Imprecatory prayer

An evidently well known Baptist pastor, Wiley Drake from Buena Park, CA, has come out of the closet to pray publicly for the death of President Obama, whom the pastor considers an enemy.

Pastor Drake has evidently also made the news with other testimonies about his Christian faith, such as leading a Disney boycott, speaking out against a homosexual appointment to an ambassadorship, starting a law suit to challenge President Obama's presidency, expressing publicly his pleasure in the murder of an abortion provider, and engaging in imprecatory prayer against IRS employees in addition to such prayers against President Obama.

This brings several concerns and questions to my mind, among them:

How are we to take the imprecatory psalms and prayers in scripture?
Are they justification for Jews and Christians, and others, to pray for another's harm?
What should be the larger church response to Pastor Drake?
What should/can the Southern Baptist Convention do to address the actions and statements of Pastor Drake?
Does scripture give justification for the practice imprecatory prayer?

I found about Pastor Drake on this thread in the Happy Heathen group.

I think this topic relates to a topic on the reason for prayer initiated by Reality1843. After a few comments, I had stopped following that topic, but I link to it as a related theme.

Here is a link to Wikipedia on Pastor Drake.

Here is a link to a Fox interview of Pastor Drake.

Pastor Drake says he is not saying anything of his own. He is just saying and agreeing with what God is saying. Imprecatory prayer is part of what God wants believers to do. He is a "vengeance of God" supporter.

There is nothing Christ-like in this type of prayer, and the New Testament calls us to strive to be Christ-like.

Os.

Osbaldistone,

You have my full agreement. My question though is not for Christians alone, but also for Jews and also for others who might follow a precedent so justified.

As another possible counterpoint to the assertion and position in #2, Pastor Drake apparently thinks such actions are Christ-like. He certainly is certain of his place in heaven based on his acceptance of Jesus as lord and savior.

What is to establish the priority of one position statement over the other? or of one scripture verse over another? of one testament over another?

What do we say to Pastor Drake? Your prayer is not Christ-like?

What do we say to non believers? Drake's actions do not represent the beliefs of other Christians?

What are we to make of imprecatory prayer? Why is it not a proper form or prayer? Or when is it a proper form of prayer? When and why might it be efficacious, or not?

One might point out to the "Pastor" his straightforward contradiction of the Scriptures, which state that God desireth not the death of a sinner.

>3 richardbsmith:
First - my responses are in no way intended to reflect any opinion about any political leader. The issue is not one of "do you like or hate Obama or Bush", but of how a Christian responds to one who you believe is going the wrong way, or leading the wrong way.

My question though is not for Christians alone, but also for Jews and also for others who might follow a precedent so justified.
I don't know enough about modern Judaism to know what to say to a Jew. That is, I don't know if modern Judaism sees the Old Testament vengeful God as a reflection of a people who had yet to grow out of their own violent roots. I can only look at what Christ, Paul, and other NT writers say, and point to a new way of responding to those who persecute you; to those who lead us down the wrong path; to those who do not know God.

As another possible counterpoint to the assertion and position in #2, Pastor Drake apparently thinks such actions are Christ-like. He certainly is certain of his place in heaven based on his acceptance of Jesus as lord and savior.
What is to establish the priority of one position statement over the other? or of one scripture verse over another? of one testament over another?
I like the Benedictine approach - Scripture is read in its entirety over a period of about a year, then it's read again, and again, etc. Over your lifetime, scripture becomes part of you; all of it, not just select verses. What grows in you is an understanding of a whole. Absorbing the NT this way leads to an understanding of what Christ calls us to that is greater than any commentary, analysis, interpretation can bring. I can't say I'm there (I've never been able to establish the discipline), but the more I read the NT, the less I see any way to tolerate actions often considered acceptable by some (even many) Christians.

What do we say to Pastor Drake? Your prayer is not Christ-like?
Yes (see above).

What do we say to non believers? Drake's actions do not represent the beliefs of other Christians?
Sort of. Christians are humans and are able to rationalize their beliefs just like any other humans. Pointing to the words/actions of selected Christians to show Christianity is wrong is the same as pointing to selected Bible verses (and interpretations) to show your belief is right. I used to have a co-worker who loved to pop into my office to tell me about the latest news of an embarrassing moment for a Christian. But she was unable to see that she is surrounded by Christians who do good everyday in ways that go unnoticed, often having an effect that goes unnoticed as well. Drake certainly does harm to Christianity by the image he creates, but for every Drake, there are hundreds of Christians quietly living in a Christ-like way, having an impact on one person at a time.

What are we to make of imprecatory prayer? Why is it not a proper form or prayer? Or when is it a proper form of prayer? When and why might it be efficacious, or not?
My problem is that the person offering this prayer has set him/herself up as the judge, deciding who deserves God's wrath. God has clearly instructed us to leave that role to Him, and I'm happy to do that, because it frees me of the responsibility. We can pray for evil to be destroyed, we can pray for sinners to see their errors (in which case, we are praying for ourselves as well as others). But there is no justification for us to presume to name for God who is doing evil and what God's punishment should be. I still pray for those who have been killed in Iraq, and for those who killed them. I pray for God to guide our leaders - He may guide them out of office; He may guide them into harms way; He may guide them to enlightened decision making. I leave the judgement to God, and I believe that Drake would do the same if he truly comprehended what Christ demands of us.

Os.

Thanks for the thoughtful response to my questions. And I agree with each of your comments.

Here also is a recent blog post that references the words of Pastor Drake.

The post brings up questions of inspiration and interpretation that lie at the root of this issue. The writer uses phrases as "spirit of arrogance" and "false fundamentalism". He suggests that the consideration of imprecatory prayers and all "biblical interpretation must be done mindful of the genre of the text and the historical context."

The writer is from a different tradition than I am, but his approach is one that seems appropriate to me.

>7 richardbsmith:
You know, Christ's disciples expected him to take on the Romans and drive them out. This understanding of the Messiah was based on their understanding of scripture within their own historical and social context. They walked with Christ for years and still had trouble grasping the fundamental change He was instituting. We should not expect that we (with Christ's presence being much easier to miss, ignore, or forget) would routinely do much better.

I think we should all approach reading, interpreting, and understanding scripture with humility and the expectation of getting at least some of it wrong, for now. My personal experience is that it seems to be two steps forward and one step back on my personal journey. And I've developed a natural suspicion of those whose understanding is an unquestioned certainty - I just don't think we are capable of getting it right to that degree.

Os.

I lead a Sunday School class and this summer we are discussing Isaiah 1-12. (Although as my wife gleefully and viciously mocks me, we have just finished our 3rd week on chapter 1. So far we are working through verses 21-27, so it may be difficult to finish the remaining 12 chapters of our planned 12 chapter summer study. Wives can be so mean.:) )

I brought up this question of imprecatory prayer to the class. No one had heard of Pastor Drake. And most were unaware of the idea of imprecatory prayer. It is not taught at all in the Episcopal Church as a prayer form: adoration, praise, thanksgiving, penitence, oblation, intercession, and petition.

The question of a response to Pastor Drake and of an understanding of imprecatory prayer and of the vengeance of God has application to our study in Isaiah. And I think the class will approach appropriate verses with a view to the question.

I gave them a couple sites to introduce the pastor and his position.

Some examples of imprecatory prayer in scripture:

Ps 58.6 O God, break the teeth in their mouths; tear out the fangs of the young lions, O LORD.

Ps 69.28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous.

Ps 109.9 May his days be few; may another seize his goods! (10) May his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow!

It is interesting to see how the NT treats these passages. In one example, Paul quotes Psalm 69 in Romans 11.8. His conclusion: "(11) So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means!...(12) if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!" (Speaking of the Jews.)

Romans 12.14ff "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them..."

Though I still am not ready to consider that the NT teaches differently on this question than the OT. The OT covers much more time, many more writers, much more development than is covered by the literature of the NT.

Is there a tie between a theology of the vengeance of God and the practice of imprecatory prayer?

Isaiah 1.21 "I will vent my wrath on my enemies, and avenge myself on my foes." (reference is to the leaders of Judah)

1.28 "But rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed" (again in reference to Judah.)

Isaiah 13.11 "I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless. (12) I will make men more rare than fine gold..." (reference to the world outside of Judah)

Do such passages provide justification for imprecatory prayer?

>11 richardbsmith:
Christ taught us how to pray, and there is no hint of imprecatory prayer in what he taught.

It is one thing for God to promise justice and punishment (as in Isaiah; and I'm sure Drake looks to such verses for justification for his views). It's quite another for one of His children to presume to know who is, and who is not, deserving of His wrath.

I know there have been times in my life when I could have been called an enemy or foe of God, a "rebel and sinner", one "who forsake(s) the Lord", is prideful and arrogant. Thank God it was not up to my fellow Christians to pray God's vengence down on me. God led me back because (I believe), in His wisdom, He knew that I could be saved. Apparently, Drake has the necessary insight to tell who is beyond God's salvation and, thus, is deserving of destruction by God. And, apparently, he believes God needs Drake's help in identifying them.

Os.

I wonder of Drake is operating on the Inquisitional theory of destroying the mortal life in order to save the soul?

As for me, since this is the Christianity thread, I will be bold and say categorically that good people do not use imprecatory prayer. "Imprecatory prayer" is just a fancy word for cursing someone, and since IMO invoking a curse is an evil act, good people avoid it.

We see people in the Bible using imprecatory prayer - though all examples I have seen listed so far are from the Psalms. But in the OT, you have plenty of characters of doubtful character. Jacob tricked his brother (and his father) out of the inheritance of the first-born. Rachel stole her fathers household gods. There's that fellow at the end of Judges who allowed his concubine to be raped to death, and then cut her up and sent her body parts to the chiefs of the other Hebrew tribes. And even God's favorite David - to whom many of the Psalms are ascribed - had his faithful soldier Uriah the Hittite killed in battle in order to cover up the fact that he had impregnated Uriah's wife.

Just because God chose to benefit and act through people who are not nice, doesn't mean that cursing someone isn't wrong.

"Imprecatory prayer" is just a fancy word for cursing someone, and since IMO invoking a curse is an evil act, good people avoid it.

That point was made also on the Happy Heathen thread.

I am looking at some specifics trying to see if Pastor Drake has any justification, from even the most literally minded approach to scripture, for such a prayer. So far I cannot find any justification, and as Os says certainly not from the NT writings.

Imprecatory prayer is cursing someone. In fact in Luke 9.51-56 Jesus stops such prayer.

51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?" 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them, 56 and they went to another village.

When so many Muslims were advocating Jihad and justifying suicide bombings, my question was always if that is not typical Islamic teaching where are the voices in opposition?

Since, there have been voices within my hearing from the Muslim community raised in opposition to Jihad.

Now my question, where is the Church opposition to this teaching on imprecatory prayer? We do not need to be nice on this.

BTW, this topic is on page 2 of google for imprecatory prayer, so maybe at least this can be a voice against Pastor Drake's actions.

An excellent meditation on the imprecatory Psalms appears in Getting Involved with God: Rediscovering the Old Testament. Ellen F. Davis is an Episcopal OT scholar, and I wouldn't exactly call her a fundamentalist or a right-wing radical. She understands the imprecatory Psalms as a way of getting real with God, admitting our anger and our indignation and turning our enemies over to God, something along the lines of what we might call "praying for our enemies." Some people might try to strike a pose before the Almighty as though they would never have such anger and such terrible thoughts about other people (myself included), but the Psalmists knew better and they did not hesitate to open themselves, warts and all, completely to God. This openness, Davis avers, is the necessary step to moving beyond our anger and indignation to recognizing God's sovereignty over our friends and our enemies alike and trusting in God to establish justice. Christians living in the modern liberal West may wrinkle their prissy, politically-correct noses at imprecatory Psalms, but the Hebrew Psalter has been a wellspring of Christian prayer for saints and martyrs, Catholic and Protestant and Eastern Orthodox across the ages. King David and the verse attributed to him may not be politic, but at least he's being honest with God.

josephx23

That type of carthartic understanding of the imprecatory psalms points to a good and probably healthy approach to these psalms. But it seems different from imprecatory prayer of Pastor Drake, which I think is correctly described as a curse, used to call for death of a specific individual.

I wonder though how many in the West have experienced similar circumstances to those that brought forth such expressions as is in Psalm 137.

Or Psalm 59. I am fairly sure that it would not be appropriate for me to pray to be saved from those who "lie in wait for my life." It would be more evidence of paranoia than an act of catharsis.

It may be that I am fooling myself, but anger and hate as described in some of the psalms is outside of my experience, though probably not outside many who live in fear of their lives.

I just do not think I have such enemies personally. And I am sure that President Obama is not among those enemies of whom I might be unaware.

I would add that it's a different thing vent your anger, fear, frustration, and even hate to God's "sympathetic ear" instead of going out and beating someone to death or vandalizing their home. If that is the use to which a person puts these Psalms, then that can on occasion be a healthy thing. I certainly recommend people not feel guilty when they are angry at God because they or a loved one has received a terminal diagnosis, etc. I tell them, "It's okay to be mad at God. He has big shoulders. He can take it."

But actually praying, in an intentional, systematic, and cold-blooded way, that God kill someone else or turn their life into a torment is a curse. To me, it's the Christian equivalent to dabbling in black magic. It's wrong, and if that isn't reason enough, it's dangerous, too - especially if you actually believe that prayer has power. Drake may be thinking he is doing the right thing, but IMO he's playing a very dangerous game.