what ever happened to full discolsure?

Ok- I am apparently up for the second book that is Christian Fiction. The synopsis on either (the one I received a few months ago and the one Im due to receive) were not listed as Christian fiction. I am NOT a fan of Christian fiction.

I would love it if when posting synopsis this little tidbit could be included as I would avoid requesting a book that I actually don't really want (but of coarse don't know it yet because I haven't gotten all the information).

It also boggles my mind that the algorithms would even pick me after all that, seeing as I have most Dawkins books and several other critical thinking/evolution science books in my catalog.

It's frustrating to get picked for a book only to find out that is has been misrepresented and personally undesired.

OK- rant over.

You might check the publisher on the info. They were probably released under a Christian imprint.

Well this one was actually a Members Giveaway (so no algorithm to rant about)- I have contacted the member in hopes of a resolution.

My rant is- I shouldn't have to review each publisher or look at it on Amazon before requesting a book---It should be readily available especially this type since it is one where individuals can be very divided about.

Some major Christian Publishers I've seen doing ER are Bethany House (Baker Publishing imprint) and the unrelated B & H Publishing (LifeWay Christian Resources imprint).

I'm sure a simple Google search for the publisher would suffice, and there you'd find the full disclosure that they are, in fact, a Christian publisher.

It also begs the questions why you requested it in the first place...

If it's an MG book, you are under no obligation to actually read/review the book. It will not penalize your chances at winning future ER or MG books.

Barbour is another Christian fiction publisher that I've seen here. I almost always click through to the publishers site before requesting any book. There's often a chapter of the book that you can read to get a feel for whether or not you will really enjoy it or not.

Also, under that reasoning, should all science books that take evolution for granted have to fully disclose that? Should all books on Zen Buddhism disclose that they are, in fact, about Zen Buddhism?

And while we're at it, should fantasy books say: "Warning, may contain dragons"?

Where do we draw the line!?

(,;;,)

(warning, may contain sarcasm)

Sarcasm noted----

but in all regards---This book was clearly portrayed as a supernatural thriller (yes of coarse I know that could mean elements of god in there)

However, when the entire premise is a listing not under thriller but Christian Fiction then it should have been represented as such. It was NOT. It was represented in such a way that looked like I would like it----had it been represented properly I would not have even requested it and hence wouldn't have started this thread.

Did the synopsis have to say "Christian Fiction"- of coarse not---but it should have been written in such a way that this fact could be assumed (without having to look up every publisher-- which I personally do not have the time to do- I make the mistake of trusting that the book is represented accurately).

A learning experience for me at least. (And hopefully this area of concern will be noted for those who are generous enough to put books up as giveaways).

I've seen enough of these threads to suspect that the publishers keep the Christian fiction angle quiet on purpose in the hopes of stealth proselytizing or something. Getting books to the unconverted in the hopes that one or two will have a dramatic impact. It's not an illogical way to expand their reader base either.

>9 kristenn:.

Covert Evangelism...

Cue the "Mission: Impossible (Except for God)" theme.

As a Christian, I do feel there is a sort of double standard here. We do not request that books come with a stamp along the lines of "Warning: Written by an Atheist." (Well, some might like that, but it really wouldn't effect me one way or the other. I do not belong to the brand that thinks Charles Dickens is off-limits because he was an adulterer—after all, King David was too.) Furthermore, the idea that it being "Christian fiction" supersedes its general marketability as a spiritual thriller doesn't make sense to me.

Then again, the Christian publishing industry has really done this to themselves by making proselytizing and preachiness their distinguishing characteristics. In general, I respect novelists of all religious persuasions most when they are writing in the mainstream and not catering to those who think like they do.

On a more general level, yes, it's extremely frustrating to receive a book and find out it's not what you expected. I requested The Elegance of the Hedgehog thinking it was a YA novel, for crying out loud! But that's my fault for not doing more outside research. We should take personal responsibility for the books we request.

Well, the biggest thing is on MG there are no standards and it is up to the requester to try to find out the info they need to make a decision.

I suppose I could relay this in a different light---If I am to get this book--then either I will read it and post a not-so flattering review or I'll just not bother to read and/or review it. Now what person requesting a review wants either scenario?

I'd also feel bad for accepting a book that I don't intend to do right by---let it go to a home that wants it. (Also- it means I wont get a book that is actually appropriate for me---which is downright disheartening)

I think when it comes down to it---a book should be marketed to its proper audience.

I'll definitely be a bit more wary on my next requests.

*sigh*

lesson learned.

I learned to google unfamiliar publishers after receiving a Bethany House ER offering that I had requested believing, from the synopsis, that I was requesting general or women's fiction. I think disclosure of the genre is reasonable. And many people don't care for Christian fiction as a genre. I gave a less-than-stellar review, and now I avoid requesting Bethany House and B&H titles.

I'm not sure if Christian fiction publishers are trying to sound mainstream to expand their audience. Though I'm not sure how much their audience can be expanded. I consider myself to be pretty open-minded, but I was put off by the preachiness in the book I read.

You're not the only one to learn this lesson the hard way!

I got burned with a Christian Regency romance, for goodness' sake! I should have checked the publisher, I guess. Nothing in the description would have led anybody to think it was Christian fiction. I only realized it was after reading and reviewing it then looking at other reviews (I do that only after writing my own). Imagine my surprise when I read that it was Christian fiction. If the hero and heroine in that book were Christian heroes and heroines, sign me up for atheism.

It was bad enough that it was "Christian fiction", but it was poorly written Christian fiction.

I checked the publishers before requesting from the next batch of books.

I just did a double check and the publisher is indeed B&H.

I, for one, was pleasantly surprised when I received one of the B&H offerings and found it Christian fiction. I had given up on that genre years ago when it was "all the same". If I had known right off, I may not have requested it, and would have missed out on a really good book! I enjoy trying things out of my comfort zone, though, so I may be one of the "abnormal" members :)

17>

Can I step back and ask that people think twice before patting themselves on the back about how amazingly well-rounded and open-minded and generally wonderful they are for requesting books that are "out of their comfort zone"? Many people have very good reasons for wanting to avoid particular types of literature, and it doesn't make them close-minded. I see this sort of claim all the time, and it annoys me every single time. Saying that you're happy you got a stealth Christian book, sure. Saying it's because you're a better person than the rest of us, really, what's the point?

13> If I am to get this book--then either I will read it and post a not-so flattering review or I'll just not bother to read and/or review it. Now what person requesting a review wants either scenario?

Again, since it's a Member Giveaway (as opposed to an ER), you can just post it back up there, or give it away in some other fashion. You are not required to either read or review it.

Ditto 19. I'm not sure what the fuss is about. I run into books (and posts) all the time that are offensive to me, that I have great reasons to avoid, but I'm not causing a to-do about it.

Can we try to keep this from becoming personal? Religion is a touchy topic for a lot of people and some of the comments here are definitely unkind and intolerant toward the beliefs of others.

(Edit) Full disclosure: Yes, I'm a Christian. No, I don't read or generally like what is termed Christian fiction.

# 20

I agree. We are all different, but we are all entitled to an opinion and to expect civility.

#20- I honestly didnt think it was an unreasonable request for additional information to assist me in making a more informed choice on what I want to request. Nor---even though i will probably have to do it in the future- I dont feel I should have to review each publisher for books I have an initial interest in....I feel books should be initially marketed to people who will best appreciate them.

Since Christian Fiction is a very specific genre- it should be listed if that is what the book is---just as I would expect a Sci-Fi book to be listed as such, a Romance book to be listed as such etc etc etc.

It is my opinion that I was misled and it felt dishonest for me to accept under those false pretenses (whether intentional or not).

18>

There was no back patting - just a record of experience that was mine. If my experience was offensive to you, I'm sorry. I had been away from reading adult fiction for so long, that just about everything was new and "out of my comfort zone". I'm certainly not better than anyone else here - just different and that's what makes life fun and exciting :)

#20 & #21 - I am a bit confused. I don't see anything offensive here, just statements of preference. To what exactly are you referring?

I was burned early in the program by a selection from B&H Books as well. I thought I was safe as the book was set in 227 B.C. and forgot to check the publisher details. I now check this info (dare I say it?) religiously. ;o)

I think it is valid to ask publishers to post the genre in their promo paragraph. "Christian fiction" is a genre, the same way that "urban fantasy" is a genre. Either one tells you what type of world view to expect.

# 25

I think that is reasonable, and I'm not sure why they don't.

25 and 26: I completely agree, whatever the genre may be. There are entirely too many books for me to take the time to go researching each publisher to determine what sort of books they usually peddle. I'm not actually getting paid to be an Early Reviewer, after all, and need to pay at least *some* attention to the job that does pay me!

I totally agree with #25-27. It's in the publisher's best interest to disclose the genre. That way, someone who is truly interested in the book will get it & review it. I must add that I am also a person who can't be bothered to research a publisher before requesting a book. I read the book descriptions but since I only win books ocassionally, my time is too valuable to research each publisher.

JGoto -- I could also actualy be reading a BOOK instead of reading about the publishers of the books, know what I mean? ;)

Maybe LT could add a line in the publisher's posting form template for genre.

I'm certainly glad I'm not the only one with this concern.

I am at this point I am also dismayed that the member from which I won (I use member loosely as they are the publisher representative) has not returned my comment of having the book given to someone else...I guess I will be going to route of putting it up in the giveaway myself----with FULL disclosure.

#30--- Great idea!!

#4 -- re begging the question of why Spieca requested the book in the first place, that's precisely the point. It was requested precisely because the information wasn't readily available. I don't believe any of us should have to go hunting for what many would consider important information. I could flip this around and say, perhaps an evangelical Christian reader avoided the same booking in the belief that it wasn't something that fit her reading standards.

I recently got burned in the same way with an Amazon Vine book, where there is a review requirement, with Five Cities that Ruled the World. It was presented to me as a history book, one "Profiling their leaders, exploring their philosophies, following their armies into war, riding their merchant ships to ports of commerce, and watching as one eclipses the others". What it was, was a book based as much or more on New Testament quotes as on historical research. There were even outright errors, because the theological message of the book (that God prefers free markets and democracy) was more important than historical accuracy to the author.

Mostly, Vine does a good job of pointing out the genre of a book -- Christian fiction, etc. (A friend of mine in the publishing biz notes that yes, many publishers hope these books will bring more people to God, and really want them to end up in the hands of people who wouldn't normally be readers of religious-themed fiction, because that might convert them.) It would be great if LTER and other giveaways did the same thing; I know a couple of times I've been "saved" from making a choice I would have regretted. It's not reasonable to expect us to do vast amounts of due diligence just *in case* a book might be something that it doesn't appear to be. I don't imagine a devoutly evangelical reader would be thrilled at getting an atheistic rant when they'd expected a plain novel, either. There are also probably enough people of strong but different religious faiths on LT that wouldn't enjoy this kind of stealth marketing.

A comparison of sorts is the British series of books for readers who have struggled to learn to read. There are a lot of them, by very popular readers like Maeve Binchy. It would be very easy to think "Oh, a new title!" and buy it without realizing that an "Open Door" title means it will be much shorter and with a very limited vocabulary. Great for the small segment of the audience for whom it's intended (a wonderful idea); not so great for the person who's just bought a book that they didn't realize was part of this kind of series.

Good luck finding a new home for this, Spiceca...

I had a similar experience with a free Kindle book on Amazon. I had no idea it was a book mostly about Christian faith. It always makes me wonder about the people behind the book. Do they feel the need to trick people into reading their books? It was irritating. Thankfully I could just erase it.

Disclaimer: I am not bothered, as a rule, with books that are contrary to my personal beliefs. This is intended as a switcharound examination of the argument at hand.

What can be done about books that are contrary to the Christian ethic? I saw nothing in the book description that said it was agnostic or atheistic in nature, but when I received the book, it very clearly was not Christian in nature. Now, some may say that since it was published by The Humanist Magazine I should have realized it's non-religious nature. My time is much too precious to waste researching publishers and magazines. Every book that is non-Christian, un-Christian or anti-Christian in content should be clearly labeled.

What do you think? Are the arguments parallel? I think so.

34- I think the whole idea that I am bothered by the book isn't what the point really is about---I am not. My point was I had no interest in reading it once I read the "full" synopsis provided afterward on the books page.

The point I was trying to make---was that I felt "duped" into requesting a book that I will unfortunately simply turn around and put back up in the giveaway program. This entire extra step to find a proper home for the book would have been avoided if its genre was correctly identified in the first place.

As far as your scenario- you did not provide enough information (ie-- fiction, nonfiction, biographical etc) for it to be an equivalent analogy. Not to mention a non-religious book does not equate the same as an "atheist" book. Nonreligious simply means it does not adhere to a specific religion or no religion- where as an atheistic toned book would have a focus on the atheistic view. Two very very different books imo. (Also- what exactly is your definition of "contrary to Christian ethic"?- that is a very vague description since many Christian sects are very diverse in their standards)

Now- your analogy might be better if say it was an evolutionary biology book that only said it was science related- I think it would only be fair if it is accurately described as well as "evolutionary biology". I would consider that "fair" warning for someone not interested in reading about evolution.

And to make things fair- I would still have the same opinion if an evolutionary biology book was not correctly labeled or identified.

It doesn't really matter what genre is being discussed- publishers should correctly label their books to the appropriate target audience- and that is the whole point. (Mine just happened to be Christian Fiction hence the topic)

"We do not request that books come with a stamp along the lines of "Warning: Written by an Atheist."

It's not about the author its about the book. Reading books by Christians is one thing -- reading books by Christians meant for Christians espousing Christian theology is another. I mean, Stephenie Meyer shouldn't have to announce she is Mormon, because her books are aimed at a broader audience with no intention to preach. If her books were actually about vampires who specifically practiced Mormonism and she intentionally wrote that into the book and they were published under a Mormon press it would be a different matter. Generally I think the intent is what matters. Non-Christians don't have to proclaim their book is non-Christian because their intent isn't to disguise that fact, but rather that fact is simply irrelevant to them. The religosity isn't an afterthought to these Christian lit. books (I'm inferring this based on the fact they are intentionally being published under a religious rather than mainstream press) so it should be mentioned.

I'd feel the same way about a book of another religion if the situation were to come up that that were hidden. But the thing is most people pushing a religious message don't seem to try to hide that from the book description, except for Christian lit:

Compare the ER description of Heartless (latest offering by Bethany House) to any of the ER books published by Gefen House. (Not a great/foolproof/fully analogous example but the best I could do at 1am from the ER lists)...

*This post isn't against Christianity, but against Christian lit. publishing practices. I think there is a difference.* I would be equally annoyed if Jewish or atheist presses were doing the same thing, but I just haven't seen any evidence of it...? I challenge people to come up with examples where atheism was explicitly written in and hidden.

34 -
Were "Atheist Fiction" a publishing genre, I would see your point. Currently, however, in the publishing world, there isn't a tag that would give you a quick reference that could help you in determining which books fit and do not fit your argument -- which is why it isn't a parallel one.

I think this problem gets caught up in the fact that one of the genres that publishers can use to tag a book is of a religious nature, whereas most other ones are not. (Even within the label "Christian Fiction" there might be Mormon stories, Catholic stories, or any number of other denominations of 'Christian' etc. that you may or may not want to read, but that all get tagged with the single genre!) It is only a label, however, meant to inform a potential reader as to the nature of the book -- nothing more. If there are people that don't like a particular genre in general, having that information available helps inform them.

I certainly do not like everything written in the Sci Fi genre, (or even most of it), but if a book states that it is Sci Fi -- I do not open the book up and expect to read Danielle Steele's latest romance.

In fact, if I read the description of a book that *sounded* like it was science fiction, but was actually written to be one big romance by Danielle Steele's long-lost love-child, I would be one unhappy person - which is why I check a genre before getting a book. If I'm not told what the genre is -- I don't get the book.

I like surprises, except when it comes to what the genre is of the book I'm reading.

I think asking for the genre of a book to be displayed is in the best interests of matching a book to a reader with a happy ending. All genres for books should be disclosed, whether it's Christian Fiction, Atheist Fiction (if it were a genre), or Nutso Insane Smurfs Control My Left Eye Fiction (were it also a genre) -- all of them should be disclosed to the potential reader.

Perhaps if enough Atheist Fiction were written, it would get its own genre and then you could avoid it if you so chose... but that takes a fair amount of moving the glaciers of the publishing industry, so it probably won't happen anytime soon.

>36 Kira: You put it very well! Books written by Christians are not the same thing as Christian fiction, which is trying to preach a religion, a complete turn-off to many people.

# 34

I think you make a valid point. It was simply a reversal of the same logic and arguments presented in many of the posts. It certainly made me go back and read many over again.

Few like to be preached to, but as started above, Christian fiction is not all preaching, and a book from a Christian publisher doesn't mean it is preaching.

I have to admit that I probably wouldn't want to read a preachy book, but these day I seldom read anything but fantasy/SciFi. These are easy to pick out.

Having said that, I believe indicating the genre on the listing IS a good idea and would resolve the problem.

There are two ways of getting freebies: either you do some research about the book you are requesting (in really isn't the end of the world to have to spend thirty seconds on Amazon) and only request books you are sure you want or you take whatever you're given graciously and make the most of it. If the book in question turns out to be a load of sanctmonious claptrap, that's what reviews are for and you should say so. On the other hand, to decide you are going to give it a bad review (#13) before you have even read it is just silly. Who knows? You might even find you enjoy something you would never normally have picked up? Admittedly, it's more likely you'll hurl it across the room in frustration halfway through but that's the kind of information the people reading your reviews would love to have.

I think the issue here is that the good people of LT who work so hard to get us free books are posting all the info the publisher gives them. You can't blame LT staff (I'm not implying anyone has, by the way) but you can blame the sneaky publisher.

However, if the book is a Member Giveaway, then there really is NO EXCUSE for the book not to be accurately labeled. I am under the impression that members enter the info about each book themselves. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (I know someone will!)

I agree with full disclosure. But as some people don't even read the full disclosures regarding how Member Giveaways works (as evidenced by their posts here), one wonders how effective genre disclosure will be for those individuals. Publishers and LT can give us all the information imaginable about a book, but we have to take the responsibility to actually read it.

And how different is that, really, than "spending thirty seconds on Amazon" looking up a book you aren't sure of? Honestly? I'm not arguing against "full disclosure" here on LT, but I guess I'm not understanding why it's a burden of epic proportions for readers to — well — read a little!

34, 39, and 40: Ditto! You're making excellent points.

#34 - MerryMary, you know I love you to bits, and I appreciate that you're trying to make a point, but I can't buy your argument. I can only speak for myself, but I tend to work under the assumption that books given away are ALL non-religious, unless otherwise specified by the title or the publisher info. This is, as far as I am aware, a public (and secular) book site.

Also, I have to note that I have yet to see one single covert non-theist book ever foisted onto the reading public under the guise of a religious book. We don't work that way. ;o)

His Dark Marterials is an extremely preachy story pushing the atheistic viewpoint, but it's marketed to (foisted on?) young readers as benign fantasy.

I never seen or heard of it being marketed as 'benign.' That trilogy is named 'Dark' for a reason. Plus, it's a Young Adult series, not a children's book at all. But your point is taken.

I guess anyone picking up any book risks an unpleasant (or pleasant) surprise.

Of course, to most of us, benign fantasy is exactly what it is but clamairy did say " foisted onto the reading public under the guise of a religious book"

^ To expand on the implications of post 44, it isn't true that all publishers of atheistic materials are above-board and open about their books when they are marketing them to the public. I can quote the back-cover blurb of my copy of His Dark Materials if you don't believe me! Claiming that they are, in comparison to the alleged deception of ALL publishers of Christian books, seems a little self-righteous.

Every commercial publisher of every conceivable kind of book wants its publications to reach as wide an audience as possible. Therefore its marketing efforts will be directed toward that goal. If it means being vague about the ideological bases of certain fictional works, they don't care. This is a realistic business practice.

It's being argued in this thread that Christian publishers are the only ones "guilty" of this tactic because they want to convert people. Let's be realistic... they want to sell books, just the same as any other publisher publishing any kind of work. Individuals within the industry may be trying to proselytize, sure. But how is that different from any other genre publishing industry?

That's why, while "full disclosure" is great and I agree it would be a big help, it probably isn't going to happen. But we readers aren't defenseless against the marketing onslaughts of these behemoth publishers. We can click. We can do thirty seconds of research and reading. We can even learn the vague words in the descriptions that hint at the ideological elements we're trying to avoid. There is nothing wrong with taking a little responsibility for our own reading. And I think this is something most readers, regardless of their personal worldviews, can agree on.

45, 46: Okay, let me replace "benign" with "generic" — "generic" meaning it is not an ideological sermon (of whatever persuasion) couched in fiction.

Plus, it's a Young Adult series, not a children's book at all.

You're getting semantic. If you look at my post, I said "young readers," not "children." I had "young adult" in mind.

My point is that His Dark Materials is "foisted" (clamairy's word) on the reading public as just a good fantasy story, when in reality it's very intentionally an atheistic sermon. Research Pullman a bit.

And the title "His Dark Materials" is actually taken from John Milton's Paradise Lost. "Dark" doesn't have to mean "atheistic."

#47 - "It's being argued in this thread that Christian publishers are the only ones "guilty" of this tactic because they want to convert people."

I don't think anyone made that broad a statement in this thread. I think people are talking specifically about LT's ER program, and, as far as I know, the only issues about disclosure here has been with books not labeled or not clearly marked Christian Fiction. We're not discussing the entire publishing industry.

Also, I have taken full responsibility for the one book I requested a couple of years ago that turned out NOT to be what I thought it was. It sounds to me like the OP does as well. Hopefully this thread has alerted those who were unaware of this issue to look more closely, and reminded those of us who may have grown complacent to keep our eyes open.

I think that publishers of Christian fiction may assume they have wider name recognition than they really do, rather than that they're trying to trick potential readers. The book descriptions appear to be the same ones used in their own publishers catalogs and in advertisements in Christian publications and bookstores. I'm not sure it's hit them yet that the way they're used to describing their products for traditional media outlets, where they have enjoyed strong brand recognition, may not be suited for marketing via social media.

49: We're not discussing the entire publishing industry.

Actually I think we are; in post 43 you brought up the practices of publishers of atheistic books.

#48 - You should consider taking your issues over to the Pro & Con (Religion) group.

52: Will you answer me there? :P

Anyhow, I think I've said my say for now. Carry on :)

>50 cbl_tn:

That's an excellent point. They're copying/pasting their standard marketing material that's originally written for their base audience. Laziness rather than deception.

>50 cbl_tn:
I think that might just be the problem here. Those who write the descriptions for ER books are, after all, only human and therefore just as prone as the rest of us to just this sort of oversight. Asking for a genre in addition to -- I repeat, in addition to -- a blurb will probably go a long way towards preventing this sort of misunderstanding.

#53 - No, I gave up on that group a long time ago, but I think you'd fit right in. I made the statement because you appear to want to engage in a much more prolonged argument, which doesn't really belong in this group.

The OP was merely asking for Christian genre labels on ER books, and several people appear to have taken that as an insult. I'm still rather unclear why they did so, but I have neither the extra time or the inclination to parse words with you or anyone else over this.

53: you appear to want to engage in a much more prolonged argument, which doesn't really belong in this group.

No, I just wanted to demonstrate how your generalization in post 43 is false. If it takes a few posts back and forth to determine that, and that kind of discussion is not allowed in this group, I apologize!

53: The OP was merely asking for Christian genre labels on ER books, and several people appear to have taken that as an insult.

No, you greatly oversimplify. What is insulting is the claim that only publishers of Christian materials are engaging in vague marketing to reach a wider audience. This claim is demonstrably false, and that is all I am trying to show.

Actually, I don't really enjoy these kinds of debates. I'm not even sure why I get myself into them... just have to give my two cents, I guess.

I agree with #50. The publishers are using the same descriptions that they use elsewhere. I don't think they are trying to be sneaky. Their books are in many public libraries. In some libraries, they are in a separate Christian fiction section, but in some that don't really group their fiction by genre, they actually sit side by side on the shelf with "secular" fiction. I don't think that the publishers realize that they are not as well known as they think they are.

I'm a Christian. I have a lot of older Christian fiction titles in my LibraryThing catalog. I don't have very many recent ones there. Why? Because I got tired of the poor quality of much of the writing. That's not saying that all the writers were bad, but a lot of them are. In the early 1970s much of Christian fiction was nothing but a fictionalized account of a Biblical character. There were exceptions to this. Eugenia Price was an author who was appreciated not only by many Christians, but also by a wider audience. Her writings were not "preachy" as are many of the ones today. I really think that when Janette Oke came onto the scene is when we began to see a move toward Christian books feeling the need to include the plan of salvation somewhere in the narrative. I've never quite understood that approach since about 95-99% of the readers of those books were Christians and should have already known how they were saved. It does get tiring when you pick up book after book and you feel that you get to a couple of pages that read like every other book in the world.

My favorite Christian fiction titles are those that don't use that formula and that don't get preachy. There are a few out there. I remember the first time I encountered one. I'd read the book. The character struggled with some issues and really got mad at God (and everyone else). She eventually came to realize that she was learning from her struggles. When I got to the end of the book, I had to turn back to the front of the book and make sure it was a Christian imprint and not just a "nice clean story" from a secular publisher. There was no preachiness in the book at all. I really wish that more Christian fiction emulated that pattern. (We probably wouldn't be having this discussion if that were the case.)

I read things that differ from my own philosophical position many times. I often make note of that in my own review because that was my own take on the book. It's an impression that I had, coming from my personally held beliefs. (I usually preface such a statement, if it has to do with my religious beliefs, with the phrase "as a Christian.") I don't see anything wrong with a review for a Christian book stating that you found the preachiness offensive. You can also make it clear that you are not a Christian if that is the case. When you come down to it, most reviews are influenced by our own "takes" on a book. Those "takes" are influenced by our personal beliefs.

#57 - What is insulting is the claim that only publishers of Christian materials are engaging in vague marketing to reach a wider audience.

Well why didn't you say that when I asked why you were offended way back in post #24?

Because I was sitting on my hands trying not to get into the very debate I just did :)

#60 - Can you understand why people might reach that conclusion, though? It might be easy for folks to get publishers like B&H Books mixed up with less savory types. Personally, I've had a free book supposedly about about 'breast cancer cures' handed to me in public that turned out to be religious material. It tends to make one cautious and suspicious.

Yes, I can understand why. That's why I got myself into this discussion after all, to demonstrate that that conclusion isn't true. I think the practice of intentionally vague marketing is wrong, no matter who does it, Christian publisher or secular.

(On a total tangent, I'd be annoyed with the Christian material handed to me under false pretenses too! I've argued in several contexts against the religious tracts made to look like dollar bills... that's just deceptive, and creates a terrible image — as many here have demonstrated!)

Also, I think the points made above, about publishers just reusing back-cover promotional blurbs for social media exposure, are probably very true. I really doubt that *any* publisher is intentionally trying to deceive or offend people.

Just want to point out that an added benefit of genre-labeling would be that those that *do* enjoy Christian fiction would have a much better chance at winning those books if those that do not enjoy the genre don't request them.

On the flip side though, to what degree is faith or allegory acceptable without having the book classified as "Christian fiction"? I have Lord of the Rings, The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, and Little Women all tagged as "Christian" in my library - seeing as these are all classics and generally accepted as excellent writing, how much faith/allegory must the book include to be exclusively labeled as "Christian"?

I don't know that a line can really be happily drawn so perhaps that is why publishers want to avoid the genre classification and let readers make that decision.

I do agree with the OP that it would be beneficial, both to members and publishers alike, if there were some type of tagging system for ER Books.

I received a book that I requested that I thought from the description would be very interesting and was thrilled when I received it. I'll admit my ignorance as to the publisher, I would never have thought to check them out. It was Bethany House and when I read the back cover and accompanying note I was shocked to see it was Christian Fiction and immediately I checked to see if I had missed something in the listing because I would not have requested it had I known. Not knocking any type of lit, but certain genre's I'm not interested in.

I went ahead and read the book and noted that in my review it was Christian Fiction and reader beware because it was to evangelical for my tastes. I also let the publisher know that I felt I had not been advised truthfully and that had they left the story on it's own and the preaching out it would have made a much better book.

Now I look closely at the publishers. And yes, I did request and receive another ER from Bethany House, and again it wasn't specified as Christian Fiction either, but at this point I knew what I was dealing with. In this case I knew going in I was taking a chance. And I'm glad I did, it was a great book and I pointed that out in my review and letter to the publisher as well.

In both cases I believe there were opportunities missed by the publisher to reach a better market, but in the end be it Christian, Atheist, on Mainsteam Monkey--they all publish some real winners and they all publish some real losers.

I too would find it helpful if publishers could include a few tags. Would it be difficult for the admins to provide a list of common-used tags (e.g. "sci-fi", "mystery", "Christian", "young adult") that the publisher can simply check off for each book, if relevant?

#65 -- I agree: a "check all that apply" option for genre might be useful, especially when dealing with a genre/category such as Christian Fiction, where there might be Christian romance, Christian historical fiction, Christian mystery/suspense, etc.

#58 -- Well said. So well said, in fact, that I don't have to write out my own examination of that genre, so thanks! ;-)

I requested what sounds like the same book, for what sounds like the same reasons, as the OP. I also don't want it, for the same reasons. I sent a very polite comment to the member giving it away, explaining that I would really rather it went to someone who was interested and who could give it a review that would be useful to its target audience, of which I'm not a part. I hope I'll hear back.

Frankly, I really did not realize that I needed to research the publishing imprint for each book that looked interesting. It's not like I'm requesting stuff based on the cover art or the author having a cool first name; I read the descriptions, and I thought the descriptions would reflect the contents. Most do, without the need for explicit genre tags. This one didn't, and this appears to be a recurring problem and specific to Christian lit.

@63 I don't classify books as "Christian fiction" based on the level of faith and allegory and I'm happy to read good books in which these are extensive. But I don't want to read books that classify themselves as Christian fiction. I tend to think that if a book had strong literary merit independent of its Christian themes it would be published by a mainstream/secular house for a wide audience. It's the same reason I don't tend to read self-published fiction. Am I going to miss good books this way? Of course, but there are enough good books in the world to keep me busy for several lifetimes, and I don't need to waste this one picking through stuff I already know I generally don't like.

#58-At my library I don't have a separate section for Christian Fiction but I do put a little cross sticker on the spine for Full Disclosure.
It's actually a very popular genre at my library and I agree with others that if there was a genre/category then the ones that like christian fiction would have a better chance to find a book they would enjoy.
I think a genre option for ER's would be great because there are times when you're not sure if it's adult or young adult just romance or para-romance Christian historical fiction or just historical fiction etc...

> 36

Hahahahaha! Mormon vampires... now *that* is a book I would request! There must be a niche audience for those.

Well, I was just wondering.

"Christian" ideas do seem to get vilified a lot. The overall tone just sort of sounded like "OMG! Christian fiction! How horrible! Get it away before I am defiled!" {/tongue in cheek>

When I find a book that preaches a belief (or non-belief) contrary to my tenets, I don't automatically assume that it is a conspiracy to make me change my ways. And, oddly enough, I usually read it.

However, I will say that genre labels in general are a pretty good idea. For people who want to keep their focus tight, it helps a lot.

As an aside, maybe I forget not everybody orders books as widely as I do. I've known Bethany House is a Christian house for a very long time.

As an aside, maybe I forget not everybody orders books as widely as I do. I've known Bethany House is a Christian house for a very long time.

Congratulations?

Is there really nothing that just doesn't interest you? It's unacceptable to have reading preferences? I don't read Harlequin romances, either. It's just that those are generally pretty hard to request by accident. If I had somehow requested a Harlequin romance under the impression that it was a horror novel, I'd probably have had exactly the same reaction (viz. 1. contact Sonya and find out if they can just pick a new winner (no), then 2. contact the member and politely explain why I misunderstood what the book was and hope they will relist it with a clearer description).

I don't know or care if it's a conspiracy to make me change my ways. I just don't want to read it. I have too much stuff I want to read (check out my wishlist--it recently topped 700) to waste time on stuff that I am specifically uninterested in. I don't really understand why this would offend someone. I'd also think that people who actually are fans of this genre might appreciate if books they might enjoy were not going (intentionally or not) to people like me who do not want them.

Not offended, exactly. Just curious that the dislike for Christian fiction seemed so heated. (And I actually did state that I think genre labels in general are a good idea.)

Yeah, there are genres I don't like and try to avoid. (horror, specifically) But, here again, I don't get angry when I accidently start reading one. If it's well enough written, I'll keep going. If it isn't, it's gone. And if I know ahead of time, I don't pick it up in the first place.

I'm not really that different from many of you - I just don't understand the implied (or seemingly implied) hatred of a religious genre. But I'll hum a few verses of "To Each His Own" with perfect amiability (if not perfect pitch).

My btw comment about Bethany House was intended to be a mea culpa for disrespecting people who don't want to check out publishers. I meant that - because I was a librarian for so long, and because I order books from all over - identifying publishing houses by their specialties is automatic, and I tend to forget that not everybody has that background. However, I seem to have offended you all over again. I swear it wasn't meant to offend.

*Sigh* I didn't mean to offend with #34 either. I just thought we could all cool down if we saw how the argument looked from the other side.

*fail*

And if I know ahead of time, I don't pick it up in the first place.

Well, right. There you go. I don't want to pick it up. If it had been posted with a description that made it clear what it was, I wouldn't have, and someone who might actually enjoy it would have. That's all. The book hasn't even been released yet, so the member (whom I have contacted) hopefully can re-list it with a better description and let it find its way to someone who actually wants it. I would do the same with any work of genre fiction that I had somehow not realized was genre fiction that didn't interest me. I don't dislike Christian fiction any more than I dislike genre romance or science fiction. It just none of it interests me--and what does interest me keeps me entirely busy enough.

I also want to be clear that I'm not ascribing the confusing description to conspiracy. I kind of prefer not to think that it's malicious stealth-proselytizing, and tend to think it's perhaps more likely that people close to the evangelical culture can sometimes not realize that not everyone speaks their language or picks up their buzzwords.

Also, re #34: I wasn't actually in this thread at that point, I'm not the OP. There are two of us who got the same wrong impression of the same book (which makes me, at least, feel a little bit vindicated in my misunderstanding).

This really isn't anything I want to take up arms about either. I just want to get books I want to read. I was really excited to finally win something, and really disappointed to realize it was something I wasn't interested in at all.

Quote: *sigh*...*fail*

I can empathize :) I hate feeling faily and I hate not being able to make myself understood. So I am sorry for taking you wrong.

#72 To be honest Its not that I have a heated dislike for Christian Fiction (OK- well maybe a small degree of dislike but not reading them cures that)- I've Accidentally read em before and they just aren't my cup o tea. Then again neither are romance novels- I would be equally annoyed if something was not labeled as a romance novel and I ended up requesting it based on an incomplete synopsis. Its really more of the principle of neglecting a very pertinent piece of information about a book - the genre.

The situation in this particular incident just happened to be Christian Fiction and according to several posters and LT (via frequent reports) it appears to be a recurring issue. I would hope seeing as it frustrates many members that the publishers would take notice and make a very small but much needed adjustments to how they post books up for review.

Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield. ‹(^¿^)›

Just to sidetrack the debate a bit...a similar thread happened a bit back when ER started including e-books and people selected them without realizing they were e-books. Now they are more clearly marked and I have not been aware of any further problems.

I think that is all the OP was asking for...or even hoping for...just a way to make sure that ALL books are going to the best matched readers.

I don't mean to put words in the OP's mouth, it just seems pretty much common sense to me that knowing more about the book will insure that it is requested by someone who will appreciate it.

>76 CarolO:
Even if that isn't what the OP meant -- and I'm pretty sure it was -- it would still be worth doing.

#76 & 77 - That is exactly what I meant!

>78 Spiceca:
Good to know we're bringing the thread back to its subject. :)

I'd love to see genre labels on the offerings... just because!

>79 AnnaClaire: I too waited until the heat died down on this thread to answer.

We don't currently have a specific place for publishers to define genres, nor are we going to in the short-term future (it's not on the list of ER fixes). I have mentioned to a few ER publishers, where I've seen multiple complaints about their books, that giving more genre information would be helpful.

What about the tags that would start to show on the book's LibraryThing page? Granted, most of these books are so new, not many other members are going to have them. If you're adding it to your catalog anyway (for wishlist, to-read purposes), throw a couple helpful tags in there, for your fellow Early Reviewers. On the ER page, if you click the title of the book, you'll be taken to the LibraryThing page, where you can see if anyone added tags. It's just one click, as opposed to googling the book, or poking around the publisher site.

My first impulse was to say just stop requesting books. It's sort of like another message board I frequent. People were actually griping about Christmas gifts they received. Go figure. Le sigh. To each his own. Or something.

#82 - The whole point of the ER program is to match books with readers who will, hopefully, enjoy them and who will then spread the word both in RL and online about how good the book is. It serves no purpose for either the readers or the nice publishers who donate these books if they then end up in the hands of people who will not enjoy them. No need to try to make the OP feel badly about what was an honestly made but 'mismatched' request.

I wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad. I was simply expressing my puzzlement and my opinion, as we are allowed to do.

Case in point: I recently received an ER book which was not quite what I expected and not to my liking. I posted a review expressing my honest opinion, stating that I had expected something else. At the end of the review I said something like 'to be fair, males or a younger female may enjoy the book much more.'

I didn't gripe about receiving the book and had better luck the next time. As I stated, 'to each his own.'

#85 - Gotchya. I thought you were chastising people for requesting clearer descriptions.

I do think listing genre (such as young adult, christian fiction, etc) might be useful. If a book ends up with a reader who hates young adult fiction but though it was an adult book, or hates Christian fiction and didn't realize it was a religious book, and they hate the book as a result, I don't think the reviews will be as useful for readers who ARE interested in that genre and trying to decide if the want to read the book, as they would be if they were sent to reviewers interested in that genre. Plus if I really had wanted to review a particular ER book I'd be sad to see the review page full of 1 star reviews because the reviewers had misunderstood what genre the book was in.

I guess my reaction to this is a certain amount of confusion, in that most publishers of genre fiction are only too happy to identify the genre to help those specifically interested in it find the book. The cover art also frequently reinforces this--if you see the dead body in a pool of blood or the "glowy magic" and dragons, you have a pretty good clue. But I'm assuming the Christian fiction in question doesn't have crucifixes or halos on the cover as a clue?

I dunno: I stopped requesting ER books when I got a couple I really disliked, though I understand that many people love the program. The books I didn't like were the genre they appeared to be--just not very good examples of same.

#81 Yes, that is what I do and sometimes even go on to the author page if they have other books.

So, I don't know the technical term but is there some way to pull into the work tags automatically for ER books the terms/headings/whatever they are called that usually show up around the ISBN number on the inside page with all the publisher info that I think are used in the library tracking system...darn, I wish I knew the right word for them so I could be more specific. I don't know if it would resolve this but it would at least give a little more info.

Sorry, I don't mean to ask you to do more work but if it could be automated?

I know it's not in the works right now, but if genre does get considered would it be possible to pick multiple genres? Sometimes a book does fit into multiple genres.

CarolO: You're thinking - I think - of the Cataloging-In-Publication info. Title, author, ISBN, subject headings, LOC number, sometimes a couple of sentences of plot.

#88: I ran across these books in ER a couple times, and didn't realize they were Christian fiction until I clicked through to the publisher page. If Bethany House is exclusively Christian fiction, then Heartless is likely to annoy some of its readers:

From ER: "Description: Princess Una of Parumvir has come of age and will soon be married. She dreams of a handsome and charming prince, but when the first suitor arrives, she finds him stodgy and boring. Prince Aethelbald from the mysterious land of Farthestshore has traveled far to prove his love—and also to bring hushed warnings of danger. A dragon is rumored to be approaching Parumvir.

Una, smitten instead with a more dashing prince, refuses Aethelbald's offer—and ignores his warnings. Soon the Dragon King himself is in Parumvir, and Una, in giving her heart away unwisely, finds herself in grave danger. Only those courageous enough to risk everything have a hope of fighting off this advancing evil."

The appearance of the Christian Church may be a little off-putting, but using it as divine truth and having a bunch of strawman non-Christian characters around to act as villains, fools, and converts is really what people get annoyed about and is a lot of what they're worried about. And that description above gives no hint that it's Christian fiction.

I will be receiving Heartless and will be sure to report if it's "using it {the Christian Church?} as divine truth and having a bunch of strawman non-Christian characters around to act as villains, fools, and converts is really what people get annoyed about and is a lot of what they're worried about".

But until these accusations are proven to have some basis in reality, they shouldn't be slung around.

>92 prosfilaes:: Yeah, I got burnt with another Bethany House book just this past year. I had never heard of Bethany before and I had no idea the book was Christian lit when I requested it, and the ARC backblurb didn't specify that either. I was halfway through the book before the sermons started to appear (and I mean that literally; the character went to sermons. And then afterward pondered over them and related them to the plot situation).

I know there's a market for that sort of book and, well, yay for that market, but that market is profoundly not me. The Christian content strongly decreased my enjoyment of the book, and that was reflected in my overall review.

I think the only other Christian lit book I read the whole way through... and this was a random library find of several years ago... had the same sort of benign backblurb and I had been similarly taken aback when the preachy bits started.

I also received an ER book from Bethany House and now know not to request books by that publisher. I'd never heard of it before, either, Myriadbooks.

My review is the second from the bottom, here:
http://www.librarything.com/work/8446588/reviews/48040793

I'm not griping, just stating a fact. The book would have been good for someone else, just not me. Reading it did help pass some time.

Yeah I really wanted to read Heartless (and was aware of the publisher) so I'll be a bit sad if it's mostly negative reviews for it by people who didn't know about the publisher... but I got picked for a different book I wanted slightly more anyway, so it's not like I could have gotten both of them, I guess.

I won Powers: a novel a few months ago, and had requested it not knowing it was Christian fiction. I look at it this way: it's set in a universe where the rules created by the author are true. God is all-powerful, evil can be felt as a physical force by the chosen few, etc. I can suspend my disbelief in the same way as when I read Lord of the Rings, or Harry Potter, where I choose to believe that another kind of magic is possible in order to enjoy the story.

I'll just add that, although the focus here has been on Christian books not identified as such, I'd feel the same way if, for example, I thought I was requesting a cozy mystery and instead got a book with elements of graphic horror. There are plenty of perfectly lovely ways for authors and publishers to surprise me without ambushing me into reading something I'd really rather not.

Seeing as how most libraries (at least the ones I've been to) don't have a separate section for Christian fiction, I wonder if the publishers are honestly curious about reviews from readers that pick up the book and judge it only from the cover and reading the back cover blurb.

Total speculation here, but maybe "Will people that don't normally read this genre enjoy this book?" is a valid question that we are answering for publishers. If a person writes a review saying "this came across as way too preachy" or "the religious symbolism was over-obvious and distracted from the plot", perhaps that's as helpful to publishers as a positive review from someone who reads the genre regularly.

@98 and 99: Very good points!

I've seen public libraries denote Christian fiction by putting a sticker with a special icon on the spine; a cross icon, if I remember correctly. And then mystery, romance, fantasy, and scifi would have a skull, heart, unicorn, and rocket ship, respectively. But I'm not sure how widespread this practice is.

When I worked as a shelver in our public library, there was a separate section titled "Inspirational Fiction" and it was mostly the Christian stuff. However, this was in Amish country and that particular genre is hugely popular with Amish women. So it might just have been a practice tailored to our specific demographic.

98 & 99: great points!

I put a little cross sticker on my Christian fiction at my library.I've been there 3 years and before that there was no way to tell them from regular fiction.

#99- I'd agree with you except for the fact that the synopsis posted, in my instance, had substantial omissions than the one posted on Amazon.

On Members giveaway:
"Description: On a rainy day in Seattle, software tycoon Micah Taylor receives a 25 year old letter from a great uncle he never knew. It claims a home awaits him on the Oregon coast. Suspecting a prank, Micah arrives at Cannon Beach and discovers a 9,000 square foot home that appears to have been built just for him. When bizarre things start happening and new rooms keep appearing, Micah slowly discovers that the home is a physical manifestation of his soul and that God and evil forces are fighting over Micah and his true destiny."

On Amazon:
"On a rainy spring day in Seattle, young software tycoon Micah Taylor receives a cryptic, twenty-five-year-old letter from a great uncle he never knew. It claims a home awaits him on the Oregon coast that will turn his world inside out. Suspecting a prank, Micah arrives at Cannon Beach to discover a stunning brand new nine-thousand square foot house. And after meeting Sarah Sabin at a nearby ice cream shop, he has two reasons to visit the beach every weekend.When bizarre things start happening in the rooms of the home, Micah suspects they have some connection to his enigmatic new friend, Rick, the town mechanic. But Rick will only say the house is spiritual. This unnerves Micah because his faith slipped away like the tide years ago, and he wants to keep it that way. But as he slowly discovers, the home isn’t just spiritual, it’s a physical manifestation of his soul, which God uses to heal Micah’s darkest wounds and lead him into an astonishing new destiny."

Now, to me---they seem like two different books. If I had read the second synopsis- I would have realized it wouldnt be to my taste. Since it was the first that I read- it sounded like a nice thriller. And I really do feel misled.

103: I would think this sentence from the first description would be a clue:

When bizarre things start happening and new rooms keep appearing, Micah slowly discovers that the home is a physical manifestation of his soul and that God and evil forces are fighting over Micah and his true destiny.

104- Many thrillers and horror stories (King, Koontz etc) use the whole balance of good vs evil in stories. I have no problem with those. I also have no problem with novels that mention God (Just not into preachy). The second synopsis---does portray the novel in an entirely different light. One that does not appeal to me.

Forgot to add--- In the first one---there is no indication as to which side (good or evil) will "win" his soul. However, in the second- this is extremely clear.

It sounds to me like the difference between an in-depth description and a quick blurb, and not intentional deception. Are you asking for detailed plot synopses for every book offered on Member Giveaways and Early Reviewers? Some people may not like to be spoilered quite so much as you do.

I find it highly amusing that all this fuss is over a description that, in a brief 94 words, DOES mention God. If a 94-word description makes sure that it mentions God, it's a good indication that God might have an important role in the story.

#106 Are you asking for detailed plot synopses for every book offered on Member Giveaways and Early Reviewers?

I know I'm not. All I personally would like to see is two little words. Christian Fiction. Short and sweet.

#104: The first description reminds me of In the Mouth of Madness, or The Shining, with a more direct God. The second, not so much. The fact that it mentions God doesn't mean that it's a Christian God that demands faith; there's a big difference there.

>106 atimco:: I hadn't considered Spiceca's #103 Amazon synopsis to be spoilery. I think it would have been perfectly appropriate to list on MG and far more informative of the book's content.

106: Agreed. I'm not arguing against genre tags.

109: As Spiceca points out in #105, the Amazon description is "extremely clear" about who wins. Maybe that isn't spoilery in your opinion, but it is in mine!

#110 I shall be clearer- the words "which God uses to heal Micah’s darkest wounds and lead him into an astonishing new destiny" led me to believe that the evil aspect would not win.

Since there are horror and thriller stories that do sometimes have the evil aspect "win" out in the end, I felt this was an admission of the end result.

As far as it being a "spoiler" that would need to be taken up with the publishers as the second synopsis is what they have posted on their website.

Does God win in all "Christian Fiction" (the genre)? If so, isn't calling it "Christian Fiction" by default then a spoiler?

#106- personally I don't appreciate spoilers- which is why I just want the genre listed.

I know what genres I like and which ones I don't and even though there are bad examples of all genres, I at least have that one aspect starting out in the hopes of finding a good book. Not so much in this case.

112- I'm not sure. However, I think if God didn't win--- it probably wouldn't be considered Christian Fiction and instead better classified under other categories. But again, I'm not an expert in Christian Lit and am only making an assumption based on what would logically make sense to me.

Would someone who reads Christian Fiction-- want to read it if God didn't win? By that (if its true), it wouldn't really be a spoiler to post the genre.

>110 atimco:: You are right that Spiceca is of the option that the outcome -- that of God winning over evil -- is more clearly implied in the Amazon synopsis than in the GR synopsis. The quoted synopsis, however, does not explicitly state that outcome. I would consider a spoiler to be an explicit statement.

If the implication that God wins over evil is considered a spoiler, I would think that the outcome of every Christian fiction book would be inherently spoiled. I'm not aware of any work of Christian fiction that does not have God victorious. That said, I'm not very knowledgeable in the sub-genre, so I may be mistaken in that understanding.

I would think that this sort of implication in Christian fiction would be on par with a blurb on a romance novel listing the names of the hero and heroine. The blurb might not explicitly state that those two people are going to fall in love and get married, but the confines of the genre do not typically give any other outcome.

115: That makes sense, but not every genre operates under those predetermined rules. For many books of various genres, descriptions that go into the kind of detail as the Amazon one quoted above would be extremely spoilery. And we can, of course, quibble endlessly about what constitutes "an explicit statement" :)

Also, I'm not familiar enough with the genre of Christian fiction to be able to say if God wins every time, but it's not a far-out assumption.

116- Maybe instead of spoiler- we can use the term interpretation.

I would expect God to win in Christian fiction, just as I expect the hero and heroine to end up happily ever after in romances and the detective to figure out who the killer is in mysteries. Sure, there are rare exceptions, but the "how" is more important than wondering if these outcomes will occur.

Even in the possibly more wide-open world of fantasy and sci fi, I expect the budding witch/wizard/dragon tamer/starship pilot or what have you to come into his or her powers and accomplish whatever quest he or she is on, come to some kind of understanding with the aliens, etc.

We do mark Christian Fiction with genre stickers at my library because we have a significant patron base who will read nothing else. It's for their convenience rather than for warning others away.

Edit: They tend to have 'Christian Fiction' pre-printed on the back, above the plot synopsis. We use that as our qualifier rather than making our own judgment calls.

We use half a dozen other kinds of genre stickers as well.

This is off-topic, but I keep thinking of the time a patron came in with a book one of his daughters had checked out, demanding that we remove it from our shelves. I tried to talk to him for a while, but he got angrier and angrier. I finally agreed to have the Library Board review the book (They did not remove it from our shelves.). Then I asked, "John, what should we do if an Atheist demands that we remove the Bible from our shelves?" He had no answer.

I used to have some Mennonite ladies ask me about certain books, too, but none of them ever demanded that a book be removed. Since then, though, all the Christian romances have been placed together in one section.

120- Good counter argument. And I totally agree with it.

Personally, I have no problem with the genre of Christian Fiction and dont see any reason for them not to be written/published. I just dont want to read it--- the main point is that if I have the ability to request a book (and I only get one) then I want to make sure its a book I really want. This is my 7th month using ER/MG and never did I think that information such as genre should be left out.

For those complaining, there is at least one book in the upcoming March batch by Kregel Publications. It is a Christian publisher.

Yes, the blurb that was here hints at being ChristFic.

The Amazon blurb, though, screams ChristFic. And I'd think that if it were considered spoilery by its target audience, the publishers would know better than to include it in the blurb.

I understand the disappointment in finding out a book is not what one thought, but I also think that fiction with a Christian element should not be singled out as the only bait-and-switch proselytizing "offender." I've read fiction and nonfiction with non-alarming blurbs that ended up nauseatingly preachy for/against religion, non-heterosexuality, feminism/misogyny, birthing babies/childlessness, political beliefs, ecoactivism, etc.

On the plot twist, does anyone remember the fuss over The Crying Game when it first came out? I went to the theater on opening night thinking it was about the Irish Republican Army. The room thinned out about half-way through, but it had a lot of impact on many of those who stayed, who never would have shown up knowing the plotline (call it genre) in advance. I don't favor a system that privileges some beliefs as "open-mindedness" but assumes others marginal. What possible genres require a disclaimer (GLBT, Urban, YA)? Who decides? I support artistic and marketing freedom, particularly when the book comes free, and the right of the reader to publicly express honest displeasure or pleasant surprise.

A lot of "Christian fiction" is bad not really because it's Christian but because it's just BAD, poorly written with little depth. More gets churned out because lots of people will buy even if it's atrocious. But then C.S. Lewis is a great example of blatant proselytizing yet more compelling writing. Bad writing invades fantasy, chick lit, and politics/current events with an unusually high quantity of real stinkers, because the market's solid enough to support the same recycled story lines (often no less preachy and predictable, just about different themes.) A lot of preachy novelists go overboard without an identifiable genre. (Ayn Rand comes to mind among others.) Ultimately, reading is a risk. If you don't like something, then don't finish it, perhaps write a "spoiler" review revealing the offense, and pass it on to someone else.

>122 thornton37814: Thanks for the heads up! If I hadn't looked at the publisher info for that book I might have requested it based on the ER description.

122- Thanks! I too would have probably requested this book as well based on the description provided.

On a side note- interestingly the book that was in question that started this whole thread is up for grabs in March ER- with the full synopsis...Hopefully it will be received by its best audience this time.

Going back up the line a bit, I would agree that God tends to win in Christian Fiction. But not always. Even Grace Livingston Hill lost a sinner once in a while.

>127 MerryMary: But it's always easy to tell the "bad" folks in Grace Livingston Hill--they smoke, drink, stay out late dancing, and, if female, wear makeup. The good girls have perfect complexions and their love of God shines out of their eyes, so they don't need makeup.

Pardon my sarcasm--I've read a lot of Grace Livingston Hill, but I tend to prefer the less preachy of her books.

#124 - caffron - I really like a lot of the points you make. Thank you.

I'm speaking as a Christian who cannot stand poor writing, no matter what genre. I also wouldn't mind tags of some sort, but I'm pretty well versed about the publishers and the key words to know what to avoid. That being said, there are some terrific authors of "Christian Fiction," so I don't avoid them all, just any of the ones that smack of romance novels.

The March batch has a link for every choice to the Publisher's info. I think that should help out a great deal. I read a lot of Christian fiction but there are actually some Christian publishers I avoid so, this is a nice/convenient way to check out the publisher before requesting.

130>

The March batch has a link for every choice to the Publisher's info. I think that should help out a great deal.

Considering that link has been there for as long as I can remember, but people either don't click on it or don't figure out what they need to know, I'm not convinced that it will suddenly start helping now.

>131 lorax: Shows you how observant I am! I had not noticed before and actually went searching on certain publishers, oops...

132>

You probably noticed because of this thread, sort of like how after you learn a new word you see it everywhere, or suddenly there are references to the cool new fact you've just learned all over the place. Still, it's a useful link, and I've used it multiple times myself.

>133 lorax: yep, or like when you purchase a vehicle, suddenly that vehicle seems to be everywhere, lol

When/if you get a book from Members Giveaway you usually will read and review it. But there is no penalty for not reading, or not reviewing it. If you get a book that you do not want to read/review/or keep you can leave it anywhere and someone will pick it up; either they will like it, or they will also pass it on. This thread shows understandable differences of opinion. I am tempted to quote a rejoinder I often have heard "You go to your church and I'll stay home from mine." And so I have just done that. Some good points have been made, but the bottom line, I think, is that there is no book for everyone, and we cannot change the system to insure our own desires since these ARE individual, not universal.

I just have to say, watch out this month. ER March has several books with an overtly Christian message, from Christian publishers.

81:Perhaps the MG/ER entry for a book should have something like the top five tags in LT listed on the MG/ER page. That way people can easily see what other people tagged a book before deciding if they want to request it.

#137: It wouldn't matter for most of them, as the only copies are held by the ER account, and maybe the publishers and in wishlists.

Well said, Esta1923.

Edited because I left off the punctuation. Oops!

With all the comments about people being "duped" into requesting a book, one would think that participating in the ER program costs more than a few minutes per book:

read the blurb (5 seconds)
click on Request Button (1 second)
open package and dispose of packaging (1 minute)
read enough to realize it is Not Your Thing (2 minutes-1 hour)

How busy are we, really?

I think the cost is more to the publisher than to the person receiving the free book. It seems to me that it would be in their own best interest to take a little extra time and energy to write a better description. But you can't save people from their own mistakes.

I think we all ought to be less touchy. The Early Reviewers program is terrific idea and, I am sure, a massive undertaking for the admins. I recommend that all participants check their pantry and see if they don't have some "slack" tucked away that they could, perhaps, give when needed.

My sentiments exactly, thejazzmonger.

But, as I think the OP and others have suggested, this isn't just a rant about having one's time wasted, the problem is twofold: on the one hand, if one gets a book that one doesn't really want, one then doesn't get one of the books that one does want; on the other hand, if one gets this book that one doesn't want, someone who does want it doesn't get it.

Not only are those two people injured or inconvenienced or what have you, but it also does a disservice to the author and the publisher.

On yet another hand (verging into sci fi here with all the hands), I do think that a little extra investigating of the publisher might be called for if this is, in fact, an issue. That has to take less time than requesting, receiving, reading, rejecting, and sending the book elsewhere.

# 140

"ditto"

read enough to realize it is Not Your Thing (2 minutes-1 hour)

I'd feel any review made by reading 2 minutes of the book was extremely deficient. I've bailed out of a couple of ER books, but I made it halfway through at least.

I wasn't thinking of someone actually writing a review based on two minutes of reading. Just that the reader might discover, some time before completing the entire book, that it was of a genre or type that that one preferred not to spend time on.

These are ER books, so the person has agreed to write a review.

I would think it was in the interest of the publisher to disclose this sort of information. It raises the chance of good reviews and not a half star rating with a review like:

This book was advertised falsely. Some people may like their fiction dosed with a large portion of sermonizing, but it really turned me off. I couldn't finish it.

Actually, the OP's book was not an ER book. It was a Member Giveaway book, and the rules are different for those.

I understand the frustration, but I think it's wrong to assume that publishers are trying to be sneaky. I also feel frustrated by all of the judgment about the quality of Christian fiction and assumptions of its intent.

Do some Christian fiction books proselytize? Yes but not all.
Do some Christian fiction books not even mention God? Yes but not all.
Are some Christian fiction books poorly written? yes but not all.

There's a heck of a lot of broad brushing going on in this thread.

I have my own frustrations with Christian fiction and it would probably be helpful if the publishers were marked in some way, and for that matter maybe all the publishers and imprints could have a blanket statement of what kind of books are published under their umbrella. (genre is not exactly helpful there is Christian fiction romance, thrillers, fantasy, you get the idea)

In any case, I've blogged about this before...here's a handy reference for the future:
http://www.myfriendamysblog.com/2009/02/how-to-spot-christian-fiction-book.html

The majority of free books on Kindle are from Chrisitan publishers that do not disclose that as a predominant theme in the book. Because they are free, they get downloaded so often they rise to the top of the bestseller list, finding it difficult to find actual bestsellers worth reading. I do not think everything needs to be disclosed, but when the major theme in the book is a conversion story, a salvation theme etc.. it should be indicated, just as other major storylines are. If it is a minor part of the story, it wouldn't be necessary to disclose and wouldn't likely annoy anyone if it wasn't. I almost never download free kindle books without checking out the publishers closely because I have gotten too annoyed at the tactics, which are definitely intentional, of the publishers. They misrepresent the books as popular fiction (romance, sci fi, action, mystery..) get you interested in the book and about 1/2 way through til the end it become over the top evangelism. The entire 2nd half of the book is different than the first. I am a Christian, and have no problem with the message, but don't enjoy it in my literature as it is usually done always the same way, in very corny, forced dialogue. I prefer subtle themes, moral messages that stick with you after the fact.

>148 lovemybooks:

Thank you for this post and for sharing the list of publishers. I'll admit that I apparently misunderstood the *term* Christian fiction. I thought the whole point was to proselytize, ergo if there wasn't preaching it didn't get the genre name. Is there such a thing as vampire-less vampire fiction? For my own part, I stand corrected on that and apologize for any frustration that might have created.

It's funny--I've found so much bad fiction of all types that I rarely read any that hasn't reached classic status or isn't by a familiar author. The exception to this is translated fiction, which I figure has overcome another screening barrier before reaching me. Publishers are simply not doing a good job at one of their main purposes, to screen/select and edit quality books, in which case the best approach for readers is get to know the publishers rather than rely on genre or book description.

Christian fiction can be simply a good story with no graphic sex scenes (which doesn't mean there isn't any romance), where people don't fall in bed upon first meeting, there isn't a lot of cursing, and most of the characters have basic decent moral standards. I've read a few of those that didn't even mention God, or "The Lawd," as my dear Southern-lady mother would have said.

No, I'm not a prude. It's just that sometimes it's refreshing to happen upon a book of that nature.

"basic decent moral standards."

--according to Christianity--. Which is one of the reasons some, myself included, can't stomach the stuff, even if it is light on the actual preaching.

But as for the general argument, I can see both sides. Yes, we get free stuff and it's awesome, but no, I don't see any reason to write misleading blurbs.

Thanks #148 for the helpful list.

Condescend much?

I didn't mean that those basic moral standard were flaunted. You can just tell by the lack of wanton sex, of cursing, etc. that those moral standard are there. I for one happen to appreciate that occasionally in a book. If you enjoy books with wanton sex, a lot of cursing, and no apparent moral standards to the exclusion of all others, feel free!

Edit:
By the way, if you look at my library, you'll see that most of my books do not fit the above description. I still enjoy a book occasionally that does.

It would be a dull world if we all liked the same things.

>150 SchanleyMedia:

"Publishers are simply not doing a good job at one of their main purposes, to screen/select and edit quality books . . ."

I think it's lovely if a publisher does this, but there are obviously dozens/hundreds/thousands that don't and aren't bothered by it. Their main purpose is to make money, and if they can do it by publishing whatever dreck crosses their path, without bothering with the refinements of copy editing or proofreading, then that's fine by them.

I've come across any number of publishers' websites that trumpet their dedication to quality books and then you read something of theirs . . .

So further deception in terms of content doesn't seem like a big surprise.

#153, If something isn't Christian it doesn't follow it must have "no apparent moral standards." I think the point being made was more that Christian morality is not necessarily what everyone else considers to be moral (ie proselytizing with the intent to save someone's soul). Whereas other things one may consider to be moral are not under some branches of Christianity (birth control, homosexuality, etc).

Kira,

If A implies B, it does not follow that B must imply A.

Here's the classic example.
A (It rained.) => B (The sidewalk is wet.)
B (The sidewalk is wet.) ≠> A (It rained.)

You can use this example to see that not Christian does not imply "no apparent moral standards." I did not imply that. You inferred it in error.

I understand logic... it's you who is being a bit condescending now. I still think it is you not me who made the error when you said:

"If you enjoy books with wanton sex, a lot of cursing, and no apparent moral standards to the exclusion of all others, feel free!" in response to someone who didn't want to read 'decent moral standards according to Christianity'; you implied that when someone doesn't want Christian morals they must instead want books with "no apparent moral standards", which is itself a fallacy of false dichotomy. Sure you didn't state it it all in logical form, but that doesn't mean premises can't be hidden and inferred. After all, language is hardly formal logic.

Whatever you think is right.

>154 ejj1955:

For the publishers that market dreck, I'll just wait for self-publishing and Internet distribution to put them out of business. No value added, no reason to pay them. Sure you can sell your own home, but a Realtor will tell you what you need to fix to get a buyer and a better price.

Strange things happen : I have followed this thread with interest. I'm amazed at the fuss and hope all will settle down. ** Here's my strange thing: a woman I have known since her childhood, now a grandmother, has written a book. This week she sent me galley proofs. It is being published by a (dreaded) Christian publisher. I do not read detective stories, but this one has as its ad hoc detective, a grandmother who DOES solve the crime. Am I offended by the fact that my friend is a devout Christian? No. (If you wonder: I am not religious.) Am I offended by a scene in a church? No. Do I wish my friend good luck? Yes.

I also wish your friend good luck. Maybe you could send me a message when her book is published.

#149 - Thanks for the warning on the 'stealth' ebook freebies, ark76. I haven't bought an eReader yet, but I am thinking about it. I know I won't want to waste my time (or eReader memory) on that particular kind of book.

For the sake of fairness, there is a flip side...
For ereaders, I recommend a Kindle - no memory issues to worry about - you never run out - it is all archived unlimited.
And you an say, for free, what is the harm in trying it out. For me, the harm is my time and commitment to a book. I get hooked and then am dissapointed when the book changes on me and I feel let down. For others, they would probably feel no harm/no foul since free.
I have never run into the "stealth" ebook issues with any books for pay.

103 - from that first blurb I would have expected horror, not Christian fiction. :P The bit about the "which God uses to heal Micah’s darkest wounds and lead him into an astonishing new destiny" in the amazon one is the only part that would make suspect it is Christian fiction.