Swaptree err Swap.com adds fees

Sorry I know this isn't bookmooch per se, but I know a lot of you trade on other sites as well, and I was wondering what swaptree members think about the fees they are adding?

I will be leaving their site and sticking with bookmooch and PBS. I never had much luck with ST. I honestly feel like a good percentage of their members would be happier with BM or PBS, at least those on there to trade books.

If you are a ST member you probably got an email from them about the fees. If not, you can read about it on their message board: http://www.swap.com/WebFrmThreadView.aspx?id=89965

Doesn't sound like something I would pay for, and I don't like the idea that they would require a credit card. If you know people who are leaving, perhaps you could give them a *nudge* towards BM? *hint hint*

I saw that. I'll be leaving, as soon as 1 person marks my book received. (They've had it for over a week now - grrr.)

Ugh.

I've never been a member of swaptree/swap, but I guess now I never will be.

And on a related rant, this is the reason I *had* to leave eBay, after being a very active user for years. I logged on one day after a few months away, and no more money orders allowed. No more options for those of us who can't afford all the fees attached to credit cards.

I get annoyed, sometimes, when I realize just how MANY online sites I can't use because they won't accept anything but credit cards.

I think it's tacky to post other sites on the ST message boards, but I've already had a ton of PMs from people asking me, and I've sent them all here to LT to read the comparison I posted a month or so ago comparing the three major book swapping sites (BM, PBS, ST).

>#4

Heather, the merchants on eBay aren't allowed to suggest money orders as a payment option (because eBay owns PayPal, and eBay wants to keep all those fees), but they are allowed to accept them if the customer wishes to pay via that method. If you ask, you will find that the majority would be more than happy to take a money order.

>6 MsMixte: Hell, I'd be happy to be able to accept checks!

Huh.
I've never been a Swaptree/Swap.com fan, so I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that as people leave those sites (and hopefully migrate to PBS & BM) more of my wishlist books will get listed and I'll be able to go on a massive point-spending spree!!

Hey, a girl can dream...

#8 - What she said! ;-)

We hope you will stay on with us @ Swap.com. We are trying to improve the service with SafeSwap...and also create a path to sustainability with our business.

We arrived at these changes with extensive dialogue with our members. It was not just an idea in the office.

We want you to have some luck @ Swap.com. Swap on Ranbowgirl!

SwapChief

We are looking at all options. We understand that credit cards dont prove solution for all of our members.

SwapChief

I would love your analysis. Please send to me Jeff@swap.com. I am the SwapChief... the CEO of Swap.com. Thanks.

Jeff, as long as we have your input here...I didn't understand the e-mail that was sent out.

What, exactly, are the fees for? Don't the members pay postage when they send items out? If they don't send the item, how is the intended recipient out financially?

Just a question, not a judgement. I haven't yet decided where I stand.

Sorry Jeff, but it's been awhile since I took a beating like I did today on your message boards. That only made me much more resolute in my decision to leave.

I wasn't that crazy about the site, but I found it interesting. Here is why I will be leaving:

- The new system will cost me over a dollar more per trade. I currently pay for postage at the post office. The package weight is always accurate, and I never buy DC. I have sent ~800 books between all of the sites I am on, and I have never had a single book go lost. I am sure it will happen eventually, but the few bucks I am out in a point is a great saving compared to if I always bought DC.

- I mainly trade books, and have much better luck at (what will now be) lower prices on Bookmooch and Paperbackswap. If I was someone who traded a lot of games or CDs I might feel differently. I'm sure most of your gamers will stick around.

- I just found out today that there was a 500 limit to the wishlist, and that when I imported my bookmooch wishlist, it probably caused my account to be ineligible for incoming trade requests. I never had warning about that. The other possibility is the fact that I rejected my first two requests (one of which was due to an error in your database). I NEVER received an incoming request after that, and those were both over a year ago. In the past few months I constantly had wishlisted books available. I tried to make trades all of the time, only ~1/4 were accepted.

- The errors in the database. Oh gosh the errors. And they NEVER got fixed. Or responded to.

- The combining of ISBNs in the database. Lots of people are looking for a specific edition of a book. Combining a regular paperback version, large print version, hardback version, and graphic novel of a book just doesn't work for a lot of people. Same for widescreen and fullscreen DVDs.

- The inability to add anything to the database that is missing. Yes, the form is there, but I don't know why you bother. None of the items I tried to add over a year ago are in there.

- The tone of the site. It's just not a friendly community, at least not on the message boards.

- The giant pain in the ass it is to delete books from your have list or want list. I would consider leaving my account open and just deleting everything from inventory, but it would probably take me an hour! So I will be closing my account once my last trade is received.

Best of luck with your new direction for the site. I hope it brings in the revenue you need and makes your customers happy. You'll have to excuse "freeloaders" like me who are happier elsewhere.

From the announcement link above it appears that these new fees are being enacted for the benefit and safety for Swap.com members, as it's all for your own good, why complain?

Well, many are, and others are just leaving. Their forum has quite a few exodus threads, followed by the testy replies of Jeff and his employees.

Seems like the whole scheme hinges on USPS delivery confirmation.

The problem is, of course, that delivery confirmation is uneven at best -- quite a few postal carriers will scan some packages and not others (depending on how busy they are, how clearly the package is marked, etc...), as well as scanning if they take the box to the wrong house, or leave it outside, or at the front desk of an office building, or any other number of situations.

So the notion of charging people's credit cards every time this happens will bring endless problems, no?

Perhaps CEO Jeff has a solution for this and the other issues raised above, let's see if he does :)

I invited him to come. I don't think it's really helpful to bait him, do you? He's trying to figure out how to make his site work better, and be sustainable, right?

I'm not sure how anyone here was baiting him? I think there are a lot of legitimate issues raised with the change in site policy. He's addressed some, danced around some, and not addressed others (from what I have seen on the swaptree forum).

If he chooses not to reply here, that is totally fine. I don't have a problem with that. They made a policy change, and have requested feedback.

Fair enough. I find "Wow, a real live CEO, right here on the Bookmooch LT forum, what excitement" a little taunting.

Drive by, Tim. account opened today.

Yes, I opened this LT account as as the forum on swaptree is so heavily.. um 'moderated.'

The OP would be forbidden from openly discussing other trading sites as we are doing here for instance. And although Swap.com employees claim the other trading sites have similar policies (just discussed on their forum), they most certainly do not in my experience, as open discussion/comparisions of trading sites is common on BM and PBS.

I removed the offending line as Tim did not like it and as I certainly respect his site and the fact that he does not delete posts that offend him (as far as I know, I think we would know if he did), and no mention had been made that CEO Jeff had been invited to come to this thread.

>20 fiona500:

Thanks for the note. I hold no brief for any site, other than this one. If they do censor mentions of other sites, well, I can understand why. The temptation to do so is surely great. We do not, but it can make me itch when it happens!

Not addressing any specific site, I think it's worthwhile thinking about how a swap site can make money. I have a "thing" against the idea that everything online should be free. It tends to produce some very bad things—things many are only now realizing are bad:

1. Companies that build up audiences in order to acquire effective social lock in. Then you flip the company to a new owner and everyone is screwed.
2. Put another way--and not first by me--free sites don't treat you like customers because you're NOT the customer. You're the crap they sell to their real customers--advertisers and future acquirers.
3. Sites that monetize in a hundred indirect and variously icky ways. Our main competitor has blinking advertisements and videos about soap, and they do everything in their power to make you spam your friends with invites. Paying money is straightforward. It cuts through the nonsense.
4. Sites that have "users" but no customers. If you don't how a free site is treating you, well, I suggest you should go fly a kite. It's free. What are you complaining about? If you don't like a site you pay for you have the moral authority of a customer. The site owes you. You matter.

I think we've seen these effects more and more. Facebook isn't constantly opening up your data and selling it in variously creepy ways because that's what you want. They're doing it because you're already there and it's hard to leave. Now's the time to start behaving like they always intended. The joke's on you.

Anyway, that's my take. Again, I hold no brief for any swap company. The only one I know a bit is bookmooch, mostly because the founder and I have carried on a many-year conversation about such things.

re your point #2: but... but.... LibraryThing does just that. Many users here ARE free users, and they are treated as customers, treated with respect, listened to. Maybe most sites don't do that, but LT does, and it's NICE to have that happen.

Imo, at least, it's not swap sites charging for use that gets me, it's free swap sites *suddenly* deciding to charge for use. It's getting established in a community, on a site that you like and use, and the fact that it's free isn't really important and yunno, maybe I'd even pay for it if I was asked to, or if there were "premium features" offered for a fee, because it's a dang good site. And then all of the sudden it's not such a great site anymore because they've decided to change things all around without feedback or warning. (I'm not citing Swap.com specifically because honestly I don't know the details with them, but this is the normal way it happens elsewhere).

I think most of us would agree with Tim's sentiments.

LT is a model of how a site can offer a quality experience to both non-paying and paying members. A 'premium' membership with full functionality is the best way to advance to sustainability for most once 'free' sites.

As Heather mentions, many of us have often had better experiences on non-pay sites than on pay sites, so I think we really need to look at individual web sites and user experience on each.

Take a look through the forum over there, it is not so much that it is not a 'free' site (there was a previous fee structure) that has generated such discontent, but rather the way they have chosen to further monetize the site, and the related changes to site usage.

It's interesting to see how various swapping sites generate revenue. Bookmooch is FREE, I think their main revenue is donations and amazon sales. But you also get a lot less features and support than other sites (though the abuse team at bookmooch seems to be great).

PBS sells postage, box-o-books memberships, amazon sales, and their book bazaar forum. It's definitely a slicker site, and has more support and better message boards.

Swap shot themselves in the foot on the amazon option when they decided to combine ISBNs. They've focused on user fees which is not usually the most popular idea.

Different sites can do things different ways. *shrug* I don't think anyone here really thinks that these sites should be run for free. But when the other sites I use manage to generate revenue without charging me fees, and I have a MUCH better trading experience there as well, I'm not going to start paying for subpar service.

And I do donate monthly to bookmooch. I'm not afraid to throw a little money behind something I believe in.

I suspect Bookmooch is free because the founder made a mint selling expensive email software, and doesn't need the money. I'm glad I don't have to compete with that. Although, actually, our main competitor is the scion of one of his city's top families. Grumble :)

Yes, when people ask me about BookMooch, I point out that the founder made a fair bit of money, but that he is using it to "give back". I'm very grateful that he started BM with his own dosh and now can run it on voluntary donations and Amazon commissions and - best of all, as with LT - no advertising!

I think that it's important to point out that John Buckman not only invested money into BookMooch, but also uncounted hours of his time, as well as the work done by his volunteer group of admin.

As for LT, that's a different animal. I started with a free account and then upgraded when I realized that I was spending a large proportion of my free computer time here and I really wanted to catalog all my books. LT is such a strong and attractive site for its chosen target that allowing free accounts increases the number of paid accounts.

As to how a for-profit book swap site could work, I'm not sure. Maybe by targeting people who are looking for a purely impersonal and effective way to quickly trade popular books? That wouldn't be a bad niche to serve, although it precludes much of the LT and BookMooch communities.

>27 RidgewayGirl:

Oh, no question. I think John's done great work. And, indeed, he doesn't currently have the first-place in popularity.

Can someone (an active swap.com user who understands the changes) take a look at Swap.com section in WikiThing? If possible, make any necessary edits yourself. If you don't want to edit the wiki, let me know what needs to be changed.

http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/Comparison_of_Book_Swapping_Websites

This thread piqued my interest. I went and took a look at their site and have to say I was really shocked at some of the comments left by their staff on the message boards. It seems that they have gotten way out of touch with their customer base. People looking to swap are generally looking for to trade items in as simplified a manner as possible and for as little out-of-pocket expense as necessary; at least it seems that way to me. Adding fees and a new replacement system would seem to defeat what the customer there is looking for. If a person wanted the item that badly, it would seem that they'd just buy it from a brick and mortar store or a large online retailer.

So what's the best model for a swap site to be something other than a charity.

I'm thinking the best system would be free swapping, but if you want to swap more than X times per month you need a membership. The membership costs Y. That would allow you to get free-only people. You'd only start to pay when you used the site a lot--at which point you'd know it was worth it.

>31 timspalding:

That might work, if the model was disclosed up front. It would also let you defer asking for payment info from users until they were comfortable with the site.

You'd have to pretty vigilant against people opening up multiple accounts in order to stay below the activity threshold. In addition to fee-avoidance, multiple accounts degrade everyone's user experience (as they move books from inventory to inventory and cause ill will by reneging on swaps, a minor problem that sometimes occurs today with people who offer the same books on both BookMooch and PBS).

#21:

No need to itch, Tim :) Seeing other sites discussed, by people who are manifestly still here, only increases my trust that this is the right place to be. Social proof in action!

(And on the other hand, a ban on discussing other sites would just make me suspicious, and lend weight to the notion that those other sites must be better. Why else would they be so feared that even their names may not be spoken?)

Booksfree.com launched a new book swap service this summer called BooksfreeSwap.com. At BFS, the recipient pays the postage and the entire web site is clean and simple.

#34 USA Only

#34 - What is the "small S/H fee" ? That doesn't sound free to me.

And you know that if the recipient pays the shipping costs, it'll be more than just the media mail cost of mailing the book. You know, a small surcharge and DC and a nominal fee for processing, etc...

I haven't seen any book trading site with lower costs than BookMooch.

Although, it has a very slick site. Not many books, though. I looked for several, including ones available on BookMooch and some highly wishlisted ones, and nothing came up as available. I also wonder what the impetus is to list your books, when you have to pay to get books, so why would you send books? I couldn't get any information as you need to sign up to learn how it works.

I am happy to say that I am firmly planted @ bookmooch. I like the process, the access to book owners and their mooching/giving history and especially the people.

I just took a look at the BooksFree site and it looks a lot like BookIns, which I also use from time to time.

I do find that BookIns often has some really hard to find books. The only problem I ever find there is the points system. I don't understand how they achieve the ratings.

Does anyone know what the fees are for booksfreeswap? I can't find out any details without joining!

OK. rainbowgirl28, so I went ahead and joined since it didn't ask for any credit card info at that point. I don't think it would be proper of me to copy and paste their info here so I will summerize.

The greatest downfall I see is that it's a direct trade. So if you want a book that you see on the site, the person who owns that book has to want something that you have.

To actually "activate" an account you need to pay $10 which goes into your shipping and handling fund. When you send a book, you download free postage from them. At the same time, you are presumably getting a book from someone else, that postage is deducted from your fund. Kind of like a pre-paid credit card, I guess.

There is also a 25 cent monthly account maintenance fee that they will deduct from that fund each month.

Personally, I don't think it would work for me just on the direct swap alone. I would end up taking books I don't really want just so I could give someone a book they do want.

Jeff, Swaptree now charges and decided to I lavet after being a good member for well over a year. I not only had 4 people not send their trades to me but I received unacceptable items from others. 3 of which I sent to your corporate office to YOU so you could see the condition, and I never heard a word back from you.
Your new fees will not cover this.
I found a much better place now.

I left swaptree too, sorry to make thist decision but I was very unhappy after I saw the new rules with fees being charges to my credit card monthly.
Happy I landed here.

I was fed up with swaptree fees and thought bookmooch was excellent. Now I'm so upset. After racking up a bunch of points at BM they locked me out of my account and cancelled all my picks. They stated I had another account last year, which I have never had. I probably spent a hundred dollars mailing people books and never received one in returned before they locked me out. I don't know if this will get worked out. It is just one more kick to an already impossible year.

At least with swaptree, paying the fees, I received a book. Hope this doesn't happen to anyone else.

>45 lubooks:

Keep in contact with the admins at bookmooch, they're usually really good at sorting that stuff out, it just might take a few days as most are volunteers.

We had someone else post on here (or maybe it was you?) who posted a lot of books that got mooched right away, and they got locked out of their account temporarily until some of the books they sent were marked received.

Because of the way bookmooch is set up, it's easy for a new member to come in and abuse the site by pretending to mail a bunch of books and never sending them. I think you'll be able to resolve it once people start receiving your books.

I can see that this is a fairly old thread, but has anyone tried the 'swap' portion of Good Reads? It's not really a swap--people make books available and you can 'buy' the books by paying postage + a little extra for site administration.

It's very well run.The site provides mailing labels, the layout of information is good, the traders are encouraged to give good information on condition. Also, it's my impression that the quality of the books is a little higher than on other trading sites.

For those of you unfamiliar with Good Reads, the rest of the site is something like Library Thing, but I don't use it as my catalog.

I've both sent and received books on the GR bookswap. I was pleased with the receiving portion -- the book was in excellent condition and well worth the swap fee I paid -- but I was less pleased with the sending-out portion, mostly because so few of my books ended up being requested (and on BM they would have been considered highly desirable).

I peeked at the swap.com message boards yesterday, and I am so glad I left the site! It looks like nothing has improved since I left last fall.

I have just signed up on this site after being with Swaptree (Swap.com). I knew things would change when they became Swap.com but I must say from the beginning I was not thrilled with the type of comments on their forums. As a new member I asked a few questions, that some felt I should have known if I had read ALL the instructions. Well, sometimes I goof and miss things, but the nasty comments that were fired at me were a total surprise. Welcome to the neighborhood, NOT!
And now the changes to the site re the fees etc made me decide to cancel my account there.
I just want to swap books and if possible, CDs and DVDs on a nice, friendly site. Drama, I don't need.
I'm looking forward to new swaps on a new site.
Hello.

Welcome Zane!

Bookmooch is really only set up for books, but I also use the Paperbackswap family: swapaDVD and swapaCD to trade DVDs and CDs.

SwapaCD charges 50 cents a transaction but the other two you only pay actual postage costs. You can buy online postage but you don't have to.

Be sure to check out the newbie thread here for lots of helpful tips for using bookmooch. No one here would ever be mad at your for not reading every single letter of the help documentation or whatever on the bookmooch website. :)

Glad you found the LT forums, as the forums actually on bookmooch are not very well designed.

zannewho, check this thread for informal DVD/CD swapping
http://www.librarything.com/topic/100121

I hate that i luved swaptree but i am switching to bookmooching :) seams well free and easy :P