Team Edward, Team Jacob or Team Switzerland?

Which group do you belong to? If you read the twilight series you should have already decided what side your'e on. Wanna talk about it? BTW, I'm team edward.

Your challenge is not appropriate for this Group. Please choose any of the dozens of Twilight-fetish groups that are already in progress. Thank you.

Not appropriate? I'm not sure I would go that far.. There are a lot of Twilight fan groups that have this same topic but this is Book Talk :) So I dont see any harm done. By the way Im post wolfy Jacob lol..

Im on Team Edward, of course!

I'm Team Find-Another-Book-To-Read. Instead of Reading That One Over and Over Again. It's not the only good book in the world, people.

ETA spelling.

Im kinda shocked at how rude some people have been on this thread. The person who started this post must really like the book just like a lot of people do. There are a lot of books other than this one that I love to discuss because they were so good. I dont think it's very nice to be snotty just because you tired of hearing about a book. You didnt have to resond to the the post at all. #2 & #6

This is a really great website & I just think people should be respectfull of others even if they dont agree with their opinion.

It isn't so much that we're tired of hearing about a book. It's that we've already had so many threads on EXACTLY this same theme. Why can't those who are interested go comment, vote, discuss on the threads that already exist? Why must every person who has an opinion on Twilight start a new thread? It clutters up everything, and it also is sort of a negative reflection on Twilight fans.

Edited to add: #2 was not being rude at all. Just stating facts. #6 was perhaps a little rude, but it also sounds tired - as in tired of being bombarded by new threads on old topics.

I liked that the original poster was a *bit* more interesting than others I've seen - not just "OMG Edward is sooooo HOT and Bella is so lucky!!!!!" I didn't know if "Team Switzerland" was a Twilight reference or a joke, as I haven't read any of the books or seen the movie. I usually skip the Twilight talk topics for just that reason -- that I haven't read the books -- but that Switzerland piqued my curiosity a little.

But yes, there are Groups devoted to the series, and earlier threads in Book Talk devoted to the series, and just going to the work pages and clicking on "Conversations" would enable Twilight fans to find active Talk threads, find each other, and share their obsession WITHOUT starting new threads.

What bothers me about many of the Twilight threads is that the fans who start them usually aren't interested in any kind of discussion. It's Team Edward/Team Jacob, some squealing about how great Twilight is, or how much they hate Twilight haters. They're just looking for people to agree with them.

Twilight fans can also be incredibly rude to those who don't like Twilight, even if these people give clear, understandable reasons why they don't like the novels rather than just bashing them. Fans also seldom make reasonable arguments as to why dissenters might be wrong. One reviewer likened the Twilight series to a drug. Given the reaction of most of the fans to this series, I agree. It's disturbing.

I must admit I have OCD (obsessive cullen disorder). I agree that it is like a drug and becomes very addictive. I'm sorry if us Twilight lovers like to talk nothing but Twilight but when you like something, you want to share it with everyone which I think is a great thing.

I've always been a lover of books but when I had my little girl I didn't have time or rather make time to read. But after reading Twilight it ignited my passion for reading again and now I'm back reading a book a week. So I'm hoping the same affect has occured for other readers - particularly young teens. I'd rather see mass teens hunched over Twilight then roaming the streets and getting into trouble!

So in short, the response Twilight fans have to all suggestions that they use existing groups for their discussions comes down to, "We don't want to."

I don't think Twilight discussions themselves are bad ravenblue, it's the fact that most of them are so one-dimensional, sometimes senseless, and hostile to anyone with a different opinion. Even 'team Jacob' fans get ripped apart.

It'd be great if teens would read more and I'm glad that it got you reading again. It's just that it depicts such an unhealthy relationship. Bella's shy with really low self-esteem, but rather than learning to accept herself and become more confident, she can only be rescued from her pathetic weakness by a beautiful and strong man. It's like feminism never happened.

I've sent Tim a message asking for clarification about this group's purpose. Unless he changes the description to "a catch-all for book-related discussions with the specific exception of Twilight", I think message #2 is way out of line. It doesn't matter that you're tired of Twilight; surprisingly, the site wasn't created just for you.

I have to add: I think the fact that established members are frequently so unwelcoming to newcomers reflects a lot more poorly on the site than the Twilight discussions. Someone who has just joined the site may not be aware of all the groups, and may make the apparently mistaken assumption that Book Talk is the place to talk about books (gasp!).

As far as I'm concerned, it's the selfish and unwelcoming attitudes that aren't appropriate in this group, which is likely to be the first place a new user would look.

OK, fine. Post a message on facebook announcing that every single teenage girl on the planet is welcome to post an Edward/Cullen popularity thread on LibraryThing. Lord knows we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings by asking - even politely - that they look for threads already established.

Every lover of Star Trek should start his or her own thread on Book talk without resorting to any Star Trek groups. The Green Dragon should be dismantled and everyone should do their own fantasy thing on Book talk. Why bother with groups at all, if we can't point newbies to their existance?

There's a huge difference between saying "You might be interested in this other group" and saying "Your challenge is not appropriate in this group". There was no polite asking, just telling--and not even telling the truth. This is the default group for book discussion; discussion of books is appropriate here.

Personally, I'm happy to click the ignore button on any topic I don't want to see.

At the risk of upsetting anyone, what is it with Twilight? I've only heard of it from LT threads, which I rarely read, but from what I gather:

Twilight attracts a lot of "fangirls".

There is a girl called Bella and a boy called Edward in it. I think Edward is a vampire and Bella is not.

Some people think that there is something a bit sad about the way Edward treats Bella and the kind of girls who could think that behaviour is "hot".

There is another bloke, Jacob, and if you don't lust after Edward, then you lust after him.

No teenage boys seem to lust after Bella.

Now I've got this Switzerland-thing to contend with and I'm confused. Who lusts after Switzerland?

I lust after Switzerland, but what's this Switzerland-thing?

Robert

ETA I see. Never mind.

You see what I mean - it's all too much ;)

I meant that I wasn't sure if Switzerland was male, female, animal, vegetable or mineral.

It was my impression that the OP was not, in fact, discussing the book, but rather personal reactions to certain characters - reactions that usually have little to do with the book, but rather the cuteness of the actors that portray them.

The first sentence in #2 was a bit abrupt, but the second sentence : Please choose any of the dozens of Twilight-fetish groups that are already in progress. is basically polite.

I honestly try to be friendly to everyone. (Most of the time - I have lapses) I've tried to help newbies understand the workings of the site, and entered enthusiastically to their questions and suggestions for conversation wherever I can. I'm not a mean person. But sometimes, when I see another Edward/Cullen thread my deep sigh turns into a bit a expressed frustration. I humbly beg pardon.

But, seriously, there are tons of Twilight Groups where you will get lots of enthusiastic discussion on your poll if you would but look.

>20 Moomin_Mama: Team Switzerland is the "I can't make up my mind" group.

(Why do I know this? Why?)

I thought perhaps Team Switzerland was the group for people who prefer smooth, creamy chocolate and yummy cheese to abusive, controlling man-boys. I'm all in favor of that.

The term 'Twilight-fetish' is not exactly polite. Any time you have to qualify your statement with 'basically', there's probably some cause for worry.

I've seen members be very polite and helpful while pointing Twilight posters toward the appropriate groups/threads - but not in this thread.

I'm not a fan of Twilight. I have issues with its messages, its prose, its characters, its plot (or lack thereof), and any other number of things. But for all the complaining about the rudeness of Twilight fans, I've seen the /anti/Twilight fans - presumably adults - be just as rude on LT.

We create this community. We teach others how to behave with our own behavior. We model what we want to see. If we're dismissive and rude to young (or not so young) readers who are fixated on a book we don't like, there's no reason they should change their own behavior.

And as an aside the Jacob/Edward debates were raging long before the movie was so much as a blip on the radar. Whatever you think about the books, these readers /are/ engaged with the /text/ - and that, at least, is a good thing in my book.

I am 31 years of age and my friends who are also of the same age or above love the Twilight series. I find it interesting that people feel that it doesn't project a politically correct message re: insecure teenage girls. I never thought of that the whole time I read it. It made me feel like a teenager again and brought back memories of how I would feel having a crush on a super hot guy....weren't we all insecure teenagers who had crushes on super hot guys at one time in our lives??? show me a teenager who isn't insecure? I found the book to be a harmless romance novel with the basic premise of a girl being swept off her feet by her prince charming. I think alot of people are more angry at the hype rather than the book itself.
(by the way, I live in Australia so I'm always goint to be late in responding to discussions due to the time difference).

Well considering the average age of a Twilight fangirl, you'd think they would grasp the concept of chat rooms or BBSes and do a bit of searching before posting. I mean, isn't using the internet one of their fundamental skills? However, most of them have also an instilled sense of entitlement and don't really care if they disrupt or break the rules - just look at the old geezers scatter. Not all, but many. I've observed this over and over here and elsewhere and am glad the red x exists. Go read and froth elsewhere children.

yeah, I'm cranky and the vicodin hasn't kicked in yet.

wow.....I think its time to let go Bookmarque. How about you go get some sunshine and lighten up a little. change is good and inevitable.

so...let's talk books! whether it be the twilight series or something else. just finished reading midnight sun (4th book in twilight series) via stephenie meyers web page and I found it gave great insight into Edwards character. makes me wonder what Twilight would have been like if it was originally written in the third person. what do you guys think?

Change is not the issue. Peaceful integration into LT society doesn't seem to be something many twilighters are capable of and I think you'll find that THAT is the basic reason for irritation here. Oh and drop the condescending tone please. I'm not trying to start anything, but that is really not helping.

People automatically tell them to go away, and then complain that they're not integrating into LT society? That's a bit rich.

ravenblue @25
At 23, I have to say I find that plot too juvenile. For this reason I didn't read past Twilight, although I've learnt plenty about the series through reviews and asking fans. I was, and still am, a fairly insecure person, but I've always thought I should be the one to change, either by improvement or acceptance. I never thought I would be a better person just because a man thought I was pretty and loved me obsessively.

It is an attractive fantasy, for teens and older women though, and I won't lie and say I haven't had it myself. But I think it can be poisonous and it'd be better if Bella believed she could save herself rather than believe she was doomed unless Edward saved her.

One particularly good review made the following point:
"Some things, it seems, are even harder to kill than vampires. The traditional feminine fantasy of being delivered from obscurity by a dazzling, powerful man, of needing to do no more to prove or find yourself than win his devotion, of being guarded from all life's vicissitudes by his boundless strength and wealth -- all this turns out to be a difficult dream to leave behind. Vampires have long served to remind us of the parts of our own psyches that seduce us, sapping our will and autonomy, dragging us back into the past. And they walk among us to this day."
If you want to read it: http://www.salon.com/books/review/2008/07/30/Twilight/index1.html

Zoe, you missed the point. Again. So one last time. The rogue twilighters have been asked, many times, politely, to check out one of the many groups devoted to their chosen reading material. Many refuse and insist on posting threads everywhere and anywhere. They are met with resistance, jibes and derailments, but they refuse to back down. THIS is what I mean by not integrating well. The Star Wars, Star Trek, King and Potter fans get it. Why can't the Twilighters get it?

I don't want them to leave, I just don't want to have to wade through Edward or Jacob (squee!) threads constantly. It defeats the purpose of having groups and makes for an unmanageable talk page. It's also belligerent, which doesn't endear them to the nons.

Okay, I get some of it, but not the Edward vs. Jacob issue. Is it a love triangle?

I'm not being sarcastic, I am interested.

Mama: some (most) fans choose up sides as to who is hotter, Edward or Jacob.

I agree with Bookmarque (I'm sure you're shocked), but I do see one aspect we haven't mentioned. We as regulars react to the constant bombardment of twilighters with frustration because we ask and ask and ask them to go to a group. What we might forget is that a lot of these fans are one-time drop ins who didn't see the other requests. We're saying, "Not again. How many times do I have to say it?" but the twilighters haven't seen the other requests because they don't follow up on posts.

I have actually tried a couple times to comment in a friendly fashion to some of these threads and been told I was rude because "I don't know you. What are you doing in our conversation?" They don't understand that the Book Talk and the Site Talk groups are public. The train runs in both directions.

@25:
I find it frankly terrifying that a generation of girls is growing up thinking that Twilight models a healthy relationship. Bella has no sense of self, especially the farther she goes in her obsession with Edward; her self-identity is completely bound up n her relationship to him. She loses interest in friends, school, etc--it's all about him. It's obsessive, hugely codependent, and completely unhealthy. Edward displays a huge number of red flags to abusive behavior (possessive, jealous, stalking her, watching her sleep, completely controlling, moody, etc), and by the end of the first book, is thinking of ways to off himself in the event that Bella dies. How is that a healthy romantic relationship?

As to the general issue:
The issue as I see it is that the Twilighters come in with cheerleading outfits on, and don't start any real discussion of the book--they just want "isn't it fabulous!" or "Jascob is so hot!" kind of responses. That's why BTers feel hostile toward them--they're not trying to talk about books, they're just gushing to the fan club.

The rogue twilighters have been asked, many times, politely, to check out one of the many groups devoted to their chosen reading material.

You may not have figured this out, but the Twilight fans are individuals. Asking one of them to go somewhere else doesn't count as asking all of them. The OP in this thread, for instance, had just created her account that day.

Many refuse and insist on posting threads everywhere and anywhere. They are met with resistance, jibes and derailments, but they refuse to back down.

Please explain to me again why Twilight fans shouldn't be allowed to post in the catch-all group for book discussions.

Also, maybe you can take a valuable lesson from this: jibes and derailments are not the best way to get people to do what you want. When Twilight fans encounter resistance, jibes, and derailments everywhere, no wonder there are issues.

The reason there aren't many Book Talk threads about Harry Potter or Star Wars now is because those books are old. Before Deathly Hallows came out, there were plenty of HP discussions here.

One Twilight thread a week does not make Talk unmanageable, except for the particularly intolerant.

I have actually tried a couple times to comment in a friendly fashion to some of these threads and been told I was rude because "I don't know you. What are you doing in our conversation?"

I just don't think it's right to punish new users for something other people did. Some people are jerks, both Twilight fans and non-fans; I'm not denying it. But the OP here did nothing wrong, and shouldn't be punished just because she likes Twilight. Or should we treat all Muslims badly as a response to 9-11?

I have to say - this is Book talk. Twilight is a book. This isn't random meaningless chatter, it's chatter about characters in a book. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed to post in a group explicitly for talking about books.

Duly red-xed. So much for reason.

I'm just going to say straight off that picking "Team Edward" or "Team Jacob" isn't talking about the characters, it's gushing. There's no discussion involved. If you want to actually have a discussion, then yes, I think this is the group for it. If you only want to pick sides and rave about whether "cold, marble-like Edward" is better/worse than "Jacob-the-werewolf-shapeshifter", that's what the Twilight fan groups are for. That's also why people get irritated. No one wants to to discuss the pros or cons of the books, they just drool over the guys and how lucky Bella is.

Now, if you want to get into an actual discussion, there was one going on here. Don't let the name fool you. It started off as a place to rant about Twilight but evolved into an interesting debate over why Twilight is good/bad, whether or not Edward was abusive, and what sort of views it portrays to young women. It's been dead for a little while, but I'm sure it would welcome a revival.

I'm not sure why debate about the characters wouldn't count as discussion. I'd think it's as likely as any other thread to discuss whether Edward is abusive; picking sides involves both pointing out the good things about the side you're on and pointing out the flaws with the other side.

But when you say "I'm Team Edward!!!!!" you're not pointing out any of Jacob's flaws, you're just raving about Edward. Same thing when people say "Bella soooooooooooooo should have been with Jacob instead!!!!" That's not discussion.

Now, if you were to say something along the lines of "Here's why I find Edward an undesirable, controlling bastard:

He is 100 years old and stalking a 17 year old high school girl. He creeps into her bedroom at night and watches her sleep. Now, if any 30 year old guy were to do this, no one would think it was romantic. But he's oh so gorgeous and can get away with it.

He constantly, consistently tells Bella what to do. She cannot go to the college of her choice. Remember that scene in the third book, first chapter? She's filling out college applications and wants to go to Dartmouth, but he disagrees. Rather than talking over the choice with her like a rational man, he instead forges her name onto another school application. He once again isn't letting her make her own decisions.

He won't let her even have her own pickup. She likes her pickup, but he wants her to have a fancy car, so they agree that once the pickup stops working, she'll let him buy her a car. Now, I know it's not specifically stated in the text, but it is strongly hinted that he did something to her car to make it not work, and the occurred immediately after their conversation. Why? How on earth does that pickup affect their relationship? That pickup is hers, not his, and he has absolutely no right to make a decision like that.

Here's why I hate Bella:

She is the epitome of everything anti-feminist. She cannot function without a man by her side. In New Moon, when Edward leaves her, she goes nearly catatonic. She's known the guy for a year and he struggles daily not to kill her. I just don't think this is an appropriate action.

So what does she do to get out of her depression, she goes to another man: Jacob. She hangs out with Jacob almost everyday, all day, and that is the only thing that heals "the pain in her chest" because she's just such a weak female that without her man, she's nothing. Then, when she's placed in a life-threatening situation and hears Edward's voice in her head, she doesn't question her sanity. Instead, she jumps of a cliff to hear his voice again.

On top of that, Bella has no personality. I have absolutely no idea what she likes besides Edward. Sure, she likes Claire de Lune, conveniently Edward's favorite piece of piano music. She likes the mix CD that Edward gave her, but we're never told what band it is. She cooks for her father, but what kind of food does she like?

I know she liked her pickup but what a shame! Edward took that away!

Now here's why I don't like the writing style:

It's simple, which isn't bad, but it's also repetitive. Every other paragraph is Bella going on and on about handsome Edward is or how his kiss relieves some pain in her chest she didn't know was there. I could handle it in the first book, but it never stops! It continues on into the next three books and it makes me want to hit my head against the wall."

Now, I've given you clear reasons as to why I do not like Twilight. If you want to respond with what you do like about it, then we can have a discussion. In fact, I look forward to it.

Coming back after noticing how many more posts this thread has... I was more rude than I intended to be in #6. I am indeed very tired of this "debate," but looking back I could have been more tactful and intend to be in future.

Personally, I liked the first book. I wasn't expecting it to be Shakespeare, just a good fantasy for an afternoon. I liked the world that Meyer had created, a little bit offbeat from the usual vampire fare. (Also, if you read Midnight Sun you have more sympathy for Edward and he's not creepy.)

The second one was also very good, if you can get past the author intervention in the beginning. The scene where she first sees Edward near the end of the book hit hard, and the Volturi fascinated me.

After that, the plots started to bother me. It was so obvious that the characters weren't causing anything, just the author saying "Hm, and now I'll have this happen," to the point of characters suddenly changing intrinsic opinions for no reason between chapters for the sake of conflict or romance. And it was in the third book that Edward really started to freak me out... tampering with her truck to keep her from being able to visit Jacob and whatnot. Having Alice literally kidnap her to keep her away from Jacob on weekends when Edward was away.

I just started Breaking Dawn, but it is very difficult for me to read because the plot is so... fanfic-y, and reused from who knows how many other works.

However, I'm also reading The Host, her adult sci-fi/romance, and all those problems are almost non-existent. It makes me wonder how much she's aware of doing in her YA books.

I also recently found out that she is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, or the Mormons, and I'm curious as to how that informs her writing.

I can definitely understand why people love Twilight, and I too would welcome an in-depth discussion.

I'm glad this thread produced such a good discussion. What I'd like to read now though is a comment from a die-hard fan of the series about whether or not they'd like to have a boyfriend like Edward. Not a glittery vampire of course, but someone who they see as far more beautiful and accomplished than they are and who will take care of them in the same way Edward 'takes care' of Bella. Or is that just as much a fantasy as having a vampire boyfriend - something you enjoy reading about but don't want for yourself.

Any takers? I'm not very hopeful though - I doubt the die-hard fans will read the posts in this thread. Perhaps I should risk posting this question in one of the Twilight groups.

42, if you do post it in a Twilight group be sure to let me know where, because I'd like to see the answer as well. :)

Edited to compensate for sausage fingers.

Firstly I'd like to apologise to Bookmarque...sorry, I found I was rather being condescending after I re-read what I wrote.
Secondly, yeeeaaahhhh we are finally talking about the Twilight BOOK! I love reading about other peoples views on the characters ie Edward being controlling etc because when I read the Twilight series I not once saw it that way. Now that you bring it to my attention I can see where you're coming from but don't necessarily agree and don't think that was Stephenie Meyers intention by any means. Let's face it, if Bella just said "yeah, he's cute but I'm doing my own thing" we wouldn't have a book. Remember people that it is a romance and to emphasise the love they have for each other she had to make Bella go weak at the knees for him and see only him and make Edward possessive and care a little too much eg wanting to replace her truck because he sees it as a death trap. Also remember that he is a super strong, nothing can hurt him, never die guy and he can see how easy humans can be hurt/injured or die. Because he loves Bella so much he wants to protect her.
When I was reading it I kept seeing it as a modern day Romeo and Juliet - instead of family keeping them apart it was the vampire issue. This is a love story people!! and love makes people do crazy things!

It is possible to be romantic, without one partner being a doormat. You're right - there has to be conflict to make a story. But I've read plenty of stories where the woman is strong and forthright and determined. You can "go weak at the knees" without going weak in the head! :-)

Lauren asks a good question in #42. Could you deal with a boyfriend like that in Real Life?

Meyers knows her audience, but I wish she didn't play so much on a teenage girl's desperation for "love." I remember my own feelings at that age. I was so afraid no boy would ever love me, that I would have put up with Edward's behavior. But it would have been good if girls like me could read a great romantic novel where the character learns she could be strong and lovable.

>45 MerryMary:

I think this is why I loved Robin McKinley so much when I was younger. You want hot guys? Oh, she's got 'em. Magic? Yup. Awesome women who turn out to be special? Definitely.

Also character, depth, strength, flaws, struggles, and a relationship that burns both good and bad and finally settles into something wonderful. I pushed Hero and the Crown and The Blue Sword at my 13 year old cousin when she finished Twilight - she liked them, so they must still hold weight!

I've also recently read Wake (and the sequel, Fade), which also gets into special powers and ordinary girls who turn out to be really unique, and which also has a romance that sucked me in - I liked it a lot. It's another I'd recommend to teens who like Twilight.

Ok, for anyone who's interested I just posted my question of whether or not Twilight fans want their own Edward on one of the Twilight boards.

http://www.librarything.com/topic/62147

I also invited them to this discussion, but asked that they be civil, as I imagine some of them will be infuriated when they read some of the posts here :)

Re: msg 44

I find that how we relate/react to characters has alot to do with our own personal experiences. See I found Bella to be a strong female character in that she was able to get over her insecurities enough to go for the man she wanted.

I see myself to have similar insecurities when it comes to men ie liking a guy but not thinking I was good enough therefore never pursued the guy/relationship. So I actually take my hat off to Bella because she went for it!

Therefore I see that her character can also have a positive message, why not go for "Mr Perfect" which is how Edward is portrayed.

Re: question: "Could you deal with a boyfriend like that in Real Life?" - if I had the intense love that Bella had for Edward then yes. He never intentionally hurt her, if anything thats what he was trying to avoid throughout the book eg trying to leave her to avoid her being in danger.

(I have also copied this response onto http://www.librarything.com/topic/62147)

I think the tension between intense love and the inherent danger in a relationship can make for an interesting story, and a 'real life' version of that could be dealt with, but do you really want a partner that controlling?

Also having the guts to go for Mr Perfect is one thing, but Edward remains Mr Perfect and Bella is not his equal. It's only his love and devotion that makes her a better person, it seems. When he leaves her, she loses the only thing that makes her worthwhile.

Re: 49

mmmm...you've got me thinking.

Ok, here it goes.

Re: is Edward controlling? - no and yes... I don't think he means to be because he only has Bellas best interests at heart, he wants to take care of her/protect her. However, in Breaking Dawn I didnt like how he wanted to knock her out so he could abort the baby - that was taking away her choice. But Bella didn't let him control her then, she took matters into her own hands to ensure she kept her baby. So when it comes down to it Bella didn't let him control her life. She made alot of decisions on her own.

Re: What makes Bella a better person - Bella is revealed as a strong, caring person at the start of the book ie taking care of her mother/moving to forks to ensure her mothers happiness. And throughout the series she steps upto the plate to helpout thoughs she loves. eg lying to her father re: leaving Folks to avoid him getting attacked by vampires, going to the dance studio alone to save her mother etc.. And I think this is what makes her a better person, not her love Edward.

I don't think he means to be because he only has Bellas best interests at heart, he wants to take care of her/protect her.

He hits her because he loves her? Maybe because (since he is super-powerful and all-knowing) he knows what is best for her? Is that what you are saying?

>44 ravenblue:, I'd be wary about comparing this to Romeo and Juliet. Shakespeare didn't write that play with the intention of making us swoon at the star-crossed lovers but rather as a message. He was saying "Don't act like this. Think before you rush into love or bad things are going to happen." How we view Romeo and Juliet nowadays must be making Shakespeare roll over in his grave.

>49 inkspot:, I agree with you completely. Edward is always put on a pedestal that Bella will never be able to get to except by completely forsaking everything she is and becoming a vampire (like Edward). I think this happened in the second book, but she sees a picture of herself and Edward and realizes how ugly she is in comparison. How does that help her get over her insecurities? She's constantly worrying that Edward's going to realize what a "pathetic little mortal" she is and leave her.

>48 ravenblue:, That's what I'm worried about: Edward being portrayed as Mr. Perfect and young girls receiving the message that "Hey, if I want a super hot boyfriend (never mind that he's controlling and won't let me see my friends or drive my truck or go to a school I want to), then I must drop everything to get him. I should completely abandon the parents who cared for me since I was born and all my friends to go be with him because he's the only one who's important." I have issues with my parents, just like everyone else, but I would never leave them forever for some guy, no matter how hot he is.

That's another thing. The books are told from Bella's perspective and she's the ultimate fangirl, always reminding us how hot Edward is. Sometimes, I wonder if that's the reason she's with him. You don't hear a whole lot from her about the good things he does, but sure as hell hear about how attractive he is. I don't own the books, but off the top of my head I can't really remember her saying anything to the extent of "He's so nice to me" but I remember things like "I'd never looked beyond his face to see his body but I finally did, that was hot too!" Mind you, there might be points in the book where she does talk about how great a guy Edward is, but if that doesn't stick with you when you're done reading, then I don't know how valid that really is.

EDIT:

>51 christiguc:, Yes! That is exactly what I'm talking about. He is borderline abusive (I say borderline because I don't think he actually hit her at the time but just that he wanted to...)

And people, abuse doesn't always start out with violence. Often, it's just one person controlling what the other person does, or who they see or who they can have as friends, or where they can go to school...

>33 MerryMary: & 38:

Okay, I understand it more now. I guess I could have looked it up on the net (or on LT itself) but with so much fan hype I thought it might take a while to wade through the gushing (I have nothing against it, mind).

I assumed Edward & Jacob were the two guys in Bella's life, and if Edward was the vampire then Jacob would be human. But no, he's a shape-shifting werewolf! This Bella sure knows how to pick them.

Another thread that made me laugh was "Who is your favourite Cullen?". Now assuming Edward is a Cullen (I MAY have got this wrong), this suggests more Cullens, ie a family. Do vampires reproduce in this book? Or does he live with his human descendants/distant cousins?

I can see why it would wind some women up - like someone says, it's like feminism never happened - but most girls move on from this sort of stuff the minute they start dating, don't they? DON'T THEY?

The thing that depresses me, more than the feminism/bad writing issue, is that I LIKE vampires and werewolves, and a modern take that wasn't so damn angst-y would be refreshing. Have any UK members here seen the series "Being Human?". In the pilot, a vampire, werewolf and ghost live together as flatmates, go to the pub together (well, not the ghost, she can't leave the house, but she makes cups of tea when she learns to touch things). Great potential. I won't spoil it for anyone but by the end of the series it had covered all the cliches and I couldn't bear anymore (although the scene where George the werewolf tells a workmate she has a lovely hole had me laughing all night)!

Thanks for posting on the other thread ravenblue, you gave it a good start :)

Perhaps Edward does have Bella's best interests at heart, but I think it's very misguided. Parents are usually trying to act in their children's best interests when they are controlling, but it's inappropriate when you get older and unacceptable in a relationship. Bella shouldn't allow it, and Edward should treat her with more respect.

Bella doesn't seem very strong to me at the beginning of Twilight. She's hopelessly insecure, and yet incredibly rude at the same time. She completely dismisses people who are nothing but nice to her. And moving so her mother could enjoy her marriage is just weird. It's more like she enjoys being the martyr, the victim, which fits with her wanting/needing to be saved by Edward. As for the other things you mentioned - objectively she may be decent person, but it's what she thinks of herself that's the problem. Without Edward, she doesn't even want to exist anymore.

The Cullens are a 'family' only in that they live together - they were created by a vampire who has chosen not to drink human blood, all of them (I believe) saved from the brink of death rather than 'turned' for the fun of it.

They come paired - Carlisle is the patriarch, and he's with Esme.

There's also Alice & Jasper, and Rosalie & Emmet.

>53 Moomin_Mama:, Yes, Edward's a vampire and Jacob is a shapeshifter who takes the form of a wolf and both like Bella but hate each other since they're "species" (can't think of a better word) are mortal enemies. The wolves were created to kill vampires. They don't like each other. When Bella becomes friends with Jacob, it pisses Edward off. In the third book, she's forced to choose between the two and rather than refuse, saying she'll keep her own friends thank you very much, she says so long to Jacob and runs into Edward's arms.

The Cullens aren't a family by blood. Rather, they began with Carlisle Cullen, who's the oldest vampire of the lot. He turned Edward and Esme when they were very close to death. Esme became his wife and Edward their adopted son of sorts. I think he also turned Rosalie, but I can't remember. Alice and Jasper were already vampires when they were found and for the life of me, I can't remember Emmetts's story except that he was mortally wounded by a bear. All seven of these vampires have come together as a family and have a shared interest of not dining on humans when possible. They live in Forks, Washington, because it's normally not sunny and they can get away with going outside most of the time. They are currently repeating high school for the ten or twelfth time. Alice and Jasper are a couple, as are Rosalie and Emmett. Poor Edward, he's all alone...

Thanks everyone for giving me a bit of an introduction. As I suspected, it doesn't sound like my cup of tea, but then sometimes when something becomes this popular I'll have a look to see what all the fuss is about, so I may pick it up eventually. I read a friend's The Da Vinci Code when it was getting its most hype/stick, and while I wouldn't read another Dan Brown book, it was fun and entertained me for what it was.

(internet cut out and doesn't look like my last message was posted, so here it goes again)

re: 51 & 54

no, he doesn't hit her.

when we use the comparison of Edwards and Bellas relationship to that of a parent and child I find them very similar. a parent will protect their child and be "controlling" to do so. we have to take it at face value that Edward IS immortal and sees humans as delicate, ie Bella, much like a child.

If Edward was human then he probably wouldn't be so controlling, he would have no need to. If anything Bella would probably be the dominant one in the relationship much like she was in her relationship with her mother.

Want to put something out there for consideration...

Did anyone think whilst reading Twilight that Bella was linked to La Push descendants? I kept thinking that it would come out in the end that maybe her father/mother was a x breed. I mean it would explain why Edward couldnt read her thoughts because he can't read the werewolves thoughts, she has dark hair and eyes and the wolves only seemed to imprint on other wolves, hence imprinting on Renesme.

Have to call it a night guys...its 2am here in Australia!

I thought Edward DID read Jacob's thoughts, at least in books 3 and 4.

Edward reads Jacob's thoughts at the end of book 2 as well, when Jacob gets Bella grounded because of the motorcycles.

Why do I know this? Why?!

>59 ravenblue:, But in a relationship of two "lovers" (lacking a better word here), isn't it a bit disturbing that one's acting like a parent? Would you allow your boyfriend to act as your father? Bella should be mature enough to not need Edward's "parental" guidance and Edward should respect Bella enough to allow her to make her own choices. If he, for some reason, does agree with a choice Bella is making, he should talk to her about it like an adult, not simply override her choices and force her to do something else.

Bella has an almost pathological need to put everyone else first. Hence leaving the place she loves so her mother and mother's new boyfriend/husband (can't remember which) can be happier, always cooking for her father, always submitting to Edward. It's depicted as a good thing, but I find it a little disturbing and unnatural.

As for Jacob... Bella herself described their first kiss as an "assault" on Jacob's part. Jacob then proceeds to force her to ASK to kiss him again by saying he'll basically commit suicide if she doesn't. And still Bella can't bear to hurt his feelings by telling him to go away, and can't choose between him and Edward. (Up until then Jacob had been sweet and not forceful, it was a random change like a mentioned in #41.)

(By this point Edward had realized he was being unfair and was allowing her to do whatever she wanted re: Jacob, even if that included choosing Jacob over him. This was another one of the sudden turnarounds I mentioned in 41 that didn't make any sense in the text, welcome a change as it was.)

ETA: Also responded in LaurenSeraph's thread.

I can't see how having a natural instinct to help people and want others to be happy is a bad thing?? Maybe if everyone in the world had Bellas attitude the world would be peaceful and loving. How other people respond to her or manipulate her to do things eg Jacob blackmailing her for a kiss, then its their problem not hers and she should stay true to herself.

I know I've brought this up before but you can't disregard the fact that Edward is a supernatural immortal being! We can't disregard this and we can't compare his actions to that of a human male.

When Bella met him she entered a world of the supernatural which Edward has more knowledge of and experience so he sees how delicate the human race is and because he loves Bella more than anything he will do extreme things to keep her safe.

I agree that Jacob cannot be trusted with controlling his wolfy side and this is emphasised through (can't remember his name) the pack leader who had hurt is girlfriend who now lives with scaring from when he lost it. Remember that Edward doesn't really know Jacob or what he is capable of at that time.

Re: reading werewolves minds - Edward could only read their minds when they were NOT in wolf form. I found it interesting that in Midnight Sun he couldn't really read Bellas dads mind either. Bellas dad also seems to be the only character who hangs out with people from la push. Thats what got be thinking "is there a distant relative from the la push clan on Bellas fathers side? Is this why Edward finds it hard to read their minds?" Just something to consider...

Preface: I've not read the book. I'm just on my lunch break, feeling feisty, and this one cut home. :)

#63: Couldn't there be a fine line where putting others first turns into being a doormat?

How other people respond to her or manipulate her to do things eg Jacob blackmailing her for a kiss, then its their problem not hers and she should stay true to herself.
Quick: a man tries to blackmail or manipulate you into sleeping with him. Do you:
a) tell him to piss off, or
b) do it

If the answer is b, as it apparently was for Bella, then there's a problem. And it's not just with Jacob. (Don't suppose the author makes that clear somehow, anyone?)

>64 Medellia:, I'll admit I didn't get all the way through the third book but from what I've heard, Jacob basically threatens to kill himself if she doesn't kiss him. If that's the case, where does it stop?

I'll kill myself if you don't kiss me
I'll kill myself if you don't date me
I'll kill myself if you don't marry me
I'll kill myself if you don't sleep with me
I'll kill myself if you don't bear my child
I'll kill myself if you ever see Edward again
I'll kill myself if you ever see anyone in your family again

If you'll notice, none of what Jacob's asking her to do is technically hurting anyone, except for maybe Edward's feelings, but she apparently didn't care much about those when she let Jacob kiss her so I'm sure she could handle it. In short, I agree with Medellia in that there is a difference between putting others first and being a doormat. Bella really needs a kick in the rear in order to start standing up for herself.

By the way, Medellia, you need a third option, something along the lines of

c) kick him where in hurts while spraying pepper spray into his eyes, then telling him to piss off.

I would choose c!

I must say that after reading the first half of this thread, I have a slight crush on _ZOE_. :-)
She (or he?) was the only one being reasonable.

And my goodness, when people hate Twilight they take it to a venomous level don't they? And I really don't understand coming into a thread just to attack the OP. How tacky. Ignore it and go on. Don't TRY to start drama. Geez.

Sorry. I realize this thread has moved past this.

Oh hell........since I'm here....... Team Edward!

In connection with the second and third paragraphs of 63 (RebeccaAnn and Medellia talked about the others very well):

There are some situations where it's perfectly reasonable for Edward to be taking charge. For instance, the scene in the first book when they're playing baseball and the other vampires approach. If Edward didn't say "Bella, stand behind me," etc., even maybe making her if she didn't want to let him be in charge, he wouldn't be taking care of her very well. That's a specific situation in which she is not capable of taking care of herself.

If all the scenes with other supernatural beings were like that, then the whole thing would have a different cast on it. But I remember several times the others and Emmett especially mentioning how surprised they were at the ideas she had to save them all. Just because she physically can't defend herself doesn't mean she shouldn't have a say in anything, just that Edward needs to defend her in a confrontation. (Also, if Bella had been turned into a vampire at the end of the first book like she wanted to and Edward didn't, most of the stuff we've been talking about in the later books would never have been an issue.)

This is an idea I've had for a while but is only just starting to come into words: Suppose the (admittedly endless) harping on Edward's beauty isn't just "he's hot = I love him"? What if seeing a vampire is kind of a mystical experience, like seeing a dragon or an elf or a phoenix might be? Maybe saying "he's beautiful" over and over is the only way Bella knows how to communicate that sense of wonder. And that would explain the tremendous sense of loss she feels in New Moon, too.

#65: By the way, Medellia, you need a third option, something along the lines of

c) kick him where in hurts while spraying pepper spray into his eyes, then telling him to piss off.

I would choose c!

Well done. :)

>67 FFortuna:, That's something I've wondered as well. He's not human and that could just be a fascinating concept for her, but I still worry at the lack of "He's such a great guy" type of comments. I guess for me, there's just way too much focus on the physical for me to believe she truly, honestly loves him. And she's around the guy almost all the time. I would have thought that somewhere around the second or third book, she would have (to some degree), grown accustomed to his appearance and we could start moving on to him as an actual person rather than a pretty face.

I do agree with your first statement, though. That was a situation in which he had every right to take control. It was clearly a protection issue. I still can't say the same about her friendship with Jacob or her school or her truck, etc, etc, but I do admit I hadn't really thought about the point ravenblue brought up: she is mortal and he is immortal so in some instances (i.e. the baseball game), I could see him taking the lead in the relationship and forcing her to do something, but he does the same thing in so many other moments when it's not necessary and in fact, unwelcome.

I just wanted to make this point clear: I understand Edward wanting Bella to stay away from Jacob. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that he forces her to stay away.

69: The huge focus on physical attraction is something that I have a big problem with too. The main reason that Bella is attracted to Edward is that he's devastatingly beautiful (not to mention wealthy and mysterious). Given her reaction to the other guys who like her (Mike, Eric, Tyler) Bella isn't interested in a relationship or doesn't feel ready to handle one. But Edward's beauty overrides that completely, even though he's so rude to her at first she wants to cry out of humiliation. She picks Edward over someone like Mike because Edward has more power, status, and beauty. And of course he practically hypnotises her with his eyes. Poor Mike is just an ordinary guy and doesn't have these powers.

Also, some people would argue that it's the 'plain' outsider girl who gets the hottest guy, not the popular babe. However, the description of Bella as 'plain' comes only from her - almost every male she encounters is drawn to her. Edward's attraction to her isn't an intellectual one either. Yes, he's intrigued because he can't read her mind, but mostly she just smells great.

So it's a romance based largely on physical attraction. I've only read Twilight, but I'll take a wild guess and say there aren't many (or any) moments when Bella and Edward simply enjoy each others' conversation or sharing a hobby or interest. When she's talking to him, she's always fascinated by his eyes or his voice.

ITO the mortal/immortal debate and Edward protecting or taking care of Bella: I agree that Edward protecting Bella in cases where she can't defend herself is a good thing. But other instances like choosing her college for her is completely unacceptable. Even if he does know more, he should discuss his reasons fully with her, and give only suggestions, not commands. She's not a toddler and however good his intentions might be, treating her like one shows a profound lack of respect. In fact, I often get the impression that Edward owns Bella. He loves her like he would a highly-prized object or a loyal pet, not as a human being with he own free will.

It's very refreshing to see a thread discussing the merits or lack thereof in the series, rather than just the usual "Team X" / "Go away" thread. Especially since that is exactly how this thread started. Kudos to the recent posters.

I should point out that, while a lot more is said about Jacob's personality and interests, Bella is still fixated on how much she likes his hair, smile, and wonderful muscles...

All of that about Jacob (mostly being discussed in the other thread I think) is true. But we should remember that love isn't itemized... You don't make a list of all the good things someone does for you and decide you love them. You either love them or you don't. (That doesn't mean you have to stay with someone if they're bad for you... but just because you leave them doesn't mean you don't love them.) One guy may have given her more compliments or more gifts or whatever, but that may have nothing to do with who she loves more.

Posting the same sentiment in both threads.