The Iliad

I'm currently working my way through The Iliad, the translation by Robert Fagles.

Only just finished Book 1: The Rage of Achilles. I'm taking my time as this type of prose is new to me and I want to get the most out of this.

It's essentially a story of men at war. Something I myself have participated in and seen the results of for twenty-five years.

In Homer's time, as now, certain types of fighting man existed.

Achilles. Bad ass. A real fighter. The guy you want to cover your six in a fight. Has the true soldier's contempt for bull and those who hold back but take credit. Also suffering from what is now known as PTSD. Possibly an adrenaline junkie who can't live without the high of danger.

Agamemnon. Puke. Staff weenie who steals the credit from others. All important muckity-muck who gets himself covered in glory by virtue of rank, not actions.

Having stared death in the face too many times to fear any man, Achilles tells it like it is.

"Staggering drunk, with your dog's eyes, your fawn's heart!
Never once did you arm with the troops and go to battle
or risk an ambush packed with Achea's picked men-
you lack the courage, you can see death coming.
Safer by far, you find, to foray all through camp,
commandeering the prize of any man who speaks against you."

Oh yeah...do I know the type.

More to come as I as slowly work my way through a work that is an eternal truth about man, war and the human character.

I'm enjoying finally reading this and using it as therapy for myself at the same time. Hopefully I can get something out of this to help me figure out where to go with my life from here.

The Greek gods who interfere? They would be the far away headquarters types, what we now call "Echelons Beyond Reality".

Your take on this is fascinating, OldSarge. Please keep on posting your comments. I'll have to re-read it now . . . *sigh*

#4. I was just thinking the same thing. It's been 25 years at least since I read it and since I was in high school at the time I don't think I got much out of it.

OldSarge

Fantastic thread! So grateful for your posting!

Please do allow us to share with you as you go!

Especially the climax with Achilles and Hector and your thoughts on that as well.

It is all so graphic!

Thanks again.

And of course this is Cultural Historiography, which I and Jacob Burckhardt love.

Like sgtbigg, I read The Iliad in high school and then again in college (in English, as I cannot read Greek), and as a female teenager and non-classicist, I'm not sure I got that much out of it. I tended to prefer The Odyssey, as it featured journeys and monsters.

I'd've loved to have a commentary like OldSarge's -- would probably have made it much more interesting to me. Agamemnon as "staff weenie" -- love it. :D Thanks for sharing your insights as you go.

Several of the classics I read in school didn't truly mean anything until many years later. When I had seen for myself what they meant.

All Quiet on the Western Front and The Red Badge of Courage for starters.

I have several translations and usually read The Iliad once every one or two years. My current favorite translation is by Stanley Lombardo. Lombardo uses more natural speech and really conveys the power and energy of the poem.
I would definitely classify Achilles as a bad ass with an attitude. In the opening scene of the book the only thing that stops him from killing Agamemnon is the hand of Athena on his sword as Achilles reaches to draw it out. I will definitely keep up with OldSarge as he reads the book.

Yes, this is great. A new look at the work and funny besides!

>wildbill..

so the translation I read which is..The Iliad (Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition) (Derek Jacobi the reader) Bernard Knox (Editor, Introduction), Robert Fagles (Translator) "Iliad" ... is not as good as Lombardo?

>OldSarge..
How do you feel about the fact that Stephen Crane supposedly never went to war; that it was all in his mind....

Since you are the man who knows war and I do not, I of course defer to you on this and a whole lot more.

> Urquhart ....

I also have the Fagles translation and it is very good. All I was speaking of was my humble opinion of the moment. There are numerous readers who prefer the Fagles translation to Lombardo.

The Iliad was once almost caused me to get a speeding ticket.

Of possible interest to fans of Homer and the Illiad:

The War That Killed Achilles: The True Story of Homer's Iliad and the Trojan War (Hardcover)
by Caroline Alexander by Caroline Alexander (Author)

Product Description
A groundbreaking reading of the Iliad that restores Homer's vision of the tragedy of war, by the bestselling author of The Bounty

Few warriors, in life or literature, have challenged their commanding officer and the rationale of the war they fought as fiercely as did Homer's hero Achilles. Today, the Iliad is celebrated as one of the greatest works in literature, the epic of all epics; many have forgotten that the subject of this ancient poem was war-not merely the poetical romance of the war at Troy, but war, in all its enduring devastation.

Using the legend of the Trojan war, the Iliad addresses the central questions defining the war experience of every age: Is a warrior ever justified in standing up against his commander? Must he sacrifice his life for someone else's cause? Giving his life for his country, does a man betray his family? How is a catastrophic war ever allowed to start-and why, if all parties wish it over, can it not be ended?

As she did with The Endurance and The Bounty, Caroline Alexander lets us see why a familiar story has had such an impact on us for centuries, revealing what Homer really meant. Written with the authority of a scholar and the vigor of a bestselling narrative historian, The War That Killed Achilles is a superb and utterly timely presentation of one of the timeless stories of our civilization.

My note: it got an excellent review on Amazon.

Ok, so I have at last started The Iliad. It is the Penguin Fagels translation and I am going to try to relax and enjoy it rather than rush it.

About 6 months ago I listened to the audio with Derek Jacobi and it was wonderful, but now I want to savor it at my own pace.

Bernard Knox wrote the introduction for it and states at the start that it is a book about rage. It is hard to disagree with that but it certainly is not limited to that.

Ok, so I am half way through the Iliad and a few observations may be in order:

-Women seem to be important here. The war is fought over Helen going with Paris back to Troy. She refers to herself as a whore in having done so.

Also, Agamemnon takes back Achilles' wife Bresias who was awarded to him as plunder. Then when Achilles gets angry and refuses to fight they offer him three and then 20 women.

On the one hand women are treated like mere chattel but they fight wars over them. You figure...

-The Greeks appear to be essentially pirates. Their main revenue stream in addition to silver is sailing to a place plundering it for its riches; then killing all the men and taking women and children back as slaves.

Note to the POTUS, they don't stay in a country after winning. They leave it.

-When the warriors kill one another they always seem to know who it is they kill and as well their geneology.

-When people are killed they go down to darkness rather than up to Heaven (with or without the accompanying virgins depending on your faith.)

-Greeks see crying much like eating and laughter. They do it whole heartedly and then move on. And they always eat before taking care of business.

-This translation is great, as I am sure the others by Lattimore, Pope, etc. are. Being half way through this I find the momentum building and the tension rising. Really very good. (i tell my wife but she can't believe it. i guess it is a well kept secret.)

-Any Bernard Cornwell fans would love this book. The how and what of the killing is very graphic.

-Since sex (women) and violence (war) are such primary themes here, I sense it would do well as a movie.

-War is portrayed as who can get the most angry for the longest period of time. I am not sure that is the case today. What with technology I am not sure how much anger management comes into fighting wars today.

-Finally the Greeks seem to fight for glory, honor, and immortality. I am not sure those are the same reasons today for soldiers. OldSarge could maybe tell us about that.

Anyone with any further knowledge of the book or on my observations is more than welcome.

Finally, this is cultural historiography at its best. I love it all the more for that reason. This book from 2700 years ago and the big themes were still sex and violence.

Anyone care to discuss progress of mankind?

18 - I loved The Iliad. There were a few times where I felt a little lost in the book(poem, tale, call it what you will....), but overall, it was a great read.

On the one hand women are treated like mere chattel but they fight wars over them. You figure...

Interesting isn't it? If I recall, something like 20 years had passed since Helen was taken to Troy and the Greeks show up. Or maybe I am mistaken.

Since sex (women) and violence (war) are such primary themes here, I sense it would do well as a movie.

The movie Troy, starring Brad Pitt, came out a few years back and was a loose adaptation of the Iliad. The movie paled in comparison to the written account.

war is about killing, and homer doesnt hide from that fact.
i have a great deal of trouble tho with books that try and explain The Iliad as if its an historical account of a real episode, ie barry strauss. its a myth, with mythical and poetical structures and themes. maybe there was once in mycanean greece an expedition to troy or the hellespont, but for 10 years?? PLEASE! if they existed they were raiders looking for transportable booty, be that women or cattle or metals.
achilles and hector are still two of the greatest tragic figures in all of literature, one fighting for his honour and for ever-lasting fame, one fighting for his king and country, his wife and child.

Have finished The Iliad, and so some comments:

o People say it is a book about anger, but it is certainly also about killing, getting killed, grasping for glory or fame, as well as loving.

o For someone like myself who finds cultural historiography fascinating, the book is an excellent resource.

o One obvious thing is that while all humans have an emotional natures it becomes equally apparent that different cultures in different times respond radically different to age old basic situations like love and death. In the book, the Greeks respond to love or loss of a loved one without any inhibition or effort at self control. By comparison, in our time the practice of keeping a stiff upper lip and a measured middle way would look anemic by comparison. It is strange that this view toward loving and loss are not covered in any of the books of criticism cited at the back of the book.
o On the topic of loss also, it is apparent that it was a totally acceptable custom and even expected for one to give oneself up to publicly and totally grieving-for as long as it takes. The men and women both are expected to weep uncontrollably.

When was the last time any of us ever did that?

In summary, I loved it and was amazed that I found it so entrancing through out.

Would obviously love to hear how those with military background respond to the book.

Fagles was the first translation I read as a whole ,illiad then later Odyssey when it came out in the early 90's having read a bit of the Pope translation before. Latter I read both in whole in the fitzgerald and in part from others and still prefer the contemporary language of Fitzgerald although you loose some nice archaic language and 19th century pretty prose etc.

Someone said "On the one hand women are treated like mere chattel but they fight wars over them. You figure..." You have to remember this was a time when "saftey in numbers" was a serious matter i.e. less women (because of the historical fact of kidnapping along the Aegean by pirates and in mainland Greece etc.) meant less power. Some call the story an idealization but a guy like Agamemnon (and you see them today i.e. a gang leader style king) is gonna say "what's the point of wearing the crown if people can piss on you".

some said "i have a great deal of trouble tho with books that try and explain The Iliad as if its an historical account of a real episode, ie barry strauss. its a myth" a "myth" no, a Epic Poem born of history and contaning myth yes. See mircea eliade on the formation of "myths" out of events and books like "did the greeks believe in their myths" Study more history and don't have contempt for men's life histories because they are distant and clothed in fantastic drapery.

Old Sarge treats Agammemnon "king of king's shepherd of the flock (sound like Jesus, no? hehe)" etc and the guy unanimously chosen head of the expedition, with contempt. I picture him a bit like a Humphrey Bogart i.e. always "Bogarting" peoples stuff and quicker witted then some like Achilles who we are told was no good in "battles of words which other men win." this could mean also no good at council although the strongest fighter like Alexander of Macedon who idolized him.

My first experience with the books of Homer were very painfully bored and horrible, but I think I was too young to read it, many years later i got my eye on a good Spanish translation (from Gredos) and them the fun came back, after reading it just came to my mind how many amazing things I have missed and some many more are still the same after many millenniums. Oldsarge your comments on the Iliad are very interesting, keep them coming, many thanks.

Total trivia that is of no use to you anywhere:

1-Homer's suggestion of goat cheese in wine may work but it did not work for me.

2-Homer's suggestion of honey in wine did work for me and was a surprise.

3-Homer coined the phrase 'dogs of war' in The Iliad.

Ok so I was wondering if there are any folks out there who have read both :
The Oresteia and The Iliad...?

I just finished reading the former and am curious what you folks think of both.

For what it is worth I found the latter to be far more beautifully written and the former to be far deeper psychologically. Really two totally different books.

One thing for sure, those folks back in 850 BC sure were as human as we are now and definitely lived life more fully emotionally than we can today. I mean fully folks; unbelievable.

Love the Oresteia, it was the first piece of Greek drama I read and I can still quote some lines from memory, the Richmond Lattimore version is beautiful and cries out to be read aloud with passion e.g.

'And as he died he spattered me with the dark red
and violent driven rain of bitter savoured blood
to make me glad'

(spoken by an enraged and insane Clytaemestra standing over the dead bodies of her husband and his lover, spitting her venom and fury over the man who betrayed her. Try reading it out loud, its wonderful stuff).

My copy is heavily heavily annotated though and there are lots of meanings that are missed by our modern readings and only become clear with the background of Greek myth/culture/ an expert eye. I love the fact that the manifesting of strong emotions in this way (and humour with Aristophanes etc) were such an important part of Greek cultural and religious life, I guess because it was so different to everyday life in Greek towns with the societal controls-these festivals allowed people to honour the gods by breaking free a little. Its worth considering the fact that these plays were put on as part of religious festivals, in theatres in the shadow of major temples such as the Parthenon, or the temple at Delphi.
The Greeks were afraid of these sort of emotionally uncontrolled and powerful women which is why they appear so often in tragedy e.g. Medea, Clytaemestra to contrast with the woman who acts beyond her position but in the 'right' way, such as Electra, Antigone and even Cassandra, who is after all just a pawn of the gods and still allows her life to be controlled by men. Clytaemestra has 'male strength of heart', she is ruling in Agamemnon's absence having CHOSEN her partner Aegisthus who is 'womanish'. She has set every accepted notion on its head and even though from our point of view she is justified in being angry - Agamemnon killed their daughter Iphegenia to get a fair wind to go to war (and possibly had her raped first as killing a virgin is a mortal sin), buggered off for ten years before returning with a foreign slave girl who he wants her to accept into their household, but she is wholly in the wrong in the eyes of the Greeks which is why she gets her comeuppance. All the nuances of the story of the House of Atreus were as well known to the Greeks as the story of Cinderella is to us, but because we dont have this background it is hard to pick up on all of this.

I was left a little cold by the Iliad, even with some of the important aspects of Greek tradition such as kleos etc explained, I guess because it relates much less to my own personal experience, it definitely comes across as more masculine.

The Iliad (I also recommend the Lattimore version) was so much more longwinded (is it Book 6 that is the Book of the Ships-dear god that dragged on) but I did love the meddling that the gods did in the lives of their chosen side. Greek gods are so much more human than those in modern monotheistic religions; they bicker, sulk and storm, poke and prod humanity in all sorts of interesting ways and use their powers to get their own way.I find the deities of the Greeks and Romans so fascinating, my daughter was very close to being an Athena or an Artemis if my husband hadnt vehemently disapproved.

Having said all of that I first read the Iliad at the age of 17 and havent read it since I was 21 so perhaps a reread may be in order. I read the Oresteia ever year or so and love it as much as I did the first time I read it.

I hope some of that made sense, I am typing very fast before my son wakes up for his feed!

Thank you very much for you commentary; greatly appreciated. It was just what I was looking for.

Yes to

"the manifesting of strong emotions"

It makes contemporary life appear so wimpy by comparison.

The Iliad is very much longer and yes can meander and get lost at times, but what I loved were all the magnificent similes that I have never seen before anywhere in literature.

My translations are by Robert Fagles for The Iliad as well as the Oresteia. It sounds as if I have to read other translations as well to get the full flavor.

Speaking of reading more can you suggest what I should read next if I have read: the Odyssey, The Iliad, the Oresteia, and the Theban Plays?

I am not a scholar but rather just want to read the necessary basics so as to build a foundation before going on.

I have discovered Ancient Greek history and culture late in life but it is definitely beginning to draw me in.

Ur, I think you have been ducking Hesiod whose writings are a pleasure and are fundamental. I meanwhile have acquired The Oresteia because of LibraryThing and have been reading other stuff instead; alackaday.

Robert

Everybody translates the Greek differently, so its definitely worth having a look at other translations. I have three very different translations of the Aeneid, two verse and one prose and they all manage to say the same things in very different ways and with slightly different emphasis.
Further reading:
Euripides for serious tragedy, love his Medea, Bacchae and Electra.

Aristophanes if you can take the rudeness and can picture all the participants in outlandishly padded costumes with giant stuffed phalluses.

Sophocles' Ajax is good too and he also has a version of the Electra which is interesting to compare to Euripides.

Aeschylus wrote three other plays (The Persians, Prometheus Bound and The Seven Against Thebes) but they were not quite to my taste, perhaps you will find them interesting.

Not Greek but I like the Aeneid.

Its worth getting a good companion book on Greek Myth and Legend to fill out some of the back story, such as http://www.librarything.com/work/15024/book/41927545 by Robert Graves which is annotated.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Athens-Introduction-Classical-Athenian/dp/05216985...

is a good source based intro to Athenian life and the circumstances surrounding the performance of these plays but Athens by Meier is a better narrative read.

Well I have read Christian Meier's Athens-A Portrait of the City in the Golden Age and found it helpful. Maybe that was a start.

Thanks for the suggestions as to the next readings. From what you write I sense you have no prioritized preference as to translators, although you like Lattimore. If you ever care to I would be interested in how you rate the translators. Have you ever read Pope's Odyssey? All my readings were done by Robert Fagles who as people know died a couple of years ago.

Thanks so much for your guidance.

For those people who are reading over our shoulders on this, they may be interested to know from wikipedia..

Kleos (Greek: κλέος) is the Greek word often translated to "renown", or "glory". It is related to the word "to hear" and carries the implied meaning of "what others hear about you". A Greek hero earns kleos through accomplishing great deeds, often through his own death.

Kleos is invariably transferred from father to son; the son is responsible for carrying on and building upon the "glory" of the father.

I prefer the Lattimore/Grene University of Chicago versions but that is a personal preference as I think he captures the pure poetry of the work. I prefer his version of The Iliad also. It has been a long while since I read the Odyssey and I only read one version of that (although I appear to own three versions according to Librarything) again, lattimore. There are extremely good companion volumes to his translations as well e.g. http://www.librarything.com/work/3099453/book/43949483. I am not very keen on the Loeb translations of Greek and Roman classics, they tend to quite sanitised in a Victorian kind of way, with a very old fashioned turn of phrase. The exception is Martial's epigrams which I enjoy in that translation.

With Aristophanes I like the Penguin translation best. I found another version a while back which used a much more modern translation but it was lacking something, it was almost too funky and cool and missed what I felt were the more interesting features of the plays.

When it comes to the Aeneid, I think the Penguin prose version comes pretty close to the original Latin, it certainly made the best 'crib' when I was translating it for Latin class.

My husband would tell me off for using Greek terms without explanation, sorry, my fault. Kleos is the most important thing in the life of a hero, it defines his actions and the course of his life. Kleos is the reputation that means you are remembered after your death and get to stay in the Elysian Fields in the afterlife. Those without kleos or with insufficient go to the Asphodel Fields and blurry oblivion. The desire for Kleos drives the hero to greater and more impressive deeds and ultimately the early death that characterises the type.

The other important thing to the Greeks is the idea of 'guest-friendship' or xenia-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenia_%28Greek%29

Thanks very much for your gift of the very comprehensive answer; most appreciated.

No problem, its one of my pet subjects. Plus I am avoiding doing housework!

Of interest in The Iliad is frequent mention of women with their 'loose lustrous hair' and 'beautiful ankles.' I am not sure how often authors today would focus on those physical attributes to the exclusion of all others as is the case with The Iliad.

Possibly sexual attraction is more a cultural phenomenon than is often thought. In certain Pacific islands women are welcome to walk about without any upper torso covering, however, their thighs must always be covered.

Herewith some selected quotes from my Robert Fagles translation of The Iliad with pages as noted:

111
So now let no man hurry to sail for home, not yet…
Not till he beds down with a faithful Trojan wife,
Payment in full for the groans and shocks of war
We have all borne for Helen.

121
The brilliant runner Achilles lay among his ships,
Raging over Briseis, the girl with lustrous hair,
The prize he seized from Lyrnessus—

133
The old men of the realm held seats above the gates.
Long years had brought their fighting days to a halt
But they were eloquent speakers still, clear as cicadas
Settled on treetops, lifting their voices through the forest,
Rising softly, falling, dying away…..So they waited,
The old chiefs of Troy, as they sat aloft the tower.

241
As a garden poppy, burst into red bloom, bends,
Drooping its head to one side, weighed down
By its full seeds and a sudden spring shower,
So Gorgythion’s head fell limp over one shoulder,
Weighed down by his helmet.

270
the girl with lovely ankles.

361
Both fighters at one great stroke
Chipped at each other—Pisander hacked the horn
Of the horsehair-crested helmet right at its ridge,
Lunging as Menelaus hacked Pisander between the eyes,
The bridge of the nose, and bone cracked, blood sprayed
And both eyes dropped at his feet to mix in the dust—
He curled and crashed. Digging a heel in his chest
Menelaus stripped his gear and vaunted out in glory,
“So home you run from our racing ships, by god,
all as corpses-see, you death-defying Trojans? Never sated with shattering war cries, are you?
Nor do you lack the other brands of outrage,
All that shame you heaped on me, you rabid dogs!…

426
Patroclus rising beside him stabbed his right jawbone,
ramming the spearhead square between his teeth so hard
he hooked him by that spearhead over the chariot-rail, hoisted, dragged the Trojan out as an angler perched
on a jutting rock ledge drags some fish from the sea,
some noble catch, with line and glittering bronze hook.
So with the spear Patroclus gaffed him off his car,
His mouth gaping round the glittering point
And flipped him down facefirst
Dead as he fell, his life breath blown away.

A few quick comments:

#31 - I haven't read Pope's Odyssey but I have read parts of his The Iliad. You have to remember when reading it that Pope was as much playing around with the form of poetry than he was trying to render a faithful translation, so enjoy it for what it is.

#25 - The Oresteia is utterly fantastic. If you ever have the chance, try reading it in the throne room of Agamemnon's palace at Mycenae. Quite amazing. The passion, tension and drama is captured so well. It is quite good to read later versions of the myth as well, to see what angles are taken later on, always remembering that the plays were written for performance in public at the annual Athenian drama festival.

#20 - I also struggle with the myth as history type of idea. I think it is VERY doubtful that the war was actually fought over Helen and think trade routes are the more likely explanation, although there is a fair bit of modern scholarship that disputes that

Just my .02!

#37 sounds like I was not the only one to stick the oresteia et al into my suitcase on a trip to Greece. My favourite place wasthe theatre at Delphi looking out over the mountains and valleys, truly awesome in the direct meaning of the word. Gave me a real understanding of why the Greeks included drama in their religious festivals.

RE: Homer

I have been reading on the topic of Homer and am curious if people have any insight on whether or not he existed. The following seems to sum up what I have been reading. Can others shed more light on the topic?

from wikipedia:

Homer (Ancient Greek: Ὅμηρος, Hómēros) is a legendary ancient Greek epic poet, traditionally said to be the author of the epic poems the Iliad and the Odyssey. The ancient Greeks generally believed that Homer was an historical individual, but modern scholars are skeptical: no reliable biographical information has been handed down from classical antiquity,1 and the poems themselves manifestly represent the culmination of many centuries of oral story-telling and a well-developed "formulaic" system of poetic composition. According to Martin West, "Homer" is "not the name of a historical poet, but a fictitious or constructed name."2

The date of Homer's existence was controversial in antiquity and is no less so today. Herodotus said that Homer lived 400 years before his own time, which would place him at around 850 BC;3 but other ancient sources gave dates much closer to the supposed time of the Trojan War.4 The date of the Trojan War was given as 1194–1184 BC by Eratosthenes, who strove to establish a scientific chronology of events and this date is gaining support because of recent archaeological research.citation needed

For modern scholarship, "the date of Homer" refers to the date of the poems' conception as much as to the lifetime of an individual. The scholarly consensus is that "the Iliad and the Odyssey date from the extreme end of the 9th century BC or from the 8th, the Iliad being anterior to the Odyssey, perhaps by some decades",5 i.e., somewhat earlier than Hesiod,6 and that the Iliad is the oldest work of western literature. Over the past few decades, some scholars have argued for a 7th-century date. Those who believe that the Homeric poems developed gradually over a long period of time, however, generally give a later date for the poems: according to Gregory Nagy, they became fixed texts in only the 6th century.7

Alfred Heubeck states that the formative influence of the works of Homer in shaping and influencing the whole development of Greek culture was recognized by many Greeks themselves, who considered him to be their instructor.8

no reliable biographical information has been handed down from classical antiquity

That's accurate but hardly surprising. First of all "Homer" was an echo of the past at the classical stage of antiquity. Second, we have very little info - let alone reliable biographical data - about anybody living in the Greek world at the supposed era of Homer.

the poems themselves manifestly represent the culmination of many centuries of oral story-telling and a well-developed "formulaic" system of poetic composition.

That doesn't mean the ultimate form in which they have come down to us wasn't penned down by somebody - in fact it must have -, and that somebody may or may not have been called "Homer".

Hi Folks,

My sense is that this Iliad thing is going to be with me for life, so, anyone bored by the topic please totally disregard what follows.

At this point in my studies I have read the Robert Fagles translation as well as listened to the Penguin audiobook of same.

I am somewhat familiar with the translations by Pope, Lattimore, and Fitzgerald. However, I have two specific questions for those who know far more than I on this topic:

1-Are you familiar with M.L. West translation of the Iliad -Studies in the text and transmission of the Iliad, M.L. West-and what do you think of it?

2-If you are not, where could I find out about it? Since it costs over $230 I am a bit reluctant to buy and try blind folded. It is not listed on Amazon......

Thanks.

Ur.

1. No just the author from his other books on greek poetry

2.Have you access to any university libraries? My old university would allow non-students to pay a certain amount of money for a library card and privileges but didnt advertise the fact. Once I had graduated I went back to get one after I got chatting to a member of staff, I dont know how much it costs though as I got mine free.

Other options- ask the publisher (if they want you to shell out $230 I'd want more info), ask other academics in the field (email addresses from websites).

Thanks so much for all the great suggestions.

Based on your info I have asked my wife (The Librarian) to try to get it on an inter-library loan. Will probably take about 4 weeks.

In the meantime I will work with my studies of:

-The Cambridge Companion to Homer by Fowler
-A New Companion to Homer by Powell.

That should keep me busy.

And if you ever get time in the future, when you have spare time, do share with us what it was like to do grad work in Ancient History.

Boring, interesting, tedious?

And at such a fine school too.

Thanks so much again.

Ur.

Am in the midst of reading
Studies in the Text and Transmission of the Iliad by Martin West

So I am still going through my Homer phase, of which the above is only the most recent example.

I suggest that no one read this, for several reasons:

1-The table of contents:
a-The Pre-Alexandrian Transmission
b-Zenodotus' Text
c-Didymus and his Sources
d-The Papyri
e-The Early Medieval Transmission
f-The New Teubner Edition

etc.

2-The language in which it is written is, I guess, scholarly, but guaranteed to use words I have no idea about.

3-The major portions of the book discuss Greek text in Greek. (no fair...8( )

So I don't know when you picked up a book that was truly substantive but left you totally lacking but this did it for me.

Of course if anyone ever does pick this up and is able to make sense of it, I would love to hear from them.

You want arcane? You got it here.

With that understood, I was able to glean some useful tidbits and here are some quotes that some people interested in Homer may find of interest:

West, Martin L., Studies in the Text and Transmission of the Iliad

3
The first complete text probably consisted of a collection of papyrus rolls. (Parchment is also possible.)…

It may be assumed that each verse was written on a separate line, according to the standard Greek practice attested since the time of “Nestor’s Cup” inscription from Ischia (the format was very likely taken over from the Near East.) In the mid seventh century the text would have been written from right to left or ..boustrophedon… the three verses of Nestor’s cup are all written from right to left, and this might reflect a practice established for books of verse.
4
I –(ML West) accepts the usual view that he (the writer) was an Ionian who spent his life largely or wholly in western Asia Minor, moving between the Meaeander valley and the Troad. If so, he is likely to have used an East Ionic alphabet of twenty five letters.

5-footnote
rhapsode-The word is first attested in the 5th century and often taken to mean by definition a non-creative reciter as opposed to …..someone else. But the ancients do not contrast the two terms.
15
From the 5th century on, there are references to what has often been understood as some sort of rhapsodes’ guild: the Homerida. They are particularly associated with chios. We gather that they recited hymnic prooimia and epics, which they attributed to their supposed ancestor “Homer”. They also told stories about his life and were concerned to spread his fame.
16
I have argued in detail elsewhere that the Homeridai were a professional association, not a clan, and that Homer’s name was derived from their, not vice versa.
18
The 522 Panathenae came a little over a year after Polycrates’ Delian festival…
The recitations called for the collaboration of a team of rhapsodes who took turns to perform successive section of the poems. Clearly it was necessary to assign each rhapsode’s portion in advance, and this is surely the origin of the 24…”recitations’ into which each epic was traditionally divided. The prestige of the Panathenaic recitations and the dominance of Athenian books in the pre-Alexandrian transmission led to these divisons being regularly marked in the margins of rolls and acquiring a lasting status.
19
The governing considerations were that each segment needed to be of a convenient length for a single rhapsode to manage, and that each poem had to be distributed in an orderly way over the festival time available. According to two late scholiasts, the Great Panathenaea lasted four days. If the Homeric recitations were spread over all four, as seems likely, the division of the epics into 24 recitations makes good sense, whether the Iliad and Odyssey ran concurrently, with six greek word of each per day, or were squeezed into two days apiece.

I'm rereading The Iliad. Actually listening to an audiobook of the Stanley Lombardo translation. Lombardo is the narrator and Susan Sarandon reads the chapter headings. There is also some primitive music in the background. Each time I read this book I seem to find new things. I also know the story well enough that I can look forward to my favorite scenes. This time I want to pay special attention to the scene of the fight between Achilles and the river god Scamander. My favorite scene is the meeting between Priam and Achilles when Priam comes to get Hector's body.
Even though I know the story very well the language is still excellent and worth the time I spend with the book.

Bill,

Many thanks for your comments; greatly appreciated.

I never heard of the Stanley Lombardo translation and am eager to know what you think.

I obviously am going to have to switch my focus from my enjoyment of the similes or metaphors to the areas that you highlight.

Thank you very much for posting. (My wife doesn't let me talk about The Iliad anymore; she has heard too much already.)

I will definitely await your comments....

Ur.

note:

Review
"It is hard to overstate the attractions of this translation. In a rhythm sinewy and flexible, with language that is precise, lyrical and fresh, Lombardo's Iliad pulses with all the power and luminosity of the Greek. He shows extraordinary sensitivity to the images and aural effects of the ancient poem. There are brilliant touches on every page... The narrator's voice sounds contemporary without losing authority or resonance, while his heroesfrom an archaic time speak a racy, hard-bitten idiom completely recognisableto our own Iron Age. Altogether this is as good as Homer gets in English." --Richard P Martin, Professor of Classics, Princeton University.

I need to get off my lazy ass and return to my reading of this. It would seem that I at least motivated folks here to go back and take another look at it.

What a lot of people do not know is that OldSarge has had the guts to keep The Iliad (Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition) by Homer on his Currently reading list.

Many others would long ago have deleted it and moved on to other stuff; but he has kept it there for a long time. I am very impressed by that.

This guy has high standards and does not fool around.

Ur.

I have been enjoying this thread whenever it pops past me and have added the Illiad and Oddyssey to my list for 2011. (I am a challenge reader.) I have the Fagles translation and read snippets of the Lattimore in college, eons ago. I will need to check out the Lombardo. No question but that this thread inspired me to move from "some day" to "next year definitely". Thanks.