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1skoobdo
Women's fiction have elements of romance and feminism issues . I am not a male chauvinist, but it is a fact that the women readers will prefer to read female authors fiction.Men readers have preference or liking for the political,
crime/thriller and biographical fiction over fiction written by (as examples) Jane Austen, Bronte's sisters, A S Byatt and other modern and contemporary female writers from 20th/21st Century's era. I will have to try to read more fiction by the women writers, and discover their style of writing. Do you like to read books by the female writers over their opposite counterparts ?
crime/thriller and biographical fiction over fiction written by (as examples) Jane Austen, Bronte's sisters, A S Byatt and other modern and contemporary female writers from 20th/21st Century's era. I will have to try to read more fiction by the women writers, and discover their style of writing. Do you like to read books by the female writers over their opposite counterparts ?
2Nicole_VanK
Percent male: 86.42% : Percent female: 13.58% (for my library - with about 4% not set)
So I guess I show a preference for male authors. But I must stress that the vast majority of my books is non-fiction (and much predates the 19th century for original publication), so it doesn't say much about my tastes in "modern" fiction.
So I guess I show a preference for male authors. But I must stress that the vast majority of my books is non-fiction (and much predates the 19th century for original publication), so it doesn't say much about my tastes in "modern" fiction.
3inkspot
I differentiate between books written for women and about them, although the two categories are often combined. To me, books written specifically for women tend to match stereotypes or have cliched storylines - run-of-the-mill romances, shopping with your girlfriends, the middle-aged woman who leaves her stifling marriage to try and live her life, etc. I think of this as chick-lit, defined as fluffy stories, average writing, easy to read, doesn't give you too much too think about, but lots of drama and/or wish fulfilment. Although I'm a woman, very little of it appeals to me. Since chick-li targets a specific feminine market, I doubt many men would enjoy it either
Then there are books about women. These would have female protagonists, feminist themes, and/or ideas about gender identity. Although these would typically be more popular with women, I think men could enjoy these stories as well. I enjoy reading books about men so why can't a man do the same with books about women? I know men who enjoy writers like Margaret Atwood and Octavia Butler whose novels are mostly about women. I recently challenged another LT member to read The Robber Bride because he had mostly hard sf and non-fiction in his library, almost nothing by or about women. He loved it. I really think it's the quality of a story (the writing, plot, characters) that is important here, rather than the subject matter.
If an author can write a great story, everyone has the potential to enjoy it, even if it's about someone who's identity is very different from their own, who lives a different life and has different beliefs. If a man only sought to read books about other men who were similar to him, I'd consider his tastes to be rather narrow-minded. The same with women, or anyone who only reads books about people like them.
Then there are books about women. These would have female protagonists, feminist themes, and/or ideas about gender identity. Although these would typically be more popular with women, I think men could enjoy these stories as well. I enjoy reading books about men so why can't a man do the same with books about women? I know men who enjoy writers like Margaret Atwood and Octavia Butler whose novels are mostly about women. I recently challenged another LT member to read The Robber Bride because he had mostly hard sf and non-fiction in his library, almost nothing by or about women. He loved it. I really think it's the quality of a story (the writing, plot, characters) that is important here, rather than the subject matter.
If an author can write a great story, everyone has the potential to enjoy it, even if it's about someone who's identity is very different from their own, who lives a different life and has different beliefs. If a man only sought to read books about other men who were similar to him, I'd consider his tastes to be rather narrow-minded. The same with women, or anyone who only reads books about people like them.
4crazybatcow
> 1 "but it is a fact that the women readers will prefer to read female authors fiction.Men readers have preference or liking for the political"
Is it a fact that women prefer to read female authors fiction? Or do you mean that women are more likely to read "women's" fiction (ie. romance novels) than men are?
I do agree that female authors are more likely to include "romance" (romance versus sex) and more fully written female characters. "Feminist" writing is another thing entirely... of course, it's going to be a woman (usually) who writes feminist material, but, if a female character is strong and able and competent, does that make the writer/character a feminist?
It's probably the genre I read (apocalyptic, sci-fi) but most of the writers (I think it's nearly 90% male that I read) either don't include women characters at all, or the women are there to provide sex partners, or nursing care. If this is the ruler we use, then any writer who writes a woman who can use a gun, defend herself from rape, or put wiper fluid in her car would be a feminist.
Is it a fact that women prefer to read female authors fiction? Or do you mean that women are more likely to read "women's" fiction (ie. romance novels) than men are?
I do agree that female authors are more likely to include "romance" (romance versus sex) and more fully written female characters. "Feminist" writing is another thing entirely... of course, it's going to be a woman (usually) who writes feminist material, but, if a female character is strong and able and competent, does that make the writer/character a feminist?
It's probably the genre I read (apocalyptic, sci-fi) but most of the writers (I think it's nearly 90% male that I read) either don't include women characters at all, or the women are there to provide sex partners, or nursing care. If this is the ruler we use, then any writer who writes a woman who can use a gun, defend herself from rape, or put wiper fluid in her car would be a feminist.
5AnnieMod
> 1 I am not a male chauvnist, but it is a fact that the women readers will prefer to read female authors fiction.
Looking at my library. Counting again. I kinda cannot agree. And truth to be told, the number of the female authors that I am reading these days is much higher than it used to be a few years ago (before starting to read cozy mysteries again) although the comics authors kinda equalized this.
Now - if you are talking for romance and/or chick lit - the situation is quite different there and I guess it's mainly women that read these. But outside of these genres, it's a bit different.
Looking at my library. Counting again. I kinda cannot agree. And truth to be told, the number of the female authors that I am reading these days is much higher than it used to be a few years ago (before starting to read cozy mysteries again) although the comics authors kinda equalized this.
Now - if you are talking for romance and/or chick lit - the situation is quite different there and I guess it's mainly women that read these. But outside of these genres, it's a bit different.
6ajsomerset
"I am not a male chauvnist, but it is a fact that the women readers will prefer to read female authors fiction."
This is not, in fact, a fact. Neither is it a fact that female writers produce "women's fiction," i.e., fiction written to address women's concerns.
At present, men are socialized not to read fiction, and women makeup something like 80% of the readership. Considering the large number of male fiction writers, we need hardly look up market studies (which do exist) to see that women must be reading both male and female writers.
This is not, in fact, a fact. Neither is it a fact that female writers produce "women's fiction," i.e., fiction written to address women's concerns.
At present, men are socialized not to read fiction, and women makeup something like 80% of the readership. Considering the large number of male fiction writers, we need hardly look up market studies (which do exist) to see that women must be reading both male and female writers.
7Ape
I'm a man - I don't intentionally try to read books by either sex, yet my meme tells a different story:
Percent male: 81.4% : Percent female: 18.6%
I would be curious to know my average rating between the genders though, because as I remember some of my favorite fantasy novels have been written by female authors. (Diana Wynne Jones, Trudi Canavan, Roberta Gellis) Yet, I definitely remember some of my favorite science fiction and horror authors being men. (Michael Marshall Smith, Tom Holland, Jeff Long) so I can't say I prefer either male or female writing as a whole. I don't like to use stereotypes, but it DOES seem that women do a better job of developing chacters and getting the reader attached to them, whereas men, in my experience, have done a better job with battle sequences or action scenes. May sound cliche...but that seems to be the case.
Anyways, while I don't favor one sex over the other, I suppose it's more likely males would write about subjects I'm interested in. (History/war/mytholgy in nonfiction and fantasy/sci-fi/horror in fiction)
Percent male: 81.4% : Percent female: 18.6%
I would be curious to know my average rating between the genders though, because as I remember some of my favorite fantasy novels have been written by female authors. (Diana Wynne Jones, Trudi Canavan, Roberta Gellis) Yet, I definitely remember some of my favorite science fiction and horror authors being men. (Michael Marshall Smith, Tom Holland, Jeff Long) so I can't say I prefer either male or female writing as a whole. I don't like to use stereotypes, but it DOES seem that women do a better job of developing chacters and getting the reader attached to them, whereas men, in my experience, have done a better job with battle sequences or action scenes. May sound cliche...but that seems to be the case.
Anyways, while I don't favor one sex over the other, I suppose it's more likely males would write about subjects I'm interested in. (History/war/mytholgy in nonfiction and fantasy/sci-fi/horror in fiction)
8usnmm2
My authors are split 90% male 10% female. This isn't a conscience choice. It has to do with what I tend to like to read. Mostly scifi and naval/nautical (fiction and history). Having said that some of my favorite authors and books in these catagories are women.
Examples;
The Bounty : The True Story of the Mutiny on the Bounty by Caroline Alexander in my opion is the best history of the Bounty mutiny that has been written.
Joan Druett writtings span both fiction and non fiction alike, her Wiki Coffin mystery series set in the age of sail are excellent as is her whaling histories In the Wake of Madness: The Murderous Voyage of the Whaleship Sharon
Tanya Huff's military sci fi series featuring Gunnery Sergeant Torin Kerr (a women) are pretty good reads for those that like that sub genre of sci-fi.
I would agree that fiction written for women by women (chick lit or romance) would not appeal to most men. But there is a wide range of other fiction to choose from. And sometimes that female slant on the story (for me anyway) can be refreshing.
Examples;
The Bounty : The True Story of the Mutiny on the Bounty by Caroline Alexander in my opion is the best history of the Bounty mutiny that has been written.
Joan Druett writtings span both fiction and non fiction alike, her Wiki Coffin mystery series set in the age of sail are excellent as is her whaling histories In the Wake of Madness: The Murderous Voyage of the Whaleship Sharon
Tanya Huff's military sci fi series featuring Gunnery Sergeant Torin Kerr (a women) are pretty good reads for those that like that sub genre of sci-fi.
I would agree that fiction written for women by women (chick lit or romance) would not appeal to most men. But there is a wide range of other fiction to choose from. And sometimes that female slant on the story (for me anyway) can be refreshing.
9MerryMary
As a child's librarian, I've known for years that girls will read stories by and about boys, but boys tend not to read stories by or about girls. Odd.
10christiguc
am not a male chauvnist, but it is a fact that the women readers will prefer to read female authors fiction.
That is not necessarily true: my author break-down is--Male: 54%, Female: 46%.
And, as crazybatcow says--how do you define "romance" and "feminism issues"? I certainly wouldn't say that all female-authored fiction contains those elements.
That is not necessarily true: my author break-down is--Male: 54%, Female: 46%.
And, as crazybatcow says--how do you define "romance" and "feminism issues"? I certainly wouldn't say that all female-authored fiction contains those elements.
11usnmm2
MerryMary,
Thats interesting! There must be a Phd for some up and coming psycologist in that.
Thats interesting! There must be a Phd for some up and coming psycologist in that.
12theretiredlibrarian
#9; I think that trend may be changing a little bit. In the last few years, I've noticed that boys will pick up "girl" books fairly often. Things like Babymouse, Franny K. Stein, Junie B. Jones, Ramona. I've even had a few boys who liked the American Girls.
13Ape
9, MerryMary: I have a younger sister, and I noticed something similar when we were kids playing video games. While we both preferred to play as characters that shared out gender, she was much more willing to play as a male character if she had to than I was to play as a female character.
14beatles1964
Percent Female: 80.15% Percent Male:19.85% Not Set-23.
Personally the gender of the Author doesn't even come into play as far as I'm concerned because when I chose a book to read I don't think along those lines. I'll just grab any book thinking I've never read this before but it's always been on my TBR list so I'll read that or maybe re-read one of my favorites. I buy, read and collect Authors like Anne Rice, Stephen King, Ursula K. LeGuin, Jane Austen, Clive Barker, Ray Bradbury, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Ruth Rendell, Agagtha Christie and many others because I love their ability to tell stories and be able to get lost inside of them over and over again. Personally I find it very interesting to read books on the Women's Movement Feminism, Feminist Science Fiction or anything else along those lines and I also enjoy reading Chick-Lit too and the old Gothic Mysteries/Romance written by Dorothy Daniels, Dorothy Eden, etc.
Beatles1964
Personally the gender of the Author doesn't even come into play as far as I'm concerned because when I chose a book to read I don't think along those lines. I'll just grab any book thinking I've never read this before but it's always been on my TBR list so I'll read that or maybe re-read one of my favorites. I buy, read and collect Authors like Anne Rice, Stephen King, Ursula K. LeGuin, Jane Austen, Clive Barker, Ray Bradbury, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Ruth Rendell, Agagtha Christie and many others because I love their ability to tell stories and be able to get lost inside of them over and over again. Personally I find it very interesting to read books on the Women's Movement Feminism, Feminist Science Fiction or anything else along those lines and I also enjoy reading Chick-Lit too and the old Gothic Mysteries/Romance written by Dorothy Daniels, Dorothy Eden, etc.
Beatles1964
15readafew
Women's fiction have elements of romance and feminism issues . I am not a male chauvnist, but it is a fact that the women readers will prefer to read female authors fiction
Interesting. 1st this makes a huge assumption about what 'Women's Fiction' is and also assumes it is most if not all written by women, and continuing on, assumes all female writers write 'Women's Fiction'. As a male I avoid 'Romance' and 'Chick-lit' but I don't avoid female writers nor do I avoid 'feminist' literature as long as it doesn't show all men in an extreme negative light. There are many male writers who write romance and chick-lit but use female pen names for the same reason that many female sci-fi writers use male pen names. Also, if one was to say that the vast majority of 'romance/chick-lit' was read by women, that would be a reasonable assumption, saying most women read it, is completely different and might get you a black eye.
Interesting. 1st this makes a huge assumption about what 'Women's Fiction' is and also assumes it is most if not all written by women, and continuing on, assumes all female writers write 'Women's Fiction'. As a male I avoid 'Romance' and 'Chick-lit' but I don't avoid female writers nor do I avoid 'feminist' literature as long as it doesn't show all men in an extreme negative light. There are many male writers who write romance and chick-lit but use female pen names for the same reason that many female sci-fi writers use male pen names. Also, if one was to say that the vast majority of 'romance/chick-lit' was read by women, that would be a reasonable assumption, saying most women read it, is completely different and might get you a black eye.
16Essa
> 9, 11 -- Not sure about Ph.D.s but there are already lots of writings, papers, etc., on the topic. The essential gist is that, for ages in our culture, men and the male perspective have been seen as the default; women are "other." E.g., books/story arcs about a man and his experience are (viewed as) representative of the human experience. Whereas a book/story arc about a woman and her experience are (viewed as) ... a book/story arc about a woman and her experience. Different. "Other." Not representative of humanity as a whole.
My library split says 61% male, 38% female, but, like BarkingMatt, much of my library is non-fiction. When it comes to fiction, I don't think the sex of the author matters too much as long as the writing is good. Although there are times when I deliberately seek out women's fiction, e.g., if I am seeking a specifically female sample of writing from a certain culture or time period.
I've not noticed a lot of difference when it comes to sci-fi and fantasy, and of course there are tons of women writers in both those genres. Men who read those genres in past eras were often enjoying female writers, too, even if they didn't know it at the time, as some writers -- Andre Norton, James Tiptree, Jr., Wilmar Shiras, et al. -- were writing under male pseudonyms. ;)
My library split says 61% male, 38% female, but, like BarkingMatt, much of my library is non-fiction. When it comes to fiction, I don't think the sex of the author matters too much as long as the writing is good. Although there are times when I deliberately seek out women's fiction, e.g., if I am seeking a specifically female sample of writing from a certain culture or time period.
I've not noticed a lot of difference when it comes to sci-fi and fantasy, and of course there are tons of women writers in both those genres. Men who read those genres in past eras were often enjoying female writers, too, even if they didn't know it at the time, as some writers -- Andre Norton, James Tiptree, Jr., Wilmar Shiras, et al. -- were writing under male pseudonyms. ;)
17Thrin
>8 usnmm2: usnmm2
Thanks for pointing us to those 'nautical' books.... I'm looking forward to reading them.
Thanks for pointing us to those 'nautical' books.... I'm looking forward to reading them.
19skoobdo
This forum is very lively and entertaining. We need to have more interesting forum "topics" for general discussion among the LT's members.
20vivienbrenda
This discussion is fascinating. I haven't given much thought to whether a book is written by a man or a woman, but I have come to dislike very much novels about characters who do nothing but whine about their lives and spend the entire book blaming the world around them for all their woes. I can think of several male and female writers who use that device.
Over the past several years, I've found myself turning to genre, classic, and nonfiction books. Most of the classics were written by men for obvious reasons. I have never given much thought to who authored the nonfiction. As for genres, I am very much into mysteries. I adore female British mystery writers, but usually prefer American male writers.
I don't know how this adds to the conversation, but I just thought I'd stick my female two cents in.
Over the past several years, I've found myself turning to genre, classic, and nonfiction books. Most of the classics were written by men for obvious reasons. I have never given much thought to who authored the nonfiction. As for genres, I am very much into mysteries. I adore female British mystery writers, but usually prefer American male writers.
I don't know how this adds to the conversation, but I just thought I'd stick my female two cents in.
21crazybatcow
I like genre fiction (really don't like classics, though I try to make myself read one or two a year)... I don't normally pay attention to the author's gender 'cause usually it's not relevant but...
The last couple books I've read had such poorly written, completely useless or non-existent women characters that my next read will be one that actually has properly written female characters. I hate to think this would require me to read a female author, so I'm going to pick a book that was suggested in another thread (men writing romance)...
The last couple books I've read had such poorly written, completely useless or non-existent women characters that my next read will be one that actually has properly written female characters. I hate to think this would require me to read a female author, so I'm going to pick a book that was suggested in another thread (men writing romance)...
22skoobdo
Most readers I presumed do not give much thought whether the writer is a man or a woman.( I agreed to your statement. ) It is universally known that the books which have won the international book prizes (such as "Man Booker's Book Prize) will easily fetched big demands from the book readers. The past "Nobel Prize For Literature'' winners have good followers or "fans" for their books without any doubts at all.The style of writing from some writers are rather stereotyped, and the genre will remained "stagnant" by specialising in one particular fiction genre, and not in several different fiction genre. To find authors good in several fiction genre are very rare. There are many writers in their own specialised genre, such as
John Grisham - crime/thriller
Stephen King - horror
Jeffrey Archer - novels
Agatha Christie - crime/thriller
J R R Tolkien - fantasy
John Grisham - crime/thriller
Stephen King - horror
Jeffrey Archer - novels
Agatha Christie - crime/thriller
J R R Tolkien - fantasy
23Moomin_Mama
>1 skoobdo::
A "fact", eh? Where does that figure come from? (Not being sarcastic, just interested).
Just checked my stats and my authors are about 72% male, and I'm a woman.
>9 MerryMary::
Boys are much more likely to be teased for liking "girly" things.
A "fact", eh? Where does that figure come from? (Not being sarcastic, just interested).
Just checked my stats and my authors are about 72% male, and I'm a woman.
>9 MerryMary::
Boys are much more likely to be teased for liking "girly" things.
24AnnieMod
>22 skoobdo: "Jeffrey Archer - novels"
How come? He has a lot of good stories as well. Besides - since when novels is a genre :)
And Christie is actually a mystery writer :)
How come? He has a lot of good stories as well. Besides - since when novels is a genre :)
And Christie is actually a mystery writer :)
25puddleshark
In Classic literature I don't differentiate - I'm as fond of Charles Dickens as Jane Austen.
In genre fiction I mostly read women authors. With some notable exceptions, women authors invest more in their characters and are less likely to kill them off just for entertainment value.
In genre fiction I mostly read women authors. With some notable exceptions, women authors invest more in their characters and are less likely to kill them off just for entertainment value.
26thorold
If I've done this right, there are 125194 CK entries for "male" in the author field and 60929 for "female".
By my count, 22 of the top 75 authors on the Zeitgeist page are female, and 24 of the top 75 books are by women.
I also checked the male/female stats pages of 25 random users and got an average ratio of about 60% male.
So it looks like a plausible hypothesis that men outnumber women by very roughly two to one in the universe of authors read by LT members. But I wouldn't be surprised if that ratio gets higher the further you go down the "long tail" of popularity and away from the handful of very successful women writers who dominate the statistics in the most popular genres.
My library is about 80% male, probably skewed that way by older books and non-fiction, though I wouldn't have thought that I had a preference for male writers: the reverse, if anything.
By my count, 22 of the top 75 authors on the Zeitgeist page are female, and 24 of the top 75 books are by women.
I also checked the male/female stats pages of 25 random users and got an average ratio of about 60% male.
So it looks like a plausible hypothesis that men outnumber women by very roughly two to one in the universe of authors read by LT members. But I wouldn't be surprised if that ratio gets higher the further you go down the "long tail" of popularity and away from the handful of very successful women writers who dominate the statistics in the most popular genres.
My library is about 80% male, probably skewed that way by older books and non-fiction, though I wouldn't have thought that I had a preference for male writers: the reverse, if anything.
27Sodapop
Doesn't the fact that you list Agatha Christie as a crime/thriller writer rather negate whatever the heck you were trying to say about female writers in post #1?
28quillmenow
What category does Nicholas Sparks fall under?
30reading_fox
#26 "So it looks like a plausible hypothesis that men outnumber women by very roughly two to one in the universe of authors read by LT members"
Don't forget that more male authors are published than female authors though - especially if you include the classics. Hence you can't assume that it's automatically by choice, if it matches the underlying publishing trend. Readers could be reading at random and you'd still get the same skewed distribution.
I happen to be 72/23 M-F but don't take any notice of author's gender. Sometimes it's a bit odd reading intimate personal details of a character the opposite gender from you, but any good author seems to make it believable enough until the next scene.
Don't forget that more male authors are published than female authors though - especially if you include the classics. Hence you can't assume that it's automatically by choice, if it matches the underlying publishing trend. Readers could be reading at random and you'd still get the same skewed distribution.
I happen to be 72/23 M-F but don't take any notice of author's gender. Sometimes it's a bit odd reading intimate personal details of a character the opposite gender from you, but any good author seems to make it believable enough until the next scene.
31-Eva-
Interesting discussion! I too have more male than female authors in my library (I'm female). Does anyone know what the ratio is of male and female LT users?
32theprezz
I have a good number of women writers on the fiction side of things, but interestingly most of them are writing about male protagonists. To choose a couple from the mystery genre, there is Agatha Christie's Poirot, Dorothy Sayer's Lord Peter Wimsey, and PD James' Adam Dalgliesh. Also interesting, the series with a female protagonist in my collection is written by a man: Peter Tremayne's Sister Fidelma.
33emaestra
I keep thinking of a few books of my favorite books that are romance or focused on women's issues (whatever that means): Anna Karenina, Madame Bovary, Maggie: A Girl of the Streets, Lolita... what do you know, all written by men.
34Ape
31 Does anyone know what the ratio is of male and female LT users?
I'm not sure about that, but I know whenever I go to the local library I'm about the only guy in there. Occasional I'll run into a fellow in the fantasy/science fiction aisle, but rarely.
An interesting/funny yet unrelated note: My library has the fantasy/science fiction novels in the same row as the romance novels... I'll admit that I avoided the row once while two older ladies finished discussing them, um, topic at hand. I sometimes wonder if the librarians do it on purpose to giggle at awkward teenage male fantasy/sci-fi readers. :P
I'm not sure about that, but I know whenever I go to the local library I'm about the only guy in there. Occasional I'll run into a fellow in the fantasy/science fiction aisle, but rarely.
An interesting/funny yet unrelated note: My library has the fantasy/science fiction novels in the same row as the romance novels... I'll admit that I avoided the row once while two older ladies finished discussing them, um, topic at hand. I sometimes wonder if the librarians do it on purpose to giggle at awkward teenage male fantasy/sci-fi readers. :P
35skoobdo
@Msg 23 - Moomin_Mama,
It is immaterial that women's fiction will appeal to the female readers more than male readers due to the issues that female writers will put up in the stories.
It is known that women read more than men.Women take the troubles to choose the books they want to read, and take reading more seriously and to read properly. Whereas, the men have the casual approach to books and the reading of books by depending the survey of the general literary habits.
You can read more at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/mar/22/women-reading-books-study/print
It is immaterial that women's fiction will appeal to the female readers more than male readers due to the issues that female writers will put up in the stories.
It is known that women read more than men.Women take the troubles to choose the books they want to read, and take reading more seriously and to read properly. Whereas, the men have the casual approach to books and the reading of books by depending the survey of the general literary habits.
You can read more at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/mar/22/women-reading-books-study/print
36Tigercrane
>33 emaestra: Yes, I've noticed that too. Men writing about women = literature. Men writing about men = literature. Women writing about women = chick lit, genre fiction, or literary fiction, but not literature.
At least that's how it used to be -- it is changing, I think, but not as quickly as it might.
At least that's how it used to be -- it is changing, I think, but not as quickly as it might.
37ajsomerset
36: That isn't true.
Alice Munro, for example, writes about women. And is not considered a lesser writer. Margaret Atwood writes about women, and is not considered a lesser writer. And, looking back, there was also this person named Jane Austen. Need I go on?
Chick lit is considered unliterary because frankly, it is, not because of some paternalistic conspiracy.
Alice Munro, for example, writes about women. And is not considered a lesser writer. Margaret Atwood writes about women, and is not considered a lesser writer. And, looking back, there was also this person named Jane Austen. Need I go on?
Chick lit is considered unliterary because frankly, it is, not because of some paternalistic conspiracy.
38Tigercrane
Yes, there was this person named Jane Austen. One person, who couldn't make a living even though she was probably the most brilliant author of her generation, and who had difficulty getting published at all. And you might have noticed in her novels how she poked fun at the prevailing opinion of the day, which was remarkably like the opinion of our own day -- that most novels weren't real art, and were mostly consumed by women, who had weak minds susceptible to the enjoyment of made-up things.
You skipped over the rest of my point by not addressing genre fiction and literary fiction. I think everyone agrees we can spit upon and look down on chick lit, just like the people of Austen's time, while leaving "male" genres like true crime, westerns, and soldier of fortune stories out of our critique.
Alice Munro and Margaret Atwood are excellent, it's true. And Atwood is considered a genre writer, and Munro a literary fiction writer, which are two different ways of saying their work is not "universal." Are they ranked with Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Roth, Updike, DeLillo, Pynchon? Will they be in the future? What is this thing called "literature," and what makes it so? I forget which female author said novels could only be considered literature if they included the things that men like, aka "fishing, fighting, and f*cking," but I think there's an element of truth to it.
You skipped over the rest of my point by not addressing genre fiction and literary fiction. I think everyone agrees we can spit upon and look down on chick lit, just like the people of Austen's time, while leaving "male" genres like true crime, westerns, and soldier of fortune stories out of our critique.
Alice Munro and Margaret Atwood are excellent, it's true. And Atwood is considered a genre writer, and Munro a literary fiction writer, which are two different ways of saying their work is not "universal." Are they ranked with Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Roth, Updike, DeLillo, Pynchon? Will they be in the future? What is this thing called "literature," and what makes it so? I forget which female author said novels could only be considered literature if they included the things that men like, aka "fishing, fighting, and f*cking," but I think there's an element of truth to it.
39ajsomerset
I think everyone agrees we can spit upon and look down on chick lit, just like the people of Austen's time, while leaving "male" genres like true crime, westerns, and soldier of fortune stories out of our critique.
Actually, I was going to point out that this demonstrates a flaw in your argument, but decided not to make the effort.
That is, fiction written by men is not automatically considered "literature," as you originally asserted. A great deal of it is genre fiction, and critics look down on some of those genres just as they look down on chick-lit. To suggest that soldier of fortune stories are considered more valid than chick-lit is simply silly.
Atwood is considered a genre writer
This statement is untrue.
Some people consider her later work to be science fiction, just as some people also insist that Kurt Vonnegut's work is science fiction.
However, a larger proportion of critics consider her a serious literary writer.
Munro a literary fiction writer....
Here, you're being intellectually dishonest by creating a false distinction. When men write about women, you assert, we call it "literature"; when women write about women, it's merely "literary fiction."
Really? Just what is the difference? And how many primary sources can you cite to support this contention?
You're out to lunch in suggesting that Atwood and Munro are considered minor writers compared to Roth, Updike, DeLillo and Pynchon. (And comparing their stature to Hemingway or Fitzgerald is apples to oranges; is Roth held in the same regard?)
Both Atwood and Munro are generally considered to be giants in Canadian literature; they are arguably the most significant living writers in Canada.
Atwood's most recent novel was the lead review in the Sunday NYT book review, which surely indicates that she is considered a major writer. She grabs international headlines whenever she publishes a new book. She is invited to lecture at universities. The Handmaid's Tale is taught in high schools, alongside Steinbeck, Hemingway, and Harper Lee (who, when I last checked, was also a woman).
Alice Munro has significant international stature, and is regarded as one of the finest living short story writers in the world. Her books have been reprinted as Penguin Classics, which puts them in the company of, for example, John Steinbeck. One of her collections was recently selected by The Millions as one of the 20 best books of the past decade.
http://www.themillions.com/2009/09/the-best-fiction-of-the-millennium-so-far-an-...
It's clear you've got an axe to grind, but please grind it with reference to the facts. Yes, sexism exists; but it is not true that female writers are written off as genre writers because of their gender.
Actually, I was going to point out that this demonstrates a flaw in your argument, but decided not to make the effort.
That is, fiction written by men is not automatically considered "literature," as you originally asserted. A great deal of it is genre fiction, and critics look down on some of those genres just as they look down on chick-lit. To suggest that soldier of fortune stories are considered more valid than chick-lit is simply silly.
Atwood is considered a genre writer
This statement is untrue.
Some people consider her later work to be science fiction, just as some people also insist that Kurt Vonnegut's work is science fiction.
However, a larger proportion of critics consider her a serious literary writer.
Munro a literary fiction writer....
Here, you're being intellectually dishonest by creating a false distinction. When men write about women, you assert, we call it "literature"; when women write about women, it's merely "literary fiction."
Really? Just what is the difference? And how many primary sources can you cite to support this contention?
You're out to lunch in suggesting that Atwood and Munro are considered minor writers compared to Roth, Updike, DeLillo and Pynchon. (And comparing their stature to Hemingway or Fitzgerald is apples to oranges; is Roth held in the same regard?)
Both Atwood and Munro are generally considered to be giants in Canadian literature; they are arguably the most significant living writers in Canada.
Atwood's most recent novel was the lead review in the Sunday NYT book review, which surely indicates that she is considered a major writer. She grabs international headlines whenever she publishes a new book. She is invited to lecture at universities. The Handmaid's Tale is taught in high schools, alongside Steinbeck, Hemingway, and Harper Lee (who, when I last checked, was also a woman).
Alice Munro has significant international stature, and is regarded as one of the finest living short story writers in the world. Her books have been reprinted as Penguin Classics, which puts them in the company of, for example, John Steinbeck. One of her collections was recently selected by The Millions as one of the 20 best books of the past decade.
http://www.themillions.com/2009/09/the-best-fiction-of-the-millennium-so-far-an-...
It's clear you've got an axe to grind, but please grind it with reference to the facts. Yes, sexism exists; but it is not true that female writers are written off as genre writers because of their gender.
40crazybatcow
I think that both Munro and Atwood will someday be ranked as "proper" authors. (Yes, even though they are women and could be genre and chick-lit writers)
Would be interesting to determine what role their being Canadian has on the speed (or lack thereof) of them becoming ranked with Hemingway et al.
Would be interesting to determine what role their being Canadian has on the speed (or lack thereof) of them becoming ranked with Hemingway et al.
41ajsomerset
Kindly cite a single credible source -- just one -- that refers to Munro as a genre or chick-lit writer.
Munro is already regarded as a major writer. She has been called a contemporary Chekhov.
Munro is already regarded as a major writer. She has been called a contemporary Chekhov.
42crazybatcow
Oh, I was assuming you'd come back with a retort that they *were* chick-lit writers.
I don't think they are, or have any evidence that anyone else does, but every time I post, you argue with whatever it is I say (once I think it was because I have "crazy" in my username) so I figured if I said they weren't chick lit writers, it'd be an argument that they were so to skip that argument and get right to what I was thinking I put it in brackets.
My "wondering" was about their being Canadian and whether this affected how they were ranked with those other authors listed.
I don't think they are, or have any evidence that anyone else does, but every time I post, you argue with whatever it is I say (once I think it was because I have "crazy" in my username) so I figured if I said they weren't chick lit writers, it'd be an argument that they were so to skip that argument and get right to what I was thinking I put it in brackets.
My "wondering" was about their being Canadian and whether this affected how they were ranked with those other authors listed.
43ThrillerFan
While all the books in my library are written by men, I do have 1 book at home that is written by a woman that I have in my pile, The Stranger Beside Me by Ann Rule (a true crime novel about Ted Bundy). When I get around to reading it, I may add Ann Rule's books to my wish list.
Otherwise, I have read a few female authors in my younger days. I read Lillian Jackson Braun's first 13 books (The Cat Who Could Read Backwards thru The Cat Who Knew A Cardinal, along with the short story collection, The Cat Who Had 14 Tales), along with Sue Grafton's first 8 novels in her alphabet series, along with Malice in Maggody and Mischief in Maggody, both by Joan Hess.
Maybe one day I'll be back to reading female authors, but my current authors are Vince Flynn, James Rollins, M William Phelps, John Saul, Bentley Little, and Brian Keene, with authors like Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child, David Lynn Golemon, and Stuart Woods likely being the next 3 (in no order) on my list of authors I'm looking to try out.
Otherwise, I have read a few female authors in my younger days. I read Lillian Jackson Braun's first 13 books (The Cat Who Could Read Backwards thru The Cat Who Knew A Cardinal, along with the short story collection, The Cat Who Had 14 Tales), along with Sue Grafton's first 8 novels in her alphabet series, along with Malice in Maggody and Mischief in Maggody, both by Joan Hess.
Maybe one day I'll be back to reading female authors, but my current authors are Vince Flynn, James Rollins, M William Phelps, John Saul, Bentley Little, and Brian Keene, with authors like Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child, David Lynn Golemon, and Stuart Woods likely being the next 3 (in no order) on my list of authors I'm looking to try out.
44Ape
36: Yes, I've noticed that too. Men writing about women = literature. Men writing about men = literature. Women writing about women = chick lit
Isn't that short for chick literature. =P
Isn't that short for chick literature. =P
45ajsomerset
42: ...every time I post, you argue with whatever it is I say....
That's completely untrue. See? I just proved you right. ;)
Re Atwood and Munro being Canadian, that brings up an interesting question.
It's not valid to say that women writing about women are written off as chick-lit, but it is true that in the United States, female writers (such as Joyce Carol Oates, or Annie Proulx, or Francine Prose) are placed in the second rank; they aren't the candidates for the canon.
(Why this might be so is a whole 'nother question.)
But in Canada, female writers are equally likely to achieve that stature. This year's Giller Prize long list features 10 women and only two men. Since the inception of the Giller Prize, 43 percent of the shortlisted titles were by women, and one third of the winners were women. (The difference between the proportion of winners and the shortlist isn't significant; change the result of one award, and the numbers match.)
So it could well be that a more open evironment has something to do with Atwood and Munro's stature.
It could simply be that the towering figures of American literature achieved that stature in a more sexist era, and that we still haven't crawled out from under their shadow. Atwood and Munro can be seen as the beneficiaries of a left-wing nationalist effort to create a Canadian literature, which was (in its politics) inherently more pro-feminist. (Atwood, in particular, was not just a beneficiary; she was an active proponent of that movement. See Survival: A Thematic Guide to Early Margaret Atwood, by Margaret Atwood, by Margaret Atwood.)
That's completely untrue. See? I just proved you right. ;)
Re Atwood and Munro being Canadian, that brings up an interesting question.
It's not valid to say that women writing about women are written off as chick-lit, but it is true that in the United States, female writers (such as Joyce Carol Oates, or Annie Proulx, or Francine Prose) are placed in the second rank; they aren't the candidates for the canon.
(Why this might be so is a whole 'nother question.)
But in Canada, female writers are equally likely to achieve that stature. This year's Giller Prize long list features 10 women and only two men. Since the inception of the Giller Prize, 43 percent of the shortlisted titles were by women, and one third of the winners were women. (The difference between the proportion of winners and the shortlist isn't significant; change the result of one award, and the numbers match.)
So it could well be that a more open evironment has something to do with Atwood and Munro's stature.
It could simply be that the towering figures of American literature achieved that stature in a more sexist era, and that we still haven't crawled out from under their shadow. Atwood and Munro can be seen as the beneficiaries of a left-wing nationalist effort to create a Canadian literature, which was (in its politics) inherently more pro-feminist. (Atwood, in particular, was not just a beneficiary; she was an active proponent of that movement. See Survival: A Thematic Guide to Early Margaret Atwood, by Margaret Atwood, by Margaret Atwood.)
46avaland
>45 ajsomerset: just wanted to add kudos for your fine intelligent posts.
47Moomin_Mama
>35 skoobdo::
Thanks for that :)
Thanks for that :)
48ninjapenguin
You know it's not just that women are more likely to read male characters/authors than for men to read female characters/authors, I've actually seen (even here on LT) female readers who say that they don't like any female characters they've read. Now perhaps they just have read only the books where the women only exist to be lovers/mothers/beautiful corpses to the hero, but what are the odds that there wasn't one well written female character in there?
It's possible that it may also be that since we are taught from a childhood of reading that male = normal = hero = what we want to be and female = other = reward = what we don't want to be, that some people have to come to automatically think female = bad character.
(Personally I just can't imagine thinking that being a certain gender (or anything else) would always make a character uninteresting. Can you imagine saying "Oh, he wears glasses. I can't stand guys who wear glasses; they're so whiny." And then imagine that the person saying that is wearing glasses!)
It's possible that it may also be that since we are taught from a childhood of reading that male = normal = hero = what we want to be and female = other = reward = what we don't want to be, that some people have to come to automatically think female = bad character.
(Personally I just can't imagine thinking that being a certain gender (or anything else) would always make a character uninteresting. Can you imagine saying "Oh, he wears glasses. I can't stand guys who wear glasses; they're so whiny." And then imagine that the person saying that is wearing glasses!)
