Sibyx leaps into February

Already a new month!
WORDS NEW TO ME:
Akrasia the state of lacking better judgement, of lacking command over oneself..... collected from The Thief of Time.

SHE'S HERE!


Currently reading (most recently begun first):

Chanur's Venture C.J. Cherryh SF
The Magician King Lev Grossman fantasy
♬ The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris David McCullough NF
God's Philosophers James Hannam NF
The Thief of Time: Philosophical Essays on Procrastination Chrisoula Andreou, ed NF
Infinite Jest David Foster Wallace contemp F
February New Yorkers: 3 issues (one double)- 1 down, 2 to go

February Reading:

15. ♬ The Mistress's Daughter A.M. Homes memoir ****
16. The Pride of Chanur C.J. Cherryh Bk 1 SF ****1/2
17. Mrs Ames E. F. Benson F ****
18. ♬ Nation Terry Pratchett F (alternate uni)
19. Chanur's Legacy C.J. Cherryh Bk 4 SF ****1/2

January
1. The New Yorker: December 2011, 3 issues (one double)
2. Coventry Helen Humphreys F *****
3. The Reavers of Skaith Leigh Brackett Book 3 SF ****1/2 for the trilogy
4. Ender's Game Orson Scott Card SF ****1/2
5. Ender's Shadow Orson Scott Card SF ****
6. Bad Magic Stephan Zielinski Urban fantasy***
7. The Moon Pool A. Merritt Adventure/fantasy/SF classic 1919 ****
8. Wuthering Heights Emily Bronte ♬/Reread F
9. The Name of the Wind Patrick Rothfuss ***** Fantasy
10.The Man Who Loved China Simon Winchester history ♬ ****
11.She Drove Without Stopping Jaimy Gordon F **** 1/2
12. One Way of Love Gamel Woolsey ****1/4 Virago fiction
13. The New Yorker: January, 5 issues
14. The Life and Letters of Tofu Roshi Susan Ichi Su Moon***** humor

January Summary:

8 magazines, one biography, one memoir and ten novels:
--Of the RL novels: - Four by women, one set in UK 1940's & present, one set in Yorkshire, early 1800, one set in Ohio and LA and the space between seen from car window, one set in the 1920's mainly in New York, upstate and London.
--Of the science fiction and fantasy novels: one by a woman set on a faraway planet in the future, one set in the Pacific and underneath in a 'Lost World' in the 1920's, one set in an unknown world, time unknown, two set in a school for young warriors in orbit around a future Earth, one set in a San Francisco beset with very evil nasty and invisible beings.
--Of the non-fiction one was a bio and the other a memoir of a sort, but very wise and funny.
--All the books by women touched on the vulnerability of young women, esp as regards sexuality even the humorous memoir had a little subtheme of that insofar as it is part of what a serious student of Buddhism has to address one way or another....
--All the books by men were either set in schools where an extremely unusual young man on whom everyone will depend for salvation is the protagonist or that young man is grown up and already out in the world as a not-so-young man doing same. This would include the bio of Joseph Needham who definitely fits the 'larger-than-life' mold. One of these heroes was the creation of a woman, btw, but there were no novels this month featuring a man struggling with sexually coming of age -- they were way too busy saving the world.

Only one book, the urban fantasy was less than four stars, a 'stellar' beginning!

I have no idea what I saved this for!

We await a very nasty storm -- no -- I correct that -- just stepped outside and it is under way -- 'noisy' snow, snick snick snick.

Am I first?

eta: Yay! Yes I am. When's the threadwarming party?

Found you! I think had I been you with the weather forecast, I would have hopped in the car today, had the daughter go home with a friend after school, and driven straight down and straight back as quick as possible! But then I have a lot of problems with delayed gratification. ;-)

After looking out the door just now I am seriously thinking about a bit of the last of the eggnog with some rum in it. Seriously nasty stuff coming down.

Helloooooo! Where are the puppies? I heard there would be puppies here.

A snowstorm is lovely to look at from INSIDE the house, eggnog or no.

Sandy K

6: I am seriously thinking about a bit of the last of the eggnog with some rum in it.
Well I'm not going to discourage you...

This thread won't last through February with a puppy.

Hi, gotta be quick..according to trainers, we are supposed to name our dogs in one syllable names,easier for them supposedly. But my dogs are Lyla and Remy and Darla, and Rae, so...and they all have nicknames. Have fun, whatever you do. I thought Bean was adorable!

>8 qebo: This thread won't last through February with a puppy
lol

Hi btw:)

#10 You're right!

Yay, thread! Yay, PUPPY!!!
Boo. Hiss. Snow snick.

The puppies have arrived! The puppies have arrived! Aaaahhh...so cute.

Now I must go hug my cat.

Sandy K

Lucy ~ I knew you wouldn't make it to the end of the month without another thread! Congrats on number 2 and will be following as usual of course.

Hi Lucy - I just speed-lurked through your previous300 post thread and my heart is melting with all the corgi puppy pics. They are just too adorable! Congratualtions on your new addition!

Oh and I also loved Coventry!

Great reading for January. Hope you're all warm and toasty inside. The weather sounds frightful.

#15 Speed-lurked is a good one!

Looking forward to puppy, name and more good books...

I can't remember who posted the link to Bandit the corgi puppy on youtube (and I am too lazy to go back and check) but thankyou! I want a Bandit the corgi puppy now....

>18 souloftherose:: 'twas me ... happy to help, Heather!

You had me at "corgi."

The storm fizzled a bit, went directly from snow to rain, but that is FINE. Snow days are fun, but things get postponed and mixed up. My dau's school has A days and B days and when there is a snow day everything you might have planned for the future (doc appts, say or whatever) get stuck back a whole day..... it can be very maddening!

There have been some epic bursts of wind, I imagine there'll be tree damage in the woods.

Decided to start fresh with your new thread, Lucy. What terrific looking puppies! Crave more pictures (don't tell Willie).

Just catching up on a couple of days away from the threads and am so excited for you about your soon-to-be-home puppy.
Our kittens are now discovering our backyard, they have started climbing trees and chasing butterflies.
I'm off to find out more about The Man who loved China.

I should say about Simon Winchester that what makes his books work for me is that he is really good at picking topics that interest me (such as the making of the OED) or something like this, or Krakatoa, or early geology -- he's a fairly plodding writer in many ways -- although even there he seems to have some awareness so he is careful most of the time not to get caught up in minutia. Someone like Tony Horwitz seems not only to have an uncanny ability to pick fascinating subjects, but he is also a very very good writer -- although -- he has a more 'hands on' approach too, of researching but also finding ways to participate in whatever he's writing about in a direct way.

>24 sibylline: he does write on some interesting topics doesn't he?

Oh my gosh... I can't get over that adorable puppy picture... the cuteness!!! I can't stand it!!! *keels over*

Ooooooooh! Just saw the pic up top! Too too cute!!! :-)

You'll have only yourself to blame for getting a bunch of nonsensical gushing messages like this one if you keep posting those puppy pics, you DO know that Lucy, right?

#24: Winchester and Horowitz are two of my favorite nonfiction writers. With the exception of his last book, I believe I have read all of Tony Horowitz's titles.

I love the puppy pics up top. Makes me want to go out and get a corgi right now.

Oh, that pic at the top is practically unfair it's so cute. Possibly illegal!!
Your girl is very cute back there, peering over her sibs' heads at the camera.
And I'm with Ilana -- keep posting those and you're going to hear girlish squeals of delight and other silly sounds. Books, schmooks. gimme the puppies.

I am so with you Stasia I love Horwitz's writing. He might be my favorite NF writer too.

One more thing I love about LT is how much we all love our animals - as much as our books, maybe even more!


Orphaned and homeless, but with a small income, Mariana, raised very alone by her grandmother at the failing seaside plantation in South Carolina, goes to New York. There she attracts a young Englishman, Alan Douglas. Mariana is elf thin, dark haired and dark-eyed, bewitching to him, but he has a 'cold' nature. He is in love with her and reasonably kind, but his aim is to bed her - he is interested in little else about her, other than the lust she arouses in him, precisely because she is, to paraphrase, a wild thing, and not at all prepared for or interested in sex. Woolsey makes it clear though that Alan loves her as much as he has loved anyone, that he opens up to her and makes an effort that is met in part. One of the joys of the novel is that nothing is in black and white. Having just read a novel about a woman with an ardently sexual nature, it is interesting to read about a (beautiful) woman with no interest. Lonely Mariana has a child's desires and outlook and unfortunately much of her attraction to men are these qualities - a very dark implication. Alan and Mariana marry, they are not happy together but no one speaks openly about it, she gets pregnant..... the doctors won't allow it to go on, Mariana's health appears to be pre-tubercular (is that possible?) and to everyone's relief (Alan loathes pregnant women) the child is aborted. The description of the procedure is a demonstration Mariana's deep immaturity for she feels nothing but relief and rather shocks the doctors and nurses with her cheerfulness. This passage sums up Mariana's usual state of mind pretty well:
"She lay all day listening to the wind rushing by the port-hole and watching the dark blue water change, as the ship rolled, to clear blue sky. She was careless and indifferent, and happy with a sort of vegetable happiness, as a wild daisy perhaps is happy on a bright day, simply aware of sun and water and air."
There is a dreamy distance to the narrative, it's a fairly close third person and yet due to this quality of Mariana's personality the reader feels some of the same 'at arm's length' that her lovers feel. The sex act, for her, is always uncomfortably close to rape - she does not ever dare say no, as she feels that this is her 'payment' for what she wants, really, a warm place on the hearth, no more no less..... I can understand why publishing firms didn't want to touch it eighty years ago; there is a childlike frankness about sex, a naivete that makes Mariana's felt experience quite explicit and the implications are shocking. I've never read anything quite like it, a very original work. It was only published for the first time by Virago in the late 1980's. ****1/2

I'm adding a link to this fascinating place: Hervey . There is much about the book that is clearly directly derived from Woolsey's own experience - Mariana and Alan and then Mariana alone spend a lot of time at this colony (thinly disguised) in the summers and autumns....... utterly fascinating!!!!!
-There is also a delicious description of taking a boat up the Hudson to ... probably Kingston or thereabouts. Just lovely.

Some quotes:
Mariana and Alan - this is fairly typical -- she never bothers telling Alan to shut up and there is an implication that he would.....
"....Alan said that it was a sign of women's inferiority that they could se easily be taught to dance in choruses, all kicking at the same instant, standing on their heads at the same instant, falling over backwards at the same instant. Even more than prostitutes it showed how malleable women were: they could be taught to do anything - like trained seals.... Mariana felt entire antagonism to Alan as he talked. How tiresome he is, she thought unsympathetically, knowing all the time that there was some trouble in his mind, but not caring about it."

on gossiping:
"It gave her a feeling of futility. An entire evening spent in talking of the personal oddities of unimportant people seemed rather a waste of time." Hear hear!

During the abortion:
"This," she thought, "is one of the hours you have to pass through as best you may. There is nothing to be got from it, no interest, no enrichment of any sort. You live through it and feel it as little as you can. It is essentially evil and unfortunate. You are caught in it for an hour or longer, it maybe be. There is nothing to be done but live it out."

Mariana on men and women:
"She thought that perhaps the very difference of their reproductive organs had something to do with it. Man's were outside himself, used as a tool, not quite part of him, but something accompanying him. Women at their worst seemed merely to surround a womb as if they were the sodden clay around a stagnant pool." (!!!!)

"She felt there was a secret life that could only be lived in company. Alone it would be frightening, like straying too far from an empty house."

Cute puppy! Eagerly awaiting name!

Those Corgis are soooo cute!

(Puppiness! I just thought I'd mention that every single one of those puppies has ears!)

Those puppies are completely adorable!! I don't think I have ever seen a corgi in person before, too cute! love the ears

Interesting review of One Way of Love. I have this to read and didn't really know what to expect from it so thanks for that.

I was going to finish this post without mentioning the cuteness of those puppies but it's impossible.....Puppies!!! So adorable!!!

I can't quote it, it's too long, but on p.258 there is the best description I've ever read of a man, consumed with lust, interpreting 'No' and feeble physical protest followed by silence and passivity, as "consent". Chillingly done - that scene as much as any other would have prevented pub. of the book back then and is painful to read now. A part of me was saying "Kick the dude, Mariana" but that's not who she is. She isn't capable of that kind of self-defense.

>36 sibylline:: wow, that sounds powerful.

Very interesting review - and that's one of many VMC's I'd not even heard of. Did she write anything else?

I thought so, Laura. No, Genny other than poetry, I don't think so. She captivated LLewelyn Powys (John Cowper P's brother, with whose fiction I am a bit obsessed), Gerald Brenan and even Bertie Russell!!! She must have been something!

Great review of One Way of Love and nice to see the green cover when I was reading your thread. It's one that I've never heard of either - it's funny how some VMCs crop up over and over in the secondhand bookshops here but others don't (well, maybe not that funny, just like all other books, but I tend to notice the patterns more with the Viragoes). It does sound very powerful but I would need to be in the mood for it. I don't think I could stand too many of Alan's opinions in one sitting.

The puppies are lovely!

Fabulous review of One Way of Love. This I must look up!

One Way of Love went right onto the GFW.

Oh boy, puppies!!!

I've got you starred.

I dug up my copy of One Way of Love and read p. 258, Lucy. I remember wondering what the heck was wrong with Mariana when I read that yonks ago - did you think she was a wet noodle or was there something more to her?

Hi tui, I might have been tempted when younger to think of her as a wet noodle, and I agree M's degree of passivity is extreme, so you have to wonder at the story Woolsey is NOT telling about M's childhood, and maybe doesn't even know is implicit? On the other hand, we're all made differently and I can accept that M is the product of an isolated childhood added to a naturally shy quiet passive personality -- with that weird mix of knowledge that very observant people who grow up in a rural environment have, she's also quite well read in but in an idiosyncratic way, and also very smart. She's not a simple 'case'. On the spectrum, I've come to see there are people for whom sex, period, is problematical. Does that make any sense.

Oh I love that word 'yonks' . Makes me happy!

I'm adding another 'currently' book because there's no non-fiction in there -- The Thief of Time: Philosophical Essays on Procrastination. Curiously at the moment I am not having as much of a problem with it as I sometimes do, ratcheting down my goals and making fun of myself seem to help me a lot. (Like, if you ask me what I'm going to do today, I am likely to respond: "Finish my novel, do all the financial filing for 2011 and walk five miles.")

Now I'm adding that I finished up the January NYers. I'm still pleased and astonished every day that I am caught up!

I began The Thief of Time thinking.... oh I don't know, something to the effect that since I have such a depth of experience with procrastination how could I fail to experience at the very least the pleasure of self-recognition on virtually every page..... but now I'm not so sure. Chapter 1 had equations (read indignance in those italics) and sentences like: "Procrastination is one aspect of the universal tendency to discount future events hyperbolically." The latter four word phrase of that sentence crops up disturbingly often in this first essay which is trying to delineate procrastination's basic turf, the when why where whatfor of it as a phenomenon. Other mammals (mainly lab rats) get tested too for their tendencies to avoid work and botheration. Procrastination (avoidance) is distinguished from impulsivity (gravitational pull to immediate gratification/pleasure). But the conclusion goes like this: "....a preference for deferring effort, discomfort or boredom can never be entirely controlled. It is as fundamental as the shape of time and could well be called the basic impulse. WAIT! I THOUGHT YOU JUST SAID IMPULSE WAS PLEASURE DRIVEN?????????

So what is the driving force here? Is this is a serious book about the costs of procrastination to .... what? Or is it research underwritten by big business, in other words about productivity and not at all about your personal happiness/satisfaction quotient......

I have read only one essay, of 15. Two have titles that imply that procrastinating is a vice. a vice?

Procrastination has moral and ethical implications??????? Maybe, if you were hot off the Mayflower but......

And who could ever ever ever entertain for one jillionth of a second the idea that will power is anything more than a fantasy ? I've never noticed even the tiniest connection between it and getting anything done or losing a pound or...... not buying another book until I've relieved the pressure on my shelves...... or....Sigh.

Confession: I am reading David Foster Wallace at the moment, could that have anything to do with how I am responding to this book??????

Nobody get excited, I'm having fun. The next chapter has EVEN MORE formulas in it - "Economic Models of Procrastination".

But really, when I'm done with this book I am sending it to Dave Barry.

Dee, Cushla and Nancy are spot on - what a great review! Ashamed to admit I had not heard of it but on the wishlist it goes!

CONGRATULATIONS on having caught up on the NYers!
I guess I'm hot off the Mayflower. If I can't find anything else to feel guilty about, I'll feel guilty about procrastinating..........

The puppy scrum photo in #1 is just the cutest! I can only imagine the photos in store once your girl comes home.

I can see the chain of argument about procrastination having moral and ethical implications. If you procrastinate about unpleasant things, you defer dealing with stuff that could have moral/ethical ramifications, no? Or what about people who postpone breakups because they don't want the aggro that accompanies that? Doesn't that have a moral dimension, in the sense of messing with someone else's life? Just sayin'...

Ok, back to the puppies -- will you wait until she arrives and you have spent more time with her to decide on a name?

46: Ahem, touchstone: The Thief of Time.
could that have anything to do with how I am responding to this book??????
Well, whatever is producing this response, please continue... :-)
But really, when I'm done with this book I am sending it to Dave Barry.
LOL, literally.

Oh, the puppy picture has changed!

Lucy, I think you should continue reading that book tomorrow... or perhaps the day after that...

For now you should go back to the picture at the top of the screen and find you inner peace.

Well, yes, Suz, I am in part just being silly because the gap between what I was expecting and what I am getting is pretty wide. And because I suspect that no amount of testing of lab rats or humans can get much of anywhere with the 'problem' of procrastination. And truly, I am not so sure it is a problem, so much as a modality. A first principle! Conservation of energy!

Zen Buddhists, now, I am guessing they might see procrastination as the beginning of enlightenment!

Obviously time for me to slink off.... if I'm in a mood, blame it on Wallace!

Oh yes, I wouldn't have tolerated that kind of academic pretentiousness for three seconds. It's one thing if it's literature in your field that you must read; another if you're just generally curious. Piffle. There are other, better, books awaiting you.

Since it is all essays by different researchers (I suspect it's all in this newly hip field of decision theory????) I'll probably slog onward with it, I think there are 15 essays and I am bound to get something out of several of them, sez I, ever optimistic!

Popping in to add that weirdly the second essay, bristling with equations and sciencespeak is really interesting...... I'll have to report on each one as I go because each one addresses something different. Hope to finish #2 today.

Lastly -- I keep humor books in my loo and I cannot recommend this one more highly -- it is funny and subtle - that is, there are some pieces of brilliant and life-changing wisdom to be gleaned from it along with laughing. This is a reread. *****


The Life and Letters of Tofu Roshi by Susan Ichi Su Moon

Just stopping by to say hello. Love the puppy picture!

Was lurking about and had to stop and say---oooh, puppies!

And perhaps motivation to stop *procrastinating* on the promised puppy supposedly joining my own household

Now I realize I need to check the top of your thread for new puppy pictures. I will be following your comments about the procrastination book with interest.

>46 sibylline:: something to the effect that since I have such a depth of experience with procrastination how could I fail to experience at the very least the pleasure of self-recognition on virtually every page.....

I could just hug you for that sentence. It made me laugh out loud!

So on the puppy front. I bought a new crate (we need one for the bedroom and one downstairs/car), a new collar (so tiny!) and a toy..... We go to pick her up on Saturday. Crossed fingers re weather!

Work day today and errands and running around. (I'm in a momentary lull)..... somewhat grisly forecast for later so I hope I am home by 5 p.m.

Ooh! Puppy in 4 days!!!!

Weather, be kind! We want to see puppy!

Yay for the puppy! I've been following the story, but haven't commented. I LOVE the photo at the top of your thread!

Yay! The puppy countdown begins. :)

The second essay in my procrastination book was weirdly absorbing. I think the purpose of his argument was to prove that an economic model of procrastination has as much to contribute to the 'discussion' as say, neuroscience and psychology..... and I think what the writer means is that the concepts -- essentially gain, loss, bargaining, discounting (at a very very sophisticated level, certainly) -- of economics can contribute to understanding what procrastination 'looks' like...... it cannot explain it however, the writer makes that point. In some ways though all this essay revealed to me was that my initial concern -- that procrastination is regarded as a lose-lose type behaviour/choice/activitiy is undesirable and unproductive and uneverything. My daughter, interestingly, commented that she feels a lot of today's procrastination is a protective response to too much stimuli, too many conflicting demands...... I wonder? Anyhow, browsing ahead, I think that was the 'hardest' essay just in terms of getting through it. Thirteen to go!

LT is being weird and has eaten three posts this morning. This is the third time I've written this review.... it does get leaner and meaner each time!


First February book: Audio The Mistress's Daughter A.M. Homes
When she is 31 Homes is contacted by her birth mother and soon after by her birth father. It soon becomes apparent that both are emotionally stunted as each seems more interested in either'getting' something from her or holding her at arm's length rather than offering her anything remotely resembling unconditional positive regard - that is - liking her for herself because she is theirs. Homes struggles to balance her own emotions with trying to connect with them, but fails in the end with both; her mother dies, her father withdraws. To ameliorate her suffering Homes throws herself into genealogical research and something transformative happens. She becomes absorbed not only in the stories of the people to whom she is related but also to the stories of the false leads, her own adoptive family, everyone..... she no longer feels so alone as she reads about all these people, mostly immigrants, struggling to find their place in the American dream, some succeeding and others failing, some even going mad. Homes grows during the narrative from a somewhat stand-offish, prickly, and defended person, into some one whole and mature, deeply appreciative of those who love her for herself and able to let go of the rest and get on with living her life and having a family of her own. A great read for anyone who is interested in the journey that the young adopted adult is likely to go through at some time and also for those interested in genealogy. ****

Hi Lucy, I'm eagerly awaiting Saturday so you can get your puppy. The new picture is adorable! Keeping eyes, fingers, toes crossed so that you'll have a fine day to welcome your sweet bundle of fur into her new home.

>54 sibylline:: if I'm in a mood, blame it on Wallace!

I'm glad to see you're reading Infinite Jest. You echo my sentiments... I am finding that small doses at a time is about all I can handle. I'm still less than 100 pages into it.

Yes Donna, I have begun, I think I'm around p. 50, so I'm not even all that far behind you. It is going to take awhile, but so far I am engaged.

It's been so long since we had a puppy -- Evan came to us a little over four months and more or less house and crate-trained -- the breeders hung on to him because they wanted to be sure they were keeping the right one (for showing....) we were ok with that because our dau. was five and was so enthusiastic about small animals that we were a little worried she'd be a bit too much for a younger one. All this to say, I'm actually a little bit nervous!

Fingers crossed for good weather on Saturday!

I like your comments on the procrastination essays. Only very recently I read about this phenomenon for the first time in the German press (we are always years behind), and finally I have a name for my problem. It has been getting worse over the last years - or maybe I should say I let it get worse -, but at least now I know I am not alone there and that something can be done.

Hi Lucy, just catching up but exciting news on getting your puppy, has a name been chosen yet?

No name until she is with us. We have some ideas but those are under wraps!

Back to add some comments about the third essay from the Thief of Time "Is Procrastination Weakness of Will." This delightfully readable essay is written within a context of other writing and research on where to 'fit' procrastination in a behavioural context. Stroud builds her argument against including procrastination as a failure or weakness of will carefully, making a distinction between (new word of the day - means lacking in command over oneself -) Akrasia and procrastination. Akrasia is a choice of x and y, you know x is 'better for you' but you do y anyway. Stroud makes the point that the concept of weakness of will and/or akrasia don't include the factor of time. Procrastination, however, in a complex way is very bound up with time. At its simplest, we are procrastinating when we have made a plan or have an intention to do something at a future time, but then we fail to act on it when the time comes. We have also formed this plan precisely to try to overcome our inertia or lack of desire to do whatever it is. And there are even more elusive forms of procrastinating: forming bad plans, being aware that you do desire to 'do' such and such a thing, but forming a plan so vague as to be more or less impossible to implement or pretending/playing at planning. She gives an example of a person who knows she 'should' apply for a grant. She gets all the materials and makes a new folder and labels it and then....... nothing more. At this point Stroud dips briefly into some muddy waters as she explains perhaps this person (named Amanda) is afraid, has fears of failure... and so on. This was the best essay yet, lively and interesting.

I want to add though that much of my procrastination is less a failure to act than 1) insufficient motivation and 2) fears, some very vague and some more specific. I have generally found when I can identify a way to motivate myself I can overcome procrastination easily -- effortlessly even. Of course, there are numerous things that I cannot find a motivation to do and that's a problem!
Another method is breaking tasks I really loathe down into tiny manageable pieces - so I don't have to do it for more than 15 minutes. It can take a very loooonnnnngggg time to get something done, but often, when I'm at a certain point, the whole thing gets a lot easier.

The fourth essay has a scary title: "Intransitive Preferences, Vagueness, and the Structure of Procrastination" Blam!

It was very warm today -- high forties - raining off and on. So weird!!!!

edited for an embarrassing number of typos and omissions....

De-lurking for a moment - I'm enjoying all the puppy anticipation.

And these essays from the procrastination book are fascinating. I think #3 was so delightful mainly relative to the prior two that were rather dreadful. Although that is a very interesting distinction between Akrasia and procrastination (I have to find a way to get that into conversation this week). I would be interested to see more examples and see that drawn out more. Thanks for sharing!

Hokay, deep breath, essay #4 "Intransitive Preferences, Vagueness and the Structure of Procrastination."

The time-honored occupation of academics is refuting each other's ideas, and so the bone that is being chewed up in this essay is another academic's proposition that 'agents (you and me) are sometimes induced to procrastinate by having intransitive preferences (intransitive meaning unchanging through time, constant) possibly in combination with vagueness in the circumstances of choice.' Our academic does not feel that this definition is sufficiently broad. And goes on to make his point very eloquently -

The main issues that seem at odds with the first prop. are the plethora of reasons for it :" fear, nervousness or loss of nerve, boredom, aversion to the means needed to attain the end, wishful or unclear thinking, culpable ignorance or failure of foresight, failure to trace the logical consequences of one's beliefs, distraction or forgetfulness, lack of gumption, exhaustion, laziness, depression, and accidie or loss of affect." YOWZA. The point being that it is an ever-shifting landscape, I guess....

But let's take something 'transitive' - the agent (moi) would always prefer being a Size 10. The #1 PROBLEM is that being a size 10 doesn't involve weighing an EXACT amount, there is a ten pound range (the lower half of which is arguably a lot more comfortable). The problem is that each choice to have a dessert or a danish just doesn't properly compute even when you know, basically, it isn't in your interest isn't critical so each choice is made singly, one at a time -- choices aren't even made transitively, they are made in a relative way that allows for a tremendous amount of wiggle room..... There is also the mental state of never being happy with where you are that can add another layer of futility and confusion when you are faced with a plate of truffles. In the back of your mind you think, if I can get down to the comfy side of be a size ten why not make the play for size 8? And yet this makes the effort of staying a ten less desirable somehow, even pointless, even a failed thing......and this leads you into a perilous state of mind where you might think, if I can't be an 8 why not be a 12 and have more fun eating and be more comfortable in my clothing?

The refutation consists of the fact that even with intransitive preferences, the choice 'moments' are relative and thus have a transitive aspect.... and are not so much 'vague' as impossible to seriously relate to the global preference in any consistent way.

What I am finding reassuring as well as fascinating in these pieces is that other people are literally racking their brains to try and understand this behaviour!

Next essay is called 'Bad Timing' and it's mercifully short. Also the end of Part One of Three. Part one is basic analysis of the problem. Part 2 connects procrastination with imprudence and vice... and 3 is about strategies.

What I am finding reassuring as well as fascinating in these pieces is that other people are literally racking their brains to try and understand this behaviour!

I've been trying to understand my own behaviour in this respect all my life and haven't yet got there - it is reassuring to hear that others are struggling!

Part 2 connects procrastination with imprudence and vice

Not sure I like the sound of that - though my non-procrastinating critical colleague probably thinks of me in those terms all the time...

Part 3 and strategies sounds as if it might be useful...

Not going to mention procrastination :) It's taken me a while to get around to posting on this thread but just want to say that I am loving the puppy photos ... so cute!

Hey, Sib, there's a book you will probably want to check into when you are no longer constrained by your "no new books" rule: Clover Adams: A Gilded and Heartbreaking Life by Natalie Dykstra (good Frisian name). Check out the review by jbd1 at the link. It looks like a winner!

I've been fascinated by your procrastination essays, being an inveterate procrastinator myself. But I'm glad it's you reading the book and not me--I get to enjoy reading your commentary!

Very deep Lucy on here this morning! I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure.

Puppy! Puppy! Puppy!
It's been a long time since we had one too, and I wish you patience and remind you that soon enough puppy will be a dog with the habits you taught her now. (Or in our case that DH taught.)
Procrastination and Akrasia - I am intimately familiar with both. I guess "sheer human cussedness" wouldn't have made the cut for your book.
I'm off to write a couple of sympathy notes that I've been putting off.

ETA: I got The Greater Journey for Christmas! I can't wait to hear what you think about it!!

Can't wait to see the pics of your puppy. Having just rescued a kitten, I'm appreciating such joy in having a baby animal around the place again. I hope yours gives you as much fun.

Singed the pages of The Pride of Chanur by C.J. Cherryh(sf) as I flew at warp speed through them..... I LOVED it! If you love sf what's not to love here -- Cherryh doesn't just dish out the story, you have to work a bit to figure out what the heck is going on. Lots of seriously different aliens lovingly imagined. ****1/2

Chanur would be a good name for a corgi.

Indeed it would! Unlikely that I'd get the votes, though.

Woo hoo, you blew through that one, didn't you? So glad you enjoyed the first of one of my favorite sf series.

*knocked over by the breeze of Lucy's page-flipping* I haven't done so well. Maybe I'd better get busy again!

Have to come back and read up on essay #4. Love your notes about this book as you read along. Thumbed your A.M. Homes review.

But most importantly:

PUPPY!!!!!!

That's a great picture. She obviously knows who her real parents are. And boy, just you ever be excited about her coming home with you. I'll be thinking about you on Saturday and also crossing fingers for driver-friendly weather.

Ditto what Ilana says about the all important imminent arrival of the puppy! She looks like such a sweetie. I hope they clear all the traffic on your route so you can get there and back in record time. Eagerly looking forward to more pictures and hearing what name you choose.

We won't get back until Sunday as it is a six hour drive each way..... today I am taking up rugs and doing some clean-up and tidying and preparing the downstairs.....

I am so far behind. I know you're off getting puppies. You know we are all practically holding our breath in anticipation of all the stories and all the pictures we're going to get...... Oh boy.

One Way of Love sounds very interesting. Great review, Lucy.

Puppies. Just waiting for puppies.....

Thanks for visiting my thread. Your puppy must be really smart to look right at the camera--that means lots of mischievousness. ;)

The new puppy photo is adorable.

I like the idea of listing new words at the top of the thread. Only trouble is, I normally never see the top of other people's threads except when they are new, unless they tell me something new is up there, since I go straight to the newest unread message. I'll have to remember to check back up there and see what is added.

I'm always adding and changing things to my first comment -- that's where all my active lists are! And now that I'm getting handy with the photo biz, I imagine I'll be fiddling with the top quite often!

I'm new to the group, and skim reading lots of threads to find "my people". You had me at PUPPY! :-)

I definitely feel 'had' by the puppy today -- I'm running around puppy-proofing, as in, pulling up rugs etc. Just figuring out the logistics. We'll get back from our picking up trip late Sunday afternoon, tired to be sure.

And welcome to the 75!

I might not manage a procrastination essay today (I hear all the howls of disappointment...) but I am reading a little of Mrs Ames. I am loving the shift -- of Mrs Ames becoming a suffragette -- and the book taking on quite a different feeling as if it is waking up along with Amy.

OMG... she is Key-Yoot! She grows more beauteous by the day! And it looks like she's ready to go home with you...
ooooo - they all look so dang cuddly :)
Drive safely and good luck!!!!

Well, I read the fifth essay with the appealing title of 'Bad Timing'. It appears to be a kind of summary of a number of types of behavior that lead to poor decision-making, moving too quickly or too slowly, and checking each one out for it's rational/irrational features. He makes the point that different circumstances can warrant different responses: you can't wait for more information when you skid on ice, you have to make the correct motion with the wheel (an action) but you might lose money if you don't spend some time figuring out which washing machine is the best for your needs and budget, (a task). Procrastination occurs when the information-gathering phase of a task becomes an end in itself e.g. irrational. And although there is no definite 'moment' when the delay shifts from rational to irrational, as mentioned in an earlier essay here, there definitely is a point where you can identify the problem as a problem..... he also mentions perfectionism, emotion, lack of emotion, loss aversion, wishful thinking and self-deception as factors leading to procrastination. Lack of emotion is an interesting one in that seems to be an issue mainly when brain-damage of some kind has occurred and the person can no longer distinguish, due to lack of affect, the difference between the 'urgency' of one decision, action, or best approach to a task than another. Such a person could talk for hours about the pros and cons of having an appointment on this day or that, without any notion of absurdity.

The 6th essay is called 'Prudence, Procrastination and Rationality'. I very doubt I'll read it until Monday due to the arrival of you-know-what and attendant distraction! I've read a third of the essays and am a third of the way through....

This made me think of the distinction between urgent and important that Covey first made me aware of. But as a master procrastinator, perhaps that is just the type of caveat that I thrive on! (So glad you didn't make me howl!)

Countdown to puppy time...

WE HAVE IGNITION!
Yay! Watching for updates...

Stayed up late last night finishing up the delightful and surprising Mrs. Ames by E.F. Benson. Written in the jovial tone somewhere between Wodehouse and Thirkell, the novel focusses mainly on two couples of the town gentry who become entangled over the course of a year. At first it seems the story will be all a comedy of manners although Benson paves the way for his heroine, for she is just that, Amy Ames to have an epiphany. She 'gets' the suffragette movement, not just the thrill and 'fun' of the demonstrations but the whole purpose of lifting women out of being onlookers into being participants in the greater world. Meanwhile her husband is getting himself into a dangerous muddle..... A delightful read very much of the early 19th century era and style, so not for everyone, but if you like this kind of thing, as I do, I expect you will enjoy it. There is a scene where Mrs. Ames, who is exactly my age, has gone to the beach to 'transform' herself, and she ends up buying a little spade to build things and runs in and out of the waves..... that image of this person unbuttoning and enjoying herself was priceless!
****

Lucy - absolutely adore EF Benson and have read just about everything he has written at one time or another. Of course most famous for Mapp and Lucia but very much of the early 19th century era and style is I think about a hundred years out! Typo of course.

We have light sleety snow here today, so I'm glad to hear that the weather is co-operating in your neck of the woods as you head off for puppy collection!

I've only read one E F Benson - Mapp and Lucia last October, which I loved, so I imagine I'll enjoy Mrs Ames also.

I'm another E. F. Benson fan and recently read and enjoyed Mrs Ames. The Mapp and Lucia novels remain my favourites but many others of his are worth reading. He was from an extraordinary family - if you read about them without knowing you would assume it was far-fetched fiction. The recent biography of his mother - As good as God, as Clever as the Devil is on my wishlist.

I did read a bit about him - got curious - I might have to wishlist that bio too CDV.

Let's have that snow stay on yr side of the pond!

Puppy fetching time yet??

That was a delightful review of Mrs. Ames, Lucy. I went to thumb it but didn't see it posted. All the other reviews seem to part of the Early Reviewers program. Was this an ER for you?

I've been reading your comments on the proscrastination essays and am starting to realize I'm not as eager as I used to be to try and change this aspect of myself. Since I don't work anymore it's not as big a problem and maybe I just don't care as much as I get older. Of course, I could just be in denial.

Anyway, I hope you have a wonderful trip picking up the puppy.

I have the Benson family bio in my sights too, but it's not easy to come by. And it's Puppy Day!!!! We are all eagerly awaiting a report, so I hope that you can get online at some point tonight or tomorrow, Lucy. Drive safely!!! Pet her up for me!

Another Bensonite here, Lucy. I actually went to the Benson Society meet-up in Rye a few years ago (Alexander McCall Smith was the keynote speaker), spending four lovely days wandering around "Tilling". Mrs. Ames is good fun. The Mapp & Lucia series is still my favourite but Secret Lives is fun as well. For those interested, Mary Benson's biography is very good (As Good as God, As Clever as the Devil).

I've not yet discovered E F Benson, but he does have many fans!

I'm really enjoying your commentary on the essays in Thief of Time.

Um, about the puppy.....

We are in New Jersey - guests of our puppy's breeders - got in latish last night, played w/pups, ate, talked business and signed contracts etc..... it's early now and our plan is to scoot out betw 9-10. I promise that the MINUTE we get home I will post photos and full report! Dau & I know what we want to name her but it isn't fully settled.

Two pups are gone already, so we aren't the first, for which I am glad.

Little reading yesterday although we are listening to Terry Pratchett's Nation on ♬ - perfect family car book. Got a start on the latest NYer....

Pat - I don't procrastinate much anymore (or I don't care about the smaller things that I put off) either, but I live with a teen and a spousal unit who do. I'm not reading it for self-improvement so much as curiousity about the behaviour.

I'm off to walk around a bit before sitting in the car all day!

Will visit all yr. threads as soon as I get home.

I thought my review too small to bother -- but I'll put it in. Not an ER book for me, but a gift by an ER reader!

Looking out for those photos and news on puppy's name... Safe journey!

Thanks for the update, Lucy. I'm eagerly awaiting more breaking news on the puppy front too.

Just dropping by to say that thinking of your meditation re. choosing joy over righteousness was very useful to me at work on Friday. Thank you! Though I did indulge in some very self-righteous ranting when I got home after work ;)

The puppies are adorable. I'm looking forward to some reading today, though not too much...we're having friends over for the Superbowl and the house looks something FEMA should be concerned about. Plus I need to cook.

I did finish a re-read of the The Pride of Chanur last night; not sure I'll review it since I've read it so many times before. I agree, however, that she tells a mean tale.

I need to stay with books that don't require concentration. That's a problem since I have an ER book that's a bit overdue that isn't of that ilk. However, I think I'll do a Lee Child or something since I can only read in fragments. Either that, or jump into a re-read of the next Chanur!

Puppy is on the way home, puppy is on the way home, puppy is on...

Puppy, puppy, puppy!

Posey!

We're home, safe and sound, getting adjusted. Quiet uneventful trip home. Posey is clearly an intelligent and thoughtful girl, carefully exploring her new environment.... she's never really been outside on real ground before and she LOVED the little coating of snow and was dashing around like a nut!

YAY! Welcome home Posey! Love the name.

Oh! She is soooo sweet and loving her Mama! Glad she is adjusting so well.
Hugs for Posey!

{{{{Posey}}}}

ADORABLE!

Oh my gosh! I have tears in my eyes looking at that photo of Posey and you. So sweet! You must be one happy mama. And Posey is one lucky little girl! I'm very happy for all of you Lucy.

What a little doll!

Cuuuuute!

Posey! lovely name, and what a lovely photo. I do hope she settles in with you quickly and has a good night tonight - I still remember the only time we brought home a puppy, how she kept us awake half the night with her pathetic cries: it must be a very lonely time when suddenly separated from brothers and sisters and mother who have been her whole life so far.

I saw the unread post count, and figured there must be a PUPPY! She looks like she belongs.

Very gorgeous photo, lifelong bonding underway!

I just left you a message over on your profile before coming here and realizing that you're home. Hooray for Posey!! She's a darling, and I hope with Genny that she's a quiet darling!

Precious Posey! It will be fun to watch her grow up. Hope se has a good first night in her new home.

Lucy that's a darling photograph. Looks like the beginning of a beautiful relationship. And I love the name. So glad you're home.

>125 qebo:: I saw the unread post count, and figured there must be a PUPPY!
That was exactly what I thought too and I made a beeline for this thread!

She's adorable, Lucy.

Oh my gosh how can you stand the cuteness Lucy? So sweet.

She's a cutey!

Love Posey! Yay!

Posey looks very cuddly and soft, I bet you could just sit and pat her for ages!

Thanks everyone! She is a darling, indeed -- and very good -- we're all going to bed, exhausted at 9. What we do is take turns being the one sleeping w/the pup -- setting up a camp mattress on the floor in some location easily secured -- in our old house the master bath was big enough, here, the 1st floor guest room - just for a few days until the pup makes the adjustment and routines get established then it's into the crate in our room at bedtime. Minimizes the squeaking and maximizes everyone's opportunity to sleep. My camera ran out of battery and my brain out of juice so I can't post more pix until tomorrow.....well..... maybe one more.... give me a minute I'll find one and be back.

Here we go, our dau holding her during the ride home:

oooooooo - 2 cuties!
Thanks for the pics...
Wishing peace for your house tonight ;-)

Ooooooh cutie pie Posey!! Adorable

PUPPPPPYYYYY!

(I figured that was the case when I saw the notice that said 74 new posts. Now 75...)

Cute name; cute, happy pup!

Posey is a perfect name. She is a perfect puppy. Thanks for posting pics and letting us know how things are unfolding. I can live vicariously. Sigh. :-)

Happy for you, Lucy.

What a sweet, sweet puppy. Love the name.

Puppyyyyyyyy!!!... can't resist the puppy pictures...!!! How sweet that you're sleeping next to her in shifts until she gets adjusted. That's a wonderful idea. She's going to be well loved, that's for certain. :)

It's closing in on 11:30 and I haven't even brushed my hair yet....... I did manage to make some coffee. She's sacked now, so I'm taking a breather.

I really want to get a pic of her outside, where we are spending lots of time, but I keep forgetting my camera..... later maybe. Now I'm going to READ a little! It's been two days w/hardly any print, tho' a bit of audio, or I'd be a wreck.....

I'm late for the party, but can I just say: Welcome PUPPY!!
Posey is a lovely name. Did you already tell her that she has fans all over the world?

Oh - and the joy of watching a puppy when she/he sees snow for the first time!

Congrats on the new puppy Lucy. She does look absolutely delightful, even if all I can think about is the acres of poop you must have to clear up. Your daughter seems especially brave, holding her for a 6 hour journey - weren't there any,er, accidents??

Puppy! She looks adorable :-)

We had a perfect record on the accident front until the morning! She seems to be acclimating and that's good! I'm just sitting here alternating playing, reading and taking her outside. The house is descending rapidly into chaos, but so be it. Meanwhile, I'm alternating reading, playing, and going outside. I did manage to bathe and get my hair brushed!

I'll grow into it!

And I read a chapter of God's Philosophers
And I finished a NYer
And I brushed my hair.

Sounds like a highly productive day, in terms of the important things in life. How darling!

Back to add -- I am going to silently pass over the 6th essay on "Prudence, Procrastination and Rationality" in The Thief of Time. It feels too much addressed to other colleagues about arcane points in their quibbles for me to care.

So on to #7 "Procrastination and Personal Identity" . The title draw me! I have hopes!

*heart melting*
She looks so little :)

Take heart - you know these days go all quickly. Enjoy!

Posey is doing really good from the sounds of things. She's lucky to have your family and her forever home :)

So cute. I hope she always gives you as much happiness and joy as she is at the moment.

Somehow I read Chapter 7 which was fascinating! I'll just quote from the conclusion: "The picture of procrastination I have sketched suggests that our relation to our future selves is not significantly different to our relationship with our fellow human beings. Given this, it is plausible to claim that what one has to do to cope with procrastination is the same as what one has to do to get rid of a lack of concern for one's fellow human beings." The author makes the point that if we learn we are to die in an hour we are VERY concerned, if we learn that someone else is, we are less so -- and that, on the whole, when we don't take care of what we need to we are we are, in a way, dissociated from our future self or selves..... it isn't real, the same way, the further someone is from your own self and inner circle, the less you are likely to care..... it's a very interesting way to look at the problem, very creative, I think. The author ends: "... an empathic engagement with others tends to come with an increased concern for others. This, the coping strategy I propose to the procrastinator consists in the imaginative identification with her own future."

The author also makes a curious and significant point that those who procrastinate immorally say, a deadbeat dad or someone who knows something about a crime, are OVERLY concerned with their future selves, certainly more concerned about their own future well being than with others.

Next up: "The Vice of Procrastination". Not tonight though!

That's a great resumé about your latest chapter Lucy. Very interesting stuff indeed, and I can see exactly what he means. I'm just trying to work out how it is that I can use this information to stop procrastinating so much. Does spending time on LT count as procrastinating???

Sounds like you are in puppy heaven. Kind of like bringing a newborn home I imagine.

Chapter 7 sounds the best so far!
You sure land some fascinating books...

154: Does spending time on LT count as procrastinating???
I don't think anyone but you can answer that question.

153: those who procrastinate immorally say
There's moral procrastination? I see procrastination as distinct from not acting. Or maybe there's overlap, but not the same thing.

Hmm, the idea of moral procrastination is intriguing. Or am I trying to rationalize??

So glad you got your hair brushed! Is a puppy more demanding than an infant??

God's Philosophers finally arrived yesterday, though it will probably be a week or so before I can start reading it.

Ooooooohhhh, PUPPY! What a sweetheart! and great name!

If I had that adorable puppy at home, I don't know that I would be able to read a single chapter. Except I guess she has to take naps, eh?

What these folks mean is any procrastinating that you do that actually harms others than yourself has a 'moral' aspect...... it's one of the terms they all agree upon, as I understand it. It's interesting in a way although maybe I'm going too far, to connect it with 'altruism' -- one could learn to be 'altruistic' toward one's future self -- give up/and or take care of something now, for that future self. I don't really think it is a solution exactly, more as a challenge to stir things up. I can't believe that I didn't also say that the author uses the novel Oblomov to ease in and out of the essay -- how O's lack of any vision of a future self might have been part of what made him so unable to do even the smallest things to help himself. Oblomov is in my top ten by men!!!

Lucy, very interesting considerations of the moral aspects of procrastination. I think I'm going to have to read these essays. I work with people around procrastination, and focus on the avoidance aspects of it --- how it's tied into anxiety and/or anger & control -- but I admit that I have not thought about whether the act of procrastinating had moral implications. I like it.

Well Suz - I guess it depends on one's approach, mine is, especially the first week during acclimation to keep the puppy with me or another human nearly all the time, no popping annoying pup in a crate and leaving it crying somewhere. We don't do that with babies so I can't imagine why anyone would think it a good idea for an animal as socialized as a dog. There is also the fact you don't put a diaper on a puppy, so during the first two or so weeks you literally need to take the dog out constantly. Esp. in the hour or two after a meal or any significant water drinking (I do manage that by offering water mainly at mealtime.... and once at mid-day and a little an hour or so before bedtime.....) the going out bit is quite time-consuming. Not being leash-trained, not really knowing her name quite or much of anything (like where the door is.....) it's all one step at a time. I've enlarged her play area today to include the side door to where she is to go.... so she can run to that door because I think she knows where it is and has a little more running around space..... we've had only one 'didn't quite make it out' since yesterday - and we were all on our way -- so that's something!

Way too long an answer! I'm going to try a little bit of work (harp article for a harp journal!) today in between going in and out. I'm keeping my boots on at this point!

A boatload of Chanur books arrived this morning from PBS so I am extremely happy!

Just want to join in the fun....PUPPY!

Your daughter looks very sweet too Lucy in the photo taking your puppy home. I guess she is still just about a pocketful so the name is eminently apt.

Late, I know. But what a beautiful pup you've got there :)

And I love the name!

What a cute puppy! And such a pretty name. Good choice. Were there any other ones under consideration?

That is one cute puppy - love the name and thanks for the pictures.

Oh a few others, Nia (Welsh - beauty) and I can't think now, Gemma was one, I think -- our daughter had the final say, and we are all very contented.

I think I read someplace (long time ago) that animals respond better to names that end in an ee sound. 'Course that could have been unsubstantiated. Does Posey react to her name yet?

She's beginning to already, I think. She responds to my spousal unit's whistle by racing toward him every time!

Oh, I missed the arrival of the puppy! She looks ADORABLE!

Sandy K

So, I don't quite know how, but I did stagger through Ch 8 'The Vice of Procrastination - I started out thinking uh oh, then I really liked it during the development part, then at the end more uh oh. The author is, like the rest of the contributors to this book, involved in a longstanding academic discussion of procrastination as a 'failed' or collapsed or otherwise non-functioning part of the decision-making process..... so they have a lingo, basically. Vice (and virtue) in this context just don't pack the punch they do in RL. What this guy does that is interesting, much as the previous writer does, is break down and re-imagine the way we confront a long-term goal. His basic point is that everything we do is made up of discrete actions - say, when you are baking a cake you go through various stages, forming the intention, reading the recipe, getting the ingredients, breaking eggs, stirring...... during almost every one of these steps you can go and do something else. During a much much longer term project, however, essentially the same thing holds true. There are always choices to make. You can neither be inflexible or too flexible in yr. planning as to how to reach yr. goal -- and he calls this practical judgement (a virtue) -- in other words - the ability to make a plan with the right balance. So procrastination is the vice, basically a deficiency of practical judgement. There's nothing earth-shaking in it, except I did like the way he broke down the long-term goal. The uh-oh was a whole dive into 'instrumental rationality' -- I could tell w/some effort I could follow, but I'm not a student of this field, just an interested bystander.

Next up, Ch 9 "Virtue for Procrastinators"

171: Okay, now I know I need to read these essays. Really fascinating stuff.

How's the puppy?

Puppy is sacked for the night, and I am hoping to read a little. The goal at the moment is getting the point across about where to do business. If one focusses on this with utter dedication for a week or so it can really pay off. So that is my entire life at the moment, with tiny interludes where I can relax my vigilance.

Needless to say I am not writing a novel for the time being (Did I say that virtually all of these procrastination essays use the goal of writing a novel as an example? - it makes you wonder!)

I misunderstood 'Puppy is sacked' at first. I presume you meant 'out for the count' rather than 'given the boot'! Anyway, good luck with the goal for the week, I hope she's a quick learner.

Love the picture of her peeping out of her basket, at the top of the thread.

I don't know if I'd like to read your book of essays on procrastination. The 'vice' is so entrenched in my life, I would find it personally very challenging to expose my failings to such detailed analysis and scrutiny.

Yes, sacked as in seriously asleep, 'out cold'. - Don't want to scare anyone!

We had a good night! Routines seem to be beginning to settle in.... she squeaked to go out and I made it despite the fact that it was about 5 degrees F out (that is -15 C). I had to get on my coat while holding her basically..... I hate taking a tiny pup out in cold like that but she is indeed a real dog, and doesn't seem fazed in the least -- in fact there is a feature we are calling her 'mountain range' of compacted snow/ice from the roof (don't worry roof is clear for now) that she likes to run along, sit on, slide on..... I'm hoping she might have the tiniest glimmering of why we keep going out - maybe not all 'play'?

Genny -- I've struggled a great deal w/ procrastination and no one has yet discussed one of my problems which is putting off the things I love doing the most -- a good deal of my procrastinating happens around things that take a certain kind of mental energy and focus - things that require me to make a transition (I'm bad at those) from one part of the brain to another. And yet, once I sit down to practice or to write, I'm very rarely disappointed in the experience so it is sheer perversity -- that's why I wonder if there isn't some factor of 'conservation of energy' at work - none of these writers have discussed this really, or if they did it was cloaked in academeeze. But I have really like the idea of not empathizing with your future selves -- that feels like something I can work with. "Practical judgement" seems like something worth exploring also.

Of course, my other procrastinating happens around things which require focus and which I find deadly boring - like filing papers, filling out forms, reading important documents. Before we left Philadelphia, for about a year, we had help from a financial secretary - she mainly was working on settling details of my mil's estate but then she stayed on another few months to help us get our stuff in order before the move. It was HEAVENLY. I'm still 'following orders' the way she re-organized things!

Of course, a puppy is the ultimate distraction from just about everything! With great benefits, though, to my future selves!

175: a good deal of my procrastinating happens things that take a certain kind of mental energy and focus - things that require me to make a transition (I'm bad at those) from one part of the brain to another.

Yes, this exactly. Things that matter, that require sustained focus, that can't be done in scattered odds and ends of time.

Oh, she IS a Posey! How delightful! She is also a smiler--don't you just love smiler dogs? I am in complete agreement with you about not crating puppies but socialising them early on, with lots of hugs and contact.

I feel that this thread is brought to you by the letter P: Posey, puppy, piddles and procrastination.

#175, 175 - Yes, I can recognise that too. Some at least of my procrastination is putting off things which, once I get started, I really love doing and can't understand why I delayed so long. The transition thing is important. In general I am slow to start something, and then slow to stop once I've started, getting absorbed into the current activity or task to the detriment of the next one in line. I do like the 'future selves' idea...

Posey, puppy, piddles and procrastination. :)

Also snickering at the alliteration here!

I think setting small but realistic achievable goals rather than arbitrary ones helps. I generally think of all the paperwork or gardening in such an overwhelming way that I put them in the 'too hard', not enough time this day, week, month, year....so lately my strategy has been to allocate myself small tasks that chip away at the things I've been procrastinating about. My garden is finally starting to look lovely again and I've really enjoyed working there, just had to make a point of getting the right tools for the jobs that needed doing......and the paperwork well....getting there.

Kerry, that's exactly the thing with weeding. If you think 'whole garden', you run screaming off the cliff. But if you do a bit of a border then have a cup of tea, in a couple of weeks you actually get something done!

>181 tiffin:. But what if you like to weed? OK, so I'm just being a contrarian. But seriously, if I had to do a job like weeding a large garden a tiny bit at a time each day, then that would make me much unhappier than just ripping out weeds all day on Tuesday. So while I'm waiting for Tuesday to roll around (it's Wednesday), am I procrastinating?

Now I'm the resident expert, I guess, or getting there. No B you are not! Or rather, you are only procrastinating when you have set a task, you don't do it, and you perceive yourself as 'worse off'. There's a very subjective element to it, iow. And - this illustrates exactly one of the complexities in the essay I'm reading now - one person's 'virtue' or practical reasoning/judgement is another person's disaster. So long as you plunge in every Tuesday and you get done what you planned, (more or less) you are doing o.k. Likewise, for those of us who are less robust, the 15-20 minute plan works better. My spousal unit is more like you, B, all or nothing. He has a horrible time with paperwork which does seem to respond better to daily petting. Meanwhile I haven't quite finished the next essay which is another very good one, I'm happy to say. I'd better get cracking because my brain turns off when the sun slips behind the mountains.....

What if I put off the weeding until Wednesday? I'm not worse off, at least I don't feel like it, because on Tuesday when I said I was going to do the weeds, I found myself working on a genealogy project instead--finding my ggrandfather's village of origin in Prussia--or was that Germany?--or Poland? I had no reason to expect that day that I would find his village on Tuesday when I was puttering around when I SHOULD HAVE BEEN outside weeding, but wham! bam! All of a sudden all the pieces clicked into place, and I found him in Ohra, West Prussia, which it turns out is Orunia, Poland, just 3 km south of Gdansk. My garden is worse off because the weeds didn't get weeded, but I've found a piece of information that has escaped me for 20 years. And yet I could have just as easily come up with nothing. So, resident expert, I'll leave you to sort it out.

I'll leave that one for the resident expert too although as an expert procrastinator, I don't think it sounds like what I do. I sit and play Spider Solitaire or something rather than clean out my closet/bake bread/practice piano/type thank-yous for the Humane Society - whatever it is that I'm supposed to be doing.
I sort of get the looking at the future self, but in my weird way, procrastination is a way of holding onto the present - a denial that there's going to be a future self who would be glad to see present self off square one. Does that make sense? (I think it's called "immaturity.")

I don't think it is immaturity at all, Peggy -- I think these thinkers/researchers have a long way to go probing this mystery. And no, Becky, you still aren't procrastinating so long as you are happy with the outcome -- 'practical judgement' covers a lot of ground -- including flexible planning etc etc.

In any case, I have to go cook as the spousal unit has a meeting at 7.

I came back to add that that must have been very exciting Becky - to find your elusive rellie! And as genealogy is one of your constants, you were, in fact, fully engaged in one of your ongoing projects.

>182 labwriter:: It's all relative, as Lucy says in 183 (oh wise resident expert). Weeding is far less philosophical for me: I'm of middling years, with all the attendant aches and groans, have a very large perennial garden and live in the country surrounded by a plethora of weeds which blow in on the wind. Ergo, a one day attack is impossible and impractical but the 2 hour plan works beautifully.

Peggy, I'm no expert but it sounds like living in the moment like all those zen guys want us to do.

Lucy, this has been a lot of fun. So glad you're reading that book AND giving us instalments in chapters.

Another fine essay today -- and only six more to go - although I am a bit daunted at the thought - maybe I can get through more than one a day over the weekend. Entitled 'Virtue for Procrastinators' the author is taking to task the idea that there is some 'perfect' role model for people to emulate and that to define practical reasoning rigidly is counterproductive to getting difficult long-term tasks done effectively. The author points out the further wrinkle that the action by action quotidien experience of many very much sought-after long-term 'good' projects (raising children, writing a decent novel) are not always much fun - your kid is sick barfing uncontrollably, lies to you about homework, your printer breaks down, you have writer's block....). He reminds us of the Duchess in Alice telling her that she will be paid 'Jam yesterday and jam tomorrow, but never any jam today." The point being that this very factor can make it hard to stay centered on the task at hand. So you may just stay at work late and let your spouse (if you have one) deal with the lying, or the barfing.... you may decide that today really is the day you are going to clean out the mud room, rather than face your novel..... The author then offers hope in the form of 'dummy goals' - citing how, when we go for a hike we usually have an objective like some interesting rock formation or a good view. But he points out that this goal isn't the point of the hike, the point of the hike is to be out on a mountain, in nature, exercising, and so on. But something about the way we are structured makes the interim or dummy goal helpful. So this is yet another breakdown, another avenue of approach toward the slippery problem of maintaining motivation - way to encourage the 'agent' to keep pursuing the larger goal by allowing him or herself the rewards of reaching smaller ones along the way. His point then is that accepting one's frailty and using strategies that may seem a bit silly to someone else, to achieve your goals is a virtue.

I'm actually getting a lot out of this read, and it is a huge help to me to know that many of you are enjoying my summaries - it's a perfect example of what this author is writing about, every day I look forward to finishing a chapter so I can write about it here, where I may actually get to understand it in a new way, and it helps knowing I have an appreciative audience. This is yet another reason LT is so GREAT! And why our lists, goals, stars, reviews are mostly time well spent.

Next time my dau. complains about the pointlessness of high school and education I will probably say, "Jam yesterday and jam tomorrow, but never any jam today."

Hi sibyx, (may I call you Lucy?)

I just had to drop by and read your thread and say thanks again for joining Infinite Jesters and starting your thread there that's resurrecting some interest in the group. I've starred this thread too.

I read your piece on A.M. Homes wayyyyyy up above (man you guys move fast here in the 75!) with great interest, as she's also one of my favorite writers. You're probably already aware of her infamous (and yet hysterical) short story, "A Real Doll" from The Safety of Objects: Stories. Just thought I'd mention it, since you're on a very cool David Foster Wallace run, as he included "A Real Doll" -- a story as you may already know about a teenage boy who falls in love with his kid sister's Barbie doll and has a (how can I tastefully put it?) um, romantic "relationship" with it -- in his creative writing class syllabi when he taught at the Claremont Colleges. "A Real Doll" was required reading for DFW. I've not yet gotten to Homes' memoir, The Mistress's Daughter, but hope to one of these days.

I'm another happily following your chapter summaries with great interest, being very good at procrastination myself. But Lucy, are you not aware that there is a requirement to produce one new puppy picture daily? We are waiting quite impatiently!

I can fix that!


Lucy or Sib al work! Do you have something shorter I can use??? I'm a chronic initial user, EF? I'm so pleased you are visiting.

I haven't read "A Real Doll" -- you aren't the first to mention it recently -- I must find it.

Lovely puppy at play!

>191 sibylline:: Oh now that is just dear! I am smitten.

Lucy, I am in love with Posey! Happiness IS a warm puppy. Thank you for including us in the joy of puppyhood.

Thanks, Roni, for nudging out another puppy picture :)

Lucy, you have a winner - Posey is so very sweet. I can't stand all this cuteness! She looks playful and inquisitive. She's gonna be smart like her Mommy...

Oh! A puppy! Congratulations! And what an adorable girl! Posey is a great name.

More pics, please.

Stay THERE, leaf! Don't you dare move!!

I'm skipping all the posts on procrastination. Sorry, it's simply too painful...

I would have skipped all the posts about procrastination, but by the time I got round to doing it, I realised it was too late and I'd read them all without meaning to. ; )

Suz - I don't blame you at all -- but I think you might actually LOVE this book! The goal of it is to 'illuminate' what it is, using a number of disciplines psychological and philosophical. I'm feeling quite comforted and energized by what I am learning.

I am so wowed by yesterday's read I had to spend more time with it. The title is unpromising, "Procrastination as Vice" but what the author is up to is narrowing the definition of vice and virtue to terms which are used for lack for better ones - outcomes that a person would define as undesirable or desirable minus any moral judgments (e.g. procrastination is not a sin, or even a 'failing' for that matter.... it just... is.) She is very firm that procrastination is a complex behavior that appears to be a fundamental one, and that can only be understood by way of a forgiving, multidisciplinary, and quite creative approach. An example of the lucidity of the writing: "Although the proper relationship between psychological research and philosophical analysis is a vexed one, and, to my mind, we easily get the priority wrong, in the case of procrastination, it seems to me that the psychologists ought to set the agenda for philosophers to follow." Patterns that define procrastination are: Busyness and rushing about, a product orientation (uh, pages read, papers published etc.) discernible anxiety, unrealistic beliefs stated spontaneously about how high priority work will get done, hostile attitudes towards orderliness and timeliness, and suboptimal outcomes.
She outlines five features of procrastination psychologists have identified: poor productivity and associated anxiety, lack of direct control over the behaviour, false beliefs, false beliefs also accompanied by anger, and that there are different reasons. The types seem to fall into three categories: choosing the 'fun' thing, perfectionism leading to discouragement, and indecisiveness about the best way to proceed (or keeping options open). She offers up the different wisdom of Ben Franklin, Ayn Rand, Aristotle, the Epicureans and Stoics, all in a lucid and engaging way - Franklin's idea, that one should never be 'idle', Rand that one should be ruthless in achieving 'success' (fame and fortune), Aristotle's being more subtle and leaning toward process as the focal point. Epicureans would have you examine your goals and redefine them as needed, and Stoics might advise you to ask whether your goals are right for you, period. One comfort is simply that the Greeks were struggling with procrastination too. The author is adamantly opposed to attaching efficiency or worldly achievement and procrastination together - it has a far deeper significance or purpose even as a .... guide? indicator? warning? of how things are going in your life. She points out that many bad people are extremely 'successful' by those kinds of standards.....

On to Part 3 and "Overcoming Procrastination through Planning" Uh oh!

Overcoming Procrastination through Planning is highly overrated. I might have to think about that a bit more. Tomorrow, maybe. :)

De-lurking again to say that I am enjoying your procrastination reading and might even have to get the book.

I am definitely procrastinating right now.

I would say procrastination is my main life mode. But I have to also say there are times procrastination has really paid off for me--problems that went away or solved themselves because I delayed action.

I suppose part of it is really having an accurate understanding of what is important in your life.

While I do NOT want to read these essays myself, I am finding your discussion and analysis of them fascinating. (And usually I am not one for abridged versions!) I think your daughter had an excellent point about sometimes using procrastination as a defense mechanism. Sometimes we are not ready to face the task that we are procrastinating about and putting it on the back burner allows us time to mentally and emotionally prepare for the task at hand. That being said, I tend to procrastinate both things that I love doing and things that I dread.

I've often done procrastination THROUGH planning, myself. It's much more fun to make lists of things to do with priorities than to actually do them.

Lots of humor and wisdom being expressed here - lovin' it!
Everyone has different perspectives and I see my self in all of them. How can that be?
Now that I am retired, I procrastinate because... I can. Also I must think I have all the time in the world and there is no urgency to get things done. Someday, no doubt, I will see things differently.

I'm finding these essays on procrastination as summed up by you very interesting too Lucy. I'm not sure I'd want to read the originals either, but the discussions on the topic right here on your thread are well worth the time it took me to catch up with you.

I think both examples of things you've said you procrastinate with; things that require a great deal of mental energy and things you find deadly boring, are probably the typical things that most of us tend to procrastinate about. Sometimes—and I'm sure this isn't all that unusual either—I'll tend to procrastinate doing the one thing instead of the other. What I mean by that is that oftentimes, when I want to be doing something creative (scary! because the inner critic is waiting for the first opportunity to lash out), I tend to all of the sudden really REALLY want to do something boring and repetitive or mind-numbing, and then when I need to, say, fill out application forms, all of the sudden I feel an urge to do something creative.

It has often occurred to me that I might find a way to use this tendency in a productive way and sort of 'trick' myself into doing one or the other thing (i.e. creative/dull) by scheduling an 'opposite' activity which will make me feel like I'm procrastinating, but actually be highly desirable, but then I just know I'd find a way out by doing a third truly useless thing, just to prove a point, rebel without a cause that I am: that I won't be forced into doing anything, even (especially?) by my own higher self and risk actually feeling like I've accomplished something. My whole self-image as a slacker would take too much of a beating!

Oh and love love LOVE that latest photo of Posey. What a doll! I just love it when they up what we call the "Downward Dog" posture. They look so good at it, don't they?

I, too, am enjoying your Procrastination read. Am a terrible Procrastinator, myself and whenever I finally get off the dime and just DO it, I hate myself for having taken so long to get it done. Doing whatever it is just feels so awesomely good, I can't figure out why I farted around so long. And then I promise myself I will do better. To date - not much luck there.

Show of hands: Is there anyone out there who would say they do not procrastinate?

Isn't procrastination often just a normal response to coping with anxiety? And if it gets really debilitating, I wonder if it isn't often a sign of depression. Just askin'.

#207 I'll be curious to see who raises their hand!

And if it gets really debilitating, I wonder if it isn't often a sign of depression. Just asking'.

I'd say most definitely.

Absolutely, I procrastinate. And I agree with you absolutely on both scores, Becky. It's been when I've been anxious, worried or depressed that I procrastinate about major things (vs just doing the dishes).

Lucy very interesting discussion on the nature and consequences of procrastination (I'm told procreation is generally more my topic). I was enthused to make a contribution to the said discussion but then procrastinated and it almost passed me by!

I don't want to be too serious, but yes, I think depression and procrastination are intertwined - there is an anger component to both as well - they can create quite a feedback loop too, I expect. I would assume too that the depression component would underlie and be a factor or even a 'symptom'.

Ilana - I actually have a category of work that I call 'sneak writing' - a piece I'm working on, on the side. I've noticed that literally the second I get invested in it then suddenly it gets harder to do, the minute I think, hey, this might actually turn out well, suddenly I want to go back to my main project..... but it works, so I do it. I always have more than one writing project going now. Much the same way I read really.

207: Yep, I think we all procrastinate. In different ways and for different reasons, and with different consequences.

Lucy, that puppy is so cute I'm still saying it should be illegal. She is ADORABLE.

Oh, and Did I say that virtually all of these procrastination essays use the goal of writing a novel as an example? - it makes you wonder! --- I think that's very interesting. I do wonder if there is something about writing that particularly catalyzes, or just resonates with procrastination. I remember working on my dissertation (or should I say I remember not working on my dissertation?). I'm not sure I would ever have completed it had it not been for the boss who said "um, that degree is a requirement for this job. If you don't have it by the end of the next academic year, I won't be able to renew your contract." Big surprise, I finished the evil D. Structure/deadline ---> externally imposed.
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Did I mention that Posey is kind of cute?

Procrastination is definitely linked with depression. I have depression, sometimes more severe than others, and I am a permanent procrastinator. It takes me much longer than other people I know to get around to doing simple planned tasks. Even if it something I WANT to do, although of course the things I dislike take even longer.

Its become such an intrinsic part of how I live my life now, I'm unsure how to challenge it. And of course, the depression doesn't help, because as soon as I think about doing something about the problem, the urge to retreat into myself and go back to bed/curl up and forget it all becomes almost overwhelming.

It's been so interesting, recognising that procrastination is a normal part of most peoples lives, and that mine is magnified because of the continuing depression, as opposed to being entirely a symptom of it.

Thanks for starting this discussion, it's been very useful.

And I hope that Posey is doing well :)

I think procrastination is linked to perfectionism in my case though I've never thought of myself as a perfectionist before. When I was a student, I was more comfortable writing essays at the last minute because then I had an excuse for a so-so grade! if I did start something earlier, I would keep changing and adding things until the last minute anyway. I think this is pretty common amongst students, judging by the number of last minute dissertations my bookbinder husband receives to bind, an hour before the university deadline! I do have a fear of finally presenting anything I have created to the world.

I am tempted by this book, Lucy but fear that I would keep thinking of the other things I should be doing whilst I was reading it.

#214

That's what I do as well. I didn't revise for a single exam so that I could have an excuse for myself when I didn't do well. Sadly I did okay, so now I continually think how well I COULD have done had I put any effort whatsoever in.

*sigh* c'est la vie!

Ellen, Jenny and Dee -- what delightful comments! Funny and touching and insightful - I have found LT wonderful, in fact, for just the thing you describe Ellen - at least, for getting book read. One reason I decided to write about this book this way as I read it was a) so I would read it b) so I would think about it harder which has also led to c) that many of you are getting something out of it too. I am sorry Jenny that you struggle with depression, it is a many-tentacled thing, so debilitating. I think I have the perfectionism bug too Dee (and Jenny) - and I think you both nailed it!

I suspect one reason long, complicated writing projects are so vulnerable to the big P is that they have that unmanageable hugeness like building a house. Winter is a good motivator for getting that job done! - keeping yr. job another, but if you've set yrself the task of 'writing a novel' - well, no deadline, no parameters, -- you have to set them all yourself, basically, and it's a very hard thing to do, even if you enjoy the writing part of it!



As a family we listened to Terry Pratchett's Nation on audio - apparently not considered one of his best, but we enjoyed it thoroughly, liked the reader, who apparently ONLY reads Pratchett!
In an alternate uni all the royals die in a terrible flu epidemic so that the 158th to the throne, a Governor way out in our Pacific, their....(I forget the alternate name) is King and must be Found. Meanwhile his 13 yr old daughter is on a ship heading home from visiting her father and a Great Wave washes her ship onto an island. Everyone there has died too except one young man named Mau who was coming home in his canoe from his initiation to manhood test. The story unfolds of their own friendship, of the gradual rebuilding of a community as people drift in, damaged and broken, to the island which is known as 'the Nation'. There are bad guys, there is a treasure, and all sorts of other shenanigans, lots of fun. If you like Pratchett, you'll like it fine. I suspect though, that for me, the audiobook is the way to go. I love the reader! ***1/2

>211 sibylline:. I would assume too that the depression component would underlie and be a factor or even a 'symptom'.

I guess what I'm saying is that procrastination is often a symptom of depression, not the other way around.

But I think more often than paralyzing procrastination, you find people exhibiting a more garden-variety level of procrastination associated as a coping mechanism for anxiety, and sometimes our coping mechanisms work well for us, and sometimes they get out of hand--or don't work very well at all.

#214, Soupdragon mentioned that procrastination manifests itself as perfectionism, but what about about another style of procrastinating, the crisis addict? You put things off until you have yourself a good old-fashioned heart-stopping crisis. DH & I have a joke whenever one of us (usually him, but I do it too) is doing this: "What, your life isn't exciting enough?" You live on the edge, addicted to the adrenaline rush of the IMPOSSIBLE deadline, to pulling it off, being the hero, living on Jolt and M&M's. This is where DH lived for about 20 years when he was a young programmer. He always worked best under a deadline, and Soupdragon, it wasn't because he was trying to cover up for a so-so outcome; instead, it had a lot more to do with his creative style and also, probably, a feeling of boredom if he had too much time to work on any one project. But this style, rather than being a problem for him, instead worked well for him.

OK, so you've got me going on this procrastination thing.

Is it possible some people label themselves incorrectly as procrastinators? Maybe instead of procrastination, in some cases the issue is more that a person doesn't know/hasn't been taught how to break down a long project into small pieces. Or they don’t have much experience with finishing long projects. You hear it all the time—“I’m about 90% finished with my article (or software project or whatever).” It takes experience to learn that the last 10% of the project almost always takes a disproportionate amount of time—even up to 50%. So they’re stunned and confused about why they can’t get the darned thing finished, and they fall back on what they think is the problem, procrastination, when the issue is really one of learning organization and discipline.

Added. And of course, it isn't someone's fault if they haven't been taught this sort of skill. I can't tell you how many of my college freshmen students somehow made it through high school without ever writing an essay. Seriously? Yes. So for them, an 4-5 page essay was a long, complicated writing project, and much of my time was spent teaching them how to break that down into manageable steps.

Wonderful contributions Becky -- I like the 'crisis addict' one especially -- no one has addressed that precisely either, but I would say that this is a style of working not a 'problem' -- provided you meet yr. deadlines in a way you feel good about, it doesn't qualify.

Yes, the insight about that last 10% is so important, so hard to learn -- and I think it is mainly what graduate writing projects are meant to teach. Of course, it should be taught sooner, and I think lots of teachers try, but there is so much resistance as you well know.

I am now in the 3rd section of the book which offers some approaches to dealing with procrastination and I can't tell you how exciting the first essay was to read (with the breathtakingly straightforward title "Overcoming Procrastination Through Planning' ) I am almost afraid to summarize it because I might leave out something important, not do it justice.

At its simplest, the author proposes that there are two main components to successfully approaching a task, large or small. It doesn't matter what the cause of the procrastination is, this approach has a startling success rate:

ONE is goal intention. The strength of your goal intention really matters. If it is weak, the whole affair is in jeopardy. Therefore sitting down and thinking hard about benefits and consequences, perhaps listing them, matters. Being clear with yourself about why you want or have to do such and such makes a difference. BTW the most inhibiting factor of all is socially-directed perfectionism, (as opposed to self-directed) e.g. people who are taking their cues, setting their goals from social norms, parental expectations, etc. This has to be recognized and dealt with or the problems will persist.

TWO - forming implementation intentions. Not as easy as it sounds. You don't say: I will exercise every day. That won't work. Instead you form your intention in an "if..then" format. You also add to that a WHEN, WHERE and HOW.

Let's say your goal is to exercise a certain amount every day.

"If the weather and my physical state are fair to excellent then I will exercise every morning after breakfast by taking a 1-2 mile walk around my neighborhood."

You can add, say, "If the weather or my physical state is too poor and I cannot take a walk, then I will do ( isometric exercises, tai ch'i sitting in a chair or whatever) instead for at least twenty minutes during the time I would have been walking." It's important to be flexible too -- to have a "If this plan isn't working then I will re-examine it and change what needs changing."

Of course this is simplified -- but I am very intrigued and energized by it. Of course the temptation is to run out and apply it to everything I'm dissatisfied with, but I am going to think about it and only apply it to one thing for now, probably my music practicing which has somehow fallen off the rails almost completely.

What I have left out are the details.....The author delineates the types of things that cause both lack of goal strength and the types of causes of procrastination and then shows the results of various studies using the 'if.. then" formula on these different problems -- Only in one or two area the 'if..then" doesn't work as well, but it almost always makes some difference. Even people undergoing drug-withdrawal and considerable mental exhaustion and trouble are better able to say, show up on time for their appointments, when they use this format. It is very impressive.

I'm going to comment on the procrastication theme. Maybe tomorrow.

I'd roughly label behavior procrastination if there was a task that I regret not having done and that I objectively had time to do, or if I anticipate such a state for a current task. It's quite subjective. There are little procrastinations, e.g. cleaning the house or paying the bills, and big procrastinations, e.g. a career goal that requires a series of steps but the payoff is so far in the future that another day of delay seems trivial, until the day becomes weeks or months. In my case, depression and anxiety enter into the mix; either I can't dredge up motivation, or my stomach knots up so I avoid.

205: It has often occurred to me that I might find a way to use this tendency in a productive way and sort of 'trick' myself into doing one or the other thing (i.e. creative/dull) by scheduling an 'opposite' activity
Yes! This works, to an extent, for me. I make a list of the range, boring annoying things and daunting creative things, and pick one, so I have an excuse not to do the others just yet.

206: Doing whatever it is just feels so awesomely good, I can't figure out why I farted around so long.
I do this with home maintenance. Pass by the pile of stuff that needs to be organized, or the item that needs to be repaired, for months, and then suddenly one day I do it, and it takes half an hour.

212: Structure/deadline ---> externally imposed.
Yeah. I'm way better at getting things done when other people have expectations.

217: sometimes our coping mechanisms work well for us, and sometimes they get out of hand--or don't work very well at all.
Yes. It's not necessarily a bad thing to take a break, read a book or watch TV until anxiety subsides or enthusiasm strikes, but only if the dreaded task actually gets tackled afterward, rather than never.

He always worked best under a deadline, ... it had a lot more to do with his creative style and also, probably, a feeling of boredom if he had too much time to work on any one project. But this style, rather than being a problem for him, instead worked well for him.
Seems some people, your husband included, thrive on the chemistry of tight deadlines, and all sorts of creative ideas spew forth. I'm the opposite; I become paralyzed with anxiety. So instead, I deal with the basic structure immediately, e.g. draft the paper or diagram the project, and then it's in my mind so I can add details over time.

All of the procrastination comments are fascinating to me. Procrastination is a large part of my life too - I can get things neat (and that's pleasurable) and get things done that are essential for continuing to eat, dress, breathe, etc., or get things done that I'm told to do by my boss, or the tax man, or the law. It's committing to my own projects that is the hardest - they sit and stare at me saying 'Well? When?' forever. So I need to explore why my own goals are so much less important, or more frightening, or less worthwhile than goals set by others. As I'm thinking about retirement, this investigation itself is becoming more urgent, unless I want to wind down like an old clock.

So thanks for the summaries. I might have to get this book and read it myself.

My worst case of crisis procrastination was my last semester in graduate school. I was a short-timer and I knew it. I had a term paper due in my clinical counseling course, and I could NOT make myself settle down to it. I had a pretty good idea of what I wanted to say, but this was in the days when you typed these papers on typewriters. Suffice to say that I finally got started the night before, and pulled a rare all-nighter to end up with a 22 page term paper. Not surprisingly, the professor, although he loved my ideas, thought the paper kind of trailed off at the end...

Unfortunately, that's a pattern that continued into professional life, in that I rarely got started on a report until two nights before the meeting at which it was due, and occasionally was bit when a piece of information I needed was missing.

Lucy, I think a lot of people weren't sure what to do with Nation because it wasn't at all like Discworld. This was the first complete book to come out after Pratchett discovered he had early onset Alzheimer's (and threw himself into fund raising and information sharing about the disease) and I think that it incorporates very much his own awareness of his impending death (of mind, at least) and what he feels is important to share about the meaning of life, things he want to be sure he says as a writer. I find it a very rich if occasionally emotionally difficult book.

222: or get things done that I'm told to do by my boss, or the tax man, or the law. It's committing to my own projects that is the hardest - they sit and stare at me saying 'Well? When?' ... As I'm thinking about retirement, this investigation itself is becoming more urgent
At work, I'm highly organized, with task lists and priorities and chugging through deadly details, or persisting through the stress of deadlines and uncertainties; if I'm unable to decide which of several options to pursue, I'll pick one and do it. At home, not so much. In part, this is because I want home to be a respite. I'd suppose this is fairly common behavior. So maybe retirement offers an opportunity to replace work work with personal work, while retaining the down time.

I hope you're right.

On the subject of retiring, if I can get a toe-hold in enterprise data modeling, I might work forever. Just haven't been able to make the segue in my current environment, which is suffused with cost-cutting efforts and the short-term bottom line, even though the work is desperately needed. If I have to keep to the development/production support spot I'm in now, retirement will look good.

Roni -- that is truly fascinating information - and totally resonates with me, I think Nation has a core of seriousness - perhaps that what some readers found off-putting. Your remarks make it all the more poignant. I 'm glad this is where my Pratchett adventure is beginning!

One of the things I couldn't put in my summary that is part of practical goal-setting etc. is that, in fact, we get worn out from certain tasks and once a person is emotionally depleted that's that -- the energy expended on 'will-power' at that point will likely have other repercussions down the line. IOW energy is finite. It was very puzzling to me when I was looking after my mother that I could not write any more. I could, however, practice music, thank goodness, so I did, rather obsessively. I could read, but not as attentively as before or after. Reading this, is helping me understand that while on the surface I wasn't 'doing much' - being with my mom, talking to nurses, aides, doctors etc., doing things that needed to be done (shopping for things for her) PLUS looking after my daughter, made for an emotional depletion which I knew was happening but was, in fact, HUGE. Music turned out to be something very restorative, harp especially (duh, really, it's an extraordinary instrument). I was also very dilligent about exercising - I had a walk I ALWAYS took after leaving my mother (Yeah, she was in a dementia place) and that was incredibly helpful. I also had a brother who I would call and he would tell jokes and be wonderful -- he did the same with me when he went to see her... we called it 'debriefing'.... but in many ways my life became very simple. Now that I'm very engaged intellectually - with my own work and here - I am playing less music, finding exercise a little harder to do (TG for PUPPY, that problem is now solved!)..... It's very interesting to think about.

225: What is enterprise data modeling?

Fascinating discussion of procrastination - I suffer form the perfectionist type myself, as my sisters noted when they visited a few months ago.

Keep posting pictures, we want to see Posey too!

Oh gosh, so much interesting stuff being said here. I read up till #218 nodding my head vigorously, and already have a bunch of things to respond to, then started on Lucy's response, but just now realized that... I've been spending the last half hour AT LEAST here on LT procrastinating on vacuuming, something I loathe to do and which gets done very very rarely around here. But earlier today, one of my cats (Ezra) flopped down onto his back for me to stroke his tummy in the full sun (a rarity) and when he got back on his paws, I was shocked to see how dirty he'd gotten just laying there. Out of control.

So off to it I go, but I've marked as "read to here" and will be back later!

Enterprise Data Modeling - the effort to describe the business, and not just the project at hand, in terms of the data the business deals with. In big companies, silos of business tend to build their own pictures of the world, but ultimately these pictures need to be united in order to give the executive team the best view of the company as a whole. Of course, it's not an obvious revenue-enhancing activity, so it keeps getting pushed off until it becomes an emergency to paste the pictures together, at which point you find out how many definitions of customer, account, address, and other things you have, all of which contradict each other. Getting it right is like cleaning the Augean stables, but I find it fun.

One of my many quirks.

It sounds like conceptual tidying up? I love it! One thing I read somewhere is that in functional families everyone 'agrees' on the story, tells more or less the same stories about each other. In the dysfunctional family everyone has a different take on 'what happened' - obviously a company with too many different 'versions' of what it is about will end up being dysfunctional. Interesting indeed!

Most of my reading time today has been devoted to the second in the Chanur series of C.J. Cherryh (Chanur's Venture. Such fun! I'll probably finish it up tonight. Busy day with little time for reading tomorrow.

That's a very interesting way of putting it, especially since this often happens when a company grows by acquisition, and the 'families' are really just pasted together. Years later, the descendants are now on good terms, but the systems are not!

>225 ffortsa:-232: Judy, that's a nice short description of enterprise data modeling, I will have to file that one away for future use. I love it when I can describe a complex subject succinctly. And then there's Lucy, summing it up in terms of a "dysfunctional family," now that will also come in handy. One thing we IT types are often chastised for is not being able to communicate like normal human beings.

I feel like Judy and I work for the same company: business units pasted together over time, data sprawl, and a work environment "suffused with cost-cutting efforts and the short-term bottom line."

OK, I'll stop. There's still some weekend left to enjoy!

I'm reading C.J. Cherryh's Chanur series and I somehow mixed up two books and jumped to Book 4 but no harm done -- I'm dying to know what all went on in between! It would have been worse to skip only one book, but this one is considerably in the future when Pyanfar's young cousin Hilfy has her own ship (and her own baggage), the Legacy - and is out to make her fortune. It was wonderful -- especially the emerging portrait of the stsho .......

>233 lauralkeet: Explaining things to mere mortals has been my specialty over the years. Oh, the advantages of a degree in English among the technorati!

Actually, you jumped to book 5, Lucy, which is much better than book 4, because it takes place a number of years later and out of the main story arc of the first four books. Book 4 would have been REALLY confusing without book 3's info.

Aren't we behind on Posey pictures?

230: Of course, it's not an obvious revenue-enhancing activity,
Sigh. So much trouble in the world boils down to this.

Lurking my way through this delightful and interesting discussion. Nothing more to add. I keep thinking "yep" and "oh, good point" as I read various comments about Procrastination. Your approach to reading and journaling about this book has provided for some rich conversation!

Might we have another picture of Posey? Pretty please?

This is not a new picture (as in, it is all of maybe three days old?).


This is one intrepid girl btw - today it was around 0 F. and Miss Posey galloped happily around our twenty minute loop walk through the woods - we did both pick her up a couple of times, but she wiggled and wiggled that she wanted to get down. She also stopped dead and in a listening mode 'til we noticed a woodpecker flitting nearby and then tracked it from tree to tree. I was impressed!

I'm off to do my procrastination read -- only four more to go!

Great picture!

I'm definitely a crisis addict, which is one reason that I do relatively well as a freelance journalist. I need to have fixed deadlines looming in front of me to work toward. Otherwise, I dither and rationalize. For instance, i finished the interviews for a clutch of small profiles on Monday; I could have begun writing them up as I reported them in late January (but why??) or started as soon as I finished the reporting, or even yesterday. But with the drop-dead date being tomorrow, I waited until 3 p.m. today. Sigh.

On the other hand, I definitely think more clearly when (a) I give myself time to ponder things at length, in what is also procrastinating and then (b) I work straight through to meet a tight deadline. A lot of work is done in my head, kind of bubbling along in the background; I'm still thinking about stuff even when I'm not actively working on it. A recent magazine article that editors loved and made ZERO changes to (and this is an obsessive-compulsive editor...) was written the day it was due, in three hours, and I submitted the first draft. I can't believe I got away with it.

On the other hand, there are definitely things that I CAN'T put off because they become bigger and more intimidating. I know how to break tasks down, etc., I just don't want to do them, or don't want to start.

Suz, that's exactly how I write. Much walking around with the stuff burfolating away in the background then a sit down flat-out writing blitz. I never thought of it as procrastinating, just how I work.

ETA: love the Posey in the woods pic but I needed magnifiers to see it!

240> Thanks, Lucy. She is one adorable pup. And brave. And observant. ♥

I'm impressed, too, with Posey's "woodpecker-ing." Lucy, I'm loving the discussion on the procrastination essays you're reading. Was taken with the data modeling/dysfunctional families analogy. Good one!!

Thank you, Nancy! Of course, Tolstoy says it even better I just realized! And it makes one realize how deeply important our stories are, and having others respect and confirm our stories.

Suz, little doubt in my mind that you are a perfectionist - the deadlines may free you of that burden - lower the stakes to the 'best you can in the time you have' and that's do-able? If you are OK with that approach, then it's really not a problem. If you hate it or feel it is costing you in some way, then maybe it is. I used to envy those who could write papers, etc. at the last minute. Since I do worse under pressure I've really had to learn ways to work in small bites and steadily.

It is like entering a harbor with smooth water to be in the last part of The Thief of Time where the authors consider strategies. The second essay, by the book's editor Chrisoula Andreou considers the two primary strategies on offer and suggests a third option. The first strategy is the one I described above, implementation intentions, however, without (and I think this is crucial) the 'if...then' formula and the directive of building in flexibilty. The main problem with this strategy, in her view, is that a failure to follow your own intentions can lead to an even greater sense of failure. I do think the previous essay takes that aspect into account, but nevermind.
The second strategy is to have deadlines imposed from without - to do this can require that you hire someone to - say an exercise coach - or whatever and this can be impractical for many who can't afford it, and it also doesn't help one's sense of having control over one's own life. It's not a bad strategy in some circumstances, however, and it tends to work. The threat of losing one's job works pretty well as a motivator to finish things, and even 'losing face' by not doing what your coach and you decided on is a pretty good incentive for most people. The third option is using leverage to encourage yourself, she describes having decided that she would exercise five times a week for twenty minutes each and if she did not she would not have her weekly 'treat', dining out on Friday night. Her main reason for this approach is to avoid the problems that she sees in both the other strategies that failure can lead to even more bad feelings about one's abilities, however, if you look at it, it is really in the 'if ... then' structure - (If I don't exercise etc. then I will not get to go out for dinner Friday.)

Really it is this modified implementation intention strategy - one that incorporates a certain flexibility and a bit of 'distancing' from oneself, that gets the best results.

A side discussion in this piece was about the fact that few people procrastinate about everything and most people have areas where they flawlessly exhibit responsible on-time behavior - and that it is a meaningful assessment to make of oneself -- to recognize and laud those things and perhaps even use them when making strategies. That was the new tidbit in this piece.

Happy Valentines Day, Lucy!!

The strategies for dealing with procrastination are a lot like the strategies for dealing with children -your actions have consequences, therefore reward for achievement or punishment/ removal of privledeges or reward for failure. Except, I guess if you are making them up for yourself, you could cheat or rationalize your failure to achieve your objective. Which I probably would do!

All caught up again! Lots of food for though. A few people brought up the topic of depression and the resulting tendency to procrastinate, but I really struggle with trying to even find the will to care about getting things done, or the will to make goals. Depression really strips you of the ability to think about the future in a constructive way. I used to have so many goals I took for granted, but now none of it seems to really matter. In the abstract, there are many things I'd like to get done, but any effort at all seems like too much bother. I used to work under deadlines and thrive under pressure, but since my breakdown all that has become impossible. Even the idea of the possibility of a project looming in the near future is enough to paralyze me completely. Procrastination is like falling into a comfort zone. Nothing is getting done, true, but it also feels safe. There is comfort to be found in stasis. I just wonder if it's possible to start moving again after one has come to a full stop for a substantial amount of time.

But I guess that's another book and another conversation altogether...

I confess that I've skimmed through some of the posts here as I've been away for a few days but but wanted to add one word that I haven't seen mentioned so far and was a 'big' chunk of one of the papers I did for a BA in Education....motivation. Nothing much happens in the learning world if you have an unengaged learner, I think the same thing applies to a procrastinator. You have to want to do it now, so maybe you need to brainstorm some short term goals/rewards to get started.
I'll have to go back and read some of the longer posts with more concentration, love the update photo of Posie. One of our 'girl' kittens is actually a boy so now family wants a renaming of Morrigan and won't settle for Morrie. I'm procrastinating on the renaming as I think Morrigan is fairly gender neutral.

I completely agree about Morrigan being gender neutral Kerry.

Same here about Morrigan. It's a great name!

Both great points -- I agree too that where depression has become the overriding state there is little one can do about procrastination. Motivation is addressed a little here and there -- but there is an assumption made in this inquiry that motivation is a 'given'. In one of the essays I recently read there is time spent on firming up commitment to the goal -- which, to me, is another way of putting it. But there is indeed a difference between being eager to do something and having to overcome reluctance or even inertia about something you will never want to do but must do..... I'd like to read another essay today but it is a bit late..... my brain more or less shuts down around when the sun goes down.

Posey had a great day today -- figured out how to roll and spent the whole walk rolling.

I'm too tired tonight to start a new thread but I will tomorrow. I can't believe I'll have two in one month, but I realized it isn't about me, it's about Posey!

I can't believe I'll have two in one month, but I realized it isn't about me, it's about Posey!

I respectfully disagree with you there Lucy. You've had a pretty potent mix going between, yes, Posey news and not least of all that fascinating discussion on procrastination... good stuff!

Seems a lot of us are interested in procrastination.

chuckling about proposed reasons for need of new thread....
drumming fingers on desk awaiting said new thread :)

She's clearly procrastinating :)