Self publish or go the 'traditional route?'

Do any writers out there have advice / ideas / suggestions about self-publishing /POD vs. being published through tradtional means? I could REALLY use some help! I went the 'traditional route' for my 1st books (St. Martin's Press) years ago, but when I had my latest ms. ready, I decided to self-publish because it would be faster and I would have more control. But now I'm finding that I'm having trouble getting the new book reviewd, getting it into stores, etc.

Can anyone give me the 'pros and cons' of your publishing decision? Why you chose the route you did, how it's worked out for you, would you do the same thing again, etc.?

Thanks!

Self-publishing can work well for a certain kind of book.

Non-fiction, specialized subject or regional audience, where the author has contacts in the field and a good grip on distribution channels.

For example, a friend of mine self-published a little book called Fly Fishing the Grand River. It was based, in part, on his professional research as an aquatic ecologist; furthermore, he'd been involved in distributing tackle in the province, so he had his distribution nailed down in addition to his specialized knowledge. And on top of that, he's a good writer who can put together an engaging manuscript on what could otherwise be a dry subject, without needing all kinds of editorial services. This thing has sold thousands of copies -- if it had gone the traditional route, it would have been on the bestseller list in Canada.

But ... for fiction, general non-fiction, etc., I think self-publishing is suicide. So for my novel, I've taken the traditional route.

1> Of course it is not an easy route to publish yourself, which I place in a different category than POD, where the POD provider prints and ships for the author, like Lulu.com. I tried their service, and for European authors, the printing options were below zero in quality. We were forced to deal with a Spanish printer and consistency and quality were not part of his vocabulary. I gave up after four proofs.

POD is also not the best way to market a book, for the folks who provide this service do not advertise in such a way as to give your book continuous exposure, which it requires. Their focus should be driving traffic to their site, but that is not the case, since most of them advertise to attract new authors. It is also very, very, very difficult - if not impossible - to get a POD book into a bookstore.

I researched printers and distribution and determined that although the stores might sell a thousand copies for me - the emphasis being on 'might' - I was still going to bankroll them with copies that they could return to me months later, and I would then pay return shipping, as well. And, they could send the books back in any condition. This is how the system works, and their required discounts would have made me less than 10% on the 'loan' that financed the placement of books on their shelves. Big publishers can take this hit, but individual authors cannot. There is no guarantee that my book would have received adequate and continuous shelf placement, during the time that the stores had them in their inventory, either.

I wrote my book while living in Germany, so it is published with a German ISBN, which I purchased directly. I printed it in the UK, and I ship exclusively from my website. Shipping a book from Germany is very inexpensive, in comparison to other parts of the world, so this has worked out well, from that standpoint. By printing myself, I have been able to keep the cost lower, as well, which translates into saving for my readers.

So, I print in the UK and take delivery in Europe, and then do the order fulfillment myself. This allows me to keep a clear eye on quality control, which is essential to maintaining a good relationship with readers. I have over twenty-five years in marketing and advertising, so that aspect is under control. The key that is difficult is getting enough exposure to sell those thousands of copies. I have three websites and exposure on several blogs, as well as my own. So far, sales have trickled in, which is a good sign. I am also a co-creator of a gay comic, which has a large following already, and I cross-market my book with that audience, since the name recognition is already established.

As you can see, it is a lot of work, and I am still seeking additional methods of gaining exposure for my writing. I will, however, caution you on offering your book to libraries for free, which I did. I was surprised to learn that they do not like a direct offering from an author, and many just ignored the message, even though I was paying the shipping as well as donating the book. I had heard that libraries were always looking for new books, and I foolishly believed this, only to learn that this is not so - in the USA. Only one (1) library in the USA I targeted with my email message was happy to take me up on my offer. (I did my research and sent the message with links to my site, and a small image of the book cover, as well as making sure I had the name of the decision maker for the particular library to whom I addressed the email.)

So, I guess if you have a strong marketing background, a means of directly targeting whatever niche your writing falls into and a website, you can at least find some success with your work.

If you're curious about the website structure I used, etc., I invite you to have a look:

http://www.kristophe.com
http://www.myspace.com/kjsbooks

Feel free to send a note, if you have questions.

PS: Would I prefer to have a publisher doing it all for me? Yep.

I think that AJ and K.J made good points. Five years ago I found an agent to handle my first novel and she got the book to publishers. One small but prestigious publisher was interested based on the outline and first fifty pages, but when the remainder of the book was submitted they turned it down for being too depressing. The agent then dropped me. I revised the book, considered trying the legitimate route again, but instead went with a POD publisher, Xlibris. The quality of the book was fine, but working with the publisher in any other aspect was a horror. The book did have a regional hook: it was set in New Jersey. It got good to great reviews in many NJ publications, and even beyond the Garden State. Based on the reviews and the book itself, I got the regional director of Borders to agree to stock the book in most of their NJ stores and a few outside of the area. I also got a number of B&N stores interested in carrying it. The catch was that the publisher had to make the book returnable. Xlibris would not budge on this. The idea of having the book in brick and mortar stores was too enticing to resist. I republished the novel with PageFree Publishing, which would make the book returnable for a fee of $500. So I got my book in stores. Great. Sort of. Pagefree didn't envision that so many stores would agree to carry the book, and of course a publisher can't refuse to print books for B&N. So when the stores started returning the books (the returnability agreement was for one year), Pagefree had to eat costs. I didn't cost me anything beyond the $500, but I didn't make anything on the books that were sold in stores (to get my money out of Pagefree would have taken a lawsuit). By the way, I did sell the book to many N.J. libraries. Ok, I wrote my second novel, The Red Album of Asbury Park, and I decided to go directly to a POD Publisher again. I didn't bother sending the book to agents or publishers (the last thing they want is dark working class realism). I published the novel a year ago, and republished it in September 2009 (Now called The Red Album of Asbury Park Remixed). Although it was getting excellent reviews, I was troubled by some aspects of the book. I'm happy now. Getting the book reviewed is difficult, but I have gotten it covered in Jersey's two top papers (bleak but compelling, but this was before the revise), and in numerous print and online pubs. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of sites that review fiction, but POD or self-published (I really don't think it makes much difference) books are not welcome. I find myself spending an enormous amount of time just trying to promote the book online (just one more review!), and it interferes with a new novel I'm trying to write. But occasionally things happen that I beleive that justify my efforts. Check out this site: http://readersdiscotheque.blogspot.com/2009/10/red-album-of-asbury-park.html

How good would a pod novel have to be to break through? If if were good it wouldn't be self-published. How can one break through that? One can't. I'm trying.

Alex

Of course, there's no money in this.

I decided to go down the self-publishing route. I'd read that Stephen Clarke had done the same with his 'Year in the Merde' and sold so many copies the publishers took notice.
'Teenager en Provence' is also a relocation story, but from the point of view of the teenager who didn't want to move rather than the adult that dreamt of la vie en France, so it's quirky and unusual.
I researched various agencies and spoke with a couple of them, before deciding to part with nearly £1000 to have the book professional edited and turned into a pod.
My biggest problem has been that I live on an island between France and the UK and would really need to be able to reach out to bigger chains of bookshops. My local Waterstones took it straight away and have been helpful, but I feel that is because I went there and sold it to them. Sending a review copy in the post gets you nowhere, so if you are to self publish make sure you have a large enough area of bookstores and be prepared to travel to knock on doors.
I then added myself on authorsden.com which has generated many US sales as you can offer sample chapters for reading. I have a website that receives around 100 hits a month, not a lot but they do say slowly slowly, it started out less than a year ago with about 2! If your book has a theme, use that theme area, my book is listed in the publications of French magazines for the British francophile.
I think if you go down the self publishing route you must be totally convinced of your book and your ability to sell it. It is hard work and I wouldn't do it again purely as it is so time consuming it doesn't give me much chance to write anything else.
Re libraries, they must all be different because my local library bought 4 copies.
Conclusion - check out the stores/libraries/local media/etc to see if they would be interested before parting with your money.
Hope that helps. KR Annie

4> It sounds like a harrowing experience, and I found Lulu.com to be less than forthcoming, and when asked in their forums to explain the shoddy work Euro authors were getting, they either locked the forums, or ignored them. POD can be a nightmare.

I do disagree with your statement: "If it were good it wouldn't be self-published." There is a great deal of self-published literature that is as good if not better than much of the mainstream books you find at Borders, etc. Getting published does not guarantee that the reader will find great literature, it only guarantees that the publisher thinks it is a great moneymaker. It is a matter of getting to the right people, and as an English-speaking author living in Germany, it is not as easy to get in front of the people whom I need to meet. So, I do the best I can with what I've got, and part of that is a great book.

Hi, K.J.

I disagree with the statement, too. I meant that it's the prevailing opinion of many reviewers. Most will not even consider self-published books. It's an attitude we must somehow change.

Is there a website that tracks self-published books that succeed? By succeed I mean sell more than a couple of hundred copies. Or get picked up by a big publisher. The recent ones that I'm aware of are The Shack, Still Alice, and Daemon. Three very different books with very different audiences.

I know The Christmas Box began as a self-published work, and I think maybe Eragon did too but I'm not positive about that one.

It would be great to have a source showing which ones 'made it!'

7> We are in full agreement. Perhaps the 'new market equalizer' (the internet) will help us with this challenge.

> > 8

The late E. Lynn Harris is probably one of the most famous self-publishers who succeeded. He couldn't find a publisher for his first book, Invisible Life, (I suppose the depiction of black male homosexuality scared them), and shopped it around by himself, selling it to African-American bookstores. He found himself with a hit on his hands, was picked up by Anchor Books, and went on to hit the New York Times Bestseller list ten times.

There are a few shining examples of self-pub success - Chicken Soup for the Soul comes to mind - but they are the exception, not the rule. I went the traditional route with my novel and couldn't be happier. There are a lot of great people working to get it noticed. I could never have done it all on my own.

THE WIVES OF HENRY OADES will debut in the UK on Feb. 4th and in the US on Feb. 23rd. I've already had lovely reviews from both Publishers Weekly and Kirkus. Random House is giving away 30 copies on Goodreads, by the way. The contest ends Nov. 8th.

Keep writing....Don't give up ~ Johanna Moran

Originally self-published books

I hope this encourages everyone. I love self-publishing because to me it is a challenge and I keep control.

Be the social butterfly. You have to sell yourself first. I think that is the key. You are really the product here. People want to know the author. The book can really stink but if the author is someone they want to get to know, they'll buy the book. Use the internet. There are so many places to network. Good luck.

#13 I notice most of the books on that list are either self-help or by people who were already famous. Very few fiction books.

Why do you think that's the case?

Sometimes, in the wake of continual rejection by agents and publishers, you don't have a choice ... or rather, the choice is: publish yourself or file that book away in a cabinet with the others.

Re #10, "Perhaps the 'new market equalizer' (the internet) will help us with this challenge."

I've just started dipping my toe into the Kindle. Amazon (dtp.amazon.com) will let you throw up just about anything at the price of wrestling with plain or html text. I've gotten around those difficulties by putting up my work in progress in parts (Stronger than Sin or Silence), which also helps because it makes a price tag small enough to maybe attract someone not hurt me so much. OTOH, I went ahead with this after a friend, who had told me months ago about another friend, Karen McQuestion, added that she was making up in volume what her 2 novels and 2 collections lack in Kindle pricetags. And I believe she's had other good developments, but I don't know how public they are.

I've also been doing some small-scale self-publishing in Hewlett-Packard's Magcloud project (mine are at http://magcloud.com/bkswrites, including How to Be a Big Brother by Barbara Kellam-Scott). It's print on demand, and you have to send them a pdf, but it's kind of a cool way to do a picture book you've been trying for ages to get published.

Of course, with both of these routes, you have to do some promoting. But that's not the only reason I'm here (grin). (sorry I had to put my name on that last touchstone; it was giving me a different book)

Some numbers from going the traditional route. "in 2004, 950,000 titles out of the 1.2 million tracked by Nielsen Bookscan sold fewer than 99 copies. Another 200,000 sold fewer than 1,000 copies."

The barriers are overwhelmingly high in getting any kind of book noticed these days including the ones with traditional contracts.

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/12/11/so-you-want-to-be-an-a...

You can choose to face the 8-foot brick wall with iron spikes on top, or the mined catwire fence covered by machine guns firing on fixed lines.

All barriers are not created equal.

In the discussion of self-publishing, it's time to stop pretending that a book is a book is a book. The challenges involved in selling a short story collection are quite different from those involved in selling a hiking guidebook to the Appalachian Trail.

Notice how few successful self-published books are fiction.

In terms of book sales, what is the definition of a successful work of fiction? Is the definition the same for self-published and other-published fiction?

In terms of reviews, how many positive reviews constitute "artistic" success for a work of fiction? Is the definition the same for self-published and other-published fiction?

Of course, the established media will not even consider reviewing self-published fiction. What is ironic is that most self-published reviewers will not consider self-published fiction. Example: Bookslut).

As a writer, you shouldn't care how many copies you have to sell to be called successful.

You should care about which route is likely to return a greater number of dollars to your bank account.

On this, I side with Alfalfa. His bank account should be of no concern to the artist, who needs merely adoration. By the way, I'm looking for a good Guidebook to the Appalachian Trail. Can you suggest one?

Nope. Never read a single one.

Adoration vs. cold cash ... writing is about artistry, publishing is about money. But if you want adoration for writing fiction, you better stay away from self-publishing, I think. It still carries that taint of the vanity press.

For prostitutes, prostitution is about money. For the John, prostitution is about sex. For publishers, publishing is about money, for writers, publishing is about adoration, broadly defined. Self-publishing may well be fucking oneself.

I agree ... I think. But instead of money vs. adoration, I'd say money vs. appreciation. I've been adored a few times, and it can be a burden.

I once had a friend who charitably instructed me, “Sleeping with a beautiful woman can get boring fast.” Your book “I Think Therefore Who Am I?” covers ground that interests me. I’ll pick up a copy. No matter how good the book is, I promise I won't adore you.

"For prostitutes, prostitution is about money. For the John, prostitution is about sex."

For prostitutes, prostitution is about both: sex and money.

For Johns, prostitution is about both: money and sex.

#25 --

No one can adore me as well as I can adore myself. And that is effortless, and deserved, so not a burden.

And as it costs me nothing, I'm not engaged in prostitution.

"I once had a friend who charitably instructed me, 'Sleeping with a beautiful woman can get boring fast'.”

There's the error: it isn't about the sleeping with her. It's about what one does with her when not sleeping.

Oh, no, every moment he spent with her not sleeping was fine. The sex, everything. He meant just the sleeping part. As to 27, I was a sailor once. I fully support you on 28.

Interesting, that you were a sailor once. I just finished reading The Lost Sailors by Jean-Claude Izzo, best known for his Marseille trilogy. There's a lot about prostitutes in it, and true love. You might enjoy it.

Allow me to share a few secrets of my success in self-publishing, both fiction and non-fiction. Some of these come from my experience and some from associates who have also tried self-publishing.

First, there is a long and hallowed tradition in American letters for self-publishing. However, there is also a long and sullied tradition for SP to carry a stigma, as expressed by some here, that "if it was good it wouldn't be self-published." Mark Twain would disagree, as would a hundred other well known authors who have taken that route.

Here's what i know works: Set up a company, however organized, with another's name not your own--say a sister who is married, or a cousin or someone who will allow use of your name; or a wife with her maiden name, etc. It's fairly cheap to do a LLC and it can all be setup online. Then buy a PO box, a group of ISBN numbers (10) from Bowker's. A couple of unpaid "advisors" helps too, esp. if one can copy-edit your stuff.

NEVER disclose that your book is self-published--not to other writers, not to anyone. Next you will need to interview printers and/or binders. YOu may also need to do the same with graphic artists as you'll need a dynamite cover for fiction; perhaps no dust jacket for non-fiction. Get quotes for printing/binding 50, 100, 200 copies--no more than you think you can sell in a year. Build a mailing list--start with friends, associates, etc.

Calculate the publication costs per volume and then calculate the number you'll have to sell to break even. In one case, for a run of 100 I needed only 34 sales to break even, then the remaining 66 were profit, less misc. expenses.

Marketing works best for non-fiction niche books; it's toughest for fiction, of course. I advise setting a cover price at twice the publication price, at the very least--more if the market can bear it.

The rest, from bar codes to registering the co. and making an email addy for it, etc. is all detail stuff easily done and with little cost. Reviews may be critical, but for the most part the lack of them still won't keep you from breaking even or making money. Remember, you're getting ALL the profits here, not 10% or 15% of the cover price. Make it a business. Do it businesslike. You don't have to be a supersalesman, though it helps.

In my case I had a business for a few years and put a volume of mine on the counter at a discounted price for customers. I sold by email, by website, etc. There are FREE websites where you can sell using a credit card through paypal without the expense of a merchant account.

Well, there's more but these are the main ideas. Self-publishing CAN lead to a traditional publisher ponying up to take your book--if you can show some real sales.

David

Has anyone else here tried the new Internet routes (seen notes 10 and 17 above)?

Thanks for that, David. But for someone with less business smarts than you obviously have, the details you mention add up and, cumulatively, seem quite daunting. I'll bet I'm not the only one on this thread who thought: I wonder if he can do that for me? That is, envision you as a more humane publisher who might take their book and run with it. Like me. I'm available to be your client.

32> Your points are dead on. Over time I have discovered the only link I am missing is having a separate company from which I sell my book(s). Unfortunately, my studio is in Europe and Germany requires untold volumes of paperwork and 'proof' that the company is a 'real' publisher (by their standards) before one can be an official entity. It is not an inexpensive undertaking in Germany. (Lawyers also have to be involved and the way they create their fees, here, reminds one of the highwaymen of ancient lore.)

If I were back in the States, I would have set up a corp or LLC in a heartbeat. It places an entity between the author and the finished work, which presents the book as coming from a publisher, and not an author. Since perception is much of the marketing game, it is a valid suggestion.

However, having structured businesses in the USA in the past, I would suggest paying a small fee for legal and CPA assessment of such a plan. There is no sense in paying double taxes on your earnings, and/or having to wrest control of your writing from a third party - even if it is family. Get solid, professional advice, to better implement David's suggestions.

34> It can be daunting, but with a little help from technical friends, it is not impossible. I am not technically-oriented, yet I have several websites, the one for my writing having been built by myself in its entirety. It does not glow in the dark, but it is effective for what I wish it to do for my writing:

http://www.kristophe.com

Unlike many, I am fortunate in that I can create my own cover art, and/or commission my own designs. This is very important and David's suggestion that you develop relationships with printers and artists is an essential ingredient.

In this day and age, it is very likely that there is someone you know who is proficient at website construction and can either help you, or do it for you. Ask around, especially at the local school's computer class. With the teacher's permission, you might be able to post a note seeking help with this. There are a ton of burgeoning creative people in school, and they will likely know the latest processes.

There is also bound to be someone within your sphere of influence who can help you with reviewing the legal and IRS details you will need to delve into to protect your writing and your pocketbook. If not, go to your local law shop and ask what the fee would be for a simple overview consultation of an idea. Many will charge only a small fee from 50 USD up.

If you would, David, it's a concern of mine that whatever book I put forth can be sold on Internet outlets like amazon, barnes&noble, etc. Are there speciall difficulties with that, or is it just a matter of knowing what to do, and perhaps paying fees, or whatever.

37> the worst "special difficulty" is the fact that Amazon wants 55% of the cover price on any sales of your book. Not too practical, unless you inflate your cover price and/or deflate your production costs and expenses. There are other ways to sell books online. You can go eBay or make a free website on webs.com that incorporates Paypal and credit cards in a store function. Look at it this way--the big boys, like Amazon and B&N want to go through the big distributors--everybody wants a piece of the price, which makes little sense unless you're publishing thousands and thousands of books. But you can make it profitable with only a hundred at a time, once you know how. The main thing is to treat it like a business and NOT to get stuck with a garage full of books.

As the poster in #35 points out, you need a business entity to stand between you the author and the purchasers, whether those are bookstores or individuals. One of my friends did his LLC using his wife's maiden name, and he handles all the details. Create a new email for the company, a PO box, set up shipping details, figure out how to market the books, try all sorts of marketing on a shoestring--this works best with a niche non-fiction work, but it can be done with fiction, it's just a lot harder. There are a couple of good "bibles" on self-publishing, but none of them suggest this "front publishing co." approach. As for taxes, you just file the proper profit/loss schedule and keep all records. With an LLC you don't need a special return like you would with a corp.

Marketing and publishing details make for nice breaks from all the writing, too. I don't sell to wholesalers, jobbers or distributors, because they all want 40-50% off the cover price. What does this mean for me? It means I'd have to sell 6 or 7 books at that discount for every 1 book I sell direct.

38> An LLC is a good idea, but one must keep in mind that there are tax ramifications for having this 'entity' between the author and the customer: double taxation. With the IRS, your LLC will be taxed on earnings and if you pay the author (yourself) you will then be liable for personal income tax - because you are receiving royalties from the publisher - your LLC, which = double taxation on your earnings. Seek the advice of a good tax analyst, as I did, before setting up any entity such as this in the USA.

I do agree with the sales analysis, regarding jobbers and wholesalers: I know that when one of my books leaves the studio, it is actually, truly, really sold, and not coming back to me, shipped both ways at my expense, in any condition, a year later. It is a true sale, and the profit is not diluted down to fifty cents. When analyzing my prospects with Amazon, I quickly realized that I would be financing them and basically producing for them, as I would be the last one in line for profit, if there was any left, and my book would have to be priced too high. It's actually much better for me financially if I sell two hundred books from my studio, rather than one thousand books through Amazon, B&N and the rest. Check them all out, thoroughly, and then run the numbers. Just remember to add in ALL the costs of doing business with third party distribution agreements.

39> Okay I hear you about the possible tax ramifications. But if one sets up an LLC under the wife's maiden name, with NO ownership by the husband (or vice versa) and the two file married jointly, where is the double taxation? There isn't any. One simply owns a business in name, the other owns it virtually, doing all the activities involved. If theres profit/loss it is itemized on a Schedule C. Taxes are paid on profits once. If I'm missing something, please tell me. Thanks.

David

I think the double taxation comes up only if, as K.J. supposes, you pay yourself a set royalty or salary from the corporation, whoever owns it. If you use a schedule C as David proposes, it doesn't matter who owns the company (for tax purposes; liabilities are another matter). I still operate, publishing on Kindle and at magcloud.com, as a sole proprietorship, same as I did as a freelancer getting paid by specific clients.

What I don't see, David, is how you get any kind of distribution, especially on fiction, going it entirely alone, unless your market is a very easily and narrowly identified niche. It's the age-old tradeoff between volume and proportion of proceeds. Personally, I would be willing to pay a traditional publisher the majority of the cover price to let them handle both production and marketing and leave me alone to write. And I am willing to give Amazon 65% of my cover price in exchange for access to their domination of the e-reader market and their understanding of volume. Since I have absolutely minimal production costs for Kindle and my main purpose at this time is to get my name and my work circulating, I've set the cover price lower than anyone could do in the hardcopy world.

You just have to decide what your goal is and then weigh the options. And the Internet has simply provided a wider range of options, to both writers and publishers.

41> Fiction is another matter, and yes, much tougher to swing. Still, it can be done and I have done one collection of short stories this way. I had a very large mailing list, and sold them in connection with a computer business I ran for 17 years. You see the major publishers use major distributors so the deck is stacked for huge numbers of sales. A man self-publishing does not have distribution channels--he has to make them from scratch. Reviews help tremendously. Word of mouth, too. "Papering the house" to send out a bunch of freebies to those who can influence others. I had one customer buy 20 of my short story books for gifts. Of course I did a discount for him.

But just any old novel may not be able to crack many sales--it's true, a niche book of some kind is much better. Still, how many published novels make much money for the author? Plus, publishers won't market much any more, unless you're already a name. Agents all want block-busters, or they don't want this or that, no matter how good the writing is. Me, I like variety of activity and self-publishing or collaborative publishing (several involved) keeps me busy.

40> David, I refer to royalties paid to an author, which is what the IRS will eventually look for, in your wife's LLC. If she is a publisher, then there is the expected category of royalty expense.

If you received a royalty check from her LLC, it would be taxable income to you, under USA IRS taxation codes. Notice that I did not say 'law' but taxation codes. This would be double taxation on the same income, although a smaller portion of it, to be certain. An LLC is an individual entity, similar to a corporation. The main advantage of a LLC is the liability issue and the pass-through, which it sounds like your wife is using to recapture your income from the book sales. The default for taxation makes it the same as a sole-proprietorship, unless stated otherwise, when filing. There is flexibility in a LLC which is not available to corporations, including the minimum state income tax required in some states. California requires a minimum tax on corps at 800USD, which is a helluva kick, if you have low sales. Here is some pertinent info, regarding LLCs:

http://www.companiesinc.com/llc/taxation.asp

Overall, it is a good suggestion, and folks may want to consider it. It can't hurt...too much.

42> I spoke with several authors, who all shared with me that they did not make one dime with publishers and wholesalers and are waiting for the other shoe to fall on the returns issue, which will wipe out any income they might have received, for this year. I am fortunate to have a small base from which to draw initial sales and get reviews and blog activity. Without it, it is probable that I would still have the books in my studio next Christmas. It is a toss-up at this point, to go with a major house and make no money, or sell direct and pay myself back for the production and marketing costs. The latter seems more attractive, from this viewpoint, and it keeps the price of my book at a very reasonable level.

43> No royalty checks need be issued, if one has a checking account in a dba name. One can have an LLC as a sole proprietor, partnership or corp.

If sole prop. then checks & such go into an account with the dba. Paypal can be set up likewise. A PO box, checking acct., and credit card, can all be obtained by a sole proprietor. No special tax forms, no royalty checks because NO royalties are paid! What is paid is the difference between sales & expenses. The only special tax need is a schedule C, Profit & Loss from a Business. In a community property state (I'm in Oregon) what is hers is mine, & vice versa.

Let me back up here--the whole idea of a "front" company is to get around the ridiculous stigma by some about purchasing self-published books. It's literary snobbery, pure and simple. I have found a way around it, and I claim no ownership in the publisher, though I do all the work and enjoy all the profits. I don't mind paying taxes on the profits at all--in fact, I'd gladly pay 2x, 3x taxes on profits, which would net me a LOT more than selling to wholesalers at 50-60% off the cover price.

Alex -

I appreciate much of what you have to say, but the comment, "If it were good, it wouldn't be self-published." is nonsense. There are tons of excellent self-published books, and a few million "traditionally published" that are not very good at all.

>45 PatricParamedic: I second that comment. It amounts to letting the sales departments--salespeople!--who now run the publishing houses, and their 15 percent lackeys, the agents, determine the worth of writing, which is idiotic.

46> I agree, yet, even on LT, there is a stigma attached to self-publishing. Just check out some of the forums, where this bias is openly exhibited.

This is because a very high proportion of self-published work is utter crap. Furthermore, I'd say that the fact that a bias against self-publishing doesn't seem to exist here doesn't argue well for the value of this forum to the developing writer.

Traditional publishers put out crap, too, but their crap is several cuts above the average self-published novel.

The only people who are unwilling to admit this truth are the authors of self-published novels, each and every one of whom is convinced that his work is one of the rare exceptions to the rule. And it is precisely because of that failure to be self-critical that most self-published work is crap.

Why do I harp on this point? Because, as a recent books column somewhere put it, being knocked on your ass is good for you. The young writer who, having been rejected left and right, chooses to self-publish a lousy novel instead of sitting down to write a better one is doing himself no favours. The only way to learn is to fail repeatedly; you have to acknowledge the failures and move on.

For your own sake, you owe it to yourself not to rush out and self-publish fiction.

>32 DavidHFears:.

To add to David's info: Don't put yourself down as the owner or technical contact for your publishing company's website, if you register a domain. A simple WHOIS query will reveal your well-kept secret to a clever snoop.

>48 ajsomerset:

The only people who are unwilling to admit this truth are the authors of self-published novels, each and every one of whom is convinced that his work is one of the rare exceptions to the rule. And it is precisely because of that failure to be self-critical that most self-published work is crap.

This statement allows for no exceptions, and is thus unmitigated crap.

Yes, there is definitely a stigma associated with self-published books, much probably deserved. Unfortunately, anyone can self-publish without any checks and balances, and this equates to potentially BAD books.

Having said that, there are many GOOD books that are self-published. The only thing that will distinguish the good from the bad are the reviews. A bad book will be identified very quickly from the bad reviews, and likewise, a good book will be identified the same way.

I believe LT SHOULD allow self-published books into the ER program. By LT's restrictive policy they are perpetuating the self-publishing stigma by relegating them to the admittedly failed MG program.

My personal experience with self-published work is as follows:

To date, I have read 20 verified self-published books (where i define self-publishing as: author uses a vanity/POD printer, author is the publisher, or author/author's parents own the publishing company).

More than half of them (11) I have rated 3 stars or less (3 being unimpressed, less being not worth reading). When I finish reading the three self-published books I'm reading now, assuming that what I've read is indicative of the rest of the work, I shall have read 23 self-published books, and shall have rated more than half of them as enjoyable.

In my own microcosm, this indicates to me that the likelihood of a self-published book being quality is roughly 50%.

Of the non-(confirmed) self-published books I've read and catalogued (~522, which includes some periodicals), 105 of them have been less than entertaining. That sets my expected rate of enjoyment of a "notable" publisher at ~80%.

So, I'm 30% more likely to enjoy a book published by an entity other than the author. But that's just me. Of course, I tend to buy my books from brick and mortar stores, who tend to have a smaller, or even non-existent collection of self-published books, and I tend to be selective when buying books for myself, so my expected enjoyment for self-purchased books is much higher. To get more accurate accounting, I'd have to assess such variables as "did I expect that I'd like this book?" and "did I pay for it?"

I'll admit that the flack that self-publishing gets turns me off towards "seriously" self-publishing my own writings. I have, in the past, put full copies of my NaNoWriMo novels on the internet, and put them under a Creative Commons license. But, I don't think I'd ever try, personally, to profit from self-publishing, even though I know of others who have successfully done so.

#48: The word "most" not only allows exceptions, but acknowledges their existence. Try again.

>48 ajsomerset: All right, pal. I'll "try" again. How's this: Your overly simple and unelucidating comments add nothing to this discussion but drivel. The desire of an increasing number of both "good" and "bad" writers to find alternative means to publish today means something. I'll pull rank on you (not hard to do) and note that I cannot imagine that you know as much as I do about about what gets published and why, both from my years as a struggling writer who is decidedly not crap--and has found a way to publish himself--and as a professional copyeditor for numerous mainstream publishing houses over the past thirty years.

Publishing is in crisis, somerset, both from the in-house end, where sales departments, as I noted above, have a greater say in what gets published than ever before--be it celebrity offerings like the worthless Sarah Palin and other self-serving nabobs, to the bogus best-seller lists, to the fraudulent agents, who look to make their 15 percent by representing easily published pablum, to the bookstores (and the near extinction of independent operators), to "critics" such as yourself. Glib pronouncements that ignore evidence of how the world has changed and continues to change is, frankly, worse than worthless. It's downright ignorant.

Rather than argue that self-published books are usually good, and that emerging writers should be encouraged to publish their earliest efforts rather than to keep on working, you'll appeal to your considerable authority as a freelance copyeditor and a self-published author and pull rank on me?

Are you seriously suggesting that most self-published work is good? That the entire publishing industry is blind and stupid and books are never rejected on merit? That the emerging writer should be encouraged to publish rather than to observe his work from a critical distance? That my remark on the poor quality of self-published fiction is simplistic, but your rant against the publishing industry is nuanced, careful, and not in the least related to the sour taste of any particular grape?

>56 ajsomerset: Clearly, copyedit52 knows more about the subject that you do. Your answer to him proves as much. You refute none of his points and make an ad hominen argument against something he never said: that self-published work is better than non-self-published work. You should give it up before you embarrass yourself further.

>57 clarabel:.

I believe that was, actually, a straw man, as he never directly attacked Mr. Weissman's character in an attempt to invalidate his argument.

Oh, my. Look at the sock puppet. One favorite author, one review, and look who it is! Let's not embarrass ourselves further, indeed.

The fact is that copyedit52 hasn't refuted my point, or even tried to, by anything more than appeals to authority (his own) and a cliched rant against the world of publishing. And nowhere have I said what you impute to me. (Did I erect that straw man, aethercowboy? If so, I retract; I am not saying he said self-published work was superior.)

The questions stand:
- is it not true that most self-published work is quite bad, thus the stigma?
- are we expected to believe that acquisitions editors and agents never reject books on merit?
- should the emerging writer rush to publish regardless of rejection?

>59 ajsomerset:.

From where I'm standing, it looks like you're holding a Lil' Slugger, and are standing next to a Peter Straw-man factory pumping out scarecrows.

The fact that you're asking a bunch of questions in 56 leads me to infer that either you didn't read what Peter wrote, or you have a flare for melodrama in an effort to get your point across.

Also, I'm pretty certain that Clarabel is not Peter. Peter has enough chutzpah to defend himself AS himself.

I'm pumping out questions simply to reiterate my point. If that's misunderstood as erecting straw men, I'm sorry, but that's not my intent.

Peter hasn't actually addressed my point at all -- he's given us a straw man, an ad hominem, and an appeal to authority. All I've done is ask rhetorical questions to reiterate my original point: that the last thing any emerging writer should do is rush to self-publish fiction, and that rejection should, indeed, be taken as a push to work harder and better.

But this is obviously the wrong forum for that advice.

Dear, dashing Mr. Somerset: I just took a glance at your profile to see what authority you might have. Congratulations on your upcoming publication, and your prize (with which I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar). I do see you haven't mentioned who it is who is to publish Combat Camera (sorry, I don't know how to do italics here, and I don't want to appear to shout), and I suppose I should be impressed with your humility and self-restraint (much as it may be at odds with your photo and your behavior in this forum) in not yet applying for an "author" badge.

I see you have written 70 reviews on LT. I did not go to read any of them because your posted library and mine have only one book in common, and from your presentation of yourself in this forum, I'm not really interested in what you may have thought of it. I see one of your groups is titled "Literary Snobs," and I find that quite apt.

I do note that you present your upcoming book as your "first novel." First you've written, or first you've gotten published? If the former, your recent remarks on how others should respond to rejection by traditional publishers is arrogant and even more unfeeling than it first appeared. If the latter, it is merely disingenuous (both your characterization of the book and your advice to less-successful writers).

In any case, I see nothing that might qualify you to tell others what we owe it to ourselves to not do (as you did explicitly in the last line of #48). I would be more inclined to take that kind of advice from someone who got burned by "rushing to self-publish fiction," but alas no such writer has appeared here. Should we infer that no such writer exists? Certainly not, but who are you to tell us we can gain nothing by that route? Please instead enlighten us poor craphackers as to the process by which you learned to be a writer worthy of the exaltation of REAL publishing? Maybe from that we can, indeed, grow.

#62 You might want to check out the Literary Snobs group before you go slagging it off.

As for self-published versus commercially published books... the typical self-published work is of much lower quality. Go have a look at lulu.com. Check out Jane's Smith blog on How Publishing Works. As someone once said, everyone has a book in them, but for 99.99% of people that book should stay there.

Isn't it a rule of writing that no one's first book is publishable? Always wait for the second one! Maybe return to that first one three or four books down the line, and try not to let the cringing interfere with your decision about whether or not to edit it or scrap it.

Traditional publishing has more gatekeepers than self-publishing. They weed out the really obviously bad - the people who can't spell, the people who think the rules don't apply to them, the people who target the wrong publishers, - at the first hurdle, and the "would have been good but" (the people who can't plot) at the second, and the "I like it, but it's not there yet" (the people who can't characterise) at the third, and the "I'm going to regret not taking this, but I don't think I'm the right person to sell this manuscript" (the people who need to keep querying) at the fourth. And then people get picked up by an agent, and if the market's right and the publishers have space and the bookshops haven't all gone bust, then they sell.

And if they don't completely tank, they might even get to sell another book.

The problem with self publishing is it's not just the people who are tired of querying at hurdle four who do it, or even the nearly theres of hurdles three and two. It's the people who failed at hurdle one who make up the vast majority of the literature (as they make up the vast majority of queries - seriously, most agent talk about them as making up more than 80% of their submissions).

There are some very good self published books out there. There's niche markets, and poetry, and a lot of scope for non-fiction. There's also people selling their backlists, or books signed to a publisher than went bust, or the final book in a triology after their publisher dropped it, or eBook versions of their current novels (or POD version of their current eBooks). However, without the gatekeepers readers have to sift through everything to find it. And that gets tiring quickly.

The excellent self published books are written be people who are not only good writers, but exemplary business people. They know how to source good copyeditors, editors, designers and printers. They work through several proofs before pbulishing. They have a marketing strategy. They have the charisma to talk bookshop owners into actually stocking their books. They do blog tours and viral ads and have facebook pages and twitter and myspace and they're active members here and at goodreads and they network. They know how to price a book, where to sell it from, how to make sure it's readable by as many people as possible. They understand the ramifications of print runs versus POD and the different eBook formats. They know about international rights and copyright and tax implications and conversion rates.

And they have realistic expectations. They know that more than 100 sales is a success for a self-published book (but you need to be looking at several thousand if you want to get picked up by a traditional publisher), and they know that if they want to sell even that many they have to give up most of their life to do so. They often have quite a lot of disposable income!

There are good self published books out there. People self publish for a variety of reasons, not just because they failed to leap the hoops of traditional publishing. It's just finding those shiny needles when the rest of the haystack is giving you a violent allergic reaction.

52> I believe LT SHOULD allow self-published books into the ER program. By LT's restrictive policy they are perpetuating the self-publishing stigma by relegating them to the admittedly failed MG program.

I heartily agree.

As for the continuing discussion about self-publishing, I sent my manuscript to two authors (both of whom were published by mainstream publishers) and asked their candid opinion about my writing. I know them well enough to ask this of them, and they obliged me. Their resounding approval added to my instinctual feeling that I should go ahead, and after considerable research, I determined that self-publishing was the way to go - for me. I would agree that it is not the best option for everyone, and I would welcome a publisher for my next book, which it looks like is going to actually happen.

Writing is an individual pursuit, and each of us must determine for himself (herself) what is best for his/her work. My first work was a compilation of short stories and essays, targeted to a specific audience, and did not fit easily into a publisher's slot. What did I need from them? I needed marketing, distribution and publication. Without a publisher, I still needed these three things.

I have professional marketing experience, websites and blogs, and access to friends with blogs that communicate directly with my target audience, so I do have an advantage over those without the marketing know-how and/or the tools with which to sell their books. I also have the ability to cross-market my work with another creative undertaking, so that is an added benefit. Had I not had the knowledge or the tools to sell my books on my own, I would not have self-published.

NKKingston says it best (in #64): "The excellent self published books are written by people who are not only good writers, but exemplary business people."

These two issues must be in the mix, if a self-published book is to succeed. If you can write but you can't promote you will not succeed with self-publishing.

(Edited for typo)

>62 bkswrites:.

The publisher of "Combat Camera" is an independent publishing house in Ontario known as Biblioasis. The blurb listed in his profile is from the fiction editor of that publisher. Likewise, the award cited is also hosted by that publisher, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, on the more general subject: I delved deeper into my library and purchasing habits. I realized that I am less discriminating about the books I get through the ER and MG programs on LT, as they are only a time commitment, versus books I buy for myself, which are a time AND monetary commitment. Thus, I'm more willing to try to get books I'll actually like. I formulated a hypothesis that if I were less discerning about the books I bought and read, I'd probably be closer to 50% enjoyment (or worse!), as I have a strong feeling that a good percentage of any writing is crap, regardless of publisher, self- or otherwise.

>66 aethercowboy: I have a strong feeling that a good percentage of any writing is crap, regardless of publisher, self- or otherwise.

True enough, cowboy. It does add a bit of perspective to the conversation.

>64 MinaKelly: NKKingston: A well-balanced assessment, I think. On the sales figures, I figure maybe about 400 people, all told, have so far bought my (self-published) book, I Think, Therefore Who Am I?, via Internet sources, local bookstores, and through LT (I was one group's "underappreciated author" for a month, answering questions and discussing writing and my book). I wish I had a better business head; then I might have sold more. But I'm not unhappy with 400, and the fact that I'm "out there" (I expect this will strike a chord with some) helped my morale when I sat down to write the next book. I'm now two chapters from completing that, wondering who might publish it, and in the likely event no one will--having nothing whatever to do with "worth"--I'll publish this next one myself too.

#63, sorry, I didn't mean to 'slag off' (please give me more about that usage, which if it means what I take it to mean is delicious) all members of the Literary Snobs group, just the one who was posting with such arrogance. I'm a bit snobbish myself, in that I don't bother to read crap, but like aethercowboy in #66, my willing investment of time and energy in a book is inversely proportional to the monetary investment it requires for me to obtain it. And I have discovered gems among the self-published, especially as e-books or Kindles, and among the remainder racks.

"As for self-published versus commercially published books," I went back to note #1 in this forum. No one asked for instruction on what to read. MiriamVanScott described herself clearly as having experience in both kinds of publishing, and asked "Can anyone give me the 'pros and cons' of your publishing decision? Why you chose the route you did, how it's worked out for you, would you do the same thing again, etc.?"

I suggest we all stop pontificating about what is acceptable to us as readers and get back to answering (as K.J. did eloquently in #65) Miriam's question, sharing openly writer to writer.

#64, briefly, you're absolutely right about the gatekeepers, though the lower the level of weeding, the lesser the experience of the weeder. It's not the editor (or agent, many times) to whom your query is addressed who is sorting the obviously bad, but typically some underpaid, overeducated wannabe. She (typically) is not rewarded and promoted to the "good but" level for finding gems, but for reducing the volume of every other gatekeeper's exposure; her filter is set to let through only the queries that fit the proven past experience of sales, a formula. And thus we get more and more formula fiction. Traditional publishing has been overtaken by a culture of fear, which I find antithetical to creativity.

#68. No problem. "Slag off" = insult, say bad things about. It's UK slang.

As for #1's original question... getting published by a commercial publisher means you have their marketing and distribution machine behind your book. They can get it into supermarkets and book shops.

Self-publishing means... you have to visit pretty much every store individually in order to persuade them to take copies - assuming they weren't constrained by a central buying policy (as, for example, Borders used). You also have the cost of marketing the book. In UK book stories, the most effective form of marketing is getting the book on the front-of-store tables. And that costs thousands of £. You could send free copies to book bloggers - but you'll have to carry the cost of those copies.

#69 I kind of guessed what-all you told me about "slag off"; can you tell me more, such as etymology or group/geographic origins? I come from Welsh coal-miner stock (and Italian, actually, joined in southeastern Ohio), so "slag" has a clear evocation for me. But I don't want to use even slang based on erroneous assumptions.

"As for #1's original question," I think it's pretty clear everyone here understands your basic definitions. Can you put it in "I" statements and actually answer the question?

Wow, this chat has taken some interesting twists and turns! I think there are lots of good points on all sides (i.e. many self-published books are garbage, but there are some notable exceptions) and lots to noodle through...

My question arises from the fact that after having been 'traditionally' published, I chose to go POD but was really surprised by how difficult it was to get anything going after the book came out. Many publications that loved my first books wouldn't even LOOK at a POD as per their policies, and likewise many booksellers have a strict "NO POD books on our shelves" rule. Most of the publicity / sales outlets I was able to conjure were through sources I had met the 'first time around' with my earlier books, and even those were limited at best. (I did get on the Suze Orman Show with my POD book, and that was quite a coup!)

So anyway, I was hoping to get some advice on 1) how to publicize / get stores to carry a POD; and 2) is it better to wait the 2 or 3 or more years for a traditional publisher, then be able to 'coast' at least a bit more once the book comes out? I'm interested in all opinions, but it would really help to hear from someone who's 'been there, done that, learned my lesson' so to speak.

Thanks!

I can't imagine why you wouldn't go with a traditional publisher if you could: mainly because that gets you into bookstores, if nothing else.

Since you've got a POD book on your hands, you might as well sell it! Though obviously keep writing, and when you've finished your next one you have experience in both fields to weigh up your decision (of course, you could go e...). I suspect you may have already tried quite a lot of the following, but since I don't know I figure I might as well throw everything I can think of at you, and even if it's of no help to you it might help some lurkers!

Firstly, online I recommend finding blogs and reviewers who are open to POD books. There are some that are POD specific, but the one that comes to my mind stopped posting a couple of years ago. I see you've already got a website - does it include a blog? Blogs are a good way to make sure you update your website regularly and persuade Google it's worth keeping near the top of the rankings for relevant searches. Also, if you blog, you can go on blog tours - writing articles for other blogs that link back to yours, and having big-name-bloggers write articles for yours. Perhaps repost some of your previously published articles on there instead of in PDF, if the rights allow.

Do you have the option to turn your books into eBooks? Since it's an illustrated book, at the moment you're looking at computers or tablets, really, but Disney are releasing eBooks now so it might be worth hopping on the bandwagon early. Plus, it makes your book more accessible internationally.

If you're on any forums, include the book in your sig. Try using the cover image in your bio here and elsewhere to make it really stand out - I had to read actual words to know you write! Seriously, though, people skim. Pictures are pretty.

BTW - I also followed the Amazon link in your profile, but it tells me you haven't set up your profile. This could just be because I'm in the UK (though it was amazon.com I was looking at), but since following the links from the book takes me to your author page you might just need to update your link.

In terms of bricks-and-mortar sales, work out what your hooks and niches are to talk to bookshops - I'd suggest trying independents, since there's no ruling from above, but equally they tend to have less space. Try any other locally owned business, like grocery shops - you have the "local author" hook. Since it's a seasonal book, try the bookshops again around about summer to see if they could include it in any of their Christmas displays (maybe even earlier). Nearer Christmas, call any local radio stations or newspapers that might be interested in a seasonal interview.

If any of the magazines you submit to allow it, mention your book in your byline - "article by Miriam VanScott, who's latest book, Candy Canes in Bethlehem, is available on Amazon".

If any of your local churches have shops (I don't know if you have this in the US?) see if they'd be interested in selling copies, or donate them to fundraising drives. As a kids book, local schools might be interested in letting you do readings, or donating it to their libraries (hopefully kids will love it so much they'll want a copy to rtead at home too!), and consider other youth groups or parent groups too.

One of the things that has not been emphasized here is that there is a great deal of difference when it comes to self-publishing fiction vs. non-fiction. Fiction is much tougher, because non-fiction may find a niche or meet a specific need or even make a trendy entrance, whereas fiction does not usually do those things. Fiction may inspire but usually entertains and deals with emotions; non-fiction deals with information, whether how-to-do, self-help, history, etc.

When an author has a non-fiction work that NO one else can hope to match, then I say go for the self-published IF you enjoy marketing and a challenge. You'll learn a lot about the book business and distribution channels that way. There are a couple of excellent guides to self-publishing.

When it comes to fiction, one usually has to have an agent who will shop a book deal (2, 3 or more) to likely large publishers. Small publishers can often be contacted directly but even if they take the book it's not likely their sales will amount to much.

Since #74 has brought us back around to a somewhat more realistic and tolerant POV, I'd like to take the opportunity to reiterate that self-publishing, especially in parts on the Internet, may be a way to get noticed and create new inroads to traditional publishing. I can't say it's yet worked for me, but there's enough going on to give me some hope, especially if I can find the time to do a little more marketing.

Just have to share a comment on publishing in general that I heard from Chris Bohjalian (never had a desire to read him; that much of a literary snob), quoting Gabriel Garcia Marquez on a local public-radio show: "The only reason any writer publishes is to stop rewriting."

#75 that's hardly realistic. There have been remarkably few authors who have made the jump from self-publishing to a commercial publisher. One or two blogs have done it - Belle du Jour, for one - but self-publishing a book to "get noticed" has had little or no success.

#75 #77

Not only that, but it used up certain publication rights, which means traditional publishers are more limited in what they can do with the book and how much they're willing to offer you for it. If you want a traditional publisher, submit to traditional publishers. Only self-publish if you're sure you don't.

(I read a wonderful piece a little while back by someone who self-published their romance novels, knowing what they were going into and how to make the best out of what they were doing, but I never saved the link and googling "romance self published guest blog" isn't getting me anywhere)

NK: I have the copyright on my book, published by a make-a-lot-of-money-for-ourselves outfit that sells as many books to the author as possible. Is this different than "publication rights"?

Depends. You will own the copyright on a book, but the publisher may have contracted the publishing rights for a specified period of time, or until the book is no longer in print, or some other condition is true. Those publication rights will generally be region/language-specific and might also be format-specific: e.g., paperback English language first publication rights.

#77, #78 You've gone back to telling me what I ought to do/not rather than sharing your own experience. And you're not addressing what I said (pieces/Internet). And you're speaking from ignorance of exactly what material I'm talking about publishing.

As it happens, the pieces I've begun self-publishing on the Internet are free-standing stories from a genre-bending work of biblical interpretation. I'm noticing the ways that at least some traditional publishers are also experimenting with mixed media, and figure I might be able to suggest to them ways to use mixed media for my work. And in the meantime, maybe I'll establish a wider following and even pick up a buck or two.

I am entirely realistic enough to know that, as an unknown, I'm unlikely to get an advance that will support me to complete my novel (another project). But the other project, because it has freestanding pieces, may be able to generate its own advance (and I've also experimented with other ways to finance proceeding on it — see kickstarter.com and the sites that manage microfinancing without banks).

My big point is that even traditional publishing is changing, and I think the lines may be blurring between self- and traditional. The various forms of electronic and Web publishing are changing the formulas, and I hope to take advantage of those changes to settle in somewhere between the two old extremes. If you've tried that and it didn't work, it would help me to know some details. But if all you have to offer is naysaying, please spare me.

Yes. Unless you sign a very bad contract, the copyright is always yours. You can sell rights to companies for different things. For example, the one self-publishing usually takes is "first publication rights". Publishers like first publication rights because it means they're selling the book exclusively, and no one else has sold it before it (it's a virgin market). By self-publishing, you've essentially popped that cherry! It's much harder to sell a book to a traditional publisher once you've used first publication rights up unless you can prove that you can offer them a ready-built market of people gagging to buy your book (and you're looking at a ready built market of tens of thousands, since that's what the traditional publisher would be hoping to sell). I don't really know why it's such an issue, but I guess it's something to do with marketting - any takers?

Of course, there's a whole bunch of other rights you could sell too. You might sell serial rights to a magazine, to publish your book chapter by chapter, or audio rights to someone who makes audio books, or electronic rights to an e-publisher, or foreign rights to sell your book abroad. However, most traditional publishers buy all these rights and sell them on themselves, using their clout to get good deals - apart from electronic rights (see recent news stories about Randon House for why!) the publisher usually gets a better deal than the author, so though you're sacricifing some of your earnings by giving them these rights instead of selling them yourself they'll probably make a bigger profit than you could have on your own. If it comes to e-rights, the royalties offered by many print publishers are insultingly low - lower than print royalties - and if you've managed to hang on to them it's worth trying to sell them to an ePub or even go it alone, as long as you've got the stomach to tell people who bought your latest print book that they want to buy backlist online.

Other things to look out for:
- contracts that take publication rights "for the life of copyright". In most countries this is until 70 years after your dead, so you have no control over than book again.
- contracts that demand to publish your next book too. Usually it's the "right of first refusal", so they can yay or nay your next book before you start offering it to other publishers. Sometimes it's genre specific. Dara Joy had a massive falling out with her publisher because they disagreed on whether her 'new' book was romance or sci fi, and she decided to go for self-publishing afterwards. Unfortunately, she managed to upset most of her fans, and the venture hasn't really worked out for her...
- contracts that don't have a clause about releasing your rights back to you if something happens to the company. When a publisher goes bust (traditional, vanity, or any other kinds) the manuscripts are considered financial assets to be given over to any of the publisher's creditors, who don't have to honour any contract made with you (i.e. they don't have to pay you any royalties!). Release clauses aren't bulletproof, but it at least reduces your chances of seeing LowBlow publishing selling your book and keeping all the money.

It's a minefield no matter which route into publishing you take, but you really need to get your head around rights issues. It's too easy to sign away more than you meant to, or to accidentally infringe against your own publisher. And if you ever see a contract that asks for your copyright instead of certain rights (and within a certain time frame), run a mile - they're either amateurs paving the road to hell or conmen about the exploit the hell out of you.

#81 Try reading what I actually wrote in #77. I pointed out that very, very few people have made the jump from self-publication to commercial publication. It doesn't matter what you're actually publishing.

It's certainly true that the publishing industry is undergoing change. It's been doing that for the past few decades. All these evangelists for self-publishing are only making excuses for their own failure to land a contract with a commercial publisher. On average, a self-published title will sell less than 50 copies. Even making fiction available on a web site/blog is no guarantee of readership. I have two previously-published stories of my own free for download up on my blog, and they've probably been downloaded no more than 30 or 40 times. If I'd had a book published by a commercial publishers, however... I could probably expect 10 to 100 times as many downloads.

>83 iansales: Oh no, not this again. Many, most likely the vast majority, of those who self-publish do not do it because of their "failure" to land a contract with a commercial publsher, the implication being that it's their fault. We've gone over this iansales: shape up. It's a tough world out there for all of us, including those who would like to be "commercially accepted" and run aground for a lot of reasons that has nothing to do with us.

#83 All these evangelists for self-publishing are only making excuses for their own failure to land a contract with a commercial publisher.

That's a pretty broad brush you're wielding, isn't it?

80> The key to the publishing rights begins with whose ISBN is on the book.

83> All these evangelists for self-publishing are only making excuses for their own failure to land a contract with a commercial publisher.

I assume that reference is not being made to me, since I do not stand at the pulpit for self-publishing. Nor did I approach any major publisher for my first work. Instead, I chose to do it on my own for many reasons, one of which was the large number of publishers who have closed up shop in the past few years, many whom left their authors without a dime - and without the rights to their work, which, as NKKingston states in #82, is due to the fact that bankruptcy classified the manuscripts as assets, the value of which was shared by the creditors, not the authors. I have no intention of allowing my work to end up in this manner. This was a significant reason for my decision.

#81 And you're speaking from ignorance of exactly what material I'm talking about publishing.
Well, yes. You didn't tell us what material it is. Since you hadn't specified you were working on something Traditional Publishers aren't currently considering, I was offering general advice regarding your statement about Trad Publishers picking up self-published work - i.e. that it's very uncommon, and if a person self-publishes fiction in that hope they are very likely to be disappointed.

But the other project, because it has freestanding pieces, may be able to generate its own advance

(technically it's not an advance unless a publisher's pay it to you prior to making any sales - your way it's just well-earned royalties!) Regarding freestanding pieces - again, if you're publishing bits of a work, it detracts from the eventual set of rights you can offer a publisher. There's always that annoying point in the seesaw - if you attract a large enough audience to attract a trad publisher you've probably attracted a large enough audience to keep going it alone, if it suits you.

If it's mixed media, have you considered Enhanced eBooks? It's a concept that's a bit ahead of its market, so it could be good to get involved now. Basically, normal eBooks are digital versions of paperbooks, but enhanced eBooks can include images, music, hyperlinks, and all sorts. Print publishers don't want to offer eBooks for less than print books, as they're afraid of cannabalising their own market (which I think is nonsense, personally) but they know customers perceive them as being worth less because they have fewer uses - you can't easily lend them, or resell them, or use them to prop up wobbly table... Hence: enhanced eBooks! Put some of the value back into them, and keep the market bouyant.

Personally, I prefer working with ePubs, many of which offer higher royalties rather than advances. What I write doesn't suit traditional publishers either (novella erotica, at the moment*) but ePublishers can be a lot more flexible about the length of books. The market for the genre is one of the fastest growing and earliest adopters of new technology. Will I go to a traditional publisher if I ever get around to finishing my fantasy novels? Yes. Will I go to a printer if I ever get around to making that anthology of my university's writing magazine? Yes. It's knowing which market best suits your current work, and being aware that there's not a lot of crossover. If self-publishing suits you and your work, then why bother worry about getting a traditional publisher at all? Keep doing what you're doing, and wait for the publishing world to catch up.

*complete disclaimer: I currently have a rewrite request I'm about to resubmit, not a contract in my hands.

One huge problem I'm having is that I'm not very 'tech saavy' and have given up on Twitter, Facebook, etc. at least for now. I'm not sure that's my 'target demo' anyway.

I would also disagree that people go the self-publishing route ONLY when they've failed to get a traditional contract --- I never sent my ms. to anyone and knew while writing it I would go POD. I've since learned the pitfalls of that decision but am still not sure waiting 2-3 years to find a new agent (my current agent doesn't handle children's books) then wait on contract negotiations, then wait for my publisher to get around to my title and hope nothing goes wrong during that time would have been better. There are advantages to my going POD (ease and time from draft copy to final printed product, etc.) as well as drawbacks.

One of the biggest 'pros' for me is that I had an actual book to 'shop around' to the media right away while it was still fresh and my enthusiasm was high and that did help land some great spots that are helping me in other areas. I was featured on several local TV shows and newspaper pieces and I'm in Phoenix (a pretty large market) so that exposure helped me get other freelance work and great blurbs for my resume. I also 'parlayed' the success into a short promo spot on The Suze Orman Show and that opened doors for me too. My book is on Christmas, and I've already been invited back and gotten requests to do new shows / features for Christmas 2010 --- and if I had waited for a traditional publication deal none of that would have been possible. I'd still be waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting.... rather than doing, doing, doing.

Having said that, I won't ge going POD for my current ms. (also a childrens' book) and my new 'issue' is whether to try to find a new agent to handle it or to shop it myself. I've made many great contacts with my POD book campaign and at this point am ready to try 'going it alone' to get a contract with a traditional publisher. Maybe that will fail spectacularly and I'll be 'agent-hunting' soon, but at least I'm learning a lot about the whole publishing business as I go along!

I'm much less concerned with those who speak from our own experiences (and hopes and dreams) than those who lecture and put down others from their prejudices.

No time now to read in more detail than that.

#84. The vast majority who self-publish do so because their work is not good enough for a commercial publisher. There are also those who feel their work is so niche that a commercial publisher would not be interested but, by definition, they're in a tiny minority. And there are those who, for reasons of their own, choose to self-publish. They are also a minority.

And yes, if you're not published by a commercial publisher and you're serious about being published, then it is your fault. You haven't written something good enough, or commercial enough, for a publisher. I know one author, whose debut novel was published last year and went to a third printing in hardback, who delivered four manuscripts to his agent in the space of three years before the final was taken by a publisher. It takes perseverance.

You could stay true to your "singular artistic vision", of course. But if you're good enough, then no matter how unique your work you should be able to find a publisher willing to take a chance on you. House of Leaves wasn't self-published, after all.

#86 - which publishers went bankrupt and kept the manuscripts? AFAIK, none of the big commercial publishers have done that, although I may be mistaken.

#88. True, not every self-published author has been rejected by a commercial publisher. Some simply don't think their work is good enough to be submitted... although they'll happily self-publish. Then again, JK Rowling, Frank Herbert's Dune, Stephen Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant... all were famously rejected many times before being published.

Personal experience? I self-published an anthology of fiction by my local writing group. I used lulu.com, got a friend to do the cover art, and a published sf author to write an introduction. Another member of the group provided an ISBN. The book is available through Amazon. I sold around thirty copies at a sf convention, and a further 15 or so to members of the group and friends. No copies have been sold through Amazon. A local sf shop took 3 copies and sold 2. The book is available in the local branch of Waterstone's, but they've sold no copies.

The anthology was launched in April 2009. Total copies sold to date = 42.

So you didn't think your group's work was good enough for traditional publishing? I'd be most upset if I were a member of your group!

We put together the anthology to promote the group - it's not a project a commercial publisher would be interested in. But no, not every member of the group is good enough to be commercially published.

So has it accomplished the goal of promoting the group (by whatever metric you'd established)? If so, it doesn't matter how many other copies were or will be sold, the project is a success, self-publishing served your purpose.

The facebook group and the blog have probably done more to promote the group than the anthology. I have to admit there was an element of vanity to the project - i.e., seeing our work in print. Some of us in the group have been published elsewhere - in paying markets - but not everyone has. There was no editorial process for the anthology, beyond copy-editing. People chose what they wanted to go in, and two members of the group formatted the manuscript and checked for spelling and grammar mistakes.

90> I discovered several smaller publishers - the ones most likely to take on a newcomer like myself - while I was researching the possibilities for my book. This research began several years ago, and I did not keep a list of the failed publishers - and their very unhappy authors - so I can provide you with no information about the ones I ran into. Some were mentioned on blogs and forums, and others in news stories. Since they were no longer in business - and of no future benefit to me, I saw no need to retain any information about them. Seemed sensible, oui?

Here's what one second of googling found and, yes, some are ebook publishers:

Publishers That Have Closed

Aphrodite's Apples, which specialized in romance titles.
Avari Press, a fantasy publisher whose website is defunct.
All Romance Books, a former romance book publisher whose site now contains dating tips and MP3 downloads.
Americana Publishing Inc., an audiobook publisher that closed in December 2005.
Burnt Duck Publishing, a not-for-profit publisher that lost backing in 2009 and was forced to close.
Cambrian Publications, which is no longer publishing books but still lists its previous catalog of work at http://www.cambrianpubs.com.
Carnifex Press, a horror, fantasy and science-fiction publisher that closed in 2009.
Cavalier Press, a former LGBT publisher in the process of reopening but currently not publishing books.
Chippewa Publishing, an e-publisher that closed because of the owner's illness.
Dark Eden Press, an e-publisher of erotica that closed in 2008.
De Novo Publishing, a North Carolina publisher that closed in 2008.
Denlinger's Publishers Ltd., now selling off everything associated with its name, including its domain and printing facilities.
Disc-Us Books Inc., a former publisher of new and reprinted books on disk.
Eggplant Literary Productions, which went on hiatus in December 2005 but closed completely soon after.
Electric eBook Publishing, an e-book publisher that closed because of the economy.
Fatcat Press, an e-publisher whose website says it is closed.
Fortitude Press Inc., an LGBT publisher that still sells titles from its previous catalog but is no longer publishing new titles.
JB Books, a publisher that is now only a book seller.
Lady Oracle ePublishers, a former romance e-book publisher.
Mathews Books, which moved from agency to publisher in 2004 but whose site is defunct.
Meisha-Merlin, a publisher that still sells from previous catalogs but does not publish new titles.
New Age Dimensions Inc., a publisher that has sold all rights and past titles.
NF Publishing, a publisher whose website is defunct and cannot be found online.
Promart Publishing, a small publisher that closed after its owner died.
Rain Publishing, which closed in 2008.
The Reader's Retreat, a publisher that sold its domain to an actual retreat that does not publish books.
Red Engine Press, whose site now leads to a restaurant site.
RJ's eBooks, which closed in 2009.
Shadowrose Publishing, which still has books circulating under its name but whose website is defunct.
Silver Dragon Books, which has not published titles since 2004.
Silver Lake Publishing, a once-speculative fiction publisher that was sold to a book seller.
Subatomic Books Publishing, whose domain name is for sale.
Tarseed Press, a children's book imprint of H.J. Kramer Inc. no longer taking on new titles.
TreeSide Press, a Canadian publisher that closed in 2005.
Triskelion Publishing, a women's fiction site that closed in June 2007.
Whippoorwill Press, whose site now links to Amazon.
Winterwolf Publishing, now closed.
WriteWay Publishers, which went bankrupt in 2005.

So you didn't think your group's work was good enough for traditional publishing? I'd be most upset if I were a member of your group!

Actually, commercial puplishers rarely take short fiction, as it's not commercial (funnily enough!). Short stories are usually the realm of magazines, journals, and some small independent publishers. When the big publishers commit to an anthology it's usually because the editor has a big enough name to sell it, or the vast majority of the stories are received a lot of attention elsewhere. I believe they're often commisioned in house - i.e. "we want a horror anthology, so we're going to find a famous horror author and get them to ask around other horror writers and editors and pick out some short stories". Unless your writer's group is headed by Steven King, the odds of getting a trad publisher to touch your anthology are second to none. So self-publishing is pretty much the norm, and pretty much the best route to take, in these circumstances.

#96. Ah. Of that list, I've heard of Meisha-Merlin. They were a genre small press. And it looks like the others were small presses too. I thought you were referring to big commercial imprints.

#97. Actually, I don't think that's as true now as it was a few years ago. In sf, you have the Fast Forward, Eclipse, Mammoth Book of and Solaris anthologies. Not to mention the themed anthologies, such as The New Space Opera. There aren't as many as there were back in the 1960s and 1970s, but they do seem to be more prevalent than they were five years ago.

>99 iansales:.

Added to that is Nightshade books, who regularly publish short fiction anthologies edited by John Joseph Adams.

>90 iansales:

And yes, if you're not published by a commercial publisher and you're serious about being published, then it is your fault. You haven't written something good enough, or commercial enough, for a publisher ...

What can I say that I haven't said before? Or that others haven't also said, above (K.J. at #96, NKKingston at #97). This "either no good" or "not commercial" is nonsense. There are other reasons, albeit ones that won't anoint those who have been published "commercially" as a superior class; that might threaten something they would like to believe.

>101 copyedit52:.

Face it, Peter: your self-published book, which has a 4.5 average star rating, is not as good as something published commercially, even though not a single negative review of it appears in LibraryThing. (,;;,)

(granted, it's only 14 reviews. I'm sure there's someone out there who'll hate it...)

#101. Ah, the secret gatekeepers of commercial publishing and their arcane rituals of entry. Er, no. It's not the Freemasons. Publishers are in the business of making money. They won't turn down a manuscript they think will make them money.

Both #96 - small press publishers went under on a regular basis before POD even existed - and #97 - no one publishes anthologies any more - are neither true nor relevant.

>102 aethercowboy:. "Yes," he said, bowing his head in supplication to the supposed powers-that-be. "How foolish of me not to realize that what a thing is labeled is what determines true worth."

It's occured to me that we've got two things going on in this thread, and one might well be interfering with the other, which is a genuine search for information. So perhaps we need another thread, one that might be called Duking it out: the haves vs. the have-nots; the published and the self-published.

>104 copyedit52:. Are there any others who fall into BOTH categories --- published and self-published? I'm feeling a bit alone here...

I don't know, Miriam, but (call me old-fashioned, in a French Revolutionary sort of way) the way I see it, we're all writers, whatever our varying talents, present abilities, good fortune or trials and tribulations in getting published.

I agree that if you write, you are a writer. There are a few self published books that DO get picked up by traditional publishers after they have sold 5,000 copies (which sadly enough is a LOT in publishing these days.) If you are willing to kill yourself doing publicity, getting on line, getting on blogs, maybe putting some money into it, you can get some coverage, but you're right. I review for People and Boston Globe and we don't review self-published books. Bookstores may not want to carry them, either. But this is changing. Time Magazine recently reviewed some self-published books that did very well. And a self-published friend of mine had a reading at a NYC store that was packed!

I would always opt for the regular publishing route if possible simply because you get more support, you can attract more attention, and get more readers. But if you do self publish, get online, get to all the blogs you can, and make sure you have a blog of your own and a website and that you promote like crazy.

Good luck!

Caroline

# 105

I fit into both categories, fortunately or unfortunately. My first book was with a small traditional publisher. After publication, the publisher went under. Afterwards, I self-published the same book and its sequel. For many of the reasons stated within this thread, mainly the stigma associated with self-published, it didn't do that well. I have now been picked up by another small traditional press. Neither are the best way to go, but the traditional route, in my estimation, is the best way to go, the bigger the better.

The big publishers should be the main focus with their massive distribution network, but it is the hardest goal to reach. Most DO require having a major agency, but finding a good agent is a difficult task.

I once had a very popular SciFi author tell me that self-publishing is the "kiss of death" with the major publishers and agents. Once you get that on your book history, they will seldom take a look. Even publication with a small press can do major damage. The small presses don't reach the major distribution and marketing targets necessary for sales, and low sales create a negative stigma as well.

I never give up, however. What I did was start all over and wrote a completely new and different book with no history or affiliation with my other books, and I remained determined to do this one right. I have since been successful in signing with a major NY Agent, who is currently marketing this new book to the big publishers. I am hopeful things will work out differently this time.

108> Bonne chance! I hope it works out for you and do keep us posted on your progress with this.

I think there may also be differences worth noting between genres.

Speaking as an editor now, not a writer--one who has copyedited books (as a freelancer) for mainstream publishers for almost thirty years--I can attest to the importance of fitting into a genre: romance, mystery, horror, scifi (with subgenres such as alternative history, fantasy, comic-book-type heroes), vampire/werewolf/shapeshifter/etc. books (and vampire romances, let's not forget them).

Further, it certainly helps, so far as sales departments and acquisitions editors are concerned (alas, when it comes to placing my own memoir-type stuff, I have no pull with them, being in the editing end of things), to write serials within any of these genres. Some of the writers I edit regularly are franchises, producing a book a year: John Saul (horror), Anne McCaffrey (scifi/fantasy), and for a while (and a dozen books) Harry Turtledove (scifi/alternative history).

Writing in a genre of course does not guarantee getting published, of course, but it might help when it comes to being considered, since everyone is looking for a niche nowadays, in our own field as well as others.

There's a lot of assumptions about the desire to get published here. What if you don't care about publication? What if you don't care about money or sales or even how many people read it? I have friends who publish through lulu because they like being able to hold their book in print. They post all their work online for free. If other people buy it from lulu, that's okay, but the authors would rather they comment to say they liked it than express it financially. They're people who like their day jobs. They're OAPs who've retired and want something to keep them motivated and focused. They're housewives/husbands who love spending time with the kids but wants something outside of that to ensure they feel like a grown ups. They're students who need to take their mind off their dissertations. They're people who write for fun.

Personally, I don't ever want to write full time. I don't have the discipline to work "from home", no matter what the profession. I like my day job (which even allows time to write in winter). I'm looking for a paying hobby. Do I want to be signed by London or New York? Honestly, no. They'd have expectations I couldn't meet. I want to write short stories around my current work for magazines and ezines. I want to ePub novellas. I want to do my promotion online, because it's cheaper and easy and doesn't involve taking time off work to do so.

(I tend to fall out with anyone who insists that to be a writer you have to take it seriously. I write :. I am a writer. Publication status and medium has nothing to do with it.)

NK: I was offering info that might interest some people, and that I'm in a better position than some to know about. It wasn't meant to advocate anything, to say there's only one reason to write or one track toward getting published, or even whether getting published is the only reason to write.

I don't have a problem with people who write for fun or to express themselves or who see writing as an art form either --- I'm just on the 'other end' of that spectrum --- I see writing as my 'job' and am looking for some business advice!

Copyedit --- I hear it's also increasingly important to pitch as marketing plan along with the actual book project. Do you find that to be the case? Or do you work with established writers for whom marketing is more or less 'automatic?'

Actually, what I meant in #110 was that the self/multimedia/traditional balances are different for different genres. GaryBabb in #108 talked about scifi. I have a big multipart work in religion, but I don't have the kinds of credentials that religion editors' assistants have tattooed on their brains as first filters, so I don't have very high hopes of getting past the slush piles. Thus, I'm trying Internet self-publishing. So far, I can blame my own lack of promotion for its failure.

I'm not sure that a hobby writer has a horse in this race, other than to claim even greater obvious superiority for a product that gets any kind of commercial publication 'when I didn't even want it.' Well, obviously, it was wanted enough to send the ms.

>114 MiriamVanScott: I'm certainly not an authority on marketing. I had to find a publisher for my book and then use their marketing "program" (quotes to indicate its lousiness) to promote myself. I also, briefly, had an agent for that same book, one of those (there are many) who will accept you provisionally, which means they show the book or describe it to a few people and if they don't get any easy sell, say, "Sorry, but good luck." Anyway, she gave me advice on how to sell my book, which mainly came down to selling myself. (Given my memoir subject matter, I was to become an archetypal hippie who'd somehow survived the sixties intact, which also drew upon where I live now: Woodstock, New York.) I did learn a few things, but mainly what not to do because it's a waste of time; lessons I will apply when I get the next one published (I'll be finished in a week or so).

You linked this question with one about established writers. I don't work with writers: I edit their manuscripts, after the mss. are accepted for publication. I am the hands-on language and style guy, not involved at all with acquisitions or selling. As I noted before, in kless detail, the limitations of specialization became clear when I tried to use my editorial contacts to get a fair in-house reading for my own manuscript. But knowing, intimately, what they publish, I can say (without sour grapes at all, just the facts, ma'am): it's their loss.

# 112

I think what you describe is a classic example of a perfect FIT for self-publishing. It all depends on the goals a writer established for him/herself.

>112 MinaKelly: - I write :. I am a writer. Publication status and medium has nothing to do with it.). I have a problem with this statement. If I fix the toilet or the taps that doesn't make me a plumber. If writing is a profession then in order to be a writer you have make professional sales.
Because everyone can write, everyone thinks they can be a writer. Perhaps it was ever thus but technological changes has allowed everyone to publish their writing in one way or another, meaning that now we seem to have more writers than readers. There has to be a dividing line between someone who is a writer and someone who writes as a hobby (or with the aim of being published) - the clear dividing line would seem to professional publication.
Does this mean that everything that is published professionally is good? No. Does it mean it is better than self-published work? No.

Just finished my latest book yesterday, as I noted on another Writer-Reader thread. I've gone thorough the stages with agents and mainstream publishers long enough over many years to not even bother with them now. So, here's what I'll be looking for in what I suppose we're calling a self-publisher:

It has to be put in book form--a cover, pages, binding. I'm not interested in kindle and probably never will be.

I have to be the one to copyedit it, since I do that professionally at least as well than anyone else, and for less. Though I might accept proofreading, if the fee isn't too stiff.

The book has to be priced reasonably. I had to pay Xlibis to get them to lower the price on my psychedelic memoir!

Whoever publishes it must be an Internet distributor (to amazon, B&N, etc.), since I don't want to extensively peddle my book in bookstores, which often, I discovered with I Think, Therefore Who Am I?, do not accept books on consignment anyway.

No matter how you publish it, copyedit52, congratulations on finishing it!

Thank you, Barbara. This one took two years, where the first took about thirty. No kidding. But the first time around I was assimilating influences and learning how to do this and that--dialogue, description, and my particular bete noir (being an anecdotal writer), transitions, while working jobs (e.g., as a mailman) that didn't jibe well with finding writing time or the energy to do it. Maybe I can finish the next one in a year. (Now I am kidding; I can't imagine that.)

Congrats, copyedit52! Completing a book truly is a great accomplishment! Best of luck in the new phase of selling / marketing it, but it sounds like you know your stuff and are well on your way!

Peter, I was trying very hard not to let the green show through in my note. My bete is finishing (been working on the main novel for more than a decade, though with a full stop for the setting to catch up, in addition to those no-time-to-write jobs). The self-pub experiments I've been talking about here are the only way I can see to maybe use more installment-friendly projects, and other kinds of writing, to give me a way to finish that novel.

Whatever you have to do, do, is the way I see it, Barbara. One thing that's not mentioned in all these debates about who's a writer and who isn't, and traditional vs. self-publishing vs. no publishing at all, is the psychological, morale boost that some of us--certainly me--need, working in isolation as writers usually do, and that getting it "out there" supplies.

So here's another tiny piece of the self-pub-self-promote world: I managed to snag an LT ER copy of a forthcoming book from a major publisher (Anthill by E.O. Wilson, Norton in April). In addition to LT, I've published (actually a longer version) my comments on a site called Associated Content www.associatedcontent.com/article/2730113/book_review_anthill_by_eo_wilson_april.html
. It doesn't cost readers, but I get paid some teensy bit for the number of clicks on my material. I see it as another way to get my stuff out there and hope to get myself noticed, in a number of different worlds.

# 119
Congratulations on finishing your book. I bet it feels good. huh?

I take it your experience with Agents and big publishers hasn't been successful. Personally, I would encourage you to try again. You might knock on a thousand doors and hear "NO", but it only takes one to open and say "YES".

I would venture to say that what you have learned writing your first book, makes your second book better. Sometimes it takes the second try to reach your goal. From my experience (post here #105) sometimes how you publish can do more harm than good. I would recommend that you not get in a hurry to self-publish and try once more to find an Agent that can get you to the bigger publishers. You can always self-publisher later if it doesn't work out. For what it is worth, that's my suggestion.

Good luck with what you decide.

Fiction sells much better in ebook format than POD. Kindle is a godsend in this regard.

For example, both of my fiction books have sold 50 copies in the month of February. That's about 1/10th of what a midrange author can hope to sell in a year.

It is work. You have to keep stirring the pot. Get on the forums, come out with new releases on a regular basis. And you must be extra-vigilant about editing.

But hey, would you rather put all that time into garnering rejection slips?

Further to Kindle publishing, I know at only 2nd hand (and reliable hand in the middle) of a writer who's making thousands a month on $2 electronic fiction. She also got a film option. She is apparently very good at stirring the pot.

I was also reminded by exposure in a writing group this morning that another element of the issue is production values — does the typography look like it was done on autopilot? And that question doesn't apply only to self-pubs. Also, contrary to copyedit52's attachment to his own creative product and confidence in what he does for others', I think we all desperately need the help of fresher eyes.

Here's a nasty little landmine to be aware of:
http://www.passwordincorrect.com/2010/02/21/indie-writers-beware-of-ghost-publis...

We already know that an a published author's work really begins with marketing and promoting our work.

I chose the route of self-publication for my relaunch because I feel I am my own best advocate and am my own tedious best editor, having gleamed things other editors had missed the first time round with an independent publisher.

I like being in control and marketing my book online. I am not concerned with my book's availability in brick and mortar stores. The Internet has offered me valuable opportunities to become visible to readers.

Best wishes in choosing your own suitable paths to achieve publication.

Eva Pasco
Author, Underlying Notes
http://www.booklocker.com/books/4431.html

>128 bkswrites:. Why contrary to my own "attachment" to my creative product, etc.? I never suggested that others should take my path. I even, somewhere (it's hard to keep track of all these different threads) say I'd go along with proofreading. But editing copy is something else entirely, as I well know. Why pay someone and then have to undo their work when you know better? As in (an entirely plausible copyeditor's changes in italics): Why would you want to pay someone else and then have them undo your work?

Because I like the way I put it better.

>131 copyedit52: Didn't mean to offend. I was speaking mostly for myself, despite being known in my last staff writing job as "nitpicker in chief" (and it goes beyond proofreading). I don't find I need to be forced to rely upon the kindness of strangers; I mostly hope for caring peer review.

Okay, no argument. Let me just add this: if someone else edits or proofreads your work, the unspoken rule that honorable publishers follow--and good copyeditors too--is that all changes are to be considered provisional. That is, the author has the right to undo changes, if he or she desires.

Or you can always say to the publisher, or prospective publisher: "Thanks but no thanks, I'm taking my work elsewhere." Some among us (this doesn't apply to me) might well go the self-publishing route for exactly this reason.

The excellent self published books are written be people who are not only good writers, but exemplary business people. They know how to source good copyeditors, editors, designers and printers. They work through several proofs before pbulishing. They have a marketing strategy. They have the charisma to talk bookshop owners into actually stocking their books. They do blog tours and viral ads and have facebook pages and twitter and myspace and they're active members here and at goodreads and they network. They know how to price a book, where to sell it from, how to make sure it's readable by as many people as possible. They understand the ramifications of print runs versus POD and the different eBook formats. They know about international rights and copyright and tax implications and conversion rates.

And they have realistic expectations. They know that more than 100 sales is a success for a self-published book (but you need to be looking at several thousand if you want to get picked up by a traditional publisher), and they know that if they want to sell even that many they have to give up most of their life to do so. They often have quite a lot of disposable income!

There are good self published books out there. People self publish for a variety of reasons, not just because they failed to leap the hoops of traditional publishing. It's just finding those shiny needles when the rest of the haystack is giving you a violent allergic reaction.

(NK Kingston)...I couldn't say it any better.

My first novel was picked up by an independent publisher and was edited (to my delight, very little needed). Due to very low royalties, I scouted for another and chose Booklocker (again, not all submissions are accepted).

Because I have the knack and self-criticism to edit my own work which is tedious, I will opt for self-publishing again, pretty much adhering to what was aforementioned by NK Kingston.

The publishing world is changing...even trad houses pick up what titillates and the shelf life is very short. On the other hand, I will work around the clock tirelessly to promote my book--essentially promoting myself through the belief I have a story worth reading.

Eva Pasco
Author, Underlying Notes
http://www.booklocker.com/books/4431.html

Eva, I agree with your points.

I made my circumstance more complicated because I wrote a book in English, and I live in Europe where English is not the primary language, so getting my book into standard bookstores is not easy, although I will persist. Last year, I was indisposed and unable to attend the Frankfurt Book Fair, which is one of the biggest in the world. In 2010 I will be there.

Personally, I enjoy the speed and efficiency of the self-publishing model. The major advantage big publishers have/used to have is the wide distribution network with physical bookstores (+ reviews in mass media outlets that would provide exposure)--but I suppose the internet shakes up some of that.

I strongly feel more comfortable with self-publishing. At least I know full well what I'm getting myself into, whereas on the traditional side, I feel too much is based on "luck" and "chance," which is a relatively easy way to shirk accountability and responsibility (for conducting market research on what customers truly want, for instance).

All good gamblers know their stakes--I personally feel self-publishing (right now, with the empowerment of technology + new media) is the saner, stabler choice. Why wait till a book goes "out of print" so that you can wrestle back the electronic rights, when you could own those rights and do whatever you wish with them in the first place? Traditional publishers don't really do much to market/promote midlist authors too--another reason that doesn't justify their bulk of royalties.

I shall cease "rambling," and end with--

1) the #1 PRO of indie publishing for me: Speed + Efficiency.

2) a variation of a Mark Twain quote: "I'd rather stay out, than get out of trouble" ^^.

I came across a blog the other day that I thought would appeal to those of you who have self-published - The Self Publishing Review. The blogger will review any self-published book sent to her, but stops after the fifteenth error and reports how far she got (or earlier, if the writing's truly diabolical - but having hung around here for a while I can be fairly certain you guys won't fall into that category). I've actually been inspired to pick up a couple of books from there, so as an advertising thing it's worth a shot.

Traditional publishers don't really do much to market/promote midlist authors too--another reason that doesn't justify their bulk of royalties.

Minor quibble - Marketing and Promoting are different things. Promoting is what the author does, but Marketing is the behind-the-scenes stuff publishers do. Marketing, not only gets books into the catalogues bookshops order from, but also sends a sales team around bookshops to persuade managers to pick their book over the several thousand others in the catalogue. Marketing pays for books to go face out rather than spine out, to sit on tables rather than shelves, or go next to the tills rather than in a dark corner. Marketing sends out ARCs to the trade reviewers (the other things bookshop owners use to decide what to stock).

All of these things are pretty expensive, which is why POD and self-publishers are almost completely shut out from this side of the business. A lot of trade reviews won't take POD books, and a lot of bookshops won't touch anything that's non-returnable in bulk.* Because of the outlay, Trad publishers pay advances - they're essentially challenging themsleves to make that outlay back.** Because of the advances, they pay much smaller royalties.

Promotion covers things the author can arrange for themselves, but many examples - such as radio slots, book signings, and conventions appearances - would be something a traditional publisher would arrange on behalf of even a midlist author if they thought it appropriate. Adverts are the same, where POD and self-published authors are obviously capable of arranging those themselves but a trad published author would probably be discouraged from doing something like that without the marketing department's say-so. Websites, social networking, mailing lists, etc, are all the domain of the author alone in most cases.

I'll restrain myself from burbling about how much I like ePublishing again - suffice to say I was accepted by one of my favourite ePublishers and I'm a little bit starry eyed over it all right now! However, I did make a decision between going through a publisher or doing it myself (I flatter myself to think between my InDesign skills, my beta readers and people I could have commissioned for a cover it would have at least passed muster), but on reflection I knew my attempts at building an audience so far haven't worked as well as I'd hoped and that I needed a professional's help in getting my book not just out there, but actually read. I'd like to dip into it at some point, but probably for a little vanity project - a collection of short stories or something like that which won't break my heart if I fail to make it sell well.

*I'm not approving of this, in case you wondered. I think it's one of the most asburd things about the whole lumbering dinosaur of an industry. But that doesn't stop it from being true, at least for now.

**This would be another of those absurd things. I kind of get it, in the sense that they're essentially giving the author a chance to start the next book without worrying too much, but for most authors it's not enough to quit the day job anyway so there's still other demands on their time.

I'm a business professor and went with a startup publisher for my management graphic novel. It was costly due to paying the illustrator (who worked on a number of movies) advances for his work. Since I wanted the book to be positioned as a graphic novel anyone could read (it's available on Amazon) as well as a textbook marketed through traditional education channels this made sense to me. I've been pleased with both the publisher and decision. My only bit of advice is to have a market in mind before making the decision either way.

Jeremy Short
Author of 'Atlas Black: Managin to Succeed'
http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Black-Managing-Jeremy-Short/dp/098236184X

Wow! There are so many varying opinions and experiences on here. Here's my story. I chose self-publishing on purpose - not as a last resort. I've been writing seriously since I was 17 years old (the last 14 years), only choosing this past March to self-publish. I've written 7 or 8 novels purely for practice. The most recent 2 that I wrote, were intended to eventually be published and sold. Because of that goal, those 2 were MUCH more heavily edited. I did about 6-9 heavy edits of each book myself and then had 3 separate editors each edit my books also. All that to say that I'm definitely not one of those writers who spends 10 years working on 1 novel and who is so attached to every sentence that they're not willing to change a thing. I believe in letting go of those "precious darling" sentences or phrases and realizing that your book will be much better for it.

In addition to my crazy editing practices, I also really identified with what Eva had to say in #134 :
(The excellent self published books are written be people who are not only good writers, but exemplary business people. They know how to source good copyeditors, editors, designers and printers. They work through several proofs before pbulishing. They have a marketing strategy. They have the charisma to talk bookshop owners into actually stocking their books. They do blog tours and viral ads and have facebook pages and twitter and myspace and they're active members here and at goodreads and they network. They know how to price a book, where to sell it from, how to make sure it's readable by as many people as possible.)

I do all of these things every day and they are currently paying off. My main novel (The Book) has only been "on the market" since March 18th, 2010. That's 7 weeks and 1 day ago and as of today, I've sold 101 copies. 60-ish in paperback via CreatSpace &/or Amazon and the rest in eBook formats via Smashwords and/or Amazon.

In addition to marketing and promoting myself through facebook, blogs, twitter, LT, Goodreads, etc. I've also been working on a massive marketing campaign via email. This venture has been extremely successful and can account for many of my sales. I've also been able to begin booking a fall, cross-country tour for myself. I already have over 50 stops scheduled and hope to secure another couple hundred before I'm done.

All of that to say that self-publishing, while strenuous, can be so rewarding when worked at as a business. But you have to be passionate about it first!! It has to be your life to make it successful enough to be your only source of income. That is my goal and it feels like I'm on my way.

Thank you to everyone here for all of your input and opinions. They are invaluable to someone in my position.

M. Clifford
author of The Book
http://www.librarything.com/work/9812591

This is a really old topic, looks like the last message is a couple of years old, but since Eggplant was mentioned I figured I'd post an update. Eggplant Literary Productions reopened in 2011 and will be releasing our first title in August of 2012.

Self publishing is the best road to travel. Not the easiest, but the one which gives you the better prospects for the future without getting in the way of getting publishing in parallel.

It enables you to build up a foundation, making it easier to be found by traditional publishers. When that happens, sit down with good legal advice to work out what you want the publisher to partake in and provide, for what market and in what form, and so forth.

Traditional publishing often seems easier. But we should not forget that traditional publishing is under growing pressure from distribution houses like Amazon. Let's be honest, it is places like Amazon which fully own the extent of the market, while traditional publishers neither have the reach nor the infrastructure nor the experience base for either as markets and methods have changed.

This on top of structural changes in buyer behaviour, and consumer research patterns (how people find their books). A few years ago people would go by the New York Times catalogue (for example). Now that is a niche group.

Most of the vested names in the traditional industry I have spoken with these past two years indicate they're really just riding it out. Retirement is on the horizon, and restructuring the entire established industry to compete with agents like Amazon (and others) costs more than it is worth. Not to mention that it is financially more interesting to synchronise interests with those parties, even if that on the surface means accepting terms. The common argument there is that under the surface that also presents cost reductions.

Just don't see self publishing as quicker or easier. It has a lower treshold to overcome, definately. But to reach targets the process has to be undertaken with the same amount of consideration as any other process. Don't see self publishing as something that has nothing to do with editing or branding. On the contrary. You are your brand. Your writing is part of your brand. Subtle but important distinction, and in self publishing you are the one building the brand. And only in part with your writing.

Ofcourse how far & deep an author goes in that is up to the author. There are quite a few relatively new small but agile publishing houses which focus their specialisation on the connection between a select few authors and prospect audiences for one or two general genres. This while going hand in hand with self publishing, since it makes no sense to reinvent the wheel for you or them in terms of presence of services like print to order and digital services like those of Amazon, smashwords, etc.

I'm giving it 10 years roughly, before the big traditional publishers have become a niche. A big niche, but still a niche. And under the umbrella of new business models like those of Amazon. To be blunt, Amazon has all the potential to turn the book industry into its own lock-in market à la Apple with its own market. The similarities in elements and evolution are too striking to be ignored by any smart entrepreneur.

Writers will probably have to find a balance between self publishing and supporting services in order to establish themselves as a brand and differentiating commercially between their own publishing, and the publishing efforts by selected partners for select purposes.

In many ways there are similarities to the changes in the music industry. Remember how someone could make a tune and cash in wonderfully with a hit, leaving him or her free to do his art without concern for income? Those days are over. A single for 10 euro you now download for less than a euro. Artists in that industry have to establish themselves as brand first with the music as part of an ongoing service, and a dedication towards the stage once again.

In our industry it is not going to be very different. And yes, piracy is going to go through the roof. But you can extremely easily make that work for you. It is after all up to you on how to connect audiences, how to reach out and let them reach back. And it is up to you how you combine your works commercially. Digging trenches and circling the wagons while signing up the MPAA is never a good idea for any market subject to common and simple changes. What matters is to adapt to changes, proactively.

In a nutshell, I'd advise to work out solid ways towards self publishing and establishing yourself as a brand. Work out what options you leave open for traditional publishing, and keep an eye open for niche publishers with adaptive business models. Traditional publishers, I am sorry, but unless you write the next bible (proverbially speaking) are going to be even less of an open market to authors than before - though I have no doubt they will expend a lot of marketing money making it look different over the next few years.

I only recommend Self-Publishing for Poets. And that's only because the major houses don't take on many poetry titles...

And even for the Poets who self-publish... I'd recommend being in the Spoken Word arena... even if you are literary. Just so you can get a market for your work... Or rather, an audience.

I think Fiction writers... should ALWAYS go the traditional route. It helps to have someone BESIDES YOURSELF reading your work.

As for non-fiction.... If you are writing a memoir.... GO THE TRADITIONAL ROUTE. However, if you are writing a Business Book.... you can self-publish. There are plenty of Business Books in the Business section of the book store that are published quite randomly.

I won't answer "go this way or that", but I will say that IF you decide you want to self-publish, you should spend the money (expect to pay in the neighborhood of $1000) to have the book professionally edited. Not just proofread or copy-edited, either, but content-edited by someone with expertise in the particular genre you hope to publish in. Once they've done that, you will have to rewrite your book. They won't fix it for you, they'll just tell you where and why it's weak. It's up to you to make the changes they suggest.

That is, of course, the advantage that traditional publishers still offer...they vet the editors for you so you don't have to find them, and they pay them so you don't have the out of pocket expense. BUT, that said, there's no real reason you can't find the right people and do the work yourself. You just have to be willing to put the money out up front.

The same thing is true of covers. Don't skimp, don't try to do it yourself. It always shows. Don't just put a photograph and some flat, obviously Photoshop-filtered print as a cover. Get a pro.

The more professionals who will look at your work, the more genre-expert hands it goes through, the more likely it is to be market-ready and successful. Whether you get that expertise by hiring it out as a self-published author or by going the traditional route and finding an agent and publisher, well, that's up to you.

I would tend to agree with Laura K, re: editing but it depends on genre. With novels it's essential that another pair of eyes goes over things, as you won't be distanced enough from your own work to notice continuity errors, plot holes, etc.

You can do a cover yourself, but only if you're gifted enough with Adobe tools AND have a really good eye. There are a lot of really cheap-looking covers out there. Caustic Cover Critic is a great blog about book cover design. http://causticcovercritic.blogspot.ca/

Over time, it's become less and less essential to have a traditional publisher. As e-books become the dominant market force, if you have your own way to market things online you should do fine. Besides, traditional publishers pawned off their marketing responsibilities on authors a long time ago.

The difference dollar-wise, between small imprints and making a decent go of it indie, isn't that great. Of course, everyone wants to land with one of the giants, but unless you've got a website with massive traffic, or you're a celeb or have a massive platform they're likely to pass.