What is Brexit? Part 2
This is a continuation of the topic What is Brexit?.
This topic was continued by Brexit? Part 3.
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3madpoet
I'm a bit disappointed in the EU reaction to Brexit. There has been a lot of condemnation of British voters and talk of 'punishing' Britain to discourage other countries from leaving. But where is the self-criticism of EU leaders? This would be a good moment to stop and consider WHY Britons decided to quit the union, and why-- if everything is so great in the EU-- its leaders are so worried about others following suit. What is the EU doing wrong, and how can they change to make the EU more appealing, at least to its remaining members? Or is the EU perfect, and it is all the fault of those damn Britons?
4proximity1
Le Monde Diplomatique
Une Europe à refaire
par Serge Halimi *
... ...
" Car, cette fois, il sera difficile d’ignorer le suffrage universel en s’appuyant sur une classe politique désavouée par le résultat du référendum du 23 juin afin de rafistoler un arrangement rejeté par le peuple. Nul n’imagine à Londres un déni démocratique aussi flagrant que celui qui fut perpétré en France et aux Pays-Bas au lendemain du vote négatif de mai et juin 2005 sur le traité constitutionnel européen. Il est également douteux que les Britanniques puissent être traités avec autant de mépris que les Grecs, qui, en guise de réponse à leur demande de réorientation du cours de l’Union européenne, furent asphyxiés financièrement et contraints d’accepter une purge sociale aux effets économiques désastreux.
" En 1967, le général de Gaulle s’opposa à l’entrée du Royaume-Uni dans la Communauté économique européenne parce qu’il refusait « la création d’une zone de libre-échange de l’Europe occidentale, en attendant la zone atlantique, laquelle ôterait à notre continent sa propre personnalité ». Il serait toutefois injuste d’imputer à Londres la seule responsabilité d’un tel effacement, tant celui-ci trouva de mains complices à Berlin, Paris, Rome, Madrid… Au point qu’on ne voit pas trop quelle « personnalité », quelle spécificité l’Union européenne défend encore (lire « Le legs britannique à l’Europe »). Il est d’ailleurs éclairant que, pour tenter de prévenir le départ du Royaume-Uni, celle-ci ait consenti sans grande difficulté à une disposition qui aurait suspendu les aides sociales pour les travailleurs d’autres pays européens, et à une autre qui aurait accordé une protection renforcée aux intérêts du secteur financier.
" Projet d’élites intellectuelles né dans un monde clivé par la guerre froide, l’Union a raté il y a un quart de siècle l’une des grandes bifurcations de l’histoire, un autre possible. La chute de l’URSS offrait au Vieux Continent l’occasion de refonder un projet susceptible de satisfaire l’aspiration des populations à la justice sociale et à la paix. Encore aurait-il fallu ne pas craindre de défaire et de reconstruire l’architecture bureaucratique érigée subrepticement à côté des nations, changer le moteur libre-échangiste de cette machine. L’Union eût alors opposé au triomphe de la concurrence planétaire un modèle de coopération régionale, de protection sociale, d’intégration par le haut des populations de l’ex-bloc de l’Est.
" Mais au lieu d’une communauté, elle a créé un grand marché. Bardé de commissaires, de règles pour les États, de punitions pour les populations, mais grand ouvert à une concurrence déloyale pour les travailleurs. Sans âme et sans autre volonté que celle de complaire aux plus aisés et aux mieux connectés des places financières et des grandes métropoles. L’Union ne nourrit plus qu’un imaginaire de pénitences et d’austérité, immanquablement justifié par l’argument du moindre mal.
" On ne prendra pas la mesure de la protestation que vient d’exprimer le vote britannique en le taxant de populisme ou de xénophobie. Ce n’est pas non plus en amputant encore davantage les souverainetés nationales au profit d’une Europe fédérale dont presque personne ne veut que des élites politiques autistes et discréditées répondront à la colère populaire qui vient de se libérer au Royaume-Uni, et qui monte ailleurs…"
* Serge Halimi : editorial director, Le Monde Diplomatique
5Jesse_wiedinmyer
>3 madpoet:
My guess would be that you don't get to leave the team and still enjoy the perks of membership.
My guess would be that you don't get to leave the team and still enjoy the perks of membership.
6proximity1
222
RE : Rafael Behr's "Of course the Brexiters didn't plan. Arsonists never carry water"
How in the world is it even necessary to point out so blatantly obvious a fact? :
-- until the issue had become vested by the referendum's resulting "Leave" victory, the practical details of exit, having never before been dealt with in a case such as this, were not even open to more than purely speculative discussuon of preparation since, as is even now being made clear by Merkel and others and by Juncker, absent a formal invocation of Article 50, no one in actual authority would even discuss these questions.
RE : Rafael Behr's "Of course the Brexiters didn't plan. Arsonists never carry water"
How in the world is it even necessary to point out so blatantly obvious a fact? :
-- until the issue had become vested by the referendum's resulting "Leave" victory, the practical details of exit, having never before been dealt with in a case such as this, were not even open to more than purely speculative discussuon of preparation since, as is even now being made clear by Merkel and others and by Juncker, absent a formal invocation of Article 50, no one in actual authority would even discuss these questions.
7John5918
>3 madpoet: This would be a good moment to stop and consider WHY Britons decided to quit the union
Indeed. And there's a lot of indications that it wasn't primarily because of the EU, but because of a whole lot of intersecting factors, including xenophobia, a protest at the British political establishment, a power struggle within the Tory party, complacency within the opposition, an irresponsible media. Concerns about the substance of the EU could have been resolved by negotiation without leaving, so as you say, why did a narrow majority of Britons vote for the leave option (which arguably is different from deciding to leave)?
Indeed. And there's a lot of indications that it wasn't primarily because of the EU, but because of a whole lot of intersecting factors, including xenophobia, a protest at the British political establishment, a power struggle within the Tory party, complacency within the opposition, an irresponsible media. Concerns about the substance of the EU could have been resolved by negotiation without leaving, so as you say, why did a narrow majority of Britons vote for the leave option (which arguably is different from deciding to leave)?
8John5918
I find it interesting reading analysis from people who are not part of the UK or EU, and thus perhaps have a degree of objectivity a little greater than can be found amongst those within the fray. In today's Daily Nation, a Kenyan political analyst observes:
There is little doubt that a perfect storm of intersecting global and local events hastened Britain’s exit.
Growing xenophobia and nationalism on the rise across Europe nudged by the refugee crisis triggered by long-running instability in the Middle East was the swing factor that determined the referendum outcome.
The Leave campaign proponents cleverly tapped into the fear and resentment directed at these new arrivals as well as thousands of immigrants from less affluent Eastern European countries...
For the rural poor and the working class, the referendum was a godsend opportunity to make their anger felt and to teach the complacent government a lesson.
The merits and rational reasons for Britain to remain in the EU were irrelevant.
In the end, an emotionally charged campaign for Britain’s exit from the EU carried the day.
The Brexit referendum debate was so emotionally charged that it drowned out any rational voices.
There simply was not any room for a considered and rational contest of ideas. I consider that a tragedy...
9proximity1
>7 John5918:
● xenophobia,
● a protest at the British political establishment,
● a power struggle within the Tory party,
● complacency within the opposition,
● an irresponsible media.
The last thing many people are prepared to do, upon finding themselves on the losing side of a hotly-contested referendum question, is to admit the likelihood that their victorious opponents actually knew and understood what they wanted to do and why they were convinced it was necessary.
"Concerns about the substance of the EU could have been resolved by negotiation without leaving" ...
No. That they couldn't have been was proven again and again by bitter experience--just not your bitter experience. Ask the Greeks, now living as debt-colonists within the E.U. about it.
● xenophobia,
● a protest at the British political establishment,
● a power struggle within the Tory party,
● complacency within the opposition,
● an irresponsible media.
The last thing many people are prepared to do, upon finding themselves on the losing side of a hotly-contested referendum question, is to admit the likelihood that their victorious opponents actually knew and understood what they wanted to do and why they were convinced it was necessary.
"Concerns about the substance of the EU could have been resolved by negotiation without leaving" ...
No. That they couldn't have been was proven again and again by bitter experience--just not your bitter experience. Ask the Greeks, now living as debt-colonists within the E.U. about it.
10John5918
Another view from Africa:
Brexit storm hits markets and trade everywhere
I can confirm that the pound has lost more than 10% of its value against the Kenya currency in the last few days.
Brexit storm hits markets and trade everywhere
I can confirm that the pound has lost more than 10% of its value against the Kenya currency in the last few days.
11John5918
>9 proximity1:
Everything is very black and white in your analysis. No room for complexity, for grey areas, for both/and?
Everything is very black and white in your analysis. No room for complexity, for grey areas, for both/and?
12bnielsen
>7 John5918: My guess is that quite a lot of the reasons can be summed up to "because they are Britons".
I'm from Denmark and there are lots of really obvious practical benefits from the membership, that would be a lot less visible if we lived on an island and didn't have the same amount of travel across the borders.
I put the blame on Cameron. (Not that there isn't blame enough to give a bunch of it to Corbyn, the press, etc. but Cameron could have avoided having the referendum (probably ditching his political career, I agree).)
Maybe you should just leave it all to Iceland :-)
I'm from Denmark and there are lots of really obvious practical benefits from the membership, that would be a lot less visible if we lived on an island and didn't have the same amount of travel across the borders.
I put the blame on Cameron. (Not that there isn't blame enough to give a bunch of it to Corbyn, the press, etc. but Cameron could have avoided having the referendum (probably ditching his political career, I agree).)
Maybe you should just leave it all to Iceland :-)
13proximity1
RE : " The Brexit referendum debate was so emotionally charged that it drowned out any rational voices."
Note : at its site of publication, this article shows it was "shared" by readers 16 733 times --for a minimum of 33 466 viewers.
" The leftwing case for Brexit is strategic and clear. The EU is not – and cannot become – a democracy. Instead, it provides the most hospitable ecosystem in the developed world for rentier monopoly corporations, tax-dodging elites and organised crime. It has an executive so powerful it could crush the leftwing government of Greece; a legislature so weak that it cannot effectively determine laws or control its own civil service. A judiciary that, in the Laval and Viking judgments, subordinated workers’ right to strike to an employer’s right do business freely.
" Its central bank is committed, by treaty, to favour deflation and stagnation over growth. State aid to stricken industries is prohibited. The austerity we deride in Britain as a political choice is, in fact, written into the EU treaty as a non-negotiable obligation. So are the economic principles of the Thatcher era. A Corbyn-led Labour government would have to implement its manifesto in defiance of EU law.
" And the situation is getting worse. Europe’s leaders still do not know whether they will let Greece go bankrupt in June; they still have no workable plan to distribute the refugees Germany accepted last summer, and having signed a morally bankrupt deal with Turkey to return the refugees, there is now the prospect of that deal’s collapse. That means, if the reported demand by an unnamed Belgian minister to “push back or sink” migrant boats in the Aegean is activated, the hands of every citizen of the EU will be metaphorically on the tiller of the ship that does it. You may argue that Britain treats migrants just as badly. The difference is that in Britain I can replace the government, whereas in the EU, I cannot.
" That’s the principled leftwing case for Brexit." ...
... ... ...
(complete article at link)
The Leftwing Case for Brexit (One day) by Paul Mason Monday, 16 May 2016
Note : at its site of publication, this article shows it was "shared" by readers 16 733 times --for a minimum of 33 466 viewers.
15abbottthomas
So, Boris has left the stage. I guess he's decided to let the shit settle before he sticks his head up again.
Lots in the UK would like a second referendum - it's a good EU tradition, actually. Our 'leaders' are saying that we won't have one because "the people have spoken and their decision must be respected". Can anyone explain why another referendum would be any less valid? More so, in fact, because 'The People' have had a peek into Pandora's Box and also have had the confirmation from the Brexiteers that their campaign promises were 'propositions' or even mistakes.
Lots in the UK would like a second referendum - it's a good EU tradition, actually. Our 'leaders' are saying that we won't have one because "the people have spoken and their decision must be respected". Can anyone explain why another referendum would be any less valid? More so, in fact, because 'The People' have had a peek into Pandora's Box and also have had the confirmation from the Brexiteers that their campaign promises were 'propositions' or even mistakes.
16jjwilson61
I would have thought that a momentous change like an exit from the EU should have required two referendums at least six months apart to ensure that the vote doesn't represent a passing political fad.
17abbottthomas
>16 jjwilson61: In organisations with which I have been associated a significant change in the constitution requires more than a simple majority - usually a 2/3 majority, and the quorum is specified.
18Jesse_wiedinmyer
So, Boris has left the stage. I guess he's decided to let the shit settle before he sticks his head up again.
Victory is an orphan, but defeat has a thousand...
Hold on here.
Victory is an orphan, but defeat has a thousand...
Hold on here.
19John5918
>18 Jesse_wiedinmyer:
Boris has bottled out. Of course if he were an honest sort of fellow who really believed in the necessity of leaving the EU for Britain's sake, he would now leap at the opportunity to lead his country forward in this exciting new endeavour that he led the campaign for. However it's quite clear to him and everybody that whoever actually has to implement this mess in the coming two years or so is going to become extremely unpopular, especially when many of the promises made turn out to have been lies. He doesn't want to be tarred with that brush. He hopes that by the time he reactivates his bid for the Tory party leadership in a few years time, the dust will have settled and people will have forgotten his record.
Boris has bottled out. Of course if he were an honest sort of fellow who really believed in the necessity of leaving the EU for Britain's sake, he would now leap at the opportunity to lead his country forward in this exciting new endeavour that he led the campaign for. However it's quite clear to him and everybody that whoever actually has to implement this mess in the coming two years or so is going to become extremely unpopular, especially when many of the promises made turn out to have been lies. He doesn't want to be tarred with that brush. He hopes that by the time he reactivates his bid for the Tory party leadership in a few years time, the dust will have settled and people will have forgotten his record.
20John5918
183 and 186 of the first part of this thread:
Michael Gove (prominent Leave campaigner and standing for leadership of the Tory party):
"The decision to trigger Article 50 is in the hands of the next prime minister. If that is me, I will make a judgement as to when is right for Britain and I won't be hurried or hassled by anyone into pressing that button or triggering that article until I believe it is right for this country" (BBC)
No hurry.
Michael Gove (prominent Leave campaigner and standing for leadership of the Tory party):
"The decision to trigger Article 50 is in the hands of the next prime minister. If that is me, I will make a judgement as to when is right for Britain and I won't be hurried or hassled by anyone into pressing that button or triggering that article until I believe it is right for this country" (BBC)
No hurry.
22abbottthomas
>20 John5918: Mind you, this same Gove, only a few days ago said categorically that he would not put himself forward for the Tory leadership. Can we rely on anything he says?
23librorumamans
>22 abbottthomas: Have a gander at Wikipedia. He doesn't look like someone I'd trust my future to, and his Brutus impersonation doesn't improve his looks.
24John5918
>19 John5918:
Lovely headline in today's Grauniad:
Bye bye, Boris, the man who wouldn’t clear up his own mess
Lovely headline in today's Grauniad:
Bye bye, Boris, the man who wouldn’t clear up his own mess
25proximity1
>15 abbottthomas:
"Can anyone explain why another referendum would be any less valid?"
Well, gee! "let's try and see if 'there are any good reasons why.'"
First, maybe you'd see a virtue in respecting a solemnly undertaken right: democratic participation in the expression of popular majority (as indicated by the ballots) opinion--not done as a vain exercise or simply for its own sake but done with the understanding that the ruling power shall respect and be bound by the outcome.
Maybe you'd recognise in the arbitrary setting aside of such a vote the demonstration of flagrant contempt for the voting public--in whose name and by whose authority the government finds whatever legitimacy it has in the first place. Maybe it would occur to you that to dismiss this vote is to invite widespread public disaffection with the political system, to further an already existing sense of injustice in that system and the public's feelings of alienation from it.
Maybe--if you gave it ten seconds of thought--it would occur to you that to re-run the vote now suggests that its real purpose is not to sound out and find out the majority of the public's view but, rather, to try and arrange for a vote which approves a predetermined and already foreclosed course--with the desperate-looking presumption that, if given one more chance, the voters might come up with the "right answer."
Then, too, maybe you'd recall from the time of your own early childhood how it struck you, even then, as outrageously unfair to conduct a process under an understood set of rules and then to change those rules post facto in order to get the opposite result from that which was produced under the rules.
If the second round also produced a "Leave" victory, do you call for a third? Why not? Why not "best three out of four"? Why not "best five out of seven votes"? Why not be fucking honest about it and announce, "Look! , you moronic plebes! We're going to keep running this until you get it right!" ?
I could see having a series of votes, sure. But that should be done according to rules set out clearly before the process produces a result that is supposed to have been determinative. The rules could be quite interestingly formed : we could, for examole, hold a minimum of two votes. If the same result occurs from both rounds, then the voting closes then and there. If the two rounds produce opposite results, then we hold two more separate votes. If those produce two opposite results, then the initial vote's outcome is taken as final. We could apply such a set of ground rules but, you see, we fucking didn't do that! and none who participated had any reason to expect that their votes weren't going to count!
"More so, in fact, because 'The People' have had a peek into Pandora's Box and also have had the confirmation from the Brexiteers that their campaign promises were 'propositions' or even mistakes."
Shall that, too, be a regular policy? Because I'd be all _for_ it! Every time the elected party's campaign promises prove to have been lies, that party is removed from power and a fresh election is held. Yes. Let's do that. But let's do it regularly rather than merely in the present case merely because your camp lost and you'd like another chance to beat your opponents.
The difference in the two, you see, is called "principle." Ever heard of it?
"Can anyone explain why another referendum would be any less valid?"
Well, gee! "let's try and see if 'there are any good reasons why.'"
First, maybe you'd see a virtue in respecting a solemnly undertaken right: democratic participation in the expression of popular majority (as indicated by the ballots) opinion--not done as a vain exercise or simply for its own sake but done with the understanding that the ruling power shall respect and be bound by the outcome.
Maybe you'd recognise in the arbitrary setting aside of such a vote the demonstration of flagrant contempt for the voting public--in whose name and by whose authority the government finds whatever legitimacy it has in the first place. Maybe it would occur to you that to dismiss this vote is to invite widespread public disaffection with the political system, to further an already existing sense of injustice in that system and the public's feelings of alienation from it.
Maybe--if you gave it ten seconds of thought--it would occur to you that to re-run the vote now suggests that its real purpose is not to sound out and find out the majority of the public's view but, rather, to try and arrange for a vote which approves a predetermined and already foreclosed course--with the desperate-looking presumption that, if given one more chance, the voters might come up with the "right answer."
Then, too, maybe you'd recall from the time of your own early childhood how it struck you, even then, as outrageously unfair to conduct a process under an understood set of rules and then to change those rules post facto in order to get the opposite result from that which was produced under the rules.
If the second round also produced a "Leave" victory, do you call for a third? Why not? Why not "best three out of four"? Why not "best five out of seven votes"? Why not be fucking honest about it and announce, "Look! , you moronic plebes! We're going to keep running this until you get it right!" ?
I could see having a series of votes, sure. But that should be done according to rules set out clearly before the process produces a result that is supposed to have been determinative. The rules could be quite interestingly formed : we could, for examole, hold a minimum of two votes. If the same result occurs from both rounds, then the voting closes then and there. If the two rounds produce opposite results, then we hold two more separate votes. If those produce two opposite results, then the initial vote's outcome is taken as final. We could apply such a set of ground rules but, you see, we fucking didn't do that! and none who participated had any reason to expect that their votes weren't going to count!
"More so, in fact, because 'The People' have had a peek into Pandora's Box and also have had the confirmation from the Brexiteers that their campaign promises were 'propositions' or even mistakes."
Shall that, too, be a regular policy? Because I'd be all _for_ it! Every time the elected party's campaign promises prove to have been lies, that party is removed from power and a fresh election is held. Yes. Let's do that. But let's do it regularly rather than merely in the present case merely because your camp lost and you'd like another chance to beat your opponents.
The difference in the two, you see, is called "principle." Ever heard of it?
26justifiedsinner
>15 abbottthomas: Boris was stabbed in the back by Gove (a literal chinless wonder) who had previously back-stabbed Cameron (as did Boris). The Conservative Party seems to strong affinity for traitorous scum bags.
27abbottthomas
>26 justifiedsinner: A long and (dis)honourable tradition, I fear.
29John5918
Interesting scenario in today's Grauniad/Observer editorial:
A more practical scenario, floated by the Liberal Democrats’ Tim Farron among others, is that once a Brexit deal has been negotiated but not signed, possibly by 2018, it be put to the electorate for approval, either via an election or referendum. In this way, moves north of the border for a second Scottish independence vote might also be headed off.
A more practical scenario, floated by the Liberal Democrats’ Tim Farron among others, is that once a Brexit deal has been negotiated but not signed, possibly by 2018, it be put to the electorate for approval, either via an election or referendum. In this way, moves north of the border for a second Scottish independence vote might also be headed off.
30abbottthomas
>29 John5918: Isn't this just another example of the magical thinking rife among depressed Remainers (including me)? I don't think that the rest of the EU would go along with that kind of deal, at least not without the insistence that we joined the Euro, like all other new applicants.
31John5918
>29 John5918:
Yes, I think you're right. Once Article 50 has been officially invoked, that is the irrevocable beginning of the end. We get two years to negotiate the exit deal, but at the end of that two years there is no option of going back to the status quo ante; whether or not the people of UK like the deal which their dysfunctional government will have negotiated is irrelevant.
Yes, I think you're right. Once Article 50 has been officially invoked, that is the irrevocable beginning of the end. We get two years to negotiate the exit deal, but at the end of that two years there is no option of going back to the status quo ante; whether or not the people of UK like the deal which their dysfunctional government will have negotiated is irrelevant.
32abbottthomas
Tony Blair appeared on the radio today sounding surprisingly statesmanlike, suggesting that we might yet stagger back from the brink. Back to magical thinking!
33RickHarsch
I thought Blair WAS the brink.
34abbottthomas
>33 RickHarsch: I think he is trying to ingratiate himself before the Chilcot enquiry report comes out (at last!).
35RickHarsch
Is that the scandal where he was up to something funny in the toilet with that hyphenated French demi-rapist or rapist?
36John5918
>35 RickHarsch:
More to do with the scandal where he started an arguably illegal war a couple of weeks after he had publicly promised the British people that he would not do so unless there was a second UN resolution...
More to do with the scandal where he started an arguably illegal war a couple of weeks after he had publicly promised the British people that he would not do so unless there was a second UN resolution...
37RickHarsch
A bit late, but welcome news that someone gets punished...
38John5918
>31 John5918:
Nick Clegg in the Grauniad this time, arguing that we need a General Election.
"The EU referendum has exploded constitutional, political and economic conventions. Our country is in a tailspin..."
And another approach:
EU referendum: government faces legal action over Brexit decision (Guardian)
Law firm says article 50 cannot be triggered without full debate and vote by parliament
Brexit: Legal steps seek to ensure Commons vote on Article 50 (BBC)
Nick Clegg in the Grauniad this time, arguing that we need a General Election.
"The EU referendum has exploded constitutional, political and economic conventions. Our country is in a tailspin..."
And another approach:
EU referendum: government faces legal action over Brexit decision (Guardian)
Law firm says article 50 cannot be triggered without full debate and vote by parliament
Brexit: Legal steps seek to ensure Commons vote on Article 50 (BBC)
39John5918
>37 RickHarsch:
Tony Blair faces calls for impeachment on release of Chilcot report (Guardian)
Labour and SNP figures consider legal action against former PM to ban him from office over role in Iraq war
Edited to fix link
Tony Blair faces calls for impeachment on release of Chilcot report (Guardian)
Labour and SNP figures consider legal action against former PM to ban him from office over role in Iraq war
Edited to fix link
40RickHarsch
Thanks John
41RickHarsch
I just read that the report does not examine the issues of legality/illegality--so the thing has no teeth. In fact, I read a report of a clear lie told by Blair (regarding the reliability of information he was passing on) that was then reported to be not a lie at all, that he believed what he was saying. It becomes Orwellian...
42John5918
>41 RickHarsch:
Anything to do with Tony Blair is both Orwellian and Machiavellian. He's an archetypal Teflon man. Nothing sticks to him. I doubt whether there will be any official sanction against him, despite the hopes raised in that Grauniad article, but at least more of it will be out in the open and people can make their own judgement, if they haven't already done so.
Anything to do with Tony Blair is both Orwellian and Machiavellian. He's an archetypal Teflon man. Nothing sticks to him. I doubt whether there will be any official sanction against him, despite the hopes raised in that Grauniad article, but at least more of it will be out in the open and people can make their own judgement, if they haven't already done so.
43proximity1
‘Let’s put an end to the sneering at the Vote Leave folk’
--by Gisela Stuart
"Just over a week ago, more than 33 million people, having reflected on our 43-year membership of what started as the Common Market and became the European Union, cast their vote in a UK-wide referendum.
"52% voted to leave, 48% thought we should remain. Politicians, having put the responsibility to make such a significant and far-reaching decision to the people, now have a duty to implement that decision.
"Let us, just for a moment, imagine if the outcome had been reversed and 52% had voted to remain. If there had been an online petition to ignore the vote, calls for MPs to overturn the result, a demand for a second referendum, what would have been the response? Vote Leave people such as me would have been laughed at, branded bad losers and told to just go away and get on with it, that the people had spoken. But this is just what is happening. I have heard it said that old people shouldn’t have been allowed to vote. That this was a referendum about the future and that the under-40s have been disenfranchised. There is talk of deception or that this was all too complicated. In essence, the insinuation is the nice and bright voted remain, while the unsophisticated, simple folk voted leave.
"Let’s put an end to this London-centric sneering and belittling, then pause and reflect on what needs to be done. The nation and much of the media seem to be having a collective nervous breakdown. Westminster in general and individual politicians in particular need to accept that this vote wasn’t about them. It was about the people of the United Kingdom deciding how they wished to be governed. They were clear. They wanted to take back control over their borders, their taxation system and their laws.
"The turmoil in both political parties is the manifestation of a much deeper malaise. The referendum was arguably the first chance in the past 20 years where casting your vote made a decisive difference. Since the Labour landslide in 1997, the main parties have at the core become managerial rather than ideological. The referendum was different – 72% of the electorate took part and delivered a conclusive majority vote. There is no going back. The whole point of political parties and democratic institutions is to mediate between mob rule and bureaucratic tyranny. They have to give shape to the will of people in a fair and balanced way." ... ( more)
44theoria
>43 proximity1: Much of the Leave vote was driven by cultural ressentiment, false hope, revanchism, and anachronistic nationalism. Mr Farage was the leading voice for all four. Now that Farage -- the heart and soul of the Leave campaign -- has quit, it's time to Breverse.
45RickHarsch
>44 theoria: It has certainly become a comedy.
46abbottthomas
>44 theoria: Farage certainly wants to take the credit and he surely was a front man in the campaign but I think the heart and soul of 'Leave' was the gang of Eurosceptic MPs in the Tory party who have been complaining and causing internal stress for forty years. A plague on their houses!
47proximity1
Alain Juppé, one of ten (so far) announced French Conservative party candidates for the next presidential election (April & May, 2017) is visiting London today and says that a bilateral deal between Fr. and the U.K. could be reached which would provide for "free-movement" of workers between Britain and the E.U.
The details aren't set out.
The details aren't set out.
50LolaWalser
Who needs a laugh? Everyone needs a laugh!
How The Internet Reacted To The Most Ridiculous Week British Politics Has Ever Seen

How The Internet Reacted To The Most Ridiculous Week British Politics Has Ever Seen

51RickHarsch
>5 Jesse_wiedinmyer: I can't believe you would say such a thing on the eve of Bobby Bonilla day.
53John5918
>50 LolaWalser:
Brilliant. Thanks, Lola. And so true - so many of those who led the leave campaign are not backing off, as they have no idea what to do next and they know they will be tainted by the mess.
Brilliant. Thanks, Lola. And so true - so many of those who led the leave campaign are not backing off, as they have no idea what to do next and they know they will be tainted by the mess.
54John5918
Armstrong and Miller - Polish Plumbers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd8oX5NJt84
55LolaWalser
Enuff chuckles!
Racism After Brexit Is ‘Celebratory’ And ‘Englishness’ Is Becoming Exclusively White And Christian, Says Expert
But then we know what to think of "experts", DON'T WE.
Racism After Brexit Is ‘Celebratory’ And ‘Englishness’ Is Becoming Exclusively White And Christian, Says Expert
But then we know what to think of "experts", DON'T WE.
56proximity1
Your taxes at work:
First--preliminaries: Assemble senior civil servants and elected officials. Draw up priority action lists; delegate the work according to area specialization: health care, public and private transport --ground-sea-air; communcations, agriculture trade, manufacturing trade, finance and banking, education, employment, police and public safety, military relations; etc.
Then: invoke Article 50.
Or pin your hopes on taking any one of several evasive tacks based on technicalities,--parliamentary, judicial, political, to weasel out of seriously following through --not least being, simply lie to people--tell them "Brexit" shall go ahead while simply undermining it and rendering the vote null and void for practical purposes.
That would be in keeping with your petty, insulting attitude.
Wahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! It's not FAIRRRRRRRRR!!! I voted (or I didn't vote) and I didn't get what I wanted!!!!!!
57theoria
>55 LolaWalser: The Brexitears plan to form a new "Anglosphere": the UK (i.e., England & Wales), US, Canada, and Oz.
58LolaWalser
>57 theoria:
Canada? But we have Muslims and Eastern Europeans and black people and super-intelligent raccoons!
Toronto is 51% foreign-born, with people from over 230 countries, making it by many assessments, the most diverse city in the world.
That said, I have noticed a definite upsurge in British accents around me these days--yes, seriously. The Remainers are Leaving!
Canada? But we have Muslims and Eastern Europeans and black people and super-intelligent raccoons!
Toronto is 51% foreign-born, with people from over 230 countries, making it by many assessments, the most diverse city in the world.
That said, I have noticed a definite upsurge in British accents around me these days--yes, seriously. The Remainers are Leaving!
59theoria
>58 LolaWalser: I didn't say they were knowledgeable!
60RickHarsch
>54 John5918: Brilliant.
61Jesse_wiedinmyer
"Let us, just for a moment, imagine if the outcome had been reversed and 52% had voted to remain. If there had been an online petition to ignore the vote, calls for MPs to overturn the result, a demand for a second referendum,
You do realise, in point of fact, that this is the second referendum about European community that the UK has had, right? As the kids say, your argument is invalid.
And really, if you believe in direct democracy, a second vote will only reaffirm the first. Right?
You do realise, in point of fact, that this is the second referendum about European community that the UK has had, right? As the kids say, your argument is invalid.
And really, if you believe in direct democracy, a second vote will only reaffirm the first. Right?
62proximity1
"The Remainers are Leaving!"
Awwwwwww. Are they also Guardian readers?
Good! To them: "Fuck off ---- to ---- (out of Britain) ! You deserve each other!" ;^)
----------------------
"Toronto is 51% foreign-born, with people from over 230 countries, making it by many assessments, the most diverse city in the world"
Even if so, Why is this or why should this be necessarily a good thing?, a point of civic pride in and of itself?
63vancouverdeb
>62 proximity1:
Canada is definitely ethnically diverse and as a Canadian living in a very diverse city, I think that there are many advantages
Here is slightly older newspaper article which outlines the pluses of ethnic diversity. I am in the Vancouver area and have been for my entire life.
Our cultural diversity is a huge economic advantage. You see that when companies like Microsoft establish themselves here due to the diverse and talented work force. We have a huge advantage with our multilingual work force, and the fact that Vancouver is a place where many cultures feel comfortable.
Vancouver has always been a really entrepreneurial city - I think the waves of immigrants have helped foster that spirit of entrepreneurialism.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/top-employers/vancouve...
Canada is definitely ethnically diverse and as a Canadian living in a very diverse city, I think that there are many advantages
Here is slightly older newspaper article which outlines the pluses of ethnic diversity. I am in the Vancouver area and have been for my entire life.
Our cultural diversity is a huge economic advantage. You see that when companies like Microsoft establish themselves here due to the diverse and talented work force. We have a huge advantage with our multilingual work force, and the fact that Vancouver is a place where many cultures feel comfortable.
Vancouver has always been a really entrepreneurial city - I think the waves of immigrants have helped foster that spirit of entrepreneurialism.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/top-employers/vancouve...
64proximity1
>63 vancouverdeb:
You say the city's ethnic diversity is a "huge advantage" and you cite Microsoft's location as an example of a major company with a presence.
But these places are also where one finds Microsoft operating :
Microsoft Corp. :
Area headquarters : China, France, Germany, Singapore, Turkey (+U.S.) (Activity includes finance, human resources, sales, and management positions).
Development Centers :
(Canada), China, Denmark, Egypt, Germany, India, Ireland, Israel, Japan, Switzerland, the U.K. (+ U.S.)
Operations Centers : Ireland, Puerto Rico, Singapore ( + U.S.)
Research labs : China, India, the U.K., Germany, Egypt, Israel (+U.S.)
--------------
P.S. Who thinks the U.K.'s Development Center or research lab shall move as a result of "Brexit"?
RE : "According to a 2010 StatsCan study, Chinese people constitute the largest minority group in Vancouver. They will make up 23 per cent of its population by 2031, up from 18 per cent in 2006."
I wonder : Do you want more than one in five people in Vancouver to be of Chinese heritage (parentage)? If the rate of growth continues, according to the article, they will make up 23 per cent of its population by 2031. Extrapolating, they will make up 41 percent of its population by 2056, 59 percent by 2081 and 77 percent of its population by 2106.
When more than three-fourths of the people of Vancouver are of Chinese heritage, will Vancouver still feel like a Canadian city? A British Columbian city?
I can tell you that, over fifteen years living in Paris, I watched as nearly all of the city's* little corner cafés came to have local or absentee Chinese owners--with, behind the counter, at least some (and often all) ethnic Chinese counter staff.
------------
* City means the 20 boroughs (intramuros) of the city (arondissements)
You say the city's ethnic diversity is a "huge advantage" and you cite Microsoft's location as an example of a major company with a presence.
But these places are also where one finds Microsoft operating :
Microsoft Corp. :
Area headquarters : China, France, Germany, Singapore, Turkey (+U.S.) (Activity includes finance, human resources, sales, and management positions).
Development Centers :
(Canada), China, Denmark, Egypt, Germany, India, Ireland, Israel, Japan, Switzerland, the U.K. (+ U.S.)
Operations Centers : Ireland, Puerto Rico, Singapore ( + U.S.)
Research labs : China, India, the U.K., Germany, Egypt, Israel (+U.S.)
--------------
P.S. Who thinks the U.K.'s Development Center or research lab shall move as a result of "Brexit"?
RE : "According to a 2010 StatsCan study, Chinese people constitute the largest minority group in Vancouver. They will make up 23 per cent of its population by 2031, up from 18 per cent in 2006."
I wonder : Do you want more than one in five people in Vancouver to be of Chinese heritage (parentage)? If the rate of growth continues, according to the article, they will make up 23 per cent of its population by 2031. Extrapolating, they will make up 41 percent of its population by 2056, 59 percent by 2081 and 77 percent of its population by 2106.
When more than three-fourths of the people of Vancouver are of Chinese heritage, will Vancouver still feel like a Canadian city? A British Columbian city?
I can tell you that, over fifteen years living in Paris, I watched as nearly all of the city's* little corner cafés came to have local or absentee Chinese owners--with, behind the counter, at least some (and often all) ethnic Chinese counter staff.
------------
* City means the 20 boroughs (intramuros) of the city (arondissements)
65vancouverdeb
>64 proximity1: Actually I was quoting the mayor of Vancouver who made the comment re Microsoft. In the grand scheme of things, Microsoft is not a big player in Vancouver.
Here is another link for you. http://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/microsoft-to-open-new-centre-in-vancouv... and https://mcec.microsoft.ca/
My point - you asked why diversity should be a good thing . Is it just a point of pride? I suppose living in a diverse city/ community that is peaceful and lives happily together is point of pride compared to anxiety and xenophobia.
But beyond that are the economic benefits of attracting people from all countries and companies than locating here , Microsoft being just one example.
Here is another link for you. http://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/microsoft-to-open-new-centre-in-vancouv... and https://mcec.microsoft.ca/
My point - you asked why diversity should be a good thing . Is it just a point of pride? I suppose living in a diverse city/ community that is peaceful and lives happily together is point of pride compared to anxiety and xenophobia.
But beyond that are the economic benefits of attracting people from all countries and companies than locating here , Microsoft being just one example.
66proximity1
>65 vancouverdeb:
My question was more specifically (emphasis added here) :
" Why is this or why should this be necessarily a good thing?, a point of civic pride in and of itself ?"
67vancouverdeb
My city, which is about 15 minutes out of Vancouver proper, already has about 70 % people of Chinese heritage. I love it here. There is no where else in the world I'd rather live. And yes, it certainly seems like Vancouver, or British Columbia, because we are about being a welcoming and diverse community. We have plenty of Chinese cuisine and I have no issue with that. I've lived for here for 50 plus years. My son is married to young woman who immigrated from Hong Kong. She teaches elementary school , while my son works in the IT sector. Both are university graduates. I believe the Chinese and all other cultures who have come to Canada have enriched the country in so many ways.
My husband's parents were born in Europe. I think that they were a plus to Canada, fighting in WW11 and his mom training to be nurse. My brother is married to a woman who immigrated from Germany/ Tunisia. She is a nominal muslim. Their two children speak 3 languages - English, French and German. How can that be a bad thing?
My husband's parents were born in Europe. I think that they were a plus to Canada, fighting in WW11 and his mom training to be nurse. My brother is married to a woman who immigrated from Germany/ Tunisia. She is a nominal muslim. Their two children speak 3 languages - English, French and German. How can that be a bad thing?
68proximity1
"I suppose living in a diverse city/ community that is peaceful and lives happily together is point of pride compared to anxiety and xenophobia."
Paris is very ethnically diverse, too. I lived in the 11th arr., both the most ethnically diverse and the most densely populated (pop./km^2).
The now-famous Bataclan theatre is within about a six-minute walk from my building. Of the two nearest post offices to my address, one is only eight doors or so down the street from the theatre--a place I passed often, morning, afternoon and evening. The offices of Charlie Hebdo were only another four or five minute walk further--toward Place de la Bastille. (Though I'd left by the time they took up work at this location.)
A Jewish school is a three-minute walk from my building with, in the same block, Arabic bookshops--to say nothing of clothing and housewares shops, Halal butchers and other North African specialites, and cafés with shisha catering to Muslims.
Paris is very ethnically diverse, too. I lived in the 11th arr., both the most ethnically diverse and the most densely populated (pop./km^2).
The now-famous Bataclan theatre is within about a six-minute walk from my building. Of the two nearest post offices to my address, one is only eight doors or so down the street from the theatre--a place I passed often, morning, afternoon and evening. The offices of Charlie Hebdo were only another four or five minute walk further--toward Place de la Bastille. (Though I'd left by the time they took up work at this location.)
A Jewish school is a three-minute walk from my building with, in the same block, Arabic bookshops--to say nothing of clothing and housewares shops, Halal butchers and other North African specialites, and cafés with shisha catering to Muslims.
69vancouverdeb
Then I suspect you live in an area very much like I do - http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Douglas+Todd+Religions+work+together+Richmond+H...
from the link Sikhs, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians and Jews, for instance, are pleased with the way they provide overflow parking to each other, since their religious services come on different days of the week. They also sometimes share equipment and technical advice, including such issues as sewage upgrades.
Likewise we also have Halal Butches ( and in supermarkets serving the general population, Halal Certified meats ) Jewish bakeries etc.
The unrest that Paris has faced has been very unfortunate. Greater Vancouver is a peaceful place . I wonder what makes the difference?
from the link Sikhs, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians and Jews, for instance, are pleased with the way they provide overflow parking to each other, since their religious services come on different days of the week. They also sometimes share equipment and technical advice, including such issues as sewage upgrades.
Likewise we also have Halal Butches ( and in supermarkets serving the general population, Halal Certified meats ) Jewish bakeries etc.
The unrest that Paris has faced has been very unfortunate. Greater Vancouver is a peaceful place . I wonder what makes the difference?
70RickHarsch
Very disturbing news about Paris, but then we should have seen it coming what with all the Asians--not just the Chinese--mixing there for so long: you had Pik Ass Oh, Kam hu, , An Rhee Brie Tan, Stan Za Ra, Bo Var Rhee, Paulie Nair, Sen Dra, Sal Lin, Dee Rhee Da, Hu Go, Dee Dar Oh, Du Ma, Mao Pa San, Ram Bo, Bow Tie, Jan Jo Ngo, Jan Kok To, Bo Dee Lar, Jackie Brak, Rhee Nan, Mo Ne, Jean Paul Belmondo, Di Bu Var, Le Duc Sup, Ni San, to name a few. Very disturbing, those Asians in Paris.
A Korean puppet known as Rhee
Spent a few minutes in Paris
The proximate cause
Was an aerial pause
Barely time for the fellow to pee
A Korean puppet known as Rhee
Spent a few minutes in Paris
The proximate cause
Was an aerial pause
Barely time for the fellow to pee
71justifiedsinner
>70 RickHarsch: I think that Paree would work better than Paris.
72RickHarsch
Ceci n'est pas une poeme
73krolik
>69 vancouverdeb:
The unrest that Paris has faced has been very unfortunate. Greater Vancouver is a peaceful place . I wonder what makes the difference?
I don't live in Paris anymore but I used to and I'm still nearby and I often ask myself similar questions.
Am curious, if you care to elaborate, about what Vancouver might be getting right, and that other places might learn from.
I realize that this is a vast and perhaps impossible question. But even impressions might be fruitful. What makes Vancouver function, in your opinion?
The unrest that Paris has faced has been very unfortunate. Greater Vancouver is a peaceful place . I wonder what makes the difference?
I don't live in Paris anymore but I used to and I'm still nearby and I often ask myself similar questions.
Am curious, if you care to elaborate, about what Vancouver might be getting right, and that other places might learn from.
I realize that this is a vast and perhaps impossible question. But even impressions might be fruitful. What makes Vancouver function, in your opinion?
74RickHarsch
>74 RickHarsch: No one asked me but I would start with the status of France as a colonizer that engaged in bloody wars to retain their colonies from 1945 to the early 1960s and a lot of their population comes from those regions, particularly north Africa.
75krolik
>74 RickHarsch:
Agreed. It's a different history of immigration, particularly for Algerians.
Agreed. It's a different history of immigration, particularly for Algerians.
76librorumamans
>73 krolik: Am curious, if you care to elaborate, about what Vancouver might be getting right, and that other places might learn from.
I'm not going to answer for vancouverdeb. From two recent articles looking at the issue, the short answer revolves around Quebec and the extensive experience Canada has had — including all its ups and downs — with accommodating multiple cultures.
The Guardian is running a series this week on Canadian cities. The piece on Toronto makes this point.
So too, at much greater depth, does the Canada Day article in The Globe and Mail by Jeffrey Simpson, "State of the Nation". It, unfortunately, is behind a pay wall, unless people have access to a world-newspaper site through a library.
Simpson adds the further point:
I'm not going to answer for vancouverdeb. From two recent articles looking at the issue, the short answer revolves around Quebec and the extensive experience Canada has had — including all its ups and downs — with accommodating multiple cultures.
The Guardian is running a series this week on Canadian cities. The piece on Toronto makes this point.
So too, at much greater depth, does the Canada Day article in The Globe and Mail by Jeffrey Simpson, "State of the Nation". It, unfortunately, is behind a pay wall, unless people have access to a world-newspaper site through a library.
Simpson adds the further point:
It is one of the profound ironies of Canada – one that no one even thinks about – that although we praise multiculturism ..., we are the most integrationist country in the Western world. Because there is no defined way of being "Canadian", it affords the country flexibility in attitudes and institutions ....
77vancouverdeb
I'd have to do a lot of thinking on the topic, but from
>@76 I would quote this from the Guardian as part of why multiculturalism in successful in Canada, as well as our history with Quebec.
The meaning of multiculturalism in Toronto is not theoretical; it is not found in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms or in the decisions of the refugee board. The meaning of multiculturalism is found in the waterparks, among the slides and fountains, and lazy rivers and wave pools: a collection of various people of various shades speaking various languages, lounging in the shade, drinking overpriced rum drinks, eating greasy food, staring at each other’s naked and tattooed flesh, and shouting at their kids to stop splashing. There is something radical about these people leading their quiet lives out together, without much fuss. Are they one people? Does it matter if they aren’t
When you go about your business in Canada, at least in Vancouver, people pay no attention to whether some one is wearing a turban, a hijab, a niqab, a face visor, a sari , etc. People are just people.
Re Paris and Charlie Hebdo : http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/canadas-law-on-hate-speech-is-the-embodim...
One glimmer of the law’s utility might be seen in the decision by many Canadian media outlets not to re-publish the offending Charlie Hebdo cartoons, despite being sincerely awash in “Je suis Charlie” sentiment. Our Supreme Court suggested the hate speech law has symbolic value such that even without being invoked, it silently validates a national ethic of multicultural accommodation and respect; and in the decision by Canadian media not to re-publish the cartoons, that very ethic can be seen in action. So it may be that our hate speech law was a silent point of resonance with the values, not the legal obligations, that motivated the media outlets who chose not to publish.
Oh course we also have intolerant people in Canada, there is just a national ethic which I think the vast majority of Canadians follow without thinking.
>@76 I would quote this from the Guardian as part of why multiculturalism in successful in Canada, as well as our history with Quebec.
The meaning of multiculturalism in Toronto is not theoretical; it is not found in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms or in the decisions of the refugee board. The meaning of multiculturalism is found in the waterparks, among the slides and fountains, and lazy rivers and wave pools: a collection of various people of various shades speaking various languages, lounging in the shade, drinking overpriced rum drinks, eating greasy food, staring at each other’s naked and tattooed flesh, and shouting at their kids to stop splashing. There is something radical about these people leading their quiet lives out together, without much fuss. Are they one people? Does it matter if they aren’t
When you go about your business in Canada, at least in Vancouver, people pay no attention to whether some one is wearing a turban, a hijab, a niqab, a face visor, a sari , etc. People are just people.
Re Paris and Charlie Hebdo : http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/canadas-law-on-hate-speech-is-the-embodim...
One glimmer of the law’s utility might be seen in the decision by many Canadian media outlets not to re-publish the offending Charlie Hebdo cartoons, despite being sincerely awash in “Je suis Charlie” sentiment. Our Supreme Court suggested the hate speech law has symbolic value such that even without being invoked, it silently validates a national ethic of multicultural accommodation and respect; and in the decision by Canadian media not to re-publish the cartoons, that very ethic can be seen in action. So it may be that our hate speech law was a silent point of resonance with the values, not the legal obligations, that motivated the media outlets who chose not to publish.
Oh course we also have intolerant people in Canada, there is just a national ethic which I think the vast majority of Canadians follow without thinking.
78vancouverdeb
Here is picture of our Prime Minister and his cabinet, members of parliament vote in by Canadians.
79vancouverdeb
Here is our The Minister of National Defence being sworn into Cabinet. Sometimes pictures can say more than words
80proximity1
As a minority of one here --not the first time in my experience-- I'll add my view (otherwise, it won't be found here).
I take it from the comments I read--not just here but over and over in many such places-- that, in effect, "multicultural/ "-ism" means a congeries of many different national and cultural origins in some locale--especially the beatific amalgamation of people of diverse origins culturally. (Very few today speak of Syria or Iraq as multicultural societies but, according to the common usage, they are. We could say that, in Syria, in Iraq, we have a multicultural bloodbath. But I've so far not seen it put that way.) Just, that is, the simple and bare fact that these people live in the same metropolitan area. That does not, in my opinion, constitute "multiculture".
People live in _a_ culture--not "among various cultures." To suppose that you live in multiple cultures at once is, in my opinion, to simply misunderstand what culture means
In most large "metropolitan" cities of the world, one finds basically the same "culture" and this is as obvious as are the reasons for it. If you removed the signs in the local language, there are many places around the world which are so similar that you'd be hard-pressed to know exactly where you were--just as, for example, if you were dropped, blindfolded, in the middle of a shopping mall and then asked to remove the blindfold and tell your companion in which city you find yourself, with rare exception, you'd be stumped.
There is, indeed, a monotype commercial culture which is very similar everywhere in the overdeveloped world. Though each of them have their unique distinguishing features--usually architectural in nature and dating from prior centuries--what's most recent in Copenhagen, Amsterdam, London, Toronto, Miami, Sao Paulo, Capetown, Sydney, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Moscow, Jakarta, Houston or Washington are the same chain stores, same chain restaurants and fast-food joints, the fashions in clothes--all made in the latest -cheapest-labor reservations: China, Bangladesh, Guatemala, etc.
Merely aggregating a large and quite variously originated number peoples in one metro area does not give you (other than what passes by the name of) "multicultural" metropolitan living. It gives you, instead, what is basically the _same_ culture whether it's found in Vancouver or Warsaw.
My question wasn't : "Is there _anything_ at all good we can say about such places?" or even "What is good about such places?"
Rather, it was,
" Why is this or why should this be necessarily a good thing?, a point of civic pride in and of itself ?"
For a first answer, I received from Deb a reference1 to Microsoft's choice of Vancouver and was told later that in fact the reference was quoted from the city's mayor and that Microsoft isn't after all that big a deal in Vancouver. Later, again, I was offered one of several press stories2 recounting basically the same homilies about the virtues of multicultural living in metropolitan cities. As usual, these things are repeated and accepted as evidently true without question.
But, asked to explain in one's own words why such arrangements are necessarily a good thing, most people, it seems, follow the same reflex: they look for a press account which summarizes and repeats the received wisdom.
----------------------------
1. Our cultural diversity is a huge economic advantage. You see that when companies like Microsoft establish themselves here due to the diverse and talented work force. We have a huge advantage with our multilingual work force, and the fact that Vancouver is a place where many cultures feel comfortable. Vancouver has always been a really entrepreneurial city - I think the waves of immigrants have helped foster that spirit of entrepreneurialism.↩
2. from the link Sikhs, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians and Jews, for instance, are pleased with the way they provide overflow parking to each other, since their religious services come on different days of the week. They also sometimes share equipment and technical advice, including such issues as sewage upgrades.↩
I take it from the comments I read--not just here but over and over in many such places-- that, in effect, "multicultural/ "-ism" means a congeries of many different national and cultural origins in some locale--especially the beatific amalgamation of people of diverse origins culturally. (Very few today speak of Syria or Iraq as multicultural societies but, according to the common usage, they are. We could say that, in Syria, in Iraq, we have a multicultural bloodbath. But I've so far not seen it put that way.) Just, that is, the simple and bare fact that these people live in the same metropolitan area. That does not, in my opinion, constitute "multiculture".
People live in _a_ culture--not "among various cultures." To suppose that you live in multiple cultures at once is, in my opinion, to simply misunderstand what culture means
In most large "metropolitan" cities of the world, one finds basically the same "culture" and this is as obvious as are the reasons for it. If you removed the signs in the local language, there are many places around the world which are so similar that you'd be hard-pressed to know exactly where you were--just as, for example, if you were dropped, blindfolded, in the middle of a shopping mall and then asked to remove the blindfold and tell your companion in which city you find yourself, with rare exception, you'd be stumped.
There is, indeed, a monotype commercial culture which is very similar everywhere in the overdeveloped world. Though each of them have their unique distinguishing features--usually architectural in nature and dating from prior centuries--what's most recent in Copenhagen, Amsterdam, London, Toronto, Miami, Sao Paulo, Capetown, Sydney, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Moscow, Jakarta, Houston or Washington are the same chain stores, same chain restaurants and fast-food joints, the fashions in clothes--all made in the latest -cheapest-labor reservations: China, Bangladesh, Guatemala, etc.
Merely aggregating a large and quite variously originated number peoples in one metro area does not give you (other than what passes by the name of) "multicultural" metropolitan living. It gives you, instead, what is basically the _same_ culture whether it's found in Vancouver or Warsaw.
My question wasn't : "Is there _anything_ at all good we can say about such places?" or even "What is good about such places?"
Rather, it was,
" Why is this or why should this be necessarily a good thing?, a point of civic pride in and of itself ?"
For a first answer, I received from Deb a reference1 to Microsoft's choice of Vancouver and was told later that in fact the reference was quoted from the city's mayor and that Microsoft isn't after all that big a deal in Vancouver. Later, again, I was offered one of several press stories2 recounting basically the same homilies about the virtues of multicultural living in metropolitan cities. As usual, these things are repeated and accepted as evidently true without question.
But, asked to explain in one's own words why such arrangements are necessarily a good thing, most people, it seems, follow the same reflex: they look for a press account which summarizes and repeats the received wisdom.
----------------------------
1. Our cultural diversity is a huge economic advantage. You see that when companies like Microsoft establish themselves here due to the diverse and talented work force. We have a huge advantage with our multilingual work force, and the fact that Vancouver is a place where many cultures feel comfortable. Vancouver has always been a really entrepreneurial city - I think the waves of immigrants have helped foster that spirit of entrepreneurialism.↩
2. from the link Sikhs, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians and Jews, for instance, are pleased with the way they provide overflow parking to each other, since their religious services come on different days of the week. They also sometimes share equipment and technical advice, including such issues as sewage upgrades.↩
81proximity1
" ' We have had no end of a lesson: it will do us no end of good!' So said Rudyard Kipling of the Boer war, and he might well say the same today. David Cameron’s wild European gamble has failed. He and the British establishment took democracy for granted. They lined up all the toffs and boffins, the chief executives, tycoons and clever-clogs in the (south of the) land, and asked the nation to pat them on the back. The invitation to a punch in the face was too good to miss.
" Now, with blood barely dry on their lips, project fear has mutated into project stupid-idiots. I find it staggering that the remain minority can accuse the Brexit majority of not knowing truth from lies – unlike in all elections? – and could not have meant its vote. It should therefore be asked to vote a second time, and show due respect to its elders and betters. What planet are these people on? I would guess the leavers in a second vote would soar to 60%, out of sheer fury.
" Brexit is starting to deliver. British politics was constipated and has now overdosed on laxative. It is experiencing a great evacuation. It has got rid of a prime minister and is about to get rid of a leader of the opposition.1 It will soon be rid of a chancellor of the exchequer and a lord chancellor. It is also rid of two, if not four, Tory heirs apparent. Across the spectrum the left is on the brink of upheaval and perhaps historic realignment, if only the Liberal Democrats have the guts to engineer it. The Greens and Ukip have both lost their leaders. An entire political class is on the way out. As Oscar Wilde said of the death of Little Nell, it would take a heart of stone not to laugh.
" During the referendum I was persuaded neither by project fear nor by Brexit’s projected sunny uplands. I thought, and still think, time and compromise will eventually stabilise Britain’s relations with the EU as not so different from today. Whether the stabiliser is joining the European Economic Area (within the letter, if not the spirit, of Brexit) or some other arrangement – who knows? I voted remain because I felt Europe’s future to be so precarious as desperately to need Britain’s more forceful presence. I feel that more strongly after the news that the European parliament leader, Martin Schulz, wants to move the EU swiftly to a 'one government' federal constitution. "
••• ••• •••
--------------------
-- full text at Ignore the Prophets of Doom. Brexit will be good for Britain -- by Simon Jenkins, in The Guardian
1. That remains to be seen. Personally, I'll expect it when I've seen it done.↩
83proximity1
>82 John5918:
Not in the least.
P.S. If I had my way the paper would have gone bankrupt well more than five years ago and eveyone on the staff writing for the paper--except Gary Younge and George Monbiot-- or working anywhere in the management /administration, whatever their capacity, would be living unemployed (unable to get any paid writing work) and homeless on the street.
Not in the least.
P.S. If I had my way the paper would have gone bankrupt well more than five years ago and eveyone on the staff writing for the paper--except Gary Younge and George Monbiot-- or working anywhere in the management /administration, whatever their capacity, would be living unemployed (unable to get any paid writing work) and homeless on the street.
84proximity1
Some semi-untutored hunches about the distinction between the concepts "culture" and "ethnicity".
I think many people refer to "culture" and, especially to "multiculturalism," out of confusion. "Ethnicity" is the term for what they're talking about--whether they're aware of it or not.
I suppose there have been multiethnic societies for almost as long as there has existed tribal society, long before recorded history. As soon as tribal groups grew, split and migrated over land, the conditions were in place for people to encounter others with whom they shared no direct living kinship.
This is no mere semantic difference. Cultural versus ethnic refers to distinctions in the practical world of living society even if these terms refer to social phenomena which are subject to social evolution and environmental pressures and thus which can fuse or splinter, become lost within or overpower their neighbors.
Vancouver, like many large modern cities, is a multiethnic metropolis. But it is not "multi"-"cultural." The culture of Vancouver is _today_ multiethnic. It needn't always have been so and it needn't always be so. It's possible that, in the future, Vancouver becomes a mono-ethnic metropolis. If it came to have exclusively or nearly exclusively people of what we today call Chinese heritage, then it would no longer be a multiethnic society.
Whatever are the totality of a locale's collective customs and languages, these, taken together, make an organic "whole"--a feature-filled living social order which, though people as groups can be sorted and divided up as individuals, cannot be "divided" into constituent parts.
If you have an aquarium at home, you have a micro-ecosystem. That's an organic entity, a "whole." If you significantly change it by the introduction of something formerly absent or by the removal of something formerly present, you alter the entire entity, the "whole" ecosystem is different, changed, as a consequence.
Thus, if you have a typical saltwater or freshwater aquarium which is in good viable conditions, and you pour into it a quantity of tomato sauce which doubles its previous volume, the result is not a tomato-sauce flavored aquarium--it's no kind of aquarium. It's something else. Whatever it is, it's no longer an aquarium.
Even though they're not susceptible to hard, fixed and immutable demarcation, ethnicity and culture are similarly whole ecosystem-like organic social entities. They can wax or wane, fuse into a larger (and necessarily different) entity more or less gradually depending on many various factors.
So you might live in a multi-ethnic society or a mono-ethnic society. If you live in any large modern city today, you are practically bound to live in a multiethnic society. That can be a good thing, a bad thing or, more likely, a mixture of the two.
But, just as the possible fact that you have a dog and that your dog might have fleas does not, by that fact, make your dog either multiethnic or multicultural, so, by the same token, putting together a Great Dane, an Irish setter, an English sheepdog, a Scottish terrier, a Russian wolfhound and a German shepherd does not mean you have a multicultural pack of dogs.
85RickHarsch
>83 proximity1: A leftist who wishes homelessness and unemployment on people is difficult for me to trust.
86LolaWalser
Hate crimes surge by 42% in England and Wales since Brexit result
Police have said the number of hate crimes recorded for the last two weeks in June has spiked by 42 per cent on this time last year.
A total of 3,076 incidents were recorded across the country between 16 and 30 June – a dramatic increase on the 915 reports recorded over the same period in 2015.
The biggest number of recorded incidents came on 25 June – the day after the result of the EU referendum – when there were 289 hate crime related incidents.
87madpoet
This is the best article I have seen yet on Brexit:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/opinion/sunday/why-the-eu-had-it-coming.html?a...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/opinion/sunday/why-the-eu-had-it-coming.html?a...
88proximity1
>87 madpoet:
I agree. Thank you for posting the reference. It's an excellent essay and it shall be stubbornly ignored or rejected and denied by the very people who most ought to heed its insights. That is one of the marks of our times.
I agree. Thank you for posting the reference. It's an excellent essay and it shall be stubbornly ignored or rejected and denied by the very people who most ought to heed its insights. That is one of the marks of our times.
89proximity1
>86 LolaWalser:
From July 5th, another Brexit-inspired hate-crime :
" Indigenous woman yells 'I hate white people' before punching white woman, but it's not a hate crime judge rules by KEVIN MARTIN, of The Calgary (Alberta, Canada ) Mail
90John5918
>87 madpoet:
Well, with all due respect, the heart of its argument seems to be that the EU has, er, failings. We all knew that already. Some of us felt they were worth fixing rather than rejecting, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
It also contains the slogan, "We obey the dictates of Brussels ". We don't. We help to shape EU policy made in Brussels and then we follow it, and often we then amend it again.
"And how does the liberal elite on both sides of the Atlantic react to this deafening alarm? They scream foul and blame the dumb British working classes for spoiling the party." Er, no, they don't. But they do question the process of making such a far-reaching, irreversible and divisive decision on a simple majority (which turned out to be a very narrow one), thus opening up a conversation on different forms of democracy.
Well, with all due respect, the heart of its argument seems to be that the EU has, er, failings. We all knew that already. Some of us felt they were worth fixing rather than rejecting, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
It also contains the slogan, "We obey the dictates of Brussels ". We don't. We help to shape EU policy made in Brussels and then we follow it, and often we then amend it again.
"And how does the liberal elite on both sides of the Atlantic react to this deafening alarm? They scream foul and blame the dumb British working classes for spoiling the party." Er, no, they don't. But they do question the process of making such a far-reaching, irreversible and divisive decision on a simple majority (which turned out to be a very narrow one), thus opening up a conversation on different forms of democracy.
91proximity1
The New Statesman
June 24, 2016
by Jonn Elledge
"18 People to blame for 'Brexit' "
# 12 Old people:
..." let's not let the real demographic villains off the hook here..."
"Blame-o-meter Rating : 8/10
# 13 "The voters who voted Leave because they didn't think Leave would win."
search-string= "blame" + "for" + "Brexit"
June 24, 2016
by Jonn Elledge
"18 People to blame for 'Brexit' "
# 12 Old people:
..." let's not let the real demographic villains off the hook here..."
"Blame-o-meter Rating : 8/10
# 13 "The voters who voted Leave because they didn't think Leave would win."
search-string= "blame" + "for" + "Brexit"
92LolaWalser
Racism unleashed: True extent of the 'explosion of blatant hate' that followed Brexit result revealed
What the social media sites in their own report describe as an “explosion of blatant hate” has included:
* Gangs prowling the streets demanding passers-by prove they can speak English
* Swastikas in Armagh, Sheffield, Plymouth, Leicester, London and Glasgow.
* Assaults, arson attacks and dog excrement being thrown at doors or shoved through letter boxes.
* Toddlers being racially abused alongside their mothers, with children involved as either victims or perpetrators in 14 per cent of incidents.
* A man in Glasgow ripping off a girl’s headscarf and telling her “Trash like you better start obeying the white man."
* Comparisons with 1930s Nazi Germany and a crowd striding through a London street chanting: “First we’ll get the Poles out, then the gays!” (...)
The involvement of children as victims and perpetrators was described by the authors of Post-referendum racism and xenophobia as “one of the most alarming and least expected trends”.
A two and a half-year-old Polish girl walking with her mother through a park in Croydon, south London, was told by a 60-something grandfather: “We voted to leave so why the f*** don't you go home? None of us want you here.”
In Taunton Deane, Somerset, a 10-year-old told their German teacher: “I’m not doing what a bloody foreigner tells me to.”
Nor was the racism restricted to people who could be categorised as frustrated and socially excluded.
In an expensive restaurant in Mayfair, London, on the day the referendum result was announced, a party of celebrating Brexiteers refused to be served by an Italian and demanded an English waiter.
An online booking for another top London restaurant included the demand: “I want British waiter please (sic). Don’t send any Europeans to my table.”
93proximity1
>92 LolaWalser:
“I want British waiter please (sic). Don’t send any Europeans to my (London) table.”
Lol! Good luck with that. And, in Paris, if it bothers you that the people behind the counter in the café are Chinese--I don't mean merely of Asian parentage, I mean Chinese immigrants --then your choice of café just shrank to something around one in fifty.
In a different vein, years ago I volunteered on a French presidential campaign where I spent all day every day taking phone calls from the general public and noting their queries and directing the messages (and, in rare cases, the callers), to other people in the campaign. A dozen or so times a caller asked to speak with someone else who was a native-Frenchman. Those people always amused me greatly. We had one other person in the campaign volunteers who was a native English-speaker.
-----
"If it ain't broke, 'Brexit.'"
“I want British waiter please (sic). Don’t send any Europeans to my (London) table.”
Lol! Good luck with that. And, in Paris, if it bothers you that the people behind the counter in the café are Chinese--I don't mean merely of Asian parentage, I mean Chinese immigrants --then your choice of café just shrank to something around one in fifty.
In a different vein, years ago I volunteered on a French presidential campaign where I spent all day every day taking phone calls from the general public and noting their queries and directing the messages (and, in rare cases, the callers), to other people in the campaign. A dozen or so times a caller asked to speak with someone else who was a native-Frenchman. Those people always amused me greatly. We had one other person in the campaign volunteers who was a native English-speaker.
-----
"If it ain't broke, 'Brexit.'"
94John5918
>92 LolaWalser: why the f*** don't you go home? None of us want you here
On another thread, I posted a quote from British comedian Nish Kumar:
I come from Croydon, so telling me to go home really is incredibly cruel.
His Guardian article, No one told me to ‘go home’ for 16 years. Then we voted for Brexit, addresses "racism unleashed" following the Brexit vote.
Along the same lines, there's a beautiful sketch somewhere on YouTube (which of course I can't find now I want it) by another British comedian, Imran Yusuf, where he says something like, "People keep telling me to go back to where I came from. I say no, because I don't like Birmingham".
On another thread, I posted a quote from British comedian Nish Kumar:
I come from Croydon, so telling me to go home really is incredibly cruel.
His Guardian article, No one told me to ‘go home’ for 16 years. Then we voted for Brexit, addresses "racism unleashed" following the Brexit vote.
Along the same lines, there's a beautiful sketch somewhere on YouTube (which of course I can't find now I want it) by another British comedian, Imran Yusuf, where he says something like, "People keep telling me to go back to where I came from. I say no, because I don't like Birmingham".
95justifiedsinner
>94 John5918: As an Englishman I've got that in the States, always from white people of course. I always reply "Why don't you kimosabe"?
96proximity1
You know something? One can carry this sensitivity stuff very, very far. One can make a regular obsession of it. Obsessions are illnesses.
I'm sorry to tell you this but there have always been such people--those who will comment to strangers in the ways just described in comments above.
If you're or someone you know is assaulted or threatened and you believe the threat is serious, then report it to the police. Take a photo with your phone for evidence.
But if it's nothing other than, "go back where you came from," then try to ignore and forget it. No matter what you or any or all of us may do, no matter how much we might like it if there were no such people, there are and there always shall be such people. They're part of life.
FFS! I'm a white male from a middle-class family--born in England but the family are American and so is my accent. I've been told --while working in London--to bugger off back to America by one with a very British accent. (The real source and motive of his comment was something entirely unrelated to xenophobic nationalist feelings. He had an ordinary gripe and simply chose to vent his anger that way rather than another since it was so simple and obvious.) Of course it bothered me then. There. Do you feel better? Even white males from very good homes can find themselves told by a native Briton to go take a hike out of the country.
But today if it happened I'd just laugh it off.
This accountancy toting up and meticulously cataloging each and every such incident is done by political activists with no end of axe-grinding to do. It becomes eventually very tiresome to have these things detailed over and over.
Some people have far too much time on their hands and far too little to fill it with.
I'm sorry to tell you this but there have always been such people--those who will comment to strangers in the ways just described in comments above.
If you're or someone you know is assaulted or threatened and you believe the threat is serious, then report it to the police. Take a photo with your phone for evidence.
But if it's nothing other than, "go back where you came from," then try to ignore and forget it. No matter what you or any or all of us may do, no matter how much we might like it if there were no such people, there are and there always shall be such people. They're part of life.
FFS! I'm a white male from a middle-class family--born in England but the family are American and so is my accent. I've been told --while working in London--to bugger off back to America by one with a very British accent. (The real source and motive of his comment was something entirely unrelated to xenophobic nationalist feelings. He had an ordinary gripe and simply chose to vent his anger that way rather than another since it was so simple and obvious.) Of course it bothered me then. There. Do you feel better? Even white males from very good homes can find themselves told by a native Briton to go take a hike out of the country.
But today if it happened I'd just laugh it off.
This accountancy toting up and meticulously cataloging each and every such incident is done by political activists with no end of axe-grinding to do. It becomes eventually very tiresome to have these things detailed over and over.
Some people have far too much time on their hands and far too little to fill it with.
97RickHarsch
>96 proximity1: I believe the suggestion is that Brexit unleashed or paved the way for more xenophobia and racism, that they have increased. Your post seems to have missed this point entirely.
Aside from that, I believe it takes astonishing arrogance to tell people what they should be sensitive about.
Aside from that, I believe it takes astonishing arrogance to tell people what they should be sensitive about.
98John5918
>96 proximity1:
I think there's quite a difference between being insulted occasionally, for whatever reason, and being part of a group for whom being insulted is only one facet of being routinely and institutionally marginalised and/or discriminated against and/or oppressed and/or disadvantaged and/or physically assaulted etc simply by virtue of belonging (or being perceived as belonging) to that group.
I think there's quite a difference between being insulted occasionally, for whatever reason, and being part of a group for whom being insulted is only one facet of being routinely and institutionally marginalised and/or discriminated against and/or oppressed and/or disadvantaged and/or physically assaulted etc simply by virtue of belonging (or being perceived as belonging) to that group.
99librorumamans
>96 proximity1: It was hardly necessary — was, indeed, entirely superfluous — to tell us that you are a white male.
100LolaWalser
>94 John5918:
One can only hope toddlers too will get a sense of humour ASAP.
The parts of the article I didn't quote are at least as disturbing as the litany of attacks. The cynical engineering and manipulation of xenophobia and racism by the Tories--this being the result, terrorised children. Their campaign was a crime against humanity.
Never again will I be able to dismiss lightly those common, too common British "ticks" and "hangups" about "damn foreigners" that pepper their supposedly great literature. Chuckle benevolently about British "eccentricity" and "insularity". Never again.
One can only hope toddlers too will get a sense of humour ASAP.
The parts of the article I didn't quote are at least as disturbing as the litany of attacks. The cynical engineering and manipulation of xenophobia and racism by the Tories--this being the result, terrorised children. Their campaign was a crime against humanity.
Never again will I be able to dismiss lightly those common, too common British "ticks" and "hangups" about "damn foreigners" that pepper their supposedly great literature. Chuckle benevolently about British "eccentricity" and "insularity". Never again.
101proximity1
>97 RickHarsch:
... " it takes astonishing arrogance to tell people what they should be sensitive about."
Fucking EXACTLY!!!
And so you'd never be accused of doing that!, now, right?!
... " it takes astonishing arrogance to tell people what they should be sensitive about."
Fucking EXACTLY!!!
And so you'd never be accused of doing that!, now, right?!
102proximity1
>99 librorumamans:
{flush}
Thank you for your snide, unsolicited and entirely superfluous editorial advice.
"Please, don't call us, we'll call you when we require more of same."
103Jesse_wiedinmyer
Proximty1's a white male?
104RickHarsch
>101 proximity1: Right. Exactly. Not when someone fitting the conditions of #98--and the children of >100 LolaWalser:--are involved. Of course I wouldn't.
>102 proximity1: The fact that >99 librorumamans: was unsolicited is rather superfluous.
>103 Jesse_wiedinmyer: Still guessing.
>102 proximity1: The fact that >99 librorumamans: was unsolicited is rather superfluous.
>103 Jesse_wiedinmyer: Still guessing.
105John5918
Why Africa should be at the heart of the UK’s Brexit strategy (African Arguments)
109theoria
I see Mr Trump has imported Nigel Farage to help make America great again. What could go wrong?
110krolik
>109 theoria:
Earlier in the summer there was a joke circulating about that. Now it's actually come true. The needle on my stupidometer broke a long time ago.
Here's an interesting piece by Zadie Smith about Brexit in NYRP--free link here:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/08/18/fences-brexit-diary/
Earlier in the summer there was a joke circulating about that. Now it's actually come true. The needle on my stupidometer broke a long time ago.
Here's an interesting piece by Zadie Smith about Brexit in NYRP--free link here:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/08/18/fences-brexit-diary/
111theoria
>110 krolik: Thanks for the link. As for Trump and Farage in Mississippi: comedy gold.
112John5918
>111 theoria:
Well, in the UK it was comedy gold until Farage and his ilk won. Let's hope that it will not be the same in the USA.
Well, in the UK it was comedy gold until Farage and his ilk won. Let's hope that it will not be the same in the USA.
113proximity1
Diversity: History's Pathway to Chaos
By Victor Davis Hanson
| August 26, 2016
------------
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. His latest book is The Savior Generals: How Five Great Commanders Saved Wars That Were Lost from BloomsburyBooks.
By Victor Davis Hanson
| August 26, 2016
------------
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. His latest book is The Savior Generals: How Five Great Commanders Saved Wars That Were Lost from BloomsburyBooks.
114theoria
>112 John5918: Fortunately, the US Presidential election is not conducted like a referendum.
115LolaWalser
Meet the Swedish politician ready to play hardball with the UK on Brexit
Karlsson thinks his compatriot will be clearly focused on European interest when it comes to Brexit. “I think she will be a very hard negotiator in that we did not create this problem, this was a problem created by Britain.”
Reflecting a fairly widespread view among pro-European Swedes and beyond, he said: “Britain can only get a bad deal, a very bad deal, or a catastrophic deal."
116John5918
UK must pay for Brexit or EU is in 'deep trouble', says German minister (Guardian)
Economy minister Sigmar Gabriel warns UK must take responsibility for vote that has left Europe as an ‘unstable continent’
Economy minister Sigmar Gabriel warns UK must take responsibility for vote that has left Europe as an ‘unstable continent’
119John5918
Brexit’s slow-burning fuse will reach a powder keg this year (Guardian)
I'm struck by the following quote:
I'm struck by the following quote:
It would be good if the majority of members of parliament could recall and act upon Edmund Burke’s 1774 address to the electors of Bristol: they should summon up the courage to act as representatives, not delegates of constituencies
120Carnophile
And the attempt to scuttle Brexit FAILS by a vote of ~500 to 115.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4179940/The-Government-s-Brexit-plan-pub...
How many orgasms can a person have in a 12-day period?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4179940/The-Government-s-Brexit-plan-pub...
How many orgasms can a person have in a 12-day period?
121John5918
>120 Carnophile:
It wasn't an attempt to scuttle Brexit. It was merely an attempt to ensure that due process was maintained, and that the nation and its parliament should be properly informed by its government about its strategy for Brexit, so that they can all be involved in discussing what sort of Brexit deal Britain is negotiating for. If you recall, the referendum did not include any of those details.
It wasn't an attempt to scuttle Brexit. It was merely an attempt to ensure that due process was maintained, and that the nation and its parliament should be properly informed by its government about its strategy for Brexit, so that they can all be involved in discussing what sort of Brexit deal Britain is negotiating for. If you recall, the referendum did not include any of those details.
124John5918
>123 Carnophile:
For me it would be more helpful if you could engage with the issue rather than just making a strange noise.
For me it would be more helpful if you could engage with the issue rather than just making a strange noise.
126librorumamans
>125 John5918: The article has restricted access, so I haven't read it. But my reaction to the headline is that "become" should read "joined" — Russia (at least) is a charter member of the current iteration of that club.
128John5918
>126 librorumamans:
Sorry, yes, you need to register to read their "premium" content, but it is free registration.
I particularly liked the headline, but I have no problem with the word "joined". I think the intention was to suggest that previously the UK and USA were not members of said club which they now seem so happy to join.
Sorry, yes, you need to register to read their "premium" content, but it is free registration.
I particularly liked the headline, but I have no problem with the word "joined". I think the intention was to suggest that previously the UK and USA were not members of said club which they now seem so happy to join.
129Carnophile
>124 John5918: For me it would be more helpful if you could engage with the issue rather than just making a strange noise.
Don't talk tripe, and I might pretend to take your posts seriously.
Don't talk tripe, and I might pretend to take your posts seriously.
130John5918
>129 Carnophile:
Well, once again I would simply ask you to engage with the topic. My >121 John5918: responded to the substance of your >120 Carnophile:. Your >123 Carnophile: and >129 Carnophile: do not add anything to the conversation.
Well, once again I would simply ask you to engage with the topic. My >121 John5918: responded to the substance of your >120 Carnophile:. Your >123 Carnophile: and >129 Carnophile: do not add anything to the conversation.
132Carnophile
>130 John5918: Don't brazenly assert obvious falsehoods, and I might pretend to take your posts seriously.*
--------------------------------------------------
*Results not guaranteed.
--------------------------------------------------
*Results not guaranteed.
133John5918
>132 Carnophile:
I should be grateful if you could point out what you consider to be falsehoods and then we could have a civilised conversation about them.
I should be grateful if you could point out what you consider to be falsehoods and then we could have a civilised conversation about them.
134Carnophile
>133 John5918: I see that you're pretending you can't read post 123. (Pats John on the head.) Yes, John, you're very clever.
135John5918
>134 Carnophile:
No, I read >123 Carnophile: and I'm simply asking you to engage with the conversation and explain what/why you think are falsehoods. If alleged falsehoods (cf >132 Carnophile:) are named, then evidence can be considered and we can maybe move forward with the conversation.
No, I read >123 Carnophile: and I'm simply asking you to engage with the conversation and explain what/why you think are falsehoods. If alleged falsehoods (cf >132 Carnophile:) are named, then evidence can be considered and we can maybe move forward with the conversation.
136Carnophile
>135 John5918: Well, all your dissembling has been, er, fun, but I'm bored now.
The attempt to scuttle Brexit FAILED! And it FAILED big-time! Brexit there shall be!
The attempt to scuttle Brexit FAILED! And it FAILED big-time! Brexit there shall be!
137John5918
>136 Carnophile: Brexit there shall be!
Indeed there shall, because most of the MPs who oppose Brexit voted in favour of it, as they said they would. I'm still asking you to explain why you think the vote in parliament in UK was an attempt to scuttle Brexit.
Indeed there shall, because most of the MPs who oppose Brexit voted in favour of it, as they said they would. I'm still asking you to explain why you think the vote in parliament in UK was an attempt to scuttle Brexit.
138Carnophile
As you know quite well, the parliament vote was required by the attempt to scuttle Brexit, which really got going when that asshole started a court case arguing that an act of parliament was required.
I know you know this, John. Your continued dissembling is transparent.
I know you know this, John. Your continued dissembling is transparent.
139Carnophile
Yawn, OK, I've extracted as much schadenfreude a I can for the moment, from the bad guys' TOTAL FAILURE!!! to scuttle Brexit, which now bears down upon them inexorably!
Further disengenuous attempts to confuse the issue will be ignored.
...and further attempts to confuse the issue...
WON'T STOP BREXIT!!!
Further disengenuous attempts to confuse the issue will be ignored.
...and further attempts to confuse the issue...
WON'T STOP BREXIT!!!
140John5918
>138 Carnophile: As you know quite well, the parliament vote was required by the attempt to scuttle Brexit
Read the statements by the plaintiffs who brought the case. Read the arguments which their lawyers made in court. Read the opinions of the judges. The record shows that it was about clarifying the legal process required in order for Brexit to take place, not about whether or not Brexit should take place. To draw a parallel with recent events in the USA, you may receive a popular vote to do something but the way you do it has to be consistent with established legal and constitutional processes.
Then look at what actually happened in parliament. The government voted in favour of Brexit, even though many Tory MPs were personally against it, but please note that so did the official opposition, with a three line whip. I happened to see on TV the opening speech by whichever Labour luminary is leading their Brexit process, and he stated very clearly that he is personally against Brexit, but he was voting in favour of it because that was what his constituents had voted for. He urged his Labour colleagues to do the same, and the vast majority of them did. The only significant opposition was from the SNP, who were representing the overwhelming anti-Brexit feeling of their Scottish constituents, and the Lib-Dems, who have always been passionately and transparently pro-Europe. So there was no attempt to scuttle Brexit in parliament - despite the overwhelming anti-Brexit sentiment of the majority of MPs, they voted for Brexit out of respect for the views expressed by their constituents in the referendum, and as we always knew they would.
Then look at what MPs were actually asking for. They were not asking for Brexit to be scuttled. They were asking for more clarity about the process and for parliamentary oversight of the terms and conditions of Brexit. Note that the referendum said nothing about the negotiating process, the terms and conditions, nor about the final Brexit deal. The fact that the representatives of the people are involved in these details is far from an attempt to scuttle Brexit.
So, leaving aside the slogans and hyperbole ("that asshole", "the bad guys", "TOTAL FAILURE!!! to scuttle Brexit", "further attempts to confuse the issue... WON'T STOP BREXIT!!!") which characterise the gutter press in the UK, there is little if any evidence that the court case and the subsequent parliamentary debate were an attempt to "scuttle" Brexit. I suspect the position taken by the majority of MPs, ie that personally they are anti-Brexit but that Brexit is going to go ahead because just over 50% of the populace voted for it, is now widely accepted by the just under 50% of the populace who voted against it, and the emphasis now is definitely not on trying to reverse ("scuttle") Brexit, but rather that there should be a smooth and transparent process which gets the best possible Brexit deal for the UK. In other words, nobody is trying to "scuttle" Brexit, so it's difficult to argue that they have FAILED to do something when they're not even trying to do it.
Read the statements by the plaintiffs who brought the case. Read the arguments which their lawyers made in court. Read the opinions of the judges. The record shows that it was about clarifying the legal process required in order for Brexit to take place, not about whether or not Brexit should take place. To draw a parallel with recent events in the USA, you may receive a popular vote to do something but the way you do it has to be consistent with established legal and constitutional processes.
Then look at what actually happened in parliament. The government voted in favour of Brexit, even though many Tory MPs were personally against it, but please note that so did the official opposition, with a three line whip. I happened to see on TV the opening speech by whichever Labour luminary is leading their Brexit process, and he stated very clearly that he is personally against Brexit, but he was voting in favour of it because that was what his constituents had voted for. He urged his Labour colleagues to do the same, and the vast majority of them did. The only significant opposition was from the SNP, who were representing the overwhelming anti-Brexit feeling of their Scottish constituents, and the Lib-Dems, who have always been passionately and transparently pro-Europe. So there was no attempt to scuttle Brexit in parliament - despite the overwhelming anti-Brexit sentiment of the majority of MPs, they voted for Brexit out of respect for the views expressed by their constituents in the referendum, and as we always knew they would.
Then look at what MPs were actually asking for. They were not asking for Brexit to be scuttled. They were asking for more clarity about the process and for parliamentary oversight of the terms and conditions of Brexit. Note that the referendum said nothing about the negotiating process, the terms and conditions, nor about the final Brexit deal. The fact that the representatives of the people are involved in these details is far from an attempt to scuttle Brexit.
So, leaving aside the slogans and hyperbole ("that asshole", "the bad guys", "TOTAL FAILURE!!! to scuttle Brexit", "further attempts to confuse the issue... WON'T STOP BREXIT!!!") which characterise the gutter press in the UK, there is little if any evidence that the court case and the subsequent parliamentary debate were an attempt to "scuttle" Brexit. I suspect the position taken by the majority of MPs, ie that personally they are anti-Brexit but that Brexit is going to go ahead because just over 50% of the populace voted for it, is now widely accepted by the just under 50% of the populace who voted against it, and the emphasis now is definitely not on trying to reverse ("scuttle") Brexit, but rather that there should be a smooth and transparent process which gets the best possible Brexit deal for the UK. In other words, nobody is trying to "scuttle" Brexit, so it's difficult to argue that they have FAILED to do something when they're not even trying to do it.
141margd
Sounds like a critical moment for the UK. Isn't another alternative to schedule another referendum*? (Hopefully not rigged.) To verify that the people still want Brexit?
Official Government statement from Chequers
July 6, 2018
(2 p summary, white paper to follow on UK's negotiating position)
https://brexitcentral.com/official-government-statement-chequers/
____________________________________________________
The politics of Brexit have caught up with hard reality
Chequers (above) and its aftermath show it is time to end plays to the domestic audience
David Allen Green | July 9, 2018
...For two years there have been two separate and distinct Brexit processes. The first is the domestic negotiations between Theresa May and the prime minister’s political supporters in government, parliament and the media. The second is the negotiations between Britain and the EU within the framework provided by Article 50.
...But at some point there had to be a reckoning.
...The white paper will be crucial. It needs to be endorsed at home and credible for the EU27 — and neither can be taken for granted.
...The alternatives are no Brexit, a delayed Brexit or no deal (for which the UK has made no real preparation)...
https://www.ft.com/
ETA__________________________________________________
*Can the UK Rescind Its Withdrawal from the EU?
Paul Rosenzweig | July 11, 2018, 8:07 AM
...it's unclear...
https://www.lawfareblog.com/can-uk-rescind-its-withdrawal-eu
Official Government statement from Chequers
July 6, 2018
(2 p summary, white paper to follow on UK's negotiating position)
https://brexitcentral.com/official-government-statement-chequers/
____________________________________________________
The politics of Brexit have caught up with hard reality
Chequers (above) and its aftermath show it is time to end plays to the domestic audience
David Allen Green | July 9, 2018
...For two years there have been two separate and distinct Brexit processes. The first is the domestic negotiations between Theresa May and the prime minister’s political supporters in government, parliament and the media. The second is the negotiations between Britain and the EU within the framework provided by Article 50.
...But at some point there had to be a reckoning.
...The white paper will be crucial. It needs to be endorsed at home and credible for the EU27 — and neither can be taken for granted.
...The alternatives are no Brexit, a delayed Brexit or no deal (for which the UK has made no real preparation)...
https://www.ft.com/
ETA__________________________________________________
*Can the UK Rescind Its Withdrawal from the EU?
Paul Rosenzweig | July 11, 2018, 8:07 AM
...it's unclear...
https://www.lawfareblog.com/can-uk-rescind-its-withdrawal-eu
142margd
Usually visiting leaders murmur niceties, put best possible face in public utterances, don't interfere in internal politics, but not our boor.
Putin must be smiling.
TRUMP'S BREXIT BLAST I told May how to do Brexit but she wrecked it — the US trade deal is off, says Donald Trump
Tom Newton Dunn | 12th July 2018, 10:59 pm Updated: 13th July 2018, 8:18 am
In a world exclusive interview with The Sun, the US President said Theresa May had ignored his advice by opting for a soft Brexit strategy
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6766531/trump-may-brexit-us-deal-off/
ETA______________________________________________________
Trump threw NATO into chaos. The U.S.-British ‘special relationship’ is next.
Brian Klaas | July 12, 2018
...The national interests of the United States and Britain are both extremely well served by a close partnership stretching across the Atlantic. Yet the current occupant of the White House only recognizes transactional, short-term self-interest, not enduring long-term national interest. Thankfully, the United States and Trump are not one and the same. Britain would be wise to keep that in mind — as the president of the United States throws his latest diplomatic tantrum with Britain while a diapered balloon baby floats high above in the London sky.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2018/07/12/trump-threw-nat...
Putin must be smiling.
TRUMP'S BREXIT BLAST I told May how to do Brexit but she wrecked it — the US trade deal is off, says Donald Trump
Tom Newton Dunn | 12th July 2018, 10:59 pm Updated: 13th July 2018, 8:18 am
In a world exclusive interview with The Sun, the US President said Theresa May had ignored his advice by opting for a soft Brexit strategy
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6766531/trump-may-brexit-us-deal-off/
ETA______________________________________________________
Trump threw NATO into chaos. The U.S.-British ‘special relationship’ is next.
Brian Klaas | July 12, 2018
...The national interests of the United States and Britain are both extremely well served by a close partnership stretching across the Atlantic. Yet the current occupant of the White House only recognizes transactional, short-term self-interest, not enduring long-term national interest. Thankfully, the United States and Trump are not one and the same. Britain would be wise to keep that in mind — as the president of the United States throws his latest diplomatic tantrum with Britain while a diapered balloon baby floats high above in the London sky.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2018/07/12/trump-threw-nat...
144margd
British PM Theresa May says Trump advised her to sue the EU
Sheena McKenzie | July 15, 2018
(CNN)UK Prime Minister Theresa May says President Donald Trump advised her to sue the European Union -- rather than go into negotiations with them.
..."He told me I should sue the EU -- not go into negotiations, sue them. Actually, no, we're going into negotiations with them. But interestingly what the President also said at that press conference was don't walk away -- don't walk away from negotiations, because then you're stuck."
The US President said Friday during a joint news conference with May that he had given the Prime Minister a suggestion that she had found too "brutal."
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/15/politics/theresa-may-trump-sue-eu-intl/index.html
Sheena McKenzie | July 15, 2018
(CNN)UK Prime Minister Theresa May says President Donald Trump advised her to sue the European Union -- rather than go into negotiations with them.
..."He told me I should sue the EU -- not go into negotiations, sue them. Actually, no, we're going into negotiations with them. But interestingly what the President also said at that press conference was don't walk away -- don't walk away from negotiations, because then you're stuck."
The US President said Friday during a joint news conference with May that he had given the Prime Minister a suggestion that she had found too "brutal."
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/15/politics/theresa-may-trump-sue-eu-intl/index.html
145John5918
John Major weighs in:
I have made no false promises on Brexit – I’m free to tell you the truth (Guardian)
Those who persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer will never be forgiven...
I have made no false promises on Brexit – I’m free to tell you the truth (Guardian)
Those who persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer will never be forgiven...
146margd
Hundreds of thousands march in London demanding vote on Brexit terms
Thomson Reuters | Oct 20, 2018
Organizers say 670,000 people rallied in U.K. capital; pro-Brexit campaigner calls demonstrators 'losers'
...Britain's 2016 referendum saw 52 per cent vote in favour of leaving the European Union. But the past two years have been politically fraught as the government has struggled to agree on a plan and there are fears that Britain could leave the bloc without a deal.
Some opinion polls have shown a slight shift in favour of remaining in the European Union, but there has yet to be a decisive change in attitudes and many in Britain say they have become increasingly bored by Brexit.
The prime minister has repeatedly ruled out holding a second referendum. The opposition Labour party's Brexit spokesman said last month his party open to a second referendum with the option of staying in the bloc in certain circumstances.
...In Belfast in Northern Ireland, around 2,000 people gathered on Saturday to oppose Brexit...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/brexit-uk-eu-march-london-1.4871603
________________________________________________________________________
Only when MPs stare into the abyss will they agree to a People’s Vote
Andrew Rawnsley | Oct 21, 2018
...To secure another referendum, a lot of things have to happen in the right order. To be more accurate, a lot of wrong things have to happen in the right order. One of those things is total parliamentary stalemate. The likeliest path to another referendum is parliament throwing out Mrs May’s deal and also rejecting a no-deal. In other words, the situation will have to become even more deadlocked than it is now before we get to the point where a majority of parliamentarians might feel forced to return the question to the people.
We may not reach that moment until it is perilously late in the day. Some of the prime minister’s cabinet colleagues suspect that she will delay the crunch votes in the Commons until the very last moment, in the hope of bouncing MPs into swallowing whatever deal, however awful, she presents them with. Other ministers think that she hasn’t got a plan anything like that cunning, but they might well end up there by hideous accident. We may have to get terribly close to the edge of the precipice before parliament will feel so desperate that it is compelled to sanction another referendum. This will be a nightmare for anyone trying to run a public service or manage a business – or even simply plan a holiday in Europe. It will mean considerable agony and danger for Britain.
Only when they are staring into the very depths of the abyss are a critical mass of MPs likely to conclude that they have no other choice but to go back to the people for the final say. It will get darker before it can become lighter.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/21/only-when-mps-stare-into-t...
Thomson Reuters | Oct 20, 2018
Organizers say 670,000 people rallied in U.K. capital; pro-Brexit campaigner calls demonstrators 'losers'
...Britain's 2016 referendum saw 52 per cent vote in favour of leaving the European Union. But the past two years have been politically fraught as the government has struggled to agree on a plan and there are fears that Britain could leave the bloc without a deal.
Some opinion polls have shown a slight shift in favour of remaining in the European Union, but there has yet to be a decisive change in attitudes and many in Britain say they have become increasingly bored by Brexit.
The prime minister has repeatedly ruled out holding a second referendum. The opposition Labour party's Brexit spokesman said last month his party open to a second referendum with the option of staying in the bloc in certain circumstances.
...In Belfast in Northern Ireland, around 2,000 people gathered on Saturday to oppose Brexit...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/brexit-uk-eu-march-london-1.4871603
________________________________________________________________________
Only when MPs stare into the abyss will they agree to a People’s Vote
Andrew Rawnsley | Oct 21, 2018
...To secure another referendum, a lot of things have to happen in the right order. To be more accurate, a lot of wrong things have to happen in the right order. One of those things is total parliamentary stalemate. The likeliest path to another referendum is parliament throwing out Mrs May’s deal and also rejecting a no-deal. In other words, the situation will have to become even more deadlocked than it is now before we get to the point where a majority of parliamentarians might feel forced to return the question to the people.
We may not reach that moment until it is perilously late in the day. Some of the prime minister’s cabinet colleagues suspect that she will delay the crunch votes in the Commons until the very last moment, in the hope of bouncing MPs into swallowing whatever deal, however awful, she presents them with. Other ministers think that she hasn’t got a plan anything like that cunning, but they might well end up there by hideous accident. We may have to get terribly close to the edge of the precipice before parliament will feel so desperate that it is compelled to sanction another referendum. This will be a nightmare for anyone trying to run a public service or manage a business – or even simply plan a holiday in Europe. It will mean considerable agony and danger for Britain.
Only when they are staring into the very depths of the abyss are a critical mass of MPs likely to conclude that they have no other choice but to go back to the people for the final say. It will get darker before it can become lighter.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/21/only-when-mps-stare-into-t...
147lriley
At this point they should have another referendum on Brexit. It's quite obvious that the bulk of the population wants a do over--that there's a lot of buyer's remorse from many of those who supported it. A govt. is supposed to work for its people--not to punish them for mistaken notions they may have had and govt.'s make mistakes all the time and quite often to the profit of themselves or the wealthiest parasites--they don't face punishment. There is also the fact that those charged with separating the country from the EU do not know what they're doing--have not come up with a conceivable plan of how to achieve separation. It's a cluster fuck all the way around and IMO they should bury it.
148bnielsen
I'm not sure that a new referendum would have another result. I'm Danish and we have voted "wrong" a couple of times. I.e. on joining the euro and the "experts" claimed that it would be the ruin of all if we voted no. My own opinion was that my historic expenses was about 10 euros a year in extra fees and I didn't think it would ruin me to continue that kind of spending :-)
So maybe brexit will be the ruin of Britain and maybe not.
So maybe brexit will be the ruin of Britain and maybe not.
149John5918
The Guardian view on the Daily Mail and Brexit: a very public shift (Guardian)
A new editor has abandoned the aggressive tone with which the Mail campaigned for Brexit. This reflects a change in the public mood...
Fanatics are often the last to see that their dreams have turned to nightmares. But the British public, who are not fanatics, get it. So, belatedly, does a Mail that drove so hard to the cliff edge. The message has yet to reach many Tories. But they risk being swept aside if it doesn’t. The hard Brexiters are on the run.
A new editor has abandoned the aggressive tone with which the Mail campaigned for Brexit. This reflects a change in the public mood...
Fanatics are often the last to see that their dreams have turned to nightmares. But the British public, who are not fanatics, get it. So, belatedly, does a Mail that drove so hard to the cliff edge. The message has yet to reach many Tories. But they risk being swept aside if it doesn’t. The hard Brexiters are on the run.
1502wonderY
The Man Who Bankrolled Brexit, Arron Banks, Under Criminal Investigation
Britain's election watchdog says there are “reasonable grounds” to suspect that Banks committed several crimes in the run-up to the dramatic vote, and that they suspect he wasn't the true source of £8 million ($10 million) in loans made to Better For The Country—a company he used to finance the Leave.EU campaign group whose public face was Nigel Farage.
…
The Labour party's Ian Murray, a pro-EU member of parliament, told The Daily Beast the fresh allegations cast doubt on the result of the referendum and help make the case for a second vote—but time is running out before Britain's scheduled exit from the EU in March next year.
Britain's election watchdog says there are “reasonable grounds” to suspect that Banks committed several crimes in the run-up to the dramatic vote, and that they suspect he wasn't the true source of £8 million ($10 million) in loans made to Better For The Country—a company he used to finance the Leave.EU campaign group whose public face was Nigel Farage.
…
The Labour party's Ian Murray, a pro-EU member of parliament, told The Daily Beast the fresh allegations cast doubt on the result of the referendum and help make the case for a second vote—but time is running out before Britain's scheduled exit from the EU in March next year.
This topic was continued by Brexit? Part 3.



