The Red and The Black - Stendahl Group Read

The Red and the Black by Stendal


The first quarter group read. Everyone is welcomed to join in reading this classic. When Henri Beyle, later known as Stendhal, was born in France 1783, France was on the brink of a era of social and political change. These events occurred during his life time; The Revolution of 1789, The Reign of Terror, the beheadings of the monarchy, the rise and fall of Napoleon.

So this book will cover options in our bingo card this year for historical events, writer using a pen name.

1. If you're reading along; which book or audio will you be reading? Who is the translater of your edition?

2. Do you agree that The Red and the Black is "too wordy and too misanthropic for wide popularity" as the Chicago Daily Tribune put it in 1899? Hasn't time shown this criticism to be wrong?

3. Is the critic George Staintsbury right when he says about Julien, "You never sympathize with him for one moment"? If this is correct, why do we care to read on about Julien?.

4. Could one extract from this novel an answer to the question "what is this thing called love"? Is it biological, socially constructed, mere lust, empathy with another person, a by-product of ambition, or an attempt to win a trophy?

5. Can you think of a human activity, trait, or virtue that Stendhal unequivocally admires?

(Questions were taken from Barnes & Nobles Classic book.)

So, I haven't started yet, but I hope it will be soon. I have a book, The Barnes and Nobles Classic. I also have an audio version of The Red and the Black narrated by: Bill Homewood.

Thanks for setting up the thread, I had completely forgotten about this. I've got a French version of this lying around somewhere...

I might be interested in reading The Red and the Black as a group read... However, since I (haha) have never heard of this novel or the author before, I went to look for some opinions, and it seems that it has a pretty strong political focus and a few people who tried it struggled to get beyond the first hundred pages. I was just wondering if someone who read it could tell me if the story drags? For reference, while I thoroughly enjoyed The Count of Monte Cristo, I only enjoyed the last 40% of The Hunchback of Notre Dame which was not plagued by Victor Hugo's obsession with architecture.

I am pretty sure this book will be political considering the time period in which it is set in France. It's rather long. The questions above, show that others have felt that it is wordy. But it also addresses issues of social climbing, love (lust, ambition).

Well, I suppose I could try it, if I can find the time next month. I've already checked and my e-library has a copy of it with the translation by Burton Raffel.

I downloaded two Kindle versions, but they were both ancient translations, Scott Moncrieff and Horace B Samuel, so I returned them and kept looking. The latest translation is by Burton Raffel, but it looks as though he's translated it into contemporary American English, so that's out. I've ordered the Oxford World's Classics edition, translated by Catherine Slater, from the library, so I hope it will get here in time for me to start with you.

>6 Majel-Susan: I will be interested to hear what you think of the translation. I am happy to read American English when the author is American and writing a book set in America, but otherwise it jars.

My Barnes & Noble Classic is translated by Horace B Samuel. The introduction is by Bruce Robbins

>7 pamelad: Hmm... I had not considered the different translations, but now that I've looked it up, it seems there aren't a lot of good reviews for Raffel's translation. My only other option would be Horace B Samuel's on Project Gutenberg... On the other hand though, it could be fun comparing the different translations and hence, different interpretations of the same passage.

I'm not sure if I'll be able to join the group read, but I am definitely here for the translation-comparison chat! :)

I've made it about a third of the way. The book is more a blend of romanticism and political satire so it really hasn't been too heavy politically so far. The title red and black tells of Julien's choices of military or priest. And like a Roulette wheel is red and black it could go either way.

Why is this book on the 1001 Books list and others? I read that this book is a book that crosses from one century to the next and is also one of the first psychological observation novels. It reportedly inspired Flaubert and Zola.

The author reportedly considered himself a scientist of love; passion, physical, vanity and stylish. Do you agree?

The author used third person narrator who is very present during the unfolding, making various commentaries including sarcasm. The Author is probably the narrator and is most closely aligned with Julien.

Ooh! I've been pretty busy this week and haven't got started yet, but I'm glad to hear it hasn't been overly political. I hope to be able to add some comments soon though, once I can finally find some time to get down to it. (:

I've finished the book. I found the book to be interesting look at post reformation France. It has a historical aspect but also a character study, an examination of love, the church, and politics in France. It is not heavy on politics, yet it is there. It can be handy to know a little bit about the history of France but not necessary. The book is about hypocrisy.

Love: The author reportedly considered himself a scientist of love; passion, physical, vanity and stylish. Do you agree? I do not think he was an expert on love. But he certainly did explore passion, physical, vanity and stylish displays in the book. He created many triangles but the main one would be Julien, Madame de Re'nal, and Mathilde.

Religion: The book is set in post reformation France. During the reformation, France was divided with French Huguenots (Protestants) who left the Church of Rome. Curé Chélan and Abbé Pirard are religious men with integrity, the first is removed from his position and the second is surrounded by enemies, persecuted for his Jansenism. Like Pope Adrian VI, they are incapable of blocking the deterioration of the Church, and remain only a negation of it. Julien is not a believer but still sees a career in the church as viable option.

War:
The French people had no established rights and the king had all the power over government, economy, and the church. Catherine de Medicis is mentioned int he book, as well as Napoleon, or a recollection of Robespierre. So it is a historical novel as well as a satirical novel.

I just started this morning and am currently on Chapter 8. Julien is not showing himself a very pleasant fellow so far, and judging from the question above, I suspect that he is not meant to be an especially pleasant sort. I do also rather think that Madame de Rênal's "naiveté" is leading her to behave really a touch too forward.

I was floundering in chapter 1, because the voice of the narrator is so intrusive. So I went back to the introduction and was suprised to find that this book was written and published in 1830, since the subtitle of my copy is "Une chronique de 1830" (a Chronicle of 1830). So Stendhal is writing a book about one year that had not even ended when it appeared in print. I'll be interested to see how much the July Revolution plays a part in proceedings. The first chapters with their description of small town life in the province remind me very much of Zola's Plassans.

>15 MissWatson: Ooh! You are actually reading it in the original French? Haha, you have the best version of us all.

In Chapter 8-9, I'm not sure why Julien is so determined to play along with Madame de Rênal's infatuation by insisting on holding her hand and then saying to himself in the morning, as my translation puts it in Chapter 9:

As he descended the stairs, he told himself, casually: "I have to tell this woman I love her."

It seems pretty obvious to me that he holds her in high contempt, probably along with every other breathing person he has ever met, with the exception of the surgeon-major and Father Chélan.

And I'm assuming that though personally indifferent to her, he is not entirely oblivious to her feelings for him, seeing as he knows that she wants to hear that he loves her and also he has no difficulty in using her to save his portrait of Napoleon?

Also, I'm wondering when Madame de Rênal is finally going to wake up and see what an ugly garden path her infatuation is leading her down. This Julien fellow isn't even remotely nice, and I might even say that he is worse than her own husband. I personally find the guy heartless, manipulative, and spiteful.

>17 Majel-Susan: I think it's Julien not knowing his place. He is working class and a paid servant to boot, so he's overstepping the line with this familiarity.

I have reached chapter 18 and find myself grateful for the notes. I had no idea how much of this is based on real events and Stendhal's memories of his childhood in Grenoble where his father was mayor. Even Julien is based on a real person, Antoine Berthet.
Julien comes across like a teenager, with some fixed ideas in his head, very full of himself and self-centred. Stendhal always tells us things about his characters, he never lets us see for ourselves. There's little actual conversation going on,m showing us how they think, we are given just fragments of their thoughts, never a full argument or deliberation. I find this unsatisfactory.

>18 MissWatson: I realise Julien is overstepping the boundaries, but what got me was the question of what for, especially as he did not strike me as at all in love with Madame de Rênal, at least not before the actual infidelity begins in Chapter 15. I'm not sure what I'm missing, but Julien seems to have a thing about defying people just for the sake of somehow defeating them in his mind, even if he is not actually inclined to "do what it takes."

I've recently stopped at Chapter 18, as well, but I will probably get back to it soon some time this week...

It seems to me that Stendhal is not telling us enough about Julien's motivation, or even where he comes from, mentally. His adoration of Bonaparte is only mentioned indirectly, as in not wanting to get caught with the books about him, but so far I haven't learned where he picked this up (presumably from the distant relative who lived with the Sorel family). Neither do I have a clear idea of what exactly he has been studying with the priest, Chélan, and why. Right now I think that, like so many adolescents, he wants to be famous and since the military road (from Caporal to Emperor, like Bonaparte) is not available in the current climate, he chose the only other option open to lower class men( if they can pay for the necessary education), that is the church. The first chapters are very frustrating, they are short, do not provide sufficient background to understand our characters and quite often the new one jumps ahead in time without giving us an idea what happened in between.

>7 pamelad: Although I ordered the Oxford World's Classics edition from the library, they sent the Penguin edition, with Roger Gard translating. I'll see how it goes.

I have finished the first book and find Julien's time at the seminary as baffling as the first chapters. Again, he is a fish out of water, as the other seminarists are described as poor farmer's sons who are in it for the good food and decent clothes, while his father is a rich sawmill owner – not an impression we get from his time at the Rênals. The director of the seminary is isolated because he is a Jansenist, but there is no debate of theology to give us an idea what this means. Was this such common knowledge among Stendhal's contemporaries that he didn't need to explain it?

And then there's the final chapter where he visits Mme de Rênal for the last time. Frankly, this affair with the ladder reminded me too much of Bavarian peasant comedies, where "fensterln" (climbing into your lover's bedroom by means of a ladder) is a trope. Ah well, on we go to Paris.

I've been studying some World History with one of my granddaughters which makes some of the books I have been reading a bit more engaging. They were a group of French Catholics who believed in salvation by God's grace and followed some of the Calvinist teachings. The other religious group being the Huguenots.

I found the whole climbing a ladder to the bedroom a bit unbelievable and comic.

>24 Kristelh: Well, the other priests/teachers at the seminary all side with the Bishop but I can't really decide if he's an ultramontanist (ie faithful to Rome and the Pope) or a Gallicanist, and I wonder how Pirard clung on to his post under these circumstances. Unless it is the protection of the Marquis de la Mole, who's only been hovering in the background til now.

I am eight chapters into Book 2, and it feels like a different book. There's a sense of time passing chronologically, things happening, and Julien is growing and developing as a person. And we have conversations at last!

I started yesterday and have reached the end of chapter 18. >17 Majel-Susan: I have the impression that Julien knows nothing about the world and is using the writings of Bonaparte as a guide to his behaviour. He sees the conquest of Mme de Rênal as akin to a victory of the peasants over the aristocrats.

>21 MissWatson: Maybe to admire Bonaparte is natural for Julien, as a peasant with ambition. Julien is keeping this admiration secret because the Church supports the Monarchy and he might want to be a cleric. He's a hypocrite. Also, the wealthy people fear another uprising involving men like Julien, educated peasants, so to get on he has to allay their suspicions.

>27 pamelad: agree that he is a hypocrite. Mostly he is self serving and looking for the easiest way to climb socially.

I have finished the book and can't say that I liked it very much, mostly because I can't figure out what Stendhal was trying to achieve here.

I got sidetracked by something while reading, and then I got busy studying for exams, and then I decided I quit. I have a feeling though that I probably didn't miss much...

>30 Majel-Susan: No, you definitely didn't miss much. I had expected more from this.