TalkImpeachment, Indictment, 25th Amendment 2

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1margd
Oct 2, 2019, 9:01am

Article cited by 2wonderY in previous thread stated:
"The State Department inspector general's office operates usually operates independently of its political appointees."

Plot thickens? clears?

--------------------------------------------------​

#155 2wonderY Today, 8:29am Top
The suspense!

last evening:

The State Department watchdog just requested an 'urgent' meeting with congressional committees
https://www.businessinsider.com/state-department-inspector-general-mike-pompeo-c...

The State Department's internal watchdog requested a Wednesday briefing with a bipartisan group of committees in both the House and the Senate. The purpose is "to discuss and provide staff with copies of documents related to the State Department and Ukraine."

The State Department Inspector General Steve Linick invited Democratic and Republican congressional committee staffers to inform them about documents on Ukraine it had obtained from the department's Office of the Legal Adviser.

2Molly3028
Oct 2, 2019, 9:06am

If FOX News had existed during the Nixon era, Trickie Dickie would have finished his second term.

3margd
Edited: Oct 2, 2019, 9:17am

Well there you go: Putin says nothing compromising in Trump's telephone call to Zelinsky.

'Nothing compromising' in Trump call to Ukraine's Zelensky: Putin
Af (AFP?) | October 2, 2019

MOSCOW: Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday defended Donald Trump over accusations the US leader pressured Kiev to dig up dirt on a rival, saying there was "nothing compromising" in transcripts of the call.

"I see nothing compromising in the conversation between Trump and (Ukrainian leader Volodymyr) Zelensky," Putin said of the phone call that has sparked an impeachment probe in the US.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/535366-nothing-compromising-in-trump-call-to-u...

4lriley
Oct 2, 2019, 10:36am

Trump is intent on using his executive privilege, the dept. of justice and of state to block the investigation in every possible way. The democrats are coming to a crossroads and if by impeaching Trump they can take away or limit Trump's executive privilege they are probably going to have to do it and maybe very soon. There's a point where you're fucking around too much and these people believe that they own the DOJ that they own the law and can do whatever they please. So far the democrats have shown they have the outrage but they haven't shown they have teeth enough for the job. Got to get a lot meaner.

5proximity1
Edited: Oct 2, 2019, 1:21pm


>2 Molly3028:

If the American voting-public at large were to decide the matter, Donald Trump would finish his first-term as president-- (as he almost certainly shall do one way or the other)-- without being subjected to an utterly partisan and corrupted version of the Constitution's provisions for impeachment.

6margd
Oct 2, 2019, 3:44pm

>1 margd: contd. :(

Yamiche Alcindor @Yamiche | 1:44 PM · Oct 2, 2019
Confirmed: A source familiar tells me the State Department IG briefing on the Hill is
about retaliation against State Department officials who are trying to cooperate with House Democrats.

7margd
Oct 3, 2019, 1:04am

The Dangerous Position of William Barr
David Rohde | September 29, 2019

...Since Mitchell (Watergate), Attorneys General have also worked to restore public faith in the independence of the Justice Department. Edward Levi, a conservative legal scholar whom Gerald Ford appointed as the first post-Watergate Attorney General, was hailed by both political parties for restoring neutrality and integrity to the office. In an attempt to cement Levi’s legacy, multiple Republican and Democratic Attorneys General have recused themselves from investigations involving the Presidents who appointed them. During the Clinton Administration, Janet Reno recused herself from the Whitewater investigation, which led to Clinton’s impeachment. During the George W. Bush Administration, Attorneys General John Ashcroft and Alberto Gonzales both recused themselves from an investigation of the leak of the C.I.A. agent Valerie Plame’s identity. Barr has an opportunity to do the same and recuse himself from the Trump-Ukraine investigation—to show that he represents the best interests of the American people, not those of Donald Trump. So far, he has declined to do so.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-dangerous-position-of-william-b...

8proximity1
Edited: Oct 3, 2019, 10:55am

>7 margd:

Fucking bullshit.

_________________________

>6 margd:

And why should State Department employees--in an agency of the executive branch of government which is under the direction of the president and his appointed secretary-- "cooperate" in the partisan efforts of Democratic party members of the legislative branch's House of Representatives!!??

Professionals in the Department of State have no business aiding and abetting partisan efforts to undermine their own official directors' policies and acts.

If they had knowledge of wrong-doing on Trump's part, they could and should have brought it to the attention of that dumb-fuck, Robert Mueller, the special prosecutor, during his years'-long vain effort to drum up, fabricate grounds for criminal charges agaisnt Trump. Apparently they didn't. Surely Mueller should have jumped at such stuff. So, which is it: was it not there or was Mueller and a vast staff, spending millions of tax-dollars, really that fucking incompetent?

It's rather amazing, isn't it? : Mueller learned nothing about this alleged connivance between Trump and the leadership of Ukraine.

9margd
Oct 3, 2019, 6:56am

Current and former U.S. officials studying the document pointed to several elements that, they say, indicate that the document may have been handled in an unusual way.
Carol D. Leonnig, Craig Timberg and Drew Harwell | Oct. 2, 2019

...Those include the use of ellipses (...) — punctuation indicating that information has been deleted for clarity or other reasons — that traditionally have not appeared in summaries of presidential calls with foreign leaders...

...they accompanied Trump’s reference to cybersecurity firm CrowdStrike...Trump...asking Zelensky about...theory that Democratic presidential candidate Joseph Biden had, while vice president, demanded the removal of a prosecutor looking to investigate Biden’s son Hunter.

...the brevity of a document purporting to represent a call that lasted 30 minutes...read the call summary aloud...: 10 minutes 40 seconds, or roughly 20 minutes shorter than the White House’s assertion about the call’s length.

...rough transcript of the Zelensky call includes about half the number of words that would be expected if the call had proceeded at the same or similar pace as the previous calls.

...unusual for lacking a tracking number that would normally indicate it had been circulated to senior subject experts and the national security adviser’s office for review and edits. Instead of a “package” number, the memo released by the White House carries a stamp saying: “PkgNumberShort.”

...carries classification markings that Situation Room staffers do not normally add when they create a word-for-word transcript..."didn’t go through the normal process"...

The whistleblower said in his complaint that multiple U.S. officials had alerted him that “senior White House officials had intervened to ‘lock down’ all records of the phone call, especially the official word-for-word transcript of the call that was produced — as is customary — by the White House Situation Room. This set of actions underscored to me that White House officials understood the gravity of what had transpired in the call.“

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/03/odd-markings-ellipses-fuel-...

10fuzzi
Oct 3, 2019, 10:12am

>8 proximity1: casting your pearls ... ? (Matthew 7:6)

11margd
Oct 3, 2019, 11:55am

Trump says he wants Ukraine, China to investigate Bidens
October 3, 2019 / 10:40 AM / Updated 20 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S President Donald Trump said on Thursday he wanted Ukraine and China to investigate political rival and former U.S. Vice President Joe Biden and his son, openly advocating an action that triggered a Democratic impeachment inquiry in Congress.

...“I would recommend that they start an investigation into the Bidens,” Trump said in response to a question on what he wanted Zelenskiy to do.

As he left the White House for a visit to Florida, Trump also said he believed China should launch a probe of the Bidens, alluding to unproven allegations he and his lawyer have made about Hunter Biden’s business dealings in China.

“And by the way, likewise, China should start an investigation into the Bidens. Because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine.”

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1179769680246005760
__________________________________________________​

Joyce Alene @JoyceWhiteVance (U Alabama Law) | 11:19 AM · Oct 3, 2019:
1/ Trump just committed a felony violation of law by soliciting something of value in connection with a US election from a foreign gov’t on national TV. 52 U.S. Code § 30121. Violating the law isn’t necessary for Impeachment but it certainly warrants it. https://law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30121

2/ The statute requires knowledge your conduct is a crime. After the Mueller investigation, there’s no way Trump was unaware this violates the law. Ukraine/China can you hear me is even worse than Russia, if that’s possible, because it comes from a sitting president.

3/ Campaign finance crimes also require a thing of value be involved. But as FEC Chair @EllenLWeintraub
recently said, you don’t have to be able to assign a dollar amount. But, in the case of Ukraine, Trump did this. The help he sought was worth $400mil in US aid. That’s a felony

The key here is recalling impeachment doesn’t require a felony. Impeachment is meant, in the immortal words of @LindseyGrahamSC
to cleanse the office. But for those who’ve demanded a felony crime before a president can be impeached, here it is in plain view.

12proximity1
Edited: Oct 6, 2019, 5:51am

>10 fuzzi:

The people I'd like to reach with data and reasoned-argument aren't what I'd call a wasted cause.

Those who are a waste of time are of course not worth (my) worrying about. There are not that many of them--eventhough, in reading these threads, it is easy to assume they're a really very significantly large part of the general public, in fact they are not.

Read the recent Quinnipiac University poll--for what it's worth (and that in itself is a debatable matter):

Overall, it is completely obvious that, on every important or interesting issue, the opinions are overwhelmingly divided on partisan lines.

Question No. 11 is typical of what I mean:

"11. As you may know, the House of Representatives has begun a formal impeachment inquiry to determine whether or not to bring impeachment charges against President Trump. Do you approve or disapprove of this impeachment inquiry? "



Approve (%)

Total: 52%

Republicans : 8
Democrats : 95
Independents : 50
Men : 44
Women : 58
Respondants are White & do or do not have a college degree (? this is significant of something?) :

of these, 52% of those (W) who do have a college degree "approve"
while 34% of those (W) who do not have a college degree "approve"

Disapprove (%)

Total: 45

Republicans : 91
Democrats : 4
Independents : 45
Men : 53
Women : 38
(White) with college degree : 46
(White ) without college degree: 63

Respondants are White & do or do not have a college degree (? this is significant of something?) :

of these, 46% of those (W) who do have a college degree "disapprove" while 63% of those (W) who do not have a college degree "disapprove"

RE: "Don't Know (DK) / (NA) No Answer given" to the above question:

Total: (%) : 3
Republicans : DK/NA : 1
Democrats : DK/NA : 1
Independents : DK/NA : 6
Men : DK/NA : 3
Women : DK/NA : 3
(White) with college degree : DK/NA : 3
(White ) without college degree: DK/NA : 3



_____________________________________

Notice that, if this poll had an overall margin of error of, say, +/- 2%, then the number of those who approve of the House of Reps.' impeachment initiative would not even rise to a majority of the responses. Barely half would "approve", almost half would not approve and the remainder don't know or won't state a position.

_____________________________________


Among the the things which interest me as suggested by the poll's data is this: "White" & college-degree-holders segment; for these include many men and women who are people in middle-and-upper-corporate-management and, thus, are making key decisions and perhaps influencing others like themselves as also college-degree holding men and women. Thank goodness that, (I suspect) they are not at all so influential (to the contrary, fortunately!) among those without a college-degree of any kind.

in general, where I find I am most worried/concerned about or fear for the basic intelligence and reasoning abilities of (in this case) my fellow Americans, it is clearly just there-- among these supposedly "more (formally) highly-educated" segments of the population and, conversely, where I am most relieved and gratified at people's basic 'common'(?)-sense and reasoning, that is, again, clearly among those who supposedly are not "more (formally) highly-educated." ( that is, as measured by number of hours spent in class-room instruction).

Again, I'll offer a rough example of what I mean and why I think this is so.

We're told over and over by the idiot television pundits opposed to Trump that what matters here is the simple and bare fact that Trump, in a direct personal communication with a foreign leader, implied or suggested or even more unambiguously requested that the foreign leader use his resources to learn about activities on the parts of Joe Biden or his son, Hunter, or both of them, with regard to their business relations (and, of course, implied as a part of this, an associated money-trail) with Ukrainians in the Ukraine or elsewhere. Period.

Now, my point is that if one grows stuff, builds stuff, makes things with one's own hands, if one drives a truck or a fork-lift, climbs a pole or a construction-crane, or repairs things in rough weather,or wears goggles and safety-gear (outside of a university research laboratory or science institute)--if one does this kind of work, one is, I gather, much more likely to question the television pundits' presentation of the Biden affairs as a too-narrow simplificiation.

What these just-described people will wonder is really much more to the essential point:

Were Trump's solicitations without any basis in, any grounding in actual facts? In other words, was Trump soliciting the foreign leaders' help in just getting anything, even false allegations, purely for use in damaging his potential political opponent--and for no other plausible motive than sheer and unsubstantiated defamation ?--the kind of thing, indeed, that so characterizes Trump's opponents' charges against Trump himself.

OR, was there, on the contrary, soeme genuine basis for concern about and a need for valid and accurate information on the activities of the Bidens with certain people in Ukraine political and business circles?

If it's partly or mainly the latter, then these work-with-their-hands people are not at all so worried about the implications of this supposedy damning impeachment-sealing matter.

They think, instead, that as a matter of fact, what we really need and want to know is whether there is important evidence that the Bidens--father or son or both--had irregular dealings with shady Ukrainian business interests in which there was a behind-the-scenes political-paid-quid-pro-quo--which rise to the level of illegal influence-peddling among foreign--not that their being foreigners ought to be particularly damning in and of itself, but it's a part of this potentially-very-sordid picture.

The television talking-heads who are opposed to Trump are attempting to do what is analogous to a patrolman-on-the-beat's saying to New Yorkers in the Wall-Street-area of lower Manhattan on the 11th of September, 2001, after 10:30 in the morning:

"Move along, folks! Nothing to see here! Go about your business as usual."

And it is ever clearer that this is a frantic effort and it is largely or entirely owed to certain very important Obama-administration officials' terrified worry that, unless Attorney General William Barr's investigations are thwarted, derailed, the investigations shall eventually discover and reveal clear evidence of their participation in exactly the sort of things which Special prosecutor Robert Mueller spent years and millions of dollars in a failed effort to find concerning Donald Trump as candidate for president and, later, as president--as though this hasn't already in various and sundry fashions come about--in what would be, were the mainstream news media not so thoroughly "in the tank" for Obama-Biden-Clinton-Podesta, et al, more widely seen for the scandalous and alarming things they are.

13lriley
Edited: Oct 3, 2019, 12:22pm

The important thing to keep in mind when looking at recent polling is there are lots of polls and the %'s of those for impeachment in pretty much all of them are steadily climbing higher and higher. Naturally there will come a point where those numbers plateau but we're still kind of at the beginning of this Ukraine thing too. Once the impeachment actually goes forward into the trial those plateaued numbers might rise again particularly if Trump is forced to testify on his own behalf because he's about the loosest cannon there is. Today he admitted that he asked Ukraine to investigate a political opponent and even went on to say that China should investigate the same opponent. He doesn't get it that he's not king of the USA--he never has. He is volatile and has no real sense of reality and could care less about fact or law.

So yeah I'm waiting for Trumpty dumpster fire to fall off his 'wall' and crack his fucking melon.

14LolaWalser
Oct 3, 2019, 1:21pm

Who could do even more damage in the remaining year, Trump or Pence?

Sam Bee's review of what Pence has wrought:

Mike Pence Takes HHS To The Past | Full Frontal on TBS

Ideally, you'd want to get rid of both these creeps.

15proximity1
Edited: Oct 3, 2019, 2:33pm

>14 LolaWalser:

Yes, of course: "ideally," one doesn't stop simply with getting rid of Trump.

And with three sorry years' experience to guide us, please!: who, of Trump's defenders, could possibly be so naive as to suppose that there'd be an end of this madness with the removal of Trump alone?

Thus the obvious goal is revealed in all its sordid glory. It isn't at all sufficient to simply get rid of Trump alone. The Democrats cannot abide the fact that they didn't win the 2016 presidential election according to the electoral-college terms--though, of course, if they had, there'd be no grand designs being floated about reforming that and ending its undemocratic workings against one-person,-one-vote election. Trump's opponents'--Democrats and Republicans--goal is obviously to reverse that election, to undo what voters' ballots, according to electoral-college standards of practice, produced.

And that, of course, explains why their strategy's center-piece is impeachment rather than just duking it out in the 2020 electoral contest---that would take the prerogative out of the hands of Senators and Congressmen and put it back where it all went so "wrong" in the first place, at the electoral-college ruled ballot-box, where too many voters in the places where it counted most voted "wrong" while there was a surfeit of votes in numerous other places which, though "correct" in the World According to the Clintons, the Bidens, & the Obamas, didn't move the electoral-college needle over to the "Winner" category for that world-view.

And that, summed up and taken together for its wider import for the political order, is why it is so very important that, whatever may be one's digust of the person Donald Trump, much more important, unless one is simply ready to fully and unconditionally hand over absolutely all power and prerogative to the elite coporate-media juggernaut class and leave all participatory politics to fantasy gaming, one has to make a determined stand to insist on and assert the role and place of the elected candidate, Donald Trump--even if, and especially if, his opponents succeed in impeaching and convicting him in what is tantamount to an utterly politically-motivated coup under color of a corruption of the Constitution's terms.

Therefore, if impeached and removed, every conscientious American voter who gives a damn for the nation's future as even a woefully inadequate kind of pseudo-democracy must help return Trump to office for no other reason than to enforce clearly a message to the overly-powerful-and-privileged class:

"When we elect someone, he (or she) stays elected-- whether that suits you lot or not. Got that!?"

For the sake of sending that message and that message alone, it is beyond all question important and worth the trouble to go and again see that Trump's 2016 victory by the electoral-college rules is not reversed by powerful malcontents and, if reversed, then re-confirmed in the 2020 presidential contest.

This whole argument would be no less true and valid if, say, Elizabeth Warren had been the victor in 2016 and Republican malcontents had done the same to her that they and their Democratic party co-conspirators have done to Trump before, during and since his election to the presidency.

"We the People," not the highly-paid political pundits, decide these matters. In such matters,"fuck with us" at your peril.

Unless voters, joining together in their common long-term interests across party lines insist very very clearly on this point, then, from now on, the corporato-media ruling elite need never more concern themselves with the petty business of fielding a slate of candidates--all safely within their reliable supervision--and then waiting to see which of them the common electorate chooses to put into office. For every election shall have become nothing other than either the confirmation of a pre-ordained decision by this elite ruling class, or, in contrary case, merely the opening prelude to its systematic reversal by methods and means which shall have become tried, tested and true to the momentarily-disappointed elite's desired ends.

At that point the United States joins the banana-republics as a full-fledged member. And there is no coming back from that disgrace.

Does your fucking democratic order matter enough to you to defend and protect it against those who are adroitly playing you for a partisan sucker? If it does, then you'd best get over your finicky and squeamish hesitation about defending the winning-candidate--though you may think him or her "deplorable" and elected by the deplorable, though he (or she) may have in the past done things which are the equivalent of the current president's "grabbing women by the pussy" because that's sort of what goes in some circles in some circumstances.

There are larger and more serious things than this aspect of the current president's past; and saving the nation's democratic life, as tattered and broken though it be, is one of them.

16lriley
Oct 3, 2019, 3:28pm

#14--Trump has linked Pence into his Ukrainian adventure. (I can only wonder what Michael is thinking today about the 'Go ask Mike Pence. He was there too'). By rights Pence goes down along with Pompeo who's been lying through his teeth about his own role in the affair and Barr who's been obstructive in so many ways. If the ghoul Bolton wanted some revenge I'm thinking he could do a lot of revenging. Just saying--it's not so long ago and I recall how giddy Pompeo and Mnuchin were (but particularly Pompeo) the day Bolton got fired--and the thought was that those two didn't get along and there were these two clowns gleefully yucking it up right afterwards. Apparently Bolton knew that Trump's designs on investigating the Biden's was not only unlawful but fucked up and tried to dissuade Donald from following his obsessions down a rabbit hole he wouldn't be able to crawl out of.

So if Donald goes down for this all the above (minus Bolton) should go down with him.

#15--so ideally---they don't stop at Donald--they pick up the rest of the trash too. It's all the President's Men all over again.

17margd
Edited: Oct 4, 2019, 5:09am

Guns, smoking:

Adam Schiff @RepAdamSchiff | 10:35 PM · Oct 3, 2019:

After receiving a trove of important documents from the first of the state department witnesses, my fellow chairs and I highlight some of those deserving of the most attention and what is at stake.

Read them here:

https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/_cache/files/a/4/a4a91fab-99cd-4eb9-9c6c-ec1c58...

--------------------------------------------------​

Key figures in the texts:

Rudy Giuliani (Trump lawyer)
Gordon Sondland (the US ambassador to the European Union)
Bill Taylor (the top US diplomat at the US embassy in Ukraine)
Kurt Volker (then the US special representative for Ukraine)
Andrey Yermak (an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky).

__________________________________________________​

"I think potus really wants the deliverable" (Gordon Sondland, the US ambassador to the European Union)

https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1179954327877799937

__________________________________________________​

Preet Bharara @PreetBharara | 11:46 PM · Oct 3, 2019:

All week I’ve been saying you never see direct written evidence of a quid pro quo. I stand corrected.

Quote Tweet Jon Favreau @jonfavs · 5h
“AS I SAID ON THE PHONE, I THINK IT’S CRAZY TO WITTHOLD SECURITY ASSISTANCE FOR HELP WITH A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN.” *
https://twitter.com/attackerman/status/1179954586322378753

* Bill Taylor (the top US diplomat at the US embassy in Ukraine)

__________________________________________________​

David Frum @davidfrum | 12:07 AM · Oct 4, 2019:

Don’t call these texts dumb. Taylor (top US diplomat in Ukariane) was building a file.
If we save the country, his determination to put the facts on record will be an important reason why.
Sonderland (US ambassador to EU) not dumb either. He recognized what Taylor was doing and demanded Taylor cease.
Which Taylor refused to do

(See highlighted text at https://twitter.com/charlie_savage/status/1179958613873438720/photo/1)
__________________________________________________​

Meanwhile, in beleaguered Ukraine:

Ukraine signs key agreement with pro-Russia separatists
Oct 1, 2019

Ukraine has signed an agreement with pro-Russia separatists allowing for local elections to be held in separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine. It could pave the way for further peace talks...

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-signs-key-agreement-with-pro-russia-separatists/a-...

18margd
Edited: Oct 4, 2019, 5:20am

Trump raised Biden with Xi in June call housed in highly secure server
Kylie Atwood, Kevin Liptak, Pamela Brown, Jim Sciutto and Gloria Borger | October 3, 2019

Washington (CNN)When President Donald Trump suggested — without prompting — that China should investigate Joe Biden and his son, he thrust another political grudge into what was already the world's most complicated and consequential relationship.

The move startled Chinese officials, who say they have little interest in becoming embroiled in a US political controversy. And it amounted to the latest extraordinary effort by Trump to openly request political assistance from foreign governments.

Thursday's comments weren't the first time Trump has injected Biden into his relationship with China, though he said Thursday he has never pushed Xi to investigate the former vice president. Nor is it the first time he has sought to trade favors with Xi, who this week celebrated the 70th birthday of his communist state with a note of congratulations from Trump.

During a phone call with Xi on June 18, Trump raised Biden's political prospects as well as those of Sen. Elizabeth Warren, who by then had started rising in the polls, according to two people familiar with the discussion. In that call, Trump also told Xi he would remain quiet on Hong Kong protests as trade talks progressed...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/03/politics/trump-biden-call-xi-secure-server/index....

__________________________________________________​

Note as with Ukraine, brave protesters in Hong Kong also thrown under bus in Donaldo's quest for political dirt.
Probably the rest of us, too, as Trump "negotiates" trade agreement with China... :(

19proximity1
Edited: Oct 4, 2019, 5:32am

>18 margd:


"Washington (CNN) When President Donald Trump suggested — without prompting — that China should investigate Joe Biden and his son..."

_______________________________

Yeah? Well, good for him! You didn't mind it a bit when your own government wasted years of precious time, manpower and money investigating Trump on utterly fabricated claims which were shown to have been partisan-driven bullshit from before "the very first."

So, you and your gang of hoodlums started this ball rolling and now you get an example of "what goes around comes around." Better get used to it. William Barr is going to be very busy for some time to come.

Your goddamned partisan fervor earned you this--so "enjoy it".

It's long past time that California's 28th district electorate replace Adam Schiff.

20John5918
Oct 4, 2019, 6:33am

>19 proximity1:

Claims against Trump were not "utterly fabricated", as the final report did highlight areas of concern. But the point is that it was "your own government" exercising oversight of an elected official, which is a perfectly legal and normal process. It was not an elected official asking a foreign government to interfere, which is not normal nor arguably legal. You're ranting a bit, aren't you, and missing the point?

21margd
Edited: Oct 4, 2019, 7:39am

Politico's succinct summary of recent developments is worth a read:

POLITICO Playbook: The smoking texts
ANNA PALMER and JAKE SHERMAN | 10/04/2019

DRIVING THE DAY
HERE’S WHAT WE CAN SAY DEFINITIVELY: President DONALD TRUMP is bending the machinations of the U.S. government toward taking down JOE BIDEN. Senate and House Republicans are helping him by sticking by his side. That’s not an opinion; it’s a fact.

TRUMP’S ADMINISTRATION IS BROWBEATING U.S. ALLIES -- Australia, Italy, Ukraine, the United Kingdom -- to investigate the origins of the Mueller probe.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE OF OPINION NOW is not over the facts...(President is) root(ing) out corruption (v.)...deeply unfit for office and deserves to be impeached.

EVIDENCE: A NUMBER OF STORIES dropped Thursday night
-- WSJ: “Trump Ordered Ukraine Ambassador Removed After Complaints From Giuliani, Others”
-- NYT: “Trump Envoys Pushed Ukraine to Commit to Investigations”
-- NBC: “U.S. ambassadors pushed Ukraine to investigate as condition for White House visit, texts show”

SUCCESS … @JonahFisherBBC: “BREAKING: Ukraine’s current prosecutor general says his office is going to review up to 15 cases that involve Burisma - the company that Joe Biden's son Hunter worked for.”

AND THEN THIS … CNN: “Trump raised Biden with Xi in June call housed in highly secure server,” by Kylie Atwood, Kevin Liptak, Pamela Brown, Jim Sciutto and Gloria Borger

-- ALSO WILD: “In that call, Trump also told Xi he would remain quiet on Hong Kong protests as trade talks progressed.”

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook/2019/10/04/the-smoking-texts-48528...

22proximity1
Edited: Oct 4, 2019, 12:49pm

WHY Wait for the election results? IMPEACH (Not-Yet-president) BIDEN NOW!

__________________________________________________​

The U.S. government could save billions of precious dollars by going ahead now with the impeachment of future-president Joe Biden.

Let's get started. To waste the time and money to elect this influence-peddler and then only later get around to taking his misdeeds seriously is ridiculous.

Let's do "for Biden" what demented anti-Trump maniacs are trying to do "for Trump" and pre-empt an election of Biden by impeaching him sooner rather than later.

How do you like it, Wacko anti-Trump maniacs? These are now the political norms we're going to live through over and over again until we get this insanity (yours as much as anyone else's) out of our (political) system.

Every new president is now going to face a very determined impeachment juggernaut. The next one which targets a Democratic party president is your legacy.

________________________________________

It's time you were reading or re-reading certain of "Shakespere's" plays.
_________________________________________

Whatever one's point of view or partisan position, reading Shakespeare's plays, while always useful and interesting no matter the particularities of the times in which one lives, is especially interesting and useful today.

That is because, among other things, we can see that this playwright, when rightly understood for who he was, had a privileged seat in the circles of high state power of his day. He was Edward, Earl of Oxford (the seventeenth in his family line) and he personally knew well virtually all of the Elizabethan court's most important people--including the queen herself, of course, but especially his father-in-law, William Cecil, Baron Burghley, secretary to the queen and Elizabeth's most important and longest-serving right-hand man in virtually all respects.

It is this which permitted Oxford, as he was called, holding the earldom of that title, to see and understand how high political office-holders behave in power and how they are so often undone by their own over-reaching ambitions, setting up their own real-life political tragedy by putting into action forces which come to have far-reaching consequences --consequences, of course, not only for themselves but for the nations of people over whom they wield power-- the consequences which undo them are invariably just those which they fail to recognize before it is too late. That, in a nutshell is the core dramatic element in most of Oxford's dramatic work under the pen-name "William Shakespere".

It was not only his innate genius which allowed his piercing dramas to be created but also the happenstance of his high birth and the privileged view on political power and those who wielded it that went into his work and they are these elements which make his plays on political affairs of state ever-useful, ever-revealing, for our own insights into political actors and their affairs of state.

23margd
Edited: Oct 4, 2019, 4:53pm

What Was Gordon Sondland’s Mission to Ukraine for Trump All About?
Steven Erlanger and Matina Stevis-Gridneff | Oct. 4, 2019

Gordon D. Sondland, the blunt-spoken hotelier who (raised a lot of money for Mr. Trump and) is President Trump’s ambassador to the European Union, was boasting on Ukrainian television that Mr. Trump had honored him with a “special assignment” — “overseeing” relations between the two countries “at the highest levels.” ( his grandparents were from Ukraine... )

...Asked in the interview (on Ukarinian TV about progress in Ukraine-America relations, including questions like membership of NATO and energy security, Mr. Sondland urged patience. “It’s not a question of saying no...It’s a question of saying when. There are certain things that they have to do. There are preconditions to anything.”

...Mr. Sondland’s “special assignment”...was instrumental in the negotiations with Mr. Zelensky’s team and Rudolph W. Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer...

...In his interview with Ukrainian television, Mr. Sondland said the American-Ukrainian relationship was in the hands of “what are called the three amigos’’ — himself, Energy Secretary Rick Perry* and Kurt D. Volker, the special representative for Ukraine negotiations.

The July...delegation was led by Mr. Perry and included Mr. Volker, Mr. Sondland and Senator Ron Johnson**, Republican of Wisconsin.

...(July) party and (June dinner was also attended by Jared Kushner, Mr. Trump’s son-in-law and adviser; Mr. Perry; the Polish prime minister; and Ulrich Brechbuhl, a State Department counselor who is mentioned in the whistle-blower memo as having listened in to the July 25 telephone call.

On Aug. 9, according to the texts released, Mr. Sondland thought he was finally making progress on getting a date for the Zelensky visit to the White House. But he was unsure, messaging Mr. Volker: “I think POTUS really wants the deliverable,” meaning a public Zelensky statement about his commitment to investigate the Bidens and 2016.***

...Mr. Perry, Mr. Sondland and Mr. Pence also met with Mr. Zelensky in Warsaw on Aug. 31...“The Vice President reiterated the U.S.’ support of Ukraine’s security and rightful claim to Crimea,’’ the statement read. ‘‘President Zelensky articulated his administration’s commitment to defeating corruption and pledged to launch much anticipated reforms.”

On Sept. 1, Mr. Taylor texted Mr. Sondland: “Are we now saying that security assistance and WH meeting are conditioned on investigations?” Mr. Sondland responded by ending the text exchange and reverting to a telephone call.

But by Sept. 9, matters remained unclear. Mr. Taylor, the acting ambassador, messaged: “As I said on the phone, I think it’s crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign.”

Mr. Sondland responded: “Bill, I believe you are incorrect about President Trump’s intentions. The President has been crystal clear no quid pro quo’s of any kind.’’

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/04/world/europe/trump-ambassador-ukraine-sondlan...

__________________________________________________​

* Rick Perry Is Said to Be Resigning as Energy Secretary by Year’s End
Lisa Friedman and Maggie Haberman | Oct. 4, 2019
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/04/climate/rick-perry-energy-secretary.html

ETA_______________________________________________​

** Rebecca Ballhaus @rebeccaballhaus | 1:36 PM · Oct 4, 2019:
NEWS: GOP Sen. Ron Johnson tells WSJ that the U.S. ambassador to the EU told him in August that the status of aid to Ukraine was tied to Trump’s interest in having Kiev investigate certain matters. Johnson confronted Trump, who denied it. w/@siobhanehughes

Trump, in August Call With GOP Senator (Ron Johnson), Denied Official’s Claim on Ukraine Aid
Siobhan Hughes and Rebecca Ballhaus | Oct. 4, 2019 2:42 pm ET

...Sen. Ron Johnson (R., Wis.) said he learned of a potential quid pro quo from the U.S. ambassador to the European Union, Gordon Sondland, who told him that aid to Ukraine was tied to the desire by Mr. Trump and his allies to have Kyiv undertake investigations that the president has sought. (Mr. Johnson said Mr. Sondland told him, Ukraine would appoint a strong prosecutor general and move to “get to the bottom of what happened in 2016—if President Trump has that confidence, then he’ll release the military spending”...“I winced,” Mr. Johnson said. “My reaction was: Oh, God. I don’t want to see those two things combined.” He...doesn’t believe Mr. Biden’s name came up during his conversations with Mr. Sondland or Mr. Trump.)

Mr. Johnson raised the issue with Mr. Trump in a phone call on Aug. 31... Mr. Trump flatly rejected the notion that he directed aides to make military aid to Ukraine contingent on a new investigation by Kyiv...

...Mr. Volker, the former U.S. envoy for Ukraine negotiations, told House lawmakers in testimony on Thursday that he wasn’t aware the president had mentioned Mr. Biden’s name in the phone call with Mr. Zelensky until the White House released a rough transcript last week...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-administration-used-potential-meeting-to-pres...

__________________________________________________​

** Ukraine to Review Criminal Case on Owner of Firm Linked to Biden’s Son
Andrew E. Kramer | Oct. 4, 2019
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/04/world/europe/ukraine-biden-burisma.html

24margd
Oct 4, 2019, 1:57pm

McConnell signaling Trump trial to be quick, if it happens
Alexander Bolton - 10/04/19

...McConnell says he is required by the Senate rules to take up articles of impeachment,
but notes that there is no requirement on how long such a trial must last...

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/464307-mcconnell-signaling-trump-trial-to-be...

____________________________________________

David Frum @davidfrum | 12:11 PM · Oct 4, 2019:

Remember: while it takes 67 votes in the Senate to remove, the rules of the trial are decided by majority vote. R majority in Senate is only 53. If Romney and Sasse demand a real trial - if Murkowksi agrees - McConnell's hopes for hush-up suddenly recede ...

25margd
Oct 4, 2019, 2:13pm

Josh Lederman @JoshNBCNews | 11:33 AM · Oct 4, 2019:

Trump is asked whether he's ever asked a foreign government to investigate corruption NOT involving one of Trump's political opponents.

"We'd have to look," Trump says

26margd
Edited: Oct 4, 2019, 6:14pm

Walter Shaub @waltshaub (former director Office of Govt Ethics) | 10:13 AM · Oct 4, 2019
Twenty-one. That's how many Republican Senators need to decide whether they love America. I don't like thinking about parties, but 21 stand in the way of saving America from the catastrophic consequences of President Trump's republic-destroying corruption. Consider this snapshot:

1. A sitting POTUS solicited a foreign attack on our election by an authoritarian superpower that recently stole 21 million security clearance files, which contain the most intimate personal information imaginable, and is now engaged in a trade war with us.

2. A sitting POTUS solicited a foreign attack on our election by a desperate country that has been invaded by our nemesis and is fighting for its survival in a battle that has already killed 13,000 people and cost it territory, making it completely depending on our government.

3. A sitting POTUS agreed to back off on criticizing the superpower's repression of protesters in Hong Kong, raising the issue of an apparent quid pro quo (which is not necessary for impeachment but is a horrific aggravating factor).

4. A sitting POTUS blocked aid to the dependent country and sent his political appointees to demand that the dependent country demonstrate it will investigate his political rival before he would even meet with them. AGAIN, although quid pro quo is not necessary, it's now CLEAR.

5. A sitting POTUS fired his AG for not stopping an investigation of his campaign, which later produced a shockingly damning report, and the beneficiary of this slow motion Saturday Night Massacre is now working with him to abuse federal resources to investigate the investigator.

6. A sitting POTUS has posted ON THE WHITE HOUSE WEBSITE evidence that he may have directed his slow motion Saturday Night Massacre beneficiary of an Attorney General to abuse the criminal investigative apparatus of the State to investigate his political rival.

7. A sitting POTUS has attacked the whistleblower who exposed his solicitation of a foreign attack on our election, in an effort to not only intimidate this whistleblower but to intimidate other whistleblowers in order to ensure that his corruption continues unchecked.

8. A sitting POTUS has attacked the constitutional separation of powers by implementing an unprecedented across-the-board refusal to cooperate with any Congressional oversight, risking the total destruction of our system of checks and balances on executive abuses of power.

9. A sitting POTUS is using federal resources to promote his properties by taking staff and foreign leaders to his resorts and by creating the appearance that access to government and favoritism can be purchased—a message influence-seekers have heard and acted upon.

10. Members of Congress who, for eight years of the Obama administration, lauded whistleblowers have done the President's bidding by attacking whistleblowers as a means to insulate the President from consequences that may flow from his rampant corruption.

11. A sitting POTUS obstructed an investigation into possible coordination with Russian during the 2016 election and has failed to explain the extensive links between his campaign and Russia, after having asked Russia on camera to hack his political rival's computer system.

12. Trump White House officials tried to conceal wrongdoing by hiding records of official conversations, both inappropriately in a highly secure national security system and by collecting translator notes and other records.

13. A sitting POTUS has violated the constitution by accepting emoluments from foreign governments, the federal government and at least one state.

14. A new whistleblower raises the possibility that a Trump appointee tried to interfere in the IRS audit of POTUS or VPOTUS's tax returns. And, even if investigation doesn't wind up substantiating the claim, the admin is violating a law requiring release of Trump's returns.

15. A sitting POTUS has advanced his scheme of corruption by targeting or publicly condemning career officials who attempt to hold him accountable or merely uphold the rule of law, including our former Ambassador to Ukraine, the Special Counsel, investigators, and others.

16. A sitting POTUS has called on DOJ to investigate his former political rival for his political advantage. He similarly pressured the USPS to raise rates on an American business because he didn't like the coverage of his misdeeds by a paper the owner of that business also owns.

17. He has called for a "treason" prosecution of a Congressional Chair for conducting congressional oversight, repeatedly attacked the free press and debased the office of the President by his disgraceful public remarks and behavior. (See impeachment of Pres. Andrew Johnson)

(The math is a little off. Technically, it's 19 Republicans. I forgot there are 2 independents. And there are some typos. But the government is burning down, so these are not the details that matter.)

27RunzWithSzizers
Oct 4, 2019, 11:26pm

I heard Trump also had Chicken for dinner.
Chicken=Bird=Crane=Ukraine+Bird-r=Bid+en=BIDEN!
Coincidence? I think not. Better start another investigation. After all, there's nothing better everyone should be doing.
Just curious, does all of this Trump hate cause severe headaches?
Oh! There's another one.....severe=difficult=hard=impossible not to be amused at the number of blood vessels popping in the search for something, anything to be used to oust an admittedly childish and ill-mannered at times, yet brilliant, brave, extremely patient businessman, who jumped in without the slightest idea of how a "politician" is supposed to act (thank God), who is bringing us back from a certain end of the great American Experiment.

28guido47
Oct 5, 2019, 1:38am

Do you think >27 RunzWithSzizers: is a sockpuppet?

29krolik
Oct 5, 2019, 3:07am

>28 guido47:
More likely a suck poppet...

30fuzzi
Oct 5, 2019, 7:52am

A bit of (epithet-laced) truth about the current political culture from a non-conservative Brit:
https://youtu.be/GLG9g7BcjKs?list=FLZc6oTdxNLKcAVBEjgOGFpg&t=91

31margd
Oct 5, 2019, 8:16am

>17 margd: texts, contd.: "black propaganda":

Asha Rangappa @AshaRangappa_ (former FBI Special Agent) | 10/5/2019:

THREAD. One thing not to overlook in understanding the significance of the texts is that in addition to soliciting section assistance and abusing his power, Trump was attempting to employ covert propaganda against the American public:
CNN clip of interview with Rangappa (1:21)
https://twitter.com/i/status/1180201437856448534

2. As I note in the clip above, one thing the texts make clear is that the administration wasn't just interested in Ukraine investigating Biden -- they were specifically interested in the *messaging* about the investigation. If what you care about is "corruption," you would

3. be satisfied with an assurance that Ukraine was going to investigate. Instead, the Trump admin doesn't care so much about the investigation itself, but making sure that the fact that it is being investigated is *being broadcast* to the audience they care about: American voters

4. IMPORTANTLY, they are very invested in the message being crafted in a *specific way* -- tailored to Trump's benefit by maximizing the "seeds of doubt" on both Biden and the 2016 election. It's being drafted by Trump's personal lawyer!

5. In addition, the message was going to be delivered as an official statement from Ukraine, with NO INDICATION that the United States either precipitated or participated in its creation in any way. This, folks, is called black propaganda.

6. Black propaganda attempts to conceal the true source of information, so that the target cannot accurately assess the credibility of the message or the motives of the source behind it. Trump wanted to cloak his own role and motives behind a statement of a foreign country

7. The goal here is to manipulate the American public into to thinking that Ukraine had *independently* reached the same conclusions about the Russia investigation, and/or uncovered criminal leads about Biden. Trump could then use this to bolster his own views

8. Not for nothing, but a good chunk of the cases I investigated in the FBI were "perception management" (propaganda) cases. We actively try to STOP foreign countries from doing this to us, because we believe that part of an open society and marketplace of ideas is

9. ensuring that people know the true source of information in order to assess credibility and critically evaluate the content (FARA originated in 1938 as a way to combat Nazi propaganda, be requiring state-sponsored content to be identified as such)

10. Basically, you have the Trump admin attempting to conduct an illegal covert psyop on the American public, using officials from the State Department and his own attorney to do it. It's literally a version of what Russia did in 2016. /END

32alco261
Oct 5, 2019, 8:31am

>27 RunzWithSzizers: ...and fell on them....

33margd
Edited: Oct 5, 2019, 9:12am

stuart stevens @stuartpstevens |7:43 PM · Oct 4, 2019:
His campaign manager is a felon.
His deputy campaign manager is a felon.
His NSA is a felon. His foreign policy advisor is a felon.
His longtime personal lawyer is a felon.
But the defense is he cares about corruption?

Quote Tweet Ben Shapiro @benshapiro · 21h
This, from Trump, is the entire defense.
Which is why Giuliani’s testimony will end up being the make or break for the Democrats.

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump 8:16 AM · Oct 4, 2019
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1180094411323117568
As President I have an obligation to end CORRUPTION, even if that means requesting the help of a foreign country or countries.
It is done all the time.
This has NOTHING to do with politics or a political campaign against the Bidens.
This does have to do with their corruption!

ETA_______________________________________________​

Josh Lederman @JoshNBCNews | 11:33 AM · Oct 4, 2019:
Trump is asked whether he's ever asked a foreign government to investigate corruption NOT involving one of Trump's political opponents.
"We'd have to look," Trump says

ETA_______________________________________________​

David Frum @davidfrum | 9:08 AM · Oct 5, 2019
At the Trump hotel, you can charge your bribes to American Express and deduct them from your company's taxes.

34proximity1
Edited: Oct 5, 2019, 10:27am

>30 fuzzi:

+ 10,000 !

I've also posted a link to that video in previous posts in this site's comments threads.

With few exceptions, everything from T.W. (a.k.a. "Jonathan Pie") prompts me to say to myself, "I wish I'd said that." In other ways and other words, I very often have said "that"--- "What he said!"

Walker's work is brilliant -- though it has happened (rarely) that I disagee with some aspect of certain things he's said; I always admire his essential motives and intentions, even when I can't completely agree with him in every sense and detail.

35Molly3028
Edited: Oct 5, 2019, 10:04am

Throughout time, America's history books are going to have a
record of how GOPers refused to impeach a president who
committed treason during his despicable era.

36proximity1
Edited: Oct 6, 2019, 5:54am

>35 Molly3028:

"Treason", uniquely of criminal acts, is defined in the Constitution.

Both you and Trump abuse and misuse this term and I suppose that's a combination of your neither knowing nor caring much about whether you're using terms irresponisibly loosely nor knowing what "treason" means in U.S. law.

If those who drafted the Constitution's early articles took the trouble to clearly define what "treason" meant and what (everything outside their narrow definition) could not be called "treason", it's because they had direct experience under British rule in which "treason" was so vague as to include just about anything that was regarded by the crown (King or Queen) as sufficiently outrageous.

Whatever Trump has done, there is one thing which is beyond dispute: he has NEVER engaged in treason under the U.S. law for he has never done any of the following:

("Treason against the United States, shall consist only in"...)

levying War against (the United States),

or in adhering to their Enemies,

giving them Aid and Comfort."

"No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court." (Article Three, section three)

In peacetime, it is virtually impossible to commit treason as the Constitution defines it since "enemies" meant people (nation-states, to be more precise) with which the United States was in a declared state of war. This is made manifest by the term's first specific aspect being "waging war" against the United States.

A president is not guilty of treason simply because he or she maintains close friendly relations with a foreign government's leadership--a party head or elected or appointed ruler as head of state-- even while many U.S. citizens despise or distrust that foreign leader.

So, no— "America's history books are" not "going to have a record of how GOPers refused to impeach a president who committed treason during his despicable era" unless or until a serving president actually commits treason.

You might as well call for the impeachment of Trump for, say, murder in the first degee, even though, of course, he hasn't committed that crime, either. Apparently this fact doesn't interest you that much.

37Molly3028
Edited: Oct 5, 2019, 1:48pm

Diversion and the resentment card have been the two hallmarks
of the GOP during this decade. GOPers are not defending what
Trump did, they are whipping out the "process" card.

38fuzzi
Oct 5, 2019, 4:22pm

>34 proximity1: glad you enjoyed the rerun.

I thought that video was appropriate to post here, as mostly what I see on these threads are huge copy & pastes, taken generally from sites which are not known for their unbiased or agenda-free views.

No one is listening, people are just trying to out-yell each other.

I don't try to engage on LT anymore because too many who participate are typical of what Pie was describing: they don't discuss or engage, but merely scream epithets and ad hominems at anyone who doesn't agree with their own views, ridiculing and trying to shut them down. (see replies to posts such as #27 above)

39RunzWithSzizers
Edited: Oct 5, 2019, 8:29pm

Absolutely....it's the most mature thing I could opt to be if I shared these "views".
It would take too long to draw a picture. I'm just glad most Reps are more mature than I feel right now and are remaining out of this bitch fest.

40proximity1
Edited: Oct 7, 2019, 1:08pm

Brennan Is 'Concerned' That He May Be Questioned By DOJ On Origins Of Russia Probe

If I were in John Brennan's shoes, I wouldn't be describing the term “corruption” in public affairs as activities which are especially characterized by one's doing the following:


… “ Some of the definition of 'corruption'—which is, you move out of the way people who are not corrupt, you spread disinformation about them as a way to discredit them and then you try to cover-up your tracks. And I think we see all of those examples in what Donald Trump has done in the past several months. And it's my impression that they're continuing to do this and they're just digging themselves deeper and deeper into this hole”....
____________________

MS-NBC



Here's Brennan, speaking on-air from MS-NBC as this network's own “Senior National Security Analyst” about a set of circumstances in which he is personally implicated as one liable to felony criminal charges which relate to “national-security” issues and his own part in directing some of the United States' intelligence-agency operations.

Amazing! Or, well, it ought be. But then, we now live in a time when Democratic Party insiders sound talk about the U.S. intelligence agencies the way that arch-conservative Republican party elected officials used to do.

Let's also review some of the Clinton/Obama Democrats' "greatest hits"

"Senator Chuck Schumer’s (D.-N.Y.):


(Trump) "really dumb" ... "You take on the Intelligence Community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you.”


Samantha Power (former Obama administration Ambassador to the United Nations):


"Not a good idea to piss off John Brennan."

41lriley
Oct 6, 2019, 8:23am

#38--Not sure you know as much about Jonathan Pie as you think you do. If you think he's a Trump fan or for Brexit--you need to take a good several hour look through his archive......and he quite often has attacked and insulted the orange one. The thing with Pie really is no one is safe from critique--not Cameron, not May, not Corbyn, not Johnson, not Trump and not even the Queen. They all leave something to be desired in his eyes but he particularly does not like figures on the political right.

42margd
Edited: Oct 6, 2019, 8:49am

This message has been deleted by its author.

432wonderY
Oct 6, 2019, 10:25am

44margd
Edited: Oct 6, 2019, 11:07am

Andrew P. Bakaj @AndrewBakaj | 8:45 AM · Oct 6, 2019
IC WHISTLEBLOWER UPDATE: I can confirm that my firm and my team represent multiple whistleblowers in connection to the underlying August 12, 2019, disclosure to the Intelligence Community Inspector General. No further comment at this time.

Quote Tweet GeorgeStephanopoulos @GStephanopoulos · 2h
BREAKING: Attorney representing whistleblower who sounded the alarm on Pres. Trump’s dealings with Ukraine tells ABC News he is now representing a second whistleblower who has first-hand knowledge of events. https://abcn.ws/30PZ4BF

--------------------------------------------------​

2nd whistleblower comes forward after speaking with IG: Attorney
james gordon meek and anne flaherty | Oct 6, 2019

Mark Zaid, the attorney representing the whistleblower who sounded the alarm on President Donald Trump's dealings with Ukraine and triggered an impeachment inquiry, tells ABC News that he is now representing a second whistleblower who has spoken with the inspector general.

Zaid tells ABC News' Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos that the second person -- also described as an intelligence official -- has first-hand knowledge of some of the allegations outlined in the original complaint and has been interviewed by the head of the intelligence community's internal watchdog office, Michael Atkinson.

The existence of a second whistleblower -- particularly one who can speak directly about events involving the president related to conversations involving Ukraine -- could undercut Trump's repeated insistence that the original complaint, released on Sept. 26, was "totally inaccurate."

...Zaid says both officials have full protection of the law intended to protect whistleblowers from being fired in retaliation. While this second official has spoken with the IG -- the internal watchdog office created to handle complaints -- this person has not communicated yet with the congressional committees conducting the investigation.

...Zaid’s co-counsel, Andrew Bakaj, confirmed in a tweet Sunday that the firm is representing "multiple whistleblowers." Zaid later confirmed in a tweet that two are being represented by their legal team...

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/2nd-whistleblower-forward-speaking-ig-attorney/s...

45fuzzi
Oct 6, 2019, 12:27pm

>41 lriley: I listen to anyone as long as they are upfront and honest about their beliefs.

Just by watching the video it's very apparent that Pie is a classic liberal. He wants to discuss, debate, not shut down others with whom he disagrees. Good for him. I'd chat with Pie any day over a cuppa Joe versus some who have the emotional maturity of a two-year old.

46lriley
Oct 6, 2019, 2:02pm

#45--Pie is opinionated and that's fine.....but I don't always agree with him all the time either. People are flawed and politicians being people are going to be all flawed too. I would never trust anyone determined to tell me how great they are.....and a lot of time what's debated about is equivalences but some things are just flat out wrong and shouldn't be given equal time. For instance ideas about exceptionalism. One's gender, race, religion, sexual preference does not signify superiority and should not privilege any special sort of status. That is not a critique of Pie--I don't think he believes in exceptionalism either but a lot do.....and they're flat out wrong.

47margd
Oct 7, 2019, 2:49am

As I recall:
Giuliani not paid by Trump, and Giuliani associates knew three months in advance that ambassador to Ukraine was to be recalled.

AP sources: Trump allies sought changes at Ukraine utility
DESMOND BUTLER, MICHAEL BIESECKER and RICHARD LARDNER10/7/2019

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — As Rudy Giuliani was pushing Ukrainian officials last spring to investigate one of Donald Trump’s main political rivals, a group of individuals with ties to the president and his personal lawyer...touted connections to Giuliani and Trump while trying to install new management at the top of Ukraine’s massive state gas company. Their plan was to then steer lucrative contracts to companies controlled by Trump allies, according to two people with knowledge of their plans.

...the effort to install a friendlier management team at the helm of the gas company, Naftogaz, would soon be taken up with Ukraine’s new president by U.S. Energy Secretary Rick Perry, whose slate of candidates included a fellow Texan who is one of Perry’s past political donors (after Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko lost his reelection bid to Volodymyr Zelenskiy)

...the affair shows how those with ties to Trump and his administration were pursuing business deals in Ukraine that went far beyond advancing the president’s personal political interests. It also raises questions about whether Trump allies were mixing business and politics just as Republicans were calling for a probe of Biden and his son Hunter, who served five years on the board of another Ukrainian energy company, Burisma.

On Friday, according to the news site Axios, Trump told a group of Republican lawmakers that it had been Perry who had prompted the phone call in which Trump asked Zelenskiy for a “favor” regarding Biden. Axios cited a source saying Trump said Perry had asked Trump to make the call to discuss “something about an LNG (liquefied natural gas) plant.”

.. Perry playing a key role in the effort (the attempts to influence Naftogaz, the multibillion-dollar state gas company)...

https://apnews.com/d7440cffba4940f5b85cd3dfa3500fb2

48proximity1
Edited: Oct 9, 2019, 5:42am

>45 fuzzi:

"I listen to anyone as long as they are (i.e. "anyone as long as he is" ) upfront and honest about their ( i.e. his) beliefs."

Exactly.

And, in just this, you are, as Tom Walker is, a world away from a woefully-large number of self-described "liberals." That these so-called liberals would fail to recognize what you point out—"it's very apparent that Pie is a classic liberal"—this speaks volumes about our times and about the self-described so-called liberals themselves. Unfortunately, what is very apparent to you or to me is not necessarily very apparent to others. This is one reason why Tom Walker's comedic work as "Jonanthan Pie" is so important.

We are again, though for different superficial reasons, in a period psychologically similar to one which the writer, Lillian Hellman, described in a work she entitled Scoundrel Time —the heyday of U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy, (R.-Wis.). I do not mean to compare Donald Trump to senator Joseph McCarthy. I mean to compare the mass-mania of the anti-Communist "Red Scare" in which McCarthy so trafficked with the idiocy of today's anti-Trump mass-mania.

49LolaWalser
Oct 7, 2019, 2:48pm

>45 fuzzi:

I'd chat with Pie any day over a cuppa Joe versus some who have the emotional maturity of a two-year old.

At what age do you place Trump's "emotional maturity"?

50lriley
Oct 7, 2019, 3:46pm

Today the Donald was going on (and this is verbatim from his twitter account) about his 'great and unmatched wisdom' just before he threatened to destroy Turkey's economy if they to his mind cross some unstated line in their belligerence towards the Kurds that fought alongside the US military against ISIS. The emotional maturity of that is less than zero--the grandiosity and narcissism through the roof. What sane person in their right mind talks like that?

51margd
Oct 8, 2019, 12:09pm

This will get worse for Trump. Adam Schiff signals what’s next.
Greg Sargent | Oct. 8, 2019

...Post-Schar School poll showing that 58 percent of Americans support the House’s impeachment inquiry, and 49 percent support outright removal...62 percent say Trump’s pressure on the Ukrainian president, the topic of the inquiry, was “inappropriate.”

...Trump directed a key witness — Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union — not to testify to Congress...Tuesday...about his role in a series of recently released text message exchanges that deeply incriminate the president...suggested a possible quid pro quo in which hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. military aid — which Trump froze just before talking to Zelensky on July 25 — were also conditioned on doing Trump’s political bidding.

Ambassador William “Bill” Taylor texted to Sondland that he objected to such a quid pro quo involving that military assistance. In one exchange, Sondland denied there was any quid pro quo before abruptly signing off. Schiff said...that Democrats want to ask Taylor about it.

...now that the White House has blocked Sondland from testifying...Schiff also hinted at where this all might end up going in another way: He told me that Democrats have not ruled out going to court to try to enforce subpoenas the White House has resisted, as some previous reporting had suggested.

As of now, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo still has not complied with the Democrats’ subpoena seeking a tranche of documents. Meanwhile, the White House is resisting another subpoena...full transcript of Trump’s call with Zelensky, a full list of White House staffers who were aware of the call or communicated about how to stash it on the super-secret computer system, and all communications and documents related to Trump’s decision to suspend the military aid.

..."I do not foreclose at all other efforts in parallel to make sure we fully find out all the facts, including court,” Schiff said. He noted that if the administration fought these efforts, “that will not delay us from going forward with articles of impeachment if they are warranted by the president’s obstruction...We need to protect the country...We need to expose whatever wrongdoing has gone on. That work is going to have to proceed.”

...“If it is necessary to go down the road of other articles of impeachment, then presumably there will be a trial in the Senate,” Schiff said. “I don’t think there’s a court in the land that will preclude the Congress from getting the evidence it needs at trial.”...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/10/08/this-will-get-worse-trump-ada...

52margd
Oct 8, 2019, 1:27pm

Chris Hayes @chrislhayes (MSNBC) | 9:56 AM · Oct 8, 2019:

I will note that all of these exchanges between State Department officials were on WhatsApp on their private devices
not on state department email. 🤔

53margd
Oct 8, 2019, 4:51pm

The House’s contempt powers explained
Scott Bomboy | May 7, 2019

...Based on precedent, statutes, and court rulings, the House and the Senate each have the power to invoke three types of contempt proceedings if a committee believes someone is obstructing its investigative powers.

The Congressional Research Service described each of these powers in a detailed March 2019 report. The first type of contempt power is a citation of criminal contempt of Congress...

...The second type of contempt power comes in the form of a civil lawsuit brought by the House or Senate, asking a court to enforce a subpoena.

...The third type of contempt power—Congress’s dormant inherent contempt power—is rarely used in modern times. Inherent contempt was the mode employed by Congress to directly enforce contempt rulings under its own constitutional authority until criminal and civil contempt statutes were passed, and it remained in use into the twentieth century. Under inherent contempt proceedings, the House or Senate has its Sergeant-At-Arms, or deputy, take a person into custody for proceedings to be held in Congress...

Although these powers are not directly stated in the Constitution, the Supreme Court has ruled on multiple occasions that they are implicit as an essential legislative power held by Congress...

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-houses-contempt-powers-explained


54margd
Edited: Oct 8, 2019, 6:22pm

George Conway @gtconway3d | 5:19 PM · Oct 8, 2019
It’s hard to count the number of ways that this letter is, constitutionally and legally, garbage.

Quote Tweet Ramsey Touchberry @ramsberry1 · 14m
.@SpeakerPelosi's office confirms she's received letter from WH outlining why the administration won't be cooperating with impeachment inquiry.

Below is the link to the 8-pg letter from WH Counsel Pat Cipollone.
https://documentcloud.org/documents/6459905-White-House-Letter-to-Pelosi-Impeach...

--------------------------------------------------​

George Conway @gtconway3d | 5:38 PM · Oct 8, 2019:
I cannot fathom how any self-respecting member of the bar could affix his name to this letter. It’s pure hackery, and it disgraces the profession.

Quote Tweet Neal Katyal @neal_katyal | · 55m
George is understating things. https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1181680625113321483

55margd
Edited: Oct 9, 2019, 6:47am

Democrats to subpoena Gordon Sondland, say Trump’s move to block deposition amounts to obstruction
Shane Harris and John Wagner | Oct. 8, 2019

The Trump administration on Tuesday blocked a planned deposition from Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union and a central figure in the Democrats’ impeachment inquiry.

Democrats called the administration’s move an act of obstruction and said they would issue a subpoena for Sondland’s testimony, as well as emails and text messages that Sondland held on a personal device and that have been turned over to the State Department, which has yet to release them.

In a trove of text messages that were turned over to the House by another former official, Sondland emerged as a central player in the Trump administration’s efforts to pressure Ukraine to launch investigations of the president’s political rivals.

...Sondland was scheduled to be deposed Tuesday morning , his lawyer, Robert Luskin, said in a statement.

...Sondland was willing to testify and didn’t appear on Tuesday at the direction of the State Department, Luskin said.

“As the sitting U.S. Ambassador to the E.U. and employee of the State Department, Ambassador Sondland is required to follow the Department’s direction,” Luskin said. “Ambassador Sondland is profoundly disappointed that he will not be able to testify today. Ambassador Sondland traveled to Washington from Brussels in order to prepare for his testimony and to be available to answer the Committee’s questions.”

The State Department left a voice-mail message with Sondland’s attorneys at 12:30 a.m. Tuesday, informing them that he would not be allowed to testify, the Democratic committee chairmen leading the impeachment inquiry said in a joint statement.

...Schiff said that the committee had been discussing Sondland’s deposition with the State Department’s legal adviser as recently as Monday evening and “there was no indication that the ambassador would be a no-show.”

Schiff said that Sondland, who remains a State Department employee, had turned over text messages and emails from a personal device to the department, communications that are “equally relevant to this investigation and the impeachment inquiry.”...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/gordon-sondland-key-us-official...

ETA_______________________________________________​

Pelosi Statement on Trump Administration Refusal to Comply with House Subpoenas
October 8, 2019
Press Release

...“Mr. President, you are not above the law. You will be held accountable.”

https://www.speaker.gov/newsroom/10819-0

ETA_______________________________________________​

House Democrats subpoena E.U. ambassador after State Department blocks testimony
Rebecca Shabad | Oct. 8, 2019

...Issued by House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff, D-Calif., in consultation with House Oversight Committee Chairman Elijah Cummings, D-Md., and House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Eliot Engel, D-N.Y., the subpoena called on Sondland to produce documents by Oct. 14.

A letter from the three chairmen accompanying the subpoena also called on the U.S. diplomat to appear for a deposition on Oct. 16 ...

The chairmen warned Sondland that if he fails or refuses to comply with the subpoena, "including at the direction or behest of the president, the White House or State Department," it would "constitute further evidence of obstruction of the House’s impeachment inquiry and may be used as an adverse inference against you and the president...Secretary Pompeo’s obstruction of the House’s impeachment inquiry does not alleviate you of your independent legal obligation to produce to the Committees any responsive documents in your personal possession, custody, or control...There is no valid basis to withhold documents from the Committees by relying on instructions from Secretary Pompeo, who is a fact witness in this inquiry and who is currently defying his own duly issued subpoena for documents — particularly if the Department’s goal is to block the Committees from gaining access to your documents prior to your testimony."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/house-democrats-subpoenas-eu-ambassado...

56fuzzi
Oct 8, 2019, 7:36pm

>49 LolaWalser: higher than the general population, especially those who have been melting down and having tantrums over his election and Presidency. 😁

57margd
Edited: Oct 9, 2019, 5:35am

DOJ: If Watergate Happened Today, We’d Block Evidence From Congress
Jeremy Stahl | Oct 08, 2019

...(in a hearing on the House Judiciary Committee’s request for Howell to issue an order commanding the DOJ to turn over the remaining redacted portions of the Mueller report along with critical underlying evidence) the Department of Justice sought to block the release...arguing that if Watergate happened today, it would be able to prevent the release of grand jury evidence to Congress and the public.

To keep the evidence from Congress, the Justice Department is seeking to overturn a critical Nixon-era case (the 1974 case Haldeman v. Sirica) that allowed the Watergate grand jury to turn over evidence to congressional investigators as part of an impeachment inquiry. The government’s “extraordinary position” made Chief Judge Beryl A. Howell of the District Court for the District of Columbia say, “Wow.”

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/doj-blocks-watergate-impeachment-evi...

--------------------------------------------------​

More detail on rest of the exchange at https://www.law.com/nationallawjournal/2019/10/08/wow-dc-judge-questions-dojs-ex...

e.g., (Judge) "Howell also question DOJ over whether foreign governments were given access to the grand jury material that the agency is fighting to not share with U.S. lawmakers."

58lriley
Oct 9, 2019, 7:20am

#57--more proof that the Trump administration think that they are above the law.

59margd
Oct 10, 2019, 3:22am

On Ukraine Aid, ‘Nothing to See Here’: Diplomats Urged to Play Down Funds’ Release
Lara Jakes | Oct. 9, 2019

...Messages obtained by The New York Times among U.S. diplomats discussed the aid to Ukraine....

“We realize the strain this puts on posts and your ability to conclude grants and carry out programs,” Jim Kulikowski, the State Department’s regional assistance coordinator, wrote in an Aug. 5 email.

“We currently await further guidance and will provide you with an update as soon as we know about next steps,” Mr. Kulikowski wrote in the message, which was sent to dozens of State Department employees, including diplomats in Kiev and in countries across Eastern Europe.

...A Ukrainian official has said Mr. Zelensky’s government did not learn of the funding delay until about a month later (after July 25 phone call?). The White House has said the review merely sought to ensure the money was properly spent.

But the freeze irritated diplomats who questioned whether it was tied to Mr. Trump’s demands for Ukraine to investigate two politically fraught allegations: a widely debunked conspiracy theory about election tampering in 2016 and corruption at an energy company that employed the younger son of former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. There is no evidence that the Bidens were involved in wrongdoing.

...Officials were informed that the freeze had been reversed — and the $141 million in foreign military financing would be released — in a Sept. 12 email from the White House that was then sent around the State Department.

“Apparently, and I don’t have full visibility, decision made last night,” Mr. Kulikowski wrote.

(Brad Freden, the State Department’s acting deputy assistant secretary overseeing issues in Europe and Eurasia) said the Ukrainian government had already been told that the funds were forthcoming. But he urged State Department employees not to announce the reversal.

“Ukrainians are aware, but N.S.C. said that in the spirit of the ‘hold’ being a normal review, there will be no public announcement that it has been lifted,” he wrote, referring to the president’s National Security Council.

...“I will inform President Zelensky as soon as he is out of a meeting,” (William B. Taylor Jr., the top American envoy in Kiev) wrote to Mr. Freden. “We then intend to make it public here.”

Mr. Freden responded in minutes. “In terms of public messaging, N.S.C. is deliberately treating both the hold and its lifting as administrative matters,” he wrote. “My advice is to keep your public messaging low-key as well.”

“Good advice — thanks,” Mr. Taylor emailed back...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/world/europe/ukraine-trump.html

60proximity1
Oct 10, 2019, 4:21am

61margd
Edited: Oct 10, 2019, 11:20am

Songbirds in the making?

Two business associates of Trump’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani have been arrested and are in custody
Washington Post Staff | Oct. 10, 2019

The two men, who helped Giuliani investigate former vice president Joe Biden, were charged with campaign finance violations...Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman have been under investigation by the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Manhattan.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2019/10/10/two-business-associat...

--------------------------------------------------​

Giuliani Associates Indicted on Campaign Finance Charges
Quinta Jurecic | October 10, 2019

Lev Parnas, Igor Fruman, David Correia and Andrey Kukushkin have been indicted by a grand jury in the Southern District of New York on campaign finance charges. Parnas and Fruman have been reported to have worked with Rudy Giuliani on his efforts in Ukraine. The (21 p Grand Jury) indictment is available here and below...

https://www.lawfareblog.com/giuliani-associates-indicted-campaign-finance-charge...

--------------------------------------------------​

Arieh Kovler @ariehkovler| ·48m
🚨 Parnas indictment: Parnas lobbied for the removal of the US Ambassador to Ukraine. Which links in nicely with the Trump call and the whistleblower complaint. 🚨

Image https://twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/1182302456098820101/photo/1

62proximity1
Edited: Oct 10, 2019, 12:14pm

First, as a test, read the following with no resort to other or further clarifying information--alright? Why? Because the challenge here points up the strange circumstances which are, themselves, the point of this exercise; here's your information and read and judge it on nothing other than this:


..."were attacked for not following proper procedure in revealing their information to the public; attacking the method of disclosure while ignoring the misconduct revealed by that disclosure is typically the approach of those implicated in ...."


Here's your challenge: reading the citation above, first discern what you can say you know about or from it.

In this, I'll provide this summary:

We know, taking the text at face-value for the purposes of this example, that someone has disclosed something. We know further that whoever this was, the method(s) used in the making the disclosure are being denounced and, this, independently of the validity of the details which are the content of the disclosure, which is characterized as "misconduct."

That done, your challenge is to discern, first, which partisans, "pro-" or "anti-" Trump, are they whose choice of method of disclosure is being denounced here?

Secondly, what "exactly was disclosed,"? how? and why?

My hunch here is simple: you neither know nor can know, based on only the information provided, how to correctly answer those queries and the reason for that is also simple: Trump's adversaries have done— and they continue to do —the very things which they, outraged, denounce him, Trump, or his associates, for doing.

If this wasn't the case, then you could and should be able to very dependably explain without looking further or having any additional data who is the person or are the people involved and the things he or they disclosed which elicited the cited comment.

If you say otherwise, tell us the correct answers--unaided.

__________________________________

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Okay, then, Never-Trump-ers

If you didn't cheat (LOL!) and you're ready to cry, "Uncle!", then you're now authorized to review, first, the material at this link and then read the essay at this link.

63margd
Oct 10, 2019, 12:09pm

>54 margd: 8-pg letter from WH Counsel Pat Cipollone, contd.

White House Letter Distorts Both Law and History on Impeachment
Frank O. Bowman, III | October 10, 2019

The White House letter of October 8 refusing all executive branch cooperation with the ongoing House impeachment inquiry is, simply put, a public relations exercise. The legal arguments it intersperses between insults to members of the House Democratic leadership and appeals to the President’s base voters are without foundation. The errors and mischaracterizations are so numerous that they cannot all be addressed in this space. Instead, I will consider only the fundamental misconceptions at the heart of the White House argument, as well as a single illustrative historical incident – the impeachment proceedings against President Andrew Johnson.

https://www.justsecurity.org/66534/white-house-letter-distorts-both-law-and-hist...

64margd
Oct 10, 2019, 12:54pm

White House Shifted Authority Over Ukraine Aid (and other foreign aid and defense accounts) Amid Legal Concerns
Andrew Duehren and Gordon Lubold | Oct. 10, 2019

...President Trump’s order to freeze nearly $400 million in aid to Ukraine in mid-July is at the center of House Democratic efforts to investigate allegations that Mr. Trump used U.S. foreign-policy powers to benefit himself politically. The hold came days before Mr. Trump’s request, on a July 25 call, that the Ukrainian president work with Rudy Giuliani and Attorney General William Barr to conduct investigations into presidential hopeful Joe Biden.

...The president has the authority to delay the release of money in certain instances, according to the Congressional Research Service, a nonpartisan research agency, including if there has been an unexpected change in circumstances for the program. But without being provided explanation or justification about why the administration was delaying the aid, some career officials at the Office of Management and Budget became worried they didn’t have the legal authority to hold up the funds...

...While career civil servants put an initial hold on the aid, Michael Duffey, (political appointee) associate director of national security programs in OMB, was given the authority for continuing to keep the aid on hold after the career staff began raising their concerns to political officials at OMB... Mr. Duffey also began overseeing the process for approving and releasing funds, called apportionment, for other foreign aid and defense accounts, according to a public document indicating the change.

...The involvement of a political official like Mr. Duffey in the apportionment process is unusual, according to several former OMB officials. Career staff below the political level at OMB with years, and sometimes decades, of technical knowledge of the funding process have historically overseen the routine process, according to the former officials. Career staff remain involved in preparing the apportionments, while Mr. Duffey now reviews and signs off on them...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/white-house-shifted-authority-over-ukraine-aid-amid...

65margd
Edited: Oct 10, 2019, 4:11pm

Chris Murphy @ChrisMurphyCT (US Senator) | 11:22 AM · Oct 10, 2019:
Let’s be clear about what just happened.

The two Russian born ringleaders of the Ukraine scandal just got arrested for making hundreds of thousands of dollars of illegal contributions to Trump’s re-election.

FYI
None
of
this
is
on
the level
__________________________________________________​

REVEALED: Rudy Giuliani’s indicted Ukraine henchman gave thousands to Kevin McCarthy
Brad Reed | October 10, 2019

Lev Parnas, the foreign-born businessman who was indicted this week on campaign-finance charges, donated thousands of dollars ($2700) last year to House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-CA).

Other filings made with the Federal Elections Commission show that Parnas donated that exact same amount to Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX), who on Thursday was implicated in an indictment of Parnas and his business partner, Igor Fruman...

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/10/revealed-rudy-giulianis-indicted-ukraine-henchm...

--------------------------------------------------​--------------------------------------------------​

https://twitter.com/mmcauliff/status/1182316973276971009/photo/1

https://docquery.fec.gov/cgi-bin/fecimg/?201807149115467756

__________________________________________________​

Prosecutors also allege the men enlisted a U.S. congressman (Pete Sessions?) to seek the ouster of the then-U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, who was prematurely recalled from her post earlier this year.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/two-giuliani-associates-who-helped-him-with-ukraine...

__________________________________________________​

U.S. Attorney Geoffrey Berman held a press conference to outline the indictment of the two men, and intriguingly, he mentioned that Parnas and Fruman were arrested at Washington Dulles International Airport “as they were about to board an international flight with one-way tickets.”

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/sdny-attorney-giulianis-indicted-allies-were-arreste...

__________________________________________________​

Rebecca Ballhaus @rebeccaballhaus (WSJ) · 2h
Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman had lunch with Rudy Giuliani at the Trump hotel in Washington YESTERDAY, a source who saw them tells @nataliewsj. They were arrested later that night at Dulles, where they were awaiting an international flight.

WSJ News Exclusive | Two Foreign-Born Men Who Helped Giuliani on Ukraine Arrested on Campaign-Fin...
Two foreign-born donors to a pro-Trump fundraising committee who helped Rudy Giuliani’s efforts to investigate Democrat Joe Biden were arrested late Wednesday on criminal charges of violating...
wsj.com

66proximity1
Edited: Oct 11, 2019, 10:05am


(From The Wall Street Journal )



(Alexander) Hamilton Wouldn't Impeach Trump | by Alan M. Dershowitz | 10 October 2019



___________________


Politics | Ukraine Whistle-blower May Not Testify In Person Lawmakers are awaiting an appearance Friday by the former Ukraine ambassador
| By Dustin Volz and Warren P. Strobel | Updated Oct. 10, 2019 6:55 pm ET


“WASHINGTON—Lawyers for the CIA officer whose whistle-blower complaint helped ignite an impeachment inquiry into President Trump have asked Congress whether their client could submit testimony in writing instead of appearing in person, according to people familiar with the matter.

“The request reflects concerns about whether the whistle-blower could testify to Democrats and Republicans without revealing his identity, and fears that doing so would lead to it being publicly leaked, jeopardizing his personal safety. The intelligence committees haven't yet responded to the inquiry about potential written testimony, the people said.”




________________________________



The 6th Amendment's Confrontation Clause

and

https://law.justia.com/constitution/us/amendment-06/10-confrontation.html

67lriley
Oct 11, 2019, 12:08pm

Yovanovitch apparently defying the Trump administration and testifying to congress.

68margd
Oct 11, 2019, 12:50pm

Trump Had Marie Yovanovitch Removed on ‘False Claims,’ She Tells House Inquiry
Sharon LaFraniere and Nicholas Fandos | Oct. 11, 2019

...Ms. Yovanovitch’s searing account, delivered at the risk of losing her job, could lend new momentum to the impeachment inquiry that imperils Mr. Trump. She said undermining loyal diplomats would embolden “bad actors” who will “see how easy it is to use fiction and innuendo to manipulate our system” and serve the interests of adversaries, including Russia.

“Today we see the State Department attacked and hollowed out from within,” she said. She said the allegations that she was disloyal to Mr. Trump, circulated by allies of Rudolph W. Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer, were totally “fictitious.”

“I do not know Mr. Giuliani’s motives for attacking me,” she said. But people associated with Mr. Giuliani “may well have believed that their personal financial ambitions were stymied by our anti-corruption policy in Ukraine,” she said.

The status of the documents and witness testimony being collected by congressional investigators.

Her opening statement revealed no new details about Mr. Trump’s effort to pressure Volodymyr Zelensky, the new president of Ukraine, to investigate Hunter Biden, the son of Joseph R. Biden Jr. It also offered no details about Lev Parnas or Igor Fruman, two businessmen who helped Mr. Giuliani mount a campaign for her removal. Both were arrested late Wednesday on charges of campaign finance violations. The indictment charged that they were working for one or more Ukrainian officials who wanted her out of Kiev.

But she provided new details about her abrupt ouster from Kiev. Less than two months after the State Department asked her to extend her tour as ambassador until 2020, she said, she was abruptly told to return to Washington “on the next plane.”

She said that John Sullivan, the deputy secretary of state, told her later that she had “done nothing wrong and that this was not like other situations where he had recalled ambassadors for cause.”

He said that Mr. Trump had “lost confidence in me and no longer wished me to serve as his ambassador,” she said, and that there had been “a concerted campaign against me, and that the department had been under pressure from the president to remove me since the summer of 2018.”

She said that she had never inhibited any legitimate efforts by Ukraine to combat corruption and was not involved in discussions about the suspension of $391 million in American security aid to Ukraine this summer. And she said that she viewed the present circumstances as a tragedy not just for American diplomacy but Ukraine’s attempts to reform its government and defend against a hostile Russia.

“That harm will come not just through the inevitable and continuing resignation and loss of many of this nation’s most loyal and talented public servants,” she said, according to the prepared remarks. “It also will come when those diplomats who soldier on and do their best to represent our nation face partners abroad who question whether the ambassador truly speaks for the president and can be counted upon as a reliable partner. The harm will come when private interests circumvent professional diplomats for their own gain, not the public good.”...

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1182689687116406784

69margd
Oct 11, 2019, 1:04pm

Yovanovitch: exhibit A on why loosening Civil Service protections, especially by this Administration, is a bad idea. Whistleblower is exhibit B. I've seen others in past administrations... We have until Oct 17 to comment:

Probation on Initial Appointment to a Competitive Position, Performance-Based Reduction in Grade and Removal Actions and Adverse Actions
A Proposed Rule by the Personnel Management Office on 09/17/2019
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/09/17/2019-19636/probation-on-ini...

Trump Had Marie Yovanovitch Removed on ‘False Claims,’ She Tells House Inquiry
Sharon LaFraniere and Nicholas Fandos | Oct. 11, 2019

Ambassador Marie L. Yovanovitch was recalled from Ukraine, she told impeachment investigators on Friday, despite a boss saying she had “done nothing wrong.”

...allegations that she was disloyal to Mr. Trump, circulated by allies of Rudolph W. Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer...people associated with Mr. Giuliani “may well have believed that their personal financial ambitions were stymied by our anti-corruption policy in Ukraine...“a concerted campaign against me, and that the department had been under pressure from the president to remove me since the summer of 2018.”

...she viewed the present circumstances as a tragedy not just for American diplomacy but Ukraine’s attempts to reform its government and defend against a hostile Russia.

“...harm will come not just through the inevitable and continuing resignation and loss of many of this nation’s most loyal and talented public servants...It also will come when those diplomats who soldier on and do their best to represent our nation face partners abroad who question whether the ambassador truly speaks for the president and can be counted upon as a reliable partner. The harm will come when private interests circumvent professional diplomats for their own gain, not the public good.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/11/us/politics/marie-yovanovitch-ukraine.html

70margd
Edited: Oct 12, 2019, 3:33am

Jonathan Allen @jonallendc | 10:02 PM · Oct 11, 2019:
This is the president’s lawyer saying the president directed him to engage in the scheme at the heart of the impeachment.
Just to be clear.

Giuliani Is Said to Be Under Investigation for Ukraine Work
Michael S. Schmidt, Ben Protess, Kenneth P. Vogel and William K. Rashbaum | Oct. 11, 2019

...Mr. Giuliani said that federal prosecutors had no grounds to charge him with foreign lobbying disclosure violations because he said he was acting on behalf of Mr. Trump, not the Ukrainian prosecutor, Yuriy Lutsenko, when he collected the information on Ms. Yovanovitch and the others and relayed it to the American government and the news media...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/11/us/politics/rudy-giuliani-investigation.html

__________________________________________________​

Who's under the bus?

Jennifer Jacobs @JenniferJJacobs | 5:00 PM · Oct 11, 2019
Asked if Rudy Giuliani is still his personal attorney, Trump at WH departure said he doesn’t know.

via @josh_wingrove

71lriley
Oct 12, 2019, 8:40am

So to be clear a career professional in the State Dept. who has worked her way up the ladder through service, diligence and hard work and who has 33 years now in the State Dept. loses her job because the President's personal attorney (acting as a shadow State Dept. minister and unconfirmed by the congress) and a couple of his mafiosi friends see her as a roadblock to their nefarious plans to 1) cash in on Ukranian corruption in the oil/gas markets and 2) to find dirt on one of Trump's political opponents......and in the meantime they wanted to block her from speaking on her own behalf thus not only to deny her the right to defend not only herself but the State Dept. as a whole.

It's par for the course for this not only corrupt but clumsy and incompetent Trump administration. They can't help breaking some kind of law practically every day and they also can't help being caught out time and again.

72proximity1
Edited: Oct 13, 2019, 5:14am

Arsonists, trying four times to burn a building down—and failing each time—finally desperate, denounce as "arsonists" the vigils who had repeatedly put the fires out which they'd set.

73margd
Oct 12, 2019, 2:04pm

Trump’s Favorite Impeachment Lawyer Is ...Trump Himself
Sam Stein | 10.12.19

On Tuesday, the Office of the White House Counsel delivered an eight-page letter to Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) rejecting the very legitimacy of the impeachment inquiry threatening this presidency.

The letter was notable not for the conclusion it reached—few suspected that the administration was going to cooperate with House Democrats—but for the broadsides and rhetorical flourishes it featured. That’s because this letter wasn’t fully written by lawyers.

It was crafted, in large part, by President Donald Trump himself...

...Trump had also privately consulted on the letter with Rudy Giuliani...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-favorite-impeachment-lawyer-is-trump-himsel...

74proximity1
Oct 13, 2019, 5:24am

>73 margd:

(a paraphrase)


"I don't know that I'm interested in paying my lawyer to tell me what I may not do."


-- said by one of the ultra-rich robber-baron set of the late 19th century U.S. and cited in Matthew Josephson, The Robber Barons

75margd
Oct 13, 2019, 8:11am

>53 margd: continued. (inherent contempt)

Tlaib says Democrats have discussed detaining White House officials who don't testify
John Bowden - 10/12/19

Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) revealed in a new interview that House Democrats have discussed jailing allies of the president who do not comply with congressional subpoenas, an escalation of the House's efforts to force White House compliance with an impeachment inquiry.

Tlaib told Deadline Detroit that such an action, known as inherent contempt, would be "uncharted territory" for Congress but added that "serious discussions" about taking the step have occurred within the Democratic caucus...

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/465551-tlaib-says-democrats-have-discussed-de...

76davidgn
Oct 13, 2019, 4:26pm

At the risk of pleasing people of ideological slants I generally do not enjoy pleasing-- Taibbi's latest, wherein spades are called spades.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/were-in-a-permanent-coup

77proximity1
Edited: Oct 16, 2019, 4:00am

>76s

And how!

You beat me to the putsch this time.

Taibbi's essay is brilliant.

Unfortunately, since so big a part of the reasons Americans find themselves up this shit-creek is due to the simple fact that so many of them are too damned lazy to read, inform themselves and then think clearly, I'm posting the following except from Taibbi's article which your post links:



...

"We have long been spared this madness in America. Our head-counting ceremony was Election Day. We did it once every four years.

"That’s all over, in the Trump era.

"On Thursday, news broke that two businessmen said to have 'peddled supposedly explosive information about corruption involving Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden' were arrested at Dulles airport on 'campaign finance violations.' The two figures are alleged to be bagmen bearing 'dirt' on Democrats, solicited by Trump and his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani.

"Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman will be asked to give depositions to impeachment investigators. They’re reportedly going to refuse. Their lawyer John Dowd also says they will 'refuse to appear before House Committees investigating President Donald Trump.' Fruman and Parnas meanwhile claim they had real derogatory information about Biden and other politicians, but 'the U.S. government had shown little interest in receiving it through official channels.'

"For Americans not familiar with the language of the Third World, that’s two contrasting denials of political legitimacy.

"The men who are the proxies for Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani in this story are asserting that “official channels” have been corrupted. The forces backing impeachment, meanwhile, are telling us those same defendants are obstructing a lawful impeachment inquiry.

"This latest incident, set against the impeachment mania and the reportedly 'expanding' Russiagate investigation of U.S. Attorney John Durham, accelerates our timeline to chaos. We are speeding toward a situation when someone in one of these camps refuses to obey a major decree, arrest order, or court decision, at which point Americans will get to experience the joys of their political futures being decided by phone calls to generals and police chiefs.

"My discomfort in the last few years, first with Russiagate and now with Ukrainegate and impeachment, stems from the belief that the people pushing hardest for Trump’s early removal are more dangerous than Trump. Many Americans don’t see this because they’re not used to waking up in a country where you’re not sure who the president will be by nightfall. They don’t understand that this predicament is worse than having a bad president." ...

...



To repeat, these circumstances are NOT the "constitutional 'crisis' " Trump's opponents describe them to be. There was an election, the Trump campaign won it as fairly and squarely as our political system's terms allow, and that election's results were denied, rejected, refused--adamantly and subbornly--by the very people who, only weeks before election-day, had demanded that candidate Trump make a solemn public declaration that he'd respect, accept and abide by the result of the balloting.

It's not that the constitution is failing us. It's that many Americans are failing their civic responsibilities to the constitution, to themselves, and to their fellow-citizens.

That's the kind of problem which the constitution cannot remedy. No constitution can. The last time we had this degree of such a disgraceful failure to respect the constitutional order was around about 1860--and the failures led the nation to the only place remaining when the resort to the ballot-box is denied and refused. It led to the battlefield and to open war.



(Again, citing Taibbi's article)

...

" In enormous numbers, voters rejected everything they had ever been told about who was and was not qualified for higher office. "

... (emphasis is added)


Because, you see, their right to do that-- to decide that way and for reasons which are sound in their judgment-- is the central point and principle of any democratically-based system.

If an electorate is simply disallowed, preëmptorily barred, from even having that choice open to them at all, then that is the end right there of any kind of meaningful participatory government--one under which official government is ultimately answerable to a regularly-intervening electorate. A failing in this, an absence of this, for any semblance of democratic governance, spells "Game Over."

(Again, citing Taibbi's article)

...


"Why (ought Trump) give up the White House and wait to be arrested, when he still has theoretical authority to send Special Forces troops rappelling through the windows of every last Russiagate/Ukrainegate leaker?"


... (emphasis is added)


Well, because, for starters, unlike his hell-bent-for-impeachment opponents, Trump, as a candidate for high office as well as president, has not sought to subvert the regular working of the Constitutional order and, when it comes to actual evidence, we have none at all that indicates that Trump would fail to abide by the legal limits on his terms of service in office as president of the United States.

We so far have no reason at all to suspect that Trump would either do or allow what outgoing president Barack Obama apparently knowingly allowed: a deliberately hatched plot, a scheme, on the part of both partisan officials and intelligence agency directorships, by which candidate and then president-elect Donald Trump was made the central target of a set-up, a fabricated project to frame him as illegitimately elected and one who is attemtpting to derail what became, in both form as well as in fact, a coup d'état under color of law.

_______________________________________

Smug and self-deluded, pseudo-Leftist 'liberals' of our time take offense at everything and responsibility for nothing.

So, what has really happened in the U.S. body politic?

I put it this way : In the biggest real-world, real-time test of the general public's grasp of and attachment to the most essential functions and features of a democratically-based political order (however beaten and broken), since the "Watergate" scandal* of the Nixon administrations, a very large part of the adult American public is in flagrant default.

Unfortunately, a situation such as this can be worse, much worse, than some garden-variety "Constitutional crisis." A constitutional crisis is something susceptible to remedy by putting back in order a missing or defective aspect of the constitution's provisions. That can be done by legislation, a constitutional amendment or by a supreme court ruling which restores a former proper working balance when it has been lost or corrupted.

In the present case, the defect is in a large part of the adult U.S. public's understanding of what is essential about a democratically-based political order and the principles which underpin it and what must be done to dependably defend them when they are under threat.

One of the first and worst of the failings is this public's failure to avoid confusing others' defense of democratic principles by which the institutions and the processes of democratic governance are practiced with what they dismiss as a purely partisan defense of Trump, the person, as opposed to Trump, the current duly-elected president of the United States. They're failing to make that distinction for what I fear may be a simple fact: they do not believe in making any such distinction. They don't distinguish their own partisan biases from what, to them, is "defending 'democracy'". They're blind, then, to the fact that they themselves are currently the largest and most conspicuous obstacle to preserving an even semi-healthy democratic order.

They're refusing to respect and abide by the 2016 election outcomes. They're perverting democratic principles and constitutional provisions in their zeal to "get the president" one way or another, and effectively disable and remove him and his legal second, the vice-president, at any cost to honesty, to facts and to the truthful respect for law.

The "Watergate" scandal was an example of the executive branch of government going off the rails in attempts to corrupt and abuse democratic principles and procedures used by institutions of government. But there was nothing special about the locus of this scandal. It merely happened that in these circumstances, the malfeasance was in and by the highest officials of the executive branch. The same kinds of things could be undertaken by members of the legislative branch--that is, the Congress. And that, in sum, is what is and has been happening.

Where, before, in the Watergate scandal, we had as principal actors President Richard Nixon and his top White House staff—John Ehrlichman ( Nixon's one time White House legal counsel and later advisor as Assistant to the President for domestic affairs) and H. R. "Bob" Haldeman, (White House chief of staff), the Attorney General, John Mitchell, Charles "Chuck" Colson, Ehrlichman's successor as White House legal counsel, and John Dean, who in turn succeeded Colson as White House legal counsel—now the key perpetrators of a scandalous abuse of power operate from the Congress: the Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi; along with former Senator ( D.-N.Y.) and former Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, members of Clinton's presidential-campaign executive staff; Congressman Adam Schiff (D.- Calif.) and former F.B.I. and intelligence agency or Department of Justice directors active during the Obama administrations, these, aided and abetted by a virulently partisan press corps which includes, as main actors, CNN, NBC, ABC, MS-NBC, The Washington Post, The New York Times. These individuals and news organizations have repeatedly been caught up in some of the most outrageous failures of official or of journalistic practice since the days of Wisconsin U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy's "Red-baiting" of the 1950s.

Many of them are themselves implicated in conspiratorial acts of the very sort they accuse President Trump of having committed, acts which constitute potential felonies under U.S. law.

In case you wonder: 'how can we get out of this mess?' I have some thoughts on that question.

First, there's the lazy, do-nothing-differently way out. This is what I regard as the 'default' way out. By that manner, we learn nothing, take no lessons, take no pains to change our ways, we just carry on as we're now doing. This will eventually lead in any one of a variety of manners and methods more or less rapidly to our civil society tearing itself apart politically until, unless it is stopped somewhere, somehow, before then, there comes the effective end of anything we'd be pleased to call a desirable political order of a semi-democratic or other kind or to other nightmarish alternatives which are far worse because they bear no resemblance to free society as these have been considered to be over centuries.

The result should be political ruins for the people who live through and produce it and for what's likely to be some indeterminate number of generations which follow—assuming there are any of those. But this is the 'easiest' way out because it allows everyone to give up hope and accept as inevitable that there's no mutually-desirable political future for the country or, if there is one, we can neither picture it nor plot any course to get there deliberately: it's out there somewhere beyond both our abilities to imagine it and on the far side of a general political collapse and catastrophe in the meantime. If one day the American people get there, it shall have been by the accident of dumb luck.

Another way, a second way, is to try to adopt changes in our behaviors toward each other. This would require a lot of what we currently show little or no patience or capacity to produce: reasonable and workable compromise which accepts that, among other things, a mutual acceptance—by both the nominal “winners” and “losers” of electoral ballot-counting in generally basically fair elections is something that, though occasionally disappointing, is still better than the route to general social disintegration and destruction. Thus, among what amounts to nearly half the present adult population, there'd be required some real work in political maturity. In other words, a heck of lot of petty-minded malcontents currently out for Trump' scalp would have to grow the fuck up a bit, make an about-face and accept the election results of the 2016 presidential election on the understanding that this is a close to a sacred feature of democratic survival as it is possible to find and that, the compromise one set makes today shall eventually be reciprocated by others in the future when these find themselves on the losing side of the electoral outcome.

This constitutes a rather large challenge. There is very little reason to suppose that the selfish system-destroyers who are currently bent on getting President Trump's scalp as a political trophy would stand around doing nothing as the other parts of the general public come to see their own political salvation in a mature recognition of the fact that the Democratic party lost the last presidential election and that, for the good of the nation both now and for generations to come, the losing party is going to make its peace with the result and look ahead to elections of 2020 and beyond—because the value of saving the republic outweighs what some calculate to be their potential gains by wrecking it.

Is this understanding just too great a challenge for the adult American public? Is there, in this woefully infantilized society, that much in maturity left to be mustered?

Or is it too late? Have we already gone too far now to avert even greater hardship and eventual political ruin and destruction by sticking to a disaster-course we're now on?

Fuck us if we don't shake ourselves, sit up, look around at what we're doing and make a mighty effort to do something better than carry on to our mutual self-destructions.
__________________________

* Caveat: Numerous of those former Nixon-White-House operatives interviewed in the above-linked PBS program, "Watergate Plus 30" (years)) are basically presenting their past parts in a re-telling which puts their former acts in a less-sinister-looking aspect than was actually the case at the time.

78John5918
Oct 14, 2019, 7:50am

>77 proximity1:

You (and the right wing generally) are putting a lot of effort into reinforcing the narrative that the "election's results were denied, rejected, refused--adamantly and subbornly--by the very people who, only weeks before election-day, had demanded that candidate Trump make a solemn public declaration that he'd respect, accept and abide by the result of the balloting". But they weren't denied. He became president and formed a government. Now a constitutional process of impeachment is underway not because the election result is being denied but because of his behaviour since becoming president. While you may or may not agree that his behaviour warrants impeachment, that decision will be made by those who are constitutionally mandated to decide, based on evidence presented, not based on denying his election.

79fuzzi
Oct 14, 2019, 12:49pm

>77 proximity1: "...Unfortunately, since so big a part of the reasons Americans find themselves up this shit-creek is due to the simple fact that so many of them are too damned lazy to read, inform themselves and then think clearly..."

Strange, isn't it, that this needs to be pointed out at a site that purports to be all about books and reading?

People are ignorant because they choose to be ignorant. Information from a world of sources is at one's fingers but people still embrace and absorb what they are told to believe through the 20th century passive process of watching television "news".

80John5918
Oct 14, 2019, 12:54pm

>79 fuzzi: people still embrace and absorb what they are told to believe through the 20th century passive process of watching television "news".

Do you think that is still true? There appears to be a lot of evidence that people are now getting their information from social media rather than from traditional news media, and social media of course is a lot less reliable and a lot more selective than the traditional media.

81lriley
Oct 14, 2019, 8:43pm

#79--If the political discourse here bothers you so much this particular group FWIW is for pretty much discussing the political. But there are plenty of other groups here if you want to discuss books such as the Reading Globally group....but literally there are thousands of choices here it would seem to discuss whatever kind of reading matter you most prefer. It's not hard to join or even not to join and just engage.

82margd
Edited: Oct 27, 2019, 6:42am

Bolton Objected to Ukraine Pressure Campaign, Calling Giuliani ‘a Hand Grenade’
Peter Baker and Nicholas Fandos | Oct. 14, 2019

... John R. Bolton, then the national security adviser,...got into a tense exchange on July 10 with Gordon D. Sondland, the Trump donor turned ambassador to the European Union, who was working with Rudolph W. Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer, to press Ukraine to investigate Democrats, according to three people who heard the testimony.

...aide, Fiona Hill, testified that Mr. Bolton told her to notify the chief lawyer for the National Security Council about a rogue effort by Mr. Sondland, Mr. Giuliani and Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff...“I am not part of whatever drug deal Sondland and Mulvaney are cooking up,” Mr. Bolton, a Yale-trained lawyer, told Ms. Hill to tell White House lawyers, according to two people at the deposition. (Another person in the room initially said Mr. Bolton referred to Mr. Giuliani and Mr. Mulvaney, but two others said he cited Mr. Sondland.)

...“Giuliani’s a hand grenade who’s going to blow everybody up,” Ms. Hill quoted Mr. Bolton as saying during an earlier conversation.

The testimony revealed in a powerful way just how divisive Mr. Giuliani’s efforts to extract damaging information about Democrats from Ukraine on President Trump’s behalf were within the White House. Ms. Hill, the senior director for Russian and Eurasian affairs, testified that Mr. Giuliani and his allies circumvented the usual national security process to run their own rump foreign policy, leaving the president’s official advisers aware of the rogue operation yet powerless to stop it.

...Mr. Sondland, who had inserted himself into dealings with Ukraine even though it was not part of his official portfolio, ...told her that he was in charge of Ukraine...According to whom, she asked. The president, he answered...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/14/us/politics/bolton-giuliani-fiona-hill-testim...

ETA_______________________________________________​

Bolton looms large as impeachment inquiry accelerates
Laura Kelly - 10/26/19

...Bolton is a staunch conservative who views the president’s powers as expansive and has defended preemptive military strikes. But it’s unclear whether any testimony from him would defend Trump’s actions as an extension of executive powers or if he would paint those actions as an abuse of power that’s damaging to the rule of law and order.

“He’s not a friendly guy, but he does know right from wrong,” one former colleague said of Bolton. “He’s been around the national security scene for a long time. He knows what’s appropriate and what isn’t.”

Bolton has so far made known he’s no personal friend of the president. His last public statement, posted on Twitter, was a swift rebuke of Trump’s characterization that he had “fired” Bolton.

...Shortly after leaving the White House, Bolton was described as disparaging the president at a private event in New York. Attendees recalled Bolton did not have “anything positive to say about Trump,” and criticized the president’s policy on Iran, North Korea and Afghanistan.

He also called Trump’s plan to invite the Taliban to Camp David on the 9/11 anniversary “disrespectful.”

...Bolton is regarded as extremely disciplined in his work ethic, having an almost photographic memory and encyclopedic knowledge of world affairs. Should he testify, he’s likely to provide detailed and even colorful testimony.

...after a July meeting...(in which) Sondland connect(ed) a future Oval Office visit by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky with “investigations” – referring to the conspiracy theories surrounding the Bidens and 2016 election interference. Stay away from domestic politics, Bolton told NSC staffers, directing them to the lawyers, according to testimony.

...Bolton has yet to give any media interviews since leaving the White House but has reportedly signed a deal to publish a tell-all book...

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/467547-bolton-looms-large-as-impeac...

832wonderY
Edited: Oct 15, 2019, 2:35pm

Matt Gaetz is, of course, a fair and non-partisan truth-seeker:

"Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler claimed to have begun the impeachment inquiry weeks ago,” Gaetz tweeted. “Now, his own Judiciary members aren’t even allowed to participate in it. And yes - my constituents want me actively involved in stopping the #KangarooCourtCoup run by Shifty Schiff."

'Gaetz-crasher': Here's why a Republican lawmaker was barred from closed-door testimony

Esquire comments

Matt Gaetz Thinks His Audience Is as Big a Box of Rocks as He Is

(oh well, let's quote the whole thing)

Is Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Breathalyzer) the biggest schmuck currently gracing the halls of Congress?

Opinions vary. But not by much.

On Monday morning, Fiona Hill, the administration*'s former Russia expert, came to Capitol Hill to testify in closed session to the House Oversight and Intelligence Committees regarding the president*'s attempt at running a protection racket on Ukraine. Gaetz is a member of neither committee, but he showed up anyway, obviously as a mole on behalf of Camp Runamuck. Acting perfectly within the rules of the House, the committees threw his truckling ass out. Gaetz immediately found a bank of microphones in front of which to drive the nails into his own palms.

"It's not like I'm on the Agriculture Committee," Gaetz moped. Good thing, too, since he apparently could be outsmarted by produce.

You may recall that it was Gaetz who Tweeted out what could only be interpreted as a threat toward Michael Cohen before the latter testified to the Judiciary Committee. That episode was referred to the Florida Bar Association in a complaint that charged Gaetz with with witness tampering. The Florida Bar cleared Gaetz because, well, Florida, but it did hurl a handful of uncomplimentary adjectives at him. It's important to remember that any articles of impeachment that are forthcoming will have to go through the House Judiciary Committee of which Gaetz is a member and, as such, he has to be allowed into the room. Where it happens. And people say vaudeville is dead.

And now, Matt Gaetz speaks.

"This morning we see further evidence that Adam Schiff's clown show of an impeachment proceeding continues. Adam Schiff lied when he said that he & his team had not had contact with the whistleblower. He lied when he read a false transcript into the record."

When the final history of this historical malignancy is written, this argument that Schiff's comic paraphrase of the president*'s guilt-laden telephone call was a "false transcript" is going to be reckoned as one of the dumbest things they ever got the MAGAs to swallow, much less one of the dumbest chunks of pure mendacity ever to emerge from Congress. For one thing none of us has seen the actual transcript of the call. What Camp Runamuck released was something close to a memorandum of the conversation, and it was still enough to touch off a legitimate impeachment inquiry. The idea that Schiff read "a false transcript into the record" is proof enough that Gaetz believes his audience is as big a box of rocks as he is.

84margd
Edited: Oct 18, 2019, 8:08am

As head of OMB, Mick Mulvaney had to be involved in holding back Ukraine's money, and as acting chief of staff he had to know what Trump/Giuiliani/Sundland were up to.

Amazing then that he has twice served up Trump:
(1) he released notes from Trump phone call with president of Ukraine ("though").

(2) Then yesterday, he admitted quid pro quo:
Mulvaney links delay in Ukraine aid to DOJ investigation into 2016, then revises statement — live updates
Stefan Becket, Grace Segers and Kathryn Watson | October 18, 2019
https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/trump-impeachment-inquiry-latest-mulvaney-ukra...

(3) WH, apparently not appreciating Mulvaney's loose cannon tendency, had him announce yet another questionable action (emoluments):
White House says Trump property will host next G-7 summit, dismissing concerns over ethics and optics
October 17, 2019
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-doral-g7-summit-next-year-trump-national-miam...

85margd
Edited: Oct 20, 2019, 6:22pm

Useful timeline for main characters. Doesn't include the burglars in 1990s film "Home Alone", nor Jasper and Horace in Disney's "101 Dalmatians"?

Trump impeachment inquiry: A visual timeline
The key people and events involved in the Ukraine scandal and the effort to impeach President Donald Trump

Zachary B. Wolf, Will Houp, Allie Schmitz and Tal Yellin. Photo editing by Heather Fulbright | Updated Oct. 18, 2019

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/10/politics/impeachment-inquiry-timeline/

86Molly3028
Edited: Oct 22, 2019, 11:55am

Jim Jordan is the same creep he was 20? years ago ~ see, hear,
speak no evil ~ he refuses to acknowledge what is going on in the
Trump administration as he did back when he was a coach.

87margd
Oct 23, 2019, 12:04pm

US Ambassador Bill Taylor's 16 page opening statement to House committees conducting impeachment probe, Oct 22, 2019:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/opening-statement-of-ambassador-william-b...
__________________________________________________​

Also posted at

Top diplomat tells lawmakers Ukraine aid was directly tied to investigations
Stefan Becket, Arden Farhi and Kathryn Watson | October 23, 2019
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bill-taylor-opening-statement-read-the-full-text-of...

88margd
Oct 23, 2019, 12:48pm

What Bill Taylor’s Testimony Adds to the Ukraine Story
Scott R. Anderson | October 23, 2019, 8:06 AM

...Taylor’s testimony may not seem like a game-changer. It adds few new facts to what was already known about Trump’s actions surrounding the July 25 telephone call—conduct to which Trump himself has already admitted and that he and his supporters continue to defend. But Taylor’s insider account of the manner in which he saw the Trump administration implement U.S. policy towards the Ukraine policy, along with the motives he credibly attributes to Trump and his close advisors, are damning. They cut straight through any pretense that the Trump administration’s actions reflected valid U.S. policy interests or were motivated by any objective other than the president’s own political advantage. Moreover, Taylor is unsparing in describing what the consequences for broader U.S. foreign policy interests will be if such self-interested conduct goes unabated.

In this sense, Taylor’s testimony puts the questions raised by the House’s impeachment inquiry and their consequences into even sharper relief. Now it remains for Congress to decide how it will respond.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-bill-taylors-testimony-adds-ukraine-story

89lriley
Oct 23, 2019, 1:02pm

#88--Taylor is a real deal diplomat and was asked by Pompeo himself to come out of retirement and take the Ukraine job. He's not a guy who had an agenda against the POTUS. Pompeo made a bad choice. He and Trump didn't want a straight shooter--that's why they got rid of Yovanovitch and that's what they got when they replaced her with Taylor. Sucks to be them. Taylor wasn't in for playing their games. Volker it looks like he was but Volker also looks like he'll jump off their ship rather than go down with it.

902wonderY
Oct 23, 2019, 3:40pm

Michael Brendan Dougherty, at the National Review, squarely places impeachment at Trump's door.

Trump's Impeachment will be Trump's Fault

91margd
Oct 23, 2019, 5:26pm

Regular folk might get shot, lose clearance/job, face up to a $500,000 fine and 10 years in prison, for storming an SCIF (with their cell phones) but Trump pre-approved the action, which could be interpreted as witness intimidation, obstruction, etc.

Trump approved GOP crashing impeachment testimony: Bloomberg
David Knowles | Oct 23rd 2019

President Trump knew in advance and approved of the plan for a contingent of Republican House members to disrupt the House impeachment inquiry Wednesday, according to Bloomberg News.

“If behind those doors they intend to overturn the result of an American presidential election, we want to know what’s going on,” Rep. Matt Gaetz, R-Fla., the ringleader of the protest, told reporters.

Chanting “Let us in! Let us in!” the (~24) members of the conservative Freedom Caucus then entered a restricted area in the Sensitive Compartmented Information Facilities, where the interviews with witnesses have been conducted.Some appeared to carry cell phones into the room in violation of security protocols...

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/10/23/trump-approved-gop-crashing-impeachm...

92margd
Oct 23, 2019, 5:29pm

Attorney General Barr Should Recuse Himself from Department of Justice Review of Ukraine Matter
October 23, 2019

Statement of the New York City Bar Association
October 23, 2019

Attorney General Barr Should Recuse Himself from Department of Justice Review of Ukraine Matter

Summary

The United States Department of Justice (DOJ) has a unique role in safeguarding the rule of law under the Constitution. By failing to recuse himself from DOJ’s review of the Ukraine Matter, Attorney General William P. Barr has undermined that role. To help remedy that failure, the New York City Bar Association urges that Mr. Barr recuse himself from any ongoing or future review by DOJ of Ukraine-related issues in which Mr. Barr is allegedly involved. If he fails to do so, he should resign or, failing that, be subject to sanctions, including possible removal, by Congress....

https://www.nycbar.org/media-listing/media/detail/attorney-general-barr-should-r...

93margd
Oct 24, 2019, 8:00am

>92 margd: contd. Barr / Ukraine

An overlooked Bill Taylor revelation hints at worse to come from Trump
What is the significance of William Taylor’s testimony?
Greg Sargent | Oct. 23, 2019

...Consider: Trump himself, his acting chief of staff, and a key ringleader of the whole scheme (Sondland) have all apparently connected ( Attorney General Barr’s probe into the investigation of interference in the 2016 elections ) directly to Trump’s pressure on Ukraine. That suggests there’s still a lot we don’t know about the overlap between the two.

This comes after the Justice Department tried to keep this whole corrupt plot buried, by advising the acting director of national intelligence not to transmit the whistleblower complaint sounding the alarm about it to Congress.

The Justice Department also declined to investigate the whistleblower’s charges even after a CIA lawyer made a criminal referral of them — which should also be revisited in light of what we now know from Taylor’s revelations.

...Just as Barr employed base dishonesty to misrepresent the special counsel’s findings, so one can easily see Barr releasing the findings of his review right when impeachment hits a climax, to spread around further fog and confusion.

The fact that Sondland was apparently discussing something so blatant as having Barr validate Ukraine’s sham investigation as part of Trump’s corrupt scheme should prompt us to redouble the questions about Barr’s role here.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/10/23/hidden-revelation-taylor-hint...

942wonderY
Edited: Oct 24, 2019, 4:17pm

Vanity Fair has a priceless headline for their story on Lindsey Graham's resolution condemning House Democrats' impeachment inquiry and their decision to conduct the initial investigation behind closed doors.

Lindsey Graham Introducing Resolution to Permanently Attach Lips to Trump’s Ass

95margd
Edited: Oct 26, 2019, 9:44am

White House delayed Ukraine trade decision in August, a signal that U.S. suspension of cooperation extended beyond security funds
David J. Lynch and Josh Dawsey | Oct. 24, 2019

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/white-house-delayed-ukraine-trad...

ETA_______________________________________________​

White House restores trade benefits for Ukraine after more than two months of delay
Reis Thebault, David J. Lynch and Josh Dawsey | Oct. 25, 2019 at 10:05 p.m. EDT

...The move, announced by Lighthizer’s office, comes a day after The Washington Post reported on Bolton’s exhortation. The revelation of that exchange between Bolton and Lighthizer was the first sign that the administration’s suspension of assistance to Ukraine extended beyond Trump’s withholding of $391 million in military aid to the country — the action at the center of House Democrats’ impeachment inquiry.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/25/white-house-restores-trade-be...

96margd
Edited: Oct 25, 2019, 11:54am

>93 margd: contd. Barr

Justice Dept. Is Said to Open Criminal Inquiry Into Its Own Russia Investigation
Katie Benner and Adam Goldman | Oct. 24, 2019

WASHINGTON — For more than two years, President Trump has repeatedly attacked the Russia investigation, portraying it as a hoax and illegal even months after the special counsel closed it. Now, Mr. Trump’s own Justice Department has opened a criminal investigation into how it all began.

Justice Department officials have shifted an administrative review of the Russia investigation closely overseen by Attorney General William P. Barr to a criminal inquiry...The move gives the prosecutor running it, John H. Durham, the power to subpoena for witness testimony and documents, to convene a grand jury and to file criminal charges.

The opening of a criminal investigation is likely to raise alarms that Mr. Trump is using the Justice Department to go after his perceived enemies. Mr. Trump fired James B. Comey, the F.B.I. director under whose watch agents opened the Russia inquiry, and has long assailed other top former law enforcement and intelligence officials as partisans who sought to block his election.

Mr. Trump has made clear that he sees the typically independent Justice Department as a tool to be wielded against his political enemies. That view factors into the impeachment investigation against him, as does his long obsession with the origins of the Russia inquiry. House Democrats are examining in part whether his pressure on Ukraine to open investigations into theories about the 2016 election constituted an abuse of power.

The move also creates an unusual situation in which the Justice Department is conducting a criminal investigation into itself.

...Mr. Barr has not said whether Mr. Durham’s investigation grew out of the inspector general’s findings or something that prosecutors unearthed while doing interviews or reviewing documents. But the inspector general’s findings, which are expected to be made public in coming weeks, could contribute to the public’s understanding of why Mr. Durham might want to investigate national security officials’ activities in 2016.

...In interviewing more than two dozen former and current F.B.I. and intelligence officials, Mr. Durham’s investigators have asked about any anti-Trump bias among officials who worked on the Russia investigation and about one aspect of the investigation that was at the heart of highly contentious allegations that they abused their powers: the secret application seeking a court order for a wiretap on Mr. Page...suspected...target of recruitment by the Russian government...

Mr. Durham has also asked whether C.I.A. officials might have somehow tricked the F.B.I. into opening the Russia investigation.

Mr. Durham has indicated he wants to interview former officials who ran the C.I.A. in 2016 but has yet to question either Mr. Brennan or James R. Clapper Jr., the former director of national intelligence. Mr. Trump has repeatedly attacked them as part of a vast conspiracy by the so-called deep state to stop him from winning the presidency...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/us/politics/john-durham-criminal-investigatio...

__________________________________________________​

House Democrats say the Justice Department is orchestrating 'political revenge' for Trump amid reports it is opening a criminal investigation into the Mueller probe
Rosie Perper | 10/25/2019

...In their joint statement Thursday, Nadler and Schiff said that if The Times' report was true, the Justice Department was operating as a "vehicle for President Trump's political revenge."

"These reports, if true, raise profound new concerns that the Department of Justice under AG Barr has lost its independence and become a vehicle for President Trump's political revenge," said the statement, which was posted on Twitter.

"If the Department of Justice may be used as a tool of political retribution, or to help the President with a political narrative for the next election, the rule of law will suffer new and irreparable damage."...

https://www.insider.com/schiff-nadler-statement-nyt-doj-criminal-investigation-m...

ETA_______________________________________________​

Explosive William Barr news points to Trump’s weakness and panic
Greg Sargent | Oct. 25, 2019

...one cannot rule out Barr potentially carrying out Trump’s directive to prosecute his political opponents — the “deep state” denizens Trump baselessly claims tried to derail his candidacy. Indeed, the Times bluntly notes that this news will “raise alarms” that Trump “is using the Justice Department to go after his perceived enemies.”

However, it is at least possible that this development isn’t quite as serious as it seems — and that this might be yet another effort to calm the Audience of One, the Mad King who is raging at everyone for not shielding him from the impeachment inquiry closing in all around him.

Consider: The Times and Post both carefully note that it’s not clear what potential crime Durham and Barr are investigating, how serious it is, or when this criminal investigation started.

As Cato Institute senior fellow Julian Sanchez notes, this signals the possibility that the criminal matter could be something relatively less serious — say, an examination of early leaks out of the Russia probe. Putting this out now, Sanchez notes, helps overshadow the impeachment inquiry’s fusillade of devastating revelations, by creating the impression that the “Deep State coup is about to come crashing down."...

...no matter what Barr does to discredit the special counsel investigation, he cannot make its extensive findings of Russian sabotage of the 2016 election, and Trump’s likely criminal efforts to cover it up, disappear. The same goes for the devastating Ukraine revelations now emerging about Trump. All Barr can do is try to fog those facts over with misdirection and propaganda.

Barr has the power of law enforcement at his disposal to do that, and the implications of what we’re seeing are terrifying. But another way to think about this is that it all leads back to Trump’s desperate panic.

Of course, if that panic mounts, it could make this situation even more dangerous.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/10/25/explosive-william-barr-news-p...

ETA_______________________________________________​

Rep. Eric Swalwell | 10:02 PM · Oct 24, 2019:

Yes, Barr must be disBarred.
But let’s stay focused: all evidence suggests @realDonaldTrump used your money to extort Ukraine.
Nothing matters more than holding him — and him first — accountable.
Stunts like this are Trump-directed distraction devices.

97margd
Edited: Oct 25, 2019, 8:51am

While Barr is busy elsewhere (#96), former US attorneys helpfully draft a mock indictment (with detailed descriptions of overt acts) against Giuliani, who's been awfully quiet lately:

United States of America v. Rudolph W. Giuliani
Former U.S. Attorneys draft a "Mock Indictment" based on publicly available evidence of Giuliani's misconduct.

Barbara McQuade and Joyce Vance | October 24, 2019

Editor’s note: What follows is a sort of thought experiment. What would an indictment of Rudy Giuliani look like based on the current, publicly available evidence of his misconduct on matters involving Ukraine? The authors, both former United States Attorneys, drafted such a “mock indictment” of Giuliani in which the President (Individual-1) appears as an alleged co-conspirator). McQuade and Vance’s preface follows....

...COUNT ONE (Conspiracy to Defraud the United States)

...COUNT TWO (Conspiracy to Commit Bribery)

...COUNT THREE (Contempt of Congress)...

https://www.justsecurity.org/66705/united-states-of-america-v-rudolph-w-giuliani...

98margd
Oct 25, 2019, 11:04am

Former Trump advisor John Bolton’s lawyers are in contact with impeachment probe panels
Dan Mangan | 10/25/2019

Lawyers for former national security advisor John Bolton have been in touch with officials working on House committees conducting an impeachment probe into President Donald Trump.

Bolton reportedly was so disturbed by efforts to get Ukraine to investigate Trump’s political opponents, among them ex-Vice President Joe Biden, that he called it a “drug deal.”

Bolton reportedly had called Trump’s personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, a “hand grenade,” in reference to Giuliani’s efforts to pressure Ukraine...

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/25/john-boltons-lawyers-are-in-contact-with-trump-i...

99lriley
Oct 25, 2019, 6:26pm

Donald Trump would love to be this country's Stalin. Bill Barr would like to be Trump's Lavrenti Beria.

100margd
Edited: Oct 26, 2019, 2:06am

Judge orders Justice Dept. to give secret Mueller documents to House Democrats
Oct 25, 2019

A district court judge on Friday granted the House Judiciary Committee's request to obtain secret grand jury materials from special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation. The documents must be turned over by October 30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3Zg7AW2kE

ETA_______________________________________________​

Impeachment Inquiry Is Legal, Judge Rules, Giving Democrats a Victory
Charlie Savage and Emily Cochrane | Oct. 25, 2019

WASHINGTON — A federal judge handed a victory to House Democrats on Friday when she ruled that they were legally engaged in an impeachment inquiry, a decision that undercut President Trump’s arguments that the investigation is a sham.

The declaration came in a 75-page opinion by Chief Judge Beryl A. Howell of the Federal District Court in Washington. She ruled that the House Judiciary Committee was entitled to view secret grand jury evidence gathered by the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III.

...“The White House’s stated policy of noncooperation with the impeachment inquiry weighs heavily in favor of disclosure,” Judge Howell wrote. “Congress’s need to access grand jury material relevant to potential impeachable conduct by a president is heightened when the executive branch willfully obstructs channels for accessing other relevant evidence.”

The administration is likely to appeal the ruling...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/25/us/politics/house-impeachment-subpoenas.html

101fuzzi
Oct 26, 2019, 12:10am

>80 John5918: people get their information from a number of sources. Stating that social media or any media that isn't on someone's "approved" list (Pravda anyone?) doesn't mean it is necessarily "less reliable" (of course).

>81 lriley: political discourse can be stimulating, enjoyable. People bringing rants about "Trump is going to blow up the world!" into threads about reading reviews or monthly challenges is an example of political talk misplaced.

And not reading beyond the NYT or Daily Beast for news is a sad thing to see in a forum about READING.

102margd
Edited: Oct 26, 2019, 1:57am

Glenn Kirschner @glennkirschner2 | 11:43 PM · Oct 25, 2019
And here’s one of my favorite observations from today’s opinion by Judge Howell.
Her view of the OLC (Office of Legal Counsel) memo saying a criminal president can’t be indicted:
Image*https://twitter.com/glennkirschner2/status/1187937680019087360/photo/1

(* This OLC conclusion has never been adopted, sanctioned, or in any way approved by a court.)

__________________________________________________​

Speaking of media that isn't on someone's approved list:

Barry R McCaffrey @mccaffreyr3 | 7:41 PM · Oct 25, 2019
The White House Trump statement telling the entire Federal Government to terminate subscriptions to the NYT and Wash Post
is a watershed moment in national history. No room for HUMOROUS media coverage. This is deadly serious. This is Mussolini.

103John5918
Oct 26, 2019, 2:17am

>101 fuzzi:

I agree with you of course that one should read widely to try to get a balanced view. That's one of the reasons why I think self-selecting and self-reinforcing social media are not helpful. It's all done by algorithms trying to anticipate what you might be interested in and thus getting you to click on pages which boost somebody's advertising revenue. There are people in eastern Europe and probably elsewhere who make a living out of producing fake news on hot topics in order to generate clicks. You suggested in your earlier post that people are getting most of their information from passively watching TV. I'm suggesting that this is no longer true. Many are getting most of their information by passively clicking on social media.

>102 margd: refers to your statement about "approved" lists.

104margd
Oct 26, 2019, 2:35am

Rachel Maddow MSNBC @maddow | 2:35 PM · Oct 25, 2019:
"A move to bring department headquarters — 'Main Justice' as its widely known — deeper into the Giuliani probe is causing heartburn at SDNY"

Yeah, I wonder why.

Giuliani probe snowballs
The Justice Department is bringing more resources to the investigation, indicating widening trouble for one of Trump's lawyers.
DARREN SAMUELSOHN | 10/25/2019
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/25/rudy-giuliani-justice-department-057125

105lriley
Oct 26, 2019, 5:41am

#101--your argument seems goofy to me and by the way if you're suggesting I read the New York Times or Daily Beast with any regularity---you're wrong. Maybe you like reading Breitbart or National Review shit--maybe not. I don't care.....but see how that works?

Political argument can be enjoyable and stimulating? If you say so----but someone believes something and someone else believes something opposite doesn't mean they're going to come to some happy compromise and meet in the middle. You don't really change minds of people who are committed to their beliefs let alone people who are committed to a cult of personality like so many are. The thing is I'm not interested in being nice to people I think are absolutely wrong and this particular POTUS we have now is the most divisive we've ever had---a lawbreaker and a liar and yeah his followers are like cultists. You want to come off as reasonable?--goody for you. I want people to take climate change seriously. I want medicare for all and massive wealth disparity to end. They're more important to me than leaving a good impression on those I'm never going to see eye to eye with....and I don't give a shit if most people think it's reasonable or not---what I care about is what I think is right and needs to be done.

I don't think you're a particularly great arbiter either of having 'read widely' or having 'balanced views' either. Generally I don't care for people making claims about how 'with it' they think they are. Lots of people on the LT site have read a lot by the way.

106proximity1
Edited: Oct 27, 2019, 7:42am

Think of it! As part of a mass-movement's exercise in virtue-signalling, people are bent on removing an elected president of the United States; this is merely so they can "feel better" about the political void of their consumer-existence. These are a spoiled-child's illusions of "doing something" when that consists of essentially rendering a creaking and semi-functional political order completely unworkable out of their stubborn refusal to accept the outcome of a typically-run exercise in electoral decision-making--we called them elections; they were supposed to be done with some dignity and their results were supposed to be respected since, in times past, this is what adults did.

Today's shit-fest is the predictable consequence of a society which has become more and more emotionally and intellectually infantile and, as part of that, childishly intolerant.


__________________________________________

LOL! ----> Bill Maher.

Alas, Bill, YES, this shit is "just too hard" for dip-shit moron liberal-Democrats to figure out.

They could nominate Tulsi Gabbard but, frankly, I just don't think they have that much fucking good sense.

107John5918
Oct 26, 2019, 6:17am

>106 proximity1:

No. People who are concerned about alleged criminal behaviour on the part of an elected president have initiated a constitutional process to examine the allegations and allow the law and constitution to take their course. In my lifespan he is the third elected president to be scrutinised for misbehaviour, so it's hardly as if everyone is picking on him alone.

108margd
Oct 27, 2019, 5:29am

I didn't think a wealthy man whose job as ambassador was more of a late-life whim than a career would be willing to be scapegoat:

WSJ: Sondland Told Lawmakers Trump Action on Ukraine Amounted to Quid Pro Quo
Daniel Politi | Oct 26, 201911:16 PM

U.S. Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland told House committees last week that the way in which President Donald Trump and his allies pressured Ukraine to open political investigations in exchange for a White House meeting amounted to a quid pro quo. Sondland’s lawyer told the Wall Street Journal that the top diplomat specifically said that Ukraine agreeing to open up an investigation into 2016 election interference and a probe into a gas company where former vice president Joe Biden’s son once served on the board was a condition for a White House meeting between Trump and his Ukrainian counterpart, Volodymyr Zelensky. A lawmaker asked Sondland specifically whether that amounted to a quid pro quo. The diplomat specified that he wasn’t a lawyer but he believed the answer to that question was yes.

...Sondland testified he had no knowledge of a connection between military aid and the investigations. But some lawmakers have called on Sondland to return for more questioning with some even suggesting he may face perjury charges. Since then there have been hints that Sondland was eager to distance himself from the president and his lawyer’s revelations to the Wall Street Journal seem to do just that.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/gordon-sondland-house-committees-tru...

109lriley
Oct 27, 2019, 7:16am

#108--just his testifying tells you he's scared......because he really is a right wing guy and someone who wanted desperately to jump on board the Trump train......and now that it's caught on fire and is heading on going over a cliff he wants to jump off. Go figure. Still he was very very happy playing Trump's game at least until he was caught out. Basically Sondland is a scumbag.

#106---hah hah--'so they can feel better about the political void of their consumer existence'----what does that even mean? You do have your amateur psychiatrist hat on again though. Anyway speaking about filling the void--Trump has been trying to fill it with all kinds of gimmicks ever since he's been in office. For instance recently his 'get over it'--Mulvaney quote inspired t-shirt he's trying to sell for $30 a shot but it goes all the way back to his pushing Ivanka's clothing line from the first day--pushing his hotels and golf resorts. The casinos--the phony Trump University scam all about selling will of the wisps of hope to unwary customers. He's the one with the problem---we're the ones with the popcorn when his shit really begins to go down.

110margd
Oct 27, 2019, 8:03am

Monty Boa @MontyBoa99 | 8:27 PM · Oct 24, 2019
44 Senators just signed a resolution stating that the process
designed by Republican Speaker John Boehner and passed by the GOP-led House in 2015
fails the test for due process.

That process was used by Trey Gowdy to question 103 witnesses in secret and waste $7 million.

(Benghazi)

111fuzzi
Edited: Oct 27, 2019, 11:09am

>105 lriley: whatever. Read whatever you want, but verify before you believe.

Consider being civil and nice to people, for your own sake.

I'm more interested in the truth than causes, that's why I don't accept any information as fact without research, and why I don't believe the world is ending in 12 years...now that sounds like a cult.

112John5918
Edited: Oct 27, 2019, 11:14am

>111 fuzzi: I don't accept any information as fact without research

Isn't that effectively what the constitutionally mandated people are doing at this moment, researching the information which was given to them by interviewing witnesses and obtaining documents, rather than just taking the allegations at face value? And yet some people are trying to obstruct and shut down this process.

113lriley
Oct 27, 2019, 2:00pm

#112--it doesn't fit into certain narratives. The White House telling members its foreign diplomatic corps to defy subpoenas?--is tantamount to asking them for a loyalty test not to the country but to the POTUS.

Anyway it's clear that when a President creates his own shadow State dept. he's undermining the for real State dept.----undermining the same people he's trying to intimidate into silence. Undermining the goals the majority of them have worked on sometimes over several administrations.

As far as how Schiff has handled the impeachment investigation--he's working from John Boehner's playbook implemented by a Republican majority House in 2015 by some of the same characters now crying foul.

114margd
Edited: Oct 28, 2019, 6:55am

Chief Justice John Roberts’ Nov 2018 statement that the court is politically impartial is basis for Trump-supporter rumblings that he should recuse from any Senate trial of Large Orange One! Constitution be damned! Don't want stinkin' impartiality! Don't want loyalty to Constitution over loyalty to LOO! :D

'Crisis of confidence': John Roberts' impeachment role prompts recusal rumblings
Alex Swoyer - The Washington Times - Sunday, October 27, 2019

"When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside." Art 1, S. 3, P. 6.

...Chief Justice Roberts released an unusual statement indirectly firing back at the president over his politicization of judges based on the presidents who appointed them.

“We do not have Obama judges or Trump judges, Bush judges or Clinton judges,” Chief Justice Roberts said in a statement in November 2018 issued from the court’s public information office.

“What we have is an extraordinary group of dedicated judges doing their level best to do equal right to those appearing before them,” he said.

The president received the rare rebuke after criticizing a ruling from a district judge in California against his administration...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/oct/27/john-roberts-supreme-court-chie...

115proximity1
Edited: Oct 28, 2019, 11:00am

>114 margd:

RE: "Chief Justice John Roberts’ Nov 2018 statement that the court is politically impartial is basis for Trump-supporter rumblings that he should recuse from any Senate trial of Large Orange One!"

_____________________

But!, but! but! I've been repeatedly lectured by others who hate Trump's guts that there's really no need for such technicalities as finding an actual crime--let alone a high one or a high misdemeanor--as grounds for his impeachment, trial, conviction and, of course, removal from office. This is because, as I'm lectured, impeachments are essentially political affairs, rather than judicial ones.

Well, then, in that case, there's no place for complaints about alleged lack of "impartiality" since, obviously, political affairs are always inherently partisan, and, so, riven with partiality.

I'm almost tempted to imagine that Trump's torch-and-pitchfork pursuers are demanding to have things "both ways" at once.

Oh, and by the way, please notice: your fellow Trump-critic, Molly, has declared our national founding documents to have become outmoded antiques, no longer binding on us since we now live in what she calls "Trumpland."

_____________________________________

Now let's turn to this:



... ...

"We got the bridge built inside the time limit and stood back and watched the major slowly drive the jeep across. The bridge groaned against the hemp ropes and there was a moment when the jeep’s tires reached the end of the logs on the other side when it looked like they wouldn’t hold. Then the tires grabbed the earth and the major drove the jeep onto the bank. The bridge held.

"We disassembled the bridge and stacked the logs and loaded into the trucks and headed back to the main camp. Bill Taylor had run things out there, but it hadn’t felt like he was in charge. He just was.

"I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall this week when he testified in the so-called SCIF on Capitol Hill. An NBC report described the scene this way: 'The room went silent during Taylor’s 45-minute opening statement, which he delivered in a steady yet confident tone, stopping just a few times to take a sip of water, according to a source in the room. "You could hear a pin drop," one source said.' I’ll bet you could.

"Another report said that Republicans were close-mouthed as they exited the room after Taylor’s testimony. I’ll bet they were.

"It took Trump two days to attack Taylor, and then all he could manage was calling him 'Never Trumper Diplomat Bill Taylor (who I don’t know).' Wow. I bet that shook him up.

"Taylor’s testimony directly tied Trump to the decision to withhold aid to Ukraine in return for an “investigation” of his political opponent Joe Biden. It’s the closest we’ve come to a 'smoking gun' in the impeachment investigation. It’s why the Republican 'freedom caucus' loons pulled a Brooks Brothers riot when they invaded the SCIF on Wednesday. It’s why Lindsey Graham is trying a resolution condemning the impeachment investigation in the Senate. They’re desperate to defend Trump, and they’ve got nothing to defend him with.

"The question on everyone’s lips all week has been, what makes a guy like Bill Taylor do the right thing? The answer I’ve got for you is this: That’s who he is. He’s one of the most careful, conservative guys I’ve ever known, in the best and most real sense of the word 'conservative.' He took the West Point motto, 'Duty, Honor, Country' seriously. He took the West Point honor code seriously. He took his oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States seriously. I’ve known him since we were in high school, and he’s never wavered in all these years.

"When I was growing up, there was one question my father used to ask me and my brother when we were at the dinner table and said someone was bullied at school, or a kid had used racist language, or a teacher had acted unjustly to another kid in class. 'Did you stand up?' our father would ask us, hardly looking up from his plate. The rule in our house was, when you were asked that question, you had better be ready to answer in the affirmative.

"Our fathers were classmates at West Point. They lived by the West Point motto and honor code, too. I’d be willing to bet Bill Taylor was asked the same question by his father at the dinner table. And I’ll bet I know his answer."




This stuff many call "bullying" is, of course, the "mother's milk" of political-life.

So I hesitate to complain that Trump's pursuers—who more resemble a lynch-mob than they do just one or more school-yard "bullies" is being "bullied." While, yes, this is a clear case of Trump's being faced partisan bullies, he must have known—and he of course damn well did know—that this is what comes with the job he asked for by standing for office.

The details of those aspects which could rightly qualify Trump's pursuers as "bullies" rather than merely as political opponents or adversaries are not to found in the fact that they gang up on him or that they use cheap and morally-disreputable tactics—which they do. They are to found in the fact that these people epitomize cowardly hypocrites. People who lack the guts to try their case against Trump on fairly given grounds where claims are tried, tested for their validity. Bullies wouldn't grant that much because they couldn't gain an undue advantage by it and they need an undue advantage in order to get to their objective.

People who luxuriate in hypocrisy are not the sort to whom I feel inclined to listen when they sanctimoniously appeal to slogans such as West Point Military Academy's "Duty, Honor, Country" —especially when it seems that they've failed to reckon on the question: what's "Honor" without an unflinching respect for truth and a consistent practice of honesty? And where, in all that has transpired since the emergence of Christopher Steele's Fusion GPS “Trump-Russia dossier”, is the respect for truth and honesty which is a part of “honor”?

You see, in this case, the school-yard bullies are in the national press-corps; in the F.B.I. as it was run under the direction of James Comey and Bruce Ohr; they are in the Office of National Intelligence as that was run under the direction of James Clapper; and they include John O. Brennan, director of the Central Intelligence Agency. They also include California congressman Adam Schiff, and the too-long-in-office for our good, congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House.

To push their bullying of Trump further along, these people have called in Bill Taylor and, unless he's a fool, he cannot have failed to notice that they're attempting to make a tool of him as part of their political bullying of Trump.

So let us pose the question which Lucian K. Truscott the Fourth's father would pose to either of his sons at the family dinner-table when one of them recounted an instance of injustice from recent school-experiences—let us pose it to Bill Taylor:

“With regard to Trump's being bullied, did you stand up?”

116John5918
Oct 28, 2019, 10:11am

>111 fuzzi:

fuzzi, I know you identify as a Christian, so you might be interested in post #31 in this thread on 'Trumpian new lows'

117John5918
Oct 29, 2019, 8:05am

Trump impeachment: Democrats plan first formal vote (BBC)

The US House of Representatives plans to take its first formal vote this week on the impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said the vote "sets forth due process rights for the President and his Counsel"...

Thursday's vote planned by Mrs Pelosi and her fellow Democrats is not to impeach Mr Trump, but to set out ground rules for their inquiry...

She said the move would "eliminate any doubt" as to whether the White House can withhold documents, disregard subpoenas or prevent witnesses from giving testimony... Mrs Pelosi said the resolution in the Democratic-controlled House would also "ensure transparency and provide a clear path forward"...

118margd
Edited: Oct 30, 2019, 8:12am

Vindman offers a firsthand account of critical episodes in alleged quid pro quo
Karoun Demirjian and Greg Jaffe | Oct. 29, 2019

...(Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, a Ukraine expert assigned to the National Security Council) is the first impeachment witness to have listened in on the July 25 call between Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, during which Trump said he wanted a “favor” after Zelensky brought up the topic of nearly $400 million in promised American military aid. Vindman was listening from the Situation Room along with other NSC officials and members of Vice President Pence’s staff, he said in prepared remarks released late Monday, and was so “concerned by the call” — and that the president’s request could be seen as “a partisan play” that could “undermine U.S. national security” — that he reported it to the NSC’s lead counsel...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/vindman-offers-a-firsthand-acco...

ETA_______________________________________________​

Why Alexander Vindman’s testimony is big
Aaron Blake | Oct. 29, 2019
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/10/29/why-lt-col-alexander-vindmans...

119proximity1
Oct 29, 2019, 2:53pm


Andrew McCabe's suit against the F.B.I. has been dismissed.

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.197607/gov.uscourts.dcd.197...

Next?

120fuzzi
Edited: Oct 29, 2019, 9:40pm

>116 John5918: I don't identify as a Christian, I am one, a born-again, Bible-believing, child of God. And even if the entire census of Roman Catholics/Protestants/Baptists etc declared that President Trump should act more presidential, it would not matter one jot or tittle. Opinion isn't important, but truth is.

The Democrats in our Congress are ignoring the rules, procedures and laws of our country, and are neglecting their elected duties in a frenetic attempt to negate election results of almost three years ago.

By their fruits we know them.

121lriley
Oct 29, 2019, 11:33pm

First off the reason we're in this mess is that Trump ignored or better said flouted the rules, procedures and laws of our country. That's why he's being impeached. He has no right over the power of the purse--that is the job of the House of Representatives not the POTUS. He had no right to delay money set aside by the House for the Ukraine so as to coerce the Ukrainian president to help dig up dirt on one of Trump's opponents. By the way I really really don't like Biden but still......

As far as the process the democrats in the House have been following....it was designed by John Boehner (then republican speaker of the house) in 2015. What republicans thought as good then when they controlled the House they complain about now----so what gives? The fact is they complain about the process and ignore the conduct of the POTUS altogether which again is why this whole fucking thing is going on--because really he's caught out and so have a number of other of his people. Beyond that he had no right having Rudy Giuliani running a shadow State dept. for him. There are reasons why the Senate confirms cabinet heads---they are there to implement policy. That is the Senate's job. Using other actors is illegal and an abuse of power.

As far as religion goes.....I don't really care if someone believe in God, Allah, the Bhudda or Krishna. If it makes you happy--gives you peace that's great. But believing is one thing and it's not knowing and it's not proof of anything so one should be circumspective of our beliefs and if we're using them to force other people into situations and if they don't share those beliefs....that's bullshit.

122John5918
Edited: Oct 30, 2019, 12:29am

>120 fuzzi: The Democrats in our Congress are ignoring the rules, procedures and laws of our country

I was going to answer that, but I think >121 lriley: has done so better than I could. They are not ignoring the rules, they are following the rules, which is one of the reasons why it is a slow and frustrating process, partciularly for Trump who has a tendency not to follow rules. He will have the benefit of due process of law, and will eventually be found guilty or innocent according to the law.

Edited to add: Opinion isn't important, but truth is

I know you are a bible literalist so you believe in interpreting the bible literally, unlike most global Christians, who favour an exegetical approach, but where in the bible is there a "truth" about Trump? So how are you sure that you have the "truth" about him while everybody else only has "opinioin"?

123proximity1
Edited: Oct 30, 2019, 9:15am



KIMBERLEY STRASSEL, WALL STREET JOURNAL: "one of the problems — the huge problem — of this entire impeachment farce that’s going on at the moment is that no one is being allowed to see their full testimony or how they hold up under questioning. This is the entire point of impeachment...

"We’ve heard this narrative for years, that Donald Trump is undermining our institutions (and) breaking all of our standards, but if you look out there (and) if you step back, it’s actually the other side that’s violating so many norms, and that includes this impeachment drama that we are hearing, in that we’ve never had a situation in which the House has not voted for a formal impeachment inquiry — now, we hear that they’re going to do that later this week, I hope that they do, because that’s a measure of accountability — but everything is being done in secret, we’re only getting leaked bits of testimony where people hear this or that. It’s all designed to push a narrative, not necessarily to inform the American public about what is going on.

"So we have all these people that are coming and giving testimony but we don’t really know how they held up in testimony and what they really had to say, and this is a very dangerous precedent, because I keep warning people on the liberal side of the aisle that this is the precedent you’re going to set where we’re going to use impeachment as a partisan political tool, and we’re going to do it behind closed doors, and we’re going to have in essence a trial that nobody can see, there’s going to be a point where there’s a Democratic president and a Republican House and that situation is going to be turned around. Do we really want impeachment to be the way that we settle debates in this country?"



________________________________

Now, by the way,



Memo to Trump's critics, the nauseatingly Tone-deaf Virtue-signallers:

Question: Trump is petty!? Trump!? Try thinking about the things you block out.

124barney67
Oct 30, 2019, 8:51am

>120 fuzzi: One of the very few sane people left on this madhouse web site.

125lriley
Oct 30, 2019, 9:10am

So what Trump left out of his transcript was the part where Trump and Zhelinsky talked specifically about Biden and his son or what was the quid pro quo. That was in part Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman's testimony and he was directly listening in.

Again Trump's own conduct is what's damning him. That they tried to hide it on an alternate server--that when they came out with the transcript they omitted the key part about Trump and Zhelinsky's discussion about the Biden's. There is knowledge of guilt in hiding all this.

126proximity1
Oct 30, 2019, 10:57am



If Nancy Pelosi doesn't get a move on and get Trump impeached, tried, convicted and removed from office, all of the top echelon of ISIS is going to be wiped out from Trump's targeted strikes before Vice-president Pence is even sworn in to office! LOL!

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/467877-trump-announces-death-of-al-b...

127lriley
Oct 30, 2019, 11:25am

#126--so no one can defeat ISIS except for Donald Trump? and so his criminal conduct should be ignored because of that? Is that some kind of argument against impeachment?

Just a week or so ago the Donald was telling us that if ISIS prisoners escaped into Europe tough shit for Europeans and that's where you live isn't it? And whilst he's been throwing the Kurds under the bus--he's been throwing away a lot of his intel in the region with it all the while detailing to the world how Delta Force carry out operations. So you really think Donald is anything other than a passenger here? who says get me to point A not knowing or caring what roads to take to get there. Because that's what I think despite all of Donald's chest beating nonsense. Al-Bhagdadi is assassinated because we had intel from our former friends the Kurds and our military did all the planning after that.

128jjwilson61
Oct 30, 2019, 11:32am

>120 fuzzi: So, because you believe you can see into the souls of the Democrat in Congress and know that their motives are base and that means that anything they do against the President is tainted. Does that mean that the President could do anything, say shoot Joe Biden on national television, and it would still be wrong for the Democrats to do anything?

You're so convinced in your world view that you're letting a con man get away with anything he wants.

129Molly3028
Edited: Oct 30, 2019, 1:24pm

It appears that Rudy and Trump are like two cement blocks that
are chained to each other. If one goes down, they BOTH go down.

130margd
Oct 31, 2019, 6:08am

White House lawyer moved transcript of Trump call to classified server after Ukraine adviser raised alarms
Carol D. Leonnig, Tom Hamburger and Greg Miller | Oct. 30, 2019

Moments after President Trump ended his phone call with Ukraine’s president on July 25, an unsettled national security aide rushed to the office of White House lawyer John Eisenberg.*

Army Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine adviser at the White House, had been listening to the call and was disturbed by the pressure Trump had applied to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to investigate his political rivals, according to people familiar with Vindman’s testimony to lawmakers this week.

Vindman told Eisenberg, the White House’s legal adviser on national security issues, that what the president did was wrong, said the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the ongoing investigation.

Scribbling notes on a yellow legal pad, Eisenberg proposed a step that other officials have said is at odds with long-standing White House protocol: moving a transcript of the call to a highly classified server and restricting access to it...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-lawyer-moved-transcript-of-t...

*

131margd
Edited: Oct 31, 2019, 6:21am

MSNBC @MSNBC | 10/30/2019:
.@TheBeatWithAri outlines how despite President Trump’s criticisms,
Democrats have actually outlined an impeachment process
which gives him more power to participate than Presidents Nixon or Clinton had.
https://on.msnbc.com/2q1Q53H
Image https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1189690206565339136/photo/1

George Conway @gtconway3d | 10/30/2019:
And absolutely none of this is constitutionally or legally required.
__________________________________________________​

What’s in the House Resolution on Impeachment?
Molly E. Reynolds, Margaret Taylor | October 30, 2019
https://www.lawfareblog.com/whats-house-resolution-impeachment

132margd
Edited: Oct 31, 2019, 8:16am

Trump's Russia Director (Tim Morrison) To Leave National Security Council Amid Impeachment Inquiry
Franco Ordoñez | October 30, 20195:05 PM ET
Heard on All Things Considered

Tim Morrison, the top Russia official on President Trump's National Security Council, who is scheduled to testify in the impeachment inquiry on Thursday, is set to leave his White House post imminently, three sources familiar with the plan told NPR.

...a conservative hawk who has served as the senior director for European and Russian affairs on the National Security Council...had been working on arms control and biodefense issues at the NSC when he was elevated to the Russia portfolio by Trump's then-national security adviser, John Bolton. Morrison started in the role in July, overlapping with his predecessor, Fiona Hill — another witness in the impeachment inquiry — who had announced her plans to leave the White House in August.

...Morrison had alerted NSC lawyers* about alleged demands being placed on the Ukrainian government to investigate a company where the son of former Vice President Joe Biden sat on the board, according to testimony this month from William Taylor, the top U.S. diplomat in Ukraine.

...Morrison's attorney, Barbara Van Gelder, said he planned to appear before House investigators on Thursday if subpoenaed....

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/30/774815627/trumps-russia-director-to-leave-nationa...

__________________________________________________​

* White House lawyer moved transcript of Trump call to classified server after Ukraine adviser raised alarms
Carol D. Leonnig, Tom Hamburger and Greg Miller | Oct. 30, 2019 at 10:50 p.m. EDT

...White House lawyer John Eisenberg...has served as deputy White House counsel since the start of Trump’s administration. House impeachment investigators on Wednesday evening announced they have asked Eisenberg and a fellow White House lawyer, Mike Ellis, to testify Monday.

...Stunned (at Trump's requests re 2016 election, Biden in July 25 call), Vindman looked up and made eye contact with (Tim Morrison, a former deputy to national security adviser John Bolton, who had just replaced Hill as the senior Russia adviser at the White House)...(Also present was retired Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg, Vice President Pence’s national security adviser.)

After the call, Vindman hurried to Eisenberg’s door, bringing with him his twin brother, Yevgeny, an ethics attorney on the National Security Council. Ellis, a deputy legal adviser to the National Security Council, also joined the discussion, the person said.

Vindman read out loud notes he took of the president’s call. Eisenberg then suggested that the National Security Council move records of the call to a separate, highly classified computer system...known as NICE, for NSC Intelligence Collaboration Environment, which is normally reserved for code-word-level ­intelligence programs and top-secret sources and methods...

On Sept. 25, under mounting political pressure, the White House released the rough transcript of the Zelensky call. Trump has declared it a “perfect call” and proof that he has not done anything wrong.

In his testimony, Vindman recalled that on the call, Zelensky raised Burisma by name in response to Trump’s request that the Ukrainians look into the Bidens — a detail not included in the transcript released by the White House.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-lawyer-moved-transcript-of-t...

133margd
Oct 31, 2019, 7:53am

Trump Was Pressuring China To Make Up Dirt On Biden As Part Of Trade Deal
Jason Easley | Oct 30th, 2019

...Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) says it appears that Trump conditioned a trade deal with China on the Chinese making up dirt on Joe Biden.

"As if an all-out pressure campaign on Ukraine to make up dirt on Trump's political rivals wasn’t enough, it appears that the administration was making a trade deal with China contingent on getting manufactured kompromat on Biden. I'm demanding answers. https://www.wsj.com/articles/senator-asks-whether-biden-probe-was-linked-to-chin..." …

...Trump trade representative Peter Navarro refused to answer when asked six times if Trump tried to tie a trade deal with China to the Chinese providing dirt on Joe Biden. Trump himself constantly mentions bogus claims about Biden and China...

https://www.politicususa.com/2019/10/30/trump-china-biden-trade-deal.html

134margd
Oct 31, 2019, 8:19am

Vindman reveals how notorious Devin Nunes aide tricked Trump over and over again on Ukraine
Travis Gettys | October 30, 2019

Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman was sidelined from debriefing President Donald Trump about Ukraine’s future because an associate of Rep. Devin Nunes (R-CA) had already claimed the role of White House expert on the foreign ally, which he actually knew very little about.

Vindman testified before the House impeachment inquiry that longtime Nunes staffer Kashyap Patel had “misrepresented” himself to the president to become more deeply involved in Ukraine policy, two sources told Politico.

The sources said Vindman had attended the inauguration of Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky and was looking forward to explaining the newly elected leader’s vision for his country, but was instructed “at the last second” not to attend the debriefing.

Trump’s advisers were worried his presence might confuse the president, who had been led to believe that Patel was the National Security Council expert on Ukraine, Vindman told lawmakers...

...Patel, the lead author on the infamous “Nunes memo” intended to undermine the Russia probe, is officially assigned to work on counterterrorism issues for the NSC...

https://www.alternet.org/2019/10/vindman-reveals-how-notorious-devin-nunes-aide-...

135Molly3028
Edited: Nov 2, 2019, 9:16am

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/chris-wallace-shuts-down-gop-argument-on-impeachment...

I am glad to see that FOXite's Chris Wallace is finally growing into
the reporting shoes his father wore for many decades at CBS.

136margd
Edited: Nov 4, 2019, 12:28pm

I have jury duty next week...

Richard W. Painter @RWPUSA | 8:01 AM · Oct 31, 2019
This is a bribe.
Any other American who offered cash to the jury before a trial would go to prison for felony bribery.
But he can get away with it?
Criminal.

The senators can raise their own campaign cash.
Any senator who accepts cash from @realDonaldTrump
before the impeachment trial is guilty of accepting a bribe and should go to the slammer.

If @realDonaldTrump
doesn’t want to get hit with a bribery charge, during the impeachment process he had better stick to raising money for GOP challengers in senate races, not incumbent senators who will vote guilty or not guilty in his case.

--------------------------------------------------​

Trump lures GOP senators on impeachment with cold cash
ALEX ISENSTADT | 10/31/2019

President Donald Trump is rewarding senators who have his back on impeachment — and sending a message to those who don't to get on board.

Trump is tapping his vast fundraising network for a handful of loyal senators facing tough reelection bids in 2020. Each of them has signed onto a Republican-backed resolution condemning the inquiry as “unprecedented and undemocratic.”

Conspicuously absent from the group is Maine Sen. Susan Collins, a politically vulnerable Republican who’s refused to support the resolution and avoided taking a stance on impeachment. With his new push, Trump is exerting leverage over a group he badly needs in his corner with an impeachment trial likely coming soon to the Senate — but that also needs him...

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/31/trump-impeachment-senators-donor-062084

137lriley
Oct 31, 2019, 6:16pm

#136--well there's nothing really beneath him. That's been evident for quite a while. He is the transactional president. He can be bought by other countries. He will sell out allies. He'll throw his own accomplices under the bus if need be. He'll look away from murders done by his friends. The world leaders he likes best and takes cues from are the most despotic.

138John5918
Edited: Nov 2, 2019, 2:02am

Experts on Trump's conduct: 'Plainly an abuse of power, plainly impeachable' (Guardian)

Republicans may argue Trump’s actions were not impeachable – but scholars say it’s a solid example of a high crime...

Trump’s conduct, according to analysts interviewed by the Guardian, hews more closely than any previous conduct by any other president to what scholars conceive as a concrete example of impeachable behavior...

“I think these are quite clearly, precisely the type of high crimes and misdemeanors that the founders not only feared but actually discussed at the constitutional convention”...

139Molly3028
Edited: Nov 2, 2019, 9:48am

Cult leaders, cult followers and the power of an Internet were not
on any of our founders "radar screens" back in the 1700s. At best,
America surviving this Trump-era insanity is a 50/50 proposition.
Impeachment and re-election are most likely to occur. I believe
another Trump-like figure is probably waiting in the wings for his
decade in the spotlight.

140proximity1
Nov 2, 2019, 11:59am



>139 Molly3028:

" I believe another Trump-like figure is probably waiting in the wings for his
decade in the spotlight."

Indeed. Not that you'd notice or that you noticed when it happened most recently prior to Trump.

The last most recent example of such a person was one you apparently just gushed over with approval: Hillary Rodham Clinton, to be precise.

141lriley
Edited: Nov 2, 2019, 12:15pm

I think Molly has to advance to the point where Prox no longer talks to her. Until Molly does that he's going to continue to stalk her every post here. If and when she does reach that point he'll have to find someone else to land on because he can't keep his obsessive hatreds to himself--he has to share his poisonous garbage.

142Molly3028
Edited: Nov 2, 2019, 1:42pm

To whom it may concern ~

HRC is in NY state. Trump is in the WH.

Trump has opened up a modern-day Pandora's box. His campaign
and administration are part of a blueprint (Trump U./Continuing
Ed. Division) that will be used by other Trump-minded types to
pursue political dominance. These types have been getting daily
lessons on how to use the media and the Internet to spread
misinformation, fear and hate to all corners of the country.

143davidgn
Nov 3, 2019, 12:25am

Chomsky's take:
https://theintercept.com/2019/10/31/deconstructed-special-the-noam-chomsky-inter...

In a nutshell:
NC: First notice something, they’re going after Trump not on his major crimes but because he went after a leading Democrat. Does that remind you of anything? Yes. Watergate. They didn’t go after Nixon on his major crimes. They were off the record. It was because he had attacked the Democratic party.

MH: Good point.

NC: So yes, they’ll protect themselves. Is it the right thing to do? I mean, Trump is impeachable 100 times over. You know, he’s a major crook. There’s no doubt about it. Is it politically wise? I frankly doubt it. I think it’ll turn out pretty much like the Mueller report, which, that I thought was also a political mistake. What’ll happen is probably the House will impeach, goes to the Senate. The Republican senators are utterly craven. They’re terrified of Trump’s voting base. So they’ll vote to turn down the impeachment request. Trump will come along, say I’m vindicated. Say it was the Deep State and the treacherous Dems trying to overturn the election. Oh, vote for me.

144lriley
Nov 3, 2019, 5:52am

#143--there are calculations involved. To me the Ukraine thing is very impeachable and if nothing else it might keep Trump from pulling the same maneuver on whoever becomes the nominee assuming it isn't Biden. I think another part of the story is Mueller kind of killed his own investigation--he hemmed, hawed and hedged for pretty much two years--and in the end pulled up short from indicting Trump simply because of this unwritten rule that an acting POTUS couldn't be charged with a crime....even if there were crimes and even if he is an unindicted co-conspirator to a crime. That was the department of justice way and even if the democratic party was for all that while it was going on the department of justice way was about as ineffective as it could be and with Barr as the attorney general that road is closed off. Barr has made it clear who he works for.

I don't like Biden and his uncredentialed son working for an Ukrainian oil and gas company is pretty fucked up. That said there doesn't appear to be any illegality going on. Holding up money that congress has earmarked for an ally defending itself against a foreign adversary so as to get dirt---to create a case out of thin air on a political opponent---not only that but using an unconfirmed shadow surrogate (Giuliani) to pull it off in secret and not only that but to set aside once again the decision of his own intelligence people that Russia interfered in our 2016 election---not the Ukrainians. I'm well aware of black ops or false flag operations but even so things have always pointed to the Russians here---not just Putin remarks but Trump actions. I'm not interested in fighting a war with the Russians but they ain't our friend and never have been. They are Trump's friends--he picks from the worst for that--Kim, MBS, Bolsonaro, Netanyahu, Erdogan, Putin. Trump determined to override his own State Dept. and his own intelligence community to defend an indefensible position that he alone holds. And FWIW he is no fucking genius and he is unstable as it gets. He's also racist, illiterate and a con man. He's not believable.

That said--I kind of expect that the Senate will not remove him and that he will immediately claim exoneration and that for the most part his base will stay intact. My best guess though is that ultimately this will damage him--cut him off from most independents and the more moderate of the center right. It will also take a toll on republicans in the Senate. There are 35 seats up for election in 2020 and almost twice as many of them are republican seats and that means more defending and less money to spread around. Another thing I think will happen is another govt. shutdown and that's likely to land on his head too--another self inflicted wound. I expect he and his party to stop working with House democrats all together over this and they are going to take the blame.

145lriley
Edited: Nov 3, 2019, 8:22am

Anyway if speaking about the deep state' that centers around the intelligence communities such as the CIA and NSA. The State dept. certainly has connections to that because entities like the CIA work through our embassies and embassies will give them cover but hardly everyone employed by the State dept. has any direct connection to the Intelligence community. It's no secret however that Trump is at war with both the intelligence community and the State dept. but FWIW despite all his bullshit to the contrary he's not exactly in good with the Military either. Mattis makes jokes about him--Kelly speaks of him dismissively and many others speaks of him with real disdain. The body language of the head of the Joint Chiefs Gen. Milley in the recent tete-a-tete between Trump and Pelosi was to stare down at a table in shame. And by the way the Military is at least if not more so connected to the Intelligence community so Trump is in conflict there too.

FWIW as well the CIA has done a lot of evil shit. Drug and gun running--undermining foreign govt.'s and their elections--staging coups (which are always right wing friendly)--they coordinate with organized crime, they torture and assassinate, have experimented with mind control. They often run rogue operations. This isn't to say everyone in the CIA is evil but generally speaking as an entity it is evil as are the Russian secret services, as are Mossad and MI5 and 6 and any other number of state secret services.

Intelligence, State, Military all work interdependently with each other--President's can direct these entities as long as they don't divert them off and away from the long range goals that go from one administration to the next and I'm afraid Trump doesn't understand any of this and Russia is a case in point because all of those entities--Intelligence, State (international diplomatic corps) and the Military see Russia as the enemy and have since the end of WWII and that ain't changing any time soon. Helsinki was a fiasco--Syria has been another. Trump tried an end run with Giuliani running a rogue operation against all these institutions of the state and it's not only illegal it's going to bite him in the ass.

146Molly3028
Edited: Nov 3, 2019, 12:55pm

If I were one of Kellyanne's Conway's older children, I would ask
her if I should use her or dad as my role model in life!!!

147margd
Nov 5, 2019, 5:02am

Lev Parnas, Giuliani Associate, Opens Talks With Impeachment Investigators
Ben Protess, Michael Rothfeld and William K. Rashbaum | Nov. 4, 2019

An associate of Rudolph W. Giuliani, Lev Parnas, had previously resisted speaking with investigators for the Democrat-led impeachment proceedings, which are examining the president’s pressure attempts in Ukraine. A former lawyer for Mr. Trump was then representing Mr. Parnas.

But since then, Mr. Parnas has hired new lawyers who contacted the congressional investigators last week to notify them to “direct any future correspondence or communication to us...“We are willing to comply with the subpoena to the extent that it does not violate any appropriate privilege that Mr. Parnas may properly invoke,” said Joseph A. Bondy, who along with Edward B. MacMahon, Jr. now represents Mr. Parnas...given the federal criminal charges, his client may invoke his right under the Fifth Amendment not to incriminate himself...Mr. Parnas was very upset by President Trump’s plainly false statement that he did not know him”...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/nyregion/lev-parnas-giuliani-associate.html

1482wonderY
Nov 5, 2019, 11:27am

The direct line through Parnas - Furtash to Trump.

On Ukraine, Trump Is a Con Man, but He’s Also a Mark

In court last month, a lawyer for Parnas said that some evidence against him could be subject to executive privilege, apparently because his work with Giuliani overlapped with Giuliani’s work for Trump. If that’s true, then Firtash is directly linked to America’s president. The two men may have used each other, but there’s no reason to believe that Trump was the one in control. There was a time when Republicans would be mortified by an American president being manipulated by a figure like Firtash. Lucky for them, they’ve lost the ability to feel shame.

149margd
Nov 5, 2019, 2:25pm

Laurence Tribe tribelaw | 2:01 PM · Nov 5, 2019:
This is no small edit! Sondland has just blown Trump’s story apart, leaving mere shreds of orange skin and slimy fat

Sondland Updates Impeachment Testimony, Describing Ukraine Quid Pro Quo
Michael S. Schmidt | Nov. 5, 2019

In a substantial update to his initial account, Gordon D. Sondland recounted how he told Ukrainian officials military aid was tied to their commitment to investigations President Trump wanted.

The new testimony from Gordon D. Sondland, the ambassador to the European Union, confirmed his involvement in essentially laying out a quid pro quo to Ukraine that he had not acknowledged...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/05/us/politics/impeachment-trump.html

1502wonderY
Nov 5, 2019, 2:47pm

>149 margd: Yeah. Sondland said his memory was "prodded" after reading the other testimonies.

151Molly3028
Edited: Nov 5, 2019, 4:44pm

>148 2wonderY:

During the McCarthy and Nixon eras, GOPers were honorable in
the end because they decided to put country before party. The
hate, resentment, cult and tribal factors that are present in the
Trump era don't give me hope for that outcome this time around.

It is interesting to note that McCarthy was a Wisconsin rep.

152lriley
Nov 5, 2019, 5:50pm

There is a Ukranian commodities trader named Semyon (Sam) Kislin who has links with Giuliani going back into the '90's when Rudy was Mayor of NYC. Kislin also has had longstanding links to Russian mobsters who have used him to launder ill gotten money. Parnas and Fruman link to Kislin too. As of October 14 Kislin has been said to be cooperating with congressional impeachment probes into Giuliani's activities. There doesn't seem to be a lot of stories on this but this might also factor into why Parnas appears to be folding. I don't think he's given a deposition yet either to Schiff's Intelligence committee.

153fuzzi
Edited: Nov 5, 2019, 8:38pm

>124 barney67: thank you.

Pilate asked "What is truth?" as the Truth stood before him.

Truth is waiting, but one has to be open to it, to be willing to put aside popular opinions and groupthink in the quest for it. Sadly, most people won't do that.

154John5918
Nov 6, 2019, 12:22am

>153 fuzzi:

But isn't that why there is a constitutionally mandated impeachment process with procedures, checks and balances, so that "popular opinions and groupthink" do not dominate over and above due process?

155fuzzi
Edited: Nov 7, 2019, 9:28am

>154 John5918: the democrats are not following the impeachment process, that's the problem.

Interesting article I read today:

The left-right divide in America is, unfortunately, unbridgeable.

There are three reasons.

First, we are divided by our vision of what we want America to be.

The right believes the founders’ vision was brilliant and moral, that bourgeois middle-class values are superior to alternative value systems; that rights come from God, not man; and that the state must be as small as possible. The left (not liberals) shares none of those values.

Second, we are divided by the means we use to achieve our vision. Given their different ends, left and right obviously differ on what means to use to achieve their ends.

Third, and perhaps most troubling, there is a reality-perception divide.

Left and right have different perceptions of reality.

I have been aware of this for many years, but it was dramatically brought home last week when I was a guest on “Real Time With Bill Maher.” Given that the other two guests on the panel and more or less the entire studio audience were on the left, their reactions to what I said proved my point.

For example, I said that though there are, of course, racists in the United States, America is the least racist multiethnic and multiracial country in the world.

I was booed.

I said the United States military has brought so much liberty to the world it deserves the Nobel Peace Prize.

I was booed.

Clearly, there is an unbridgeable divide in the way we perceive the reality of the American military’s role in the world.

I said that it turned out the Russia-Trump campaign collusion never happened.

I was booed.

There is an unbridgeable divide in the way left and right perceive this reality.

I said the Trump-Ukrainian president phone transcript did not show a quid pro quo.

I was booed, and one of the other panelists said it actually showed “extortion.”

This, too, constitutes an unbridgeable divide between the way left and right view reality.

I said John Brennan, the former CIA director, has voted communist. (He has admitted that he voted for the Communist Party USA presidential candidate Gus Hall in 1976.) I was dismissed as having made something up. Bill Maher sarcastically responded that he didn’t recall Mao having been on any ballot.

And I said that people on the left say men can menstruate.

For that, I was not merely booed; I was laughed at by the panel, Maher and the audience.

Anyone can Google this and learn that I was entirely right. Just type “can men menstruate.” One of the first results will be from the popular left-wing website The Daily Beast: “Yes, Men Can Have Periods and We Need to Talk About Them,” reads one of its headlines. “How is this possible?” you might ask. Well, if a woman declares herself to be a man, then “a man” can have a period. In fact, last month, Procter & Gamble announced that it will remove the female Venus symbol from its Always line of menstrual products. After all, not only women menstruate.

The irony is that as soon as most progressives become aware that LGBTQ groups say that men menstruate, they will say that men menstruate. And that will be another differing perception of reality.

On each of these issues — all the issues for which I was booed — right and left have different perceptions of reality. That — even more so than differing values — makes the left-right divide unbridgeable. When you cannot agree on what is real, there is no possible bridging of the gulf.

The left believes the president colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election. The reality is that there was no collusion. This is the conclusion of the Mueller report, but still, the left doesn’t accept it.

The left is certain President Trump said the neo-Nazis are “very fine people” when referring to the protesters in Charlottesville, Virginia. The right is certain the president didn’t say there are good neo-Nazis any more than he said there are good “antifa” members. When he said there were “very fine people on both sides,” he was referring to those demonstrating on behalf of keeping Confederate statues and those opposed. See “The Charlottesville Lie” by CNN analyst Steve Cortes.

The left believes socialism is economically superior to capitalism. But the reality is that only capitalism has lifted billions of people out of poverty. This is, therefore, not an opinion divide — “You prefer capitalism. I prefer socialism” — but a reality divide.

The reason this is so frightening is that it means one side has lost its grip on reality. If half of this country cannot distinguish truth from falsehood, that is not a good sign for the nation’s future. On that point, ironically, left and right can agree.


Source: http://www.creators.com/read/dennis-prager/11/19

156John5918
Nov 7, 2019, 12:04am

>155 fuzzi:

fuzzi, see ## 1 and 2 in the continuation of this thread, which would appear to challenge your assertion that "the democrats are not following the impeachment process".

Incidentally, could you cite a reference for that long quote, please? I'd like to follow up on it.

157proximity1
Edited: Nov 7, 2019, 9:58am

>155 fuzzi:


One of the most interesting posts I've read in quite a while at this increasingly dreary "dialogue-of-the-deaf" site (which I think explains the "This topic was continued by ... (iteration No. 3)"). Your comments are too cogent to remain in ready view of the readership, so those who have no good reply to them put up a detour "continuing" it on a fresh page. FUCK THEM!)

Everything you point out rings true to my ears (You ought to include a link to the article, if possible, in your post, above).

There's very ugly divorce going on in American society and, though this is not unique to our time, it has not "always been (quite) this way." True, the country has always had contentious factions and there was even a genuine shooting-and-killing Civil War. Before and since that war there were fierce political fights. True. But around and within them there survived a background in which many otherwise not-friendly fellow-citizens believed in a democratic project which had common elements and interests in it.

The current issue of The Atlantic magazine has an article* in which several of the related aspects of this matter are discussed.

But it's in itself part of something even larger and troubling; modern society, not just the U.S. but in virtually all of the parts of Europe I have traveled or lived in over the past nine years seems to be far along the path of simply giving up on the very idea of a commonly-shared society. People seem to want as little as possible to do with anyone who is unlike them in any way that matters to them. Non-smokers want nothing to do with smokers. One could vary that example almost without end. Many who don't and who won't have children are also almost completely uninterested in other people with children or in their children. They seem to say—and some of them do say— “if I'd wanted to have to deal with children, I'd have had some of my own.”

All these other people and things—they're just so many “nuisances.” Everything and everyone who isn't among one's circle of the elect is “beyond the pale”—and that "pale" marks off an ever-more-confined area—physically, mentally and emotionally. People's “space” is more and more closed and guarded. They don't want to have to been in the company of strangers—even “respectable”-looking strangers and, of course, most of all, they don't want to be in the proximity—let alone in the “company”—of those who don't make it into what they consider to be “respectable.”

The walled-and-gated world of the privileged has invaded the mental space of the “rest of us”, leaving us desiring, wanting, needing and expecting something of the cloistered existence of the rich-and-famous even if that's only on a small-time basis.

As long ago as the 1970s British prime minister Margaret Thatcher asserted “... And, you know, there is no such thing as society.” (1) That notion has now triumphed far beyond what Thatcher's defenders today try to tell us she intended by it. It is embraced in its fullest and most anti-social sense. But here's the truly strange part and the reason that I include this point here: many, very many of such people are fully inside their own liberal cocoon of comfort and they'd no more stop and so much as say "hello" to me, as a street-dwelling homeless person, than prime minister Thatcher would have done—though, when I lived in London while Thatcher was prime minister, I had (at least at first) a job and a rented dwelling place. Today, California-style liberals—who unfortunately can be found almost everywhere today— just "don't want to know."


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* Americans Aren’t Practicing Democracy Anymore | As participation in civic life has dwindled, so has public faith in the country’s system of government | by Yoni Appelbaum | October 2018 Issue

(1)


“I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it: 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society.

“There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.”

158lriley
Edited: Nov 7, 2019, 7:09am

#155--Once again democrats have been following the rules for impeachment that were approved and put in place in 2015 by a republican controlled house and the then republican speaker of the house John Boehner. What was good then when Barack Obama was POTUS is not good now that the Donald is--is that it? The assertion and tears in #155 is nothing but 'Wah! Wah! Wah!'. FWIW though I've detested Bill Maher for a long time and I don't consider him on the left at all. Donald Trump angrily and unhappily walked back his comment of 'good people on both sides' the day after he made that remark and then the day after that he deliberately walked it forward again. Case fucking closed. He knew exactly what he meant and pretty much everyone else does too. He has no issue with White Nationalism whether it comes in the robes of the Ku Klux Klan or any other racist group. His actions against Muslims and Latin Americans is another large tell on this. He targets groups for his fan voting base.

On the subject of capitalism/socialism. Capitalism is not lifting billions of people out of poverty. That is just dumb. Take a look around--there are millions and millions of people in the United States who are homeless or swamped by debt. Millions of others working low wage, no benefit, no future jobs--some two or three of them at a time. Poverty is all around you and wherever you go. There are a whole lot more people in the shit than not. Meanwhile this nut in the white house gave corporations and the richest people in the country a huge tax cut so they can be ever so much wealthier. The Occupy movement glaringly pointed that out during the Obama years. They are the few---the rest of us are the many.

By the way and by far the majority of democrats in congress do not have a socialist bone in their bodies. It's unfortunate but true.

159fuzzi
Nov 7, 2019, 9:30am

>156 John5918: >157 proximity1: since I have two people already asking about the source (a quick "google" for the first line was successful) I'll repost it on the new thread.

Source added.
This topic was continued by Impeachment, Indictment, 25th Amendment 3.