Anyone interested in Anglo-Saxon warfare?

Several years ago I wrote my master thesis on Anglo-Saxon weapons and touched on tactics as well. Does anyone share my interest in this period?

Among others I used Early Anglo-Saxon Shields by Tania Dickinson and Heinrich Harke and The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England by Hilda Davidson for the thesis. Later on I bought Swords of the Viking Age. All give detailed descriptions of the tools of the trade.

The poems Beowulf, The Battle of Maldon and The Battle of Brunanburh are enlightening (and fun to read).

Great armour by the way. Are you into re-enactment?

I'm interested, because I write novels set in 6th century Britain.

What do you think of Anglo-Saxon Weapons and Warfare by Richard Underwood? I found it very useful from a re-enactors perspective.

Fascinating. Underwood's book belongs to the category popular history but it is a good introduction to the subject. I think of re-enactment as a kind of experimental archaeology. Very useful when you're writing about the period.

Do you read excavation reports such as published by the Council for British Archaeology?

As many as I can get my hands on. Underwood seemed in part to be summarizing information from Sonia Chadwick Hawkes's Weapons and Warfare in Anglo-Saxon England, now thoroughly out of print.

I am writing from a Welsh viewpoint, but due to differing burial customs there's much better information for the Anglo-Saxons.

Anything else you would recommend on tactics? I found the information on army sizes particularly interesting.

Yes, I got the impression that Underwood had read everything available on the subject and then summarised it. Still a good overview.

I'd like to have a copy of Hawkes's book as well. For the first centuries of the English early medieval period, archaeological finds are all we have. Until the eighth century grave goods give much information about the people. From the eighth century onwards Christianity had a strong influence on burial practices (no more gravegoods). Nothing new to you I suppose.

Tactics were primitive in the 6th century. Limited to the line formation, or shieldwall, and the wedge formation. So, not much is written about tactics. Hollister wrote a chapter on tactics and strategy in his Anglo-Saxon Military Institutions, but he focuses on the tenth and eleventh centuries.

The warbands in the 6th century counted several hundred men at most. Feuds were of course more common involving maybe ten to thirty men. The poetic Edda might be inspiring. It is generally assumed that Tacitus' descriptions of the tribes in Britain and Germania in his books Agricola and Germania are just as valid for the people living in Britain during the 5th, 6th and 7th centuries. It can't hurt to read Vegetius' The Roman Army either. The Iliad's poetic descriptions give a good feel of what close combat must feel like. I think it's timeless.

I found Heinrich Harke's publications especially useful as he also pays attention to the social makeup of Anglo-Saxon society based on (weapon) burials.

Thanks for the bibliography. "The Battle of Maldon A.D. 991" looks interesting but seems to be even harder to find than Hawkes (one copy on Bookfinder at the moment, not cheap).

I agree with you about the Iliad. I've listened to a spoken word version of Fagles translations several times on long road trips - I've found a phrase or two creeping into my own descriptions sometimes. I've read a couple of Harke's articles, most recently the one in Hawkes. Need to find time to read some of the Edda material.

From the Welsh side Y Gododdin is important - A O H Jarman's bilingual edition is particularly good. You might also find Lords of Battle by Stephen S. Evans interesting as the discusses Beowulf as well as Y Gododdin and the Taliesin poems. The Picts and Scots at War by Nick Aitchison and Welsh Military Institutions, 633-1283 by Sian Davies are also worthwhile; the first one in particular includes some discussion of Anglo-Saxon information.

The interesting thing about the burials is that there seems to be less of correlation between pagan = grave goods, Christianity = no grave goods in some Anglo-Saxon cemeteries than was originally thought. Can't remember where I read that though - I'll have to check.

I don't own a copy of "The Battle of Maldon A.D. 991" either. I read it in the university library.

The articles by Harke are all based on his Angelsachsische Waffengraber des 5. bis 7. Jahrhunderts published in 1992, but for some reason this book was never translated into English.

Harke's War and Violence in the Anglo-Saxon World was published in 2004, but is unavailable right now. I would really like to get my hands on this book.

The Anglo-Saxons were christianized during the 6th century, but ancient burial practices continued till they were finally abandoned in the 8th century according to Harke. Any other perspective on this would be very interesting.

The books you mention are very appealing and will broaden my horizon somewhat.

Am reading Maurice Keens "Medieval Warfare: A History" at the moment. He makes an interesting point in the fact that most of what we know of armies and fighters of this period does come from grave sites more so than literary sources. Quite the contrast from the 12th century on.

I haven't, and don't plan on, done any re-enacting of the period but my armor is made battle ready. By that I mean period style, custom fit, and in the right thickness and weight of the steel. Most of it have made in Europe but am contracting some makers stateside. Currently have a barbuta being made. Should be finished in Aug. or Sept.

You must model it and post a picture when you get it.

Can do, if it ever gets here. Ordered it in March I think.

deleted by author

Hi talkingdog,

first off, be aware that your post may get flagged, as a lot of people on LT take a dim view of authors mentioning their books. However, I think it's pertinent in this thread.

btw, I got a copy of your book for Christmas, having noticed it on amazon and put it on my wishlist. Haven't had a chance to read it yet, but flipping through it, it looks good so far. One thing that got my attention initially was your author bio on amazon. Nothing like hands-on research!

I apologize for the unintended offense. I've deleted the post and return you to your regularly scheduled darkness.

Regardless, I hope you find the book interesting.

13: talkingdog: I'm sorry you did that - I didn't find if offensive, and I think some other people on this thread might be interested, too. I just wanted to give you a friendly warning that this sort of thing can happen on LT. Personally I thought it was cool to see someone whose book I just got posting here.

I can't reinstate your post, but I can touchstone Viking Weapons and Combat Techniques by William R. Short.

@12 Not sure what you are trying to achieve. You scared away a potentially valuable member of our tiny club. Personally, I do not mind authors advertising their books. It is up to each individual whether he or she decides to buy it or not.

@13 Interesting approach: comparing literature with archaeology. I tried something similar when I was writing my thesis years ago. Did you research the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles as well?

Nice helmet, too.

15: It was meant as a friendly warning lest he post in another group and get an unpleasant surprise. Some groups do object, and as an author myself I'm always aware of that.

Not scared away, but as a guest, trying to be careful not to offend.

I did not use A-S Chronicles as a source.

My interest is medieval Icelandic literature. I had been researching and practicing material from medieval and Renaissance combat treatises for some time when I realized I could combine material from those various literary sources together with archaeological sources, and especially forensic sources, to come up with a speculative reconstruction of Viking fighting styles.

Allright dammnit! As founder of this group I would like to extend to talkingdog the invitation to re-post his original post, simply because I'm in the dark and never got to read it and am wondering what the hell I missed! Seriously, welcome to the group and feel free to advertise your wares if you feel it's relative.

P.s. I'm still waiting on that barbuta. Will be a year since ordering in March.

I fould talkingdog's book, Viking Weapons and Combat Techniques, very interesting. Don't have a copy myself yet, but I gave one as a (requested) holiday present, and, er, examined it thoroughly before wrapping it.

@18 You didn't miss a thing. I came across this thread and wrote a couple of lines saying people interested in this thread might also be interested in my book. That's it.

If you'd like to see some real evidence of Viking weapons and combat techniques have a look at 'Cemetaries of St Andrew, Fishergate'. It shows some horrific battle injuries on 19 of skeletons, which are thought to date to 1066AD and the battle of Gate Fulford - York. I was priveliged to look at these bones a few years ago to help identify the weapons that caused their wounds and put together a possible scenario for their sequence on one individual. This formed part of Jorvik Viking Centre's 'Skullsplitter' exhibition. Unfortunately the most interesting wounds aren't pictured in that book, but one day I hope to do a more thorough study and get something definative into print.

@21: Yes, please, get something more in print! I used Cemeteries of St Andrew, Fishergate as one of the sources when I was researching Viking Weapons and Combat Techniques. I also had an opportunity to examine some of the skeletal remains. I strongly encourage you to publish your research.

Along this vein, have any of you picked up the book on the Towton grave pits? "Blood and Roses" I think is the title.

I've not seen the book, but I have kept up to date with the finds and their interpretations, and the injuries were very similar to those from Fishergate. It's amazing to think how similar pitched battles were over the millennia, despite the changes in weapons and armour.

#23,
That would be Blood Red Roses: The Archaeology of a Mass Grave from the Battle of Towton AD 1461, yes? (David Brown / Oxbow carries it.)
.
I had it out via ILL last year, and found it quite interesting.

@23: I looked at it, but I chose to discard it when I was researching my book on Viking-era weapons and injuries. By 1461, weapons and techniques had changed in significant ways from the Viking age, and so I felt I could not rely on the data from that study.

@22: Do you remember when you got to see the bones at York? Only, while I was looking at them for the Skullsplitter exhibition I found some injuries had been misdiagnosed, especially on skeleton 6321 that was eventually used as the main exhibit.

The first (an injury to the femur) was actually the first bone I pulled out, it was recorded as a possible healed wound. This had an oval indentation in the bone with a knobbly surface, which was thought to be caused by bone re-growth. I’d usually expect the re-growth to be proud of the old bone surface though. Across it was a perimortem cut that had seen no healing at all. Either the two were a coincidence, wounds in identical places separated by a few years in time, or something else was going on. It took me a while to figure it out, but if you held the bone up to get the shadows right, you could see the unmistakeable marks where the victims own mail shirt had been crushed into the bone. Finally the force of the attacker’s weapon cut through the armour and went deeper into the bone.

This second was two rhomboidal piercing injuries to the pelvis which had been record as possible crossbow bolt wounds. I knew there was one doubtful source which recorded crossbows being used at the Battle of Hastings, so I was keen to follow this one up. Frankly I doubted it, and my intuition proved correct as I found a groove running between the two holes. The attacker had slammed his spear so hard into the victim it had gone through the pelvis, and then he'd pulled it out a little before driving it home again - nice!

Sort of like a modern day double tap. :)

@27: In 2002.

Can you say more about your work on the Skullsplitter exhibition? I had the understanding that a lot of that work was based on Gaille MacKinnon's thesis, and I am curious to learn more.

Thanks

I was at a lecture given by Richard Kemp, co-author of Cemeteries of St. Andrew, which he gave in York after the Viking festival one year. His theory was that the diverse location of wounds on the bodies indicated a confused fighting style with everyone mixed in together. There were a good number of re-enactors included in the audience (including myself) and we made it plain we doubted that hypothesis. Richard took it very well and was interested in our views, so all credit to him. I stood up and explained how I’d just finished reading a paper on another Anglo-Saxon burial which had included multiple battle victims. One of them had received 36 cuts deep enough to mark the bone, yet all of them could be explained by the nature of a shield wall battle.

The audience backed me up as I explained my theory of how the sequence of wounds could be explained within the shield wall dynamic, some even jumping to their feet to demonstrate at the crucial point! Anyway afterwards he asked if I’d look at some of the skeletons to identify the wounds and possible sequences, which I did a year later. It was then that I found the injuries mentioned above. The wound with the mail marks in it was a revelation and so 6321 was chosen as one of the prime exhibits.

I didn’t work on the exhibition itself, but I believe they did include my weapon diagnosis, my sequence of events and some of the artwork I put together to demonstrate it. Unfortunately I was unable to participate any further in it than that because I live way down south and had other commitments at the time. I never even got to see the exhibition, so I can't say how much of it was Gaille MacKinnon's work :(

Strangely though, a year or two later a woman at work came up and said ‘It’s you isn’t it?’ She’d been to the exhibition and had spotted my name, so they must have put a credit in there for me somewhere.

The wound with mail marks in it certainly made in impression on me, but I felt I couldn't discuss it in my book because I couldn't get an corroboration on it. Could you say more about it, please? I am intensely curious.

An orthopedic specialist with whom I consulted on the book felt that there were other ways that mark could have been created, other than by mail.

People who have done test cuts against mail using modern replicas simply didn't think the explanation was credible.

But most importantly, I could not get written documentation about any of this material! It was as if it were being restricted. For example, the only way my research librarian and I could find to get our hands on Gaille MacKinnon's thesis was to go to Bradford University and read it there, something that wasn't in the budget. No other copies were available to us.

So I would be grateful for anything you'd care to add. And again, I encourage you to write something about your research and conclusions.

I was initially confused by the mail indentations, as I said before it had previously been recorded as a possible old healed injury with the lumpiness being caused by bone re-growth. Luckily I'd made a few mailshirts in my time so when I looked at damage lit low from the side (and old archaeological trick for checking lumps and bumps) the pattern just jumped out at me. Once I'd spotted it, it appeared obvious, I could even see the mail link patterns alternating in vertical rows to the left and right. However, I’d be interested to hear any other theories on how the marks could have been made.

I took the findings to the Royal Armouries who dismissed me out of hand, telling me that it was categorically impossible for someone to have done that. I don't think they even looked at the evidence! The thing is, just because someone today isn’t able to hit with sufficient force to do the job, it doesn’t mean that they couldn’t do it in 1066. These people were well fed, trained from childhood and highly experienced. Would it be fair to guess that they might be a little better at a strike than a modern man?

I've not read any of Gaille MacKinnon's thesis - do you remember the salient points? I wonder if Jorvik have a copy? I've come up against a similar number of blocks in my research and often got the feeling that organisations are not interested in helping, even if you are actually helping them in the process. E-mails and letters go unanswered; telephone messages are left but rarely returned. Whether it is simply a lack of funds and resources mean they are solely focused on their own projects or it’s something deeper I don’t know.

I hope to get back to Jorvik and fully document the findings very soon, if I can get approval. Also, I’m in discussion with another party to do some serious scientific work on recreating these injuries and measuring the forces needed to inflict them. I was amazed at what was found in York and I'm determined to get the information out there - one way or another!

@32: Thanks for the additional information.

I think the concern from people doing test cuts is not that the person was incapable of the cut, but that the materials making up the mail and weapon were incapable of delivering the necessary force without themselves failing.

Alas, I have not read Gaille MacKinnon's thesis, either. It was not possible to borrow or buy a copy, and I was not in a position to go to Bradford University to read it.

So, here is how Anglo-Saxons dealt with unwelcome Viking visitors. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/dorset/8563377.stm

Nice spot varielle - thx for sharing.

P.s. ENTP and I was in London yesterday - British Muesem view part of the Staffordshire Hoard.

Who would've thought that many Vikings would've surrended while they still stood. A handful I can see surrendering, but 50+? Wonder what the circumstances surrounding that engagement consisted of.

I came up with 2 theories: either it could be the Vikings turning on themselves, perhaps a group of them did something wrong and they paid for it with their lives; or perhaps they were already wounded in battle and executed by the victorious English? I've tried to contact the people doing the dig, to see if they have found any evidence of other injuries, but I've had no reply as yet. The British Archeological 'establishment' is a big like a glacier; it moves very slowly, for the most part doesn't notice you exist and any contact you have with it is liable to grind you down. Ho hum!

Gwernin, I was so glad to see your mention of Jarman's bilingual Y Gododdin. That is what I was searching for - a bilingual copy. "Bilingual" meaning Welsh/English, I hope.

Since I "want it all", I wonder if you know of an annotated copy of this book. I dare not say "bilingual and annotated" but that would be nice.

Please?

Gwernin, if you are not allowed to mention titles of your books set in the sixth century but, maybe you could say what author name you use on them? I'd love to have some sixth century books. Thank you.

38: yes, Welsh/English with English commentary. it's not annotated per se but there is a substantial inroduction and appendices.

39: click on my profile name to find out more; I have an author link on my profile page.

Welcome back, gwernin.

41: Thanks.

OK, I have a question of sorts for the group, which I hope will not be taken as too self-promotional. I'm currently working on the 4th book in a projected nine-book series set in 6th century Britain. The 3rd book had a good bit of British-on-British warfare; some of the later books will have even more, including British vs. Saxons (e.g., Catraeth). I'm looking for people interested in the subject who would be willing to read a pdf and give me feedback on the accuracy or otherwise of my battle scenes. Any takers?

That particular era is not entirely my area of expertise, but I would be interested, as having been a participate in a few melees myself :).

thanks! anyone else...?

I'll take a look if you like, Catreath is on the very early borders of my period of interest.

45: thanks! leave me a private profile comment with an email address and I'll send it.

Poleaxe had some interesting comments, which I need to reply to soon. Maybe I should start another thread in this group to carry the topic further.

That may be an idea gwernin!
BTW just finished The Dream and the Tomb by Robert Payne. I still prefer chronicles to sweeping histories of the Crusades, but this was an entertaining read. Reminded me a lot of John J. Robinson.

Gwernin, I'll take a look at the battle scenes as well if you like. I haven't read anything on Celtic warfare, but quite a bit on Anglo-Saxon warfare.

While at the local Folklife Fair where it was 100 degrees I watched the Creative Anachronism group's sword fighting competition. The participants with all of their armor & padding were standing in the shade of a large tree as they awaited their turn in the ring (which was in the full sun). This is dedication to their hobby & art. The Civil War reenactors were also there & while chatting w/one of their members about their events he revealed a sort of 'trade secret' which is that when he is supposed to fall 'dead' in hot weather he staggers into the shade before succumbing to his wound. As a former Marching band member I know firsthand how hot a wool uniform can be on hot summer day! 8^)

Ha! Staggering into the shade! I should've thought of that when I was re-enacting WWII! I usually gave up the ghost when I ran out of ammo.