The "Pre" Histories by Herodotus

Somehow I agreed to lead the group read of the first ever non-fiction tome on the Salon reading list. For those who like to plan ahead and/or who are not buried in ISOLT, this is the "advance" thread.

I thought I would post a few bits of information about various translations I have found and perhaps a bit of ancillary reading material. First, for a modern impression of The Histories by the late Ryszard Kapuscinski, try Travels with Herodotus. I here include a quote from a really well done review by our own Macumbeira, but recommend you read the entire review.

"This 25-century-old travel account turns out to be an ideal travel companion for Ryszard, filling his lonely hours with wonderful tales and given him consolation in moments of despair. Replacing the Bible in the trunk of this communist -educated non-believer, it has accompanied him on many travels."

http://macumbeira-macumbeira.blogspot.com/2009/12/travels-with-herodotus-by-rysz...

I think you will find that first Mac's review and then Travels With Herodotus will whet your appetite for The Histories.

I have five translations--and no, I have not read all of them. There are other translations, but I think the ones I found are the most widely circulating. Suggestions from others will be welcome!

To get ready for the group read, I decided to read the same parts of the ones I was able to find easily to compare the translations, the introductions and notes and other included material in the books. Each translation has its supporters and critics. The translators sometimes criticize other translations. Since I only have two of them with me today, I am only going to comment on those two. In the next post.

One of the oldest translations of which I am aware is that by George Rawlinson. It is in the public domain. The library copy I have has no notes, no introduction, nothing. I believe there are reprints of his translation with notes and at least an introduction, but I have not seen any, and did not find any at Amazon. Perhaps those of you with Rawlinson translations can help with more information.

The other translation I will discuss today will be "The Landmark Herodotus" edited by Robert B. Strassler and translated by Andrea L. Purvis. Many believe that this is the Herodotus to read. It has an extensive introduction, innumerable maps, a glossary, an editor's preface, a translator's preface and 21 appendices. It also weighs a ton and the full price cost of the paperback edition is US$27.00. For some, this might be a bit of overkill. I find that the sidenotes and footnotes can be a bit distracting.

I will copy three passages from each of the translations. For Rawlinson, the page numbers are included to try to give a rough idea where in the book the passage falls, but if you are only looking at this for a comparison of the language of the translation, it won't matter. Another difficulty with Rawlinson is that there are no other reference marks in the translation.

Opening passage of the book:

These are the researches of Herodotus of Halicarnassus, which he publishes, in the hope of thereby preserving from decay the remembrance of what men have done, and of preventing the great and wonderful actions of the Greeks and the Barbarians from losing their due meed of glory’ and withal to put on record what were their grounds of feud.

Book IV, p. 255
Now Aryandes had been made governor of Egypt by Cambyses. He it was who in aftertimes was punished with death by Darius for seeking to rival him. Aware, by report and also by his own eyesight, that Darius wished to leave a memorial of himself such as no king had ever left before, Aryandes resolved to follow his example, and did so, till he got his reward. Darius had refined gold to the last perfection of purity in order to have coins struck of it: Aryandes, in his Egyptian government, did the very same with silver, so that to this day there is no such pure silver anywhere as the Aryandic. Darius, when this came to his ears, brought another charge, a charge of rebellions, against Aryandes, and put him to death.

Book VII, p. 358

Whereupon Mardonius took the word, and said—
“Of a truth, my lord, thou dost surpass, not only all living Persians, but likewise those yet unborn. Most true and right is each word that thou has now uttered; but best of all thy resolve, not to let the Ionians who live in Europe—a worthless crew—mock us any more. It were indeed a monstrous thing if , after conquering and enslaving the Sacae, the Indians, the Ethiopians, the Assyrians, and many other mighty nations, not for any wrong that they had done us, but only to increase our empire, we should then allow the Greeks, who have done us such wanton injury, to escape our vengeance. What is it that we fear in them?—not surely their numbers?—not the greatness of their wealth? We know the manner of their battle—we know how weak their power is; already have we subdued their children who dwell in our country, the Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself have had experience of these men when I marched against them by the orders of thy father; and though I went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself, yet not a soul ventured to come out against me to battle.”

And now for something completely different, the same passages from "The Landmark Herodotus":

Opening paragraph:

Herodotus of Halicarnassus here presents his research so that human events do not fade with time. May the great and wonderful deeds—some brought forth by the Hellenes, others by the barbarians—not go unsung; as well as the causes that led them to make war on each other.

Book Four:

This Aryandes had been appointed governor of Egypt by Cambyses; later he was put to death for trying to act like the equal of Darius. He had personally seen and heard how Darius had set his heart on leaving behind a memorial to himself unlike any of those left by other kings, and Aryandes attempted to imitate the King in this until he received his just reward. What happened was that after Darius refined a quantity of gold to its highest possible purity and struck the most valuable coins from this metal, Aryandes, acting as the ruler of Egypt, did the same thing, but with silver. Even today, the purest silver coin is the Aryandic. But when Darius found out that Aryandes was doing this, he had him executed, although he did so on a different charge, accusing him of having revolted against him.

Book VII

Thus (Darius) ended his speech, and now Mardonios spoke up: “My lord, you are the best of all Persians, not only of those who came before you, but even of those yet to be born, since everything you said was right on the mark, especially your refusal to allow the Ionians who dwell in Europe to laugh at us when they have no right to do so. For we have conquered and made slaves of the Sacae, Indians, Ethiopians, Assyrians, and many other great nations, not because they had committed injustices against Persia, but only to increase our own power through them; so it would indeed be dreadful if after doing that to them, we do not punish the Hellenes, who began the wrongdoing against us.”

I will appreciate any comments, thoughts, criticisms. I will get back in a few days with the other translations.

This is invaluable information, Lisa (not to mention time saving for so many of us) who'd rather not, if we can avoid it, spend the time it takes to go find all the translations and lay them side by side to see which one "reads or sounds best" to our eyes and ears.

Thank you big time for doing this!

Lisa, this is terrific! Thanks so much. I have the Rawlinson, but will have to consider the Landmark, I think. I'll check and see of my Rawlinson has any extra material.

'Rique, theaelizabet, thanks!

And, oops! I missed the last bit of the section from Book VII in the Landmark translation. Another difference is where the translators choose to make paragraphs.

"What have we to fear? The number of men they could assemble? The amount of money they could collect? We know what they are like in battle, and we know that their power and influence is quite feeble. We have subjugated their sons who inhabit our own land and are called Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself, under orders from your father, have already attempted to march against these men, and I advanced as far as Macedon, just a short distance away from Athens, and no one came out to face us in battle."

An interesting note--there are those who would not call "The Histories" non-fiction at all. Some say he was a prose version of Homer. Just something to keep in mind when we start reading.

Wow Lisa, what an intro ! Fantastic.
Thanks for the link. I have the mega-super-incredible -fantastic Strassler edition and also the Folio Society book ( but I need to look up who was the translator of that edition )

thanks for the link : )

Took a look at the Strassler yesterday at the bookstore and won't even bother digging out my Rawlinson. Lovely book, (so many maps!) and since there's a paperback version (about $18 on Amazon), it won't break my bank.

Has anyone listened to these lectures on Herodotus from the Teaching Company? http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=2353 My library system has them and I thought I might give them a try.

I have also the Aubrey de Sélincourt 1954 translation of the Histories. This translation was used for the "Folio Society" edition.
Very readable too, but not on the level of the Strassler.
And for the freaks out there... yes you.. you can have a good idea of the theatre of Herodotus' travels with the National Geographic map : Ancient Iran ( august 2008 )

three great books

http://www.librarything.com/series/The+Landmark+Series+(2)

Teresa >7 theaelizabet: My library (The Chicago Public Library!) does not seem to have it. I have not listened to it. Let us know if you think it is worthwhile if you get the chance to listen to it.

Mac >8 Macumbeira:: One of my translations is the de Sélincourt, so I will be quoting it. One of the other translators--I don't have my notes right now so I cannot remember who--criticized that translation in the introduction to his own translation. When I find it, I will let you all know.

Mac >9 Macumbeira:: When I click on the link it takes me to a page of nothing. Is it a joke and I am being obtuse or is it a problem between Netherlands LT and English LT?

Okay, Mac, I think I figured it out. You were talking about the Thucydides, the Xenophon and the Herodotus, right? I found it on LT, and I am going to copy the link here, and hope it works: http://www.librarything.com/series/The+Landmark+Series

Maybe the "+" at the end of your link was the problem?

I have the Thucydides--started but not finished. I will admit my lack of education to say that I don't know who Xenophon is (was).

I'm interested in joining the group read. Are there any prerequisite readings?

We will certainly be glad to have you, and there are no prerequisite readings, booksontrial. (This is LT, after all) Although I "volunteered" to lead, I am certainly no scholar, and will be educating myself along with everyone else. The read is actually scheduled to begin in August, and I am trying to post in advance some information that might be useful.

If you are interested in delving deeper, a good overview of many perspectives on The Histories is Cambridge Companion to Herodotus.

>11 LisaCurcio: not a joke, but you figured that out already.
LT always send me back to the Dutch site ( . nl ).

>12 booksontrial: Yes, buy us a drink : )

>13 LisaCurcio: Voila another book on my wishlist.

I'm planning on doing this read, but my choice of edition is limited by the fact that I live in Brazil, where editions of Herodotus in English are somewhat limited, to put it mildly. So, I'm basically restricted to what I can download onto my Kindle. There are a couple of editions available for Kindle, but reviews at Amazon.com indicate that the Kindle-enhanced translation by G.C. Macaulay is the one to have, due to Kindle formatting issues. Will anyone else be using this translation?

>13 LisaCurcio:: LisaCurcio,

Thanks for the info. Are there any books that are frequently quoted in the Histories, do you know?

>14 Macumbeira:: Macumbeira,

lol, gladly. But, it depends on your choice of drink. I don't buy junk.

>15 jpyvr: That is not one of the translations I have to compare to others. The translation issue for me is one of how it "sounds". When I get back to posting the excerpts from the three others that I have, I will have further comment that is partly based on my taste. Others will, I am sure, have different opinions. For you, it might be best to have a good format. The story is the same, after all :-).

12,14> Oh yes, we can always use a drink!

I started the Histories this week. Am reading the recent Penguin edition which is an update based on the Selincourt translation. A decent intro. A few maps. Endnotes, but not too many. It seems to strike a nice balance and emphasizes, per the intro, the oral performance aspect of the Histories. Lots of one-liners, wind-ups and so on. Or maybe I'm just noticing them because of the intro...

I'm going to browse along with ya'll in the Portable Greek Historians. Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

James, I too will be reading the Macauley translation on my kindle. Thanks, Lisa for all of your hard work!

Check out the movie "300". The lines come straight out of Herodotus. Whoah

hmmm... kinda hard to concentrate on the dialogue with all those abs staring you in the face. ;-)

One line to remember :

- ( the Messenger ) Xerxes has so many archers, that the arrows will block out the sun.
- ( The Spartans ) Great, than we will fight in the shade

Is that Mc Christal power talk or what !

Haha... Zing!

(I am sad though that McChrystal is gone... I liked him)

The entire situation in Afghanistan is a disaster. Every minute we continue there Karzai&Co are becoming more and more wealthy on my tax dollars while aiding, abetting, planning, and executing rampant, terminal corruption undercutting any sense of competence the US might bring. The near universal opinion of the NGO's over there, the one's who work with local government officials day in and day out (and occasionally talk with American reporters) say that until Karzai&Co are removed, nothing will improve. I don't think MacChrystal understood the nature of the beast he was fighting and it frustrated him. Until the corruption is cleaned out from top to bottom people there have no sense of what good governance can bring, thus they have no interest in seeing another corrupt regime being propped up by the American occupation. The sooner we get out of there the sooner Afghanistan can settle its own hash, create what stable governance it can and begin to rebuild itself into whatever Afghanistan becomes. We are wasting lives, influence, a sense of our selves, and tons (quite literally) of money on a war that isn't winnable. We should get out ASAP if not sooner.

Maybe after Herodotus we can read Thucydides, a much more cogent read for our current day and time. When Athens decided to beat one of its colonies into submission for economic gain (stealing from the colony), it lost its empire and became a slave state itself. One could I suppose, refer to economic empire as The Road to Serfdom (although, I doubt seriously this is what Hayek had in mind) . A lesson we might wish to consider ourselves.

The sicily chapter in Thucydides is mind opening.

I have Thucydides, and I would like to read it. Someone else will have to take that on, however :D

I might be mentioning Thucydides in the course of discussing Herodotus. I will be looking forward to further input Mac.

http://www.losttrails.com/pages/Hproject.html

Great link, Mac. Thanks.

That IS a great link! Reading about some of these treasures and battles i am reminded of Voltaire's commentary on the Old Testament at times. C'mon. Did Croesus really have and give away a one million pound golden statue or whatever it was?

>30 slickdpdx:: slickdpdx,

"Voltaire's commentary on the Old Testament"?

Is there a Touchstone link for that? I'm surprised that Voltaire not only read the Old Testament but also wrote a commentary on it.

Mr. Arouet's Philosophical Dictionary contains a lot of analysis of the claims and religion found in the old T. which was, i think, considered a bit safer to go after.

I managed to gather a very little bit of ambition today--a holiday because the 4th of July fell on a Sunday and heaven knows we need to take a day off besides celebrating Independence Day!

Some comments and translation from the Penguin Classics 1972 revised reprinting of "The Histories":

No ISBN number; translation by Aubrey de Sélincourt, originally in 1954; 1970 Introduction by A.R. Burn. De Sélincourt died in 1962 and Burn died in 1991.

The 36 page introduction is broken into eight sections with the following titles:

1. Herodotus in his Own Words
2. The biographical Tradition about Herodotus
3. The Life Work
4. The Plan of the Work
5. How was it Composed?
6. Herodotus’ Sources
7. What can We Believe?
8. A Note on Drachmas and Talents

There is an index and there are maps of “Greece and Western Asia Minor” and “The Middle East”. There are no footnotes, endnotes or paragraph numbers.

Opening Paragraph:

“Herodotus of Halicarnassus, his Researches are here set down to preserve the memory of the past by putting on record the astonishing achievements both of our own and of other peoples; and more particularly, to show how they came into conflict.”

Book Four:

Aryandes had been made governor of Egypt by Cambyses: he subsequently lost his life as the result of an attempt to rival Darius. Aware by what he had seen and heard that Darius wished to perpetuate his memory by something no other king had previously done, Aryandes started to follow his example—but he soon got what he deserved for his impudence. The facts were these: Darius had issued a gold coinage, of which the metal was of the greatest possible purity, and Aryandes as governor of Egypt had followed suit by a similar issue of silver—and indeed to this day the purest silver coinage is the Aryandic. Darius, when he came to know of this, disguised the real cause of his anger by bringing a charge of rebellion against Aryandes, and had him executed.

Book VII

"The first to speak after the king was Mardonius. ‘Of all Persians who have ever lived,’ he began, ‘and of all who are yet to be born, you, my lord, are the greatest. Every word you have spoken is true and excellent, and you will not allow the wretched Ionians in Europe to make fools of us. It would indeed be an odd thing if we who have defeated and enslaved the Sacae, Indians, Ethiopians, Assyrians, and many other great nations for no fault of their own, but merely to extend the boundaries of our empire, should fail now to punish the Greeks who have been guilty of injuring us without provocation. Have we anything to fear from them? The size of their army? Their wealth? The question is absurd; we know how they fight; we know how slender their resources are. People of their race we have already reduced to subjection—I mean the Greks of Asia, Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself before now have had some experience of these men, when under orders from your father I invaded their country; and I got as far as Macedonia—indeed almost to Athens itself—without a single soldier daring to oppose me.”

I made a mistake in post 2 above when I said the king who was speaking before Mardonius was Darius. It was actually Xerxes.

I have two more translations to report on: David Grene's published in 1987 by the University of Chicago Press and Robin Waterfield's published in 1998 by Oxford University Press. I hope to get up a little more ambition in the next couple of days to finish this part of "the pre-histories".

I'm joining this group. Simply putting this post so that the group will appear high on my list of groups. Maybe there's a better way of doing this.

Just make sure you star it, Gerry, and it will be easy to find.

I am starting Book III. I cannot wait to discuss Herodotus. I am almost bursting with things to talk about.

Cheater, cheater! We will call on you first.

Were you one of those kids in school who waved his hand vigorously when the teacher asked a question? :D

No, the book was already on the mental pile of books I really wanted to read and it looked like it might be tough so I took a headstart on the side of my current fiction book, which was Trainspotting. Because it is so readable, entertaining, thought-provoking and anything else you might want out of a book, I got carried away!

Slick, you are right. It is amazingly readable--an adventure story if ever there was one. One of the things that will give rise to discussion, I think.

Definitely. Another reason I am so eager to discuss it is because it doesn't require a scholarly historical discussion.

No, in fact a lot of the scholarly discussion about "The Histories" does not talk about it from a historical perspective. Lots of other things, i.e., the "is he a prose version of Homer" that I mentioned above. Of course, much has been said on both sides about whether it is history or not.

I promise that this weekend I will finish my posts with information on the translations I have. Then we will be ready to start throwing out some discussion topics.

I hope this little tête à tête will draw a few more readers.

Lisa, I have the Macauley kindle version... what is you opinion of this translation?

Tani,

First, I do not have any opinions about the translations. We talked about this originally and a little bit on this thread, and the question really is: "how does it 'sound' to you"? I have been posting a couple of parts of the five translations that I have to give everyone an opportunity to see what those "sound" like in case there are people who are still deciding on which one to read. I am not a scholar, and I don't read any Greek much less ancient Greek, so I have no idea which is the "best" translation.

I do not have a copy of the Macauley translation. There are some people who are going to read that Kindle version because that is all that is available to them. I really think the essence of the book will be the same no matter which translation one reads. It really is an ancient adventure story--one battle after another with some cultural background thrown in. One of the questions is "how accurate is the cultural background?".

In my limited experience with various translations, it is interesting to discuss the different translations of the same event. Of the five translations I have, it seems that the interpretations are similar, but the language used is different. Gets back to the "how does it sound to you" question.

There are some interesting science and natural history observations too.

And I cannot wait until we get to the Egypt parts. I love Egypt.

Oh, silly me... I did not go back and read that part. I see now that James and I are going to be reading the Macauley translation. I am excited. Thanks, Lis!

Herodutus Histories were written in a pre-scientific age where rigorous research was not done very much. There was a lot of dependence on oral tradition which, actually, was quite accurate in those times. The following quote from the Product Description on Amazon would hardly pass muster with modern historians. But, is there any such thing as uninterpreted history -- well, that is quite another question for another LT thread.

"Herodotus was a Greek historian living in Ionia during the fifth century BCE. He traveled extensively through the lands of the Mediterranean and the Black Sea and collected stories, and then recounted his experiences with the varied people and cultures he encountered. Cicero called him “the father of history,” and his only work, The Histories, is considered the first true piece of historical writing in Western literature. With lucid prose that harks back to the time of oral tradition, Herodotus set a standard for narrative nonfiction that continues to this day."

Gather round, ye all. Let's enjoy our reading and discussion of the Histories.

The penultimate translation:

University of Chicago Press, ISBN 0-226-32772-8 (pbk), Translated by David Grene, published 1987

Grene translates the title as “The History”. His 32 page introduction talks a great deal about Herodotus’ method and style. He concludes with a note about his translation:

“The English in which Herodotus comes before us should be direct, powerful, and clear but also, I think, a little odd. His Ionic is a literary dialect; it links him with Homer, the main share of whose language is Ionic. . . . . . The English in which he now speaks to us must have a flavor, at least, that is as traditional and literary and a little archaic as Homer sounded for the fifth-century Greek.”

He criticizes de Sélincourt on the basis that “(h)is English is racy, it reads well, and it is sharp and to the point, but it entirely fails to convey any part of the conscious mask of Herodotus: his use of an inherited way of talking (from Homer) while treating of something new. The Penguin Herodotus sounds exactly as though new-minted by a twentieth century journalist. There are keen strokes and very little nuance, which is quite false to the Greek style and to the strange man who is himself so preeminently the style.”

Grene provides eight maps, minimal end notes and an index.

Opening paragraph:

I, Herodotus of Halicarnassus, am here setting forth my history, that time may not draw the color from what man has brought into being, nor those great and wonderful deeds, manifested by both Greeks and barbarians, fail of their report, and, together with all this, the reason why they fought one another.

Book Four:

This Aryandes was viceroy of Egypt, appointed to the post by Cambyses; he later lost his life for trying to make himself the equal of Darius. For he learned (and had seen) that Darius was eager to leave a memorial of himself such as no other king had made. Aryandes imitated him—till he got his reward for it. Darius, you see, had refined gold to the finest possible purity and so coined, and Aryandes, when he was ruler of Egypt, did the same thing with silver, and now the Aryandic is the purest silver coinage obtainable. Darius found out what he was doing and had him killed, though the charge against him was not this but the suspicion of rebellion.

Book Seven:

After him Mardonius spoke: “Master, not only are you the one greatest among the Persians that have been but also of those that shall be, seeing how your words have hit the pith and very truth of the matter, and how you will not suffer these Ionians who live in Europe to mock at us—something they are surely not worthy to do. For it would certainly be a terrible thing if, for no injury done to Persia but simply to increase our power, we should have subdued and taken for our slaves the Sacae, the Indians, the Ethiopians, the Assyrians, and many other great nations, and then did not punish Greeks, who on their side began the wrongdoing. What should we fear? What gathering of vast numbers of their people? What power of their wealth? We know these peoples’ fighting; we know their power is mere weakness. We have subjugated their children who live in our territory, those who are called Ionians and Aeolians and Dorians. I myself have served against these men, under our father’s orders; I have driven as far as Macedonia and within an ace of Athens herself, and no one ventured to come against me to fight.

I will get to the last tomorrow.

"Within an ace", is that like a scosh? I don't believe I've ever seen "within an ace" as a translation of anything before. I wonder if this is a symptom of the eclectic language, if the phrase being translated is a metaphor with a similar meaning that best translates to the metaphor the translator chose?

Gene--that is interesting, isn't it? The other translations:

Rawlinson: "came but a little short of reaching Athens itself"

Landmark: "just a short distance away from Athens"

de Sélincourt: "indeed almost to Athens itself"

Waterfield: "which is not far from Athens itself"

So I would say a scosh is about it!

The last of the translations:

Oxford University Press, 1998, ISBN 0-19-212609-1. Translation by Robin Waterfield with introduction by Carolyn Dewald.

In addition to the 32 page introduction, the book includes ten maps, two appendices on greek clothing and on weights, measures, money and distance. There is also an index of proper names, a glossary of Greek terms, a glossary of foreign words used by Herodotus and a timeline from both the Greek and Persian perspectives.

The introduction is broken into topics:

Brief Synopsis of the Histories
Narrative Habits
The Histories as history
Herodotus as thinker: underlying assumptions and patterns

This introduction is quite accessible. Dewald does a good job of putting the book in a context that is understandable to the lay reader.

Opening paragraph:

Here are presented the results of the enquiry carried out by Herodotus of Halicarnasus The purpose is to prevent the traces of human events from being erased by time, and to preserve the fame of the important and remarkable achievements produced by both Greeks and non-Greeks; among the matters covered is, in particular, the cause of the hostilities between Greeks and non-Greeks.

Book Four:

Aryandes was the man Cambyses had made governor of Egypt. Later, he was to e executed for trying to claim equal status with Darius. What happened was that he realized—it was obvious—that Darius wanted to leave as a memorial to future generations something which no other king had achieved, and he proceeded to do likewise, until he received his reward for doing so. Darius had refined gold until it was a pure as it possible could be and then struck coinage with it; when Aryandes was in charge of Egypt he did the same with silver. In fact, Aryandic silver is the purest silver even today. When Darius found out what Aryandes was doing, he brought a different charge, that of sedition, against him, and had him executed.

Book Seven:

After he had finished, Mardonius spoke up. “Master,” he said, “you are the greatest Persian there has ever been, nor will there ever be anyone to equal you in the future either. Throughout your speech you made some excellent and extremely valid points, but particularly important was your promise not to let those despicable Ionians—the ones living in Europe—get away with making fools of us. We conquered the Sacae, the Indians, the Ethopians, the Assyrians, and plenty of other important races, and we now hold them in slavery. Why? Not because they did us any wrong but just because we wanted to increase our dominion. It would be a terrible thing, then, for us not to punish the unprovoked aggression of the Greeks.

“What do we have to fear? The number of troops they can muster? Their wealth and the power it gives them? No, we know how they fight and we know that their power is limited. We have overcome and hold subject their offspring—the so-called Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians, who settled here on our continent. I myself already have personal experience of campaigning against these men at your father’s command. I got as far as Macedonia, which is not far from Athens itself, without meeting any opposition.

There is "good stuff" in all of these books, and I will be drawing on them when we start discussing the Histories in just under two weeks.