Nittnut's third thread (I think) for the 75 books challenge

Hello, welcome. I am going to start this thread out by re-posting the address and information for my son's postcard/geography project.

Please help North Star Academy Middle School students with our "Postcard Project". All you need to do is send one (or more) postcards from where you live to this address: North Star Academy 16700 Keystone Blvd. Parker, Colorado 80134.

Thanks everyone!

Thanks for the reminder -- and I'm finally the first to post on a new thread!!! Starred...

Hi Jenn, got your new thread starred. Does the Postcard Project go on the whole school year?

Have you any from San Diego yet? I'll probably get by the zoo in the next week or two.

I was assuming that they don't need any from CO but thought I should ask you?

are they posting any sort of "tracking" of where they are getting postcards from? I've posted two so far (a generic Illinois one and one from Annapolis, MD). I'm off to Michigan next week, so if I get a chance I'll post one from there. I'd love to live vicariously through their project - I think it's such a neat idea. I hope they get lots of different locations covered.

Whoo-hoo Suzanne! I know - I'm never the first one there.

Pat, You are mentioned as the first postcard from ID on their facebook page. (:
The postcard project is going all year.

Patrick, I will ask about the tracking. The teacher has been posting to the facebook page http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/group.php?gid=119593778091697&v=wall&amp... pretty regularly.

Hi Joanne, I don't know if they have some from Colorado. I would assume so, but you know what they say about assuming things...

Roni, I think there is one from San Diego, I will ask tomorrow.

Have I mentioned how awesome you all are?

Hey, Jenn. Just checking in!

Book #119
Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day

I really enjoyed this book. It's a romp through 1930's London through the eyes of a middle aged woman (Guinevere) who has lived a quiet, sheltered and rather indigent life. The best part of this story is how Guinevere lets go of many of her inhibitions and preconceived notions yet is able to remain true to herself. She has a magical day, and it changes her life. She also changes the lives of nearly everyone she comes in contact with. Highly recommended. 5 stars.

I LOVED Miss Pettigrew - glad to see you did too!! :)

Miss Pettigrew has already taken up residence on my Amazon list. Whew! It's been quite a day for wishlisting.

#7 Hi Jenn, thanks for the link to the Facebook page. I've joined so I'll get to keep track of how they're doing. I'll be on the lookout for more postcards to send.

I guess I've seen the movie of Miss Pettigrew and didn't realize there was a book. I'll have to see if my library has it.

I sent a Wrigley Field one and a Dubuque, IA one on Monday. Next week, probably my St Louis (Busch Stadium) one.

I've got labels, I've got postcards, I've got postcard stamps. All set.

I remember telling a few friends and relatives, as a kid, that I was saving postcards and was thrilled to get them from all over the country and beyond.

I loved Miss Pettigrew: I'm glad you enjoyed it.

I will try to send some postcards in the next week or two.

Me, too! Me, too! I loved Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day. I actually saw the movie first (which is also wonderful). I NEVER see the movie first, but it worked out okay here. Loved the book, loved the movie.

Karen O.

Miss Pettigrew has gone to the top of my list, it sounds really good. I have heard of the movie but don't think I've seen it yet so also one to look out for - thanks.

Simply breezing in to say hello to you.

I enjoyed Miss Pettigrew as well, Jenn. I am glad the book has found another fan!

I really enjoyed the film. It is loosely based on the book - some parts match, others do not. The ending is very neat and romantic, rather than practical like the book. I liked both. I naturally prefer the book, but I didn't find it disappointing to have seen the film first. I never see the film first, except sometimes I do. :)

Miss Pettigrew is on transit from a neighbouring library so I'll be reading that one soon. Might go to the video shop today to search for the movie.

Oh, and postcard was sent yesterday and thought you might like to know that Whangaparaoa means 'Bay of Whales' in maori. And yes, we see many whales and dolphins here - forgot to write that on the postcard. Good luck Jonah, hope he gets the most cards.

Thank you for the postcard!

I hope you enjoy the book and movie!

I am reading The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest because I just can't help myself, I guess. So far it is the least violent of the series, but I'm not quite half way, so it's early yet.

I am also reading a book called The Smell of Old Lady Perfume. The author asked to befriend me on Goodreads, so I thought I'd check out her book. Has anyone read it? It's YA.

Thanks for re-posting the project's address. I've added it to my notes in my Blackberry so i'll have it with me when I head out to Singapore and Australia next month. I'll send a couple of postcards from there.

#22: Jenn, I have not read The Smell of Old Lady Perfume. I will be watching to see what you think of it.

Found you again! Miss Pettigrew is on my list.

Book #120
The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest

It was the least violent of the three, and finally got to business regarding the conspiracy theory that we see forming in the first two books. Overall, it was OK. Many loose threads are tied up, many alliances are created, many people deal with personal issues. A bit heavy on the glorious Blomkvist's irrisistability to women. Excellent trial scene near the end. Eat your heart out Perry Mason. I don't want to spoil, so I'll just leave it at that.

Hi Jenn, I've got you starred again.

My daughter lent me her copy of Hornet's Nest when I was there a couple of weeks ago. I also "can't help myself" when it comes to this series! It's good to know that it is less violent than the others. I thought Played With Fire was pretty good because it answered some questions I had about Lisbeth.

I must get to Miss Pettigrew one of these days. Everyone I know who has read it seems to like it. I need some lighter things to read while I'm on Cloud 9 dreaming about my newest granddaughter!

Book #121
Lucky Breaks

The second book about Lucky, this one deals more with her sense of abandonment by her father and her struggle to trust others. She is turning 11, and while looking forward to this birthday, she is also afraid of change. She was often mean to her best friends and confused about how to behave. Actually, somebody might want to explain PMS to her. Overall though, it is a sweet tale of growing up and learning to trust and how to admit you have been wrong.

Book #122
La's Orchestra Saves the World

Again, McCall Smith writes a story about a female main character and makes it believable. The story begins just before WWII in England, and ends in the 1960's. It is really about the inhabitants of a small village and how they coped with the war in small ways, gardening, war work, listening to the wireless, and of course, La's orchestra. It is about missing opportunities, and then missing them again, and then finally realizing you have nothing to lose and taking the opportunity when it comes your way again.

Quotes:

"We can't afford to be without God," Feliks continued. "Even if he doesn't exist, we have to hold on to him. Because if we don't, then how are we to convince ourselves that we have to go on with this fight? If you take God out of it, then right and justice become small, human things. And weak things, too."

If gluttony was a deadly sin, then it was only such in peacetime; in war the deadly sins were permitted: surely they were. People took pleasure where they could find it, and with gratitude - chocolate, love, anything that used to be in plentiful supply but which was now hard to find, or rationed.

Really? is McCall Smith really that enjoyable? I read 2 of his Ladies Detective Agency books and couldn't stand it. I've avoided reading anything else by him .... but I'm wondering given some of the reviews on LT, if perhaps some of his other books are less annoying.

I have the McCall Smith book in the BlackHole already despite my dislike of the No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency books. I am hoping that it is different enough that I may like it :)

Caroline - I started my McCall Smith experience with Portuguese Irregular Verbs. I picked it up because the title was so odd. Who would name a book Portuguese Irregular Verbs? I found it pretty entertaining. It's about a German professor of Portuguese named Professor Dr von Igelfeld which is already funny if you speak German. I liked it so I read the next two: At the Villa of Reduced Circumstances and The Finer Points of Sausage Dogs, also worthy titles. I thought they were hysterical. I could be just me though.

I enjoyed the Ladies Detective Agency books more for the commentary on human nature and the occasionally hilarious thought processes of Precious. My favorite one of that series was Morality for Beautiful Girls.
I have also read some of the Isabel Dalhousie series, but I don't like it as well.

His books are undemanding, fairly quiet, but sometimes funny. I find it fascinating that most of his main characters are female. Excepting, of course, Herr Professor Dr. von Igelfeld. Perhaps it's just his titles that I love. Browse a list of titles. I would totally want to be the author of a book called The Unbearable Lightness of Scones.

Book #123
The Reptile Room

The second book in the series is quite as entertaining and quite as disturbing as the first. Since I happen to have a zoology degree, I enjoyed the herpetology references very much. We are listening to these in the car during school carpool, and I asked the kids when we finished if we should listen to something else now, and they said no, they wanted to listen to ALL 13 books in the series. I ask you...

>>32 nittnut: - beware of the two titles narrated by the author - they were early in the series - and were awful. Tim Curry was awesome. I think Miserable Mill was an author narrated one. Eventually Harper Collins Audio realized the mistake and brought Curry back to finish the series.

>>32 nittnut: - I'm not much of a McCall Smith fan, but I did like Irregular Verbs. My wife really likes the 44 Scotland Street series.

BTW - 2 more postcards in the mail this week - this time from Michigan.

#33 - Thanks for the postcards, and for the narrator alert. A terrible narrator is a terrible thing. Tim Curry can really do Mr. Poe's nasty cough. Every time I think I'm going to be sick.

I haven't read any McCall Smith yet but am loving the titles so may try it soon. The La's Orchestra Saves the World really appeals as I love reading books about how people coped or picked themselves up after a war. The premise almost reminds me of The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society book. Another odd title too.

Hi Kiwi! I think La's Orchestra was a bit like Guernsey, which I also liked very much. I really love books about England during WWII. I think for the most part they are amazingly positive and upbeat, without being in denial, or something like that.
I don't usually choose books for cover art, but a clever title will get me every time.

Book #124
The Smell of Old Lady Perfume

This book was recommended to me indirectly by the author, who requested to become friends on Goodreads. I kind of wonder if it was due to my review of Esperanza Rising - if she was looking for people who like the genre. I think The Smell of Old Lady Perfume must be somewhat autobiographical. It felt very personal.

The story is told in the voice of Chela, the daughter of Mexican immigrants who is about to start 6th grade. She is excited about 6th grade, hoping to be popular. On the first day of school, everything changes. Her world becomes a little bit less safe, and she has to grow up more than her peers. Throughout the year, she struggles with friendships, being excluded and bullied (I so related to this part of the story) and learns to cope with the help of her father. She is a real Daddy's girl, which I also related to. Finally, she must learn to stand on her own and look ahead to the future with hope, remembering all she has been taught.

Quote:

That night the universe was dark, even with a sliver of moon and my small beam. I read until my heavy eyelids pulled me somewhere else. I was halfway finished when I carried it into the bathroom in the morning to brush my teeth. I walked with it in one hand and my toothbrush in the other. "Reading is good. That book can be your new best friend," Apa said.

Hi Jenn, Several months ago I received a copy of La's Orchestra Saves the World in the mail (a contest win or something). I'm glad to see you enjoyed it. My only experience with McCall Smith is the first two books in the 44 Scotland Street series (which were entertaining).

Oh and I did like the #1 Ladies Detective Series on HBO.

Jenn

A zoology degree sounds most impressive...and difficult to obtain.

Kudos to you.

The Reptile Room is now on the list of books to read.

Hi Joanne!

Hi Linda. My degree was challenging, but so interesting and lots of fun.
I hope you enjoy The Reptile Room. We listened to the audio, excellently read by Tim Curry.

Boy you're reading a lot of books! I enjoy your blurbs :) -- and the responses to them!!

Book #125
Nefertiti

For a book casually picked up at Target, this was surprisingly good. It is the story of the marriage and rise to power of Nefertiti, a bit of the history of her family and its connection to the throne of Egypt, and a look into life in ancient Egypt. The story is told from the point of view of Nefertiti's half-sister. Full of intrigue, jealousy and everything you would expect from Pharaoh's court. In the Epilogue, Moran explains her research and where she deviates from the historical record, which I appreciated.

#41: I will have to give that one a try. Thanks for the recommendation, Jenn!

That one looks very intriguing. I love egyptology and wear a cartouche around my neck every day with my name in hieroglyphics which my father bought for me when he worked in the Sinai desert. I treasure it.

Hi Kiwi - what a neat souvenir to have. What did your father do for work to end up in the Sinai? If you read it you will have to let me know what you think. I have not read too much Egyptian history, so I would have a hard time knowing how well researched the book was. Like I said, I really appreciated her notes at the end letting me know where she took creative license.

There is a Multi-National Forces and Observers peace-keeping corp in the Sinai desert, or there was 20 years ago, and my Dad was commander of the New Zealand contingent for a while. Military groups mostly from about 20 different countries. Sounded like really interesting work for the time he was there.

That does sound interesting. I imagine he has some good stories.

#41, Michelle's a friend of mine, so I'm glad you liked the book! I think her first two -- this, and The Heretic Queen -- are the best so far; Cleopatra's Daughter is good as well, but more of a YA crossover. Her new book will be out in the spring -- it will be completely different, about Mme Tussaud.

Good to know! I will definitely be interested in reading more of her books. I thought she did a great job with character development. I definitely engaged with the characters in Nefertiti.

Book # 126
Everyone She Loved

I had a hard time with this book. The premise is interesting. A man, married to Penelope, the heiress to a large fortune, is convinced to sign a codicil to her will that he will seek the approval of her four best friends before re-marrying in the even of her untimely death. Obviously the drama and conflict possible in such a situation is immeasurable.
A lot of time is spent introducing each friend, describing her connection to the family and her life/marriage/relationship with Penelope. Of course, the untimely death occurs and the majority of the story wallows in grief and pain as felt by each friend and family member. The grief issues naturally prevent clear communication and logical thinking, which leads to more grief. This was a struggle. The story dragged quite a bit. Grief, pain, yes. 300 pages of it, no.
I did like the discussion of eating disorders, but felt that the treatment aspect was dealt with inappropriately. While adding psychological drama to the storyline, it probably would not be helpful to someone actually dealing with a similar issue.
Worst part - a sex scene in which 3 of the most derogatory terms used in describing male anatomy were used in the same paragraph. Ahem. Distracting, crude and annoying. The development of a relationship between the two characters was something I had hoped for, but its treatment left a lot to be desired.
I finished, but I didn't love it. As Stasia says, guardedly recommended.

ETA - grammar

#49: I think I will bypass that one. I hope you enjoy your next read more, Jenn!

Hi Stasia! I should - I am starting Kristin Lavansdatter tonight. :)

#51: Cool! I think I will be waiting until next year for that one. I cannot wait to see what you think of it though.

OK, so I was just notified that I snagged an ER book from the September batch. I have absolutely NO memory of requesting any. I still haven't read the one I snagged in July...

Book #127
Into the Wild

This was not on my list but... I picked up a box of books from friend yesterday for Operation Paperback. Then I ended up waiting outside my son's haircut, the library, various other places. So, I rummaged through the box, and this was the book I chose. I read Into Thin Air a few years ago and liked it.
It was interesting, to a point. I am not entirely sure I agree that this story rates more than a magazine article, but to each his own. It is semi-biographical and tells the story of a young man who chooses to leave his family and the comforts of modern life to wander in the wilderness. This choice culminates in his starving to death in Alaska, not very far from assistance, due to bad planning and a series of bad decisions. Krakauer finds a lot of excuses for him, some of which may be valid. It was difficult for me to relate, not being the leave the comforts of civilization type. At least, if I am leaving the comforts, say to camp in the Alaskan wilderness, I would take a map, a GPS, some food, and maybe have someone check on me if I don't show up by a certain time...

Haven't read the book but the movie 'Into the Wild' is very very good. After watching it, I don't feel like I need to read the book version and I never say that normally, as a rule.

#54: I think that of the two books, Into Thin Air is the better read, but that is just me.

Stopping by to wave hi.

I agree -- I don't think I could read the book -- the movie was very eloquent and managed to be extremely sad but somehow the way it had to be..... quite an achievement.

Hi Linda. Thanks for stopping by.

Kiwi and sib - I will have to try the movie. Sometimes for a story like this, a movie works better. The book was just OK for me. It may be just because I don't love Krakauer. Or because I just didn't relate to McCandless at all.

Stasia, I agree, Into Thin Air was a much better read for me.

Book #128
Johnny Tremain

Just as good as I remember.
The Newbery Award winning story of a young boy, growing into a man at the start of the Revolutionary war. It is about discovering who you are, who you want to be, and who you don't want to be. It's about the courage of conviction and being willing to stand up for what is right even if it may cost you everything.

Long but Great Quotes:

James Otis was on his feet, his head close against the rafters that cut down into the attic, making it the shape of a tent. Otis put out his arms.
'It is all so much simpler than you think,' he said. He lifted his hands and pushed against the rafters.
'We give all we have, lives, property, safety, skills...we fight. we die, for a simple thing. Only that a man can stand up.'

Johnny stood upon the Green and looked about him. He heard a woman calling, 'Chick, chick, chick.' From a near-by cow shed he heard milk spurting into a pail. A tap of metal on metal; his trained ear told him a gunsmith was at work.
He could smell turned earth and gummy buds. and sweet wood somewhere burning. His nostrils trembled. Almost could they recapture the gunpowder of yesterday. So fair a day now drawing to its close. Green with spring, dreaming of the future yet wet with blood.
This was his land and these his people.

Everywhere else in the village was silence. The music, small as the chirping of a cricket, filled that silence. Down the road came twenty or thirty tired and ragged men. Some were blood-stained. No uniforms. A curious arsenal of weapons. The long horizontal light of the sinking sun struck into their faces and made them seem much alike. Thin-faced in the manner of Yankee men. High cheek-boned. Unalterably determined. The tired men marched unevenly, but Johnny noticed the swing of the lithe, independent bodies. The set of chin and shoulders, Rab had been like that.
Please God, out of this New England soil such men would forever rise up ready to fight when need came. The one generation after the other."

Book #129
The Wreath

I'm not going to say much here because it's only book 1 and others are planning to read it.
I found it both compelling and frustrating. Partly it is due to the Middle Ages. To be a woman in the Middle Ages is nearly the worst fate I can imagine. Women are necessary to the successful function of any farm or household, but are treated as chattel or property. This, along with the extreme religiosity without benefit of scientific enlightenment is a dire combination.
I will be taking a small break and then diving into book 2.

Hi Jenn,

I read Books 1 and 2 of Kristin Lavransdatter with a book group about 5 years ago and am glad I read them but they were hard to get through at times. Sometimes it was the writing; sometimes the story that didn't do much for me. But I have remembered those books and want to read the 3rd one at some point. I agree with you about the way women were treated in the Middle Ages. Also, just life in the Middle Ages in general was tough and especially in Norway in the winter!

Yes -- you know I never finished -- never read the third one. Maybe LT will get me back on track. Yes, life in the MA was something we can't imagine, not really. I am so grateful to be born now -

Jenn

I am on a quest to read all the Newbery medal and honor books. I am also trying to purchase all of them. I was able to obtain a copy of Johnny Tremain at the local library sale.

I'll read this one as my next Newbery book.

Thanks for your excellent review.

Hi Pat - yes, centrally heated in Colorado in the winter is enough for me, thank you very much.

Hi Lucy - LT gets me off track most of the time, distracted by reviews of so many fascinating books...

I am so grateful to be born now. I remember when my husband was in grad. school at Berkeley, I joined a book group. I was probably the youngest member at 21, the oldest was 92. We read a book about the Donner Party one month. At book club we all went around and said the thing we were most grateful for in terms of modern conveniences. We all talked about phones, computers, airplanes, cars, then the 92 year old lady said "toilet paper" and we all just sat there quietly, thinking how much we love toilet paper.

Hi Linda! How great to own all the Newbery medal AND honor books! Wow. I hope you enjoy Johnny Tremain.

I'll be definitely looking out for Johnny Tremain but while I find the other one interesting, my TBR pile says no more.

I suspect that I will never reread the K.Lavransdatter trilogy, but I remember enjoying every one of them even when the going got tough. I found The Cross particularly moving, and now that I'm an older woman, it's the one that I should read again. So - maybe.......

Book #130
Flipped

YA - A really fun read. A story of adolescent true love and really knowing someone. Point of view alternates between the boy and the girl. It is really well done - illustrating the differences between how girls and boys view the world around them without being derogatory to either gender. It is pretty true to form - at least from what I remember of Jr. High (wouldn't repeat it for millions). The story also illustrates the development of a more adult relationship between the adolescent children and their parents - the children seeing the good and bad sides of their parents' characters and realizing they can choose the traits to emulate and the traits to discard.

I agree with you regarding not wanting to repeat Jr. High. We moved around a lot. Way too many times I was the new kid on the block. Jr. high was painful. I didn't know a soul. And, girls can be so darn catty and nasty. I was shy, introverted and felt like a walking, nagging tooth ache.

68,69 - Wow, and here I thought it was just me! (who had a horrible Jr High experience)

I'm sorry to hear you gals had a bad Jr High experience. I loved my schooling years even if my grades didn't always reflect that joyous experience.. haha.

7,8,9 grade were all unrelievedly horrible for me from the social angle -- long boring story involving my mother's remarriage to someone I disliked who returned the sentiment, a move to a very rural place and an insanely long commute into a small private school in a snooty suburb, oh it was just uh, character building in the extreme. then I went to a very good boarding school in 10th and was fine.

For me 7th grade and part of 8th was a total nightmare. I went to a huge Jr. High. I was bullied by a couple of obnoxious goth girls who took exception to my rosy cheeked good girlishness. I was very happy when my parents moved us to a new town and teensy school before the end of 8th grade. There it was a different scenario - 9 boys 24 girls - I chose to deny any interest in any of the boys, if you know what I mean. I got by pretty well there.

Hey, Jenn! Just waving as I head through the threads.

I will be reading the Kristin Lavransdatter trilogy next year I expect. I picked up a copy while I was in NY.

Nothing to add - just a hello!

Book #131
The Mysterious Benedict Society

A slightly different take on a children's adventure story. Children are sent into a dangerous situation by an adult. Their mission is to stop an evil mastermind from taking over the world. In order to be successful, they must learn to work together and face their fears.

Book #132
Bud, Not Buddy

Newbery Award winner. A young boy who has been living in an orphanage/foster care since his mother died decides to go and find his father. He finds something different from what he expected. A heart warming tale of struggle, perseverance and love.

I hope you'll say something about The Mysterious Benedict Society in the old-fashioned children's story sub-thread. I'm particularly interested because this one *doesn't* sound very old-fashioned, and I'd like to hear about what elements it shares with some of the more standard stories. Plus I have the book out from the library myself right now, so any discussion of it would be good.

No pressure, of course ;)

LOL - I agree - I would not like to eliminate this option from the old-fashioned type stories, but I think it is a dodgy fit.

I will have to think about it a bit before I comment, but I will. I also don't want to spoil anyone's read.

#76: I have already read The Mysterious Benedict Society, but have never even heard of Bud, Not Buddy, so I will check that one out. Thanks for the recommendation, Jenn!

#76 - Jenn - I've looked at The Mysterious Benedict Society a few times at the bookstore, but thought it might be a little old for my boys (and a little long for a read-aloud). What ages do you think it might work best for?

>78 nittnut: Well, it must have at least something in common with The Willoughbys to be included on the recommendation list. It wouldn't be any fun if all the connections were obvious ;)

Jen
I'm stopping by to thank you for recommending Where the Mountain Meets the Moon. Both you and Kerry liked this book. I finished it today and loved it!

Hi Amy. The Mysterious Benedict Society is really long. I agree, too long for a read-aloud. I listened to it on CD in the car and while working in my studio. It took me about 2 weeks. Ages - probably independent readers 5th grade and up. Just my opinion. I did enjoy it though, and so did my 6th grader.

True Zoe. True.

Hi Linda! I am so glad you enjoyed Where the Mountain Meets the Moon. I think it is one of my favorite reads this year.

Joining the school misery saga...

1973 -- School 1 then School 2 in London (changed schools after 11+ exams)
1974 -- School 1 in Ottawa, then school 2 in Ottawa (moved to Canada, changed schools for bilingual program)
1975 -- School 2 in Ottawa, then school 3 in Ottawa (moved to HS for grade 9)
1976 -- School 3 in Ottawa, followed by school in Belgium (moved to Brussels.)

Six schools in four years, ages 11 to 14. No wonder I'm still a mess!

It was in the 1974 period that I ran across Johnny Tremain at a library sale, though!

Hi Suzanne. I'm happy you at least got to read Johnny Tremain. There's a bright spot. Changing schools often is hard, but worse at a certain age, isn't it? 6 schools in 4 years is incredible.

Book #133
Needles and Pearls

A bit of a waste in some ways - I think I'm done with this author. I liked the story and the characters, but the whole book was ruined by the language. I know I don't have a huge representative sample of British friends, but nobody I know uses the f-word like punctuation or tells me to "piss off" on a regular basis just to be funny. So, whatever, I'm done.

#86: OK, I am skipping that one.

I hope you enjoy your next read tons more, Jenn!

Book #134
Chalice YA

I am a big fan of Robin McKinley, so I was excited to find this book that I had not read. It took a little while for me to engage with the story. The setting is just enough different from real - I think it took me about 1/4 of the story just to figure out where I was. After the death of their leader, a young girl is chosen for a prominent position, one that is vital to the survival of the land and the people who live there. She has no training and must rely on instinct and study to succeed. The new leader (Master) also struggles and they must rely on each other in spite of their limitations and inexperience. Once I figured out the lay of the land, so to speak, I really connected with the main characters and enjoyed the story.

Just popping in to say, "Hi, Jenn." I wonder whether any of you YA readers read Sandra Cisneros? I bought a copy of Caramelo and don't know whether to try it or just leave it on PBS. Any wisdom?

I haven't read it, but it sounds good from the reviews here on LT. I'd love to hear if anyone as read it as well.

#88: I have that one somewhere around my house to read. I am glad to see you enjoyed it, Jenn. I wonder where my copy is. . .

Hi Stasia. I bet it's under a pile of books...

I'm reading a fairy tale re-tell right now called Princess of the Midnight Ball. Anyone read that? I am liking it very much.

#92: Oh, I know it is under a pile of books. The question is, which one?

I have not read Princess of the Midnight Ball. I did read another of Day George's books Sun and Moon, Ice and Snow and liked it very much.

I have not read Sun and Moon, Ice and Snow. Naturally it goes into the pile. It sounds like an adaptation of East of the Sun, West of the Moon. A couple of years ago a friend gave me a copy of East which is a wonderful adaptation of the same fairy tale. Have you read it Stasia?

Those fairy tale retellings all look very good. I am interested in what you thought of the Mysterious Benedict Society book as my daughter has all three so far and loves them so they are just there for the reading.

#94: I have not yet read East. My local library has a copy supposedly, but it has been 'overdue' for quite a while now.

Book #135
Princess of the Midnight Ball YA

I am kind of on a young adult kick right now, and liking it. This is a faithful (but detailed) retelling of The Twelve Dancing Princesses. Very enjoyable.

OK, Needles and Pearls will go back to BookSwim unread...

#93, Stasia, close your eyes, spin in a circle, stop, and point at a pile. That's where it will be!

ETA re #97, I remember having a book that I loved, something like The Book of Princesses; it had all the classic tales in it including the 12 Dancing Princesses. Think it was a Puffin.

Hi Suzanne. I think I may have had the same book. Was it a big FAT book?

I have always loved fairy tales. I have enjoyed a lot of the re-tellings that have come out the last few (10) years.

*Picturing Stasia spinning around, getting dizzy and knocking down several piles of books and falling into them, then reading her way out. *

#98: That will not work - there is no room in my library for spinning around!

Book #136
Still Life

I would definitely like to visit Three Pines and eat in the cafe.

I enjoyed the mystery, the people, the characterization. I was disposed to think that the family with the name "Malenfant" would have to be guilty. Many people, histories, threads were intertwined but not lost. Penny clearly knows these people well. I am interested to learn if Nichol returns in the future as a problem for Gamache? Very enjoyable use of a day when I was supposed to be cleaning my basement...

Heh, heh, I loved Nichol too, she is so awful. No one in real life would put up with her, would they?

The scene where Nichol sees the note on the mirror - "you are looking at the problem" and she takes it so completely literally and starts looking around - that cracked me up.

Actually, I fear there are many people like her. I have a neighbor... we should have known when she moved into the neighborhood and told us that she thought everyone was so nice, that in previous neighborhoods she had always ended up having really difficult neighbors... she has alienated most of the neighbors here one by one. But it's never her. Nope. Never.

Jenn

It was FAMeulstee, (Anita) who directed me on the path of YA. Prior to reading her excellent reviews and comments,, I did not read this genre.

Now, I'm hooked. By the way Zoe, is a YA fan as well.

Welcome to Three Pines, Jenn!

Glad you are enjoying Three Pines, Jenn! Welcome to the bus. You have some more good reading ahead of you :)

Hi Linda, Joanne and Stasia! Nice to see you.

Passed the day lying around reading and napping while my little guy watches Charlie and the Chocolate Factory over and over and over... this headache just will not quit. How much Excedrin can a person take BTW? Purely a rhetorical question, but usually Excedrin does the job.

Book #137
The Girl She Used to Be

Pure fun. A girl in the witness protection program is located by the person they are supposedly hiding her from and they fall in love. Mostly what you'd expect, except when it's not. I only have a teensy beef with the way the federal marshals are portrayed as lame/bad/manipulative.

Book #138
Lady Susan

I have been listening to this during the week while working. A series of letters through which we get to know a group of people, mostly related to each other. Lady Susan (title character) is a vain and manipulative woman who cannot help but compete with her daughter for the attentions of men. She alienates her family and friends, but always finds a way to work things out in her favor (well, nearly always). This is the only Austen I had not read. Lots of fun.

#107: Adding The Girl She Used to Be to the BlackHole since I need some fun every now and again, right? I have already read Lady Susan.

Sorry to hear that your headache is not letting up, Jenn! I hope you have a jumbo size bottle of Excedrin.

>89 LizzieD: LizzieD, I enjoyed Caramelo when I read it a few years ago, though I wouldn't call it a YA book. I think Cisneros' The House on Mango Street is considered YA and is read in schools. Caramelo was chosen a few years back for Denver's 'One City One Book' program.

Those sound good Anne. I will have to add them to the list.

#99 -- actually, the one I'm thinking of was a reasonably thin paperback, no more than about 275 pages.

Re Three Pines & Nichol -- actually, her character is one that irritates me about the books. There are very few people that are that obtuse. I mentally compare the way Elizabeth George handles her character, Barbara Havers, to Louise Penny's handling of Nichol, and it's night and day. Both appear obnoxious to others, yet Havers is shown as a real person, not a caricature. We see why she can't seem to help herself, and even if we can't always like her, we wince when things go wrong for her and her judgment fails. I don't like two-dimensional characters, especially when everybody in the book loathes them. Reminds me of unpopular kids being bullied in middle school, with the author as one of the bullies.

I will have to read more about Three Pines and see, I guess. I thought that in the first book it was possible (early on) that she would be this young officer who would gradually become willing to learn and change. However, she remained so awful and so obtuse that by the end of the book I thought maybe in a future book she would become one of those examples of the impetus to commit murder occurring years before the actual murder - that Gamache might find her a real problem later.

Book #139
Every Last One

An extremely painful novel about family, love and loss. Also about survival and the regret of the survivor. The story is told from the point of view of the mother, her family through her eyes. It takes half the book to build up to the tragic event promised, and the rest of the book to address the grieving and coping and surviving. I may have rushed the first part a bit, hating the build up to what promised to be an awful event. I definitely rushed the rest, not wishing to wallow in pain. I did like the book. I'll give it three stars. I've read others by her that I liked much better. As always, Anna Quindlen's writing takes you places you don't necessarily want to go, but they are mostly worth visiting.

edited for spelling

wow.. some great book talk here....

I really disliked Agent Nichol in the beginning of the series, but as the books progressed and we found out more about her, she seemed to get more human to me - and less of a caricature. I mean, I still dislike her, but I feel I understand her a little better now. But who knows what Penny intends to do with Nichol in the long run? She could be used for good or evil I think...

Hi Jen
I also like the writing of Anna Quindlen. Every Last One sounds too sad for me right now, but perhaps later.

Waving hi to you! Happy Saturday!

You've been reading a bit, had to comment on Lady Susan as I also enjoyed that one even though Jane Austen abandoned it, deciding she didn't really like the letter format after all and it was never published. I think it was her first complete novel written, but I may be wrong there.

Have you read the two unfinished novels, Sandition and The Watsons? They are so promising, it's a shame they were never finished. The only thing she's written that I haven't yet read is her Juvenilia collection which I ordered 4 weeks ago and should arrive in a fortnight. Apparently it includes a lot of her early satirical works which I'm looking forward to.

Hi Linda, waving back! Every Last One was really sad. I've had a lovely day, did some volunteer work, then went shopping with my 6 yr old daughter. She has to choose her own clothes now or she won't wear them. It's good she has good taste (usually) and is fun to take shopping.

Hi Kiwi! How have you been?

I have read the unfinished novels and was really frustrated that they were not finished. However, I hope nobody finishes them, if you know what I mean.
You bring up something I had forgotten, I have not read the Juvenilia collection. I will look forward to learning what you think.

I've been overwhelmed at work but definitely better now, thanks for asking.

I had to laugh at your 6 year old daughter, mine were exactly the same at that age. I loved it when I could dress them with no little people opinions but that time has long passed. My 13 year old just throws on whatever but my 12 year old is little miss fashion and we have a few meltdowns a month over clothes. Thank God for school uniforms at least!

I will definitely let you know about Juvenilia, I think it had to be specially ordered from England hence the long wait but well worth it I'm hoping, and I absolutely agree with you about hoping nobody else finishes her unfinished work. That would be sacrilege. It is enough to read the promise contained within, we don't need to know of someone elses opinion of how they thought Austen would have written the rest of them.

Well, that's what I think at least.

I completely agree - both about Austen and school uniforms. I LOVE school uniforms. We are safe deciding what to wear. We still have the occasional "my sock is wrong" (think screaming child) mornings.

Book #140
The Eden Hunter

I don't know if I liked this book. I am not sorry I read it. The writing was good - the author made me see what he was writing. The story is based on real events. Other than the references to the war of 1812 and some slave rebellions, I am not sure what was real and what was not. A compelling and violent story told through an African Pygmy who is captured by slavers and brought to America. Eventually he escapes and sets out to find a place to live that is like his home in Africa. He is fairly impartial regarding the Americans, the different Indian tribes, the British and the Negro settlement he finds in Florida. His impartiality, seeing the good and the bad in every group keeps the perspective balanced for most of the story.

I remember hating school uniforms when I had to wear one (especially the "pudding basin" hats in winter), with the exception of the summer uniform, a grey and white striped cotton dress. But then we moved back to Canada, and I realized how useful they could be -- I had NO idea what I was supposed to be wearing and at the age of 12, wearing the wrong stuff was a bad move. I don't think I ever got the hang of fashion/trendiness!

Book #141
Whiter Than Snow

Another story dropped off by a friend. I have Prayers for Sale in my TBR pile, but I had not yet read anything by this author.

Set in a mining town in the mountains of Colorado in the late 1800's. The reader is introduced to residents of the town one by one, learning their story and their fatal flaw. There is a civil war veteran, a black man from the south, a prostitute, a wealthy but lonely woman, and others. All of them with a time when their lives went wrong. A terrible tragedy occurs, a massive avalanche, and changes their lives for better and worse. I didn't love it, but I can't really point to a reason. It was interesting, and the characters were real enough, but I guess I was waiting the whole time for the avalanche and just annoyed every time a new character's story started and still no avalanche. Can't say for sure.

#123: The only book of Dallas' that I have read is Tallgrass, which I enjoyed. It sounds as though I can give Whiter Than Snow a pass though.

Well, Stasia, I'd read a few reviews other than mine before I left it if I were you. I don't know if I just wasn't in the mood or what. I don't think it was badly written. In some parts, it was even inspiring. I just didn't really get into it.

The best things about a Sandra Dallas book is the setting in Colorado. Her books are easy to read and good "fillers" between meatier books. I enjoy them and will probably get around to Whiter than Snow at some point. Thanks, Jenn, I didn't realize she had a new book out.

Just a little humor for your day -

My daughter stayed home from school because when I took her out and put her in the carpool car, she threw her shoes back out the door. After I put her shoes back in the car, she threw her backpack out. Rather than make the carpool wait, I then took her out of the car. She is banished to her room until it's clean. At about 9 am my son called and said he had a terrible headache and needed to come home. So now everyone is home. Needless to say, my plans for the day will alter. No reading Dracula again.

>127 nittnut: Hi Jenn - by now, hopefully, your house has a clean bedroom and your son's headache is gone! :)

Since I've read all of Sandra Dallas' fiction, I guess you could say I'm a fan. Her books are comfort reads for me. But, that being said, Whiter Than Snow was my least favorite. Like you, I spent a lot of time wishing she'd just get on with it.

Hi Joanne. I'm glad it's not just me. It won't keep me from reading Prayers for Sale.

I am now vowing not to crack another book until I have finished Dracula. I am going to bed with Dracula now. Hmm. Well, maybe not. I just creeped myself out.

Is your daughter's bedroom clean yet? lol

Sounds as if you had an eventful day, Jenn. I hope tomorrow is better!

NO. She is the darndest kid. She stayed in her room for a very long time and did absolutely nothing. To get her room clean, I have to do it when she's gone, OR her father can clean it with her. He speaks her language. I am completely confounded. Love her to pieces though. I'm off to sleep. Big costume making day ahead tomorrow.

#131: He speaks her language. I am completely confounded. Love her to pieces though.

I have one of those too! I know how it goes.

Good luck with the costume making. Can't wait to see the results!

Oh wow, that all sounds familiar. Even down to the costume making. Good luck with that and hopefully your husband will speak the magic code for the bedroom. I haven't tackled Dracula yet so I'm eager to find out what you think of it when you're finished.

Book #142
The Slave Dancer

Another tick on my list of Newbery Award winners.

Although painful reading at times, this book is the beautifully written story of a 12 year old boy who is kidnapped by slavers and forced to play his fife to keep the slaves dancing on the long journey back from Africa. The story begins in New Orleans, takes us to Africa and back to New Orleans via Cuba and a shipwreck. I was impressed by a couple of things, one, that children are without prejudice unless taught it, that good people will remain good even in the worst circumstances and friends can be found in the most unexpected places.

#135: I went to add that one to the BlackHole only to discover it is already there. I guess I had better get around to it soon!

I bet your daughter can find whatever she wants in her bedroom though. ;-) I had a terribly messy (according to my mom) bedroom growing up, but I knew where everything was. There was a method to my messiness I guess. But if my mom came in and cleaned it, that was it ... I couldn't find a thing after that!

You're absolutely right Caroline - she can find anything she needs in there.

I just posted photos of my daughter's completed costume. I think it turned out great! Nosferatu is still a large confused pile of black satin and pattern paper. We'll see if we make sense of it today.
www.mylavenderave.blogspot.com.

She DOES look adorable...

Great outfit, I would wear that hair on a normal day not just Halloween. can't wait to see Nosferatu.

Book #143
Dracula

Talk about speeding toward destruction accompanied by an overwhelming sense of doom...
I liked the book. I don't know if I will ever read it again though. I alternated between thinking my head would explode if I had to read another page of Dr. Van Helsing, and thinking he was hysterical. It was especially good if I read it out loud to myself. My favorite was when he was describing talking to the sailors and ship captains with all the "blood" and "bloom." Very funny.
I found the Christian symbolism fascinating. There was so much more about purity and holiness and relying on God to battle evil.
The thing that bothered me the most was both with Lucy and then with Mina, these men who supposedly knew what was going on, were completely oblivious to the fact that their women were being assaulted. The creepiest part was the whole forced drinking of Dracula's blood. Ewwww.

#141: I just finished up Dracula too, Jenn. I read The New Annotated Dracula version and found it very interesting.

An annotated version would be interesting. There is so much that I miss - I am not a very analytical reader.

Going back to sleep for a bit...

#143: I am not a very analytical reader.

Neither am I.

I know, I agree, I thought the men in Dracula were a little bit slow on the uptake...but overall I liked the book. :)

Book #144
Becoming Naomi Leon

Pam Munoz Ryan is my newest favorite author. This is the second of her books that I have read and I loved it. Becoming Naomi Leon is the story of two children, Naomi and Owen, who were left with their great grandmother when they were very young. Seven years later, she comes back into their lives. Told from Naomi's point of view, the reader experiences her feelings of loss, abandonment, worry and hope as she struggles through a difficult experience. The story broke my heart and then filled me with happiness, then broke my heart again, over and over. Overall, I was left with a feeling that even if children can't have their parents (or their parents can't have them), if they have a group of people who become their family, who love them with all their hearts, those children have a chance.

ETA: I listened to this on audio while working on Halloween costumes. 4 discs, great narrator.

AWESOME costumes! That brain hat is a winner - from a fellow knitter.

Love the costumes Jenn! You're so talented.

I love the brain hat .... I would definitely wear that to work during meetings! ;-) So do you need a pattern for that, or can you create that on your own? My mom taught me how to knit and I used to enjoy that when I was younger, but I need to follow patterns and I was still lousy at it anyway. All my stitches were uneven.

Hi Peggy, Joanne and Caroline!

Thanks! I think making my kids' costumes is the best part of Halloween. Well, that and raiding their candy.

Caroline, PM me your address and I will send it to you after Halloween. I dare you to wear it to a meeting :). Maybe in Japan?
I am a pattern person, mostly. There are some things that I can do without a pattern, but even hats I've made over and over I will mess up if I don't look at the pattern when I decrease or something. I knit or crochet to relax, and you can always tell if I've had a stressful day because I have to pull out several rows of very tight stitches and start again.

I am nearly finished with Nosferatu. Hopefully I can give you an update tomorrow. It's been a fun one.

You're on, Jenn! ;-) I'll make sure someone takes a photo and I'll post it as proof.

Book #145
Where the Lilies Bloom

A very fast read. I enjoyed it. Interesting information about "wildcrafting" which I had not realized was such a cottage industry in some places.

Book #146
A Single Shard

Another book for my Newbery Awards list. I loved, loved, loved it. It is set in Korea and is the story of a young orphaned boy who is taken in by a homeless man and they become friends. They survive by scavenging in rubbish heaps and gleaning fields and foraging. They refuse to steal or beg. The story is a sort of parable about working hard and being honest, and having the courage to continue in spite of the odds being against you.

ooh, I like the sound of that one, thanks for the heads up.

Me, too. How wonderful that there's such great literature out there for children (and us!)

#153: Into the BlackHole it goes! Thanks, Jenn.

Hi Kiwi, Anne and Stasia! I hope you enjoy it.

Book #147
The Tenderness of Wolves

More of a mystery story with historical novel included than anything, with many characters and many threads to keep track of. For the most part I liked it. I believe it is the author's first novel. Set in Canada in the 1860's in winter. A man is murdered and a young man who disappears at the same time is suspected. His mother sets out with an unlikely guide to try and find him. The best and worst of humanity are encountered along the way. I would have liked a little more development of several characters. I think Mrs. Ross and her story needed some filling out, as well as Mr. Ross who remains an enigma after nearly 400 pages. Still thinking about the title. Clearly people are being compared to wolves, how successfully, I'm not sure. Three stars.

Book #148
The Flawless Skin of Ugly People

This was a surprisingly good read. The story is told from an unusual point of view. At least, I don't think I have read this particular voice before. The narrator is a 38 year old man who has suffered from acne vulgaris for most of his life. He and his wife were abused by a deacon at their church when they were young. They both have serious issues relating to this abuse, but the book deals with the issues and the healing process rather than the abuse. What stood out to me is the idea implied by the title - that the condition of the skin you live in is not necessarily indicative of the inner person. Also, the incredible love that this man has for his wife, who is absent for most of the story. I finished with a sense of hope. A sense that no matter what our struggles are, with enough patience and love, we can heal. Some language, but manageable. A quick read.

Great review, will watch out for that one. It does sound like an unusual narrator character.

Hi Kiwi! Hope all is well in your corner of the world.

I am starting a big read - The Complete Short Stories of Ernest Hemingway. I could not say whether I will actually finish them for the TIOLI "Nobel Laureate" challenge this month. It's a big book. I want to make a note of my impressions as I go here, so I remember. Regard or disregard as you wish.

1. The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber
A brutal story of courage and cowardice, and of coming of age, when the coming of age changes everything and ultimately leads to disaster.
Quotes:
Francis Macomber was very tall, very well built if you did not mind that length of bone, dark, his hair cropped like an oarsman, rather thin-lipped, and was considered handsome. He was dressed in the same sort of safari clothes that Wilson wore except that his were new, he was thirty-five years old, kept himself very fit, was good at court games, had a number of big-game fishing records, and had just shown himself, very publicly, to be a coward.

They are, he thought, the hardest in the world; the hardest, the cruelest, the most predatory and the most attractive and their men have softened or gone to pieces nervously as they have hardened. Or is it that they pick men they can handle? They can't know that much at the age they marry, he thought. He was grateful that he had gone through his education on American women before now because this was a very attractive one.

#159: Adding that one to the BlackHole! Thanks for the recommendation, Jenn.

#161: In case you did not realize it, Darryl is extending the Nobel Laureate challenge for this month into December as well. I am very grateful for that! lol

Jenn, I like your musings on, and quotes of, Hemingway. I'm taking a course on For Whom the Bell Tolls starting next week and it's good to see some of his other writing. Other than reading The Old Man and the Sea in high school, I haven't read anything by him.

OH good! Stasia. I just don't know if I'm going to get through 650 pp of Hemingway short stories before the end of the month.

Pat, I would love to hear about your course. I have read For Whom the Bell Tolls, The Sun Also Rises and an assortment of short stories, but I've always wanted to read more.

Oh good, Jenn I'm glad you like The Flawless SKin of Ugly People ... I thought it sounded interesting and have it in my TBR Tower. I may have to bump this up a step or 3.

Yep - bump it up. I want to talk about it.

More short stories from Hemingway:

2. The Capital of the World
Fear. Illusion and disillusion. The courage and fearlessness of youth. Accidents that happen due to the courage and fearlessness of youth. A little bit about bull fighting and bull fighters. What happens to men when they feel like failures. Undercurrents of the communist movement.

Quote: this one just amused me, no other reason.
"You are a good comrade," said the tall waiter. "But you lack all ideology."
"Mejor si me falta eso que el otro," said the older waiter (meaning it is better to lack that than work). "Go on to the mitin."

3. The Snows of Kilimanjaro
The things you think about when you know you are going to die - they seem to depend very much on the kind of person you are, the life you have lived. Regret and sorrow are a large part of this story. I had read this before, but was clearly too young at the time. I have a lot more compassion for the dying man this time around.

Quote:
He had been contemptuous of those who wrecked. You did not have to like it because you understood it. He could beat anything, he thought, because no thing could hurt him if he did not care.

4. Old Man at the Bridge
Casualties of war - refugees and their state of mind - esp. the elderly. They come so far from home and they can't go further, don't know what to do, and stop. Sad story.

5. Up in Michigan
Love, the hope of love, miscommunication, disillusionment and loss.

Quote:
One day she found that she liked it the way the hair was black on his arms and how white they were above the tanned line when he washed up in the washbasin outside the house. Liking that made her feel funny.

Book #149
Frederica

A re-read. When I need a vacation from life, etc. I always go to Georgette Heyer. Frederica is one of my favorites. It is laugh-out-loud funny in parts. Great lazy Saturday read.

Nice! Sounds just about perfect. I've never read Georgette Heyer, but need to remedy that!

#167: Thanks for sharing the Hemingway quotes.

#168: Frederica was one of the first (if not the first) of the Heyer romances I have read. I need to read more of them. Thanks for the reminder, Jenn!

I've listed that one, especially as I recognise the author as listed at the back of Miss Pettigrew in other Persephone books classics. Now I'm really intrigued.

Enjoying the Hemingway posts -- I remember after a while getting lulled into seeing (hearing?) things his way..... You want to make fun of his style sometimes, but then you realize how powerful it is.

What kills me about Hemingway is his ability to put an entire lifetime of feelings (usually not happy ones) into a 2-3 page story. Amazing.

Enjoying the Hemingway posts -- I remember after a while getting lulled into seeing (hearing?) things his way..... You want to make fun of his style sometimes, but then you realize how powerful it is.

I'm also enjoying the comments, Jenn. I'm about 130 pages into For Whom the Bell Tolls and just starting to get into it. His style has taken awhile to get used to--so glad I'm not the only one, Lucy!

Also enjoying the Hemingway posts, never read anything of his yet but I've got For Whom the Bell Tolls which will probably be read next year so now I'm a bit more aware of what I'm in for.

Always love Frederica!

Hi Jenn, I've got some Hemingway's lying around the house but the only one I've read is The Old Man and the Sea. I never felt the need to read any further.

Book #150
The Devil in the White City
This book was both fascinating and disturbing. The jumping back and forth between the highly stressful creation of the world's fair and the psychopathic activities of H.H. Holmes probably increased my sense of discomfort.
I was amazed at the success of the fair. I had no idea it was created on such a large scale in such a short period of time. It was interesting to read about all the architects and engineers and others who were involved, and to recognize many of the buildings and things they created during their careers.
Holmes - yuck. It kind of makes you paranoid about your neighbors. I hope I get over it soon.

#178: 150, Jenn! Way to go.

I love Larson's books and Devil in the White City is no exception.

Just checking in.. I agree with your thoughts on book 150... but it was a very good read.

congrats on 150, btw :)

Your review has me going back and forth between yes or no for the TBR list. The book does look very good and the history of the World Fair is very interesting to me. The yuck Holmes bit, hmm, I quite like my neighbours.

179-180 - Thanks! I thought I had a good read for #150 too. I will have to read more by Larson.

LOL Kiwi - I quite like my neighbors too. It's just creepy to read about a psychopath who is getting away with murder over a number of years and nobody really notices. The book is well written, and the Holmes - yuck bits are not terribly graphic - just as disturbing as you would expect for a serial killer.

Book #151
Powder and Patch

A young man - rebuffed by the girl he loves - sets off for France to transform himself into a smooth and elegant society man. Very entertaining period piece (Georgian).

I haven't read anything by Heyer yet ... your reviews make them sound fun. I think I'll have to try one. Which would you recommend I try first, Jenn?

Glad you liked The Devil in the White City for the most part, Jenn. I ran out and bought it a few months ago after reading alot of positive reviews of it here on LT. Congratulations on 150!!

Caroline - I love converting people to Heyer. I hope you enjoy.
It depends on whether you're in the mood for more romance or more romp. They are all romances in general, but not like modern ones. Some are more comedic than others.

For comedic: Frederica, The Talisman Ring or my first The Masqueraders
For good romance laced with witty repartee, The Nonesuch, Arabella, Bath Tangle

As long as you stay away from her mysteries IMHO, you really can't go wrong.

Enjoy!

Book #152
The Pleasure Seekers

This is the ER book that I received as a surprise - didn't remember requesting any books at all that particular month. I had sworn off ER books because they had been generally mediocre, at best. This was a lovely surprise.

It is set mostly in Madras, India and spans about thirty years. A young Gujerati man studying abroad in England meets a Welsh girl. They fall deeply in love. How they keep their love strong and stay happy in spite of the odds against them, how they inspire family members with a desire for a similar love, how they do their best to raise their daughters to be happy. Mostly about real family life with its sadness, happiness, and challenges. I really liked it.One of the things I liked best is that in spite of their unique challenge, a mixed marriage, their lives felt familiar. Their struggles are not unique to them, they are the struggles of every family in every country.
A quote that sums up the book very well for me is from Babo, on the eve of his eldest daughter's wedding.
"It's not what you think. It's not that I don't want them to go away from home and find love, live their lives as fully as they possibly can. It's not even that I want them to remain eternally innocent. But what I want, what I really want to know is what I'm supposed to do with the space they leave behind? What am I supposed to fill it with?"
"You fill it with love," Ba murmured. "Like you have always filled it. With love and more love."

Jenn, that's a great review and it sounds like a wonderful book. I'm off to put it on my wishlist. Thanks for the recommendation--so glad you ended up getting the book (even if you weren't expecting it).

#187: I bought that one recently - before the book buying ban - so I need to get to it! Thanks for the reminder, Jenn.

My fave Heyers are Lady of Quality, Frederica, The Nonesuch, The Grand Sophy and Venetia.

I remember reading Hemingway's short stories in my junior year of HS, and indeed, can see the big fat volume on a shelf from where I'm sitting in bed! Also read The Sun Also Rises that year, but never got to For Whom the Bell Tolls, so maybe that should be my December Nobel laureae read? I do remember in The Sun Also Rises that there was an incredibly vivid descriptive passage, when the group of friends are traveling by bus from France into Spain, of the landscape and being part of the landscape, that has stayed with me ever since I first read it...

#187 I like the sound of that one! Adding to the wishlist...

Book #153
Ever

This is a book that has been on my shelf for quite awhile. I have mixed feelings about Gail Carson Levine. I really liked Ella Enchanted and really didn't like Fairest very well. Anyway, this was different from her sort of fairy tale re-tellings. Ever is about a boy-god who falls in love with a mortal, and the trials they must endure to earn the opportunity to be together. It is loosely derived from Mesopotamian mythology and an Old Testament story that Levine read. I like the imagery and the way the story switches back and forth between the male and female characters. I also liked the way Levine introduces the conflict between "real" gods and a difficult to find, arbitrary, perhaps man-invented god. YA, easy read, interesting.

Hi Pat and Stasia, I hope you enjoy.

Hi Suzanne - I love Lady of Quality. I haven't read that one in awhile. I was so happy when the reprints came out from Sourcebooks in more period style covers stead of those skanky mass market paperbacks. Heyer deserves better. So pedantic of me, but I gave the nice young man in Barnes and Noble an earful a few years ago when he helped me find Heyer in Romance. At least at my local independent they are shelved in literature.

I remember really liking For Whom the Bell Tolls. I read it the first time in high school after studying John Donne in my English class. I think Hemingway did more for my understanding of Donne than my English teacher.

The Pleasure Seekers looks like a good read. Thanks for the recommendation, Jenn!

Jenn, are you reading The Lacuna now? I just finished and am awed by Kingsolver's fine writing. Want to toss an idea to me or catch one? (I was reflecting on his relationships with women - so much more enduring and deeper than his relationships with most of the men in his life. I found that interesting in the light of his sexual orientation.)

Hey Peggy! I haven't started it yet, but it's next on my list. I am intrigued... I'll get back to you in a day or two.

Book #154
American on Purpose

I really had fun listening to Craig Ferguson read his own memoir. Except for the excessive use of the f-word and the pretty poor condition of some of the discs. I think I missed both divorces due to skipping. Anyway, his story is very interesting, and I have a lot more respect for him, knowing what he has overcome. To be honest, I was completely entranced by the accent. Good grief. I'd better never go to Scotland on my own. Three stars because of the language issues, but really a very entertaining and fascinating story.

#192: I will look for that one.

#196: Already in the BlackHole. If you had language issues with it, I am sure I will as well, so I appreciate the heads up, Jenn.

I do have to read that one , darn it.. or maybe listen.. either way..

You have read some good books recently and I think I have just wishlisted most of them.

Hooray! Happy to add to your reading list. I will like to hear what you think.

I am suspending all current books in order to read HP #7 prior to seeing the movie this weekend.

Jenn

I saw Craig Ferguson on a comedy show. He was really very funny. I agree with you re. language issues. Why oh why do comedians who are naturally witty and intelligent feel that they have to smut the routine or book with vulgarity? I'm thinking of Robin Williams in particular.

Hi Linda! How are you?

I know - it makes me sad - I like to laugh. It's hard to laugh when the language is bad. Maybe I live in a strange little corner of the world, but the people I hang out with don't use vulgar language, as a rule.

Amazing, my language has cleaned up a lot since doing tv/radio for my book promo. That said, I live in NY. That has tended to dull my ear to a lot of it... When used on occasion, it can be effective or even appropriate -- there are some things that just NEED to be described as being BS. I get very weary of using the F-word as noun, adjective, adverb, verb, etc. etc. all in the same sentence. Shows a lack of imagination and vocabulary that bothers me more than the word does. The funniest people are those that know how to use language well.

I agree Suzanne. I can deal with the lesser forms like BS - crude vs. vulgar? The F-word as the all purpose adverb really makes me nuts. We were at a baseball game this summer with our kids, and all these nicely dressed young professionals were sitting behind us, and I think the f-word was about every 2 words. The few who weren't so drunk recognized the "eye" when I gave it to them, which helped a little.
Like it or not, the language we use is a large part of the perception others have of us. IMHO.

Book #155
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows

Just finished my re-read in preparation for the movie this weekend. We are not usually opening night movie-goers, but we are going. My 6th grader requested this as his reward for actually turning in all his school assignments on time for two weeks straight. It's been challenging, but I believe (1 day left) we shall manage it.

I am glad I re-read. I had forgotten many things. I definitely like it better than 5 and 6.

Book #156
Hannah's List

About a man who has lost his wife to cancer and how he learns to love again. It was just OK for me. I have enjoyed the Blossom Street books about the ladies who knit, but this one seemed too contrived. It was also painful. I lost a friend to cancer a little over a year ago and the last time we were together she was talking to me about telling her husband she wanted him to marry again and how hard it was.

I think I feel the same way, wanting my husband to marry again, but... I always tell him to marry again if I die, but make sure she loves my kids like her own or I'll be back to haunt them.

#205: Have a great time at the movie, Jenn!

#206: I think I will pass on that one.

Go to YouTube and look up the Craig Ferguson / Hugh Laurie interviews... lol

I want to see Harry Potter too.. doubt if I will go this weekend...but I do want to see it.

Book #157
My Name is Memory

I really liked this story. My feeling about half way through was that this was the story I had hoped The Time Traveler's Wife would be.

It is a story of two people, Daniel and Sophia, whose souls reincarnate again and again. They are linked but only Daniel remembers who they are. Over the course of many lives they come closer and closer to each other.

Happy Thanksgiving Jen! I am blessed by you!

Happy Thanksgiving, Jenn. I took your Heyer recommendations and I'm ordering one of each ... Masqueraders and The Nonesuch from Amazon.

Have a happy Thanksgiving, Jenn. I assume your meal will be amazing.

Thanks ladies! I wish you a happy day and good food as well. I am making my apple and pecan pies right now - or I will be in a minute.

I hope you enjoy Heyer, Caroline! I am posting your "hat" next week. It got under a pile, but I've found it now.

Have a wonderful Thanksgiving, Jenn!

For a lovely Thanksgiving Hymn, visit my blog. www.mylavenderave.blogspot.com

Wishing you all a lovely and peaceful day.

Book #158
The Lacuna

It took me forever to read this book. I don't know why. I liked it, it was very interesting, not the usual topic.
The story follows Harrison Sheppard from childhood to adulthood, from Revolutionary Mexico to post WWII (McCarthy era) United States. There are some interesting peeks into what life may have been like for someone living in the Rivera/Kahlo household, and a fascinating description of Trotsky and his exile in Mexico and affair with Kahlo. I love how Kingsolver mixes fiction with historical events. She paints a colorful picture of a life between two countries.

Some quotes I liked:

The market in Coyoacan is not like the Zocalo downtown, where everything comes ready-made. The girls in blue shawls sit on blankets with stacks of maize they just broke from the field an hour before. While waiting for people to come, they shell off the kernels. If more time passes they soak the corn in lime water, then grind it into wet nixtamal and pat it out. By day's end, all the corn is tortillas.

...people love to read about sins and errors, but not their own.

With Artie, irony carries the mailbag right to the door of nonchalance.

I am glad you enjoyed that one, Jenn.

Hi Stasia!

I did - I didn't feel like going on and on in my little review, but I loved Violet Brown. I loved the relationship they developed, how he trusted her and how she was so loyal.
Someone, maybe in the TIOLI thread, mentioned how it was interesting that he had his deepest friendships with women. I think maybe that's normal in the sense that it is easier to have a close relationship/friendship with someone when sex is not involved? Just a thought. For Frida and Violet, they were really not interested in him, nor was he in them. It allowed for a more relaxed environment I think.

#218: I think maybe that's normal in the sense that it is easier to have a close relationship/friendship with someone when sex is not involved.

I agree with that. Sex adds more ramifications to a relationship.

Book #159
Remarkable Creatures

An excellent historical novel about Mary Anning and her friend and mentor Elizabeth Philpot - early fossil hunters, and the more remarkable for being female. I really enjoyed the discussions of religion vs. science and the way the women questioned long held beliefs about the creation of the world. I relate to that as both a Christian and a student of science. I personally believe that religion and science exist together quite comfortably, but I often run into people who disagree with me. :)
I liked the evolution of the relationship between Elizabeth and Mary, from mentor and student to equals and friends. The author really manages to get a lot into this book; women's rights, social class, evolution, and even Jane Austen. A great read.

Jenn - Remarkable Creatures sounds like an interesting read. Your comments really piqued my interest. Onto the TBR list it goes!

Book #160
Room

One of the most disturbing and memorable books I have read this year. About a girl who is kidnapped when she is 19, and her son, who is born while she is imprisoned by the kidnapper. They escape when the boy is five. More heart-breaking even than the captivity is the voice of the 5 year old boy as he tries to acclimate to freedom or "Outside" as he calls it. It made me think of all the things I take for granted, the things my children don't even know to take for granted. Recommended.

Hi Jenn, The Lacuna just sits on the shelf, waiting its turn and Remarkable Creatures keeps tempting me to buy it everytime I see it in Target or KS. I'm glad to see you liked them both!

Everyone keeps telling me to read Room but I'm not sure I'll like the story. Disturbing and memorable can be good thing.

I really need to get to the Kingsolver book...

Book #161
The Wide Window
audio

Yet another installment in the terrible, horrible lives of the Baudelaire orphans. I think I will take a break - the misery is becoming oppressive. The author narrated this particular audio, and I do not care for his reading style.

Book #162
Setting the Record Straight: American History in Black and White

One of the most fascinating history books I have read in a long time. It is very well documented and contains 40 pages of notes and index material. This is the history of African Americans in American politics from before the Revolutionary War to today. I have some new heroes to admire and teach my children about. I learned things about Frederick Douglass, for example, that I was never taught in school.

Quotes:

I was, on the anti-slavery question,...fully committed to (the) doctrine touching the pro-slavery character of the Constitution...I advocated it with pen and tongue, according to the best of my ability...Upon a reconsideration of the whole subject, I became convinced... that the Constitution of the United States not only contained no guarantees in favor of slavery, but on the contrary, it is in its letter and spirit an anti-slavery instrument, demanding the abolition of slavery as a condition of its own existence as the supreme law of the lad. Here was a radical change in my opinions...Brought directly, when I escaped from slavery, into contact with a class of abolitionists regarding the Constitution as a slaveholding instrument, it is not strange that I assumed the Constitution to be just what their interpretation made it...But I was now conducted to the conclusion that the Constitution of the United States was not designed to maintain and perpetuate a system of slavery - especially as not one word can be found in the Constitution to authorize such a belief. Frederick Douglass

I am the slave of principles; I call no political party master...I have ever most sincerely embraced the democratic ideal - not, indeed, as represented or professed by any party, but according to its real significance as transfigured in the Declaration of Independence and in the injunctions of Christianity. Representative Robert Brown Elliot

In selecting men for office, let principle be your guide. Regard not the particular sect (party) of the candidate - look to his character. Noah Webster

Hi Jenn
I sent North Star a postcard from Switzerland. Just happened to klick around in LT and read your first entry here and so took a postcard from the Chrischona church and posted it. Hope it comes in time

Lovely! Thank you. It will come in plenty of time - they are continuing the project all year. I will tell my son to look for it.

Book #163
The Prince and the Pauper

I thought I had read this book, but now I'm pretty sure I hadn't. A Prince and a Pauper change places and high adventure ensues. Set in the reign of King Edward, just before and just after Henry VIII dies. Twain fits the story neatly into the true life of Edward and it is a lot of fun. His usual sarcasm is mild in this story, but he has plenty of instruction about how rulers should behave.

A wonderful story - I highly recommend it.

This was one of my favorite books, Jenn. I'm glad you got around to reading it.

So are you knitting anything for Christmas?

Hi Caroline!

Yes - I have finished a pair of socks, some boot toppers, a hat for my arriving soon nephew, and I also made a funny little teddy bear/hot water bottle cover for another nephew. I have a hat on the needles for my son. I don't know what's after that. I have in-laws and my family coming into town next week for my son's birthday. I will probably get a LOT of knitting done. Let's just say one side voted for Obama and the other side didn't even like McCain really. Hopefully we can stay off the topic of politics, but when we can't, I knit. And knit. I'm pretty sure it's still cheaper than a therapist.

LOL, Being creative, productive, AND reducing stress...

#225: I must find a copy of that one!

ok

It's official . I am never coming back to this thread.
I could easily add the last 5 books to my tbr pile immediately.
This cannot be allowed to continue!

seriously, you need to consider other people before you go off reading and the for pity sakes, reviewing all of these good books. There are consequences, you know!

sheesh!

LOL Kathleen. But if you never came back I would miss you. Just so you know.

On Douglass's observations -- A good deal of the Constitution was 'designed' by Alexander Hamilton who was seriously seriously anti-slavery as well as being a very very clever fellow. So I have NO DOUBT that he SLIPPED IN in subtle but thorough ways language that indicated exactly what Douglass picked up!!!!!

Hi Lucy!

I agree completely. In everything I have read, Federalist Papers, the Constitution itself, etc. I have had the distinct impression that the goal was to ultimately make slavery impossible. The more I read, the more amazed I am at the intelligence and forward thinking of most of the founders of this country.

awwww thank you :)
you made my day :)

Hi Jenn!

Remarkable Creatures caught my eye at the bookstore. . glad someone has already read it. I ordered it thru Abebooks.

Hi Tamara. I hope you enjoy it. I think a few other people may have read it last month, you might find their reviews linked on the TIOLI thread for November.

Just in case any of you are interested, one of my Etsy teams is hosting a blog hop starting tomorrow. People are sharing recipes and crafts. About 25 bloggers are participating. If it sounds fun to you, start here: www.etsymom.blogspot.com.

Again, it starts Sunday morning. Enjoy!

Book #164
Amber Beach

I am a little embarrassed about mentioning that I read this book. It's like a sexual tension book with a side of mystery and adventure. I thought I was getting mystery and adventure with a side of ... well, you get what I mean. Nevertheless, I finished it. OCD, or something else entirely? Don't really want to explore that.

I think it may be awhile before I post more books. I started Wolf Hall yesterday. I am liking it very much, and I hope I have more reading time starting Monday.

#240: I hope you enjoy Wolf Hall. I really liked it, but be aware of the confusion with the names. There are multiple Thomases, Marys, Elizabeths, etc.

Thanks Stasia - I hear you, I am already keeping a list of which is who, and it's somewhat challenging.

ye gods.. a list ? Sounds like a labor intensive read.

#242: Good idea!

Book #165
A Fatal Grace

I just finished listening to A Fatal Grace. I loved the narrator. His French was lovely. Interesting to get to know all the characters a little better. I am also intrigued by references to an old case that has hurt Gamache's career. I will continue with this series for sure. There were a few to many f-bombs for my taste. I find it so much more shocking to the soul when read aloud.

Book #166
The Wee Christmas Cabin of Carn-na-ween

An absolutely lovely little Irish folk tale, written by 95862::Ruth Sawyer and published in 1941. Read it, do.

>245 nittnut: Ralph Cosham? If so, he is absolutely wonderful!! I was a little afraid when I received Bury Your Dead through the ER program and had to read it instead that I would miss his voice. I did but the book was good that it didn't bother me much. Glad you liked A Fatal Grace!

Book #166 sounds intriguing...I'm off on a hunt!

eta: Found it through ILL. Thanks for the rec.!

I had to laugh at your comments about Lemony Snicket -- I confess that's the reason why after briefly picking up one of the books in a store, I promptly returned it to the stack. No redeeming value there, IMO! I'll read bleak literary fiction or history because it's informative or beautifully written and captures reality -- but misery in fantasy? yuck. Even the HP books have a tremendous amount of wit and warmth to them.

Now, as to postcards -- I bought one in Paris, but didn't have time to get a stamp or get to a post office. Are postcards purchased in exotic locales but mailed from NYC acceptable? If so, I can definitely send this one and dig out some others that were def purchased in the locales pictured. Let me know...

#245: Rats. My local library does not have that particular Sawyer book.

Hi Joanne, YES! Ralph Cosham. I think I could listen to anything if he was reading it.

Hi Suzanne, you know, I'm not really sure what to make of someone who can write 13 books of unremitting misery. Perhaps medication is in order? We'd love the postcard from Paris, thanks!

Maybe try ILL Stasia? It is worth a bit of a hunt.

I have been reading Under the Banner of Heaven and I am deeply disappointed. Review to come.

I have been reading Under the Banner of Heaven. It was not on my TBR list, and I wasn't really interested in it. Reading about creepy pedophiles who use a sort of self manufactured "religion" to justify their behavior is not my cup of tea, but after bohemima read it and commented on how disturbed she felt after reading it, I thought I would investigate. Not investigate because I like to feel disturbed, but rather to see what his premise was and how he treated his subject.

I am really disappointed, for several reasons.

1. The book is billed as a scholarly work. Instead it is a piece of yellow journalism at best. It is written for a sensational effect and very poorly researched. He dwells heavily on stories of people on the fringes of society, clearly enjoying dragging his readers through the muck in their minds and their delusions. None of his sources are without bias, and it's all the same bias, it supports his opinion.

2. From the beginning, Krakauer demonstrates a clear anti-religious bias and interprets the information through that lens.

3. Krakauer's premise is that religious faith leads to violence. There are instances throughout history (the Crusades) where that may seem to be the case. In fact, I would say that the Crusades are a good example of conquest and plunder done in the name of religion. Krakauer never supports his argument with evidence that it is the actual adherence to religion that causes violence. In fact, drug use, domestic violence and disaffection with society is cited in all of the lives of the criminals he features. Most of the violence in the world related to religious beliefs? I disagree. Just a few supporting examples for my opinion: Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Hitler.

4. Krakauer shows a deep lack of understanding of the tenets and beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (otherwise known as Mormon). He continually misinterprets and misrepresents the history and beliefs.
The end of the chapter "The Still Small Voice" is a good example. Krakauer states that this self-styled prophet Onias established a School of the Prophets as a "mechanism for instilling crucial Mormon principles that had been forsaken by the modern LDS Church: plural marriage; the tenet that God and Adam, the first man were one and the same; and the divinely ordained supremacy of the white race."
Here's the deal folks. Polygamy was practiced in the early days of the LDS church. The practice was stopped when it was made illegal in the United States. People who practice polygamy are not members of the LDS church. Belief that God and Adam are the same person was never a principle of the LDS faith, nor was white supremacy. Both of those claims are false.

I could write a book about the things he got wrong, it would be long, and it would not be difficult to provide supporting documentation.

I am LDS, and was raised in an LDS family. I was taught to find out for myself if I believed in the teachings of my church. I was encouraged to get a good education and as an adult I have held many leadership positions in my church organization. I have never felt treated as a "lesser" human being because I was female. If you want to know more about the LDS faith, www.lds.org is a good place to start. You will find that the first principle of the LDS faith is that Jesus is the Son of God. We are Christian. We do have a prophet who we believe receives revelation for the church. The prophet does not tell us how to vote, who to marry, how many children to have or what to eat for dinner.

I apologize if this seems like a rant. I am not angry. I don't expect Krakauer, or any of you, for that matter, to subscribe to my beliefs. What I do expect is that someone who is claiming to be writing a piece of historical non-fiction do just that. Stick to the facts, use honest sources, or even just balance the sources, give both sides. Unfortunately, Krakauer has taken all the vile and false assertions he can find and interspersed them in a book about sick and violent people in order to form a connection between religion and anti-social behavior.

Nittnut, that is too bad about that book. I have it on my shelf and had also planned to read it for the TIOLI challenge this month, but I'm not sure it's worth the time. Are there any books about the LDS church that you would recommend, maybe something with a historical perspective? I'm Methodist and not looking to change that, but I am curious about your church, in part because there seem to be so many rumors and misunderstandings.

I'm sorry the book seems so biased. Certainly not what we need in our age.

On the other hand, regarding religion as a source of violence, as a Jew I must say that violence against the Jews predated Hitler by at least 1800 years, and was deeply ingrained in European culture. If you add in the various wars in Europe between Catholics and Protestants, the treatment of people identified as witches, the disputes among Hindu, Sikh and Muslim populations in the Indian subcontinent, and the treatment of various religious groups in Asia, I'd say Krakauer might have a point.

I think the question is whether religion is the cause of violence or an excuse for violence. It's easy to think religion is the cause if you only select examples of religious-related violence. To get an accurate view, you'd have to include all the other wars, race-related violence, etc.

Judy, you definitely have a point regarding violence against the Jews, etc.
However, like Carly says, I think religion is used as an excuse for violence. I think if any of those groups were honest about their reasons, there was more than religious difference involved. Money, racism, power, fear, all of these things are factors. It seems to me that throughout history, any ruler that wanted to have power over another group, or resented the power a group had would invent a "religious" reason to motivate their people to go to war. Religion can definitely be a factor, and clearly is in the cases you mention, but not the only reason, I don't think.
It's completely rotten. The idealist in me resents deeply that we can't all just get along. I hate the idea of someone justifying hurting another person because they disagree about something, particularly about God. So heartbreaking.

Well, I had mixed feelings about the book. I know, really, next to nothing about LDS, so I can't comment on any of those statements. I thought he did make clear, though, that with regard to the murders and to present-day polygamy, he was referring to what is quite clearly not an LDS-sanctioned branch of Mormonism (I don't mean that word offensively), but rather to a crazed offshoot that the church has tried to stop. At least, that's what I thought he was saying.

That said, I also thought his anti-religious bias was plain for all to see, despite his disclaimer at the end. And too, I was mightily disappointed that the author of Into Thin Air would sink to this sort of sensationalist, Headline News Network sort of thing. I bought because I liked his two books or mountain climbing. Live and learn, I guess.

Hi Gail. Yes, exactly. I really enjoyed his mountain climbing books. That's one of the reasons I was so disappointed.

I must say that when I read the book (around the time it first appeared, a few years ago), I didn't make the mistake of drawing analogies between the LDS community and these breakaway sects which have nothing to do with the "Mormon" church. In these cultlike sects, religion seems to be used to rationalize what they want to do, from polygamy to expelling young men who may become sexual and political rivals. Perhaps that's because I'm a little more familiar with the LDS world than the average reader might be.
Just on a personal level, I've found LDS church members probably have higher personal standards for their behavior than our society at large (rather than lower, as the breakaway sects might suggest) although I have to admit that the theology leaves me utterly baffled, as well as passing comments I've heard about stuff that people think is absolutely acceptable to them. But then, the LDS church isn't my church, so it doesn't matter what I think -- unless anyone decides that that is how we all should live. (Here I have a problem with the anti-gay campaigning in California.) Again, however, ALL of these things are completely divorced from the issues in the book, at least in my reading of it.

I'm not sure I saw an anti-religious bias in the book; more of a concern about what religious faith can produce in its most extreme forms. The problem that I see with many/all religions is that the more utterly convinced someone is that they are right, that that they have received messages from God confirming that, that anyone who disagrees with them is damned, the fewer barriers there are to viewing non-believers as "other", and, by definition, lesser. In a minority of cases, that becomes treating those "others" as lesser -- depriving them of civil rights, physically threatening them, etc. I don't think this is specific to any religion; indeed, it crops up in most religions (yes, including Buddhism!) at different times and in different contexts. It worries me that people can claim to treat each other violently, disrespect the essential humanity of another individual, in the name of any god. Because the fundamental commandment of most religions is that of love and mutual respect. But in some individuals, that is narrowed to love and respect for people who share my beliefs; who are privileged.

I think the stronger someone's faith in a particular creed, the more likely that is to be at least latent. If you believe strongly in a political cause, for instance, you're more likely to view someone who doesn't perceive the truth as you do as deluded, malicious or just dense -- and ultimately lesser, in some way. That is simply human nature. I once had some friends (I won't say which religious faith) tell me how sad they were that I would be going to hell! Quite aside from the fact that in their theology, it is God who decides who ends up in hell, not adherents of the faith, and they weren't pretending to be able to read God's mind, I found the fact that someone would be so presumptuous utterly mind-boggling. Then I realized, no, it's the religious passion speaking; in their eyes, I was being wilfully blind to the "truth" and thus sinning against God -- a major offense.

If we rewind time and look at history, go back to an era where religion was the only thing that most people had to cling to to explain their world and give them a reason for putting one foot in front of each other in often truly miserable circumstances, I don't think religion was simply an excuse for violence. (It could be, but I don't think that was the dominant cause.) Individual Crusaders undoubtedly fought for plunder; the Crusades were organized for religious purposes, and Crusaders convinced themselves that slaughtering Jews and Byzantines en route, and Muslims and others at their destination, was removing the world of all those who refused to see the "truth". The same is true of the territories of the Inquisition, Spain and Portugal. The Albigensian Crusade wasn't really about power or plunder -- except on the margins, or perhaps to prevent an erosion of the Vatican's monopoly of religion -- but about orthodoxy.

Bottom line: I think religious faith CAN lead to violence, because it DOES lead to a "my group vs your group" attitude. Without the latter, violence becomes harder, as a criminologist would argue. The reason that people whose loved ones have been kidnapped are urged to use their names in public pleas to the kidnapper is to make the victim a real person in the eyes of their kidnapper, not just an anonymous body. Not having empathy can follow designating another person or group as the "other"; not having empathy is a precondition of violence. As Judy noted, group violence against Jews in Europe wasn't based only on envy of their social or economic success (which, in the case of most of the victims, was non-existent) but rather of a threat to the "true" religion.

These days, I'd agree that in our society, at least, religion is rarely a direct cause of violence. But it can and does still lead to lack of empathy for others. I hear the Muslims in my neighborhood talk about Jews; I've heard some throwaway comments in Salt Lake about gays that horrified me. Those may not be mainstream; those people probably will never commit a violent act. Heavens -- look at the Amish, who utterly reject the outside world and the "English", and yet who are utter pacifists. BUT that attitude is still there -- the non-Amish are the "other", to be shunned.

Next year, I want to find a good biography of Gandhi. It strikes me, from the little I have read, that while he was an extremely religious Hindu, he somehow managed to combine that with being an equally devoted humanist and pacifist, something that limited his ability to define some groups as the "other".

Oh, and I'm not saying that ONLY religion has that effect on people. It can be race, it can be political views; heck, it can even be literature.

Going back to the Krakauer book -- I read it mostly as a book about a true crime, one that occurred in the context of this particular breakaway sect. I didn't view it as saying anything larger about either religion in general or the LDS church specifically, even if the author had intended it to be read that way. It was moderately interesting and quite chilling, but it wasn't a book that stuck with me, or one that I was prompted to re-read when I saw others reading it this month.

Excuse my long-windedness here!! and apologies for the soapbox.

I agree with a lot of what you said, Suzanne, but to me the search for something to distinguish "us" from "them" is just a human characteristic independent of religion. Sometimes religion is used as the dividing line, but just as often it's something else. I wish I could remember where I saw this, but I saw something recently that said if you put two groups of strangers in a room, they will quickly start thinking of ways their group is better than the other group, even though they were picked randomly. Of course there are times that religion was/is really the cause of violence--like your example of Jews being thought of as a threat to "true" religion--but I don't think that sets religion apart from other causes (economics, power, etc.).

ETA: I think atheists' public disdain for religious people has the same us-vs-them dynamic. Why else would someone who doesn't believe in God care whether someone else does?

I don't mind the occasional soapbox :). I absolutely agree that any group can have intolerant people.

The idealist in me says that anyone who was truly converted to the idea that everyone is a child of God (Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. come to mind) anyone with that sincere belief would not persecute others or promote violence in the name of the "true religion". They would peacefully live their beliefs and show by example a better way to live.

The bottom line for me on the Krakauer book was that aside from the true crime aspect, etc. he wrote things about the history of the LDS faith that are absolutely untrue and that is irresponsible in the context of the type of book he was writing. I just felt like I needed to let people know that his book was not an accurate historical record.

Loving this discussion... and wishing I had something to contribute, but I haven't even finished my first coffee of the day yet so I'm barely coherent... :)

Good grief - and we must be coherent. Get another coffee and join us!

Coherence? Whatever for??

The point about human nature is a very valid one, and I completely agree with you. The only difference between religion and other factors that lead people to develop hierarchies amongst themselves is that when the "us" vs "them" division is made for religious reasons, in the eyes of those doing it, it is divinely sanctioned. That makes it harder to challenge the logic behind the behavior; whenever anyone's final answer in defense of bad behavior (the ultimate outcome in a minority of cases) is "God says it's OK", that's far more dangerous. We can use logic, science, etc. to point out fallacies in other cases (eg, type O blood is no different whether it comes from someone who is from China, Nigeria or England), but when the final argument is "God says so", that is a facer.

I am reassured by the existence of people like Gandhi, MLK, etc., although they have only arisen within the last century. And sadly they are still outnumbered by the nutcases or the "ordinary intolerant" (the kind of person who routinely thinks in "us vs. them" terms without it being apparent to anyone but friends when they tell jokes, etc.)

To bring the discussion of 'us' vs 'them' closer to our everyday lives, I relate this.

In a seminar on gaining influence without authority in corporate life, the instructor told us that the fastest way to be accepted into a new group is to express hatred or scorn of the same groups they do, especially if you were in one of those groups yourself before. Negatives are much more powerful that positives in binding groups together. As Suzanne said, religion has the extra validation of divine sanction, but we are a tribal bunch, and we'll invent tribes as we can.

Grace is a long way away, folks.

The only difference between religion and other factors that lead people to develop hierarchies amongst themselves is that when the "us" vs "them" division is made for religious reasons, in the eyes of those doing it, it is divinely sanctioned.

I agree - this is a big problem - and I believe - has been used with disastrous effect throughout history. The perfect way to get the uneducated masses to go along with your plan to wage war on another group of people? Tell them God told you to do it and they will be blessed/saved/made holy by participating. The key is to look at the actions and the goal and see if it actually fits with the professed belief. Again Ghandi and MLK Jr. are great examples because they lived exactly what they preached. In addition, they were willing to die rather than back down from what they believed, which in combination with peaceful, non-violent resistance, is one of the most powerful agents of change there is. As soon as we turn to violence (physically or in rhetoric) we lose the high ground, you know? It changes the dynamic and it never turns out well.
I believe it is possible for each of us, should we choose to, to live what we believe, unapologetically, but also with respect and love for those who believe differently. I am trying oh, so very hard to live this way. I'm pretty sure it's a life work.

Judy, excellent point. I'm still pondering a book about genealogy, and why people research it, and this is one of the issues that keeps raising its ugly head. Yes, it can give people a sense of "connectedness" and identity in a fast-moving and slippery world, but roots beget tribalism. Heavens, when I went to the part of Ireland that my (Protestant) ancestors had left nearly two centuries previously, the (Catholic) head of the regional library system and its chief genealogy researcher, actually hissed when he realized they weren't Catholics... After the lapse of six or seven generations, and after 75 years of independence on the part of the Republic of Ireland, I was still the "oppressor". Scary.

This has been a fruitful and thoughtful discussion, so Krakauer's book, however flawed, has at least served one good purpose. What disturbed me, what I found chilling, in the book was how easy it seemed for these men to slide over from what may loosely be termed a fringe group into complete individual craziness. Of course that begs the question, "Were they crazy, or potentially so, independent of the religious sect?" Probably the answer to that is yes. If you read their own words describing their thoughts both before and after the murders, you see craziness, not religious fervor.

Although my encounters with religious prejudice have been few--my first shock was when a boy I had dated twice in a very casual, group sort of way (at age 15) called me to tell me that he couldn't date me any longer because I was a Catholic. I have to say my initial reaction was to laugh and say, "What?! We're fifteen!"--I've seen all degrees of that prejudice at work during my life, and despise them equally. All we can do is try not to do it, even by mistake. And to make it a quiet point to say, "Please don't talk like that in front of me; I don't like it." Man, can that be hard to do! And I do agree that this can go back to tribalism and the need for a group to belong to, which is part of the cause of our gang problems today.

One more plus for the book: it has made my dread/hatred of violence even stronger. But I may never read another book by him. I was dubious about the one where the young man disappears into the wildnerness. I think his desire (i.e., Krakauer's) to explore fringe elements is taking him down a road I don't want to follow.

Jenn, sorry for sort of taking over your thread here.

ETA a clause I left out; it was in my head, but my typing got ahead of me.

This has been a great discussion - maybe we can start some kind of institute...

Wonderful comments, people--I enjoyed your thoughtful discussion immensely!

What a great discussion here, Jenn!

I mentioned on the Kitchen thread that the more I read, the more I am convinced that education is the key to eliminating prejudice. I mean any kind of prejudice whether it is racial, religious, what have you and I truly believe it. Being raised by one of the most bigoted people on the planet has certainly heightened my awareness of prejudice and I am still trying to understand why prejudice exists. Thanks for the enlightening discussion, Jenn.

I enjoyed listening in on your well-mannered discussion!

I agree with you in part, Stasia, but what if the bigot who had raised you had sent you to a school where bigotry of some kind was ingrained in the curriculum? That is what concerns me -- when efforts to open peoples' eyes to what goes on in a wider world are dismissed as un-American or "socialist", the result can be contrary to what all of here seem to want. You are the kind of person who made your own way, who was inherently curious about the world you occupied -- but I'm not sure that is true of many human beings. Because when you are curious, you end up outside your comfort zone, and to most of us that is a scary place; to some, downright threatening. So I agree that education is the answer -- but a kind of education that fosters curiosity, inquiry and open-mindedness, rather than rote learning and prescribed answers to specific questions. That doesn't need to mean a loss of religious faith or national feeling -- many of the Renaissance's leading lights had tremendous religious faith, and while Enlightenment sages tended to be more skeptical of both religious doctrine and national fervor, they included conservatives as well as Rousseau-like mavericks.

Here's a question for our salon to debate. Is intellectual curiosity innate, or can it be sparked in someone? If the latter, is there an age past which someone is unlikely to develop a wide-ranging curiosity about the world beyond their social/physical/cultural boundaries? Thoughts?

(Argh, I'm hijacking a thread again...)

#272: what if the bigot who had raised you had sent you to a school where bigotry of some kind was ingrained in the curriculum?

I think he tried to, Suz. What he had not counted on was the fact that as a reader (something he has never been), I would learn to respect other cultures, points of view, etc. I even remember when it sunk in for me that people are not all that different from each other and starting to question why people killed those different from themselves. I still wonder that today and am hoping through my reading to better understand why that is. Naive of me, I suppose.

Sorry, got interrupted by work before I could get to the question at large: Is intellectual curiosity innate, or can it be sparked in someone?

Both, I think. Some people are born with unbounded curiosity but others can have it sparked by an enthusiastic teacher or other person they respect. Is it nature versus nurture all over again?

That was/is a good discussion. I come a bit late, but I enjoyed reading it. Religion is a powerful factor in our lives. It can lead people to positive action (like helping as medics in Afghanistan) and negative action (people killing these medics). Education would definitively help.

>274 alcottacre:: I think both, too.

(Argh, I'm hijacking a thread again...)

Hijack away Suzanne!

I think intellectual curiosity is both innate and can be cultivated. There is a spark of something (I would call it divine light) in everyone, no matter what their circumstances, and it can either be encouraged or squashed. I have been so inspired by stories like those of Greg Mortenson. He goes to these remote villages in Afghanistan and Pakistan and builds schools, and the children are so eager for education, and they thrive. Clearly, in spite of their relative poverty and total isolation from the modern world, intellectual curiosity is alive and well. I am not sure there is an age limit on change. Isn't the real struggle the ability to admit you were wrong about any long held belief, and then in addition be willing to make the effort to learn more and change? Maybe that gets harder as we age. Humans hate to be wrong.

I also agree with Stasia and Suzanne that education is very important, and an education that cultivates respect for ideas and discussion of ideas is ideal. We are in the process of starting a charter high school here, and the curriculum is Classical. The idea being encouraging students to think about what they are learning and then to question and discuss in a constructive manner will help them to make better sense of their world - hopefully developing into thoughtful citizens. I have learned so much about education and the process of learning as I have been working on this school. I have been in a seminar on the Socratic method that was amazing. We had a reading assignment before we came, and then we sat in a classroom and participated in a discussion just like we want our HS students to do. It was amazing. About 30 people. all strangers to each other, widely varying backgrounds, and the discussion, even when people did not agree, was civil, and electrifying. Kind of like discussing things with all of you.

At least we know we are all doing our part - encouraging reading among our acquaintance - whether they like it or not!

I really admire your participation in developing that new school - wonderful.

As to intellectual curiosity, I believe that it can be both squashed and encouraged. Unfortunately, I also believe that it happens pretty early in life, and mostly by parents (people like Stasia are treasured escapees!). First-hand experience with other people is a tremendous help in establishing truly unbiased curiosity, but it's more effective when it occurs when you're pretty young. It's hard to change your reflexive bias when you are older. The term 'cognitive dissonance' refers to the conflict between your unexamined assumptions and the evidence before you, represented by the closed minds we have seen all around us this election season.

Perhaps, then, it's inherent, but if not cultivated or squashed early on in life, people end up thinking of Harlequin romance novels as great writing and reality TV shows as the best drama on offer?

Ran across the following comment when finishing Running the Books by Avi Steinberg today. The context is the author thinking back to a time when he and some other members of his ultra-orthodox Torah study group in a West Bank settlement where he was spending the summer bump into some young Palestinian teens of their age. The situation is tense until one of the boys saves it by handing over a copy of the Torah. At the time, Avi and his friends were scandalized by this -- books are sacred, especially religious books, and to give them to a Muslim, while pointing at the sky and saying "Allah; Ibrahim" in an effort to communicate was borderline heresy. Writing about this later, he muses "We had been taught to place the Other on a narrow spectrum of pity, suspicion, and hate. We were taught to view boys our age as the enemy. But Moshe had found another way. He knew that holiness of the book was in physically sharing it."

thinking of Harlequin romance novels as great writing and reality TV shows as the best drama on offer?

LOL - I guess it could also be just what you spend time on. Do I read as much as I do because my parents are both readers, or because we didn't have a TV until I was 12 and already well on my way to bookaholicism? Because, oddly enough, I would totally rather read Wolf Hall than watch "So You Think You Can Dance."

Beautiful quote from Running the Books - adding that to the TBR pile. It sounds intriguing.

Book #166
Tallgrass

I loved this book. I was a bit doubtful, in spite of good reviews from other LTers, because I really didn't like Whiter Than Snow very much. Tallgrass was wonderful. The characters felt real and accessible and the story just drew me right in. The book had a similar feel to another book I read about the same part of Colorado - The Magic of Ordinary Days - in that it was about real people in every day situations and I could really imagine their lives.The story also has a lot to say about prejudice and courage. The narrator was Lorelei King, and she did a wonderful job.

Book #167
The Miserable Mill

Miserable. Trapped in a car, driving carpool, subject to the 6th graders choice of books. Just miserable.

Book #168
Knit the Season

Further scenes in the life of the Walker and Daughter knitting group. Methinks the author is becoming weary of her characters.

I am nearly finished with Wolf Hall, and I just know that soon I will find out why the book is called Wolf Hall rather than Austin Friars or The Tower, or...

Jenn

The price I pay for being so far behind on the threads is that I've missed some very interesting conversations happening here.

#280: I am glad you enjoyed Tallgrass, Jenn! I did too. I keep meaning to get to some nonfiction on the Japanese internment. Maybe in 2011 I finally will.

I was planning to just skim here, since i had missed so many posts... but I couldn't do it. So many thoughtful and thought provoking posts, so beautifully discussed. Such wonderful discussion.

I have Wolf Hall and will try to read it next year, I think..

I believe it is possible for each of us, should we choose to, to live what we believe, unapologetically, but also with respect and love for those who believe differently. I am trying oh, so very hard to live this way. I'm pretty sure it's a life work.

I try too. I fail miserably when it comes to being judgmental about parenting and treatment of animals. Judgement blazes out of me like flames.

Hi Jenn, I'm glad to see you enjoyed Tallgrass. It's probably my favorite of Sandra Dallas' books. Whiter Than Snow, I felt, was pretty weak.

Book #169
Wolf Hall

A very ambitious book, Wolf Hall Chronicles the life of Thomas Cromwell from childhood to the death of Sir Thomas More. It helps to have a general understanding of the history of the Tudors and the basics of the reign of Henry VIII. I liked the author's way of doing everything through a conversation Cromwell either had or observed. I also really appreciated the fleshing out of Cromwell's story. He becomes more of a sympathetic and interesting character. I was a bit annoyed by the jumping around in time, especially at the beginning of the book. I think that contributed to a rather slow reading pace on my part. That and keeping track of all the Janes, Annes, Thomas's and Richards, etc. I thought it was very interesting that the book was titled Wolf Hall, and the entire book was spent just getting Cromwell to Wolf Hall. I will be interested to read a sequel.

Hi Linda and Kathleen! It was a very interesting discussion. I so enjoy all of you here - being able to have thoughtful discussions and even civil disagreements on so many topics.

Stasia, if you come across some nonfiction that looks promising, please do pass it on!

Hey Joanne! So happy I'm not the only one.

Hey Jenn, glad you enjoyed Wolf Hall. It is a tome but well worth the effort I thought. Fortunately for me, I read it on one of my long trips when I didn't have the distractions of home.

Jenn, one nonfiction book on the Japanese internment that was recommended to me (but which I have not yet read) is Farewell to Manzanar. My local library has it and I am hoping to get to it in the new year.

I am glad to see that you enjoyed Wolf Hall too!

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!

Still struggling through two very long books I have committed myself to. They are good, just slow reads. Greatly distracted by a lovely pile of library books just acquired. *sigh*

Merry Christmas! May your new year be full of lots of unexpected periods you can devote entirely to reading stacks of great new books!

I loved Wolf Hall -- for me, I thought of the title less in a literal sense and more in the context of what it foretells for Cromwell. Deposing Anne, having Jane as queen was what propelled him to ultimate power. But the process of doing so consolidated Henry's megalomania and led to Cromwell's sudden fall and execution. I will be v. interested to see what she does with the next part of his life. Meanwhile I do want to re-read Wolf Hall!

ETA: Are you looking for nonfiction generally, or nonfiction on Japanese internment camps? Farewell to Manzanar is good, I thought of it as a YA memoir, if I recall correctly.

May your new year be full of lots of unexpected periods you can devote entirely to reading stacks of great new books!

The Best wish ever! Thanks Suzanne!

I am interested in nonfiction on Japanese internment camps. I've read lots of fiction on the subject, but not much non-fiction. If you have suggestions, I'd love it.

Jenn - Just wanted to drop by to wish you a Merry Christmas!

Jenn, try The Unquiet Nisei. It's about both the internment camps and the redress campaign, seen through the eyes of one woman. I know I have notes on some other non-fiction, mostly personal narratives; will post them when I can lay hands on them!

Thanks Joanne! To you as well. Too bad it's not a White Christmas.

Thanks Suzanne. That sound exactly like what I'm looking for. I will start there.

Merry Christmas, Jenn! My girls are disappointed it's not white... hope you and your family have a lovely holiday.

What? You didn't knit them any snow, Jenn? tsk tsk .. ;-)

Wishing you and your family a very merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas, Jenn!

Merry Christmas from me too, Jenn.

A belated Merry Christmas, Jenn. Hope it was a great one for you and your family.

Shame on me for not keeping up with you, Jenn. I missed an interesting discussion that I would have loved to be part of. So....hope your Christmas was just what you wished, and that it continues to be so!

Hi Roni and Peggy! Thanks for the Christmas wishes. I hope yours were lovely as well. I started going around the threads and wishing people a merry Christmas, but I believe I got distracted at some point...

Book #170
Auggie Wren's Christmas

A fantastic short story recommended by Joanne. Not your usual Christmas tale. Read by the author here: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4244994 and well worth the listen. Maybe 10 minutes.

Jenn

I haven't been able to obtain Auggie Wren's Christmas. I'm on the library waiting list for over a year now.

Is the book out of print?

Hi Linda,
I don't know if it's out of print. It wasn't available at my library either. I just listened to it using the link above. It took about 10 minutes and it's great.

I'm coming belatedly to the discussion about Under the Banner of Heaven; I just started reading the book yesterday, but I have to say I'm enjoying it so far. Yes, it's a work of journalism rather than scholarship, but I don't think it could really be mistaken for serious scholarship anyway. And journalism has the advantage of being much easier to read.

My concern, of course, is the inaccuracies, particularly with regards to the facts of LDS doctrine. Jenn, I know you said it would take too long to point out all the things he got wrong, but could you elaborate a bit more on the key errors and where they come from? For example, the comment about God and Adam being the same--is there some specific idea that he misinterpreted to arrive at that statement? Likewise his comment about white supremacy--I assumed that came from the story that the Native Americans were the bad guys whose skin God made dark as punishment? Does that story exist, or some related story, or is it completed invented?

Basically I know nothing about LDS, and I'd like to find out how much I'm being led astray here. I'm not worried about the general bias as much as blatant falsehoods, because the bias at least is clear, while I wouldn't notice specific factual errors.

Hi Zoe,

Yes - definitely his bias is clear and he's quite open about it. His factual errors bothered me quite a bit, both because I rather expect a journalist or a novelist to at least do research and get the story straight... and because anyone who does not know much about the LDS faith will have a lot of very bad information as a result of reading this book.

I have no idea where the God and Adam being the same came from. We take the Bible to be scripture as do other Christians, and at no time have I ever heard anything to contradict the teaching that God placed Adam on earth as the first man.
As far as the white supremacy thing goes, there are stories in the Bible (Cain, one of the sons of Noah) about God making the skin of wicked men dark to prevent the chosen people from intermingling with them. Fairly dramatic, no? In fact, one of the main reasons members of the LDS faith were persecuted heavily in Missouri from the 1830's onward was the strong anti-slavery feeling among them. Imagine a large group of abolitionists moving into Missouri in the years prior to the civil war. There was great fear that this large, voting, anti-slavery group would force Missouri to be a free state.
In terms of Krakauer's account of the history of the LDS faith, his sources are suspect. In reading the list of sources at the back, I could not find any who are respected LDS historians or scholars. In fact, many of them are people who are disaffected from the church for one reason or another. While it is fair that he gets information from them, it would have been nice if he had balanced his sources with information from other, less antagonistic sources. Much in the same way that I would not ask an anti-Semite to teach me about Judaism, if you know what I mean. Particularly disturbing to me were the allegations of sexual misconduct by church leaders, including Joseph Smith. These things are not true, and I was very sorry to see them in Krakauer's book.

For anyone who is interested in learning what people of the LDS faith believe, or in reading an accurate account of the history of the LDS church and Joseph Smith, here is a short list of books I would recommend:

History of Joseph Smith By His Mother Biography of Joseph Smith that tells the story of how the LDS church started.
Our Search for Happiness basic beliefs of the LDS faith
Our Heritage, a Brief History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints history
Why I Believe well known LDS people tell about why they are members of the LDS faith. (Gladys Knight, Danny Ainge, Steve Young, Won Yong Ko, Gordon Smith and others)
The Book of Mormon a book of scripture we consider equal to the Bible and portraying the experience of a branch of the Israelite nation who left Jerusalem and made their way to the American continent. More hard core as far as just getting information, but would definitely give you an idea of what the LDS people believe.
Or, you can go visit www.mormon.org.

I hope, I and I am pretty sure, that all of you know that my purpose in making this list is not to convince anyone to change their faith. I appreciate the opportunity to present better sources of information for anyone who is interested in a better understanding of the LDS faith. Of course you are welcome to ask me what I believe any time.

Thanks for the explanation and for the list of books :). I'd be interested in a longer list, too, if you ever have a chance (not because I'm really likely to read multiple extra books about the topic, at least not in the near future, but because I always like to have as much choice as possible).

Krakauer does mention that members of the LDS tended to be abolitionists, at least: "The Mormon immigrants for the most part hailed from the northeastern states and favored the abolition of slavery; Missourians tended to have southern roots--many of them actually owned slaves--and were deeply suspicious of the Mormons' abolitionist leanings." (98)

Book #171
Personal History

Phew. Two giant books in a row. First Wolf Hall, then this. Not giant as in page numbers, although both books are indeed very pagey, but giant in terms of actual information being assimilated.

Katherine Graham's autobiography is not just a story of a girl born with the proverbial silver spoon in her mouth. Katherine Meyer Graham grew up the privileged daughter of Eugene Meyer. She was very close to her father and after he bought The Washington Post in 1933, paid very close attention to the ups and downs of his new venture. She married Philip Graham, who eventually became the publisher of The Washington Post. After his death, Katherine Graham inherited the position and became the head of The Washington Post. She was clearly a determined and dedicated person, driven to make the paper a success in spite of her lack of expertise. It was quite an experience to read her story, peppered with names of famous people, having the Kennedy's over for dinner or Mr. Graham advising his good friend LBJ to run for president. Seeing Watergate through her eyes was incredible. One of the most interesting parts of her story was when the pressmen's labor union went on strike. It was fascinating to read about labor relations from the management perspective.

"Many of the young guild members were just beginning to mature at that time and had little comprehension of either management or business. To a lot of them there was something dirty about profits and something greedy about those seeking profits. They had no idea of what was needed to maintain and grow a business healthy enough to pay their substantial salaries and benefits. This attitude, encouraged by the union leaders, distressed me profoundly. What I myself saw as the underpinnings of the strike was that people were being well paid but poorly managed and poorly communicated with."

Another quote, relating to the Pentagon Papers, and the Nixon administrations over reaction to their publication, struck me as something that might be applicable today:

"Nothing in them was a reflection on Nixon...Griswold acknowledged as much in an op-ed article for the Post, titled "Secrets Not Worth Keeping," that appeared in February of 1989, at the time of Iran-Contra, saying "that the principal concern of the classifiers is not with national security, but rather with governmental embarrassment of one sort or another... there is very rarely any real risk to current national security from the publication of facts relating to transactions in the past, even the fairly recent past."

Katherine Graham tells of the publication of the Pentagon Papers and the Nixon administrations attempts to prevent publication. The case went to court, and a general was brought in to testify regarding the threat publication would pose to national security. He said, "Judge, if anybody thinks these are our war plans, I sure hope they do, because these are entirely out of date."

Overall, I was impressed with the life of a woman thrust into a management position at a time when there were no other women in a similar position. She did her best, worked hard, and most impressively, was tireless in her defense of the freedom of the press, even in really difficult and high pressure situations. Highly recommended. Just plan for it to take you a while to read...

Book #172
The Cruelest Month

I enjoyed this next installment very much. I may have a teensy crush on the narrator (Ralph Cosham). My only issue with the story this time was that the transitions between chapters or points of view was less well defined and sometimes I found that I had been thinking we were talking about Gamache, but really it was Beauvoir. That was annoying. The things I like - I love how conflict is carried over from previous books, how we finally learn what the Arneau case was all about, how characters continue to evolve. I am looking forward to the next one. I just wish I didn't have to hear the f-word quite so much. It's personal - I hate the word. I flinch every time. When Ruth is talking, that's a lot of flinching.

#308: I enjoyed that one when I read it several years ago and made myself a note in my book journal to re-read it as a matter of fact. Thanks for the reminder, Jenn!

#309: I am with you in the hatred of the f-word. I will dock a book for overuse.

#305-306 etc.: I just started Under the Banner of Heaven and am planning to read the book Jennifer very kindly sent me, Our Search for Happiness, after that. My initial reaction is that Krakauer starts with a false premise: he assumes that people who say they are religious or acting for religious reasons are actually devout/faithful. I think at least some of the extremists he is talking about--like the 9/11 people--are not really religious. Religion has either been used as a tool by power-seekers to manipulate others, or religion is a convenient excuse for doing something terrible that they wanted to do for other reasons. Or, in the case of the Laffertys, some people are just delusional. The fact that they believe God is speaking to them--versus Satan, or their mother, or whoever--doesn't make them religious, nor does it make religion or faith the cause of their actions. Anyway, it's an interesting topic.

Count me in with those who dislike the gratuitous use of the F "bomb." I know in some cases (like Lehane's books about South Boston) it is part of the way people talk and I can pretty much ignore it, but I found it very distasteful in the beginning pages of Freedom when the narrator talks about the experimentation (my word) or f---ing (his word) between Joey and his 'older' (ages 11 and 12) neighbor on Pg. 11. A few pages later, the children become teens and engage in a f---festival when parents are out of town. This may be The Great American Novel but it just lost half a star from me!

Thanks for letting me rant a bit on your thread, Jenn. I'm saving your list of LDS books because I do want to learn more about it at some point in time. I agree with Carly (Post 311) about how different religions get a bad name because of the extremists. That's why I like to describe myself as being spiritual rather than religious. Interesting stuff here. I'm looking forward to following your new thread in 2011. Happy New Year!

Under the Banner of Heaven keeps calling out to me.... I am trying to avoid acknowledging that :P

>311 carlym: What does it mean to be really devout/faithful? I feel like your argument can be turned around to say that any good things people do in the name of religion are equally just things they would do anyway, so that religion is ultimately irrelevant when it comes to action. I'm not sure that's entirely true. It's definitely a very interesting topic; I'll look forward to seeing your thoughts on Our Search for Happiness, since I think that's the one I'm most likely to read from the list in 306.

#314: That's a very tough question, in part because I don't think we can ever know for sure what's in someone else's heart and mind. I do think there are people who do bad things genuinely believing that God calls them to do those things. I think they're wrong, but that's a different issue. My argument is just that I think some extremists do not really have a religious basis for their actions--they just use religion as an excuse--and that some people are mentally ill.

From my perspective (Methodist), faith is not dependent on good works. The idea is that being Christian and having faith makes a person want to do good works, but you don't have to do a certain amount of good things to be faithful or be saved, or even to have an explicitly religious reason for doing something good. Doing good things becomes part of who you are; you don't have to feel that God explicitly calls you to do a specific good thing. (Sorry to hijack this thread--please tell me if you want this discussion elsewhere, Jennifer!)

Zoe and Carly - interesting thoughts.
I think it's pretty hard to quantify something like religion. For example, while I believe deeply the things I believe, I could not possibly prove them to anyone, and wouldn't try. I generally go back to whether a person's actions reflect what they say they believe or not. Generally, I think actions tell us better than anything what a person believes. Call it what you will, religion or something else, our deeply held beliefs are reflected in our actions. For me personally, to be devout/faithful means that I will make every effort to live what I believe and to defend it where necessary, and accord others the same privilege. That sounds a bit pompous I don't mean it to - it's hard work, and scary sometimes. :)

Hi Kathleen - I hear you on the avoidance. I have avoided the book for years on a basic reluctance to read about sick people. I picked it up this month thinking that I needed to know what was in it. I am generally sorry I read it, except for the great conversations it has stimulated. Much like any lurid telling of true or fictional crime, it left me feeling like I needed a wash.

I am sitting here with sunshine pouring in my windows, not a cloud in sight, and yet I have been promised 100% chance of snow by 11 am. Huh.

For anyone who is interested:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=98143170

Matchless, read by the author on All Things Considered.

Hi Jenn,

I tried to read Personal History when it first came out. I didn't get very far--maybe 75-100 pages and when we moved, I passed it on. I think I'll look at it again in the library since you and Stasia both seemed to like it.

The Cruelest Month is the next in the series I need to read. I'm glad they finally explain the Arneau case. Even in the last one, A Fatal Grace, I often had trouble figuring out who was speaking so that's my one complaint about this series at the moment. But I want to continue because everyone raves about Books 5 and 6.

I've saved your message about the books you recommend on LDS. I've never been religious so know almost nothing about any religion but would like to learn. I've really enjoyed the discussion on your thread recently.

Uh, OK, clouds are here.

Hi Pat! I'm glad I'm not the only one losing track of the characters, however briefly.
I love this about this LT group - how we can have discussions on things that are deeply personal without animosity. LOL - religion and politics are similar in that way. If you really want to get people worked up (generally speaking) just bring up religion or politics. I have really appreciated the people visiting my thread to comment, while passionate, at the same time respectful and thoughtful about what they say. So many comments have been really thought provoking.

Book #173
Matchless

Matchless was very short, and more true to the original Hans Christian Anderson story than I expected. Even though it is in some ways predictable, I liked how things worked out for the boy - a new family and more comforts. I liked the connection between him and the little match girl, how she saved his life at the end and how he was such a sweet brother to his new sisters. One thing I've always loved about the HCA fairy tale is how the little match girl is given images of comfort as she is dying. One likes to think of being comforted while dying.

Book #174
Safe Haven

A short and predictable read about a woman who escapes her abusive husband and makes a new life in a small town. She eventually falls in love, her abusive husband finds her and the expected violence results, followed by the expected happy ending.

I guess I needed a mental vacation after Personal History.

The faith/works debate is one that fascinates me. In part, I think, because I would struggle more with a faith that did not include works. i.e., even in a faith that doesn't require good works for salvation, is someone worthy who overlooks the opportunity to do good and relieve pain when they can? On the other hand, people who do good works and then tell the beneficiaries that they should thank God, because God made them perform the good works, are anathema to me. Like the woman who pays for the extra groceries of the woman in line in front of her when the money isn't enough, and then instead of just saying, don't worry, you're welcome, says, OK, now listen to what I believe, because that's why I helped you -- it wasn't just to be helpful.

Rambling, but...

I know I posted this somewhere else earlier this year, but here it is again -- a poem of mine that I like to think embodies the good side of any religion. It's by Leigh Hunt:

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An Angel writing in a book of gold:

Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?" The Vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."

"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the Angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerily still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one who loves his fellow men."

The Angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And, lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest!

Has the snow made an appearance? We have several inches already, with no signs of slowing.

Suzanne - great poem. My dad used to quote that to us. I have always loved it.

Hi Anne. We have snow, but not as much as you do yet. Maybe an inch. I hope it picks up. We are ready for a real snow.

#321: Protestants (including me) believe that we don't receive salvation because we're worthy; we receive salvation by the grace of God, who forgives our sins, including the failure to always do the right thing. There isn't a tally of good and bad because we could never reach a level of goodness to deserve salvation. I know Catholics and others believe differently, but I'm not that informed about those beliefs.

I agree that it's annoying when people make a big deal out of why they did a good thing, and I think that makes it seem like they're seeking extra praise or thanks, which is not the point. I like the poem, too!

I'm not religious by nature, but I can see the value of certain religious practices that guide people to serious thinking. People can be nice and helpful without religious or philosophical thought, but thoughtfulness and example can lead people to do much more than is reflex.

That said, I don't like the 'I did it to get saved' attitude either. It's interesting to me that in Jewish ethics, there are many levels of charity, but the most valued is the one where the receiver doesn't even know he or she has been helped, and certainly not who the helper was. The value is between the giver and God, or the giver's conscience.

I am very uncomfortable with people who seek recognition for their good works. A glaring example for me is Oprah Winfrey having entire shows about stuff she's giving to people. I think it's great she uses her vast resources to help others, I'm just uncomfortable with the public display of it. I suppose it's human nature, we do like to be thanked...but the goal in Christianity and I suppose most religions is supposed to be the same as you describe above (325) - Jewish ethics at the highest level.

Corinthians 13 3-5: 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

I think that pretty well sums it up. The "vaunteth not itself" and "seeketh not her own" parts especially.

#326 Exactly. If you ask Oprah and others who are high profile donors, they argue that it's to motivate others to follow suit. Well, maybe, but there is a lot of self-congratulation underway. I also like the approach in Jewish ethics that you mention, Judy.

Great discussion! Thank you all.

I enjoyed Under the Banner of Heaven but also took it to be a true crime story about specific people who broke away from mainstream LDS.

I wonder if you know anything about Mormon America by Richard Ostling? I'm sure I learned about it on LT and that is what inspired me to buy it. It has a positive blurb from the New York Times so it is at least that credible.

I loved reading the thoughtful and thought provoking discussion on this thread. I believe that curiosity can be encouraged or squelched, but I'm not convinced that it is possible to create it in someone who doesn't have the trait.

I do think that Oprah, Bill Gates etc can inspire generosity from others. Whether that or glory is their primary motivation I have no idea.

Snow - YEA!!

Cold - I could do without the bitter cold.

I walked the dog this morning in the sunshine but could see the clouds moving down from the north. We have as much as a couple of inches out there now. Take what we can get...:) It is icy out there though.

I know what you mean about Ralph as his marvelous narration. *swoon*

Jenn

Happy New Year to you!

#326: I agree with you, Jenn.

OK - I am officially closing this thread and inviting you to join me in 2011.

http://www.librarything.com/topic/105934

Happy New Year, Jenn. See you next year

Sneaking back in to add a book...thanks to Stasia. I am pretty excited though because after I hit 150 books I thought, maybe I could get 175...

Book #175
Roller Skates

I read this as a child and loved it. Set in NY in the 1890's. A young girl is left with one of her school teachers while her parents travel to Italy for her mother's health. She is a feisty, lovable character and enjoys the unusual freedom of life without servants and governess. She makes friends with everyone, and helps those she can. A sweet, old fashioned story.

Happy New Year, Jenn! Thanks for helping make this a great year with the 75ers!

> 250

Jenn, thanks for posting your lengthy criticism of Jon Krakauer's book. I have that book (Under the Banner of Heaven) on my TBR shelf, but never felt like reading it yet. I'm marking your post so that, when I get around to reading the book, I'll have your post to which to refer. I live in Rockville, Maryland, not too far from Kensington where one of the LDS temples stands. My association with people of your faith has always been positive. I'm sure that, as with most religions, one's take on a specific religion has to do with bad propaganda, sterotypes, or a personal negative experience.

It's nice to have you post your rebuttal to Krakauer's stand on this issue. Perhaps it might help people to read the book with more of an eye to balance now that they can read your post at the same time. At least, we know that you'll be here to help us understand LDS. As a Jew, it seems as if I, too, have to defend my religion all the time against misperceptions. *sigh*

Thanks for speaking up in defense of your religion.

> 257

. I once had some friends (I won't say which religious faith) tell me how sad they were that I would be going to hell

I'd also been told that I and my husband are going to burn in hell. I'll meet you there, Suzanne! :)

Oops! Sorry that I did not read far enough down to realize this thread was already closed. I had a gut reaction to your post about Krakauer's book and just had to get it out at once! :)