Jules Verne and other authors with many different translations for a given title
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1Keeline
According to some sources, Jules Verne is one of the most translated authors. As I understand it, most European countries' translations are fairly faithful to the original French edition so reading it in one language is pretty much the same experience as reading it in another.
That's seldom the case for Victorian-era English translations. Quite often the official editions in the U.S. or U.K. are bad translations with major changes, errors, cuts, or even insertions when compared with the French originals. Identification and evaluation of these translations has been done by Arthur Evans.
Further, the publisher competition of the era was such that it is common to find multiple Victorian-era translations for any given text. Stories may have three or more translations of varying quality and completeness. A tale like Around the World in Eighty Days may have as many as a dozen early English-language translations. Quite often the translator is not identified and we can refer to it only by the first publisher that issued it.
Since 1965 there have been efforts to restore Verne stories in English by making new translations. There is some very good work done in the past decade or two in this area by key publishers and translators.
Several later tales by Verne were edited or extensively rewritten by his son Michel Verne. For many decades these were the canonical editions. However, in the past decade or two the original Jules Verne manuscripts have become available, causing pre-edited versions to be available. Of course, these are also being translated to English. These are almost certainly not the same text.
I recognize that with the data available in the combination interface, it would be very difficult for the average combiner to segregate these. It may not be possible/practical without that mythical "editions layer" that is occasionally discussed.
Just to show that this is not isolated to Verne, I have seen similar situations with Alexandre Dumas (with multiple English translations of texts and even modern authoritative texts), Swiss Family Robinson, and even the English-language Robinson Crusoe or Gulliver's Travels have issues with only part of the full story available in most editions today.
Is this resolvable under the current LT interface and data model or is it something which must be accepted as a necessary reality?
For my own part, I think I will identify the translators (when known), include information on the quality ratings of the translations, and tags for best or quality translation on the copies that merit it. This may come down to the ways that individuals customize their catalog to reflect the aspects important to each person.
James
That's seldom the case for Victorian-era English translations. Quite often the official editions in the U.S. or U.K. are bad translations with major changes, errors, cuts, or even insertions when compared with the French originals. Identification and evaluation of these translations has been done by Arthur Evans.
Further, the publisher competition of the era was such that it is common to find multiple Victorian-era translations for any given text. Stories may have three or more translations of varying quality and completeness. A tale like Around the World in Eighty Days may have as many as a dozen early English-language translations. Quite often the translator is not identified and we can refer to it only by the first publisher that issued it.
Since 1965 there have been efforts to restore Verne stories in English by making new translations. There is some very good work done in the past decade or two in this area by key publishers and translators.
Several later tales by Verne were edited or extensively rewritten by his son Michel Verne. For many decades these were the canonical editions. However, in the past decade or two the original Jules Verne manuscripts have become available, causing pre-edited versions to be available. Of course, these are also being translated to English. These are almost certainly not the same text.
I recognize that with the data available in the combination interface, it would be very difficult for the average combiner to segregate these. It may not be possible/practical without that mythical "editions layer" that is occasionally discussed.
Just to show that this is not isolated to Verne, I have seen similar situations with Alexandre Dumas (with multiple English translations of texts and even modern authoritative texts), Swiss Family Robinson, and even the English-language Robinson Crusoe or Gulliver's Travels have issues with only part of the full story available in most editions today.
Is this resolvable under the current LT interface and data model or is it something which must be accepted as a necessary reality?
For my own part, I think I will identify the translators (when known), include information on the quality ratings of the translations, and tags for best or quality translation on the copies that merit it. This may come down to the ways that individuals customize their catalog to reflect the aspects important to each person.
James
2Nicole_VanK
It might be partially resolvable - for newer editions with ISBN we might be able to figure out what's what. But as is we can never ever tell what's meant with every copy of no-ISBN "Around the World in Eighty Days" by Jules Verne (no further details) - to use your example. Several totally different editions may be in that "edition".
(Look in "editions: Second one from the top = 363 copies - no details; fifth one from the top = 261 copies - no details; only difference is that one spells out eighty and the other one say 80. How will you ever determine what's what? Frustrating? Sure.)
P.s.: Posthumously shoot the translators and publishers who created the mess in the first place ;-)
(Look in "editions: Second one from the top = 363 copies - no details; fifth one from the top = 261 copies - no details; only difference is that one spells out eighty and the other one say 80. How will you ever determine what's what? Frustrating? Sure.)
P.s.: Posthumously shoot the translators and publishers who created the mess in the first place ;-)
4Nicole_VanK
I don't know if it's technically possible to explode things that have been entered exactly the same way but still mean different things. But then I'm not terribly computer techie; if it could be done...
5Keeline
#2 by @BarkingMatt>
On the title I gave in its most popular form, Around the World in Eighty Days, there is not just the problem of giving the number Around the World in 80 Days (picked the film title by Palin as a default in the touchstone I see), but also titles like Tour of the World in Eighty Days and the numeric equivalent. Usually, though, these are combined.
Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea are the same thing. Same problem with Eight Hundred Leagues on the Amazon and 800 Leagues on the Amazon.
More complicated are the situations where a long story is broken into two or three books (like my second example from a long work called La Jangada) and the whole thing is sometimes retitled to the first book title or parts are combined with the whole.
Some title variations are even more dramatic like Adventures in the Land of the Behemoth, the attractive pirated edition otherwise called Meridiana, the authorized English version. The U.K. title is closer to the French one, only reversing the order of the nationalities, The Adventures of Three Englishmen and Three Russians in South Africa.
_____
So, I could pick out the ISBNs of the original Jules Verne manuscript translations and separate them out and add a disambiguation notice to discourage combining that edition with the old bad ones. An example of this is The Sphinx of the Icefields (which I see touchstoned only to the original Poe story that Verne wrote a sequel to--more work needed there). The new version with the Frederick Paul Walter translation is based on the Jules Verne manuscript version of the story and not the one changed by his son Michel. As such, it is different, in many respects, to the one published as An Antarctic Mystery.
I don't know if this sort of thing helps only me or if others would care or benefit from it. That's one of the reasons for my bringing it up here before I do a lot of work that annoys others in the community.
James
On the title I gave in its most popular form, Around the World in Eighty Days, there is not just the problem of giving the number Around the World in 80 Days (picked the film title by Palin as a default in the touchstone I see), but also titles like Tour of the World in Eighty Days and the numeric equivalent. Usually, though, these are combined.
Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea are the same thing. Same problem with Eight Hundred Leagues on the Amazon and 800 Leagues on the Amazon.
More complicated are the situations where a long story is broken into two or three books (like my second example from a long work called La Jangada) and the whole thing is sometimes retitled to the first book title or parts are combined with the whole.
Some title variations are even more dramatic like Adventures in the Land of the Behemoth, the attractive pirated edition otherwise called Meridiana, the authorized English version. The U.K. title is closer to the French one, only reversing the order of the nationalities, The Adventures of Three Englishmen and Three Russians in South Africa.
_____
So, I could pick out the ISBNs of the original Jules Verne manuscript translations and separate them out and add a disambiguation notice to discourage combining that edition with the old bad ones. An example of this is The Sphinx of the Icefields (which I see touchstoned only to the original Poe story that Verne wrote a sequel to--more work needed there). The new version with the Frederick Paul Walter translation is based on the Jules Verne manuscript version of the story and not the one changed by his son Michel. As such, it is different, in many respects, to the one published as An Antarctic Mystery.
I don't know if this sort of thing helps only me or if others would care or benefit from it. That's one of the reasons for my bringing it up here before I do a lot of work that annoys others in the community.
James
6Nicole_VanK
Oh, I think, if we could bring it about, it would benefit many. Yes, okay, maybe not the people who think Disney's Bambi equals that by Salter. But what can you do. My main worry remains with those unidentifiable ones. "Around the World in Eighty Days" by Jules Verne, 363 copies... That could be dozens of very different editions.
7Keeline
#6 by @BarkingMatt>
Well, one step would be to be able to see the publisher and year and other author data when doing a separation. That's what I had in mind when writing about the current interface.
In the 1990s I managed an antiquarian bookstore specializing in old children's books. While there I worked on a number of research projects. Sometimes we'd want to have a list of all of the editions of a classic like The Secret Garden so that people who wanted to collect all of the illustrated editions could do so. For some titles like Alice's Adventures in Wonderland there are a surprising number of different illustrated editions, such a classic favorite it is.
The process for making such a bibliography in the 1990s was to use a set of books published by H.W. Wilson called initially The United States Catalog and later The Cumulative Book Index. These large and heavy brown volumes listed books that were first published in a given edition in the year range for the volume. The listings usually had page counts so one could compare picture books against novel-length works. The books were useful because they had, in one alphabet, entries by author, title, and subject. The latter was helpful in building lists of horse fiction and stories, etc.
Another important resource for this kind of book was a two volume set published by R.R. Bowker, the ISBN and Books in Print entity in the U.S. It was called Fiction, Folklore, Fantasy & Poetry for Children. These have separate alphabets for authors, illustrators, and titles (no subjects). With them, though, we can find information on publishers, page counts, illustrators, and LCCN/ISBN (when available). They were expensive to buy new but libraries have gotten rid of these so they can show up cheaply on the used book databases. I had to get the volumes separately but it was well worth it to have them at home for U.S. children's books from 1876 to 1985.
Hence, if I could "see" the publisher and year (along with other author data), it would be easier to use these resources and group things that are not the same. I haven't tried this in a while so I don't know what improvements have been made on the /editions page.
James
Well, one step would be to be able to see the publisher and year and other author data when doing a separation. That's what I had in mind when writing about the current interface.
In the 1990s I managed an antiquarian bookstore specializing in old children's books. While there I worked on a number of research projects. Sometimes we'd want to have a list of all of the editions of a classic like The Secret Garden so that people who wanted to collect all of the illustrated editions could do so. For some titles like Alice's Adventures in Wonderland there are a surprising number of different illustrated editions, such a classic favorite it is.
The process for making such a bibliography in the 1990s was to use a set of books published by H.W. Wilson called initially The United States Catalog and later The Cumulative Book Index. These large and heavy brown volumes listed books that were first published in a given edition in the year range for the volume. The listings usually had page counts so one could compare picture books against novel-length works. The books were useful because they had, in one alphabet, entries by author, title, and subject. The latter was helpful in building lists of horse fiction and stories, etc.
Another important resource for this kind of book was a two volume set published by R.R. Bowker, the ISBN and Books in Print entity in the U.S. It was called Fiction, Folklore, Fantasy & Poetry for Children. These have separate alphabets for authors, illustrators, and titles (no subjects). With them, though, we can find information on publishers, page counts, illustrators, and LCCN/ISBN (when available). They were expensive to buy new but libraries have gotten rid of these so they can show up cheaply on the used book databases. I had to get the volumes separately but it was well worth it to have them at home for U.S. children's books from 1876 to 1985.
Hence, if I could "see" the publisher and year (along with other author data), it would be easier to use these resources and group things that are not the same. I haven't tried this in a while so I don't know what improvements have been made on the /editions page.
James
8JerryMmm
Thanks for the information on the translations. It seems the best editions I should be getting are the Dutch ones after all, if you say the other languages are more or less unabridged.
9Nicole_VanK
For some titles like Alice's Adventures in Wonderland there are a surprising number of different illustrated editions, such a classic favorite it is.
Tell me about it ;-) Carroll is something of an obsession for me.
Tell me about it ;-) Carroll is something of an obsession for me.
10Keeline
#8 by @JerryMmm>
There is an international group called the Jules Verne Forum. It is common to see posts in the native language of each participant though English and French are the most common. From it I have learned that there is a Dutch Jules Verne society and they would be the best informed on the quality of translations there. In particular, look for postings by Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd.
James
There is an international group called the Jules Verne Forum. It is common to see posts in the native language of each participant though English and French are the most common. From it I have learned that there is a Dutch Jules Verne society and they would be the best informed on the quality of translations there. In particular, look for postings by Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd.
James
11Tumler100
#2 by BarkingMatt> "P.s.: Posthumously shoot the translators and publishers who created the mess in the first place ;-)"
Why posthumously?
Most works translated today has no reference to the Original Title, and often no tranlator listed.
Twenty yeas ago most books here came with edition history in the colofon as well.
And as they now start using the same ISBN for different editions (where covers and other details are changed) the value of ISBN degrades.
Why posthumously?
Most works translated today has no reference to the Original Title, and often no tranlator listed.
Twenty yeas ago most books here came with edition history in the colofon as well.
And as they now start using the same ISBN for different editions (where covers and other details are changed) the value of ISBN degrades.
12MarthaJeanne
Actually, most books translated into German today have the information on the title page that it was translated, the original language and the transtator. Most of them also have the original title on the back of the title page or whereever the publishing information is.
I see that the book I borrowed from the library today does not have info on the title page itself, but the back says :
Die englische Originalausgabe erschien 2011 unter dem title...
Copyright c2011 by The ivy Press Ltd.
Aus dem Englischen uebersetzt von ...
...
ISBN ...
Alle Rechte vorbehalten
Copyright c2012 fuer die deutsch...
Is this really not in Norwegian books?
I see that the book I borrowed from the library today does not have info on the title page itself, but the back says :
Die englische Originalausgabe erschien 2011 unter dem title...
Copyright c2011 by The ivy Press Ltd.
Aus dem Englischen uebersetzt von ...
...
ISBN ...
Alle Rechte vorbehalten
Copyright c2012 fuer die deutsch...
Is this really not in Norwegian books?
13PhaedraB
There's a lot of country-to-country variation.
I often go to WorldCat to check foreign language editions. For many of them, I will find the translator and original title under details, but pretty consistently will not find original title listed for Dutch editions. I've had much better luck for other languages.
I often go to WorldCat to check foreign language editions. For many of them, I will find the translator and original title under details, but pretty consistently will not find original title listed for Dutch editions. I've had much better luck for other languages.
14Nicole_VanK
Yeah. While such info usually is in the actual Dutch books, for some reason Dutch librarians rarely bother to catalogue it.
15Scorbet
>12 MarthaJeanne:
I love the fact that a lot of them have:
"Aus dem Amerikanischen uebersetzt von ..."
I love the fact that a lot of them have:
"Aus dem Amerikanischen uebersetzt von ..."
16MarthaJeanne
Yes! I like that too. Not sure what they are trying to say with that.
17MissWatson
I think it is meant to reflect that most of the translators have studied either "Amerikanistik" or "Anglistik" (which is roughly British English studies and American English studies).
18Tumler100
#12
Sorry polled my own norwegian translated books and they refer to the original title. Most also refers the original publisher. One refered to an edition (but its not the first edition, and the the original title is wrong).
My impression must stem from english editions. The last one of them makes a job of listing all the english versions in the US, UK... but does not mention original title, or editions.
Sorry polled my own norwegian translated books and they refer to the original title. Most also refers the original publisher. One refered to an edition (but its not the first edition, and the the original title is wrong).
My impression must stem from english editions. The last one of them makes a job of listing all the english versions in the US, UK... but does not mention original title, or editions.
19MarthaJeanne
I just saw one in the library catalogue that is tranlated from Australian English. Drat I had hoped that they would have it in the original. (like two other books by that author.)
