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1Garp83
Princeton's press website has a few very inteesting new titles I thought I might share with you, such as:
428 AD
An Ordinary Year at the End of the
Roman Empire
Giusto Traina
With a preface by Averil Cameron
“This is one of those
books for which one
has longed for a very
long time. Only by
the decision to place
one year on the map
of an entire segment
of Europe and the
Middle East is it
possible to seize the
full dynamics of the
history of the later
Roman Empire. . . .
This is truly a book
which opens a window on to the world of late
antiquity.”
—Peter Brown, author of Augustine of Hippo: A
Biography
This is a sweeping tour of the Mediterranean
world from the Atlantic to Persia during the last
half-century of the Roman Empire. By focusing
on a single year not overshadowed by an epochal
event, 428 AD provides a truly fresh look at a
civilization in the midst of enormous change—as
Christianity takes hold in rural areas across the
empire, as western Roman provinces fall away
from those in the Byzantine east, and as power
shifts from Rome to Constantinople. Retracing
the kind of route a contemporary gazetteer might
have taken, Giusto Traina describes the empire’s
people, places, and events in all their simultaneous
richness and variety. The result is an original
snapshot of a fraying Roman world on the edge of
the medieval era.
Giusto Traina is professor of Greek history at the
University of Rouen.
June 2009. 224 pages. 10 maps.
Cl: 978-
AND
Civilizations of Ancient Iraq
Benjamin R. Foster &
Karen Polinger Foster
“Original and
unique, this ambitious
grand survey
provides a refreshing
history of ancient
Iraq in its entirety in
one brief and accessible
volume.”
—Marc Van De
Mieroop, author of
King
Hammurabi of Babylon:
A Biography
In Civilizations of
Ancient Iraq, Benjamin and Karen Foster tell the
fascinating story of ancient Mesopotamia from
the earliest settlements ten thousand years ago
to the Arab conquest in the seventh century. Accessible
and concise, this is the most current and
authoritative book on the subject. With illustrations
of important works of art and architecture
in every chapter, the narrative traces the rise and
fall of successive civilizations and peoples in Iraq
over the course of millennia—from the Sumerians,
Babylonians, and Assyrians to the Persians,
Seleucids, Parthians, and Sassanians.
Ancient Iraq was home to remarkable achievements.
One of the birthplaces of civilization, it
saw the world’s earliest cities and empires, writing
and literature, science and mathematics, monumental
art, and innumerable other innovations.
Civilizations of Ancient Iraq gives special attention
to these milestones, as well as to political, social,
and economic history. And because archaeology
is the source of almost everything we know about
ancient Iraq, the book includes an epilogue on the
discovery and fate of its antiquities. Compelling
and timely, Civilizations of Ancient Iraq is an
essential guide to understanding Mesopotamia’s
central role in the development of human culture.
Benjamin R. Foster is professor of Assyriology
and curator of the Babylonian Collection at Yale
University. Karen Polinger Foster is lecturer in
ancient Near Eastern and Aegean art at Yale.
July 2009. 288 pages. 21 halftones. 1 line illus. 2 maps.
Cl: 978-0-691-13722-3 $26.95 | £15.95
Catalogs online at:
http://press.princeton.edu/catalogs/hist09.pdf
http://press.princeton.edu/catalogs.html
428 AD
An Ordinary Year at the End of the
Roman Empire
Giusto Traina
With a preface by Averil Cameron
“This is one of those
books for which one
has longed for a very
long time. Only by
the decision to place
one year on the map
of an entire segment
of Europe and the
Middle East is it
possible to seize the
full dynamics of the
history of the later
Roman Empire. . . .
This is truly a book
which opens a window on to the world of late
antiquity.”
—Peter Brown, author of Augustine of Hippo: A
Biography
This is a sweeping tour of the Mediterranean
world from the Atlantic to Persia during the last
half-century of the Roman Empire. By focusing
on a single year not overshadowed by an epochal
event, 428 AD provides a truly fresh look at a
civilization in the midst of enormous change—as
Christianity takes hold in rural areas across the
empire, as western Roman provinces fall away
from those in the Byzantine east, and as power
shifts from Rome to Constantinople. Retracing
the kind of route a contemporary gazetteer might
have taken, Giusto Traina describes the empire’s
people, places, and events in all their simultaneous
richness and variety. The result is an original
snapshot of a fraying Roman world on the edge of
the medieval era.
Giusto Traina is professor of Greek history at the
University of Rouen.
June 2009. 224 pages. 10 maps.
Cl: 978-
AND
Civilizations of Ancient Iraq
Benjamin R. Foster &
Karen Polinger Foster
“Original and
unique, this ambitious
grand survey
provides a refreshing
history of ancient
Iraq in its entirety in
one brief and accessible
volume.”
—Marc Van De
Mieroop, author of
King
Hammurabi of Babylon:
A Biography
In Civilizations of
Ancient Iraq, Benjamin and Karen Foster tell the
fascinating story of ancient Mesopotamia from
the earliest settlements ten thousand years ago
to the Arab conquest in the seventh century. Accessible
and concise, this is the most current and
authoritative book on the subject. With illustrations
of important works of art and architecture
in every chapter, the narrative traces the rise and
fall of successive civilizations and peoples in Iraq
over the course of millennia—from the Sumerians,
Babylonians, and Assyrians to the Persians,
Seleucids, Parthians, and Sassanians.
Ancient Iraq was home to remarkable achievements.
One of the birthplaces of civilization, it
saw the world’s earliest cities and empires, writing
and literature, science and mathematics, monumental
art, and innumerable other innovations.
Civilizations of Ancient Iraq gives special attention
to these milestones, as well as to political, social,
and economic history. And because archaeology
is the source of almost everything we know about
ancient Iraq, the book includes an epilogue on the
discovery and fate of its antiquities. Compelling
and timely, Civilizations of Ancient Iraq is an
essential guide to understanding Mesopotamia’s
central role in the development of human culture.
Benjamin R. Foster is professor of Assyriology
and curator of the Babylonian Collection at Yale
University. Karen Polinger Foster is lecturer in
ancient Near Eastern and Aegean art at Yale.
July 2009. 288 pages. 21 halftones. 1 line illus. 2 maps.
Cl: 978-0-691-13722-3 $26.95 | £15.95
Catalogs online at:
http://press.princeton.edu/catalogs/hist09.pdf
http://press.princeton.edu/catalogs.html
3stellarexplorer
Wow! Thanks!
6Feicht
Well I suppose I may as well post a couple and their book descriptions:
(I just picked up the first one--haven't read it yet--but I'm sure it'll be great)
"AD 381: Heretics, Pagans and the Dawn of the Monotheistic State" by Charles Freeman (out now)
"In AD 381, Theodosius, emperor of the eastern Roman empire, issued a decree in which all his subjects were required to subscribe to a belief in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This edict defined Christian orthodoxy and brought to an end a lively and wide-ranging debate about the nature of God; all other interpretations were now declared heretical. It was the first time in a thousand years of Greco-Roman civilization free thought was unambiguously suppressed. Yet surprisingly, the popular histories claim that the Christian Church reached a consensus on the Trinity at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381. Why has Theodosius's revolution been airbrushed from the historical record?
In this groundbreaking new book, acclaimed historian Charles Freeman shows that the council was in fact a sham, only taking place after Theodosius's decree had become law. The Church was acquiescing in the overwhelming power of the emperor. Freeman argues that Theodosius's edict and the subsequent suppression of paganism not only brought an end to the diversity of religious and philosophical beliefs throughout the empire, but created numerous theological problems for the Church, which have remained unsolved. The year AD 381, as Freeman puts it, was "a turning point which time forgot."
===============================
"The Forge of Christendom: The End of Days and the Epic Rise of the West" by Tom Holland (out 5 May)
"In AD 900, few would have guessed that the splintering kingdoms of Christendom were candidates for future greatness. Hemmed in by implacable enemies on three sides, and by ocean on the fourth, it seemed that the Christian people had nowhere to turn. Indeed, there were many who feared—cast in the Millennium’s shadow—that they were nearing the time when the Antichrist would appear, drowning the world in blood and heralding its end.
But the Antichrist did not appear, and Christendom did not collapse. Instead, forged from the convulsions of those terrible times, there emerged a new civilization as the Christian people set to the heroic task of building a Jerusalem on earth themselves. With an epic sweep that transports us from the crucifixion to the First Crusade, and from the glitter of Constantinople to the bleak shores of Canada, Tom Holland’s The Forge of Christendom is a brilliant study of a truly fateful revolution: the emergence of Western Europe for the first time as a distinctive and expansionist power.
It was the age of Otto the Great and William the Conqueror, of Caliphs and Viking sea-kings, of hermits, monks, and serfs. It witnessed the spread of castles, the invention of knighthood, and the founding of a papal monarchy. Above all, it brought people to fear that the end days might be at hand, and yet also—with an effort so prodigious that it has the power to move us still—to invent themselves anew.
A momentous achievement: for this was nothing less than the founding of the modern West. It is an epic story that Tom Holland renders with the narrative skill and wide-angled scope of a novelist and the careful scholarship a historian. It will transform its readers’ conception of the origins of the Modern West."
=================================
"How Rome Fell: Death of A Superpower" by Adrian Goldsworthy (out 5 May... OR, available with an alternative title --like so many of Goldsworthy's books, for whatever reason-- already out as of 26 Feb, "Fall of the West: The Death of the Roman Superpower")
"In AD 200, the Roman Empire seemed unassailable. Its vast territory accounted for most of the known world. By the end of the fifth century, Roman rule had vanished in western Europe and much of northern Africa, and only a shrunken Eastern Empire remained. What accounts for this improbable decline? Here, Adrian Goldsworthy applies the scholarship, perspective, and narrative skill that defined his monumental Caesar to address perhaps the greatest of all historical questions—how Rome fell.
It was a period of remarkable personalities, from the philosopher-emperor Marcus Aurelius to emperors like Diocletian, who portrayed themselves as tough, even brutal, soldiers. It was a time of revolutionary ideas, especially in religion, as Christianity went from persecuted sect to the religion of state and emperors. Goldsworthy pays particular attention to the willingness of Roman soldiers to fight and kill each other. Ultimately, this is the story of how an empire without a serious rival rotted from within, its rulers and institutions putting short-term ambition and personal survival over the wider good of the state."
EDIT: Hmm, some of the touchtones aren't working... bummer.
(I just picked up the first one--haven't read it yet--but I'm sure it'll be great)
"AD 381: Heretics, Pagans and the Dawn of the Monotheistic State" by Charles Freeman (out now)
"In AD 381, Theodosius, emperor of the eastern Roman empire, issued a decree in which all his subjects were required to subscribe to a belief in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This edict defined Christian orthodoxy and brought to an end a lively and wide-ranging debate about the nature of God; all other interpretations were now declared heretical. It was the first time in a thousand years of Greco-Roman civilization free thought was unambiguously suppressed. Yet surprisingly, the popular histories claim that the Christian Church reached a consensus on the Trinity at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381. Why has Theodosius's revolution been airbrushed from the historical record?
In this groundbreaking new book, acclaimed historian Charles Freeman shows that the council was in fact a sham, only taking place after Theodosius's decree had become law. The Church was acquiescing in the overwhelming power of the emperor. Freeman argues that Theodosius's edict and the subsequent suppression of paganism not only brought an end to the diversity of religious and philosophical beliefs throughout the empire, but created numerous theological problems for the Church, which have remained unsolved. The year AD 381, as Freeman puts it, was "a turning point which time forgot."
===============================
"The Forge of Christendom: The End of Days and the Epic Rise of the West" by Tom Holland (out 5 May)
"In AD 900, few would have guessed that the splintering kingdoms of Christendom were candidates for future greatness. Hemmed in by implacable enemies on three sides, and by ocean on the fourth, it seemed that the Christian people had nowhere to turn. Indeed, there were many who feared—cast in the Millennium’s shadow—that they were nearing the time when the Antichrist would appear, drowning the world in blood and heralding its end.
But the Antichrist did not appear, and Christendom did not collapse. Instead, forged from the convulsions of those terrible times, there emerged a new civilization as the Christian people set to the heroic task of building a Jerusalem on earth themselves. With an epic sweep that transports us from the crucifixion to the First Crusade, and from the glitter of Constantinople to the bleak shores of Canada, Tom Holland’s The Forge of Christendom is a brilliant study of a truly fateful revolution: the emergence of Western Europe for the first time as a distinctive and expansionist power.
It was the age of Otto the Great and William the Conqueror, of Caliphs and Viking sea-kings, of hermits, monks, and serfs. It witnessed the spread of castles, the invention of knighthood, and the founding of a papal monarchy. Above all, it brought people to fear that the end days might be at hand, and yet also—with an effort so prodigious that it has the power to move us still—to invent themselves anew.
A momentous achievement: for this was nothing less than the founding of the modern West. It is an epic story that Tom Holland renders with the narrative skill and wide-angled scope of a novelist and the careful scholarship a historian. It will transform its readers’ conception of the origins of the Modern West."
=================================
"How Rome Fell: Death of A Superpower" by Adrian Goldsworthy (out 5 May... OR, available with an alternative title --like so many of Goldsworthy's books, for whatever reason-- already out as of 26 Feb, "Fall of the West: The Death of the Roman Superpower")
"In AD 200, the Roman Empire seemed unassailable. Its vast territory accounted for most of the known world. By the end of the fifth century, Roman rule had vanished in western Europe and much of northern Africa, and only a shrunken Eastern Empire remained. What accounts for this improbable decline? Here, Adrian Goldsworthy applies the scholarship, perspective, and narrative skill that defined his monumental Caesar to address perhaps the greatest of all historical questions—how Rome fell.
It was a period of remarkable personalities, from the philosopher-emperor Marcus Aurelius to emperors like Diocletian, who portrayed themselves as tough, even brutal, soldiers. It was a time of revolutionary ideas, especially in religion, as Christianity went from persecuted sect to the religion of state and emperors. Goldsworthy pays particular attention to the willingness of Roman soldiers to fight and kill each other. Ultimately, this is the story of how an empire without a serious rival rotted from within, its rulers and institutions putting short-term ambition and personal survival over the wider good of the state."
EDIT: Hmm, some of the touchtones aren't working... bummer.
7stellarexplorer
Thanks Feicht. I'm especially interested in the last one. Personally, I'd be willing to get the edition already out, regardless of the title variation.
8Feicht
I believe Amazon lists the UK as well as the US editions, and that explains why they'll have ostensibly the same book, but with slightly different title/cover with a different release date. Thing is, the one that comes out earlier always costs more.
Admittedly I don't know much about book publishing but it's the best explanation I can come up with, haha. I mean, I bought a version of Holland's Persian Fire in Ireland, purposely doubling up on a book I already had just so I had something to read, but I wouldn't have done it if it wasn't different enough to warrant owning two versions of the same book :-D So yeah I guess I could see how different "regions" have their own editions or whatever.
But yeah, Goldsworthy is especially weird though because it seems like every single book he's ever written has multiple versions with different titles, but its the same book. Throws me off every time I check Amazon :-D
Admittedly I don't know much about book publishing but it's the best explanation I can come up with, haha. I mean, I bought a version of Holland's Persian Fire in Ireland, purposely doubling up on a book I already had just so I had something to read, but I wouldn't have done it if it wasn't different enough to warrant owning two versions of the same book :-D So yeah I guess I could see how different "regions" have their own editions or whatever.
But yeah, Goldsworthy is especially weird though because it seems like every single book he's ever written has multiple versions with different titles, but its the same book. Throws me off every time I check Amazon :-D
9HarmlessTed
Holland's The Forge of Christendom has been available for a while under the title: Millennium: The End of the World and the Forging of Christendom.
11Feicht
Amazon just told me about another one:
Travelling Heroes: In the Epic Age of Homer by Robin Lane Fox
The eighth century B.C. was the formative age of the great epics of Homer, a remote and, in some ways, mysterious era. In this groundbreaking book, Robin Lane Fox takes us into that time before history to explore questions ranging from the origins of the Greek gods to the spread of classical culture in the Mediterranean world. It is a remarkable tour de force of scholarship and creative reasoning, written with flair and the authority gained from a lifetime of study and personal experience of key sites.
Presented as a kind of historical detective story, Travelling Heroes draws upon archaeology, ancient texts, and new discoveries to develop a fresh and provocative thesis: that migrants from in the Greek island of Euboea settled in specific places both in the Near East and in Italy and that what they found there helped shape their most distinctive myths. In fascinating detail, Lane Fox describes the journeys of the travellers and the contacts they made with Phoenicians, Assyrians, and the people of north Cyprus and Syria, and he shows the way they drew themes—and even references to particular topographic features—into what would become the classic stories of gods and legend. He also offers new insights into Homer himself.
Robin Lane Fox is probably the most widely read historian of the ancient Greek world, and Travelling Heroes displays the same lively originality that marked his writing about the Bible in The Unauthorized Version and about the triumph of Christianity in Pagans and Christians. Learned but never dry, controversial but soundly based, it brings a distant and nearly forgotten time brilliantly to life again.
=============================
Sounds promising...
Travelling Heroes: In the Epic Age of Homer by Robin Lane Fox
The eighth century B.C. was the formative age of the great epics of Homer, a remote and, in some ways, mysterious era. In this groundbreaking book, Robin Lane Fox takes us into that time before history to explore questions ranging from the origins of the Greek gods to the spread of classical culture in the Mediterranean world. It is a remarkable tour de force of scholarship and creative reasoning, written with flair and the authority gained from a lifetime of study and personal experience of key sites.
Presented as a kind of historical detective story, Travelling Heroes draws upon archaeology, ancient texts, and new discoveries to develop a fresh and provocative thesis: that migrants from in the Greek island of Euboea settled in specific places both in the Near East and in Italy and that what they found there helped shape their most distinctive myths. In fascinating detail, Lane Fox describes the journeys of the travellers and the contacts they made with Phoenicians, Assyrians, and the people of north Cyprus and Syria, and he shows the way they drew themes—and even references to particular topographic features—into what would become the classic stories of gods and legend. He also offers new insights into Homer himself.
Robin Lane Fox is probably the most widely read historian of the ancient Greek world, and Travelling Heroes displays the same lively originality that marked his writing about the Bible in The Unauthorized Version and about the triumph of Christianity in Pagans and Christians. Learned but never dry, controversial but soundly based, it brings a distant and nearly forgotten time brilliantly to life again.
=============================
Sounds promising...
12Enodia
funny... i was just reading about the Euboian colonies in Rhegium and Cumae this past weekend.
13Garp83
Feicht, I wonder how Travelling Heroes: In the Epic Age of Homer will turn out . . . I read Fox's bio of Alexander back in the 1980's and I absolutely loved it, but I was less than enthralled by his more recent The Classical World: An Epic History From Homer to Hadrian which seemed to be all over the place and not especially inspiring. It was a very long book and I finished it, so I guess it wasn't that bad, but it was no Tom Holland!
14Feicht
Dude, speaking of Tom Holland... I'm thinking that guy might be my favourite author ever. It just feels "refreshing" to read his books in my spare time as opposed to the crusty stuff I have to read for school sometimes.
I mean, even Tacitus gets me bogged down after a while, and as ancient historians go, he's pretty much the best. It's just like, if you're reading the Annals of Imperial Rome without looking for something specific, some overarching theme... it's just easy to get lost in the cavalcade of names/dates/places.
Holland, on the other hand, is like reading a novel that you "can't put down" except it's all real!
I mean, even Tacitus gets me bogged down after a while, and as ancient historians go, he's pretty much the best. It's just like, if you're reading the Annals of Imperial Rome without looking for something specific, some overarching theme... it's just easy to get lost in the cavalcade of names/dates/places.
Holland, on the other hand, is like reading a novel that you "can't put down" except it's all real!
15Garp83
I have only read Persian Fire -- one of my all time favorite history books ever -- but I will get to the rest one day. I am saving "Rubicon" for when I get into Roman history down the road.
16Feicht
Rubicon was the first of his I read, absolutely amazing. I hereby decree that you stop reading whatever you are reading now, and go out and buy a copy or two :-D
17Garp83
Well Feicht, if you insist, I don't see how I can disobey ... but I can't really abandon the other 6 books -- they would be hurt ...
;-)
;-)
18stellarexplorer
So there I have at the top of the pile Rubicon, Maps of Time and 1491, all unread. Where to go first? Flip a coin? Better idea: don't go to work until I've finished all three!
19Garp83
Read all three at the same time! I do better when I have 5 going at once. Maps of time is definitely too dense for a cover-to-cover straight read -- lots to think about, so I have read it slowly over months in order to inhale it slowly ... 1491 is a bit less complicated of a read, but a lot of material there too. If Rubicon is anything like Persian Fire then its probably a page-turner!
20Feicht
Just found another one that looks promising:
Blood In The Forum: The Struggle for the Roman Republic by Pamela Marin
In Blood in the Forum, Pamela Marin offers a fresh and illuminating perspective on the complexities of the late Republic and the rise of Octavian. The book deals with how Roman politics, the desire for personal glory, and the inadequacies of the Republican system ultimately led to Caesar's dictatorship.
Marin assigns a crucial role to Cato the Younger in the political narrative, which differs from conventional views, but allows for a clearer understanding of the allegiances of the civil war and the assassination of Caesar on the Ides of March 44 BCE. Drawing from the most recent scholarship, this engaging narrative pulls the reader into the ancient Roman world, presenting the tragedy of the Roman Republic in its true light.
Blood In The Forum: The Struggle for the Roman Republic by Pamela Marin
In Blood in the Forum, Pamela Marin offers a fresh and illuminating perspective on the complexities of the late Republic and the rise of Octavian. The book deals with how Roman politics, the desire for personal glory, and the inadequacies of the Republican system ultimately led to Caesar's dictatorship.
Marin assigns a crucial role to Cato the Younger in the political narrative, which differs from conventional views, but allows for a clearer understanding of the allegiances of the civil war and the assassination of Caesar on the Ides of March 44 BCE. Drawing from the most recent scholarship, this engaging narrative pulls the reader into the ancient Roman world, presenting the tragedy of the Roman Republic in its true light.
21Feicht
Well this isn't "history" per se but it's worth a mention for anyone who is into ancient/medieval literature:
The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun by J.R.R. Tolkien
The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún is a previously unpublished work by J.R.R. Tolkien, written while Tolkien was Professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford during the 1920s and ‘30s, before he wrote The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. It makes available for the first time Tolkien’s extensive retelling in English narrative verse of the epic Norse tales of Sigurd the Völsung and The Fall of the Niflungs. It includes an introduction by J.R.R. Tolkien, drawn from one of his own lectures on Norse literature, with commentary and notes on the poems by Christopher Tolkien.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/ref=pe_26740_11778600_as_img_10/?ASIN=054727342...
The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun by J.R.R. Tolkien
The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún is a previously unpublished work by J.R.R. Tolkien, written while Tolkien was Professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford during the 1920s and ‘30s, before he wrote The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. It makes available for the first time Tolkien’s extensive retelling in English narrative verse of the epic Norse tales of Sigurd the Völsung and The Fall of the Niflungs. It includes an introduction by J.R.R. Tolkien, drawn from one of his own lectures on Norse literature, with commentary and notes on the poems by Christopher Tolkien.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/ref=pe_26740_11778600_as_img_10/?ASIN=054727342...
22Cynara
Feicht, you're entirely right about Holland's Rubicon; his pacing is better than most of the novels I've read lately. I never felt like he was wandering off into guesswork, but it was an extraordinarily vivid historical account. He avoids both academic dryness and semi-fictionalised "Caesar flushed pale" prose.
23Garp83
Yesterday, I went to Amherst Books and came out with: "Histoires Grecques: Snapshots From Antiquity" by Maurice Sartre (in English translation). Brand new -- have not seen it anywhere before. It looks really cool -- a survey of Greek civilization from Theseus to the murder of Hypatia in 415 CE.
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/SARHIG.html
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/SARHIG.html
24Feicht
Found a new one that sounds awesome:
"Lords of the Sea: The Epic Story of the Athenian Navy and the Birth of Democracy" by John R. Hale
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067002080X/ref=pe_5050_11876500_snp_dp
The navy created by the people of Athens in ancient Greece was one of the finest fighting forces in the history of the world and the model for all other national navies to come. The Athenian navy built a civilization, empowered the world’s first democracy, and led a band of ordinary citizens on a voyage of discovery that altered the course of history. Its defeat of the Persian fleet at Salamis in 480 BCE launched the Athenian Golden Age and preserved Greek freedom and culture for centuries. With Lords of the Sea, renowned archaeologist John Hale presents, for the first time, the definitive history of the epic battles, the indomitable ships, and the men—from extraordinary leaders to seductive rogues—who established Athens’s supremacy. With a scholar’s insight and a storyteller’s flair, Hale takes us on an illustrated tour of the heroes and their turbulent careers and far-flung expeditions and brings back to light a forgotten maritime empire and its majestic legacy.
"Lords of the Sea: The Epic Story of the Athenian Navy and the Birth of Democracy" by John R. Hale
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067002080X/ref=pe_5050_11876500_snp_dp
The navy created by the people of Athens in ancient Greece was one of the finest fighting forces in the history of the world and the model for all other national navies to come. The Athenian navy built a civilization, empowered the world’s first democracy, and led a band of ordinary citizens on a voyage of discovery that altered the course of history. Its defeat of the Persian fleet at Salamis in 480 BCE launched the Athenian Golden Age and preserved Greek freedom and culture for centuries. With Lords of the Sea, renowned archaeologist John Hale presents, for the first time, the definitive history of the epic battles, the indomitable ships, and the men—from extraordinary leaders to seductive rogues—who established Athens’s supremacy. With a scholar’s insight and a storyteller’s flair, Hale takes us on an illustrated tour of the heroes and their turbulent careers and far-flung expeditions and brings back to light a forgotten maritime empire and its majestic legacy.
25Garp83
How ironic -- I am listening to this guy's Teaching Company Course right now: The greek & Persian Wars. I'm midway thru & this guy is great! I think I may add this book to my TBR
26Feicht
Well there ya go :-D
Hey speaking of that Teaching Company stuff... well, podcasts, anyway... I've been listening to this "Hardcore History" one and I love it! I have a sinking feeling the guy might have...slightly different...political views than me, but whatever; he sure knows how to tell a story.
Hey speaking of that Teaching Company stuff... well, podcasts, anyway... I've been listening to this "Hardcore History" one and I love it! I have a sinking feeling the guy might have...slightly different...political views than me, but whatever; he sure knows how to tell a story.
27stellarexplorer
>26 Feicht:
I just listened to my first one -- the guy does manage to stay interesting. I think I'll listen to more.
What I hate is on audio you want to have an easy way to back up ten or twenty seconds if you missed something or want to hear it again. I have quicktime on my computer, and there's no way to go back by a reliable amount. I end up having to go back a minute or more. I'm going to have to investigate a better way.
I just listened to my first one -- the guy does manage to stay interesting. I think I'll listen to more.
What I hate is on audio you want to have an easy way to back up ten or twenty seconds if you missed something or want to hear it again. I have quicktime on my computer, and there's no way to go back by a reliable amount. I end up having to go back a minute or more. I'm going to have to investigate a better way.
28Feicht
Like a portable mp3 player? :-D
Actually mine is a pain in the ass because for some reason whenever I download podcasts, and want to store them in a regular folder with the music and whatnot, like half of the tracks go where they're supposed to, and the other half create their own folder in the "podcast" section of my player, no matter what I do. It is frustrating, to say the least. But I digress ;-)
Actually mine is a pain in the ass because for some reason whenever I download podcasts, and want to store them in a regular folder with the music and whatnot, like half of the tracks go where they're supposed to, and the other half create their own folder in the "podcast" section of my player, no matter what I do. It is frustrating, to say the least. But I digress ;-)
29stellarexplorer
No. I have never had a need of such a player. I listen to audio only in my car (in which case it's books on tape or Teaching Co or other lectures) or on my computer. Anywhere else, I will read an actual book.
No, that's wrong. I will play CD's on my audio system too.
Perhaps I am still living in a world of stone knives and bearskins.
No, that's wrong. I will play CD's on my audio system too.
Perhaps I am still living in a world of stone knives and bearskins.
30Feicht
Well I thought I was the last person in the western world to get one, so I guess not :-D
I don't have a car stereo, and I listen to music on walks, bike, etc... definitely more convenient than the dark ages of "portable" cd players and whatnot
I don't have a car stereo, and I listen to music on walks, bike, etc... definitely more convenient than the dark ages of "portable" cd players and whatnot
31stellarexplorer
For cycling, I have a thing about wanting to hear the actual crunch of metal on metal, just before the speeding car barrels into me.
Change that to "I want to remain alert to danger when riding."
Change that to "I want to remain alert to danger when riding."
32Feicht
Haha... I dunno... beforehand I thought it would be the most dangerous thing imaginable, but I mean unless you have the volume up unnecessarily loud, you can still hear "the outside world" :-)
33Garp83
Yeah, I had a car for a few months with a broken radio & I used to listen to my MP3 player with headphones while I was driving and I could hear the outside world quite well, surprisingly enough
34Feicht
Though now that I think of it, years of heavy metal fandom has given me the hearing of a 90 year old man anyway, so I probably shouldn't be allowed to operate heavy machinery in the first place haha
CURSE YOU, ROB HALFORD!!!!1!11!
CURSE YOU, ROB HALFORD!!!!1!11!
35Feicht
...And another:
The End of Empire: Attila the Hun and the Fall of Rome by Christopher Kelly
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393061965/ref=pe_5050_12045140_snp_dp
A bold new account of Attila the Hun as empire builder and political threat to Rome. Conjuring up images of savagery and ferocity, Attila the Hun has become a byword for barbarianism. But, as the Romans of the fifth century knew, Attila did more than just terrorize villages on the edge of an empire.
Drawing on original texts, this riveting narrative follows Attila and the Huns from the steppes of Kazakhstan to the opulent city of Constantinople and the Great Hungarian Plain, uncovering an unlikely marriage proposal, a long-standing relationship with a treacherously ambitious Roman general, and a thwarted Roman assassination plot. Attila the Hun and the Fall of Rome reframes the warrior king as a political strategist, capturing the story of how a small, but dedicated, opponent dealt a seemingly invincible empire defeats from which it would never recover.
3 maps; 40 illustrations
The End of Empire: Attila the Hun and the Fall of Rome by Christopher Kelly
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393061965/ref=pe_5050_12045140_snp_dp
A bold new account of Attila the Hun as empire builder and political threat to Rome. Conjuring up images of savagery and ferocity, Attila the Hun has become a byword for barbarianism. But, as the Romans of the fifth century knew, Attila did more than just terrorize villages on the edge of an empire.
Drawing on original texts, this riveting narrative follows Attila and the Huns from the steppes of Kazakhstan to the opulent city of Constantinople and the Great Hungarian Plain, uncovering an unlikely marriage proposal, a long-standing relationship with a treacherously ambitious Roman general, and a thwarted Roman assassination plot. Attila the Hun and the Fall of Rome reframes the warrior king as a political strategist, capturing the story of how a small, but dedicated, opponent dealt a seemingly invincible empire defeats from which it would never recover.
3 maps; 40 illustrations
36Essa
I've just seen this title at work and thought it might be of interest here.
A World History of Ancient Political Thought, by Antony Black.
"This book examines the political thought of China, Greece, Israel, Rome, India, Iran, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and also early Christianity, from prehistory to c. 200 CE. Each of these had its own priorities, based on a religious and philosophical perspective. This led to different ideas about who should govern, how to govern, and what government was for .... This book covers political philosophy, religious ideology, constitutional theory, social ethics, official and popular political culture."
A World History of Ancient Political Thought, by Antony Black.
"This book examines the political thought of China, Greece, Israel, Rome, India, Iran, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and also early Christianity, from prehistory to c. 200 CE. Each of these had its own priorities, based on a religious and philosophical perspective. This led to different ideas about who should govern, how to govern, and what government was for .... This book covers political philosophy, religious ideology, constitutional theory, social ethics, official and popular political culture."
38Essa
Another title I saw at work, again potentially of interest here. (Link points to Amazon.com rather than a touchstone, as there is no LT touchstone as of yet.)
Roman Passions: A History of Pleasure in Imperial Rome, by Ray Laurence.
Roman Passions: A History of Pleasure in Imperial Rome, by Ray Laurence.
39rcss67
I dont know, i keep on reading tom holland look for the references. he seems to know what people think but no footnotes to see how he came to that conclusion. has too many years of studying history at university made me unable to read popular history again????
40walf6
>39 rcss67: That does affect any author's credibility, do doubt about it.
42Garp83
My copy of Persian Fire has a thick sheaf of notes at the end of the text. What edition do you have?
44Enodia
publishers please take note;
footnotes belong at the bottom of the relevent page, NOT at the end of the book where they are awkward to get at.
thank you for your time.
footnotes belong at the bottom of the relevent page, NOT at the end of the book where they are awkward to get at.
thank you for your time.
45Garp83
With all due respect my good friend Enodia, I disagree. Footnotes on the bottom are small-print and awkward and often sprawl from one page to another. It may be a bit inconvenient to get to the back of the book, but it makes for a better narrative flow, unless the note is an essential addendum to the text.
David Foster Wallace may have been a genius, but his obsession with footnotes really turned me off to his writing.
In scholarly writing, I realize we need to expect footnotes at the bottom, but one of the issues with scholarly writing is that it is often so dull and poorly written that the footnotes are a welcome distraction.
David Foster Wallace may have been a genius, but his obsession with footnotes really turned me off to his writing.
In scholarly writing, I realize we need to expect footnotes at the bottom, but one of the issues with scholarly writing is that it is often so dull and poorly written that the footnotes are a welcome distraction.
46cemanuel
I prefer footnotes. I've learned to live with endnotes - I just need to stick an extra bookmark where the notes are and while it's a pain, I can at least flip back to them fairly quickly and not lose the narrative too badly.
I consider abbreviated endnotes to be a perversion of all that is good and holy.
I consider abbreviated endnotes to be a perversion of all that is good and holy.
47stellarexplorer
"David Foster Wallace may have been a genius, but his obsession with footnotes really turned me off to his writing."
You insult the master?! I'd be offended, except he wouldn't mind. In fact he often said he did it precisely in order to interrupt the narrative flow:
(They) "allow . . . me to make the primary-text an easier read while at once 1) allowing a discursive, authorial intrusive style w/o Finneganizing the story, 2) mimic the information-flood and data-triage I expect’d be an even bigger part of US life 15 years hence. 3) have a lot more technical/medical verisimilitude 4) allow/make the reader go literally physically ‘back and forth’ in a way that perhaps cutely mimics some of the story’s thematic concerns . . . 5) feel emotionally like I’m satisfying your request for compression of text without sacrificing enormous amounts of stuff.”
Not liking my history so fractured, I prefer footnotes to endnotes. But not in fiction. There I'd rather let the author do whatever (s)he wants.
You insult the master?! I'd be offended, except he wouldn't mind. In fact he often said he did it precisely in order to interrupt the narrative flow:
(They) "allow . . . me to make the primary-text an easier read while at once 1) allowing a discursive, authorial intrusive style w/o Finneganizing the story, 2) mimic the information-flood and data-triage I expect’d be an even bigger part of US life 15 years hence. 3) have a lot more technical/medical verisimilitude 4) allow/make the reader go literally physically ‘back and forth’ in a way that perhaps cutely mimics some of the story’s thematic concerns . . . 5) feel emotionally like I’m satisfying your request for compression of text without sacrificing enormous amounts of stuff.”
Not liking my history so fractured, I prefer footnotes to endnotes. But not in fiction. There I'd rather let the author do whatever (s)he wants.
48Nicole_VanK
> 43 - 46: In general I prefer footnotes to be just that - footnotes not endnotes. But with certain authors - Erwin Panofsky springs to mind - you sometimes get two or three lines of actual text with several pages of "footnotes" smack in the middle of your book. Not nice at all. Even though he lived out the most productive time of his life in the US, he essentially always remained an old school German scholar. What can you do...
49Feicht
To me it doesn't matter which format they are, as long as they're there. Footnotes are cool, but if they're really long it's just easier for them to be at the back as endnotes.
50Mr.Durick
I always like references in texts (in line). I thought I might like discursive footnotes at the foot and specialist footnotes (long chains of references, for example) at the end.
In recent reading, namely How to Read the Bible, I found the division of footnotes, although not quite as I just suggested, left me ignoring the substantive notes at the back. Reading Indo-European Myth and Religion in light of that I'm finding that, annoying as it is to leave the narrative for a reference at the bottom of the page, I can do it without using full attention (dismiss it when I see all italics and numbers) and with turning on full attention when the footnote has content.
So the ideal for me is: references in line and footnotes at the foot.
Robert
In recent reading, namely How to Read the Bible, I found the division of footnotes, although not quite as I just suggested, left me ignoring the substantive notes at the back. Reading Indo-European Myth and Religion in light of that I'm finding that, annoying as it is to leave the narrative for a reference at the bottom of the page, I can do it without using full attention (dismiss it when I see all italics and numbers) and with turning on full attention when the footnote has content.
So the ideal for me is: references in line and footnotes at the foot.
Robert
51Enodia
yep, ideally i'm with you Robert.
i don't like really extended footnotes that interrupt the flow of the read, but turning pages to endnotes does that anyway.
but i have to agree with Feicht too... the bottom line is they MUST be there somewhere or i can't take the reference seriously, so endnotes are better than no notes.
i don't like really extended footnotes that interrupt the flow of the read, but turning pages to endnotes does that anyway.
but i have to agree with Feicht too... the bottom line is they MUST be there somewhere or i can't take the reference seriously, so endnotes are better than no notes.
52stellarexplorer
>50 Mr.Durick:
I'd be more likely to read the Bible if God had provided written footnotes.
I'd be more likely to read the Bible if God had provided written footnotes.
53Feicht
Hahahaha
ZING!!!
I'd settle for a turn and wink at the audience after the first instance of one story which contradicts another one :-D
ZING!!!
I'd settle for a turn and wink at the audience after the first instance of one story which contradicts another one :-D
54Garp83
#52 Stellar -- ROTFL
Interestingly, te best compromise I've seen is the hardcover The Landmark Herodotus that I just bought: oversize with "footnotes" in the margin and at the bottom so there's plenty of room, the notes are easy to reference, and they're right there for you.
In reflection on my earlier comment, I will have to modify a bit. I suppose if the note is a "source" note I don't care where it is, but if it is an actually elucidation on the text I think it has to be on the same page. So maybe I'm contradicting myself?
Interestingly, te best compromise I've seen is the hardcover The Landmark Herodotus that I just bought: oversize with "footnotes" in the margin and at the bottom so there's plenty of room, the notes are easy to reference, and they're right there for you.
In reflection on my earlier comment, I will have to modify a bit. I suppose if the note is a "source" note I don't care where it is, but if it is an actually elucidation on the text I think it has to be on the same page. So maybe I'm contradicting myself?
55ThePam
I recently read The Secret Holocaust Diaries: The Untold Story of Nonna Bannister, a book that borders on being a hagiography (suitably for the YA crowd).
It was interesting because the notes were indented and in italics between paragraphs. I thought it was an interesting approach, and I thought it worked well because these were mostly notes that clarified what was going on in the narrative -- although apparently it annoyed some reader/reviewers.
It was interesting because the notes were indented and in italics between paragraphs. I thought it was an interesting approach, and I thought it worked well because these were mostly notes that clarified what was going on in the narrative -- although apparently it annoyed some reader/reviewers.
56walf6
Oh, I think I'd like that technique very much. Looking at the notes, the eyes are never far from the material they are enhancing, and it breaks things up a bit when one wants to come back to find something.
57Feicht
I don't know; the very nature of footnotes is that they break up the narrative flow.... that's why they're in the footnotes and not the actual text! But I still like them. Books like Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and lots of the Loeb Classical Library books have great footnotes that are more than just a reference, they actually discuss key points or problems in/with the text. I love it. Today I read Tacitus' Germania in one sitting and all the added footnotes with detail on the peoples that Tacitus couldn't have known was amazing. :-)
58ElenaGwynne
I don't mind footnotes or endnotes (the latter are why we created the bookmark). However, for endnotes, they really must be marked somehow. Too often I've seen books where the endnotes are there but organized by page number, making it difficult to determine what note goes with what.
Going back to the original topic, there's a book I've seen in the stores lately that looks interesting:
The Inheritance of Rome: A History of Europe From 400 to 1000 by Chris Wickham
The blurb is (Amazon.com):
Prizewinning historian Chris Wickham defies the conventional view of the Dark Ages in European history with a work of remarkable scope and rigorous yet accessible scholarship. Drawing on a wealth of new material and featuring a thoughtful synthesis of historical and archaeological approaches, Wickham argues that these centuries were critical in the formulation of European identity. Far from being a middle period between more significant epochs, this age has much to tell us in its own right about the progress of culture and the development of political thought.
Sweeping in its breadth, Wickham’s incisive history focuses on a world still profoundly shaped by Rome, which encompassed the remarkable Byzantine, Carolingian, and Ottonian empires, and peoples ranging from Goths, Franks, and Vandals to Arabs, Anglo- Saxons, and Vikings. Digging deep into each culture, Wickham constructs a vivid portrait of a vast and varied world stretching from Ireland to Constantinople, the Baltic to the Mediterranean. The Inheritance of Rome brilliantly presents a fresh understanding of the crucible in which Europe would ultimately be created.
The book is already available in stores in Canada, btw if you can't wait.
Going back to the original topic, there's a book I've seen in the stores lately that looks interesting:
The Inheritance of Rome: A History of Europe From 400 to 1000 by Chris Wickham
The blurb is (Amazon.com):
Prizewinning historian Chris Wickham defies the conventional view of the Dark Ages in European history with a work of remarkable scope and rigorous yet accessible scholarship. Drawing on a wealth of new material and featuring a thoughtful synthesis of historical and archaeological approaches, Wickham argues that these centuries were critical in the formulation of European identity. Far from being a middle period between more significant epochs, this age has much to tell us in its own right about the progress of culture and the development of political thought.
Sweeping in its breadth, Wickham’s incisive history focuses on a world still profoundly shaped by Rome, which encompassed the remarkable Byzantine, Carolingian, and Ottonian empires, and peoples ranging from Goths, Franks, and Vandals to Arabs, Anglo- Saxons, and Vikings. Digging deep into each culture, Wickham constructs a vivid portrait of a vast and varied world stretching from Ireland to Constantinople, the Baltic to the Mediterranean. The Inheritance of Rome brilliantly presents a fresh understanding of the crucible in which Europe would ultimately be created.
The book is already available in stores in Canada, btw if you can't wait.
60cemanuel
#58 - I've been told that book is an adaptation of his Framing the Early Middle Ages where he took the material from the earlier book and put it into more of a narrative format. If it is, it should be good. Framing contains an amazing amount of information.
61ElenaGwynne
It looks really good. I've been poking at it in the store for the last week or so.
62cemanuel
New Irish source translation. Not ancient but some people may be interested.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0528/1224247592871.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0528/1224247592871.html
63ThePam
You know, we might be able to write the publisher and get a group rate for the book if enough of us order it. I don't know if the offset would be enough to cover the additional mailing costs. Anyone know?
64ElenaGwynne
Saw another interesting looking new book today:
Why Socrates Died by Robin Waterfield.
According to the indigo.ca website, the book came out just a couple of days ago.
Why Socrates Died by Robin Waterfield.
According to the indigo.ca website, the book came out just a couple of days ago.
65Essa
The Ancient Egyptian State: The Origins of Egyptian Culture (c. 8000-2000 BC), by Robert J. Wenke. (Title touchstone doesn't route correctly.)
Ethnicity and Foreigners in Ancient Greece and China, by Hyun Jin Kim. (No touchstones. Title is not out yet in the U.S.)
Edit to oust the overly aggressive Italics.
Ethnicity and Foreigners in Ancient Greece and China, by Hyun Jin Kim. (No touchstones. Title is not out yet in the U.S.)
Edit to oust the overly aggressive Italics.
67ElenaGwynne
I just finished another relatively new book on ancient (and a bit of medieval) history that I thought was quite good: Adrienne Mayor's Greek Fire, Poison Arrows and Scorpion Bombs.
It certainly is making me rethink some of my beliefs (and what I'd been taught) about ancient history.
It certainly is making me rethink some of my beliefs (and what I'd been taught) about ancient history.
69ElenaGwynne
Actually, I'm not sure if I think the scorpion bomb or the incident with catapulted jugs of vipers and other poisonous snakes is worse mentally.
There were plenty of other nasty inventions discussed as well.
There were plenty of other nasty inventions discussed as well.
70cemanuel
Actually, I'm not sure if I think the scorpion bomb or the incident with catapulted jugs of vipers and other poisonous snakes is worse mentally.
I though the dead critters into the wells were the worst for some reason.
I though the dead critters into the wells were the worst for some reason.
71walf6
I continue to be floored by the number and variety of ways that people find to cause each other grief and death.
73Rood
Here are a couple of new, slightly erotic books with information about them from the authors, themselves: just arrived at H-Histsex ... two cover the 17th and 18th centuries, and one Horace's Rome.
From: Julie Peakman mailto:juliepeakman@btinternet.com
Sent: Thu 18/06/2009 10:33
Subject: Re: What should we be reading this summer?
Thank you, Dan, for inviting authors to suggest their own works. I will
therefore immodestly suggest my own book 'Lascivious Bodies. A Sexual
History of C18th' for an easy introduction to sex in the C18th: it includes
courtship, marriage, prostitution, same-sex relationships, cross-dressing,
and sexual perversions.
Another suggestion for the summer (for other scholars) is my edition of
scholars new essays:
Sexual Perversions, 1680-1890 (Palgrave, due August 2009) covering
paedolphilia, sodomy, traibadism, S&M, necrophilia, bestiality, etc.
I am also interested in hearing about any new books and articles out on
sexuality (any period from ancient to C21st) 2007-9, and when they come out,
so authors, please do let us know.
best wishes
Julie Peakman
School of History, Classics & Archaeology
Birkbeck, University of London
Malet Street, Bloomsbury
London WC1E 7HX
And a second
From: Yvan Nadeau mailto:yvannadeau@btinternet.com
Sent: Thu 18/06/2009 9:24
Subject: Re: What should we be reading this summer?
I am not sure that the list will be in interested in this: I have
recently had published a book about the erotic poetry of Horace, entitled:
Yvan NADEAU, / "Erotica for Caesar Augustus - A study of the love-poetry
of Horace, /carmina/, Books I to III"/ /, /Éditions Latomus, Bruxelles
2008,
I am no expert in sexuality as an -ism, but I write about and probe what
is being said about sex at a particular time in a particular political
climate; who the women are who are being written about; are they
"professionals" (hetairai) or are they women of good family? who are the
boys who are the subject of the paederastic poems: where do they fit
into Roman life of the time of Augustus? or are they pure literary
fiction? How does Horace's treatment of those erotic themes fit into (a)
the aristocratic society of Augustus' time (b) Augustus' attempts at
moral-sexual reform of Roman society by legislation? I am interested in
the relation between this love-poetry and the discourse of Roman Elegy.
If list readers find this interesting, I would be pleased, and pleased
too to have their reactions (on or off list) if they do read the book.
yn
Yvan Nadeau
yvannadeau@btinternet.com
3/13 Forrest Hill
EDINBURGH EH1 2QL
0131-225-8240
http://www.shca.ed.ac.uk/staff/hon_fellows/ynadeau/index.html
Healey D. wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> As Fran Bernstein has recently mentioned her own book - and discussed its contents, too modestly in my view - in the threads on course syllabi, I thought I would mention that the list is always happy to hear from authors and editors of list-relevant new books about their work. We don't post publishers' blurbs: we want to hear from the author(s), and generate onlist discussion.
>
> If you have recently published a book or significant work, 1400 people on this list may want to read your work, and a reflective or provocative statement from you about your publication on H-Histsex is welcome. What should we be reading this summer?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dan Healey
> H-Histsex co-editor
From: Julie Peakman mailto:juliepeakman@btinternet.com
Sent: Thu 18/06/2009 10:33
Subject: Re: What should we be reading this summer?
Thank you, Dan, for inviting authors to suggest their own works. I will
therefore immodestly suggest my own book 'Lascivious Bodies. A Sexual
History of C18th' for an easy introduction to sex in the C18th: it includes
courtship, marriage, prostitution, same-sex relationships, cross-dressing,
and sexual perversions.
Another suggestion for the summer (for other scholars) is my edition of
scholars new essays:
Sexual Perversions, 1680-1890 (Palgrave, due August 2009) covering
paedolphilia, sodomy, traibadism, S&M, necrophilia, bestiality, etc.
I am also interested in hearing about any new books and articles out on
sexuality (any period from ancient to C21st) 2007-9, and when they come out,
so authors, please do let us know.
best wishes
Julie Peakman
School of History, Classics & Archaeology
Birkbeck, University of London
Malet Street, Bloomsbury
London WC1E 7HX
And a second
From: Yvan Nadeau mailto:yvannadeau@btinternet.com
Sent: Thu 18/06/2009 9:24
Subject: Re: What should we be reading this summer?
I am not sure that the list will be in interested in this: I have
recently had published a book about the erotic poetry of Horace, entitled:
Yvan NADEAU, / "Erotica for Caesar Augustus - A study of the love-poetry
of Horace, /carmina/, Books I to III"/ /, /Éditions Latomus, Bruxelles
2008,
I am no expert in sexuality as an -ism, but I write about and probe what
is being said about sex at a particular time in a particular political
climate; who the women are who are being written about; are they
"professionals" (hetairai) or are they women of good family? who are the
boys who are the subject of the paederastic poems: where do they fit
into Roman life of the time of Augustus? or are they pure literary
fiction? How does Horace's treatment of those erotic themes fit into (a)
the aristocratic society of Augustus' time (b) Augustus' attempts at
moral-sexual reform of Roman society by legislation? I am interested in
the relation between this love-poetry and the discourse of Roman Elegy.
If list readers find this interesting, I would be pleased, and pleased
too to have their reactions (on or off list) if they do read the book.
yn
Yvan Nadeau
yvannadeau@btinternet.com
3/13 Forrest Hill
EDINBURGH EH1 2QL
0131-225-8240
http://www.shca.ed.ac.uk/staff/hon_fellows/ynadeau/index.html
Healey D. wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> As Fran Bernstein has recently mentioned her own book - and discussed its contents, too modestly in my view - in the threads on course syllabi, I thought I would mention that the list is always happy to hear from authors and editors of list-relevant new books about their work. We don't post publishers' blurbs: we want to hear from the author(s), and generate onlist discussion.
>
> If you have recently published a book or significant work, 1400 people on this list may want to read your work, and a reflective or provocative statement from you about your publication on H-Histsex is welcome. What should we be reading this summer?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dan Healey
> H-Histsex co-editor
74Feicht
If anyone's into the Osprey series of books, this might be of interest:
Roman Military Dress by Graham Sumner
Despite the great interest in the Roman Army, particularly in the many re-enactment societies, up until now it has been surprisingly difficult to find out information about the uniforms they wore and the textiles that were used in those uniforms. Graham Sumner’s book redresses this balance, presenting in an informative and accessible way the evidence for the types of clothing utilized by the Roman soldier. With full scale color illustrations drawn by the author, who is an experienced historical illustrator, along with patterns and diagrams of clothing finds and information on the latest archaeological studies, this book provides a comprehensive insight into the development of the Roman soldier’s uniform from the Late Republic to the advent of the Byzantine Empire.
Yeah, I'll be picking this one up... hehehe
Oh and it's over 200 pages, so it's not just like a puny Osprey guide; it looks like an actual "book" book :-D
Roman Military Dress by Graham Sumner
Despite the great interest in the Roman Army, particularly in the many re-enactment societies, up until now it has been surprisingly difficult to find out information about the uniforms they wore and the textiles that were used in those uniforms. Graham Sumner’s book redresses this balance, presenting in an informative and accessible way the evidence for the types of clothing utilized by the Roman soldier. With full scale color illustrations drawn by the author, who is an experienced historical illustrator, along with patterns and diagrams of clothing finds and information on the latest archaeological studies, this book provides a comprehensive insight into the development of the Roman soldier’s uniform from the Late Republic to the advent of the Byzantine Empire.
Yeah, I'll be picking this one up... hehehe
Oh and it's over 200 pages, so it's not just like a puny Osprey guide; it looks like an actual "book" book :-D
75Essa
That looks like a wonderful gift for a Roman re-enactor friend of mine. :)
Here is a title I ran across at work, which may be of interest to some: Rhetoric and Centers of Power in the Greco-Roman World: From Homer to the Fall of Rome, by John Edward Tapia. (No touchstones.)
Edited to add another:
Recapturing a Homeric Legacy: Images and Insights from the Venetus A Manuscript of the Iliad. Edited by Case Dué. Publisher, Center for Hellenic Studies (Harvard University). (No touchstones.)
Here is a title I ran across at work, which may be of interest to some: Rhetoric and Centers of Power in the Greco-Roman World: From Homer to the Fall of Rome, by John Edward Tapia. (No touchstones.)
Edited to add another:
Recapturing a Homeric Legacy: Images and Insights from the Venetus A Manuscript of the Iliad. Edited by Case Dué. Publisher, Center for Hellenic Studies (Harvard University). (No touchstones.)
76rcss67
Re Holland and footnotes/endnotes. sure he has a FEW and I mean a few at the end of the book, but i just randomly opened Rubicon to page 209, where it dealt with the end of the Catiline Conspiracy, and not a reference to be seen. From page 207-213, pages buirsting with description, not a single reference. I cant imagine Ronald Syme or Fergus Millar or A B Bosworth, ancient historians of the top shelf, going a paragraph without a reference, let alone about 5 and a halfpages!
77Feicht
Yeah but there's also a reason Rubicon is fun to read, while reading Syme is like reading a 300 page technical description on how to wax your bathroom floor, with passing mention of every human being who has ever waxed a floor interrupting the flow of said description every 2 paragraphs. :-D
78Essa
Roman Southwark settlement and economy: Excavations in Southwark, 1973-91. Carrie Cowan, et al. London : Museum of London Archaeology, 2009. (No touchstone yet, so I made a link to Amazon.com.)
80Essa
Suthuck? Isn't that one of Lovecraft's globulous, menacing monsters? :D
(Is that actually how the natives pronounce the area's name? Along the lines of "WOOST-uh"/Worcester?)
(Is that actually how the natives pronounce the area's name? Along the lines of "WOOST-uh"/Worcester?)
82ElenaGwynne
Any opinions on the book Legionary by Philip Matyszak?
At any rate, it looks to be pretty new. I hadn't seen it in stores before the last month.
At any rate, it looks to be pretty new. I hadn't seen it in stores before the last month.
83Feicht
Yeah Essa... I had no idea when they were talking about "SUTH-uck" Cathedral that they were thinking about the same thing I was, until my guided tour was standing right in front of it and I put 2 and 2 together, haha :-D
Mind you I guess we Americans should be used to this kind of thing, since the English founded so many of our towns, named after their bafflingly pronounced ones... you mentioned "WUSS-tah" already... and of course there's "POTS-muth", "NAW-fukk" (a personal fave), "PLIM-uth"..... the list goes on ;-)
Mind you I guess we Americans should be used to this kind of thing, since the English founded so many of our towns, named after their bafflingly pronounced ones... you mentioned "WUSS-tah" already... and of course there's "POTS-muth", "NAW-fukk" (a personal fave), "PLIM-uth"..... the list goes on ;-)
85Feicht
Good question... I know where the "-cester" comes from, but not sure what the linguistic reason is for the different pronunciation.
86Essa
And another: Asceticism in the Graceo-Roman World, by Richard Finn. Published by Cambridge University Press, in the "Key Themes in Ancient History" series. (No touchstone yet, as book is not yet published.)
Edited to remove link to Amazon.com -- I don't work for Amazon (or Cambridge, or etc.) and don't want people to think I am marketing or spamming or something. I just thought the title might be of interest to some of the readers here.
Edited to remove link to Amazon.com -- I don't work for Amazon (or Cambridge, or etc.) and don't want people to think I am marketing or spamming or something. I just thought the title might be of interest to some of the readers here.
87Cynara
>77 Feicht:
Feicht, you're hilarious.
Feicht, you're hilarious.
88Essa
Inside the City in the Greek World: Studies of Urbanism from the Bronze Age to the Hellenistic Period, ed. by Sara Owen and Laura Preston. Published by Oxbow Books. (No touchstone yet.)
89Essa
Two more (no title or author touchstones yet):
Greek Painting Techniques and Materials: From the Fourth to the First Century BC, by Ioanna Kakoulli. Archetype Publications.
Pliny's Women: Constructing Virtue and Creating Identity in the Roman World, by Jacqueline M. Carlon. Cambridge University Press.
Greek Painting Techniques and Materials: From the Fourth to the First Century BC, by Ioanna Kakoulli. Archetype Publications.
Pliny's Women: Constructing Virtue and Creating Identity in the Roman World, by Jacqueline M. Carlon. Cambridge University Press.
90Nicole_VanK
Thanks Essa, they sound fascinating.
91Essa
If anyone enjoys archaeological study, this may be of interest: Cambourne New Settlement: Iron Age and Romano-British Settlement on the Clay Uplands of West Cambridgeshire. (Wessex Archaeology Report No. 23). ISBN 9781874350491.
Edited to add: It contains information from prehistoric, Saxon and medieval periods as well.
Edited to add: It contains information from prehistoric, Saxon and medieval periods as well.
93Essa
More. I'm hoping all these are not annoying. :-/ It's just that I see so many interesting new/pre-pub titles here at work, and wish to pass them on to others here (just as I myself have been apprised of great books by the kind people on LT).
Function and Ethnicity: 'Bathtubs' from Late Bronze Age Cyprus, by David Collard. Oxbow Books.
The Splendor of Roman Wall Painting, by Umberto Pappalardo. J. Paul Getty Museum. (Abridged, more affordable version of the 2004 Domus: Wall Painting in the Roman House.)
Settlement and History in Hellenistic, Roman, and Byzantine Galilee: An Archaeological Survey of the Eastern Galilee, by Uzi Leibner. Mohr Siebeck.
Function and Ethnicity: 'Bathtubs' from Late Bronze Age Cyprus, by David Collard. Oxbow Books.
The Splendor of Roman Wall Painting, by Umberto Pappalardo. J. Paul Getty Museum. (Abridged, more affordable version of the 2004 Domus: Wall Painting in the Roman House.)
Settlement and History in Hellenistic, Roman, and Byzantine Galilee: An Archaeological Survey of the Eastern Galilee, by Uzi Leibner. Mohr Siebeck.
94stellarexplorer
Not annoying in the least. Keep 'em coming!
95ElenaGwynne
Yes, please keep them coming. You're making me dream along the lines of "if only I had an unlimited budget and unlimited wall space..."
97deslni01
>34 Feicht: "years of heavy metal fandom has given me the hearing of a 90 year old man anyway"
Please tell me it's good metal you're listening to - Megadeth, Metallica or Pantera (if thrash)...or at least Judas Priest, Iron Maiden or Sabbath...!
What are your thoughts on symphonic metal viz., Kamelot, Epica, Nightwish?
Please tell me it's good metal you're listening to - Megadeth, Metallica or Pantera (if thrash)...or at least Judas Priest, Iron Maiden or Sabbath...!
What are your thoughts on symphonic metal viz., Kamelot, Epica, Nightwish?
98Essa
> 97 Well, he did mention Rob Halford, so presumably Judas Priest was part of his metallic diet at some point. :) And lovers of both metal and early music ought not to miss the beautiful album Sabbatum, by the Estonian early-music group Rondellus -- a collection of Black Sabbath tunes translated into Latin and sung in early medieval fashion. Not only cool, but actually very beautiful too.
Oh, and a new book: Politics and Society in Imperial Rome, by Aloys Winterling. Wiley-Blackwell.
Oh, and a new book: Politics and Society in Imperial Rome, by Aloys Winterling. Wiley-Blackwell.
99Essa
Newly out and/or upcoming. :)
Popular Culture in Ancient Rome, by Jerry Toner. Polity Press.
The Archaeology of Lydia, from Gyges to Alexander, by Christopher H. Roosevelt. Cambridge University Press.
Popular Culture in Ancient Rome, by Jerry Toner. Polity Press.
The Archaeology of Lydia, from Gyges to Alexander, by Christopher H. Roosevelt. Cambridge University Press.
100Feicht
Haha yeah Delsni and Essa.... "good metal" :-)
Admittedly I listen to all kinds, so some of it might not be your cup of tea, but I generally can't stand a lot of the new stuff from America in the 90s and whatnot. Right now my favourite type at the moment is "folk metal", European bands like Moonsorrow, Vintersorg, Manegarm, Ulver, etc. But yeah everything from Priest and Maiden (and Sabbath, though I really feel the Ozzy years get too much emphasis by "posers" these days), to Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, to Amon Amarth, Emperor, Opeth... you name it :-)
But like I say, I can't stand any of the utter garbage that was popular in the late nineties and maybe even is today, but I'm not in highschool anymore so I don't have much of a grip on what's "cool" these days ;-) But hell, none of the music I listen to was "cool" then either, so whatever!
Oh and to be fair, I also listen to classical and folk as well :-D
Admittedly I listen to all kinds, so some of it might not be your cup of tea, but I generally can't stand a lot of the new stuff from America in the 90s and whatnot. Right now my favourite type at the moment is "folk metal", European bands like Moonsorrow, Vintersorg, Manegarm, Ulver, etc. But yeah everything from Priest and Maiden (and Sabbath, though I really feel the Ozzy years get too much emphasis by "posers" these days), to Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, to Amon Amarth, Emperor, Opeth... you name it :-)
But like I say, I can't stand any of the utter garbage that was popular in the late nineties and maybe even is today, but I'm not in highschool anymore so I don't have much of a grip on what's "cool" these days ;-) But hell, none of the music I listen to was "cool" then either, so whatever!
Oh and to be fair, I also listen to classical and folk as well :-D
102Feicht
Of course I would :-)
(Good thing I don't have a pic of me in the tour shirt on my laptop, or my smartass quotient would be going through the roof right now :-D )
(Good thing I don't have a pic of me in the tour shirt on my laptop, or my smartass quotient would be going through the roof right now :-D )
103Essa
A few more:
The Villanovan, Etruscan, and Hellenistic Collections in the Detroit Institute of Arts, by David A. Caccioli. Brill.
Symbols of Wealth and Power: Architectural Terracotta Decoration in Etruria and Central Italy, 640-510 B.C., by Nancy A. Winter. University of Michigan Press.
The Scroll and the Marble: Studies in Reading and Reception in Hellenistic Poetry, by Peter Bing. University of Michigan Press.
The Villanovan, Etruscan, and Hellenistic Collections in the Detroit Institute of Arts, by David A. Caccioli. Brill.
Symbols of Wealth and Power: Architectural Terracotta Decoration in Etruria and Central Italy, 640-510 B.C., by Nancy A. Winter. University of Michigan Press.
The Scroll and the Marble: Studies in Reading and Reception in Hellenistic Poetry, by Peter Bing. University of Michigan Press.
104Garp83
Feicht -- I hate metal. All metal. And I hate rap. And I especially hate country which I am convinced causes a brain damage so severe that country listeners are unable to perceive it. But I love your comments and your journal blog and all that is Feicht for good and ill so keep posting, man. You are entertainment!
105Essa
More new/upcoming Greco-Roman goodness:
Greek Tyranny, by Sian Lewis. Bristol Phoenix Press.
Greek Sacred Law: A Collection of New Documents (NGSL 2). 2nd edition with a postscript, by Eran Lupu. Brill.
Roman Philosophy and the Good Life, by Raymond A. Beilliotti. Lexington Books.
Greek Tyranny, by Sian Lewis. Bristol Phoenix Press.
Greek Sacred Law: A Collection of New Documents (NGSL 2). 2nd edition with a postscript, by Eran Lupu. Brill.
Roman Philosophy and the Good Life, by Raymond A. Beilliotti. Lexington Books.
107Feicht
Garp you old fuddy duddy :-P
hahaha
For what it's worth, I hate rap too. Except for that "Big Butts" song. That's just gold :-D
hahaha
For what it's worth, I hate rap too. Except for that "Big Butts" song. That's just gold :-D
110ThePam
(humorous?) New book: The Ascent of Man by Richard Guy
Bronx, NY - Aug 10, 2009 - Announcing the release of a fascinating new book.
This book will forever alter your perspective on the history of ancient civilizations. The
author gives amazing insights into, how and why, all ancient civilizations evolved in high
mountain regions around the world.
We have perhaps never given any thought to this fact. This is because historians were
never aware of a mysterious historical anomaly. As a result we have all been mislead
about the development of ancient civilizations.
Read this book to find out how civilizations really originated and developed. You will be
amazed.
No matter where you live on our Planet, Guy shows you practical historical references
that relate to your area.
The Ascent of Man by Richard Guy
ISBN: 978-0-9629018-3-6
Publisher: Institute of the Expanding Earth
Date of publish: Aug 7, 2009
Pages: 134
S.R.P.: $16.50
===========
Well... it's a new book.
: }
Bronx, NY - Aug 10, 2009 - Announcing the release of a fascinating new book.
This book will forever alter your perspective on the history of ancient civilizations. The
author gives amazing insights into, how and why, all ancient civilizations evolved in high
mountain regions around the world.
We have perhaps never given any thought to this fact. This is because historians were
never aware of a mysterious historical anomaly. As a result we have all been mislead
about the development of ancient civilizations.
Read this book to find out how civilizations really originated and developed. You will be
amazed.
No matter where you live on our Planet, Guy shows you practical historical references
that relate to your area.
The Ascent of Man by Richard Guy
ISBN: 978-0-9629018-3-6
Publisher: Institute of the Expanding Earth
Date of publish: Aug 7, 2009
Pages: 134
S.R.P.: $16.50
===========
Well... it's a new book.
: }
113stellarexplorer
>122 Essa:
Very succinct, rdurick! :-)
Very succinct, rdurick! :-)
114Cynara
Maybe I shouldn't comment without reading it, but... "all ancient civilizations evolved in high mountain regions around the world"? Really? High mountain regions like Mesapotamia, a swampy lowland? Mountain regions like Egypt, which was actually underwater for a third of the year?
116ThePam
Well, there you go Cynara. No wonder it all remains a mystery to you (and me, and I guess everyone else here). You've been thinking the Mesopotamians and Egyptians had civilizations because of the trade and construction and writing and whatnot. You were swayed from witnessing the obvious; that civilization started in the Alps, when the first primitive humans pushed together some rocks to construct the first crude lending institute.
117cemanuel
I heard something about a big boat ride that ended on a mountain in Turkey. Figured that was where this came from. Folks get off the boat, start partying a little and voila - mountaintop civilization!
You never know how those cruises will turn out.
You never know how those cruises will turn out.
118stellarexplorer
>117 cemanuel:
Backing up ever so slightly, what was the role of the cultivation and processing of grains? Later we hear that Noah became inebriated, but is it credible that this was the first time? No doubt Noah used fermented grain products, had many such parties, and later chose to record the details in a form more explicable to the prohibitionists of the time: "A vision from the Lord made me do it..."
That missing book from Thomas Cahill: How Getting Drunk Made Civilization
Backing up ever so slightly, what was the role of the cultivation and processing of grains? Later we hear that Noah became inebriated, but is it credible that this was the first time? No doubt Noah used fermented grain products, had many such parties, and later chose to record the details in a form more explicable to the prohibitionists of the time: "A vision from the Lord made me do it..."
That missing book from Thomas Cahill: How Getting Drunk Made Civilization
120cemanuel
Noah was absolutely not the first. For the first, you have to go back to the Garden of Eden.
Adam and Eve get an apple that makes them think they're smarter when in reality they behave in a manner which isn't good for them, don't follow clear instructions issued by authority and mouth off to the owner until they get kicked out of an establishment? Heck, they behave so abominably that the owner has to hire a bouncer (for eternity, no less) just to keep them from getting back in!
I think it's clear that in that story what the OT writer so quaintly calls an apple is really beer.
Adam and Eve get an apple that makes them think they're smarter when in reality they behave in a manner which isn't good for them, don't follow clear instructions issued by authority and mouth off to the owner until they get kicked out of an establishment? Heck, they behave so abominably that the owner has to hire a bouncer (for eternity, no less) just to keep them from getting back in!
I think it's clear that in that story what the OT writer so quaintly calls an apple is really beer.
122Essa
Between Villa and Town: Excavations of a Roman roadside settlement and shrine at Higham Ferrers, Northamptonshire
by Steve Lawrence and Alex Smith
Oxford Archaeology (publisher)
Oxford Archaeology Monograph (series), No. 7
ISBN 978-0-904220-44-5
This volume presents the results of archaeological investigations of this Roman settlement, along with other excavated prehistoric sites in the local area, including Mesolithic activity, a late Neolithic/early Bronze Age ring ditch and a middle Iron Age settlement.
by Steve Lawrence and Alex Smith
Oxford Archaeology (publisher)
Oxford Archaeology Monograph (series), No. 7
ISBN 978-0-904220-44-5
This volume presents the results of archaeological investigations of this Roman settlement, along with other excavated prehistoric sites in the local area, including Mesolithic activity, a late Neolithic/early Bronze Age ring ditch and a middle Iron Age settlement.
123Essa
Spartans: A New History
by Nigel M. Kennell
Wiley-Blackwell (publisher)
ISNB 978-1-4051-2999-1 (hbk.)
ISBN 978-1-4051-3000-4 (pbk.)
by Nigel M. Kennell
Wiley-Blackwell (publisher)
ISNB 978-1-4051-2999-1 (hbk.)
ISBN 978-1-4051-3000-4 (pbk.)
124ThePam
Wow, Essa, that one's a bit steep in price. $75 bucks (there about) and not that many pages. Still I covet...
125Essa
True. But (a) because I work around academic book titles, anything less than triple-digit prices actually feels "cheap," now; and (b) based on the threads here and in the other history groups about people's book-buying habits, it seems that, for many LTers, money is no object when it comes to feeding their addiction. :D (Alas, I do not fall into that category, or not anymore. To pinch pennies these days, I'm getting as many books as possible from the libraries.)
128ElenaGwynne
I've got both those too, and I haven't read them yet either (And I bought the Hadrian book yesterday).
The cover of the Augustus book annoys me though. I'm almost certain the background is the roof of the Pantheon, which IIRC, wasn't built yet at the time of Augustus.
The cover of the Augustus book annoys me though. I'm almost certain the background is the roof of the Pantheon, which IIRC, wasn't built yet at the time of Augustus.
129Feicht
You're right, it wasn't until the 2nd century. For me though, even if it's just the ceiling of another building with coffers in it, the fact that they would use that as opposed to a cool Romantic Period painting, or sculpture or something is kind of a disappointment.
130omaca
I have to be honest, but this strikes me as an unusually trivial thing at which to be annoyed. The cover of my copy of Cicero, for example, has a picture of his bust (if you know what I mean). The picture of the Pantheon doesn't annoy me in the slightest.
Were one to demand historically accurate, relevant and appropriate jackets only, most of our books would need recovering.
Were one to demand historically accurate, relevant and appropriate jackets only, most of our books would need recovering.
131stellarexplorer
Trivial it is, but that wouldn't stop me from being bothered by it either. Not that I'm proud of it :-)
132Feicht
Omaca, it's not like I'm losing any sleep over it :-P
It's just a point of discussion, that's all ;-) One would think there would be dozens of other things the publisher could've thrown on the cover that would have at least had some relevance to the man in question...
It's just a point of discussion, that's all ;-) One would think there would be dozens of other things the publisher could've thrown on the cover that would have at least had some relevance to the man in question...
133stellarexplorer
And dozens of others that would have been equally or more annoying. For instance, there could be a banner across the top proclaiming this part of the "Benevolent Dictators Series".
135Essa
Rhetorical Exercises from Late Antiquity: A Translation of Choricius of Gaza's Preliminary Talks and Declarations; with an epilogue on Choricius' reception in Byzantium
edited by Robert J. Penella
Cambridge University Press
ISBN 978-0-521-84873-2
(from the book jacket)
Produced by a team of eight scholars, this is the first translation of the Declamations and Preliminary Talks of the sixth-century AD sophist Choricius of Gaza. Declamations, deliberative or judicial orations on fictitious themes, were the fundamental advanced exercises of the rhetorical schools of the Roman Empire, of interest also to audiences outside the schools. Some of Choricius' declamations are on generic themes (e.g., a tyrannicide, a war-hero), while others are based on specific motifs from Homeric times or from classical Greek history. The Preliminary Talks were typical prefaces to orations of all kinds.
This volume also contains a detailed study of Choricius' reception in Byzantium and Renaissance Italy. It will be of interest to students of late antiquity, ancient rhetoric, and ancient education.
Edited to correct a typo.
edited by Robert J. Penella
Cambridge University Press
ISBN 978-0-521-84873-2
(from the book jacket)
Produced by a team of eight scholars, this is the first translation of the Declamations and Preliminary Talks of the sixth-century AD sophist Choricius of Gaza. Declamations, deliberative or judicial orations on fictitious themes, were the fundamental advanced exercises of the rhetorical schools of the Roman Empire, of interest also to audiences outside the schools. Some of Choricius' declamations are on generic themes (e.g., a tyrannicide, a war-hero), while others are based on specific motifs from Homeric times or from classical Greek history. The Preliminary Talks were typical prefaces to orations of all kinds.
This volume also contains a detailed study of Choricius' reception in Byzantium and Renaissance Italy. It will be of interest to students of late antiquity, ancient rhetoric, and ancient education.
Edited to correct a typo.
136Essa
And another:
From Hellenism to Islam: Cultural and Linguistic Change in the Roman Near East
edited by Hannah M. Cotton (et al.)
Cambridge University Press
ISBN 978-0-521-87581-3
From Hellenism to Islam: Cultural and Linguistic Change in the Roman Near East
edited by Hannah M. Cotton (et al.)
Cambridge University Press
ISBN 978-0-521-87581-3
140stellarexplorer
$117 pre-ordered from Amazon
142Essa
> 141 Alas, no, I haven't. It is not yet available on the market (it is available for pre-order on retailers, e.g., Amazon etc.). It was one of many such titles I see at work. I thought it sounded interesting, and I figured that other readers here might find it of interest, also. :)
143cemanuel
This is dangerous. After 10-plus years Amazon has finally figured out what kind of books I like. I won't mention 'em here because they're Early Medieval/Late Antiquity but if this keeps up my budget could have some issues.
144Feicht
I have no idea when it's going to come out, but in one of my classes we're reading the manuscript for a new translation of Prokopios' "The Secret History" by the professor's friend A. Kaldellis. It's pretty good, everyone should keep an eye out for it :-) His translation keeps the wittiness and vitriol of Prokopios, not to mention including tons of "Related Texts" and great footnotes on every page!
145Barton
I have just pre-ordered From Hellenism to Islam and Spartans: A New History...I will cross my fingers that they will be a good read.
146Essa
> 145 Let us know how they are!
This just out:
Colonial Encounters in Ancient Iberia: Phoenician, Greek, and Indigenous Relations
edited by Michael Dietler and Carolina López-Ruiz
University of Chicago Press
ISBN 978-0-226-14847-2
This just out:
Colonial Encounters in Ancient Iberia: Phoenician, Greek, and Indigenous Relations
edited by Michael Dietler and Carolina López-Ruiz
University of Chicago Press
ISBN 978-0-226-14847-2
148Essa
I didn't type the table of contents as it was too long/didn't have time, but it can be viewed on the publisher page. I thought it sounded very interesting.
Edited for link and to make grammatical sense.
Edited for link and to make grammatical sense.
149Feicht
"Light from the East"... awesome! :-D
Yeah I've always been really into this "indigenous Europeans" thing. Whenever we think of aborigines, we are invariably drawn to the natives of Australia or the American Indians, but we tend to forget that Europe used to very similar. I like to imagine the same sense of awe and curiosity present with the early Celts or Lusotanians as would have existed amongst the Native Americans when the first ships started showing up.
Yeah I've always been really into this "indigenous Europeans" thing. Whenever we think of aborigines, we are invariably drawn to the natives of Australia or the American Indians, but we tend to forget that Europe used to very similar. I like to imagine the same sense of awe and curiosity present with the early Celts or Lusotanians as would have existed amongst the Native Americans when the first ships started showing up.
150Essa
Three more -
Medical Analogy in Latin Satire
by Sari Kivistö
Palgrave Macmillan
ISBN 978-0-230-22812-2
Discourse Cohesion in Ancient Greek
edited by Stéphanie Bakker and Gerry Wakker
Brill
ISBN 978-90-04-17472-6
Art and Society in Cyprus from the Bronze Age into the Iron Age
by Joanna S. Smith
Cambridge University Press
ISBN 978-0-521-51367-8
Medical Analogy in Latin Satire
by Sari Kivistö
Palgrave Macmillan
ISBN 978-0-230-22812-2
Discourse Cohesion in Ancient Greek
edited by Stéphanie Bakker and Gerry Wakker
Brill
ISBN 978-90-04-17472-6
Art and Society in Cyprus from the Bronze Age into the Iron Age
by Joanna S. Smith
Cambridge University Press
ISBN 978-0-521-51367-8
151shikari
I wonder, Feicht, whether Kaldellis' Secret History isn't going to be too filled with Kaldellis' own pet theories - he hardly writes sine ira et studium. The notes will be most interesting, but will they be dependable? I wasn't convinced by much of his Procopius of Caesarea: Tyranny, History, and Philosophy at the End of Antiquity, though he himself was very helpful when I discussed Procopius with him.
152shikari
I see that both Rhetorical Exercises from Late Antiquity and From Hellenism to Islam are on the shelves of Blackwells here in Oxford.
153Essa
And here is another:
Water Engineering in the Ancient World: Archaeological and Climate Perspectives on Societies of Ancient South America, the Middle East, and South-East Asia
by Charles R. Ortloff
ISBN 978-0-19-923909-2
Oxford University Press
Water Engineering in the Ancient World: Archaeological and Climate Perspectives on Societies of Ancient South America, the Middle East, and South-East Asia
by Charles R. Ortloff
ISBN 978-0-19-923909-2
Oxford University Press
154Feicht
Shikari, his notes in the manuscript I read were great (in my opinion) so I can only imagine the finished product will be even better :-)
There's also a nice introduction and "related works" at the back that make good bookends for the work.
There's also a nice introduction and "related works" at the back that make good bookends for the work.
155Essa
This recent title looks interesting:
Bathing in the Roman World
by Fikret Yegül
Cambridge University Press
ISBN 978-0-521-54962-2
Bathing in the Roman World
by Fikret Yegül
Cambridge University Press
ISBN 978-0-521-54962-2
156ElenaGwynne
That last one does look interesting. Will have to keep an eye out.
157ThePam
Ran across this -- Hannibal: Rome's Worst Nightmare -- and it is absolutely FABulous. It's a Scholastic book by Philip Brooks. Can't recommend it enough for Middle-School and holder peeps who want a mini lesson on the Barcas.
The book has an engaging format, WITH MAP!, and it's well written to boot. I haven't written a review yet, but plan to shortly. (did I just doom that review's timeliness?)
The book has an engaging format, WITH MAP!, and it's well written to boot. I haven't written a review yet, but plan to shortly. (did I just doom that review's timeliness?)
159ThePam
I know, is that great marketing or what.
(Actually at the end, the author tries to put the kibosh on the 'wicked' aspect, putting the violence in context... as it were.)
(Actually at the end, the author tries to put the kibosh on the 'wicked' aspect, putting the violence in context... as it were.)
160Mr.Durick
I've scanned the previous messages to see whether this book has been mentioned before. Please forgive me if it is there and I missed it.
I had the catalog of World History from Oxford University Press in this morning's mail and started to look at it while my computer started up. Among the best sellers was After Alexander edited by Georgina Hermann which promises to be "crucial for our understanding of the ancient and early medieval world." That struck me as probably interesting, but not so much as to send off my check for $120 on speculation.
I saw above that Garp, in message 1, mentioned Civilizations of Ancient Iraq by Foster and Foster and that Essa, in message 136, mentioned From Helenism to Islam: Cultural and Linguistic Change in the Roman Near East edited by Hannah M. Cotton. Do any of you know whether there is a particular comprehensive authority on the subject?
Robert
I had the catalog of World History from Oxford University Press in this morning's mail and started to look at it while my computer started up. Among the best sellers was After Alexander edited by Georgina Hermann which promises to be "crucial for our understanding of the ancient and early medieval world." That struck me as probably interesting, but not so much as to send off my check for $120 on speculation.
I saw above that Garp, in message 1, mentioned Civilizations of Ancient Iraq by Foster and Foster and that Essa, in message 136, mentioned From Helenism to Islam: Cultural and Linguistic Change in the Roman Near East edited by Hannah M. Cotton. Do any of you know whether there is a particular comprehensive authority on the subject?
Robert
161Garp83
I just lifted the new titles from their website. I haven't read it so unfortunately I do not know. Sorry.
162Essa
Mr.Durick, I unfortunately have not read those books, and am not an authority on the ancient Near and Middle East, or ancient Middle Eastern linguistics, or interactions of the Roman Empire and the ancient Middle East. So I am unable to recommend such a book. If I come across such a book, I will certainly mention it, though (I'd be interested in it, myself).
163HarmlessTed
This one sounds interesting: Problems in the History of Ancient Greece: Sources and Interpretation by Donald Kagan
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Problems-History-Ancient-Greece-Interpretation/dp/013614...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Problems-History-Ancient-Greece-Interpretation/dp/013614...
164Garp83
I don't know. Maybe. I'm torn by Kagan because he is one of the foremost scholars of ancient Greece but he's also a right-winger & he often injects his modern day spin into his interpretation of that era.
165Feicht
I try to put it in perspective because it's really something we all do. But I find a lot of the stuff he says outright annoying.
168HarmlessTed
Kagan wrote some good books. And the Problems in Ancient History series is excellent.
This new one went straight on my wishlist.
This new one went straight on my wishlist.
169Garp83
Well Kagan's not as bad as say Paul Johnson, who seems to admire Mussolini, but there is strong evidence for his political bent in his writings. It's not that it isn't sometimes tempting to view the Athenian Empire vs. the Peloponnesian League in modern terms, but it is wrong as a historian to get carried away with this in your historiography and to read our political sphere back in time when you are dissecting ancient events for a wider audience. In other words, what may be permissible for an editorial, short essay or cocktail party blather should not be allowed to infect the narrative of the history book you write.
170cemanuel
It used to really irritate me when folks try to draw parallels between a culture from 1500-2500 years ago and modern western civilization - the concept is just so ridiculous. I've gotten to where it's pretty easy to ignore now. Frex, I know that Kagan includes that in his books but I can't tell you exactly what he says - I just skim over those parts. His The Peloponnesian War is still probably the best overview on the subject. I'd hate to miss it just because he likes to go off and editorialize every now and then.
171Garp83
Agreed. Which is why I haven't stopped reading him but I sometimes cringe ...
By the way, I downloaded all of his lectures from Yale in video for free for his Introduction to Greek History. He is a terrible lecturer!!!!! Much better in writing!
By the way, I downloaded all of his lectures from Yale in video for free for his Introduction to Greek History. He is a terrible lecturer!!!!! Much better in writing!
173Garp83
There is a case to be made that there are echoes in our modern world of "thought and behavior of classical Greeks" -- that is not preposterous at all. At the same time, we must be carefful not to read too much into the past through the prism of our own experiences. Right-wingers forever compare any negotiation with the Hitler-Chamberlain appeasement, but that is just stupid, for there has been nothing similar to that in the years since. The idea that there may be similes in an ancient league of democracies facing off against an ancient league of authoritarians and modern semi-equivalents isn't crazy. Many other than Kagan have made the case and it has some merit. My point is that this is better left to editorials than to the writing and study of history.
174stellarexplorer
Humans of any era have an awful lot in common, don't you think? Substitute any culture of any time and I think it would not be controversial to say "the thought and behavior of culture X has great similarity to our own". Not that there aren't unique features, but having these human brains in common tends toward other affinities.
175Feicht
True but there is a difference between saying something like.... "the sack of the Acropolis was like the Athenian's 9/11"........and trying to justify your conservative economic vision of American society by the actions of the Delian League.
176stellarexplorer
No question. Just making a point that does need saying from time to time...
177rolandperkins
To Garp83:
Yes, you are right that right-wingers "forever compare any negotiation with the Hitler-Chamberlain appeasement...".
Such misinterpretation does usually come from the Right, but I know of one such that came from the far Left: Chinaʻs take on the Kennedy/Khrushchev settlement of the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962. We like to think of it as Kennedy standing up to the dictator, and Khrushchevʻs backing down ("the other guy blinked", as Sec. Rusk put it).
As the Chinese "political scientist" saw it,
Kennedy had the Hitler role in 1962ʻs repeat of
Munich:1938. Khruschev and the Soviet Union were the appeasing Western Deocracies that Chamberlain and Deladier had led in 1938, and Fidel Castroʻs Cuba was the "Czechoslovakia" of 1962.
Differences, of course: the truncated Czechoslovkia produced by Munich survived "Munich:1938" for only six months, whereas a Castro-led Cuba survives to this day. I donʻt suppose that either Chamberlain or Khrushchev was aware of having "blinked".
The lesson of even a flawed comparative scenario such as Chinaʻs on Munich/Cuba is that, while we may exaggerate, see far-fetched similarities, ,and ignore differences, we may also be blind to the most ominous of similarities.
Yes, you are right that right-wingers "forever compare any negotiation with the Hitler-Chamberlain appeasement...".
Such misinterpretation does usually come from the Right, but I know of one such that came from the far Left: Chinaʻs take on the Kennedy/Khrushchev settlement of the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962. We like to think of it as Kennedy standing up to the dictator, and Khrushchevʻs backing down ("the other guy blinked", as Sec. Rusk put it).
As the Chinese "political scientist" saw it,
Kennedy had the Hitler role in 1962ʻs repeat of
Munich:1938. Khruschev and the Soviet Union were the appeasing Western Deocracies that Chamberlain and Deladier had led in 1938, and Fidel Castroʻs Cuba was the "Czechoslovakia" of 1962.
Differences, of course: the truncated Czechoslovkia produced by Munich survived "Munich:1938" for only six months, whereas a Castro-led Cuba survives to this day. I donʻt suppose that either Chamberlain or Khrushchev was aware of having "blinked".
The lesson of even a flawed comparative scenario such as Chinaʻs on Munich/Cuba is that, while we may exaggerate, see far-fetched similarities, ,and ignore differences, we may also be blind to the most ominous of similarities.
179Essa
This might be interesting:
Adoption in the Roman World
by Hugh Lindsay
Cambridge University Press
ISBN 978-0-52176050-8
Adoption in the Roman World
by Hugh Lindsay
Cambridge University Press
ISBN 978-0-52176050-8
180Essa
Edited: title removed. It was about the 14th-18th centuries, not ancient/classical history, which I would have noticed if I'd been more alert. Sorry. (Note to self: Sleep first, then LibraryThing.)
183Tatarana
Although I didn't post in the thread until now, I've been following it with great interest, and taking note of the always good suggestions.
Sorry if it's out of topic, but is there any good book recommendation on the Tiberius period?
Sorry if it's out of topic, but is there any good book recommendation on the Tiberius period?
184Feicht
It's 2000 years old and biased as all hell, but Tacitus' Annals of Imperial Rome is a good place to start.
185cemanuel
If you're going to include Tacitus you about have to include Suetonius' Lives of the Twelve Caesars.
Though his Caligula chapter is what always grabbed me, especially (paraphrasing) "So much for his career as a statesman. Now let us look at his career as a monster."
Not sure about secondary works.
Though his Caligula chapter is what always grabbed me, especially (paraphrasing) "So much for his career as a statesman. Now let us look at his career as a monster."
Not sure about secondary works.
186Tatarana
@Feicht: Thanks for your recommendation but I was looking for something a little less "raw", if you know what I mean. :)
@cemanuel: Thanks for your recommendation also. I have Suetonius book, but I've only read it til Caligula. The sentence you cited is slightly different from what I have in my portuguese translation.
@cemanuel: Thanks for your recommendation also. I have Suetonius book, but I've only read it til Caligula. The sentence you cited is slightly different from what I have in my portuguese translation.
187ThePam
I saw this one Becoming Byzantine: Children and Childhood in Byzantium (Dumbarton Oaks Byzantine Symposia and Colloquia) that sounded interesting.
I found this post tantalizingly talking about the book. (Alas, it'll be a few more months before it becomes available thru Interlibrary)
------------
A new book on Byzantine children is providing fascinating insights into how people viewed childhood and adolescence in the Middle Ages. Becoming Byzantine: Children and Childhood in Byzantium, is a collection of nine articles that reveal various aspects of childhood, ranging from their legal status to how they were treated when they died.
In her article, 'The Material Culture of Childhood in Byzantium,' Brigitte Pitarakis examines various physical objects associated with children, including clothes, food and toys. Pitarakis writes, "because toys were often presented to children as gifts, they served as an important mechanism of bonding between adults and children."
According to Pitarakis' research, the first toy an infant might receive would be a rattle, often made of clay, with pebbles or grains inside the hollow container. They were also usually painted in bright colours.
Once the child got a little older, his or her next toy would likely be a pull toy in the shape of horse on wheels or saddled with a rider. Another popular toy for kids were whistles, which were made of clay and often shaped like animals.
Pitarakis also writes about how ball games were popular in Byzantium, both with children and adults. Byzantine writers describe some of the games played by children, both boys and girls, which would use balls, hoops, knucklebones and pebbles. The love of some of these games continued on into adulthood for many Byzantines - Emperor Michael VI, for example, ordered that one of his palaces be cleaned because he had lost a knucklebone he was playing with somewhere inside.
Dolls were also important toy for Byzantine girls, and several examples of wooden and rag dolls have been found through archaeological investigations. Some dolls would come with clothes to dress them in, and at least one also used a strand real hair to serve as the doll's hair.
Becoming Byzantine is published by Dumbarton Oaks Research Library, which is one of North America's leading research centers in Byzantine history.
http://medievalnews.blogspot.com/2009/11/what-toys-did-byzantine-children-play.h...
I found this post tantalizingly talking about the book. (Alas, it'll be a few more months before it becomes available thru Interlibrary)
------------
A new book on Byzantine children is providing fascinating insights into how people viewed childhood and adolescence in the Middle Ages. Becoming Byzantine: Children and Childhood in Byzantium, is a collection of nine articles that reveal various aspects of childhood, ranging from their legal status to how they were treated when they died.
In her article, 'The Material Culture of Childhood in Byzantium,' Brigitte Pitarakis examines various physical objects associated with children, including clothes, food and toys. Pitarakis writes, "because toys were often presented to children as gifts, they served as an important mechanism of bonding between adults and children."
According to Pitarakis' research, the first toy an infant might receive would be a rattle, often made of clay, with pebbles or grains inside the hollow container. They were also usually painted in bright colours.
Once the child got a little older, his or her next toy would likely be a pull toy in the shape of horse on wheels or saddled with a rider. Another popular toy for kids were whistles, which were made of clay and often shaped like animals.
Pitarakis also writes about how ball games were popular in Byzantium, both with children and adults. Byzantine writers describe some of the games played by children, both boys and girls, which would use balls, hoops, knucklebones and pebbles. The love of some of these games continued on into adulthood for many Byzantines - Emperor Michael VI, for example, ordered that one of his palaces be cleaned because he had lost a knucklebone he was playing with somewhere inside.
Dolls were also important toy for Byzantine girls, and several examples of wooden and rag dolls have been found through archaeological investigations. Some dolls would come with clothes to dress them in, and at least one also used a strand real hair to serve as the doll's hair.
Becoming Byzantine is published by Dumbarton Oaks Research Library, which is one of North America's leading research centers in Byzantine history.
http://medievalnews.blogspot.com/2009/11/what-toys-did-byzantine-children-play.h...
188Feicht
I knew that name sounded familiar, I've been reading articles from Dumbarton Oaks all semester for my Byzantine class :-D
189Garp83
This looks promising:
From Egypt to Babylon: The International Age 1550-500 BC
Paul Collins
For those who believe that globalization is a purely modern phenomenon, this book holds a startling and absorbing lesson. From Egypt to Babylon immerses readers in a world of exotic empires and states as they waxed and waned and interacted in a period of extraordinary internationalism—all before the rise of the Persian Empire.
The ancient Egyptians, Minoans, Mycenaeans, Hittites, Canaanites, Hurrians, Aramaeans, Israelites, Urartians, Mannaeans, Assyrians, Phrygians, Kassites, Chaldaeans, Elamites, Scythians, Medes, and Persians: these are the societies who for a millennia peopled the world from the Aegean and Egypt in the west to what we know now as Iraq and Iran in the east. In a concise introduction, illustrated with objects drawn largely from the collections of the British Museum, this book takes the reader through the vast and varied landscape of this period, where a far-flung world was linked by military expansion, diplomatic relations, and movement of goods and peoples that brought about profound cultural exchanges and technological and social revolutions. The story brings the reader from the foundations of the Egyptian empire through the turmoil at the end of the second millennium bce to the unprecedented political unification of the whole region by kings of Persia.
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/COLFRO.html
ALSO -- now available to paperback:
Xenophon's Retreat: Greece, Persia, and the End of the Golden Age ~ Robin Waterfield
An excellent book. Robin Waterfield writes very well, in a style that is accessible and sophisticated. We are taken into an adrenaline-filled hoplite battle, we discover that owning horses in Xenophon's day was a mark of the super-rich like owning a Ferrari today, we even back away from the bad breath of ancient slaves, and as we view the sea from the Pontic mountains we understand why 'the sea' was virtually an ancient Greek way of saying 'home.'
--Barry Strauss, Cornell University, author of The Trojan War: A New History
Mr. Waterfield, unlike his ancient source, tells the story briskly and vividly. Reading his account of the march is like hearing a record that used to sound like sludge finally set to the right rpm. But Mr. Waterfield...goes easy on his favored Greeks, whom he views as trying to live virtuously in a world that has made it impossible, forgetting somehow that mercenaries like Xenophon's men were the ones who made it impossible. Xenophon had his chance to live virtuously. He had been loosely associated with Socrates and so knew the basic outline of the virtuous life. But Xenophon grew bored and headed east--to present-day Iraq, which has never been a good place to go if you're bored or looking to live virtuously.
--Brendan Boyle (New York Sun )
From Egypt to Babylon: The International Age 1550-500 BC
Paul Collins
For those who believe that globalization is a purely modern phenomenon, this book holds a startling and absorbing lesson. From Egypt to Babylon immerses readers in a world of exotic empires and states as they waxed and waned and interacted in a period of extraordinary internationalism—all before the rise of the Persian Empire.
The ancient Egyptians, Minoans, Mycenaeans, Hittites, Canaanites, Hurrians, Aramaeans, Israelites, Urartians, Mannaeans, Assyrians, Phrygians, Kassites, Chaldaeans, Elamites, Scythians, Medes, and Persians: these are the societies who for a millennia peopled the world from the Aegean and Egypt in the west to what we know now as Iraq and Iran in the east. In a concise introduction, illustrated with objects drawn largely from the collections of the British Museum, this book takes the reader through the vast and varied landscape of this period, where a far-flung world was linked by military expansion, diplomatic relations, and movement of goods and peoples that brought about profound cultural exchanges and technological and social revolutions. The story brings the reader from the foundations of the Egyptian empire through the turmoil at the end of the second millennium bce to the unprecedented political unification of the whole region by kings of Persia.
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/COLFRO.html
ALSO -- now available to paperback:
Xenophon's Retreat: Greece, Persia, and the End of the Golden Age ~ Robin Waterfield
An excellent book. Robin Waterfield writes very well, in a style that is accessible and sophisticated. We are taken into an adrenaline-filled hoplite battle, we discover that owning horses in Xenophon's day was a mark of the super-rich like owning a Ferrari today, we even back away from the bad breath of ancient slaves, and as we view the sea from the Pontic mountains we understand why 'the sea' was virtually an ancient Greek way of saying 'home.'
--Barry Strauss, Cornell University, author of The Trojan War: A New History
Mr. Waterfield, unlike his ancient source, tells the story briskly and vividly. Reading his account of the march is like hearing a record that used to sound like sludge finally set to the right rpm. But Mr. Waterfield...goes easy on his favored Greeks, whom he views as trying to live virtuously in a world that has made it impossible, forgetting somehow that mercenaries like Xenophon's men were the ones who made it impossible. Xenophon had his chance to live virtuously. He had been loosely associated with Socrates and so knew the basic outline of the virtuous life. But Xenophon grew bored and headed east--to present-day Iraq, which has never been a good place to go if you're bored or looking to live virtuously.
--Brendan Boyle (New York Sun )
192Garp83
I noticed that there is now The Landmark Xenophon's Hellenika which I saw in a bookstore in Mystic River CT while sightseeing (that's right, I sightsee inside bookstores, to my wife's sometime chagrin.) Anyway, so as not to get too behind, I finally broke down & ordered my hardcover The Landmark Thucydides last night.
193Feicht
The store downtown??!? I used to go in there like every day hoping they'd actually get something good!
194Coessens
Coming back to Tom Holland, I read Persian fire and Millenium. Great history books, definitely worth the effort. I didn't read Rubicon yet, but I surely will.
195Feicht
It's in my opinion the best book on the fall of the Republic for a general audience ever written :)
196Tatarana
@192:
I've ordered the The Landmark Herodotus: The Histories, but I'm waiting for the slow overseas delivery. I'm hoping it's good.
I've ordered the The Landmark Herodotus: The Histories, but I'm waiting for the slow overseas delivery. I'm hoping it's good.
197Barton
A good book for 'àncient international relations`is "The Eastern Mediterranean in the Age of Ramesses II" by Marc Van de Mieroop. It is published by Blackwell.
198Barton
I just remembered, another book by the same author is "A History of the Ancient Near East ca. 3000 - 323 BC" It too is not a bad read, especially for one who does not have a deep or profound knowledge of the subject. Any other opininions from this group would be greatly appreciated.
199Barton
By the way, I just ordered 'Becoming Byzantine: Children and Childhood in Byzantium' and 'Egypt to Babylon: The International Age 1550-500 BC'. And yes this is a great group to learn from.
200Mr.Durick
In re 198:
A History of the Ancient Near East ca. 3000 - 323 BC. It's available at BN.COM for $33.51 for members.
Robert
A History of the Ancient Near East ca. 3000 - 323 BC. It's available at BN.COM for $33.51 for members.
Robert
201Garp83
Tata -- The Landmark Herodotus: The Histories is beautiful but be sure to order hardcover not paper -- the trade paper edition is really crummy
202stellarexplorer
I got the paperback Landmark Thucydides not long ago, and I had heard about the crumminess, as above. Having low expectations was very good, because it's better than I thought it would be. One could make a philosophy of life out of that, maybe.
204Garp83
Yeah but if you compare them side by side -- as I did -- you will see how different the two editions are
206Essa
A book of possible interest:
Historical Dictionary of Mesopotamia (2nd ed.)
by Gwendolyn Leick
Scarecrow Press
ISBN 978-0-8108-6182-4
Historical Dictionary of Mesopotamia (2nd ed.)
by Gwendolyn Leick
Scarecrow Press
ISBN 978-0-8108-6182-4
207stellarexplorer
>204 Garp83: I believe you. I'm not thrilled with the paper in my copy. But at least it's better than I expected.
I might shell out the $ for a hardback copy -- but there are still so many books I don't own!
I might shell out the $ for a hardback copy -- but there are still so many books I don't own!
208Garp83
So I got the hardcover yesterday & I added to my Christmas list the Landmark Xenophon. For those of you on the B&N mailing list there is a 30% coupon out there right now for any hardcover FYI
209Essa
Of possible interest.
Image and Text in Graeco-Roman Antiquity
by Michael Squire
Cambridge University Press
ISBN 978-0-521-75601-3
Image and Text in Graeco-Roman Antiquity
by Michael Squire
Cambridge University Press
ISBN 978-0-521-75601-3
210omaca
I have both the Landmark Thucydides and Herodotus and don't understand the reference to "crumbiness." I love them both.
Am I missing something?
Am I missing something?
212ThePam
You guys have GOT to go look at these relics. REALLY.
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/11/25/science/112409_ARCH_2.html
=========
Oops... sorry, posted this in the wrong thread.
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/11/25/science/112409_ARCH_2.html
=========
Oops... sorry, posted this in the wrong thread.
215dandiffendale
If you're interested in Roman history, I'd recommend Roman Republics by Harriet Flower (2010). It's a complete rethinking of how we understand about 500 years of Roman history, and especially the fall of the Republic. It's short and to the point, well written, by a respected scholar.
216Barton
I have ordered it on your rec. and while I was at it I ordered "The Art of Forgetting: Disgrace and Oblivion in Roman Political Culture" I will see how they turn out.
217Coessens
Message 212. Indeed wonderful artifacts. Looking at the dates, they are contemporary to the Sumerian culture, amazing.
219stellarexplorer
THE POISON KING, The Life and Legend of Mithradates, Rome's Deadliest Enemy By Adrienne Mayor , nominated for the National Book Award, might actually be readable. I'm hoping big, for a well-written but not-quite-academic account ala Tom Holland. I know, it's an ask.
Here's a review, also not academic: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/19/AR2009111903942....
Here's a review, also not academic: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/19/AR2009111903942....
221Garp83
Sounds really good, Stellar, though my TBR is just too long right now to consider it in the near future ...
222shikari
It's quite annoying, this tendency to redo what someone has already done. There was a life of Mithradates done only last year, Mithridates the Great: Rome's Indomitable Enemy by Phllip Matyszak. Why couldn't the author of the new one chosen Tigranes the Great or one of the other interesting people of the era. It's like books on Byzantium - no-one ever seems to write books on aspects of Byzantium - it's always a full history of Byzantium, either political or cultural. I hope never to read another history of Byzantium (at least till Treadgold's A History of Byzantine State and Society is a generation old); similarly I don't want to read another popular history repeating someone else's recent work either, whether written by Tom Holland or anyone else.
Now to contradict myself, has anyone read Paul Stephenson's Constantine: Unconquered Emperor, Christian Victor? I've read a couple of chapters, and it seems good.
Now to contradict myself, has anyone read Paul Stephenson's Constantine: Unconquered Emperor, Christian Victor? I've read a couple of chapters, and it seems good.
223stellarexplorer
>222 shikari: My guess is that Mayor started writing the book long before Matyszak's came out.
225ThePam
I put up a little blurb about "Constantine" on my blog and then wrote to the good professor (he's a young fellow) and asked him about the book. I was looking more for an answer about why he focused on that particular emperor... but here's what he wrote back.
As you will see ...in the intro, I don't think it is historically possible to write a convincing biography of a pre-modern figure, but Constantine presents a compelling pole around which to wind several strands, such that he is fairly well covered. The book is about the intersection between faith and power in the later Roman empire, arguing that Constantine's interest in Christianity, initially and sustainedly, was that of a general. Operating within the traditional Roman theology of victory, elaborated through the third-century crisis, he required the patronage of the greatest god to achieve victory in battle and to maintain his authority.
As you will see ...in the intro, I don't think it is historically possible to write a convincing biography of a pre-modern figure, but Constantine presents a compelling pole around which to wind several strands, such that he is fairly well covered. The book is about the intersection between faith and power in the later Roman empire, arguing that Constantine's interest in Christianity, initially and sustainedly, was that of a general. Operating within the traditional Roman theology of victory, elaborated through the third-century crisis, he required the patronage of the greatest god to achieve victory in battle and to maintain his authority.
227Essa
A recent book that may be of interest.
Civilizations of the Ancient World: A Visual Sourcebook
by Dominic Rathbone
Thames & Hudson (publisher)
ISBN 978-0-500-28834-4
Civilizations of the Ancient World: A Visual Sourcebook
by Dominic Rathbone
Thames & Hudson (publisher)
ISBN 978-0-500-28834-4
228Essa
And another:
Ptolemy in Perspective: Use and Criticism of His Work from Antiquity to the Nineteenth Century
edited by Alexander Jones
Springer (publisher)
ISBN 978-90-481-2787-0
Ptolemy in Perspective: Use and Criticism of His Work from Antiquity to the Nineteenth Century
edited by Alexander Jones
Springer (publisher)
ISBN 978-90-481-2787-0
229_Zoe_
>228 Essa: Seriously, who prices these books? 232 pages, $189?
Still, that looks like an interesting read.
Still, that looks like an interesting read.
231Garp83
Academic books are priced high because they have a limited readership and therefore less are sold -- perhaps it becomes self-fulfilling prophecy. Textbook are priced high because they can be and it is a terrible rip-off for all!
232Essa
> 229, 231 -- Yep. In a way, it's a special sort of hell to work in an environment where one sees, eats, breathes all these wonderful academic titles, yet not make enough to be able to buy them. Especially when books like Twilight or Britiny Spears' memoirs or some such, are probably available for about $2. :D Ugh.
axelp, I don't know of any, but I bet some of the others here do. Mayhap it warrants its own thread? It sounds like an interesting topic. :)
axelp, I don't know of any, but I bet some of the others here do. Mayhap it warrants its own thread? It sounds like an interesting topic. :)
233_Zoe_
>231 Garp83: I absolutely think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Especially in the days of online bookselling, when it's a lot easier to discover books beyond the ones on display in the local store, I think there are plenty of people who would buy more obscure scholarly stuff if only it were moderately affordable.
234Feicht
Oh make no mistake... much of scholarly pursuit is purposely placed out of the reach of the common folk. Anyone who has ever tried to get anything published knows exactly what I mean ;-)
235Barton
One book which I have in my library is "Mediterranean Anarchy, Interstate War and the rise of Rome" (2006)by Arthur M. Eckstein. I have looked at it but not really read it yet. It looks kind of ok but as I say I have not properly read it yet. I does seem to be probably what you are looking for. Depending on your sit maybe a paperback is out.
236Barton
I have just checked Amazon.com and it is in paperback for 24.95. He does have another wsork titled, "Rome Enters the Greek East: From Anarchy to Hierarchy in the Hellenistic Mediterranean, 230-170 BC' but only in hardcover for $100.00.
237Essa
axelp, not sure if they are precisely what you seek, but Eckstein (from Barton's post, above) has a couple of other works that might be of interest:
Rome Enters the Greek East: From Anarchy to Hierarchy in the Hellenistic Mediterranean, 230-170 BC
Senate and General: Individual Decision-Making and Roman Foreign Relations, 264-194 B.C.
There is also War and Imperialism in Republican Rome: 327-70 B.C., by William V. Harris.
An old book from 1975 (out of print, but perhaps available through specialty shops or in libraries) is The client princes of the Roman Empire under the Republic by Percy C. Sands.
Rome Enters the Greek East: From Anarchy to Hierarchy in the Hellenistic Mediterranean, 230-170 BC
Senate and General: Individual Decision-Making and Roman Foreign Relations, 264-194 B.C.
There is also War and Imperialism in Republican Rome: 327-70 B.C., by William V. Harris.
An old book from 1975 (out of print, but perhaps available through specialty shops or in libraries) is The client princes of the Roman Empire under the Republic by Percy C. Sands.
238axelp
Thanks Essa and Barton. These look interesting. I guess I could have done my own search on Melvyl or whatever, but this definitely gives me a place to start.
239Feicht
I found a bunch of cool ones at Borders the other day, but I just checked and all of them except this one are mentioned here:
The Dancing Plague: The Strange, True Story of an Extraordinary Illness by John Waller
http://www.amazon.com/Dancing-Plague-Strange-Extraordinary-Illness/dp/1402219431...
In Strasbourg in 1518, a dance craze began that, far from being a mere fashion, was a form of hysteria in which people literally danced themselves to death. The plague began on July 14, 1518, when Frau Troffea stepped into the streets of Strasbourg and danced madly for hours despite extreme exhaustion and swollen, bleeding feet. In the end, over 100 people died of what came to be known as St. Vitus's dance. What caused this dancing plague? In his sometimes compelling and often superficial tale, Michigan State medical historian Waller draws on fresh historical evidence to recreate a society stricken by famine, in which illness was seen as a punishment from God, and laypeople resented the corruption of priests and nobles. These factors resulted in hysteria that contributed to the dance plague, and Waller concludes that the dancers entered a deep trance that enabled them to dance through their exhaustion. But compared with other historical examinations of mass hysteria, Waller's analysis lacks breadth and depth—a shame, given the fascinating material he has to work with.
--------------------------------------------
I've always been interested in these "dancing manias" but my level of study in history tends to peter out around 1000 AD so I've never really looked into it before. I've always just imagined them as being like one big Woodstock all at once...haha
EDIT: Or the episode of the Simpsons where Bart dreams he invented a Go-go raygun, and zaps everyone at school. "Can't....stop...doing....THE MONKEY!!!" :-D
The Dancing Plague: The Strange, True Story of an Extraordinary Illness by John Waller
http://www.amazon.com/Dancing-Plague-Strange-Extraordinary-Illness/dp/1402219431...
In Strasbourg in 1518, a dance craze began that, far from being a mere fashion, was a form of hysteria in which people literally danced themselves to death. The plague began on July 14, 1518, when Frau Troffea stepped into the streets of Strasbourg and danced madly for hours despite extreme exhaustion and swollen, bleeding feet. In the end, over 100 people died of what came to be known as St. Vitus's dance. What caused this dancing plague? In his sometimes compelling and often superficial tale, Michigan State medical historian Waller draws on fresh historical evidence to recreate a society stricken by famine, in which illness was seen as a punishment from God, and laypeople resented the corruption of priests and nobles. These factors resulted in hysteria that contributed to the dance plague, and Waller concludes that the dancers entered a deep trance that enabled them to dance through their exhaustion. But compared with other historical examinations of mass hysteria, Waller's analysis lacks breadth and depth—a shame, given the fascinating material he has to work with.
--------------------------------------------
I've always been interested in these "dancing manias" but my level of study in history tends to peter out around 1000 AD so I've never really looked into it before. I've always just imagined them as being like one big Woodstock all at once...haha
EDIT: Or the episode of the Simpsons where Bart dreams he invented a Go-go raygun, and zaps everyone at school. "Can't....stop...doing....THE MONKEY!!!" :-D
240cemanuel
#239 The bad grain explanation for these always made the most sense to me. You're in the middle of a famine, you eat something you'd never ordinarily consider eating, it has toxins that get into your brain ...
Though I haven't looked into it in any depth.
Though I haven't looked into it in any depth.
241Coessens
Could this be compared to the dancing contests held in some countries dring the Depression years. Watch the film "They shoot horses, don't they".
242axelp
H V Morton describes an authentic tarantella in Southern Italy when he was there in the 1950's (I think). You have to put yourself in the mental and spiritual framework of the folklore and traditions of the culture to grasp why it makes sense to dance until you fall down exhausted when afflicted by a spider bite, famine, or any other misfortune. Put simply, dancing is cathartic.
243Garp83
For Christmas I got quite the haul:
American Lion: Andrew Jackson in the White House, by John Meacham
Plows, Plagues & Petroleum: How Humans Took Control of Climate by William F. Ruddiman
Athenaze I: An Introduction to Ancient Greek, Teacher’s Handbook by Blame & Lawall (for self-correcting my homework)
Diodorus Siculus Vol. IV Loeb Edition
Diodorus Siculus Vol. V Loeb Edition
Teaching Company Course: Alexander the Great and the Macedonian Empire, (audio CD) taught by Kenneth Harl
Teaching Company Course: Religion in the Ancient Mediterranean World, (audio CD) taught by Glenn Holland
American Lion: Andrew Jackson in the White House, by John Meacham
Plows, Plagues & Petroleum: How Humans Took Control of Climate by William F. Ruddiman
Athenaze I: An Introduction to Ancient Greek, Teacher’s Handbook by Blame & Lawall (for self-correcting my homework)
Diodorus Siculus Vol. IV Loeb Edition
Diodorus Siculus Vol. V Loeb Edition
Teaching Company Course: Alexander the Great and the Macedonian Empire, (audio CD) taught by Kenneth Harl
Teaching Company Course: Religion in the Ancient Mediterranean World, (audio CD) taught by Glenn Holland
244stellarexplorer
Thumbs up!
245Garp83
Books to the ceiling,/ Books to the sky,/ My pile of books is a mile high./ How I love them! How I need them!/ I'll have a long beard by the time I read them.
- Arnold Lobel
- Arnold Lobel
246Cynara
My idea of heaven is an unlimited to-read list and an unlimited amount of time in which to read it.
247stellarexplorer
Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?
-- Browning, famously
-- Browning, famously
248sertolicell
For your info, the forum at UNRV.com posts every month a very comprehensive list of (mainly Roman) new book releases - academic as well as more popular titles:
http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showforum=44
btw, If you are interested in Roman stuff, www.unrv.com is definately a must with thorough book reviews, essays, interviews with well known "Roman" authors such as Philip Matyszak, Ian Hughes, etc.
Check out eg., November/December releases:
Roman Colonies in the First Century of Their Foundation
The Landmark Arrian: The Campaigns of Alexander
Caesars' Wives: Sex, Power, and Politics in the Roman Empire
The Last Pagans of Rome
The Histories (Oxford World's Classics)
The Greek and Roman Myths: A Guide to the Classical Stories
Roman Passions: A History of Pleasure in Imperial Rome
Ancient Rome
Tacitus' Annals (Oxford Approaches to Classical Literature)
Rome in Crisis (Penguin Classics)
Claudius Caesar: Image and Power in the Early Roman Empire
Roman Warfare, 300 B.C. to A.D. 450: The Essential Bibliography
Memory and Mourning: Studies on Roman Death
Kingdoms and Principalities in the Roman Near East (Oriens et Occidens. Studien zu antiken Kulturkontakten und ihrem Nachleben (O&O))
A Most Merry and Illustrated History of the Last Days of Pompeii: With a Brief and Merry Look at Daily Life in the Roman Empire
The Frome Hoard
Rome and China: Comparative Perspectives on Ancient World Empires (Oxford Studies in Early Empires)
http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showforum=44
btw, If you are interested in Roman stuff, www.unrv.com is definately a must with thorough book reviews, essays, interviews with well known "Roman" authors such as Philip Matyszak, Ian Hughes, etc.
Check out eg., November/December releases:
Roman Colonies in the First Century of Their Foundation
The Landmark Arrian: The Campaigns of Alexander
Caesars' Wives: Sex, Power, and Politics in the Roman Empire
The Last Pagans of Rome
The Histories (Oxford World's Classics)
The Greek and Roman Myths: A Guide to the Classical Stories
Roman Passions: A History of Pleasure in Imperial Rome
Ancient Rome
Tacitus' Annals (Oxford Approaches to Classical Literature)
Rome in Crisis (Penguin Classics)
Claudius Caesar: Image and Power in the Early Roman Empire
Roman Warfare, 300 B.C. to A.D. 450: The Essential Bibliography
Memory and Mourning: Studies on Roman Death
Kingdoms and Principalities in the Roman Near East (Oriens et Occidens. Studien zu antiken Kulturkontakten und ihrem Nachleben (O&O))
A Most Merry and Illustrated History of the Last Days of Pompeii: With a Brief and Merry Look at Daily Life in the Roman Empire
The Frome Hoard
Rome and China: Comparative Perspectives on Ancient World Empires (Oxford Studies in Early Empires)
250Garp83
This looks interesting. Anyone know anything about it?
http://www.labyrinthbooks.com/all_detail.aspx?isbn=9780520267022
When they referenced Smyrna all I could imagine was Quintus wandering around with a scroll making notes for his Homer compendium ...
http://www.labyrinthbooks.com/all_detail.aspx?isbn=9780520267022
When they referenced Smyrna all I could imagine was Quintus wandering around with a scroll making notes for his Homer compendium ...
251Nicole_VanK
Only that it's vol 69 of the "Sather Classical Lectures". It sounds fascinating though.
253rcss67
Rome Enters the Greek East is great butt eckstein does repeat himself from book to book. Eckstein and Gruen on one side, Badian and Harris on the other.
254MarysGirl
Here are the latest reviews from American Journal of Archaeology. They've added a discussion feature so folks can comment on the reviews.
The following can be downloaded for free at: http://www.ajaonline.org/bookreviews
American Journal of Archaeology Online Book Reviews (April 2011)
The American Journal of Archaeology publishes quarterly public-access book reviews. These reviews are listed in the table of contents of the respective printed issue of the Journal and are available for free download on the Journal's website (http://www.ajaonline.org/bookreviews). Below is a list of book reviews published in tandem with our printed April 2011 issue (volume 115, number 2). We hope you enjoy.
We are pleased to introduce a new commenting feature that allows for easier discussion of book reviews right on our website. Click the titles below to see each review's page and download the full-text PDFs.
The Editors
The Mediterranean from 50,000 to 25,000 BP: Turning Points and New Directions
Edited by Marta Camps and Carolyn Szmidt
Reviewed by Jamie L. Clark
The 2003 Excavations at Tol-e Baši, Iran: Social Life in a Neolithic Village
By Susan Pollock, Reinhard Bernbeck, and Kamyar Abdi
Reviewed by E.B. Banning
Art and Society in Cyprus from the Bronze Age into the Iron Age
By Joanna S. Smith
Reviewed by Erin Walcek Averett
The Mythology of Kingship in Neo-Assyrian Art
By Mehmet-Ali Ataç
Reviewed by Eleanor Guralnick
The Philistines and Aegean Migration at the End of the Late Bronze Age
By Assaf Yasur-Landau
Reviewed by Saro Wallace
The Necropolis of Bet Guvrin-Eleutheropolis
By Gideon Avni, Uzi Dahari, and Amos Kloner
Reviewed by Danielle Steen Fatkin
Excavations by K.M. Kenyon in Jerusalem 1961–1967. Vol. 5, Discoveries in Hellenistic to Ottoman Jerusalem: Centenary Volume. Kathleen M. Kenyon 1906–1978
By Kay Prag
Reviewed by Oren Gutfeld
The Oxford Handbook of the Bronze Age Aegean
Edited by Eric H. Cline
Reviewed by Halford W. Haskell
The Aigina Treasure: Aegean Bronze Age Jewellery and a Mystery Revisited
By J. Lesley Fitton
Reviewed by Thomas Zimmermann
Kavousi IIA: The Late Minoan IIIC Settlement at Vronda. The Buildings on the Summit
Edited by Leslie Preston Day, Nancy L. Klein, and Lee Ann Turner
Reviewed by Florence Gaignerot
Mycenaean Greece, Mediterranean Commerce, and the Formation of Identity
By Bryan E. Burns
Reviewed by Andrea Vianello
The Archaeology of Tomb A1K1 of Orthi Petra in Eleutherna: The Early Iron Age Pottery
By Antonis Kotsonas
Reviewed by Brice Erickson
The Lower City of Olbia (Sector NGS) in the 6th Century BC to the 4th Century AD
Edited by Nina A. Lejpunskaja, Pia Guldager Bilde, Jakob Munk Højte, Valentina V. Krapivina, and Sergej Kryžickij
Reviewed by Valeriya Kozlovskaya
Komast Dancers in Archaic Greek Art
By Tyler Jo Smith
Reviewed by John H. Oakley
Aspects of Ancient Greek Cult: Context, Ritual and Iconography
Edited by Jesper Tae Jensen, George Hinge, Peter Schultz, and Bronwen Wickkiser
Reviewed by Geoffrey B. Waywell
Mystery Cults of the Ancient World
By Hugh Bowden
Reviewed by Bronwen L. Wickkiser
The Female Portrait Statue in the Greek World
By Sheila Dillon
Reviewed by Peter Schultz
Ceramica, abitati, territorio nella bassa valle del Tevere e Latium Vetus
Edited by Marco Rendeli
Reviewed by P. Gregory Warden
The Urbanisation of Etruria: Funerary Practices and Social Change, 700–600 BC
By Corinna Riva
Reviewed by Marshall Joseph Becker
Bathing in the Roman World
By Fikret Yegül
Reviewed by William Aylward
Hispania and the Roman Mediterranean, AD 100–700: Ceramics and Trade
By Paul Reynolds
Reviewed by A.P. Souter
Gemme dei Civici Musei d'Arte di Verona
By Gemma Sena Chiesa
Reviewed by Martin Henig
The Roman Imperial Mausoleum in Late Antiquity
By Mark J. Johnson
Reviewed by Ann Marie Yasin
The Hoxne Late Roman Treasure: Gold Jewellery and Silver Plate
By Catherine Johns
Reviewed by James Gerrard
The Journal of the Archaeological Institute of America
American Journal of Archaeology
656 Beacon Street
Boston, MA 02215
Contact AJA
The following can be downloaded for free at: http://www.ajaonline.org/bookreviews
American Journal of Archaeology Online Book Reviews (April 2011)
The American Journal of Archaeology publishes quarterly public-access book reviews. These reviews are listed in the table of contents of the respective printed issue of the Journal and are available for free download on the Journal's website (http://www.ajaonline.org/bookreviews). Below is a list of book reviews published in tandem with our printed April 2011 issue (volume 115, number 2). We hope you enjoy.
We are pleased to introduce a new commenting feature that allows for easier discussion of book reviews right on our website. Click the titles below to see each review's page and download the full-text PDFs.
The Editors
The Mediterranean from 50,000 to 25,000 BP: Turning Points and New Directions
Edited by Marta Camps and Carolyn Szmidt
Reviewed by Jamie L. Clark
The 2003 Excavations at Tol-e Baši, Iran: Social Life in a Neolithic Village
By Susan Pollock, Reinhard Bernbeck, and Kamyar Abdi
Reviewed by E.B. Banning
Art and Society in Cyprus from the Bronze Age into the Iron Age
By Joanna S. Smith
Reviewed by Erin Walcek Averett
The Mythology of Kingship in Neo-Assyrian Art
By Mehmet-Ali Ataç
Reviewed by Eleanor Guralnick
The Philistines and Aegean Migration at the End of the Late Bronze Age
By Assaf Yasur-Landau
Reviewed by Saro Wallace
The Necropolis of Bet Guvrin-Eleutheropolis
By Gideon Avni, Uzi Dahari, and Amos Kloner
Reviewed by Danielle Steen Fatkin
Excavations by K.M. Kenyon in Jerusalem 1961–1967. Vol. 5, Discoveries in Hellenistic to Ottoman Jerusalem: Centenary Volume. Kathleen M. Kenyon 1906–1978
By Kay Prag
Reviewed by Oren Gutfeld
The Oxford Handbook of the Bronze Age Aegean
Edited by Eric H. Cline
Reviewed by Halford W. Haskell
The Aigina Treasure: Aegean Bronze Age Jewellery and a Mystery Revisited
By J. Lesley Fitton
Reviewed by Thomas Zimmermann
Kavousi IIA: The Late Minoan IIIC Settlement at Vronda. The Buildings on the Summit
Edited by Leslie Preston Day, Nancy L. Klein, and Lee Ann Turner
Reviewed by Florence Gaignerot
Mycenaean Greece, Mediterranean Commerce, and the Formation of Identity
By Bryan E. Burns
Reviewed by Andrea Vianello
The Archaeology of Tomb A1K1 of Orthi Petra in Eleutherna: The Early Iron Age Pottery
By Antonis Kotsonas
Reviewed by Brice Erickson
The Lower City of Olbia (Sector NGS) in the 6th Century BC to the 4th Century AD
Edited by Nina A. Lejpunskaja, Pia Guldager Bilde, Jakob Munk Højte, Valentina V. Krapivina, and Sergej Kryžickij
Reviewed by Valeriya Kozlovskaya
Komast Dancers in Archaic Greek Art
By Tyler Jo Smith
Reviewed by John H. Oakley
Aspects of Ancient Greek Cult: Context, Ritual and Iconography
Edited by Jesper Tae Jensen, George Hinge, Peter Schultz, and Bronwen Wickkiser
Reviewed by Geoffrey B. Waywell
Mystery Cults of the Ancient World
By Hugh Bowden
Reviewed by Bronwen L. Wickkiser
The Female Portrait Statue in the Greek World
By Sheila Dillon
Reviewed by Peter Schultz
Ceramica, abitati, territorio nella bassa valle del Tevere e Latium Vetus
Edited by Marco Rendeli
Reviewed by P. Gregory Warden
The Urbanisation of Etruria: Funerary Practices and Social Change, 700–600 BC
By Corinna Riva
Reviewed by Marshall Joseph Becker
Bathing in the Roman World
By Fikret Yegül
Reviewed by William Aylward
Hispania and the Roman Mediterranean, AD 100–700: Ceramics and Trade
By Paul Reynolds
Reviewed by A.P. Souter
Gemme dei Civici Musei d'Arte di Verona
By Gemma Sena Chiesa
Reviewed by Martin Henig
The Roman Imperial Mausoleum in Late Antiquity
By Mark J. Johnson
Reviewed by Ann Marie Yasin
The Hoxne Late Roman Treasure: Gold Jewellery and Silver Plate
By Catherine Johns
Reviewed by James Gerrard
The Journal of the Archaeological Institute of America
American Journal of Archaeology
656 Beacon Street
Boston, MA 02215
Contact AJA
255stellarexplorer
Thanks MarysGirl -- some intriguing titles there!
256Feicht
I just stumbled upon this book on Amazon:
Caesar's Army: The Evolution, Composition, Tactics, Equipment, and Battles of the Roman Army
http://www.amazon.com/Caesars-Army-Evolution-Composition-Equipment/dp/0857065742...
Haven't heard anything about it though (and the touchstone won't work for it)...
Caesar's Army: The Evolution, Composition, Tactics, Equipment, and Battles of the Roman Army
http://www.amazon.com/Caesars-Army-Evolution-Composition-Equipment/dp/0857065742...
Haven't heard anything about it though (and the touchstone won't work for it)...
257nathanielcampbell
>256 Feicht:: It's a reprint of a work by a sometime President of the University of Chicago, Harry Pratt Judson. He wrote Caesar's Army in 1888 while he was a prof at the University of Minnesota (see his Wikipedia page).
259rolandperkins
". . .the Touchstones wonʻt work for (ʻCaesarʻs Armyʻ . . ."
(b t w, Iʻve just put the title in brackets, and youʻre seeing the result.)
I believe this failure is traceable to the presence of an apostrophe in the title. The "Search" function isnʻt on speaking terms with apostrophes.
(b t w, Iʻve just put the title in brackets, and youʻre seeing the result.)
I believe this failure is traceable to the presence of an apostrophe in the title. The "Search" function isnʻt on speaking terms with apostrophes.
260rolandperkins
I see now that Caesarʻs Army DOES appear in blue in 257.
--but not in my rendering? Arenʻt my brackets just as good as
nathanielʻs ? (257)
--but not in my rendering? Arenʻt my brackets just as good as
nathanielʻs ? (257)
261AnnieMod
It is a hit or miss with the apostrophes and touchstones - generally they don't work very well together :)
262rolandperkins
". . .generally they donʻt work very well together."
Exactly my experience, AnnieMod. Sometimes they work on a second try -- but not on this recent one (259).
Exactly my experience, AnnieMod. Sometimes they work on a second try -- but not on this recent one (259).
263AnnieMod
When they are behaving like that, I just force them with the work number (number::Title) and all works as a charm.
264nathanielcampbell
Yeah, the reason it worked for me is that I forced the touchstone: 3764605::Caesar's Army
I think the other reason why it might not be working normally is that the title in the record uses the ligatured ae: Cæsar's army. Let's see if that works without forcing the touchstone: Cæsar's army
Yep (I copied and pasted the title from the work page), though ours was not the first to come up, so I had to select it from others.
I think the other reason why it might not be working normally is that the title in the record uses the ligatured ae: Cæsar's army. Let's see if that works without forcing the touchstone: Cæsar's army
Yep (I copied and pasted the title from the work page), though ours was not the first to come up, so I had to select it from others.
265Feicht
I just stumbled upon a new book by Tom Holland In the Shadow of the Sword: The Birth of Islam and the Rise of the Global Arab Empire. I am a huge fan of his, but had actually not heard of this book at all. I ended up picking it up and will post my thoughts whenever I get time to read it.
http://www.amazon.com/In-Shadow-Sword-Global-Empire/dp/0385531354/ref=pd_sim_b_3
In other news, another book I've been ancitipating for over a year has been pushed back AGAIN, to the point of "sometime in the future" status: Luis Silva's The Lusitanian War: Viriathus the Iberian Against Rome :-/
http://www.amazon.com/The-Lusitanian-War-Viriathus-Iberian/dp/159416102X/ref=sr_...
http://www.amazon.com/In-Shadow-Sword-Global-Empire/dp/0385531354/ref=pd_sim_b_3
In other news, another book I've been ancitipating for over a year has been pushed back AGAIN, to the point of "sometime in the future" status: Luis Silva's The Lusitanian War: Viriathus the Iberian Against Rome :-/
http://www.amazon.com/The-Lusitanian-War-Viriathus-Iberian/dp/159416102X/ref=sr_...
266Garp83
Feicht -- I look forward to your report on Holland. Both Persian Fire & "Rubicon" were outstanding!
267Feicht
I will do so after I finish his Forge of Christendom. One thing at a time here :-D
268Garp83
Here's an especially damning review of the Holland book ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/may/04/in-shadow-of-sword-tom-holland
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/may/04/in-shadow-of-sword-tom-holland
269groovykinda
Wow. It makes Holland sound like Jared "it's true because I said it's true" Diamond.
270Garp83
Well I must say Jared Diamond's assertions can generally be quite well defended. Much of his theses are such that when I first read them I wondered why these simply did not occur to me in the first place.
Also I should add that I am a huge fan of Tom Holland -- Persian Fire and "Rubicon" were both outstanding -- and this is only one review. I posted it for the purpose of intellectual discussion.
Also I should add that I am a huge fan of Tom Holland -- Persian Fire and "Rubicon" were both outstanding -- and this is only one review. I posted it for the purpose of intellectual discussion.
271plexica
Tom Holland is a "hot" author, Islam is a "hot" topic, and some agent or pr type made an offer to good to refuse, so of course Holland has to put some "hot" assertions in his book (he may actually believe what he writes, of course, but not necessarily). Maybe his publisher is hoping some fatwa-thrower will improve sales enormously by taking offense. Holland is the Mitchener of our time. He puts out a good read. Unfortunately, most people have no idea what an "intellectual discussion" is.
272plexica
By that I mean that most of Holland's readers will have read not one other item about Islam and will take everything as "the newest scholarship"... like they believe what they read in the newspaper.
273nathanielcampbell
>268 Garp83:: Glen Bowersock is a scholar for whom I have great respect (I've worked with some of his students before), so I am inclined to believe that he wouldn't have written a review as harsh as this without cause. Furthermore, while I am not an expert in the origins of Islam, I have had to do a fair bit of study of it (after all, I have to lecture on it to my freshmen), and if what Bowersock reports of Holland's claims is true, I am inclined to agree with plexica's assessment in 271 and 272. In other words, books like this make my job as a teacher harder, not easier.
(For a better pop survey of the origins of Islam, albeit with an eye towards Spain, I would suggest David Levering Lewis' God's Crucible).
(For a better pop survey of the origins of Islam, albeit with an eye towards Spain, I would suggest David Levering Lewis' God's Crucible).
275groovykinda
>270 Garp83: That's a quote from a biologist friend of mine, referring to The Third Chimpanzee. I'm referring to Diamond's: "Greenlanders didn't eat fish" theory from Collapse. He based it on the lack of fish bones in the midden.
Perhaps they were doing something else with them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_meal
For the record, I really like Holland and intend to read his new book.
Perhaps they were doing something else with them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_meal
For the record, I really like Holland and intend to read his new book.
276Garp83
#274 Reading the reply, excited by the controversy, I now very much want to read the book
#275 I get you. Certainly doesn't sound like this represents a chink in a significant piece of Diamond armor though, does it? Your post seemed to imply that which prompted my response ...
#275 I get you. Certainly doesn't sound like this represents a chink in a significant piece of Diamond armor though, does it? Your post seemed to imply that which prompted my response ...
277cemanuel
# 273 In other words, books like this make my job as a teacher harder, not easier.
OTOH, what he writes might get more people interested in history which IMO is a good thing. I can handle folks being Barbara Tuchman or Alison Weir bad, so long as they aren't William Manchester bad (my medievalism is showing here). I haven't read anything by Holland and have never intended to since I read some reviews of Persian Fire. But there's a place for books like that as long as they aren't TOO bad (same with movies).
BTW, Jared Diamond doesn't write history. He writes sociology. EDIT: I should add that he has some anthropology in there too.
OTOH, what he writes might get more people interested in history which IMO is a good thing. I can handle folks being Barbara Tuchman or Alison Weir bad, so long as they aren't William Manchester bad (my medievalism is showing here). I haven't read anything by Holland and have never intended to since I read some reviews of Persian Fire. But there's a place for books like that as long as they aren't TOO bad (same with movies).
BTW, Jared Diamond doesn't write history. He writes sociology. EDIT: I should add that he has some anthropology in there too.
278Garp83
#277 But Diamond managed to make note of foundational stuff that history "should be" based upon. His theories (or conclusions or what have you) managed to correctly rebut centuries and generations of scholars who pointed to the faux superiority of those who founded the first "civilizations" in the "fertile crescent." Call it what you will, Diamond's insights into the foundation of agricultural civilizations were brilliant -- and spot on!
As for Holland, Persian Fire is a fully documented history of the clash of Greeks and Persians that while supported by academic research also actually happens to be readable, which flies in the face of most academic writing which, as David Foster Wallace trenchantly once noted is typically “appalling –pompous, abstruse, claustral, inflated, euphuistic, pleonastic, solecistic, sesquipidelian, Heliogabaline, occluded, obscure, jargon-ridden, empty: resplendently dead.”
As for Holland, Persian Fire is a fully documented history of the clash of Greeks and Persians that while supported by academic research also actually happens to be readable, which flies in the face of most academic writing which, as David Foster Wallace trenchantly once noted is typically “appalling –pompous, abstruse, claustral, inflated, euphuistic, pleonastic, solecistic, sesquipidelian, Heliogabaline, occluded, obscure, jargon-ridden, empty: resplendently dead.”
279Feicht
Yep, all this controversy makes me want to get to In the Shadow of the Sword even more :-D
As it stands, I'm still somewhere in the middle of Forge of Christendom, so it may be a couple weeks yet. Although I must say, regarding the idea that some publisher planted the seed for the former in Holland's ear... there is quite a bit on Islam (including some origin stuff) in the latter, so I tend to think the idea for writing a full-blown book on the topic proper probably came to him while writing "Forge..."
And by the way, Holland's rebuttal of Bowersock is masterfully done, I must say. It is always sort of refreshing to see a well-crafted intellectual exchange of disagreements, juxtaposed with the "Well... yeah whatever, you suck!" stuff you seem to see everywhere else on a daily basis :-P
As it stands, I'm still somewhere in the middle of Forge of Christendom, so it may be a couple weeks yet. Although I must say, regarding the idea that some publisher planted the seed for the former in Holland's ear... there is quite a bit on Islam (including some origin stuff) in the latter, so I tend to think the idea for writing a full-blown book on the topic proper probably came to him while writing "Forge..."
And by the way, Holland's rebuttal of Bowersock is masterfully done, I must say. It is always sort of refreshing to see a well-crafted intellectual exchange of disagreements, juxtaposed with the "Well... yeah whatever, you suck!" stuff you seem to see everywhere else on a daily basis :-P
280Garp83
Feicht, you suck ... LOL
While we are on the topic of intellectual rebuttals, no sooner had I inhaled Guns, Germs & Steel some years back than I was reading Wade's "Before the Dawn" where he finds a way to respectfully but forcefully dispute ("nurture vs nature") some key element Diamond propounded. I can't recall the specifics, but I was impressed nontheless by Wade's articulate approach, even if I don't think he fully won me over to his side of it. This stuff can be much fun ...
One of the best things about LT too ... I love the contrasting views on subjects that I rarely can find someone in "real life" to even chat about ...
While we are on the topic of intellectual rebuttals, no sooner had I inhaled Guns, Germs & Steel some years back than I was reading Wade's "Before the Dawn" where he finds a way to respectfully but forcefully dispute ("nurture vs nature") some key element Diamond propounded. I can't recall the specifics, but I was impressed nontheless by Wade's articulate approach, even if I don't think he fully won me over to his side of it. This stuff can be much fun ...
One of the best things about LT too ... I love the contrasting views on subjects that I rarely can find someone in "real life" to even chat about ...
281cemanuel
#278 - I'm not arguing that Diamond's theories don't have some validity. However it isn't history and shouldn't be confused as such. And nobody respectable has propounded the theories of genetic superiority he refutes for generations. Various ethnic groups have tried and there's nothing wrong with attacking that kind of garbage at every opportunity but the idea that there is something inherently superior in Western Europeans should have died with Hitler (though it has popped up in other places, as recently as in Serbia). I could pick a lot of nits but it's a good book.
But it isn't history. I am with you on academic writing, less so on selective use of source material which is what the reviews have said about Holland - I don't plan on reading it to find out for myself.
But it isn't history. I am with you on academic writing, less so on selective use of source material which is what the reviews have said about Holland - I don't plan on reading it to find out for myself.
282Garp83
#281 I get you, valid points.
What Holland manages to achieve is to create the "feel" of the times he chronicles, something few historians on the academic or popular side can deliver. I don't know about the selective sources assertion -- I don't know enough ancient Rome to answer that for "Rubicon." As for "Persian Fire," I thought that he was one of the few who didn't rely almost entirely on Herodotus. I'm curious enough to read some of these negative reviews for myself.
What Holland manages to achieve is to create the "feel" of the times he chronicles, something few historians on the academic or popular side can deliver. I don't know about the selective sources assertion -- I don't know enough ancient Rome to answer that for "Rubicon." As for "Persian Fire," I thought that he was one of the few who didn't rely almost entirely on Herodotus. I'm curious enough to read some of these negative reviews for myself.
283Feicht
Actually speaking of Wade's book... and the "racial superiority" b.s.... if I'm honest, one of the things that really bothered me about his book was the fact that he would intermittently drop little tidbits apparently suggesting that different "races" had different inherent advantages over one another (the one that comes to mind is that Europeans are somehow more artistic than other races, apparently based entirely on the extant cave paintings at Lascaux and elsewhere). I do not by any means suggest that he did this with any intent of malice, but it definitely struck me as a sort of archaic viewpoint which seemed to mar his otherwise masterful book.
284Garp83
#283 Feicht -- I remember that vividly and was equally bothered by it because I think it marred what was otherwise a masterpiece of DNA studies of human diffusion out of Africa.
Goes to my point that however we might abhor such thinking, the belief that somehow Europeans had an "edge" over others remains alive and well in many quarters, if often expressed more subtly than it once was.
My first thought when I read this in Wade was that there are probably many Lascaux's across the globe that have been long lost to time or perhaps remain undiscovered. My second was a reminder of Diamond's point that there are many ways to measure intelligence and the fact that a hunter-gatherer must operate with the ability to identify and know what to do with hundreds of various flora and fauna in order to survive should not be overlooked. My third was that these inferences were after all bad science, for not enough time could have passed for one group to have obtained an intellectual evolutionary advantage over the other.
Goes to my point that however we might abhor such thinking, the belief that somehow Europeans had an "edge" over others remains alive and well in many quarters, if often expressed more subtly than it once was.
My first thought when I read this in Wade was that there are probably many Lascaux's across the globe that have been long lost to time or perhaps remain undiscovered. My second was a reminder of Diamond's point that there are many ways to measure intelligence and the fact that a hunter-gatherer must operate with the ability to identify and know what to do with hundreds of various flora and fauna in order to survive should not be overlooked. My third was that these inferences were after all bad science, for not enough time could have passed for one group to have obtained an intellectual evolutionary advantage over the other.
285Feicht
Yep, exactly. Who knows how many Lascauxs (Lascauses? Laskoi? whatever) there even were in Europe that have been lost to the sands of time, let alone across rest of the globe. But yeah, I do believe the Diamond point is valid as well; "lack of" art, literature, etc in no way implies that any given population is any less intelligent than another.
286Nicole_VanK
Yeah, assumption by lack of evidence - never the most impressive thing. For all we know "Lucy" could have carried her watercolours with her. ;-)
287groovykinda
"Yeah, assumption by lack of evidence," is exactly what I was taking Diamond to task for.
According to Diamond: There's no fish bones in the midden around the houses. Therefore Greenlanders didn't eat fish. They didn't eat fish because they thought that only socially inferior
people ate fish. They all starved to death rather than learn to eat fish.
Or maybe there's no fish bones because the Greenlanders, like every other farming society with access to fish, fed the remains to their cattle.
You may argue that it's sociology rather than history. But you still have to get your facts straight and not make assumptions based on lack of evidence.
I can't speak for the rest of Collapse. I was only interested in his take on Greenland.
Anyway, if we keep going on like this (and it's a fascinating discussion!) we may have to start a new "New Books of Note" thread.
According to Diamond: There's no fish bones in the midden around the houses. Therefore Greenlanders didn't eat fish. They didn't eat fish because they thought that only socially inferior
people ate fish. They all starved to death rather than learn to eat fish.
Or maybe there's no fish bones because the Greenlanders, like every other farming society with access to fish, fed the remains to their cattle.
You may argue that it's sociology rather than history. But you still have to get your facts straight and not make assumptions based on lack of evidence.
I can't speak for the rest of Collapse. I was only interested in his take on Greenland.
Anyway, if we keep going on like this (and it's a fascinating discussion!) we may have to start a new "New Books of Note" thread.
288stellarexplorer
>281 cemanuel:, etc. "It isn't history"
Leaving Diamond's work aside for the moment, I'm a little unclear on what precisely the bounds are these days on what constitutes history. Clearly there are many sources of information available now that were not available to previous generations of historians: data from archeology, paleontology, physics, etc. for example. As such, there is more cross-over between disciplines. So where do we say a particular means of uncovering information about the past is history, and where it is not?
Leaving Diamond's work aside for the moment, I'm a little unclear on what precisely the bounds are these days on what constitutes history. Clearly there are many sources of information available now that were not available to previous generations of historians: data from archeology, paleontology, physics, etc. for example. As such, there is more cross-over between disciplines. So where do we say a particular means of uncovering information about the past is history, and where it is not?
289cemanuel
One of the reasons I wanted to be sure and mention that Diamond isn't history is that because if it was supposed to be history, it was terrible. Horrible use of evidence, broad assumptions not based on any sort of critical analysis, yadayadayada. I had to turn a little mental switch while reading it to remind myself that it isn't history.
I'm far less able to critique the "ologies" than history however the norms are different (I did take a few courses in college). Sociology is supposed to take these broader trends, themes and look at history with a much broader scope to develop theories of Human social development.
Historians should try to stay away from these sorts of broad themes. This isn't to say they shouldn't try to analyze cause and effect based on evidence, or develop historical models, though that has its own dangers. Then you have to figure out when the line is crossed. Sometimes it's tough for me, then I run across someone like Victor Davis Hanson where it's easy. Ultimately for me figuring out what is one of the "ologies" is sort of like what a congressman had to say about porn, "I know it when I see it."
I'm far less able to critique the "ologies" than history however the norms are different (I did take a few courses in college). Sociology is supposed to take these broader trends, themes and look at history with a much broader scope to develop theories of Human social development.
Historians should try to stay away from these sorts of broad themes. This isn't to say they shouldn't try to analyze cause and effect based on evidence, or develop historical models, though that has its own dangers. Then you have to figure out when the line is crossed. Sometimes it's tough for me, then I run across someone like Victor Davis Hanson where it's easy. Ultimately for me figuring out what is one of the "ologies" is sort of like what a congressman had to say about porn, "I know it when I see it."
290cemanuel
#288 - My easy answer is that history must be based on a critical assessment of evidence. Then again, folks have written books based on that statement.
I can provide specific examples where folks have done very fine archaeological work and messed up fairly badly when they venture into history (some archaeologists do fine). Here's one example: http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/wwl/koepke%20baten%20two%20millennia.pdf
Unfortunately this version doesn't have the tables in it which are cool - if you have access to it, the full article appeared in the 2005 European Review of Economic History 9, pp. 61-95, titled, "“The Biological Standard of Living in Europe During the Last Two Millennia” by Nikola Koepke and Joerg Baten.
Their analysis of skeletal remains is interesting and well done but when they venture into causality they get in trouble.
Anyway, increasingly there's been an interdisciplinary approach to history. Some of that is really good. Nothing wrong with incorporating all of the evidence you can, so long as the folks charged with writing about it are capable of doing the analysis, or at least of verifying the validity of the analysis. Michael McCormick has written several articles on this recently.
I can provide specific examples where folks have done very fine archaeological work and messed up fairly badly when they venture into history (some archaeologists do fine). Here's one example: http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/wwl/koepke%20baten%20two%20millennia.pdf
Unfortunately this version doesn't have the tables in it which are cool - if you have access to it, the full article appeared in the 2005 European Review of Economic History 9, pp. 61-95, titled, "“The Biological Standard of Living in Europe During the Last Two Millennia” by Nikola Koepke and Joerg Baten.
Their analysis of skeletal remains is interesting and well done but when they venture into causality they get in trouble.
Anyway, increasingly there's been an interdisciplinary approach to history. Some of that is really good. Nothing wrong with incorporating all of the evidence you can, so long as the folks charged with writing about it are capable of doing the analysis, or at least of verifying the validity of the analysis. Michael McCormick has written several articles on this recently.
291Garp83
Cemanuel -- I both agree and disagree with you -- (not surprising given our several years of LT chats LOL) -- as to strong foundational “factology” I am right there with you, but on the other hand ancient history is frequently about choosing your "facts" and your "sources." Most of our history of Classical Greece is based upon Herodotus and Thucydides. How reliable are they? How much do other sources sustain them? Almost everything we know with any kind of basis about ancient Greece is really only about ancient Athens. For years traditional history referred to a Dorian invasion to the Peloponnesus , but there remains absolutely zero archaeological evidence for such a thing. These are only three questions about one part of a complex subject, but big questions nevertheless.
As for history, I am all about expanding that "heading" to include much more than we would traditionally include -- as David Christian does in "Maps of Time" when he combines cosmology, astronomy, chemistry, physics, geology, anthropology, archaeology and a host of other disciplines to tell the human story from scratch. And today there is so much science -- paleo-climatology is the most exciting in my opinion. So I'm quite content to look at the whole thing with more flexibility. In that case, when you go back before written records to where the physical evidence is scanty, you must make sweeping conclusions based upon what you do know, while of course acknowledging that this is subject to change. Physical anthropology is all about that and that is after all as much “history” as Washington crossing the Delaware.
History has very much been evolving as a discipline during the past two decades in ways that no one could have imagined when I was a kid in the 1960's and we studied "big men" and "big civilizations." There may be some abuses here and there, but I think that evolution is a very, very welcome one. Now the various sciences can take us to the next level of that evolution.
As for history, I am all about expanding that "heading" to include much more than we would traditionally include -- as David Christian does in "Maps of Time" when he combines cosmology, astronomy, chemistry, physics, geology, anthropology, archaeology and a host of other disciplines to tell the human story from scratch. And today there is so much science -- paleo-climatology is the most exciting in my opinion. So I'm quite content to look at the whole thing with more flexibility. In that case, when you go back before written records to where the physical evidence is scanty, you must make sweeping conclusions based upon what you do know, while of course acknowledging that this is subject to change. Physical anthropology is all about that and that is after all as much “history” as Washington crossing the Delaware.
History has very much been evolving as a discipline during the past two decades in ways that no one could have imagined when I was a kid in the 1960's and we studied "big men" and "big civilizations." There may be some abuses here and there, but I think that evolution is a very, very welcome one. Now the various sciences can take us to the next level of that evolution.
292groovykinda
~290-I agree with you. "History must be based on a critical assessment of evidence."
I liken it to being on a jury. You're presented with the evidence, much of it biased, all of it filtered. You have to figure out what happened, based on that evidence.
Too often I've been on juries where members arrive at a conclusion and throw out or distort any evidenced that contradicts their position.
If sociology is supposed to "look at history with a much broader scope to develop theories of Human social development," then those theories should grow from the evidence. And those making the theories should be held to the same standard of accuracy and fairness as historians.
~288- "So where do we say a particular means of uncovering information about the past is history, and where it is not?"
I can't imagine any means of uncovering information that would not be history, short of pseudoscience.
"I was channeling the Emperor Vespasian the other day, and he told me the Colesium was a signaling device for extraterrestrials! But we got it wrong and they blew up Vesuvius!"
I liken it to being on a jury. You're presented with the evidence, much of it biased, all of it filtered. You have to figure out what happened, based on that evidence.
Too often I've been on juries where members arrive at a conclusion and throw out or distort any evidenced that contradicts their position.
If sociology is supposed to "look at history with a much broader scope to develop theories of Human social development," then those theories should grow from the evidence. And those making the theories should be held to the same standard of accuracy and fairness as historians.
~288- "So where do we say a particular means of uncovering information about the past is history, and where it is not?"
I can't imagine any means of uncovering information that would not be history, short of pseudoscience.
"I was channeling the Emperor Vespasian the other day, and he told me the Colesium was a signaling device for extraterrestrials! But we got it wrong and they blew up Vesuvius!"
293stellarexplorer
>289 cemanuel:. So there's no disagreement about legitimacy of sources. For example, if DNA evidence indicates African populations split from non-African populations 60,000 years ago, we can debate the reliability of molecular clocks, but we're agreeing that's history. I'm sure reasonable people will still differ in good faith on interpretation of evidence.
294cemanuel
#293 - I'm with you though I'm sure there will be folks who will argue that history begins with the written record. I don't happen to care for that perspective myself, but there's a sizable number of folks who do.
295cemanuel
In that case, when you go back before written records to where the physical evidence is scanty, you must make sweeping conclusions based upon what you do know, while of course acknowledging that this is subject to change. Physical anthropology is all about that and that is after all as much “history” as Washington crossing the Delaware.
No it isn't - making broad, sweeping generalities based on insufficient evidence is not history. If the evidence is insufficient the historian should say, "We don't know enough to say with any certainty." If he or she chooses to offer plausible possibilities based on reasoned conjecture, that's fine so long as he or she identifies the conjecture as such. A social scientist is concerned with systems and theories and looks for evidence that fits within the system/theory. The historian has to examine what fits, what doesn't fit, and realize what isn't there. Completely different methodology.
Anthropology isn't history. Sociology isn't history. They follow different rules and make different uses of evidence. History can be a component of sociology and contribute to it (same with anthro). That does not make the the two terms synonyms.
No it isn't - making broad, sweeping generalities based on insufficient evidence is not history. If the evidence is insufficient the historian should say, "We don't know enough to say with any certainty." If he or she chooses to offer plausible possibilities based on reasoned conjecture, that's fine so long as he or she identifies the conjecture as such. A social scientist is concerned with systems and theories and looks for evidence that fits within the system/theory. The historian has to examine what fits, what doesn't fit, and realize what isn't there. Completely different methodology.
Anthropology isn't history. Sociology isn't history. They follow different rules and make different uses of evidence. History can be a component of sociology and contribute to it (same with anthro). That does not make the the two terms synonyms.
296groovykinda
Yes, but if your sociological theory doesn't fit with the historical facts, aren't you obligated to modify it?
297Garp83
#295 "If he or she chooses to offer plausible possibilities based on reasoned conjecture, that's fine so long as he or she identifies the conjecture as such."
Agreed. Of course. The scholar that fails to underscore that caveat does a great disservice to any discipline.
But I think that is just as much the case in traditional history as in its non-traditional cousins. Basing ancient Greek history upon Herodotus is to make questionable sweeping generalizations and the by-the-ways are typically not offered in the footnotes or the text. And I can't tell you how many accounts of the Persian Wars that I have read that are based primarily upon Herodotus. Even worse, how many cite Plutarch in their grad school papers? I certainly have. Are Plutarch's "lives" worth a damn? I have no fucking clue ... LOL
I don't know what you should call Guns, Germs & Steel but I don't call it sociology which is a discipline that, like you, makes me a bit nervous. Diamond's book does focus a great deal on neolithic societies -- you can say that is not history and some would agree and others would not. I would say the study of neoloithic societies is indeed history but you could dispute that and I would respect that dispute. My point is we simply know very little that we can call concrete evidence about neolithic societies. Very, very little. So when Brian Fagan asserts that the Younger-Dryas event forced large settled groups who had lived off the fat of the land to focus on agriculture or starve, we can say it is a sweeping generalization with little evidence, but a damned good theory at the same time that has a good deal of merit.
I think at the end of the day I am willing to allow for history to serve as a wider net than you are, but that's okay ... it is not a zero sum game after all.
Agreed. Of course. The scholar that fails to underscore that caveat does a great disservice to any discipline.
But I think that is just as much the case in traditional history as in its non-traditional cousins. Basing ancient Greek history upon Herodotus is to make questionable sweeping generalizations and the by-the-ways are typically not offered in the footnotes or the text. And I can't tell you how many accounts of the Persian Wars that I have read that are based primarily upon Herodotus. Even worse, how many cite Plutarch in their grad school papers? I certainly have. Are Plutarch's "lives" worth a damn? I have no fucking clue ... LOL
I don't know what you should call Guns, Germs & Steel but I don't call it sociology which is a discipline that, like you, makes me a bit nervous. Diamond's book does focus a great deal on neolithic societies -- you can say that is not history and some would agree and others would not. I would say the study of neoloithic societies is indeed history but you could dispute that and I would respect that dispute. My point is we simply know very little that we can call concrete evidence about neolithic societies. Very, very little. So when Brian Fagan asserts that the Younger-Dryas event forced large settled groups who had lived off the fat of the land to focus on agriculture or starve, we can say it is a sweeping generalization with little evidence, but a damned good theory at the same time that has a good deal of merit.
I think at the end of the day I am willing to allow for history to serve as a wider net than you are, but that's okay ... it is not a zero sum game after all.
298cemanuel
#296 - My knowledge of sociology is very scanty so I don't want to get into this. However I'll offer this statement (do we need a new thread?) to promote discussion:
There are no facts in history. Only evidence.
There are no facts in history. Only evidence.
299cemanuel
#297 - GGS is a book where Diamond develops and discusses social theories. It's sociology.
EDIT: That's overly simplistic and does Diamond a disservice. I should say it's primarily sociology since that's the main topic, but it has some history in it, some anthropology, some agronomy, etc. Still a good book and well-argued.
EDIT: That's overly simplistic and does Diamond a disservice. I should say it's primarily sociology since that's the main topic, but it has some history in it, some anthropology, some agronomy, etc. Still a good book and well-argued.
300Garp83
Maybe a new thread might be a good idea. I'm certainly interested in the discussion.
As for -- "There are no facts in history. Only evidence." -- I would say: yes, but after all there is often just so little evidence, especially for the ancient world. Evidence MUST remain the foundation, but what we construct upon it can frequently rely so little on real evidence in the way we would like to use that term that we would have nothing but a bare floor if that were to be our strict building code.
Understand I am not arguing for ignoring evidence nor suggesting that it is anything but irresponsible to fail to note conjecture when conjecture is what it is, but I am insisting that quite frequently we have little more than that conjecture to hold our floor down, never mind construct those four walls that go up next.
As for -- "There are no facts in history. Only evidence." -- I would say: yes, but after all there is often just so little evidence, especially for the ancient world. Evidence MUST remain the foundation, but what we construct upon it can frequently rely so little on real evidence in the way we would like to use that term that we would have nothing but a bare floor if that were to be our strict building code.
Understand I am not arguing for ignoring evidence nor suggesting that it is anything but irresponsible to fail to note conjecture when conjecture is what it is, but I am insisting that quite frequently we have little more than that conjecture to hold our floor down, never mind construct those four walls that go up next.
301Feicht
There may be no such thing as historical facts, merely evidence... except for the indisputable historical fact that Herodotus' bastard Anatolian Greek is vastly superior to the Athenian variety!
**dodges chairs, books and/or bullets**
**dodges chairs, books and/or bullets**
302cemanuel
#300 - I doubt many historians, at least those going back more than a couple of hundred years, have been able to avoid reaching conclusions on scanty evidence. I agree, sometimes they have to, or there are two conflicting pieces of seemingly equal validity. The danger is when evidence is just too thin to make any conclusion and someone makes it anyway. There have been plenty of long running errors that stood for centuries because nobody could find evidence to refute something and once someone really looked at it discovered there wasn't any real evidence in the first place.
The only thing that bugs me more (circular reasoning is about equal) is when a historian writes an appeal to logic when he or she is appealing to our logic, as if we and someone who lived 2,000 years ago share the same background and upbringing which would result in nearly identical mental processes, responses to stimuli, share a worldview, etc. That drives me batty, probably because I've been sucked in by it more than once.
The only thing that bugs me more (circular reasoning is about equal) is when a historian writes an appeal to logic when he or she is appealing to our logic, as if we and someone who lived 2,000 years ago share the same background and upbringing which would result in nearly identical mental processes, responses to stimuli, share a worldview, etc. That drives me batty, probably because I've been sucked in by it more than once.
303Garp83
#302 Indeed. This is often the case when modern historians try to explain the ancients in terms of our contemporary human experience. Drives me batty too!
304rolandperkins
I wonʻt throw anything at you for saying (301) that Herodotusʻs Ionian was superior to the Attic Greek that the majority of all surviving classical Greek writers, Athenian or not, used, and which became the basis of the koine that was something of a "world language" by New Testament Times. Perhaps one of my professors, Sterling Dow, would.
Oddly, Herodotus did not write in the main dialect of his own Dorian city, Halicarnassus. He probably thought of Ionian the way we think of "standard language," and Dorian as a dialect. If Ionian is a dialect, Attic could even be called a dialect OF a dialect, since it is probably derived from an older form of Ionian--not because Attica was settled by Ionians, but because prehistoric Athenians settled Ionia.
.
Speculating on what a beginning Greek class could read instead of the traditional Anabasis of Xen ophon, Prof. Dow said Herodotus would be a possibility --provided that the publisher would get it translated into Attic! Over all, though, I think he was a better than average language teacher.
Oddly, Herodotus did not write in the main dialect of his own Dorian city, Halicarnassus. He probably thought of Ionian the way we think of "standard language," and Dorian as a dialect. If Ionian is a dialect, Attic could even be called a dialect OF a dialect, since it is probably derived from an older form of Ionian--not because Attica was settled by Ionians, but because prehistoric Athenians settled Ionia.
.
Speculating on what a beginning Greek class could read instead of the traditional Anabasis of Xen ophon, Prof. Dow said Herodotus would be a possibility --provided that the publisher would get it translated into Attic! Over all, though, I think he was a better than average language teacher.
305groovykinda
>298 cemanuel:: "There are no facts in history. Only evidence."
Reminds me of the Futurama episode: "A Clockwork Origin."
"And I remind you that evolution is merely a theory. Like gravity, or the shape of the Earth."
Reminds me of the Futurama episode: "A Clockwork Origin."
"And I remind you that evolution is merely a theory. Like gravity, or the shape of the Earth."
307plexica
Why write history at all? It's a process of finding - or inventing - a rationale for Identity. I like David Lowenthal's title: "The Past is a Foreign Country" because it sounds like he puts the study of the past in the same relation to us as a journey or quest mission. I haven't laid hands on the actual book yet so it may be quite different. Writers like Durand or Toynbee spend a lot of effort trying to make people better than they are as if - as historians - they would be unbearably disappointed to find that people are lacking morals, purpose or progress. I am wondering what is thought to be the distinction between "evidence" and "facts"?
308Nicole_VanK
Facts are things you can check beyond even reasonable doubt. For example: that Plato said (well, wrote) there once was such a thing as Atlantis is fact. However, concerning Atlantis itself, his statements are evidence - of a sort that wouldn't hold up in any court (hearsay), but still.
309stellarexplorer
Facts rely on good evidence. Though I must admit, there are times I doubt the existence of facts.
310rolandperkins
"Concerning ATLANTIS ITSELF (Platoʻs) statements are evidence -- of a sort that wouldnʻt hold up in any court (hearsay). . . (308) (emphasis added)
Interestingly Plato, in Timaeus uses the same phrase (which I have put in caps) that you use, Barking Matt. His statement of the destruction of Atlantis is not in his own voice, and is mentioned only in passing, almost as a mere afterthought. The speaker is a supposedly wise* Egyptian talking to an Athenian, and his main point is that, in a long-past war between Atlantis and Athens
"all YOUR forces" were destroyed (i.e. all the Athenian forces) --oh, yes, and Atlantis, too --and by this destruction he seems seems to have meant a Biblical-style gigantic flood or tsunami.
It was natural for Plato to think that the Athens of thousands of years before his time probably had an overseas empire for which they had to fight, just as the Athens of his own time did. As has been brought out in another thread here, the Ancient Mediterranean world, in thinking about the past was not much concerned with
HOW LONG AGO something happened. "Out of living memory" was "a LONG time ago" whether it was 100 years ago or 1,000. Historians of an esoteric bent in our own times have this same tendency to shrug off the century-long or milennium-long complications of Chronology.
Modern historians have usually accepted that there was
a real Atlantis,** eventually destroyed in a natural (not SUPERnatural) disaster. Some think that it was on an
Aegean Island: Thera#; those more skeptical of modern Archaeologyʻs insights say it was
somewhere closer to Athens than "beyond the Pillars of Hercules" ( i. e. beyond Gibraltar) where Platoʻs Egyptian
informant places it, but that we donʻt know exactly where.
You are right to distinguish between the fact of a factʻs being written or spoke about, and the actual substance of truth or factuality: . . ."Plato said (well, wrote) that there once was
such a thing as Atlantis is fact. . . ." (308)
*Th Egyptian reminds the Athenian that Greeks are
"like children", where anything historical is concerned, whereas Egyptians are the "adults" of historical thought.
Plato no doubt was aware that Athensʻs Mediterranean seaborne empire didnʻt begin yesterday or last week, so it was easy for him to believe it could have started "a LONG time ago".
# Modern name: Santorini.
** r eal Atlantis: Atlantisʻs Pacific counterpart, "Mu"
has not acquired any such acceptance in
serious historiography.
Interestingly Plato, in Timaeus uses the same phrase (which I have put in caps) that you use, Barking Matt. His statement of the destruction of Atlantis is not in his own voice, and is mentioned only in passing, almost as a mere afterthought. The speaker is a supposedly wise* Egyptian talking to an Athenian, and his main point is that, in a long-past war between Atlantis and Athens
"all YOUR forces" were destroyed (i.e. all the Athenian forces) --oh, yes, and Atlantis, too --and by this destruction he seems seems to have meant a Biblical-style gigantic flood or tsunami.
It was natural for Plato to think that the Athens of thousands of years before his time probably had an overseas empire for which they had to fight, just as the Athens of his own time did. As has been brought out in another thread here, the Ancient Mediterranean world, in thinking about the past was not much concerned with
HOW LONG AGO something happened. "Out of living memory" was "a LONG time ago" whether it was 100 years ago or 1,000. Historians of an esoteric bent in our own times have this same tendency to shrug off the century-long or milennium-long complications of Chronology.
Modern historians have usually accepted that there was
a real Atlantis,** eventually destroyed in a natural (not SUPERnatural) disaster. Some think that it was on an
Aegean Island: Thera#; those more skeptical of modern Archaeologyʻs insights say it was
somewhere closer to Athens than "beyond the Pillars of Hercules" ( i. e. beyond Gibraltar) where Platoʻs Egyptian
informant places it, but that we donʻt know exactly where.
You are right to distinguish between the fact of a factʻs being written or spoke about, and the actual substance of truth or factuality: . . ."Plato said (well, wrote) that there once was
such a thing as Atlantis is fact. . . ." (308)
*Th Egyptian reminds the Athenian that Greeks are
"like children", where anything historical is concerned, whereas Egyptians are the "adults" of historical thought.
Plato no doubt was aware that Athensʻs Mediterranean seaborne empire didnʻt begin yesterday or last week, so it was easy for him to believe it could have started "a LONG time ago".
# Modern name: Santorini.
** r eal Atlantis: Atlantisʻs Pacific counterpart, "Mu"
has not acquired any such acceptance in
serious historiography.
311cemanuel
#308 has it - You can't absolutely prove anything historical. You can't stick it in a test tube and analyze it. You can't recreate the identical conditions and make it happen again.
It's mostly a useful tool for discussion. The chances that the statement, "World War II happened" is false is infinitesimal. But that makes the statement highly valid, not a fact.
There's the thought that when people label something as a fact or the truth, or when they read something labeled that way, they become less open minded, less willing to look for alternatives than when it's labeled in a less authoritative way.
It's mostly a useful tool for discussion. The chances that the statement, "World War II happened" is false is infinitesimal. But that makes the statement highly valid, not a fact.
There's the thought that when people label something as a fact or the truth, or when they read something labeled that way, they become less open minded, less willing to look for alternatives than when it's labeled in a less authoritative way.
312Garp83
#310 Roland -- re: "Modern historians have usually accepted that there was
a real Atlantis" -- I have never seen that there is such a consensus. Quite the opposite I think. Have I overlooked something?
a real Atlantis" -- I have never seen that there is such a consensus. Quite the opposite I think. Have I overlooked something?
313rolandperkins
"Have I overlooked something (about consensus
on Atlantis) (312)
I guess I should have said not "historians" but classicists, and maybe, within that category, have limited it to those who specialize in
Archaeology. I didnʻt mean that those who aspired to writing World History, e.g. H. G. Wells accepted a real Atlantis. What the moderns have mainly wanted to bring out is that the real Atlantis must have been an Aegean site, not one in the almost mythical Atlantic where Plato
places it.
I was very influenced by what it brought to
mind when I first read (in a popular author, not a specialist) that there is absolutely no historical evidence
for "The Lost Continent of Mu" (as forwarded by Churchward, and I started thinking "what a contrast to historiansʻ attitude toward Atlantis!"
Iʻm thinking of looking into this further, to see if I exaggerated what acceptance there is of the "real Atlantis" concept. Also, to review Platoʻs Critias. the other Platonic source about Atlantis.
on Atlantis) (312)
I guess I should have said not "historians" but classicists, and maybe, within that category, have limited it to those who specialize in
Archaeology. I didnʻt mean that those who aspired to writing World History, e.g. H. G. Wells accepted a real Atlantis. What the moderns have mainly wanted to bring out is that the real Atlantis must have been an Aegean site, not one in the almost mythical Atlantic where Plato
places it.
I was very influenced by what it brought to
mind when I first read (in a popular author, not a specialist) that there is absolutely no historical evidence
for "The Lost Continent of Mu" (as forwarded by Churchward, and I started thinking "what a contrast to historiansʻ attitude toward Atlantis!"
Iʻm thinking of looking into this further, to see if I exaggerated what acceptance there is of the "real Atlantis" concept. Also, to review Platoʻs Critias. the other Platonic source about Atlantis.
314Nicole_VanK
Right, the Thera incident. Makes sense, to some extent, but doesn't agree with what Plato was saying (or, if you wish, quoting) - neither concerning place nor timeline.
Of course that doesn't mean the Atlantis concept was unfounded - just that, by the time of Plato, they didn't have their facts altogether straight.
Of course that doesn't mean the Atlantis concept was unfounded - just that, by the time of Plato, they didn't have their facts altogether straight.
315Garp83
Don't get me wrong, I was quite seduced by the Atlantis concept at one time -- as I was by unknown ancient influences in the Giza pyramid as per Peter Thompkins, and the "Lost Cause" myth of the south. The old theory of Thera was fascinating but yes the timeline was way wrong, as was the theory that Thera's destruction was the downfall of the Minoans. Perhaps Plato was referring to a real place, although the paradisical society he hearkens back to has to be fanciful.
Roland, my question was directed as to whether there are other references beyond Plato that have drawn historians to give it more credence. I respect your posts very much, so my comments are not meant negatively -- just wondered if there was indeed something I have overlooked.
Roland, my question was directed as to whether there are other references beyond Plato that have drawn historians to give it more credence. I respect your posts very much, so my comments are not meant negatively -- just wondered if there was indeed something I have overlooked.
316alaudacorax
#315 - If anyone's interested, there's a really good overview of all this Atlantis business in Peter James's The Sunken Kingdom: The Atlantis Mystery Solved (a book seriously handicapped by the expectations we've come to have about such a title). He gives what looks like a pretty thorough account of all the myths and theories down through the ages - from the respected mainstream (in their time) to the seriously crackpot but popular. It's quite fascinating.
If I remember him correctly, he didn't find anything that can't be traced back to those references in Plato.
His 'solution', by the way, though not in anyway proven (which I think he admits himself), is rooted in reality.
If I remember him correctly, he didn't find anything that can't be traced back to those references in Plato.
His 'solution', by the way, though not in anyway proven (which I think he admits himself), is rooted in reality.
317groovykinda
#311-"You can't absolutely prove anything historical. You can't stick it in a test tube and analyze it. You can't recreate the identical conditions and make it happen again."
So, I guess your birth was just a theory?
You're confusing history with science.
And, by the way, that's the same argument creationists use.
So, I guess your birth was just a theory?
You're confusing history with science.
And, by the way, that's the same argument creationists use.
318Garp83
I got In the Shadow of the Sword for Father's Day -- on to the big TBR pile. Eventually I will return to comment here upon it ...
320cemanuel
#317 - I'm not confusing history and science at all. It's you who appear confused, otherwise you wouldn't try using identical language to describe two very different processes and methodologies. You can arrive at facts in the "hard" sciences. You can test, validate and verify various theories to arrive at facts. Someone else can take your methodology and recreate it.
You can't do that with history. In fact you seem not to understand what history is. My birth's not history - it's been scientifically proven that people come into existence through birth. I'd guess a biological sciences textbook would be able to describe the process fully. My existence is not history. Grass in a park or on my lawn is not history. A bird is not history. Neither is a rock, a tree, a piece of asphalt, etc. The existence of an extant person, place or thing is not history. The date of my birth, or where I was born, if anyone cared, is history. I can offer evidence in the way of a birth certificate stating where and when I was born but from a historical perspective this doesn't make it a fact, just strongly supported, enough so that I can get a passport.
Not sure what the remark about creationists has to do with anything. If their argument is that evolution isn't a 100% proven fact, they're correct. If they want to argue that evolution isn't supported by an overwhelming amount of evidence, they're wrong. Rather than asking a creationist to blindly accept something you misrepresent as fact, show them the evidence. If they want to refuse to believe the evidence, that's their business.
I'm talking about examining the past while not getting locked into thinking of something as an absolute fact; keeping an open mind about things. If you like I can offer quite a few examples illustrating why this is important. I can start with Nazi Germany and what they decided to call historical "facts."
This is largely an academic exercise. If someone wants to talk about something which has overwhelming evidence in favor of it as fact, I don't get out of shape over it unless it's a historian writing that way in a book or journal article. But it's important for people who really want to learn about/study history to understand that absolute truths and facts don't exist. Things should always be questioned. New evidence may appear or someone may come up with a new way of interpreting it.
EDIT: BTW, when I say evolution is a theory I'm talking about at the all-encompassing "history of the world" level. If you're talking in the more limited sense of "changes between population generations," this has gone through modern scientific methods and should (I'm not a biologist or geneticist but my understanding is that enough research has been done on species with short generational spans) be able to be considered as fact.
You can't do that with history. In fact you seem not to understand what history is. My birth's not history - it's been scientifically proven that people come into existence through birth. I'd guess a biological sciences textbook would be able to describe the process fully. My existence is not history. Grass in a park or on my lawn is not history. A bird is not history. Neither is a rock, a tree, a piece of asphalt, etc. The existence of an extant person, place or thing is not history. The date of my birth, or where I was born, if anyone cared, is history. I can offer evidence in the way of a birth certificate stating where and when I was born but from a historical perspective this doesn't make it a fact, just strongly supported, enough so that I can get a passport.
Not sure what the remark about creationists has to do with anything. If their argument is that evolution isn't a 100% proven fact, they're correct. If they want to argue that evolution isn't supported by an overwhelming amount of evidence, they're wrong. Rather than asking a creationist to blindly accept something you misrepresent as fact, show them the evidence. If they want to refuse to believe the evidence, that's their business.
I'm talking about examining the past while not getting locked into thinking of something as an absolute fact; keeping an open mind about things. If you like I can offer quite a few examples illustrating why this is important. I can start with Nazi Germany and what they decided to call historical "facts."
This is largely an academic exercise. If someone wants to talk about something which has overwhelming evidence in favor of it as fact, I don't get out of shape over it unless it's a historian writing that way in a book or journal article. But it's important for people who really want to learn about/study history to understand that absolute truths and facts don't exist. Things should always be questioned. New evidence may appear or someone may come up with a new way of interpreting it.
EDIT: BTW, when I say evolution is a theory I'm talking about at the all-encompassing "history of the world" level. If you're talking in the more limited sense of "changes between population generations," this has gone through modern scientific methods and should (I'm not a biologist or geneticist but my understanding is that enough research has been done on species with short generational spans) be able to be considered as fact.
321ebookboy
Where do you people find podcasts, especially of ancient variety? I have looked everywhere for pocasts on rome, etc and can`t find them. Could I get some help please? Thank you in advance.
Regards,
Dennis
Regards,
Dennis
322plexica
Even in science, a "fact" is a mental construct built in part with evidence ( like matter and phenomena) and in part with reasoning, testimony and its evaluation, other experiences, and requiring the whole "fact" thus produced to fit coherently within the entire mental environment. Science adds in particular that it rely on reproducible experiment so conclusions can be "verified." When Einstein came up with a theory that didn't fit with Newton, it was only verified when several independent observations were made that could not be explained by Newton but could be explained by Einstein's theory.
In history Adam Smith and Marx are both talking about economics but how can we compare their set of "facts?"
Almost all the "facts" I know I get based on "authority" of a "source" so a new history book becomes a messenger in disguise whether comforting or dismaying until I can determine whether I can respect the credibility of both the messenger and the messenger's resources.
In ancient history, the "evidence" would seem to be the actual stuff dug up or the actual manuscript or - much less believable - the "tradition." Perhaps the whole of ancient history sources were prompted by the vanity of conquerors or by the vanity of someone like Tacitus who says he just wants to set the record straight, claiming to have no partiality or animus. Maybe we should be glad that today historians just want to get rich, writing "historical narrative" since it sells way better the closer it is to Sir Walter Scott than to Arnold Toynbee.
But in fact how can we really evaluate Toynbee?
In history Adam Smith and Marx are both talking about economics but how can we compare their set of "facts?"
Almost all the "facts" I know I get based on "authority" of a "source" so a new history book becomes a messenger in disguise whether comforting or dismaying until I can determine whether I can respect the credibility of both the messenger and the messenger's resources.
In ancient history, the "evidence" would seem to be the actual stuff dug up or the actual manuscript or - much less believable - the "tradition." Perhaps the whole of ancient history sources were prompted by the vanity of conquerors or by the vanity of someone like Tacitus who says he just wants to set the record straight, claiming to have no partiality or animus. Maybe we should be glad that today historians just want to get rich, writing "historical narrative" since it sells way better the closer it is to Sir Walter Scott than to Arnold Toynbee.
But in fact how can we really evaluate Toynbee?
323Nicole_VanK
In history Adam Smith and Marx are both talking about economics but how can we compare their set of "facts?"
I would argue that only the writings of these gentlemen are facts, not their views. Those are theories.
But in fact how can we really evaluate Toynbee?
We can try to work out if his views make sense. But yes, that's all.
I would argue that only the writings of these gentlemen are facts, not their views. Those are theories.
But in fact how can we really evaluate Toynbee?
We can try to work out if his views make sense. But yes, that's all.
324Polaris-
#321 - Although not exclusively covering ancient history (it also features history of science, ideas, Renaissance, philosophy, religion etc.) the BBC's 'In Our Time' is a very good 45 minute podcast. I think the archive is freely available to those outside the UK now as well. It is presented by Melvyn Bragg and usually has 3 expert guests each covering a slightly different aspect of the edition's particular episode.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/in-our-time/archive/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/in-our-time/archive/
327stellarexplorer
I like Carlin too. Try also Mike Duncan -- The History of Rome
328Feicht
I think I was listening to Duncan for a while, but stopped because while he admirably knew his stuff, it kind of felt like he was more or less just "reading off his report for the class" as opposed to telling a story, so it would (tragically) get a little boring to listen to. Carlin, on the other hand, is really animated and fun to listen to... kind of like a mix between your favorite history teacher... and William Shatner. Or something. hahaha
329Nicole_VanK
He wants to get beamed up?
330cemanuel
Lots of universities have links to video of lectures. Like everything else, you have to know what you're looking for or you get lost. I haven't explored them but here's a link to Open Culture's list of free history courses: http://www.openculture.com/history_free_courses
One is "Introduction to Ancient Greek History" by Donald Kagan. Of course being the Luddite that I am, I don't know the distinction between a podcast and any other form of video, such as streaming.
One is "Introduction to Ancient Greek History" by Donald Kagan. Of course being the Luddite that I am, I don't know the distinction between a podcast and any other form of video, such as streaming.
331Garp83
The Kagan Yale course is great!!! I have listened to it twice. Of course, you have to ignore his bullshit right-wing analogies of the Peloponnesian War with (pick one!) World War II, the Cold War, the War Against Terror but if you can skip his political inferences his history is brilliant and he is a likeable guy. He is old so his lectures sometimes wander a bit, but the guy is the foremost contemporary scholar on the Peloponnesian War and he is never boring. I highly recommend it!!!!
I've read several of his books so I am very familiar with his work, but this course is constructed for those with no background. And since it's Yale, his undergrad course is head and shoulders above most grad courses on the same material.
I've read several of his books so I am very familiar with his work, but this course is constructed for those with no background. And since it's Yale, his undergrad course is head and shoulders above most grad courses on the same material.
