a positive for me, it was showing other people how much fun a book can be. Sorry if that sounded corny.:) I still don't like that book though.

Question for km.cruz: How far did you read into the series? I only read the first book before I got sick.:P:)

I think that the benefit of Twilight is that it's showing a certain group of people that it's not only possible, but completely wonderful, to lose yourself totally to a book and its characters and its world.

Twilight isn't well-written, but it's not /horribly/ written, either. It's not well-plotted, but as far as romance novels go, it's not /horribly/ plotted, either. And somehow, Meyer manages to write page turners that keep you going and going. And that is a good thing, in my book - while I might wish for teens to be reading something better-crafted, I'm pretty happy to have them reading, and invested.

My problem with Twilight is that I think that it sends an incredibly twisted message about love and relationships to a lot of very impressionable young girls. I think the relationships are abusive and unhealthy, and while I don't mind seeing that portrayed, I do mind seeing that /romanticized/. I do mind the 'it shows how much he loves me' excuses made for certain actions by the 'so perfect' Edward Cullen.

I can deal with cliches and purple prose and less-than-deep characters, but when it comes to what these books are teaching girls to value in men and relationships, I've got a real problem. So if you're 20, 30, and you're enjoying them as a guilty pleasure - awesome. If you're 13... I really hope you've got someone in your life who'll sit down with you and ask you how you feel about the way Bella gets pushed around and rescued all the time.

#12 - I agree completely. I think the relationship is thoroughly warped. I only read the first book (I was turned off by her fainting after he touched her- good grief). But even in that, he is so possessive and controlling, and she's just so needy and unconfident that it really got to me.

12: Absolutely, that's the main problem with the Twilight craze. It promotes a classically abusive relationship as the "ideal romance." :/

#12 Than your really gonna get a headache when I tell you most of the girls at my HIGH school find Edward to the best thing since sliced bread(for lack of better phrase). They think he is such a bad boy. Me? I just about threw up when I read the thing, but I couldn't because the girl who MADE me read the book, said she would kill me if I damaged the, and I quote "Best Book of All Time".:P

Oh, I know - I've met plenty of teen girls who think so. That's why it bothers me so much. ;)

Then never come here;) One of the girls has said she will name her son after him."Rolls eyes" I'm just glad tis died down just a lil over here.

I have some younger friends who adore these books. I'm going to read at least the first one... from all accounts, I need to talk to them about how the relationships in the book are portrayed, and ask them if they think it's healthy/normal.

THAT will be a fun conversation...

Wisewoman: Best of luck:)

Thanks :)

21 > that is considered a personal attack.

In terms of the relationship, I definitely think that there are certain aspects that are unsettling.

But despite all the many flaws of this book, I still enjoy it. I read through it quickly, and have fun with it. I don't expect to learn anything profound, though.

But I'm an adult, and I think about the problems that this relationship presents. Teens and preteens are probably not often doing the same. So hopefully they'll have teachers/friends/parents/etc who will ask questions and challenge them on their assumptions (as many of you seem to be doing).

TransformersFanGirl
I stopped halfway to through the second book. I'd thought perhaps her writing would get better with practice, but no.

Thanks to all who flagged post number21:). To leonrocio09, this is post where anyone, I don't tell people who like the book to get off, can speak there mind. Ur still welcomed to post, just keep the foul language out. Okay?

I'd like to point out, as a YA librarian and in connection to post 23, that the girls mostly harp on how polite Edward is and his many talents. (Also all of his money and gorgeousness, but girls do that about anyone.) In fact, I've heard several say things along the lines of "If only his temper wasn't so bad..."

They're not taking it as the gospel, they're taking the parts they like and wanting those.

I actually can't stand the guy. Male egoness is a major turn off to me.

You know, I actually liked the first one. It wasn't perfect, but it was kind of nice to get out of the classics and read a book that doesn't require a whole lot of thinking but is still fun to read.

However, I made the mistake of going on to the second book. Ergh...

Her reaction to Edward leaving her and all the dangerous things she was doing just to hear a voice in her head drove me batty. And I almost threw the book across the room after reading "the painful hole in her chest" or whatever it was twenty times (only I've never thrown a book and never will because I care too much for them, even the bad ones).

New Moon completely turned me off from Twilight. I couldn't even go back and read the first one. I just put it up on bookmooch and called it a day.

Imagine having to listen "That stuff she said twenty times"over and over and over again! I'm going mad, or I'll just duck tape the girls mouth shut. She wants us to sing all of the songs from the Twilight movie!:O NO WAY.

>29 TransformersFanGirl:

*gigglesnort* I do not envy you. I'm extremely lucky in the regard that all of my friends hate Twilight as much as I do. No threats of singing the songs over here.

>30 RebeccaAnn: I, unfortunately, have to deal with her for the remaining two years of my senten-I mean high school years. :|:)

U is so lucky:) btw, what books do u like?

you dont know what ur talking about iv read all the twilight seris so has evry one in my school so there u go it is big in pittsburg kansas

Re: 32,

I would like to hear why you and your friends like it so much (and I ask this of anyone who loves the series). It would be very interesting to this discussion to hear the other side, too.

>31 TransformersFanGirl:

Well, if you were to come to my home and see my collection of books, the first thing you would probably say is "Holy crap! You have a lot of Stephen King!" And it's true. I'm a huge Stephen King fan and will continue to stand up for him and his books for as long as I am able to. That said, I tend to read a little bit of everything. I'm currently reading The Dispossessed by Ursula K. LeGuin, a science fiction book. I love science fiction. I also love fantasy, crime, thriller, mystery (another favorite of mine is Agatha Christie), and of course, horror. The only genre I'm not a huge fan of is romance. It just doesn't seem like there's a lot of variety in that genre.

I try to read a lot of classics as well. I just got done with The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. The book is amazing and I would definitely say that's a book everyone should read at some point in their lives. You get a real look into the amount of cruelty human beings are capable of inflicting on one another.

Hi,

I agree I with RebeccaAnn's comments on New Moon. When I read the series I started with New Moon as it happened to be on the shelf where I worked. I was amaze with Bella's reaction after Edward left. Yes ok be upset but move on stop the sulking. That is what annoyed me most.

Apart from New Moon I enjoyed the series. As many other have said not great literature but enjoyable. Lets face it, it is the sexual tension between Bella and Edward that keep the reader interested.

Cheers

>35 cariad00: I'll give u that.

^ Comments like that aren't even worth reading. I'm not trying to be mean, but there is no reason to bash people just because they happen not to like a book you love. Personal attack is not a valid method of literary criticism. If you want to be taken seriously, you're going to have to put a little more effort into posting why Twilight is a good book. Attacking the people who don't like it and calling them stupid really just reflects on you.

not to mention creating a fake account in order to insult people.

Ah, very true. A very cowardly thing to do. And what some people don't know is that identities can be traced via your computer's unique IP number...

I have read the first two in the Twilight series, and was not overly enamoured (sp?). The reason I read them was because several people whose opinions I respect had recommended them. I still respect their opinions, and would never criticise someone for not having the same taste as me.

The great thing about Twilight though, whatever your opinion of its literary merits, is that it has got young people reading, and passionate about reading, in much the same way as the Harry Potter series did.

I'm sure there was more I wanted to say, but forgive me, I can't remember what it was right now!

>41 LadyN:

I completely agree, and it's another reason why I can't hate Paolini's Inheritance Trilogy either. It's gotten young people reading and I hope that, now that they've discovered the joy that can be had with a book, they'll want to keep expanding their horizons.

And I can't really say anything against younger readers for reading them. I mean, when I think of what I read when I was tween, I cringe. You don't get much worse than series like The Babysitter's Club and Sweet Valley High...

#37

It would be nice to know why you liked it, instead of you merely saying that you do. Everyone else whom has posted on here has stated their reasons for why they disliked the novel or the series.

While I certainly agree with the sentiment "Attacking the people who don't like it and calling them stupid really just reflects on you" I would have to say the same is true of "Attacking the people who do like it and calling them stupid" because that seems to be the countertrend going on. I mean really... "as the school system fails and people get dumber" they enjoy books like Twilight?

I don't know why I liked Twilight. I wasn't an Edward fan, but that didn't mean I couldn't enjoy the book. Can teens who read Harry Potter distinguish between magic and real life? Sure. Just like we can distinguish between vampire lovers and real life guys.

Not all books need to be read for literary qualities, and it's easy to attack a book for saying isn't going to be a classic, but hard to defend those attacks because that isn't why people read Twilight.

I didn't mean anything when I said books like Twilight got people reading. It just seems that in younger generations (and even in my own), people seem to spend more time watching TV or playing video games. Books are going out of style and it's nice to see the younger generations reading again, even if it is something that I don't like myself. No, I'm not a fan of Twilight, but I'm obsessed with Harry Potter, neither of which I would say are of outstanding literary merit nor are they classics. And I can't say all I read are classics either. I just spent the weekend reading science fiction and I hate Charles Dickens. We have different tastes is all.

While I certainly agree with the sentiment "Attacking the people who don't like it and calling them stupid really just reflects on you" I would have to say the same is true of "Attacking the people who do like it and calling them stupid" because that seems to be the countertrend going on.

Oh, I agree. I hope I haven't come across that way... I'm pretty close with the young girls I know who love the books, and I don't think of them as stupid at all.

But you have to admit, it doesn't help when *some* people who do love the books post in barely understandable English, with no punctuation or capitalization. At the very least, they come across as uneducated... at worst, hardly literate.

I'm not trying to be mean here, just trying to explain why it could be easy to think of Twilight fans this way. I know a lot of intelligent people who like the books while also being able to admit their flaws.

Oh I know lack of grammar doesn't help, which is sort of why I felt the need to interject on behalf of other people who like Twilight :)

And no worries, I wasn't talking specifically about everyone on this thread, just generally about Twilight-bashing, and the ancillary bashing of people who like it.

I don't really think people need to justify liking a book. It's like justifying the Mona Lisa. I think it's an ugly painting, and no amount of artistic justification of its merits will make me like it better. (It's fine to discuss what's good and bad about art/literature, and even quite enjoyable, but in the end, people will have their own opinions and rarely change them... which is sort of why I like to play devil's advocate.)

I don't know... do you think people should have to justify disliking a book? And if so, shouldn't they be able to articulate their reasons? That goes both ways. I think if you like a book, you should be able to say why — and if you don't like it, you should be able to say why. A foggy "I liked it" or "I hated it" does very little to promote discussion, and often discussion helps me to clarify my own reasons for my reaction to a particular work.

As for the Mona Lisa, it's fine you don't like it; you say it's ugly. My question would be, what is it specifically that you find ugly about it? Hearing your specific thoughts probably won't convince me to dislike it too, but I would hope it would help me to understand why you feel the way you do, and respect that position without necessarily having to share it.

I hope this doesn't come across as argumentative — that's not my intent at all :-)

I'm glad this topic is a fair bit more mature than other anti-twilight groups i've seen - some of them on librarything. As someone who will admit to liking the books i relish the opportunity to see other people's reasons as to why they don't happen to like them and if those arguments are logical and valid then all the better.

I agree with #46 - some Twi-hards are of the mindset that anyone who doesn't like the books are stupid and tell them so in text speak with liberal use of foul language. It's valid to say that the majority of people who come up with the daft -"u hav no idea wot ur tlkin bout , Edward is like the best!" arguments are of the teen generation and often don't have the critical view of what they read as many of those posting in this topic obviously do.

When i first read Twilight I thought it was so amazing and would have shouted at anyone who told me they didn't like it . Thankfully since reading topics like this one I've been able to revise that opinion and I realise that it's *not* the best written book in the world and sometimes Bella, Edward and Jacob do annoy the heck out of me, and yeah maybe SM does chuck the whole "no sex before marriage" ideal down our throats more times than we like to stomach but I still liked the story for reasons entirely personal to me and I don't feel the need to justify those reasons right here.

All I'm saying is that I can completely understand why you guys don't like the book and I'm not gonna be another teenager to have a go at you all for trashing a book I used to be near fanatical about.

So sorry for the overly long post and I'm doubly sorry if I happen to come across as vaguely condescending (please tell me if you think I am) I don't mean to be but I have been known to do so on occasion. :)

"I hope this doesn't come across as argumentative — that's not my intent at all" ... but arguing can be fun :)

What I meant is that I don't think an opinion is less valid because it is unjustified. Yes, you can explain both likes and dislikes, and it's fun to discuss those, but lacking justification doesn't mean your view is wrong. If 100 people like a book but can't point to why, and one person can point to a misplaced apostrophe as why they dislike the book, does that invalidate the other 100 people's opinion?

I agree that just saying 'I liked it' or 'I hated it' does little to promote discussion. But that doesn't make the statement less valid.

One of the things that confuses me most about the dislike of Twilight is the idea that the relationship between Edward and Bella is bad, and therefore the books are bad, and that teens shouldn't be reading them. In Grade 10 English class I read Romeo and Juliet, which was probably far worse a relationship model than most (the theme seeming to be: fall in love with someone you've never spoken to, kill yourself over them) and everyone promotes this as a good classic book that should be read for literary merit. Ultimately, I just don't see what makes it so much higher on a pedestal other than time. That's not to say that I think Twilight should be a classic, but rather that there seems to be a double standard between the themes classics portray and Twilight portray. The point is, as a reader one should be able to distinguish a good plotline from good life advice.

That is quite alright LadyViolet, I love long posts.:)

Oh excellent - there's just something about forums that make me want to wax lyrical all over the place and sound like I eat a dictionary everyday for breakfast although that then makes me sound like a pretentious twit *rolls eyes* darn it I'm doomed.

I think the big misunderstanding is that nowadays (since Harry Potter), adults *expect* to enjoy reading YA books, when H.P was the exception to the rule. YA books are written to appeal to a young audience, not their parents! While this doesn't mean adults can't and shouldn't read and enjoy YA fiction, I do think it's best to keep in mind that it will not be the same as fiction geared towards adults. I can't imagine my parents expecting to sit down for a read with my Babysitter's Club books when I was a kid :-) Alot of people are annoyed with the "no sex" issue, which in an adult book might be understandable, but with a book geared towards 13 year olds is more or less a necessity. As for the unhealthy relationships, well, I read Hamlet in high school and didn't kill myself, Othello and didn't kill my boyfriend, Crime and Punishment and didn't fall in love with a murderer and follow him to Siberia, you get the picture. Teenagers are alot more capable of making the destinction between right and wrong than people think, and in my opinion, the most important thing is for teenagers to read absolutely everything they can get their hands on, and learn to judge quality and content for themselves. My students' kids (I teach business English) are big into Twilight, and some are even reading it in English, which is a bonus! The theme crosses over well and the language is simple enough for them to understand. Also, from what I hear, they are generally very good at judging when the relationship between Bella and Edward isn't healthy and when it is. So no, it isn't great literature, but it is great YA fiction!

Pleasant back-and-forth can be fun. Bloodthirsty (ha) struggles to save face and WIN, not so much :-P

Of course it's a valid statement of fact to say "I don't like it." And it's a valid opinion as well. But you have to have a reason (even if you don't or can't articulate it, even to yourself). Logically there must be something about the book you didn't like to lead you to the conclusion that you didn't like it.

Now, I don't think you *have* to tell everyone that reason in order for your opinion to be respected. This is all a matter of taste, and I'm not saying we run roughshod over anyone who doesn't support his or her opinion with reasons.

However, "I don't like it" is not a valid argument. It's a valid fact and a valid opinion, sure. But it's not going to be convincing as an argument, because there's nothing to it, no evidence.

...lacking justification doesn't mean your view is wrong

No, it just means it's unsupported. "Right" and "wrong" as far as literary tastes go are very touchy things.

I think it's very natural to try to analyze what it is we dislike or like about a certain book, to communicate those feelings to others by giving reasons and finding common ground ("yeah, you know, that particular scene/theme/etc. bothered me too" or "That really resonated with me as well!").

And hey! Misplaced apostrophes can be VERY jarring indeed to the reading experiences of grammar gammers like myself! :-P Even if that was all I could say, at least it's something. You're basically discounting reasons based on their content, in favor of completely unsupported opinion. Numbers don't have anything to do with it; if a thousand people loved a book but couldn't come up with a single reason among them all, and one person could give at least one reason, however fanciful, for disliking it, I'd probably give more attention to the reason than all the opinions. And I'd decide for myself if it was a good reason or not. But mere unsupported opinion gives me nothing to go on.

The point is, as a reader one should be able to distinguish a good plotline from good life advice.

I completely agree! I think what concerns some, though, is that many young people reading these books are not yet mature enough to be able to do that. I think of the young girls I know who love these books... and I want to talk to them to make sure they are indeed able to make that distinction. Frankly I'm not sure they're there yet (they very well could be, but that's why I'm asking to find out!). Perhaps these books will be that defining point where they start to learn that crucial skill.

That's a good point about Romeo and Juliet — but I think the disconnect is greater between that book and the modern reader today. Also, not many people are attempting Romeo and Juliet at the vulnerable age of twelve or thirteen! Twilight is set in a contemporary period, with characters that are meant to feel very accessible and next-door-ish. I think the young girls I know would connect MUCH more strongly with Bella than with Juliet! And that's why there's more brouhaha about Twilight (in addition to its popularity, which always sparks an opposite reaction from some segment of consumers).

Welcome to the discussion, LadyViolet. I don't find you condescending at all :-)

>50 Kira:

I completely agree with your opinion of Romeo and Juliet versus Twilight. Neither one set up a good example for a healthy relationship, but no one (except for a couple bad guys) dies in Twilight.

My biggest issue with Twilight as a whole is, despite reading the entire thing through Bella's perspective, you come across knowing very little about her except that she is almost defined by her relationships with men. We don't really know her favorite anything (I mean, yes, there was that chapter where Edward was interrogating her in the first book, but even then, her favorite gemstone was topaz because it was the color of Edward's eyes). We know she likes Claire de Lune (also a favorite of Edward's) but what other music does she like? I know she liked the CD that Edward gave her, but what was on it? All we know is that it was a gift from Edward. She likes to cook for her dad, but what's her favorite kind of food? I feel like I don't know Bella at all.

In the second book, when Edward left her, she completely fell apart. It felt like she overreacted just a bit to be, given as they'd only known each other for one year. I mean, Meyer didn't even write in what happened for three or four months (I don't own the books so I can't recall how many there were exactly), she just skipped completely over them because Bella was so out of touch with reality. And what helped overcome her depression? Jacob. Another man. Jacob became her Edward-substitute. She spent all her time with Jacob. Then, when she realized she could hear Edward's voice when her life was in danger, she doesn't worry about her mental health. Instead, she puts herself in more danger so she can hear his voice some more.

And the constant references to how good-looking Edward is! One would think that was the only reason she liked him. She's constantly commenting on how handsome he is and how is voice is so musical. He dazzles her! At one point in the first book, she noticed his body for the first time, remarking that it was a great comment to his face that she could never look past it to see the body underneath. Are you really trying to tell me that Bella spent a month or so with Edward and never once looked at his body? It just seems very improbable to me.

I tried to read Eclipse but gave it up after the first chapter. Bella is at home and Edward comes to the door. She remarks (again) on how handsome he is and how musical his voice is and when he kisses her, she thinks something to the extent that the pain in her chest that she didn't even know was there disappeared and she felt lighter. That's when I closed the copy I had borrowed and promptly returned it to the library.

Granted, I haven't read the last two books of the saga and I don't own the books, so I can't go back and reread them to make sure my information is correct, so please tell me if I'm wrong. I won't take offense. These are just the reasons I couldn't stand the books.

Thank you wisewoman I'm quite possibly a recovering Twilight addict - it's been a while since i read the books properly and I think I'm now starting to dislike things which i didn't really pay attention to before and it's changing my opinion of the books in general. I don't usually like to critically analyse the books i read as I find it takes a lot of the fun out of reading but I find it interesting to read why some people don't like the Twilight books .. so here I am :)

On the point that the Twilight books have got children to read more - I do agree that it has done this pretty well . I gave the books to my 13 yr old sister who hasn't properly read a book in longer than i can remember, she has read those books more times in the last four months than I have since picking them up for the first time in August last year and I re-read books like a demon . The fact that Twilight started my sister on a book reading frenzy and also a rather odd OCD-like tidying spree that my parents have been trying to do for years, means it gets kudos in my book .

LadyViolet- Haha, than so will I, because I have the tendency to write a little tiny bit too much:D

I just have to pop in here and say that there is actually a big difference between "Romeo and Juliet" and "Twilight:" "R&G" is a TRAGEDY in which the main characters die pathetically, whereas "Twilight" has a happy ending where the main characters all end up in love and live happily ever after.

Despite the fact that many people think of "Romeo and Juliet" as being a great romantic tale, Shakespeare was actually being CRITICAL of young, heedless, thoughtless love. The lesson you're supposed to take away is that behaving like R&G will lead to tragedy and tragedy alone.

Meanwhile, Meyer is setting up that sort of relationship as desirable...everyone ends up happy, even Bella's being turned gets sorted out okay in the end because she apparently has remarkable self-control over her emotions and drives (self-control that is never demonstrated anywhere else in the series)....etc etc.

Now, I read these books myself, and I did enjoy them as being fluffy, escapist fantasies because they reminded me of what it was like to be young and stupid and in love. But, you know, I didn't end up with any of the people I was in love with when I was young and stupid...not one of those relationships had a happy ending. So while it is certainly escapist, I also hope that no one is taking "Twilight" as a manual for how relationships should work!

> 50 One of the things that confuses me most about the dislike of Twilight is the idea that the relationship between Edward and Bella is bad, and therefore the books are bad, and that teens shouldn't be reading them.

The reason I have a particular problem with Bella, as opposed to all the other girls out there making stupid relationship choices, is that because the book is written in first person, you get an extreme /romanticization/ of this bad relationship. It's not just that the relationship is bad and the choices are bad. It's that we hear about how every bad and creepy thing Edward does is /so romantic/ and shows his /true love/.

I'll grant that Romeo and Juliet is a stupid relationship too - but they pay a pretty dear price for it, and there's a lot to be said as well for contextualization of literature as far as time period and purpose. And although I think popular culture has romanticized R+J, they tend to do so with a version that's twisted a little to fit that romanticization, and most of the actual studying of the text tends to deal with things like the length and hastiness of their relationship.

That said, I don't think that /no teens ever/ should be reading these books - but I do think that mothers and fathers and even teachers ought to be asking these girls what they think about the abusive things Edward and Jacob pull off through the book, and about Bella's reaction to them. What worries me are the girls who talk about Bella as a strong heroine at the same time that Bella herself is telling me that it's not only okay, but terribly romantic to have someone sneak into your room to watch you sleep. That all these actions means he /cares/. This is not every girl - or even every teen girl - who reads Twilight. But it's enough of them that yeah, it worries me a little.

Romeo and Juliet is a satire on young love. No one is supposed to believe it was a 'good' thing, rather the opposite.

> 58 Okay, and I really do mean this as respectfully as possible, but not ALL teenagers, when they get a crush, fall stupidly in love and are just totally idiotic.

61> no, but a large enough percentage do, that's why it's a widely internationally known stereotype.

>62 readafew: i do concede that there are quite a lot of teens who fit this stereotype but I would like to chalk myself into the category of teens who *don't* fit the mold . I may be young and in love but i bloody hope i'm not *that* idiotic- hopefully i have enough sense to know not to make mistakes like some teens probably have done and kicked themselves for.

Haha....LadyViolet, I think we ALL look back on our teen years with at least a little bit of "older and wiser" head-shaking. Wait about ten years, and then tell us how many mistakes you made. I don't want to sound condescending, but making mistakes as a teenager is all part of the process. It's how you learn what you really want out of life and love, you know? I figure, if you don't regret at least one teenaged love affair, you weren't trying hard enough, lol.

>64 kmaziarz: technically speaking I'm not a teenager at 18 I'm considered an adult in most countries (except the US when it comes to alcohol) and although you don't want to sound condescending I am one of those people who finds it slightly irritating . I am not one of those teenage girls who went through crush after crush and said that they were "The One" every time. I don't believe I am going to regret my current situation although if something does go awry then you are free to say "i told you so"

Ah wonderful digressions - i feel the need to whine about Bella and her apparent lack of ability to function without Edward. It is definately *not* healthy to be so dependant on one person that when said person is no longer there you completely fall apart.

Well, as the mom of 2 teenagers, someone who enjoys YA books and read (or tried to anyway) the first book in the Twilight series myself, I feel like I need to jump in and comment.

First let me say that I would NEVER tell either of my kids that they could not read a book. And that goes for any book. In my experience the fastest way to make something appealing is to put it out of reach. AND, as strict as my own parents were about everything else they never restricted what I could read and I loved them for that. We talk with our kids about books A LOT and they cheerfully relay back to us what they are reading as well. I will explain to my kids in painfully boring detail WHY I don't think they should read something. So far that seems to work the best. I sat my son down and had a very long discussion with him about why I really did not want him reading "Hannibal" both with regard to the violence content and for more subjective literary reasons. And he seemed to listen. He has not expressed an interest in Twilight though.

As for Twilight, I tried with a very open mind to read the first book. And no, I did not read it through the eyes of an adult. One of my biggest pet peeves is that when adults review children's or YA fiction, they do it with their grown up eyes. So I did my best to read it through the eyes of my 13 year old self. And in that regard... acckk. It was awful. No, I don't expect the writing to be stellar, but writing SHOULD at the very least be like a good waiter, when it's doing it's job correctly you don't notice it. I noticed it. I noticed it initially because I wondered if the author purposely used the same descriptions over and over or if she was honestly at a loss for more vocabulary? Even so, if the plot is good enough, I can still work past the writing. In this case the book suffers from bad writing and a bad plot. The worst part (from my teenage perspective) is that the main characters are simply shallow. Bella doesn't have any hobbies, any friends, any goals or much of a life that I could see. Edward is, apparently, just repeatedly attending high school over and over. As I mentioned in my review, they both seem to have the emotional range of teabags. I think I can safely say that as a teenager I would have hated this book.

As an adult I am appalled. This book glorifies all the behavior that I have spent years teaching my kids is NOT okay. If my son treated his girlfriend the way Edward treats Bella the boy would be getting a smack-down of truly epic proportions. And I would hope that my daughter would have more self-respect and more awareness of what real romance is than to fall for this "Oh kiss me now you big sparkling hunk of a vampire you" nonsense.

I will give Twilight one credit. It is the perfect example of why parents should be paying attention to what their kids are reading and reading it themselves so that you can talk to them about.

>#65 Well, I'm not going to continue debating your personal situation with you on the internet; that would just be silly. And I hope your current situation DOES make you happy and no one has to say "I told you so." But do remember this conversation in ten years or so, and see if your opinions on your life at this age have changed by then, ha!

And regardless of the individual situations of any particular person who reads the Twilight books or posts about the Twilight books on the internet, the point still stands that these books do set up unrealistic and potentially unhealthy expectations for what teenaged relationships should be like, I'd say.

>67 kmaziarz: fine by me - all you shall hear from me will be analyses of the more irritating points of the Twilight books.

It is not a healthy relationship where the guy deems it necessary to keep an eye on the girl at all times and tries to stop her from seeing people who he doesn't approve of. I would have told Edward to sod off pretty early on if I were Bella but she doesn't seem to have the backbone to try and be more independant.

55> Good call. This means you missed the bit right after Bella dithers narratively about how hunkalicious Edward is and the bastard actually opens his mouth.

I kid you not, the opening conversation between the wonderful perfect caring compatible soulmate lovers is basically as follows:

E: We're going to Dartmouth.
B: I'm not applying to Dartmouth. I'm applying to (somewhere else).
E: No, we're going to Dartmouth, I say so.
B: Except that I haven't filled out an application and I'm not going to.
E: I already filled it out for you! *pulls out app* Just sign.
B: I'm not signing.
E: Fine then. *forges Bella's signature which is totally not identity theft or anything illegal at all*

Skip to beginning of Book Four:
BELLA'S NARRATIVE VOICE: So in the fall I'm going to Dartmouth with my wonderful perfect amazing husband even though I don't want to, but whatevs.

This is why I'm always amazed when people tell me I'm overreacting for being kind of horrified at the number of people who want guys "Just like Edward!" because vampires don't really exist. Um, you don't have to be a vampire to commit fraud. This entire exchange has absolutely jack-all to do with protecting Bella from supernatural villains or Edward being a vampire or anything paranormal-romance-trope-related in the least. It's plain old human criminality. THAT is dangerous to romanticize.

I don't know if I should be appalled by that conversation between Edward and Bella or laugh out loud. I look at stuff like this and it's kind of scary to know this is targeted towards an audience that might be too young to not make the distinction between this and a healthy relationship, especially for the reasons Aerrin99 (post 59). The relationship is idealized because of the first person point of view.

I enjoyed reading about the comparison between "Twilight" and "Romeo and Juliet", particularly posts #58 that points out while R&J has a tragic ending as a lesson about what Shakespeare sees as an unhealthy relationship, Twilight rewards this behaviour.

>69 thecynicalromantic:
Let me, just for the sake of it, play devil's advocate for a minute (even though I don't find their relationship ideal, either, and I agree that Edward is controlling).

The conversation is taken slightly out of context, and the paraphrasing is meant to emphasise the awkwardness of the conversation. (Though it's not that different.)

Edward does have a reason for wanting her to go to Dartmouth (among other things). He's not trying o protect her, true, but he, like the other vampires wants her to experiance her humanity to the fullest, especially since she is so set on becoming a vampire. He wants her to live a little before she becomes undead, which I agree with, because her determination seems youthful. It seems cool to her, and I don't think she has any sense of the drawbacks, one of which is that human experiences go out the window. There's a saying (or a movie line), "The dreams of youth are the regrets of maturity." In my mind, he just wants her to have a full experience so that she doesn't regret a decision she can't take back.

Now, I don't agree that he should be forcing her to do these things, but I don't think him totally awful for that. I see him more parental in this aspect, wanting his loved one to have the best things in life, and yeah, maybe living vicariously through her a little bit (as the other vamps seem to be doing. It's not a good thing, but it's not malicious either.

# 72 - Isn't it just as disturbing for him to take a parental role with her though? Logically you would only take a parental tone in a relationship for one of two reasons: 1. The person taking the parental role is controlling enough to feel they need to/should do so or 2. The person not in the parental role is immature enough to need that. Either way that is the description of an unhealthy dynamic in an adult relationship.

If Edward simply wants her to experience life before making this choice then in a mature, equal relationship he would explain that to her. There would be a discussion of both of their thoughts and feelings. Instead he essentially orders her to go and she capitulates because it's gorgeous Edward.

> 73 - Agreed.

This conversation isn't a problem until these two lines:

E: Fine then. *forges Bella's signature which is totally not identity theft or anything illegal at all*

Skip to beginning of Book Four:
BELLA'S NARRATIVE VOICE: So in the fall I'm going to Dartmouth with my wonderful perfect amazing husband even though I don't want to, but whatevs.

The argument is just an argument. Edward is pushy and controlling, but Bella's holding her own and fighting back and stating her own opinion.

And then Edward decides to start forging her signature.

And then Bella decides that's not only okay, but romantic (look how much he cares! He pushes me around because he loves me and is only concerned about my well being, which he clearly knows better than I do!).

That's when it becomes about something more than two people disagreeing. That's when it looks abusive.

I hate them. And actually wrote a blog entry about yelling at Twilight fans. Because I'm crazy like that. And they had more merchandise for THEIR movie than I did for MINE. Jerks. Even if it wasn't really their fault.

I loved the whole discussion!

As for the books - I've read them all and found them fairly entertaining, though actual writing skills of SM do not deserve any praise in my opinion, on the whole the plot kept me hooked quite well.

I agree that personal relationships in the books are far from healthy, and Edward is nowhere near the ideal of a boyfriend...I also do wonder why no one brought the topic of Bella's relationship with her parents to the discussion. They seem to be pretty unhealthy to me as well. A teenager moving across the country to give her parent a chance to enjoy the marriage, huh? I'm not even starting on her dad, but it's weird how no one noticed his controlling ways.

Back to Edward, he is just another reincarnation of the ultimate "bad boy" and they never lose their appeal to females of any age.

And how some people where concerned of Bella's inability to function on her own. I mean I do agree that the whole moaning was a bit over the top, but it did resonate with the painful break up for me. This period when you just want the whole world to end. It's just the book doesn't promote the policy "one out, one in...next please". I can't really see how is it so bad that the betrayal and disloyalty of the loved one pictured as devastating. In the real world of course we all grow up and get over, so let's not forget that this is just the work of fiction.

And I do strongly agree that books should be discussed.

>73 SpongeBobFishpants: & 74

I'm not saying that the situation is ideal, or right. I don't know that I find it outright disturbing. It's definitely problematic, though.

As far as this: "BELLA'S NARRATIVE VOICE: So in the fall I'm going to Dartmouth with my wonderful perfect amazing husband even though I don't want to, but whatevs."

That is not exactly how it went down.

Throughout she's done fairly well about standing up for herself. She kept her car, didn't let him buy her expensive gifts. In many way, she was very uncompromising about many things.

Then in the third book, she decided that there was something that she really wanted, so she made a deal with Edward. She was willing to go to Dartmouth, if Edward was willing to give her what she wanted. That's not letting someone control you, that's brokering a compromise for your own benefit.

She never says that he knows best in these sort of things, or that he was right. She even says that he is over protective, and has rebelled on several occasions. But she's willing to compromise and do something she doesn't necessarily want to do in order to get something from Edward (something he doesn't want to do). Compromise is an essential part of making a relationship work.

Again, I don't think the relationship is perfect (it really disturbed me when Bella reacted as badly as she did in Book 2), but I also don't think the relationship is as wickedly disturbing as some people make it out to be. There's a little more gray in there than that.

And really, I just want to point out the other point of view.

>77 andreablythe: You have a point there, but, and this might be just me, but this really looks like a one way realtionship to me. I have only read the first book, but it seems like Edward "takes alot, gives very little". And he sounds just a little bit on the overbearing side. Again, this could just be me.

>78 TransformersFanGirl:, Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb and stand up for Stephenie Meyer, just this once.

If you go onto Stephenie Meyer's website, you can read the first ten or so chapters of Midnight Sun (I think that's what it's called). It's basically Twilight from Edward's perspective and while I only read the first five chapters of this or so (I read it about the time I was becoming extremely annoyed with Twilight), it does offer some perspective into Edward's mind. You can see that he cares for Bella. Now, I only got to the part where he saves her from the van, so I don't know how deep those feelings go in comparison to Bella's, but they're there.

I think it can be safely assumed that in any relationship, one partner is always deeper in love than the other. However, I do agree with TransformersFanGirl that by just reading the Twilight Saga from Bella's perspective, Bella definitely seems to love Edward more than he loves her.

Then again, it is told form her point of view. Of course her feelings would be the focus of the story.

Yes, well I've known people who abuse their spouses even as they also 'love' them and always the abusers have excuses for their behavior, doesn't justify it or make it 'OK'.

>80 readafew:

While I agree that the relationship between Edward and Bella isn't the best, I don't know if I would call it abuse...

81 > Yet, maybe, but from what everyone on here has said (and other threads) both those for and against, it is the classic early warning signs of an abusive relationship. Control is a big issue.

Disclaimer: I have not read any of the Twilight books nor am I likely to, while I still have my sanity and with no children to supervise reading material.

I agree with readafew, and he gets really really protective when any other guy gets near her, and call me weird, but I would not find waking up to find a guy just "watching me sleep" as romantic.

>83 TransformersFanGirl:

*winces* Yeah, that was a bit creepy. That part of the book really made me question Edward's morals and Bella's mind.

And as a disclaimer, I know next to nothing about abusive relationships or the signs that lead up to them except for what is portrayed on TV shows like CSI and such (which, of course, are extremely keen on being factual... :P)

>84 RebeccaAnn: Yes most of that stuff is true in real life, but I really wonder why you would want one of your main characters to come of as abusive?

>83 TransformersFanGirl:
Edward does get protective when guys come near (women and men both tend to get jealous to varying degrees).
But he also lets go in book three. He lets her go to Jacob and be friends with him (and I know plenty of boyfriends/girlfriends in what I would consider healthy relationships who have made it clear that they did not want their partner to hang out with their ex/person who liked them), even though he is a werewolf (potentially dangerous) and his rival. He lets her make the decision of whether she will stay with him or go have a relationship with Jacob. He makes it very clear that if her happiness lies with Jacob, then he will step aside. He is willing to let her make her choices and abide by them.

So, again, this is not outright abusive to me. It's not even disturbingly controlling in my mind.

In book three, she has the opportunity to choose Jacob, she is even able to visualize her life with him, and she even considered it, but choose Edward instead. And he did not pressure her into that decision, in fact he stepped out of the way, so that she could figure it out on her own.

Bella is happy with Edward, but she also makes her own decisions about things despite her full focus on him.I would say they orbit each other, however, and that this is not just one way. His focus is fully on her, and she has definitely backed him into corners about things, too.

72: All you have listed here are Edward's reasons for wanting Bella to go to *college*. And going to college is, indeed, a good thing. Which is why Bella was in the middle of filling out applications to other schools when this conversation takes place.

You have not explained why it is absolutely imperative that Bella go specifically to DARTMOUTH and not any other university in the entire world, of which there are several hundreds, many of which are quite as good, and some of which are better.

That's because there actually is no reason whatsoever. Edward just needs to make as many decisions for Bella as possible.

77: Breaking Dawn opens with Bella being generally uncomfortable about driving the car Edward gave her, after a long negotiation where she finally got him to concede that he wouldn't buy her a new car until after her truck broke down on its own, which it did immediately after the conversation. Edward claims he didn't break it and even Bella doesn't believe him, why should the reader? She also hates the new car in question, because it is a ridiculously new fancy tankproof car designed for drug dealers 'n' stuff and attracts way too much attention. I'm not sure how any of this constitutes "She kept her car and didn't let him buy her expensive gifts."

Compromise is indeed an essential part of a relationship, but only for things that concern the relationship. Sex and marriage, for example, are important questions in a relationship, and needing to "broker a compromise" in which the bargaining chips include stuff that's no boyfriend anywhere's business, like what car she drives, what school she goes to, or whether or not she's ever allowed to hang out with her best friend again, is significative of major, major boundary and control issues. Their relationship is *their* relationship, but Bella's car is *Bella's* car, not both of theirs. And double for her signature on official documents.

>87 thecynicalromantic:
Good points all around. I don't disagree with anything you've said.

Overall, I'm middle ground about this whole thing. I feel that you can take certain sections and certain pieces of text and say, "See, look, Edward is the best boyfriend in the whole world."

You can also take other sections and say, "See, look, Edward is an evil abuser."

I see Bella and Edward's relationship as problematic, but loving throughout. I see lots of relationships that stray into very gray areas with behavior, but the overall relationship is healthy and loving.

So, while yes, I find some of Edward's behavior troubling and problematic, I can't say that it's overtly abusive.When I take in the whole picture, in my mind, there's a little more going on than that.

PS. Honestly, I just loved to play Devil's Advocate. I drive my dad nuts, because even though I mostly agree with him, I will still say, "well, hey, look at it from this angle." :)

I have to say i'm a bit disturbed by the examples I've seen of young girls saying that they don't take Twilight seriously because "Duh, vampires don't exist". Yes, we know. Most everyone but a very small child is on board with that. My concern isn't that they don't know that vampires don't exist, it's that they don't have the experience or maturity to recognize that the behavior being portrayed and romanticized in sparkles and flowery if unimaginative prose, is in fact, if not abusive and stalking at every moment, then it is CONSISTENTLY a precursor to abuse. Abusers don't start out keeping you from friends and family or smacking you one just to knock sense into you. They start out doing exactly what Edward does. They start out making decisions for you. They disregard or belittle feelings. They are occasionally magnanimous and thoughtful not because they are kind but because it keeps you coming back. "Well, I didn't like it when he told me that I couldn't (fill in the blank) but he did (fill in the blank) last week, so I can't really be upset with him. He's really very good to me." They are, in a word, controlling. And the excuse most often used is that they know best. The abuse develops from there.

I don't worry that every young girl who reads these is going down that path. I worry for the few that don't have someone to help them know the difference and who might place themselves in unhappy or dangerous relationships in an effort to find their own version of an Edward. Or even for the young men that read this and think that emulating Edward is appropriate behavior because this is obviously what girls want.

(Good Lord, I had no idea my soap box was so high or so long-winded)

>89 SpongeBobFishpants: True, some might. or will, go for the bad guys. Fortunatley, since I hate the book and male egos, so I won't be one of them.:)

Twilight isn't the type of book (YA, vampires, etc.) that generally would attract me. But after reading the storm of comments about Meyer's work on my Read Street blog -- 280+ comments pro and con -- I was intrigued.

Stephen King started the storm, by saying that Meyer can't write. After reading Twilight, I agree she doesn't have King's polish -- or the sheen of great YA fiction of my era such as A Wrinkle in Time. I cringed at her repetitive descriptions -- "deafening engine" and "earsplitting rumble" in the same paragraph, for example. And how many times do we have to hear how gorgeous Edward Cullen is? Perfectly muscled chest, glorious angel, marble contours are just a few of the phrases.

Even more disappointing was the lack of drama. You'd expect lots of tension in a book where girl meets vampire, but Bella accepts Edward as though he were simply an exchange student from France. More angst is shown over the prom than over Edward's ability to consume her. Only when some roaming vampires appear does Meyer ramp up the tension; that scene was well-crafted. But later she fails to describe the climactic scene -- it occurs entirely "off camera."

That said, Meyer deserves credit for creating an absorbing tale and likeable characters. Her descriptions of high school life ring true: who's taking you to the prom, what are you wearing? And she gives you a feel for the story's primary setting, a small town in Washington. I also cut her some slack for creating non-traditional vampires; she should have artistic license to develop characters, without falling back on the Bram Stoker model. And she sure has tapped into that feeling of electric, impetuous first love, a big factor in attracting young readers.

Thats true Dave, but even I, a girl, about lost my lunch reading over and over and over about how handsome Edward was!

>92 TransformersFanGirl: there really is *so* many times you can stomach the repetitive mentions of his "liquid topaz eyes" or his "hard, marble smooth body" before you want to poke yourself in the eyes with sharp pointy things just to stem the endless flow of retch-inducing descriptions

LadyViolet: AMEN Sister!:D

I read the entire series -- while I enjoyed some of it, I had many, many problems with it. As lady said, it's incredibly repititious. All the gooey obsessing..it gets tiring. There's so much of the same thing..so much filler..not enough plot. The last book was perhaps the best in my opinion, mainly because it actually had a lot going on with the plot. Even a few surprises. The second and third book were almost pointless, in my opinion.

I have only read the first book and am not planning to read the rest.

Twilight is a nice, easy to read story. But. There is nothing in the book that is outstanding enough to cause the hype it did. As has been mentioned above, too much repetition, too shallow charaters, unhealthy relationship, etc. Stephenie Meyer would really benefit from the book How not to write a novel.

Then, Edward Cullen. I don't know if its because of the movie (which I haven't seen) but I cannot understand why people are crazy about him. There is really nothing to like about him in the book. He has almost no personality. His just too perfect, too flawless, too everything to be taken seriously. A little bit of realism would have gone a long way . . .

It would have made him almost "human" so to speak, but I believe there issuch a thing as "Too good to be true" right?

I find it funny that everyone keeps pointing out the unhealthy relationship between Edward and Bella. He's a VAMPIRE people! How healthy of a relationship could it be??? If he were just like a normal guy than this would have been just another love story..and this is not just another love story.

True, but as far as love goes, your supposed to want what is best for that person, not urself. That is the fine line between lust and love. He is a vampire, which creates special problems, but as far as being abusive or overprotective, ther is no excuse.

>99 TransformersFanGirl: - Agreed!

#99

I don't agree. If he were a "normal" guy, then I would have a problem with abuse of any kind. Since he is not normal...there has to be some understanding that he does what he does because of what he is.

>101 MDLady:, So it's okay to be over controlling to the point of being able to be categorized as abusive because he's a vampire?

Something about that just isn't adding up...

I don't know any vampres personally, so I can't tell you if they are all abusive.

It's a fantasy, and he's an over controlling vampire. It makes perfect sense.

Why should she have written him any other way?

Since I've never met a vampire,

I would have to say they would

be like us, some are good,

others are not. And I'm still not

geting how him being an over

controlling vampire makes sense

being controlling vampire isn't the problem it is the controlling relationship being sold as a 'great' relationship.

> 105

Exactly - there are many vampires in fiction, and some of them are much worse than Edward. The issue here isn't that he's controlling or borderline abusive - it's that the books spend a ton of time telling us how AWESOME it is that he is.

IE, all these creepy things he does are not things to be worried about or scared of, but instead things that mean that he truly LOVES Bella, and that she loves these things about him. It's that aligning of 'creepy' with 'true love' that's disturbing - not just the 'creepy'.

And besides which, saying that it's OKAY that he's abusive/over-controlling because he's a vampire is pretty similar to saying, "it's ok that he's abusive because he was abused as a child and can't help it," or "it's ok that he's abusive because he's stressed all the time" or "it's ok that he's abusive because I know he always really feels bad later." How is one justification any better than the other? The result is the same...an abused woman.

I am new to this group.Please suggest me some books on fantasy. Thanks and Regards Anand Veturi.

Anandveturi, I would suggest Terry Brooks' A Magic Kingdom For Sale...Sold! Its very entertaining

If you're into something more adult, I just got caught up on the Gentlemen Bastards series (the first is The Lies of Locke Lamora) by Scott Lynch and so far, I think they're my favorite reads this year. Anne Bishop's Black Jewels Trilogy is also a good, but very adult, fantasy. The first book in that series is Daughter of the Blood. Other good fantasy that I like is Terry Pratchett's Discworld series. It's very satirical and the first is The Color of Magic. Of course, there is Lord of the Rings, starting with The Fellowship of the Ring by JRR Tolkien.

Here is a thread listing a bunch of fantasy books that don't follow the pattern: Hero named in a prophecy travels with mismatched group of friends to evil place to save the world.

Hope that helped!

There is also Eragon and its sequels, and also Twilight Child its also a classic. Oh yeah! have you read DragonLance? its really good.

>107 kmaziarz:, I really have to disagree with you. He may have been over-protective, but abusive? No. I think Bella was the far more abusive one in the relationship, manipulative..selfish..obsessive, incredibly needy, didn't care who she hurt, etc. Really, it was a weird relation..a vampire, an emo girl, and a werewolf, so there's bound to be flaws..but while reading the books, I never once saw Bella as being a victim...ever. I'm not saying that Edward was perfect..but the people that portray Bella as a poor, helpless, victim of an unhealthy relationship just make me laugh. Bella thought the world centered around her completely, and she drug everything down into her own world where it was all about her needs and wants. And when things didn't go exactly how she wanted she curled into a ball and and fell apart..leaving everyone else behind to feel bad for her.

Overall, Bella to me, was the real manipulator in the series, and she made everyone constantly worry and care for her every need. Everything that was done for her was out of love/fear for her safety..yet everything she did was out of selfishness and insecurity. She probably wasn't intentionally abusive..but that doesn't change the fact that she was. Essentially -- everything Edward did was in Bella's best interest (atleast in his perspective), and everything Bella did was in Bella's best interest. That's part of the reason I didn't care for the books. It was like the entire universe revolved around her..and everything in that universe was there to fulfill one of her many needs.

Wow twilightnocturne — thanks for such a different perspective! I haven't read the books yet, but it's great to get such a different opinion to bear in mind (as well as the more common one, of Edward's abusiveness) while I do.

>112 twilightnocturne:
I have been reading this thread and I myself never saw Edward as abusive in anyway. I couldn't figure out a way to express what I was thinking....but I totally agree with you. I personally liked the books - not loved mind you - but I did have issues with it. One being the fact that Bella did seem to think only of herself - or rather, herself and how her life should/could/had to revolve around Edward no matter what the cost to herself or others.

I personally know young girls who have read the series and they don't put nearly as much thought into the actions and personality of the characters as some of us older folk have :)
I don't know if that's a good thing or not but a lot of the issues some of us seem to have with the series, aren't even on the radar for these girls.

wisewoman, most people feel Edward was really abusive, but I just didn't see it that way. I'm sure there's a few others who feel similar.. though you're right, the Edward being abusive opinion is far more common. Really though, if you erased all of Edwards flaws and questionable actions, and made him exactly like Bella..I guarantee far more people would be calling him abusive..yet when Bella acts in this manner generally, she gets off scott free and is proclaimed as the victim. I won't deny it was a weird relationship all around..and there was the toying of emotions on both sides..but yeah..Bella being a victim? I just can't see it that way :p

WilowRaven, yes, that's a good point :). And all in all, I think these books are really just meant to be read for fun anyway. There's really no need to dig so deep..just sit back and enjoy (if you want). Kind of like one of those corny movies on sci-fi. Not a lot of deep thought needed..but entertaining just to watch. I took the books in this way. I actually enjoyed them too..though oddly, I thought the 4th was by far the best. I'm more of an action person, and I felt Breaking Dawn has much less mushiness and more action :p

I had never actually thought about Bella's behavior before but I definitely see where you're coming from. I think Meyer wrote her to come off as selfless but you're right, it's the opposite. She comes across as very selfish in regards to Edward.

>115 twilightnocturne:, I liked the first book, but the second book killed me. That's when I started noticing all the repetitive language and Bella's behavior when Edward left her drove me nuts. I read the first chapter of the third book, realized it was still the same, and stopped reading. I haven't picked up a copy since and I don't regret it at all.

I read the whole series, and throughout the entire thing it felt like Mayer was just living out her own little personal fantasies. It was very dissapointing considering all the hype surrounding it.

>117 Scritch:, *applauds* That just about sums up the entire series.

>twilightnocturne

Wow, you made some good points there. Bella acted

like a spoiled brat when things didn't go her way. I

think it would be sae to say that both Bella and

Edward were abusive. I still can't see why people

liked this book, other than a gulity pleasure.

That the character of Bella is self-absorbed, manipulative, obsessive, shallow and as useless as a speedometer on a teapot is objectionable in it's own right but doesn't negate the fact that Edwards is written in a such a way as to romanticize behavior that is controlling and abusive. "I did it for your own good" is a phrase much used by abusers of all flavors. What it translates to is " I think I have a good reason to violate your boundaries."

That teenage girls don't look at the book as deeply as us older people is understandable, but it doesn't mean that they don't absorb the idea that the relationship between these two people is portrayed as not only acceptable but appealing and exciting.

Upon watching the movie and reading the book, I feel that the series is a jummbled, patched up collection of romantic moments conjured in meyer's head.

Just tell me three reasons why you hate it and I will be okay it.

1. Edward is abusive and creepy.
2. Bella is a brat.
3.There is no plot.

1. Edward is indeed abusive and creepy
2. Bella is passive and irritating
3. Sparkly vampires are deeply silly

I can keep going for a lot more than three, but those are the easiest.

I STILL do not see the point of having SPARKLING vampires. Vampires are

supposed to be scary.

Oh, I can answer that....

DISCO vampires!

lol SpongBobFiahPants
and I do agree that edward is abusive and creepy
I also agree that Bella is a brat and that she is "passive"
but i draw the line at having no plot. There is a plot!

>125 TransformersFanGirl:, Do you suppose he's related to Tinkerbell in any way? A distant cousin, maybe. She was sparkly!

I think so, *Points to earlier post* I already assumed some link to fairies.

I only consider a few guilty pleasure books to have plots, these is not one of

them.

RebeccaAnn/128, I love your explanation of Edward's sparkling! "Fan"-fiction opportunity, anyone?

Don't forget the intended audience these series are written for... Young Adults. I think what is important to remember here is this series has kids (YA in particular) reading. As for me (adult), it a little guilty pleasure, but I don't think this series even comes close to the fine works of literature. As for the vamps being sparkly, this is a YA series which appeals to those YA's (and adults too)

131, we all KNOW the books are written for young adults. I love good YA lit. This looks to be nothing of the kind. And do we really want our teens reading something that basically tells them it's okay to be totally obsessed with their overprotective, stalker-ish boyfriends and give up everything else in their lives for them. Lastly, no books, whether for three-year-olds, teeny boppers, or citizens, should EVER have sparkling vampires. EVER.

I agree, 132 - there's much unpublished material that's superior to books like this.

I am a Guide Leader and I hate Twilight, I have read so many other books that are mounds better than this, I love Urban Fantasy/Young Adult books. This is just repetitive and frustrating to read. Another series that winds me up is Kristin and P.C. Cast's House of Night series. Even if I was 8 years younger (putting me back into being a teen) I would still feel the same way.

Women's lib and all that, they portray relationship's poorly, a girl who has eyes for only 1 guy, from the minute she set eyes on him, and he for her even though he is ancient etc. Or as a girl who can't make up her mind on who she loves and just blunders from one snog to the next with no care and then wonders why everyone hates her.

Ok, that does it. I'm gonna get my own copy and (try and) read the first book in the series.

I disliked the film, and what I've heard so far leads me to believe that actually going through the book in its entirety (much less the 4-book series) is going to be nothing but a waste of time, but anything that stirs up so much discussion simply needs to be experienced.

Personally i like the fact that they sparkle. Not because they sparkle just that t gives the much abused idea of a vampire a bit of originality. You know what I mean?

OK, so it's YA, but that doesn't mean the characters have to be as really one-dimensional and flat just like the story. We've seen all the plot ingredients in much better settings - in YA and adult lit alike - often enough. It's really a pity that so many really good book don't get the treatment they deserve...

137: I agree. to me YA means teenagers are the intended audience, not that quality of the book is bad. It's an insult to the genre to say that a YA novel can get away with having a silly plot, flat characters and bad writing. Like any genre there are good and bad books, so low quality shouldn't be part of its definition.

136: I've heard that argument a few times. Fair enough - the vampire thing has been used many many times, but reinventing it with sparkling is beyond ridiculous. How is that attractive? I can't understand how every reader didn't burst out laughing and toss the book aside when they read that. And why don't the vampires have any weaknesses?

heh, someone sent me a you-tube link (which I have now lost, unfortunately) to a Buffy/Twilight movie mashup, wherein clips from the two have been cleverly combined to make it look like Edward is obsessing on Buffy, who is totally not impressed. I liked the ending - it was very satisfying.

Try this link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZwM3GvaTRM

I agree with tardis. Quite satisfying.

>138 inkspot: The reason i did not burst out laughing was because of the way Stephenie wrote it. She made it seem beautiful and awesome. She made me believe that it was attractive. I admit that the idea is silly but when you read it the way she writes it sounds so gorgeous you can't laugh.

141: I guess it's just a difference of opinion then. I laughed at a lot of her writing, although mostly I cringed.

Often Meyer would be saying one thing - eg. Edward is scintillating/stunning/dazzling - and I'd feel the opposite - eg. Edward sounds gross and he's so rude and arrogant.

Meyer tells the reader what they're supposed to think, but, for me at least, she failed to show it. Using every synonym she could find for beautiful and obsessed wasn't enough. I didn't find Edward attractive, I felt Bella was consciously lying to herself about being plain, and I never got caught up in any of the romance.

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, but I had no internet access. How is everyone doing these days?

Hahahahahahhahaha Buffy vs Edward was awesome!

The relationship between Bella and Edward was psycho/fatal attraction/unhealthy, etc and Buffy kicked tail! Love it!

Buffy vs Edward? No contest. Sparkley Vampire never had a chance. I make a formal apology to Buffy, I was still half out of it when I wrote that.:D

I think you mean BUFFY vs. Edward, TFG? Because I think even a Sparkly Vampire has a chance against a self-absorbed basket case.

>148 ncgraham: I'm a Twilight fan but that comment deserves a laugh.

I wonder what Dracula would say if he could see

these "Modern Day" vampiers.

So I finally read it! My review is currently Hot right now (which I did not expect!) if anyone wants to check it out :)

That's one thing that actually disappointed me too in the book, that Dracula is never even mentioned. It's such a pivotal book in the genre, it seems almost ungrateful when there isn't the slightest allusion to it.

>151 atimco:: I seem to be able to successfully ignore the constant descriptions of Edward's beauty and Bella's pathetic, selfish obsession, and so I think I will carry on with the rest of the series if I can stomach it.

This was my opinion at the end of the first book. I kind of liked it and was sort of curious as to what would happen. The second book is bad, though. Very, very bad. Especially in comparison to the first book, which is saying something. I'm curious as to your reaction to the second book and when you read it, I hope you'll send me your review or post here. Bella's dependency on Edward only gets worse in book two. It was the book that made me call it quits on the entire series.

Happy reading!

Hey Wisewoman! I've been reading your reviews on Twilight, and I have to say I agree with much of what you write. I too had the same (at least similar) experience while reading these very popular novels. While I found so many flaws with Twilight..and had so many issues with it..I continued to read it, and at the same time, in some ways..I strangely enjoyed it. It's kind of a love/hate relationship! Haha.

I also have to say..book two (New Moon) was far worse than Twilight in the plot department, and book three doesn't get any better. Infact, I found Eclipse to be so slow and plodding that I had to put it down for awhile. It took me FOREVER to get through. Fortunately, however, I was rather pleased (as pleased as I'll get with a series about sparkly vampires) with the fourth book. I found the story to be much more complete -- there was a beginning, middle and end. There were more things going on..and I even felt a bit of character development going on. It was just, at least in my opinion, better that the previous two. So with that said..if you continue, prepare for yet another slow, unimpressive read...but perhaps, you may enjoy Breaking Dawn as I did.

Thanks for your thoughts, guys!

I agree the second book is worse than the first. I managed to write a review of New Moon yesterday. I don't know that I touched on all the issues, but the main ones should be there.

I finished Eclipse last night and started Breaking Dawn. I'm still digesting, thinking. It's amazing to me how Meyer manages to create new problems and sick situations in every book. The whole Jacob-as-a-space-heater scene was pure wish fulfillment on the part of Meyer.

I agree there is something there that makes you want to keep reading, though. Can't wait to be done, lol.

Ah, the Jacob space-heater scene...haha. That was when my opinion of Meyers being slightly twisted was confirmed. Lol.

Well, I finished the series and posted reviews on the last two. I agree with you, twilightnocturne, that Breaking Dawn was possibly the best of the series. It got quite interesting there at the end.

You've been writing great reviews, wisewoman, very articulate!

A lot of people've said Breaking Dawn was the best... I couldn't make it more than fifty pages because the writing was just so awful. Her prose in the first few books, while not Shakespeare, was lush and involving, but by the fourth one it was like she was writing fanfic for her own world. (A complaint I hear a lot, but a true one.) Her characters were finally just constructs to suit her fantasies and the plot she wanted, not characters themselves, and the plot was one that's been used a thousand times and the prose was astonishingly flat. (A bit forgiveable since she admittedly doesn't read vampire fiction, but less forgiveable since I think if she's going to write in the genre, she really ought to check and see what's been done.)

Anyway, all that to say that people usually tell me the end is better and every time they do I want to read it and see, but when I try my stomach just can't handle it.

Quick question, where did she get the idea for vampires that sparkle anyways???

I've been told it was from a dream she had.

How this still sounded like a good idea after she woke up I can't imagine.

Was she drunk before she went to sleep???

She's a Morman and they don't drink. So she doesn't have being under the influence as an excuse.

I don't think bashing Meyer is really the way to go about critiquing the series. I tend to prefer reviews/threads that focus on the issues within the books themselves, rather than taking snark shots at the author. A little snark can be fun, but there's a line where it becomes ugly.

157: FFortuna, thanks for the compliment. I'm glad you enjoyed my reviews :)

I read the twilight series and I actually enjoyed it. It's not well written, or deep at all, but it's decently entertaining. I prefer to think of it as "fluff" reading. Entertaining, easy to read, and requires little thought. I also think that part of the reason that it has been so popular is that it is an easy read for those that aren't necessarily readers. If a young girl or guy reads the twilight series and actually enjoys it, more then likely, they will venture off in search of another book/series that they can enjoy.

http://g4tv.com/attackoftheshow/comedy/68575/Kevin-Pereira--Olivia-Munns-Twiligh...

Another amusing Twilight spoof!

*Rolls on floor laughing*

>163 ashleyckrr: I agree with you there. I only read the first one and rather rolled my eyes and chuckled my way through it, but then I gave it to my then 12-year-old sister who would never read anything except for the occasional exception (Harry Potter).

Now, a year and 50,000 Edward Cullen posters later, she has read and enjoyed over 70 young adult books and has her own LT account that she USES. That's more books than I read this year! I can only hope that it leads to a whole lifetime of reading.

Well, I guess Twilight wasn't a total waste:)

I'll second that.

cool 8)