***Group Read: The Lensman Series (SPOILERS)

Some of us would like to read E. E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series - space opera at it's Golden Age best! Here's the thread for discussion with SPOILERS.

We're kicking off discussion of the Lensman series with Triplanetary tomorrow, but I thought I'd share a tidbit a little early. Wikipedia has a pretty good write-up on the series at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman

Warning, though. It's about the entire series, so there are plenty of spoilers for later books!

Here's a quote I liked:

"Although E. E. Smith wrote the Skylark series earlier, this was the original "Space Opera"! It had it all. Brave and incorruptible heroes sporting blasters, beautiful women to woo and win, a plethora of evil villains to destroy, and battles in space between great fleets of space ships with weapons that boggle the mind, all taking place in a war that has been going on for two billions of years. When read today the writing seems overblown and verbose, and prose smacks of Victorian England. The story lines seem old hat and much over used. This is because the writing is overblown and verbose, and Smith's prose is the language of his childhood in the Mauve Decade(1890s). The plots seem over used because through the years they have been used and over used, too many times to count. But this was the first. After his death in 1965, it seems as if Smith's works are being continuously reprinted and still to considerable popular acclaim. Perhaps he had the last laugh after all."

I am doing the group read, though for me it is a re-read. I have read the series (though not the last 2 books) many times. The Lensman was the first SF I read it grade school. They were my dad's - he only had 4, and it was just recently I found out there were really 6.

I started reading Triplanetary but got bogged down and had to put it aside to read other required books for RL book groups.

I think I am in a bit of a reading slump. I had a slow December and its not really picked up yet. I will pop in here, and keep reading though.

Remember that discussion starts here on the spoiler thread tomorrow, January 8. Of course, it already IS January 8 for some of you, so feel free to start.

Well, I 'll get it going.

Not my favorite of the Lensman books, by a long shot. I don't really mind the overblown language...that's part of the charm. I do, however, mind the fact that it's all sort of cobbled together. I think this feeling is due to two things: the first couple stories are simply too brief to allow you to bond with the characters and the main novella was an existing story that was kludged into the series after the fact.

In a sense, this volume is a prologue to the real story about the Lensmen, which will start in the next volume and build up into the best books of the series (imo): Gray Lensman and Second Stage Lensmen. You get some foreshadowing about the Lenses in the comments Costigan and others make, plus the musings of the Arisians, but you have to wait until the next volume for this to become a Lensman story.

All-in-all, if this was a stand-alone book, I'd never re-read it. However, I have a fond place in my heart for the rest of the series...so onward!

Tad, you capture my feelings exactly. Although the Atlantis episode is one that was etched in my mind from my first reading, it is too brief to really care about the characters.

The dialogue is truly from the *BAM*POW*! school of language use, and as such can be enjoyed. Especially the love banter! I just picture it in Marvel comic balloons.

The things that I notice particularly are: first, the relative disdain for absolutely horrific loss of life in the Nevian episode. Twice the whole Triplanetary fleet was completely melted, plus one Nevian city, and although I believe in each case there was a sentence that expressed regret and horror, there was no other emotional impact. And second, the turn-around time on new inventions. Oh, we see the Nevian's do this, let's figure out how--oh, here you are!

This is a book of its time, definitely comic-book flavor. I definitely agree, the involvement in the story starts in the next book.

And don't forget Pittsburgh (a steel town, if ever there was one!) got melted down.

According to wikipedia, Triplanetary was modified to make it consistent with the Lensman universe, and I think it shows. I'm of the opinion that this one's the worst of the bunch and it's too cobbled together. I think treating these as essentially comic books is the right approach. Certainly, the feel is the same.

I was struck this time through by how many later sf stories were influenced - or at least show elements of - the Lensman story arc:

(1) Babylon 5's central conflict between the Vorlons and the Shadows is the Arisia/Eddore conflict.

(2) The Death Star in Star Wars is Roger's planetoid from Triplanetary. The mega-sized space battles are right from space opera like this. The whole Lensman concept sounds a whole lot like the Jedi to me.

(3) Star Trek's Star Fleet is at least related to the Triplanetary Service and the later Galactic Patrol.

There are others that'll come up later, I'm sure.

I suspect that most of the science fiction from the 50s and 60s was influence at least a little by this stuff. E.g., Andre Norton's "Patrol"...open to beings from all races...certainly doesn't sound too far off the Galatic Patrol.

The whole Pittsburgh thing seems an anomaly. I can't think of another place in the books where humans get wiped out as casually as that. Aliens do...but they're not human (and, therefore, don't count really, do they?). The Nevians are also a bit out of character—usually the aliens in the other books are either our enemies, our friends, or our enemies-who-become-good-buddies. Rarely are they enemies who we end up neutral about. I think that the fact that Triplanetary was intended as a stand-alone story shows, not only in the choppiness, but in the general attitude.

Roni...yes, the speed of development is astounding. Especially when you consider that Smith was a chemical engineer by trade, so he might be expected to know something about development times. My recollection is that this also slows down in the other books.

I had never read Triplanetary before and am glad to hear that it is the worst of the books or I would not bother reading the rest. It has some of the most insipid dialogue between Clio and Murph that I have ever read (and I used to read Harlequins by the score!).

The whole book reads like it was smooshed together - an idea from here, an idea from there . . .

9: The smooshed together part is farily common in older science fiction - most science fiction writers made their money writing shorter pieces for magazines. When they became popular, publishers wanted to put out book length material, and most of the writers of the genre and era did at least one fix-up of their magazine work. This creates some odd books - A. E. van Vogt's War Against the Rull is a collection of unrelated stories mashed together, so much unrelated that the Rull (the aliens of the story) have different characteristics in just about every other chapter.

Ah, I did not realize that the smooshing together was so prevalent.

>9 alcottacre:: I think you'll find that the smooshing goes away. I don't think you'll find the insipid dialogue going away so much...it's characteristic of the 30s pulp fiction. For me, it's part of the charm...I get kick out of reading about "steely-eyed men" going forth to "do battle" for "their mate." As Roni said, they're comic books to us.

#12: Thanks for the heads up on what to expect, Tad. I can change my expectations to match the books.

I was in a reading slump, and was slogging through it. I put it down. I think my slump is gone and I have picked it back up. The parts from WWI on seem better, the writing is smoother, and the stories more coherent, the characters have a bit more depth. I am not a comic book fan, so that doesn't work for me. I just realize it is old, and don't try to judge it the same as a modern work.

I know some people hate the books because the writing quality is so low, but since I read them as a kid they are protected by an emotional cocoon. Not sure I could get through them as an adult if I didn't have the connection from childhood.

I am now also reading my required books for RL book groups, so not sure when I will finish. Won't be able to start the next one until the end of this month.

I finally finished Triplanetary. Such a long time to read such a short book. But the printing was small and dense on the page.

I agree about the choppy quality of the stories. I did see Star Wars and Star Trek flash by as I was reading (never bothered with B5).

The Arisians reminded me of the aliens in Star Trek on the planet where they had mind control and Captain Jeffrey Pike crashed. Forget the names, But I saw these tall white dudes with big heads and long gowns.

Besides being stilted the writing is very over the top emotionally, which is kind of funny when you think the subjects were these manly men being heroic and scientific, as well as the audience being young males.

Smith loved the word 'ultra'. Thought the use of 'plates' instead of 'screens' was interesting, also the calculations they did by hand during battles.

Will be starting The First Lensman another reread, and I hope it will be better and quicker to read.

Tomorrow is the first of February, time to start reading First Lensman. We'll start discussion here on the spoiler thread on Sunday, February 7. First Lensman was the last book written in the series while our March book, Galactic Patrol, was the first.

The Cosmos paperback version of Triplanetary that includes the Masters of Space story as a double is not the rewrite. It is only Costigan, Roger, and the Nevians. No vignettes, no billions of years of history, no Atlantis, no Arisians, ... The blurb on the back suggests the expanded Lensman version of the story. The stand alone version is a lot more cohesive than the Lensman version, but is missing the majority of the Lensman lead in elements. From a previous reading, I'd say the vignettes really feel crammed into the story. I almost think it would have been better to expand the shorts and make them a separate story.

I like the imagery of seeing the dialog in comic book bubbles, it fits. The language and stereotypes are products of the time, but they match well with space opera. Smith is not at his best portraying women. Life and death is treated fairly casually in space opera. How many times is a base or fleet wiped out and comes back bigger and stronger than before.

Triplanetary is an okay, but not great start to the Lensman Saga. The rewrite from stand alone to start of the series hurt the cohesion of the story. The other books are written from the start as part of the Lensman series and the difference shows.

This was my first (complete) reading of Triplanetary, and I'm glad I joined the group read. Others seem to be making apologies for it (the other books are better), but I liked it.

But then, my expectations weren't high. I started to read it years ago, on the advice of a friend who said that Lensmen was the Greatest! Science! Fiction! Series! Ever!! I think I only got as far as the World War stories when I tossed it aside in disgust at the ridiculous language, the incoherent plotting, and the cardboard characters.

So this time my expectations were a bit lower.

Make no mistake, the language is ridiculous (my favorite new word of the month: "ultra-stubby"); the plotting is incoherent (WTF is that World War story about, anyway?); the characters are cardboard (with apologies to cardboard). But once I muscled past the World War bits the book turned out to be a lot of fun in a Flash-Gordon-movie-serial kind of way. The introductory vignettes really don't belong, and I'm with Landshark in thinking that they'd have been better as a separate work.

So now I'm looking forward to First Lensman.

Reminder: We are now open for discussion on First Lensman. I've been at a conference for the last three days, so am not quite done with this re-read--will be by tonight. Go ahead. But don't you love the rooms full of computer equipment and, back at headquarters, stacks of cards of data being fed into them?

This book, First Lensman, was the last book written in the series, basically a prequel to look at how the Lenses were first created and how the Galactic Patrol was formed. How successful do you think Smith was at doing this? Which was worse, the love talk in the first book, or the Kinnison/Samms sparring between Jack and Virgilia in this book? What was the highlight of the book for you?

I liked First Lensman quite a bit better than Triplanetary. The plot flowed better, things were more galactic in scale like true space opera should be. Since the original Lensman series was written so much earlier than this one, there were times when Smith seemed to be reining in what was learned about science and technology in the meantime to make things consistent with the Lensman universe. The highlight for me was probably the trip to Rigel (?) where the sensory overload almost overwhelmed him. It was just a neat presentation of an alien world.

Written from the beginning as a Lensman book, First Lensman comes off much better and has an advantage over Triplanetary where the Lensman elements were added in a rewrite. While there are plenty of people and ships involved in Triplanetary, with First Lensman you start to get the feeling of epic scope and grandeur that makes this space opera. The fleet sizes get exponentially larger and the number of people involved increases with each large scale action.
The Kinnison/Samms sparring is preferable to the Clio/Conway dialog. While there are plenty of people who have trouble expressing themselves, that doesn't make it any easier to read.
In terms of setting up the Galactic Patrol, the story does an okay job, but the Lens really is lacking set up and its acceptance by everybody except the bad guys just happens and is glossed over. The story's critical point was the election of Rod Kinnison affirming the Galactic Patrol, but really the Patrol was created in a by their bootstraps self election. The ceding of sovereignty to the Patrol would never have occurred without the juxtaposition of good and evil. The patronizing and elitist attitude of the Lensmen would have really rubbed the wrong way if the opposition hadn't been so evil. Someone, in this case the Lensmen, needs to stand up to the bad guys and protect humanity.

First Lensman was mostly fun, and was certainly an improvement over the cobbled-together Triplanetary.

Still, I felt a lot like I do watching "Birth of a nation": I recognize the craft, and appreciate but ye gods what a movie. In "Birth of a nation" the problem is racism; in First Lensman it's misogyny.

Look at Jill, who everyone agrees is as able as any man. Alas, she lacks the proper reproductive tools so she gets to play a chaste Mata Hari, a helpless Polly Pureheart, and a shiny decoration for Mason Northrop's arm. Yawn. Still, it's a better fate than Clio Costigan's. Well, so far anyway.

On the other hand, Samms can overcome another sort of chauvinism as he realizes that some Palainians might be fit to wear the lens:

"By a conscious, a tremendous effort, the First Lensman was lifting himself above the narrow, intolerant prejudices of human experience and was consciously attempting to see the whole through Mentor's Arisian mind instead of through his Tellurian own."

I wonder whether Samm's ability to overcome xenophobia but not sexism reflects the integration of the U.S. armed forces. First Lensman was published in 1950, so that would have been an issue of public discussion as Smith wrote the book.

Gender stereotypes yes, Misogyny no. I'd argue sexism and a parochial worldview is not the same as a hatred of women. Jill is one of the most important characters in the story. She provides warning and stops the assassination, she provides more information to the intelligence gathering effort than any single lensman, and is heavily involved in setting up the cosmocrat campaign. She is more than arm candy for Mason and arguably more important than Northrup or the younger Kinnison in this story. Yes it is a product of the time it was written and Smith is obviously uncomfortable writing women. But you can also see a progression in his work. In the Skylark series written before the Lensman, the women exist to be placed in danger and rescued and drop from main characters to secondary characters as soon as the marriage contact is signed. In Triplanetary, original story written in 1934, Clio is nothing but a love interest and rescue object. In First Lensman, published in 1950, Jill is a strong, important character with purpose in the story besides being a damsel in distress and love interest and other than not being given a lens, definitely is not treated as anything other than an equal by the lensmen. Also, while top dog experienced lensmen ended up in political authority, they were essentially an elite unit of the military/police and even today, there is argument about placing women in combat positions so by 30's/40's mores, women lensmen would have been problematic.

#24: point taken -- my knee may have jerked a bit too quickly. I'll be interested to see how Smith handles gender in the next books, comparing this later work to the earlier ones to see the progression you describe.

Still, I disagree with you about sexism and parochialism. They may be intentional or not; they may result from an active animus against women or they may be prejudices absorbed passively from one's environment. Sexism and a parochial worldview are manifestations of misogyny.

Notice: Discussion of Book 3 in the Lensman series starts this Sunday, March 7. Time to start Galactic Patrol, actually the first real book of the series. See what you think!

Okay, I've read in your threads that several of you have finished already. Stasia said, if I recall correctly, that this is her favorite so far. Let's hear what you thought!

I'm an old Lensman fan, grew up on it. Love the stories, but had to laugh during this reread. Our first female character appears on page 167 of 237, the only female character named. (Yes, they refer to one other nurse by name, but she is never onstage.)

And this example of Smith's deathless prose:
"And on and on the speedster flashed at the very peak of her unimaginably high speed; carrying the insensible, the utterly spent, the sorely wounded, the abysmally unconscious Lensman toward his native Earth."

How can ya top that?

"Minions of the law" was the phrase that got me. I was laughing out loud at that one.

I had never even heard of the Lensman books until LT, so I did not grow up no them.

Taken as good old-fashioned fun, Galactic Patrol worked for me. You have the Hero who sets out to save the world and you know that despite the odds against him, he will get it done! Ta da, the end.

Well, I suppose it's time to 'fess up. One of the main reasons I liked these so much as a kid is that I share a last name with our hero, Kimball. It's unusual enough that I've actually only ever met one other with that name who wasn't a family member. Made quite an impact on me when I came across a series of books about us!

Moving this back up to the top of the threads in the hope that some of the rest of you have finished Galactic Patrol by now and will chime in!

I'll agree with Stasia that Galactic Patrol is my favorite of the first three books in the series.

I like the prose, it adds to the atmosphere of the series. And if you think reading it brings a smile, imagine the narrator in the audio version seriously reading it in his best straight man style.

A stylist difference I noticed was that First Lensman has an ensemble cast and Galactic Patrol had multiple important characters, but they were all secondary and the focus was squarely on Kinnison.

drneutron, I can think of worse reasons to like a series than a name. I've never run into my last name in a book, but I have given books a bump up or down in my personal ratings depending on the actions of a namesake.

Discussion of Gray Lensman is coming up on April 8, Thursday. Time to pull out your copy and start reading!! The continuing saga of Kimball Kinnison continues.

Finished Galactic patrol this weekend. This is the first book that made me wish I'd encountered the series earlier. I think I understand the appeal now.

The talk about MacDougall's skeleton is a bit creepy, but I wondered whether that conversation about her bones had anything to do with the osteopathic/allopathic conflict : is Smith betting on the osteopaths? Or is this just intended as light banter?

Today is the 8th, and we are now open for discussion of Gray Lensman, whenever in the next month you finish it. This continues the story arc started in Galactic Patrol with Kim Kinnison.

"Both hated Civilization and everything pertaining to it. Both wanted revenge; wanted it with a searing, furious need almost tangible; a gnawing, burning lust which neither countenanced palliation nor brooked denial. And above all, both hated vengefully, furiously, esuriently--every way except blindly--an as yet unknown and unidentified wearer of the miliion-times-accursed Lens of the Galactic Patrol."

OK, I am finished with it (although next month I must remember that this group read comes before the Prydain group read, lol). Are we ready to discuss or am I by myself?

I'm done as well, (and I have to remember to go open the Prydain discussion today). Is anyone else planning to read it for the discussion?

Unfortunately, I couldn't find my copy. I suspect that I lent it to someone and it never came back...Fortunately, I remember it, so I hope to be able to join in.

Grey Lensman comes in a very close second to Galactic Patrol of the four we've read so far in my mind. Bigger and badder, we have two galaxies instead of one, larger fleets, and more powerful weapons. Some of the Kimball/Clarissa dialog is as bad as Conway/Clio from Triplanetary. Another great story.

This would have been a vocabulary expander when I was younger. I would have definitely had a pad with me to write down words to look up later. The writings not the best, but it would make a good book for an ereader, where you can easily pop up dictionary entries as you read. There are plenty of multisyllabic adjectives and adverbs in this series, you just gotta smile reading it.

I was very disappointed in Gray Lensman. I hated the insipid dialogue between Mac and Kinnison, I thought if any of the characters said 'QX' again I would throw the book at the wall. This book just did not work for me the way the last one did. Perhaps it was my mood. I may try and re-read it before the next one.

I'd definitely call the Lensman series a mood read for me. If I find myself starting to analyze instead of enjoy, I switch to something else for a while.

Smith's idea of romantic dialog is pretty bad. I found myself alternately annoyed, simply skimming it, and laughing in a it's so bad it's good way.

QX appears to be a term created by Smith.

#40: I think you hit the nail on the head: analyzing instead of enjoying. I am going to have to get into the right frame of 'mood' to read it and will try and do it before I read the next one.

I hope that Stasia has made it through Second Stage Lensmen without throwing the book at the wall more than a dozen times, because 'QX' definitely appears again. Let's face it, Smith just did not have a gift for dialog at ALL.

The action continues fast and furious. The bad guys are badder, the space fleets are larger (you would think they would have de-populated both galaxies by this point), and I loved the wedding.

Does anyone (Storm Raven) know if all along as the books initially came out it was clear the Eddorians were behind it? I can see each book coming out without that foreshadowing, and then the next book arriving with a new level. But don't know if that's how it happened.

Let's see if everyone can come up with one particular purple prose quote that got them.

#42: I have not even started Second Stage Lensmen so the walls are safe for the time being, lol.

One particulare purple prose quote? I can probably come up with a dozen easily!

Just your favorite from this book. There are obviously many. I have two in particular, but my pages were too brittle to mark them so I have to go search through to find them again.

Does anyone (Storm Raven) know if all along as the books initially came out it was clear the Eddorians were behind it?

For the books that were printed "in order" it seems that there wasn't much in the way of foreshadowing. First Lensman was published after the others in the series, and Triplanetary was retconned into the story later as well, so the foreshadowing that occurs in them is the result of their coming after the story had been completed. Mostly it seems like in the main sequence of stories, Smith more or less just made it up as he went, adding more and more villains up the hierarchy as he went.

Hmm, 'Fraid i didn't keep track of any quotes.

No problem. Not a necessity, anyone can just comment on the book as well.

#45: Smith more or less just made it up as he went, adding more and more villains up the hierarchy as he went.

It does seem that about the time you think they have gotten rid of one bad guy another one just conveniently shows up!

Trying to think of comments that aren't repeats of what I've said of the earlier books. The action ramps up yet another notch, but the good guys have it easier this time as they take the fight to the bad guys and have less at stake than before when they were on the defensive. Even if Boskone wins an engagement, they are in no shape to attack the first galaxy for some time. Smith had to use Mentor in a more active role to keep the story on track this time. Second Stage Lensman is another fun, enjoyable installment in the Lensman series, although I will keep Galactic Patrol as my personal favorite so far.

(you would think they would have de-populated both galaxies by this point)
Considering Telus alone sent a million young men to Lensman training every year, they need the conflict to keep the galaxy from being only Patrol and support staff. Boskone would seem to have more problems with both infighting and its conflict with the Patrol.

And after another passage of incalculable forces and irresistible screens, the following popped into my head.

Inconceivable.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

#50: Love that quote! The Princess Bride is a favorite of mine.

There are plenty of other stories set in the Lensman world, but Children of the Lens is the last of the Lensman series. According to Heinlein, Smith had one more story in mind for the main narrative arc but felt it was unpublishable and no notes or anything has been found. The story does seem to effectively close out the main battle against Boskone and the Eddoreans.

Children of the Lens continues the trend of action, engagements, and adventure you expect from one of the original space opera series. While there is a ratcheting up to the next stage in the level of enemy, space combat, and new technologies, it is rather subdued compared to the expansion in the mental arena. The children are third stage lensmen, exponentially greater than the second stage and the penultimate of the breeding program created to take on the Eddoreans.

There is plenty of the action and adventure I've enjoyed through out the series. The manipulations of the second stage lensmen by the third stage children rubs me the wrong way and detracts from the story in my opinion.

The series has some features that stand out to me. The language is overdone, but it fits the framework and for the most part I smiled at the sheer number of inconceivable, incalculable, and irresistibles. It became part of the charm. Doc's ability to write women and the dialog however, was mostly uncomfortable. I occasionally chuckled in a it's so bad, it's funny type of way, but I basically started skimming those sections. The action was enjoyable. The battles were fun, but quick and decisive. You have all this build up and then the battle takes only a few minutes. This is one area Smith could have safely expanded. All in all, I found the series fun and enjoyable and would recommend it to others. Only caveat is that it is an escapist go along for the joy ride and to be read when in that mood.

edited to fix touchstone

Finished my reread of Children of the Lens on Wednesday, just now getting around to the thread! Nice wrap-up to the series. I wasn't so bothered by the link-ups of the children to the second-stage lensmen because they complemented them so well, and also because the kids got burned trying to manipulate them and learned from it. And I thought the Red Lensman finally did come out as a real, dynamic character even if her dialogue was as bad as ever.

I agree the Red Lensman came into her own finally and took an active upfront part.

I liked the way the children matched up with, complimented, and worked with the second stage lensmen. I thought each having a different strength to bring to the unit worked well and made sense in terms of a synergistic whole that was greater than the parts. I disliked the deceit and manipulation. I read it as the children got burned because of hubris and feeling that since they were better than the second stage lensmen, they knew everything they needed to. The idea that you have to keep growing and learning makes a nice morality lesson. At the end, the children/guardians are hiding information from humanity to prevent an inferiority complex throwing in a paternalistic attitude I didn't agree with.

Luckily, the action and adventure makes for a good story overall. It provides a good end to the series, wrapping up the Eddorean storyline leaving plenty of minor cleanup adventures possible and creating a set up for any future new bad guys without leaving any serious loose threads.

TadAD wrote on my thread:
Even though I've always enjoyed the Lensman series, Children of the Lens never really appealed to me. The explicit incest plans just couldn't get past my squirm factor.

I found the incest angle silly and not thought out. It would have been so easy to avoid that squick by adding a few second and third cousins that were better than average quality lensmen sort of like that double cousin set up with Virgil Samms and the Olmsteads. Since it was treated like a forced breeding setup to create the unit, you would think they would want to improve the breed as a whole at the same time. Why were there only 5 second stage lensmen? Why only 5 third stagers? Why weren't the other second stage lensmen allowed to find their perfect mates? It limits the number of high level characters to fit into the story, but doesn't really build up humanity overall.