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1modalursine
The Nation had an interesting speculative piece...
what if the Obama administration could capture of kill
Bin Laden within the next 18 mos?
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/505503/can_obama_get_osama
what if the Obama administration could capture of kill
Bin Laden within the next 18 mos?
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/505503/can_obama_get_osama
3Mr.Durick
If the President captured Osama Bin Laden would he get the $25,000,000 reward or whatever it is?
Robert
Robert
4modalursine
I suppose there are really two questions:
1. How likely is it that OBL would be captured or killed within 18 months (Too bad Nick the Greek isn't around to give odds on that.)
Come to think of it, I haven't checked out InfoTrade or the Iowa Electronic Markets. Any of those running a line of OBL?
Maybe there's a third question here....How likely is it that OBL is in fact still alive. I think it happened before that he's kept his head down for long enough that there began to be speculation and even widespread belief that he was gone, but then he surfaced again.
I'm not sure that there's been completely positive indication recently that he's still alive and kicking. No videos, at the best voice recordings and even those may or may not be the genuine article.
2. Assuming OBL is alive and therefore subject to kill or capture, and that the deed is actually accomplished, what effect would that have?
A live OBL might make more trouble for the US than its worth.
Maybe if the US were to arrange for an international body (UN? ) to charge OBL with war crimes (or something like war crimes?) and then turn him over to the Haque for processing, with maybe a US delegation for the prosecution, that might pass muster.
Otherwise, if the US does it all, it risks being perceived as a kangaroo court no matter how punctilious the US might be about following due process.
1. How likely is it that OBL would be captured or killed within 18 months (Too bad Nick the Greek isn't around to give odds on that.)
Come to think of it, I haven't checked out InfoTrade or the Iowa Electronic Markets. Any of those running a line of OBL?
Maybe there's a third question here....How likely is it that OBL is in fact still alive. I think it happened before that he's kept his head down for long enough that there began to be speculation and even widespread belief that he was gone, but then he surfaced again.
I'm not sure that there's been completely positive indication recently that he's still alive and kicking. No videos, at the best voice recordings and even those may or may not be the genuine article.
2. Assuming OBL is alive and therefore subject to kill or capture, and that the deed is actually accomplished, what effect would that have?
A live OBL might make more trouble for the US than its worth.
Maybe if the US were to arrange for an international body (UN? ) to charge OBL with war crimes (or something like war crimes?) and then turn him over to the Haque for processing, with maybe a US delegation for the prosecution, that might pass muster.
Otherwise, if the US does it all, it risks being perceived as a kangaroo court no matter how punctilious the US might be about following due process.
5timspalding
I don't think he'll be captured alive. Leaving aside the possibility that, despite public orders, nobody really wants to put him on trial and give him a platform—Milosevich times a hundred—I don't think he'd let himself be captured alive. It's very hard to capture people who are willing to die. Saddam could have gone down fighting, but he was too scared. I'd bet Bin Laden dreams about death in battle.
7modalursine
Msg #5 makes a good point. The odds on capturing the bugger alive are vanishingly small. You'ld have arrange one heck of a surprise to put a bag on him before he knows what's happening.
But suppose you had the corpse alleged to be the deceased OBL. Do we have enough pre existing id...fingerprints, dental records, dna, whatever, to make a positive identification of the body?
What if he were to be killed, but without an air tight id? Wouldnt the legend live on? From a political point of view would he really be quite dead enough?
But suppose you had the corpse alleged to be the deceased OBL. Do we have enough pre existing id...fingerprints, dental records, dna, whatever, to make a positive identification of the body?
What if he were to be killed, but without an air tight id? Wouldnt the legend live on? From a political point of view would he really be quite dead enough?
8geneg
What does a good Conservative do? Deny him due process? Murder him? Take revenge (remember Jay to whom revenge belongs) on him? Exploit him like a bear with his head in a noose? Become what we say we hate?
I pray he is already dead and whatever mess that is required to bring him to justice under the law will be avoided, but if it can't be, and he is captured, I expect Rikers has a place for him and the City of New York would like to try him for crimes committed in their jurisdiction.
Are we a nation of laws or a nation of bloodthirsty, vindictive animals? Either we trust ourselves and the law to handle cases like this or we don't. Which is it? Heaven help US if we give up on the law.
I pray he is already dead and whatever mess that is required to bring him to justice under the law will be avoided, but if it can't be, and he is captured, I expect Rikers has a place for him and the City of New York would like to try him for crimes committed in their jurisdiction.
Are we a nation of laws or a nation of bloodthirsty, vindictive animals? Either we trust ourselves and the law to handle cases like this or we don't. Which is it? Heaven help US if we give up on the law.
9OldSarge
Fight to the end? Yeah, this skell will fight to the last of his followers. He sends others out to do the fighting.
The images of him with weapons are nothing but posturing. Typical bombast. Maybe in his younger days he might have fought, but not now.
Now...he is a coward who runs and hides. Typical, we've seen the type before. Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam, Noriega, etc. Willing to bloody their hands and risk death in their younger days. But their their later years, only willing to fight to the last drop of others blood.
The images of him with weapons are nothing but posturing. Typical bombast. Maybe in his younger days he might have fought, but not now.
Now...he is a coward who runs and hides. Typical, we've seen the type before. Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam, Noriega, etc. Willing to bloody their hands and risk death in their younger days. But their their later years, only willing to fight to the last drop of others blood.
10StormRaven
9: I was watching soldiers in the army of god the other day, and was struck by the likely similarities between OBL and the older guys in this documentary in the way they cajole the younger men into doing the dirty work.
11geneg
War has always (at least since Thucydides) been about the wealthy sacrificing the young for more wealth. I fear the world is now organized, and probably has been since at least WWII, such that the real winners are the financiers of war while the losers are the countries they can sucker into going to war.
12timspalding
>9 OldSarge:, 10
Maybe at some lowest level OBL is chicken-hearted, but I think it's unlikely. Born into a life of luxury without the least risk of danger he's repeatedly and intentionally upped the danger level on himself. He's got to know he's not dying in his bed.
Maybe at some lowest level OBL is chicken-hearted, but I think it's unlikely. Born into a life of luxury without the least risk of danger he's repeatedly and intentionally upped the danger level on himself. He's got to know he's not dying in his bed.
13StormRaven
12: Oh I have no doubt that he has a pretty good idea that his life won't end in comfort. On the other hand, the old guys in soldiers in the army of god gleefully look forward to the day when they can participate in what they predict to be the coming civil war* in the U.S. over abortion and homosexuality. They aren't unwilling to fight and run the risk of dying as a concept, but they spend most of their time convincing younger guys to take one for the team right now.
*They are all convinced that people in the U.S. will be faced with a choice of having abortion and homosexual marriage or a violent break up of the Union, and that people will naturally throw those "abortionists and fags" (in their words) over the side immediately. They also think they will win this civil war. They are, of course, entirely delusional, but then again so is OBL.
*They are all convinced that people in the U.S. will be faced with a choice of having abortion and homosexual marriage or a violent break up of the Union, and that people will naturally throw those "abortionists and fags" (in their words) over the side immediately. They also think they will win this civil war. They are, of course, entirely delusional, but then again so is OBL.
14geneg
I've been thinking a little (too much thinking makes my head hurt) about this phenomenon of middle class males mostly, putting themselves in harms way, living closer to the razor's edge, as an attempt to inject something of the human into what is essentially a heavily circumscribed, restricted, plastic, unreal existence: that of middle class life.
When you think about it, we live a life unlike any other ever lived in the fifty or so thousand years of Homo Sapiens. The closest many of us come to danger is a good seat at the movies. Or when we get in our cars. Humans are made to exist and overcome in a dangerous world. We thrive on excitement, the adrenaline rush. We have essentially taken all the danger out of life. This leaves some people feeling very unfulfilled. How does a cog in a wheel make a difference? How can you establish who you are as a man if you are stuck in a tall glass building with a computer screen in your face all day? I'll bet OBL, if he is still alive is reveling in his manly ruggedness. In his humanity. OBL and the other terrorists are nothing more than romantics, albeit particularly dangerous romantics, but romantics nonetheless, out to prove their worthiness as men.
This brings me back to an old argument of mine on these boards, the rite of passage. We have none, not one that gives a person a sense of self-worth and confidence in their abilities. Not everyone survives their rite of passage. That's part of its worth, cull the weak. They are usually dangerous and are in the nature of a final exam of your fitness for living. Denying that creates bored, unsatisfied, seeking individuals who find excitement and discover their own inner strengths through terrorism.
I think terrorists are a serious threat to civilized life, but is it because we've taken the death out of life? Have we made life too easy, thereby squeezing all the essence out of it?
I'll bet the Sarge could give a few answers about why his guys soldier and given their druthers, how they prefer doing their soldiering. My guess is, sitting behind a desk ain't it. There's something very bracing and down to earth as well as sublimely terrifying in that instantaneous "pop" as an aerodynamically shaped hunk of metal passes near one's head at supersonic speeds. I know, I've heard it. One never feels more alive than when death is inches away.
Are terrorists simply looking for a way to prove themselves in the eyes of those they respect? Those who would rather die, shouting their need through their bombs, than endure an empty, ultimately meaningless, life. Are they grasping that edge that led Meursault to make a sound in the void, even at the expense of his life?
When you think about it, we live a life unlike any other ever lived in the fifty or so thousand years of Homo Sapiens. The closest many of us come to danger is a good seat at the movies. Or when we get in our cars. Humans are made to exist and overcome in a dangerous world. We thrive on excitement, the adrenaline rush. We have essentially taken all the danger out of life. This leaves some people feeling very unfulfilled. How does a cog in a wheel make a difference? How can you establish who you are as a man if you are stuck in a tall glass building with a computer screen in your face all day? I'll bet OBL, if he is still alive is reveling in his manly ruggedness. In his humanity. OBL and the other terrorists are nothing more than romantics, albeit particularly dangerous romantics, but romantics nonetheless, out to prove their worthiness as men.
This brings me back to an old argument of mine on these boards, the rite of passage. We have none, not one that gives a person a sense of self-worth and confidence in their abilities. Not everyone survives their rite of passage. That's part of its worth, cull the weak. They are usually dangerous and are in the nature of a final exam of your fitness for living. Denying that creates bored, unsatisfied, seeking individuals who find excitement and discover their own inner strengths through terrorism.
I think terrorists are a serious threat to civilized life, but is it because we've taken the death out of life? Have we made life too easy, thereby squeezing all the essence out of it?
I'll bet the Sarge could give a few answers about why his guys soldier and given their druthers, how they prefer doing their soldiering. My guess is, sitting behind a desk ain't it. There's something very bracing and down to earth as well as sublimely terrifying in that instantaneous "pop" as an aerodynamically shaped hunk of metal passes near one's head at supersonic speeds. I know, I've heard it. One never feels more alive than when death is inches away.
Are terrorists simply looking for a way to prove themselves in the eyes of those they respect? Those who would rather die, shouting their need through their bombs, than endure an empty, ultimately meaningless, life. Are they grasping that edge that led Meursault to make a sound in the void, even at the expense of his life?
15jjwilson61
12> OBL may very well die in his bed...from the blast of a 500lb bomb.
17timspalding
Yeah, he's been thought dead too many times before.
18OldSarge
Hmmm...
Sitting at a desk looking at spreadsheets versus launching yourself into the night sky from an airplane in flight?
Spending eight hours a day on an assembly line versus being in the commander's hatch of an armored vehicle?
Living in a nice safe house with an alarm system versus actually hunting down bad guys?
Punching that nine to five clock versus pushing yourself physically and mentally beyond what you thought you could do?
Spending years trying to get promoted versus being given responsibilities that most people will never see?
Being ignored at work versus shaping and influencing motivated people?
No comparison here. While there may be a similar rush, there is a world of difference between my guys and terrorists. We don't splash acid in the face of a young girl for daring to go to school.
Back in the nineties, I would laugh in the face of guys I knew who did the whole "Iron John" thing. I find all the dress up and pretend you're a warrior crap like SCA and paintball sad.
Why? Because it's fake violence. Something I find so ridiculous and contemptable. Controlled violence is what I have engaged in all my adult life. The results ain't pretty but necessary.
Sitting at a desk looking at spreadsheets versus launching yourself into the night sky from an airplane in flight?
Spending eight hours a day on an assembly line versus being in the commander's hatch of an armored vehicle?
Living in a nice safe house with an alarm system versus actually hunting down bad guys?
Punching that nine to five clock versus pushing yourself physically and mentally beyond what you thought you could do?
Spending years trying to get promoted versus being given responsibilities that most people will never see?
Being ignored at work versus shaping and influencing motivated people?
No comparison here. While there may be a similar rush, there is a world of difference between my guys and terrorists. We don't splash acid in the face of a young girl for daring to go to school.
Back in the nineties, I would laugh in the face of guys I knew who did the whole "Iron John" thing. I find all the dress up and pretend you're a warrior crap like SCA and paintball sad.
Why? Because it's fake violence. Something I find so ridiculous and contemptable. Controlled violence is what I have engaged in all my adult life. The results ain't pretty but necessary.
19GirlFromIpanema
Geneg, #14: "One never feels more alive than when death is inches away."
Yes. (I haven't been shot at, but I have been in mortal danger, and that moment has been burnt into my memory).
Geneg: " I'll bet OBL, if he is still alive is reveling in his manly ruggedness. In his humanity. OBL and the other terrorists are nothing more than romantics, albeit particularly dangerous romantics, but romantics nonetheless, out to prove their worthiness as men."
Going back to the Middle-class/islamist thread: You could probably say that about most terrorist movements. I would definitely say that about the German RAF and other 1970s leftist terrorist groups.
Old Sarge, #18:"Sitting at a desk looking at spreadsheets versus launching yourself into the night sky from an airplane in flight?"
The experience I mentioned above involved a glider plane crashing near me and a few rescue parachutes (not me, I'd not be here in that case). The desk for me every time. :-) But it's good that there are people who are willing and able to jump out of planes without being forced.
Yes. (I haven't been shot at, but I have been in mortal danger, and that moment has been burnt into my memory).
Geneg: " I'll bet OBL, if he is still alive is reveling in his manly ruggedness. In his humanity. OBL and the other terrorists are nothing more than romantics, albeit particularly dangerous romantics, but romantics nonetheless, out to prove their worthiness as men."
Going back to the Middle-class/islamist thread: You could probably say that about most terrorist movements. I would definitely say that about the German RAF and other 1970s leftist terrorist groups.
Old Sarge, #18:"Sitting at a desk looking at spreadsheets versus launching yourself into the night sky from an airplane in flight?"
The experience I mentioned above involved a glider plane crashing near me and a few rescue parachutes (not me, I'd not be here in that case). The desk for me every time. :-) But it's good that there are people who are willing and able to jump out of planes without being forced.
20GirlFromIpanema
"I find all the dress up and pretend you're a warrior crap like SCA and paintball sad."
He, don't diss the SCA :-D. You know there are people who like to dress up even as grown-ups.
(says she, who has a Viking ladies' dress in her wardrobe, complete with knife and everything).
He, don't diss the SCA :-D. You know there are people who like to dress up even as grown-ups.
(says she, who has a Viking ladies' dress in her wardrobe, complete with knife and everything).
21OldSarge
I've been there when things fell out of the sky. Parachute failures on equipment, not people. Not fun.
23gonzobrarian
I have a feeling that he's left Pakistan, ferrying back and forth around the Horn of Africa and perhaps back into Sudan. It might be part of why Obama has so far been silent on Sudan.
24modalursine
Assuming the unlikely event of taking OBL alive, I don't see the theoretical problem of trying him for crimes and/or conspiracy to commit crimes.
Killing thousands of people is still considered criminal and depraved even by the most relaxed of contemporary standards.
Are people worried that there's not enough evidence to convict? Of course, if the evidence against him was obtained by torture, that's not so good, but there must be plenty of untainted evidence to use.
Are people afraid that the trial site will be subject to terrorist attack? Then we should never prosecute an international drug cartel or Mafia case. Do you think there are any significant number of his supporters here? If there are, they are keeping a low profile.
The most serious objection would seem to be that he has been convicted in advance, in the press and in public opinion, so that it would be next to impossible to find a disinterested jury.
A Kangaroo court would no one any good, which is why I'm suggesting a way to pack him off to some international forum, such as for Milosevic (sp?).
But if that were not feasible, why not try him like any other criminal?
Killing thousands of people is still considered criminal and depraved even by the most relaxed of contemporary standards.
Are people worried that there's not enough evidence to convict? Of course, if the evidence against him was obtained by torture, that's not so good, but there must be plenty of untainted evidence to use.
Are people afraid that the trial site will be subject to terrorist attack? Then we should never prosecute an international drug cartel or Mafia case. Do you think there are any significant number of his supporters here? If there are, they are keeping a low profile.
The most serious objection would seem to be that he has been convicted in advance, in the press and in public opinion, so that it would be next to impossible to find a disinterested jury.
A Kangaroo court would no one any good, which is why I'm suggesting a way to pack him off to some international forum, such as for Milosevic (sp?).
But if that were not feasible, why not try him like any other criminal?
25rolandperkins
"... why not try him like any other criminal?"
Maybe the Bush Administration could answer that question. They never were willing to try those terrorists that they did have, not even in a court martial where they are only going through the motions and a guilty verdict is almost certain.
On the other hand, they werenʻt willing to declare the suspects prisoners of war, either -- not if it meant considering them to be under the more or less agreed upon international rules for prisoners of war (Geneva Convention). Something like the old British policy for Northern Ireland, by which suspects could be held indefinitely without charges. But even Britain finally abandoned that policy.
Maybe the Bush Administration could answer that question. They never were willing to try those terrorists that they did have, not even in a court martial where they are only going through the motions and a guilty verdict is almost certain.
On the other hand, they werenʻt willing to declare the suspects prisoners of war, either -- not if it meant considering them to be under the more or less agreed upon international rules for prisoners of war (Geneva Convention). Something like the old British policy for Northern Ireland, by which suspects could be held indefinitely without charges. But even Britain finally abandoned that policy.
26Amtep
The US can't credibly hand anyone over to the International Criminal Court. Remember, they have declared their intent to attack and invade the Netherlands (a NATO ally!) in order to extract any Americans tried by the ICC. Having Osama bin Laden tried there would mean acknowledging the ICC's jurisdiction.
27timspalding
We promised to invade Holland? I don't think we ever did that, or at least not since 1944.
28bookishbunny
If Barack Obama captured Osama Bin Laden, newscasters everywhere would get their tongues tied. That is all the speculating I can handle. :)
29GirlFromIpanema
#27: Seems a creative interpretation of the ASPA (American Service Member Protection Act).
News link: http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-mep-wants-us-recognise-criminal-court , speech of Dutch minister Hardel: http://www.amicc.org/docs/EUonASPA7_3_02.pdf
Link to relevant section (3008) of the ASPA (last message, not original source): http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=36904
It's probably the same as with the alleged institution of a death penalty by the Lisbon Treaty: A misinterpretation of law speak.
News link: http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-mep-wants-us-recognise-criminal-court , speech of Dutch minister Hardel: http://www.amicc.org/docs/EUonASPA7_3_02.pdf
Link to relevant section (3008) of the ASPA (last message, not original source): http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=36904
It's probably the same as with the alleged institution of a death penalty by the Lisbon Treaty: A misinterpretation of law speak.
30geneg
It's not our soldiers who should worry about justice. It's Cheney and Bush and Gonzalez and Yoo and what other civilian leaders that dragged US into this mess (not the wars, these illegal detentions without charges and without Constitutional protections) that need to be worried about retribution for their uncivilized acts by a civilized world. It is only to our shame that we, the American people, don't stand up and demand these thugs be tried and convicted for conducting a criminal conspiracy resulting in at least three murders and God knows how much torture. Some of these assholes should be in jail for a long, long time.
If we do nothing about this, US will no longer have a moral leg to stand on. We will be the enemy of free men everywhere.
If we do nothing about this, US will no longer have a moral leg to stand on. We will be the enemy of free men everywhere.
31margd
>7 modalursine: But suppose you had the corpse alleged to be the deceased OBL. Do we have enough pre existing id...fingerprints, dental records, dna, whatever, to make a positive identification of the body?
OBL has many family members.
In excerpt of his book, one son describes OBL gathering his sons to give them an opportunity to enlist as suicide bombers. Brr! (Only one did--one of the younger ones.) http://www.theweek.com/article/index/102812/The_last_word_Growing_up_bin_Laden
OBL has many family members.
In excerpt of his book, one son describes OBL gathering his sons to give them an opportunity to enlist as suicide bombers. Brr! (Only one did--one of the younger ones.) http://www.theweek.com/article/index/102812/The_last_word_Growing_up_bin_Laden
32Doug1943
A question: suppose we found out where OBL was hiding -- the exact GPS co ordinates, which happened to be a particular house, isolated by fifty yards or so from other houses but in a fairly well-populated area -- populated by tribesmen sympathetic to his cause. And surveillance showed he was there, plus a couple of dozen heavily-armed body-guards. (Not to mention the hundreds of armed tribesmen within a half mile or so.) And we can assume OBL and his people have plans for escape if their location is rumbled and they have warning of it.
What should we do?
As a vicious conservative, I would say it was time for a JDAM or other laser-guided munition, with no warning. As happened to that horrible Al Queda leader in Iraq.
But I suppose some people would want to try to arrest him, treating him exactly like we did, say, the Unabomber?
That seems to fail the common sense test.
What should we do?
As a vicious conservative, I would say it was time for a JDAM or other laser-guided munition, with no warning. As happened to that horrible Al Queda leader in Iraq.
But I suppose some people would want to try to arrest him, treating him exactly like we did, say, the Unabomber?
That seems to fail the common sense test.
34GirlFromIpanema
"What should we do?"
There's a genius idea in comment #2 on this article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/dec/17/iphone-apple
"--War? There's an iPhone app for that--
American military contractor shows off iPhone application intended to help soldiers track and kill insurgents on the battlefield"
There's a genius idea in comment #2 on this article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/dec/17/iphone-apple
"--War? There's an iPhone app for that--
American military contractor shows off iPhone application intended to help soldiers track and kill insurgents on the battlefield"
35timspalding
>32 Doug1943:
I say the missile. The important thing is getting him. How is irrelevant, so you go with certainty. I'd want to know, however, whether Al Qaeda would admit he's dead, if there wasn't evidence. An OBL-as-Elvis situation wouldn't be good.
I say the missile. The important thing is getting him. How is irrelevant, so you go with certainty. I'd want to know, however, whether Al Qaeda would admit he's dead, if there wasn't evidence. An OBL-as-Elvis situation wouldn't be good.
36Essa
Assuming bin Laden is still alive, and I'm not convinced he is, then I hope he does not meet his death by public, violent means. That's what he wants. And such a death might have a martyr-effect among his followers.
I say to h*ll with that. Let him rot in an anonymous damp cave somewhere, unremarked and unknown, with an unmarked grave, his mission(s) come to naught, no attention, no fanfare, and no glory.
I say to h*ll with that. Let him rot in an anonymous damp cave somewhere, unremarked and unknown, with an unmarked grave, his mission(s) come to naught, no attention, no fanfare, and no glory.
37timspalding
I suspect he'd prefer five years of speechifying at the Hague, followed by a warm cell, conjugal visits and ice cream on Tuesdays.
38HomeschoolLibrarian
Not an answer to the original question, but I hope OBL goes down (did go down) by some un-noble means of "friendly fire" amidst practice shootings.
39GirlFromIpanema
#33, and #38:
I don't entertain such toughts. I don't want to stoop down to that level. That's the basic question, isn't it? We think he's wrong in what he thinks and what he does (or his minions do for him). Should we do the same?
#35: Bin Laden as Elvis? Bin Laden as Hitler more like. And there you have the problem: Hitler's body was burnt and buried in a bomb crater in Berlin. Only in 1990 or thereabouts, the Soviets admitted they had removed the remains in May 1945, buried them on a Soviet military compound in East Germany and brought them to Moscow later on. 50 years of conspiracy theories (and most people still don't know that the remains still exist).
I don't entertain such toughts. I don't want to stoop down to that level. That's the basic question, isn't it? We think he's wrong in what he thinks and what he does (or his minions do for him). Should we do the same?
#35: Bin Laden as Elvis? Bin Laden as Hitler more like. And there you have the problem: Hitler's body was burnt and buried in a bomb crater in Berlin. Only in 1990 or thereabouts, the Soviets admitted they had removed the remains in May 1945, buried them on a Soviet military compound in East Germany and brought them to Moscow later on. 50 years of conspiracy theories (and most people still don't know that the remains still exist).
40Essa
Speaking of bin Laden ... a book came through at work recently that I thought looked quite interesting. Growing Up bin Laden is a memoir by bin Laden's first wife and one of his sons (who have, according to the blurb, severed all ties with bin Laden, both by their own choice and by his). Might make for interesting (if perhaps somewhat depressing) reading.
(GirlFromIpanema, I found a touchstone that works! Hurrah! :D )
(GirlFromIpanema, I found a touchstone that works! Hurrah! :D )
41Doug1943
If the crime-not-war approach is taken, he must be given a chance to give himself up. His house must be surrounded by agents of the legal authority -- which, if he is in Pakistan, means we will have to ask the Pakistani government to arrest him and then extradite him -- and if he is taken alive, read his Miranda rights, etc. No unwarranted force must be used. And talk about "a conviction is guaranteed" etc, such as I have heard for the defendants who will be tried in New York, is probably out of order also, although someone more versed in the law than I am can comment on that.
42geneg
Are you suggesting, Doug, the rule of law is only effective up to a point and beyond that we must descend again into the jungle? Is that where this is heading? Sometimes it's necessary to be barbarous? It's better to murder him in cold blood than to defend our society with the law? Just so we can feel good about ourselves and how tough we are?
43Doug1943
I am suggesting that the rule of law is a human invention, like the state itself, or the various methods of choosing the people who run the state (like political democracy), which has evolved in human societies because a sufficient number of people (or, more precisely, people with sufficient power) found that the inconveniences of each of these institutions/arrangements were outweighed by their utility in effecting the ends these people-with-power sought to achieve. (Sorry for the horrible sentence.)
Underpinning the rule of law is human reason, including common sense.
This tells us the obvious fact that the laws don't apply to all situations. They break down in war, for instance, when the very existence of the state (without which there is no rule of law) is threatened. We have some very feeble "laws" -- conventions -- which are supposed to govern the conduct of states in war, and that's it.
Bin Laden is not subject to the rule of law, because the rule of law implies the rule of an effective state. If Pakistan were an effective and civilized state, whose writ ran everywhere within its borders, then in the (not unrealistic) scenario I have described, we could tell the Pakistani authorities where Bin Laden was hiding, and they would arrest and try him themselves or extradite him to us.
But Pakistan is not an effective and civilized state. Its writ does not run to where Bin Laden may be, its state apparatus is honeycombed with Islamists and those who seek to use them in their mad nationalist conflict with the Hindus, and is corrupt to the bone. So any polite request to go arrest the man at such-and-so address would be ludicrous.
Thus the common sense response -- which, I hope, transcends the liberal/conservative divide -- is the laser-guided no-warning bomb. Bin Laden would get the rule of the laws of gravity, chemistry, and kinetic energy, because he has literally put himself outside of the rule of human law.
Off the topic a bit: I have noticed a tendency for this forum to attract people who are otherwise well-meaning and sensible, and who often have good points to make, and then push them to take the most extreme expression of their beliefs possible. This seems to occur on both sides of political barricades. I suppose this is because we are not a deliberative body that has to make practical decisions with real consequences, and are thus pushed towards compromises and consideration of all points of view, but an arena where the nature of the contact among us -- ideological combat -- tends to push us apart and towards ideological purity.
Underpinning the rule of law is human reason, including common sense.
This tells us the obvious fact that the laws don't apply to all situations. They break down in war, for instance, when the very existence of the state (without which there is no rule of law) is threatened. We have some very feeble "laws" -- conventions -- which are supposed to govern the conduct of states in war, and that's it.
Bin Laden is not subject to the rule of law, because the rule of law implies the rule of an effective state. If Pakistan were an effective and civilized state, whose writ ran everywhere within its borders, then in the (not unrealistic) scenario I have described, we could tell the Pakistani authorities where Bin Laden was hiding, and they would arrest and try him themselves or extradite him to us.
But Pakistan is not an effective and civilized state. Its writ does not run to where Bin Laden may be, its state apparatus is honeycombed with Islamists and those who seek to use them in their mad nationalist conflict with the Hindus, and is corrupt to the bone. So any polite request to go arrest the man at such-and-so address would be ludicrous.
Thus the common sense response -- which, I hope, transcends the liberal/conservative divide -- is the laser-guided no-warning bomb. Bin Laden would get the rule of the laws of gravity, chemistry, and kinetic energy, because he has literally put himself outside of the rule of human law.
Off the topic a bit: I have noticed a tendency for this forum to attract people who are otherwise well-meaning and sensible, and who often have good points to make, and then push them to take the most extreme expression of their beliefs possible. This seems to occur on both sides of political barricades. I suppose this is because we are not a deliberative body that has to make practical decisions with real consequences, and are thus pushed towards compromises and consideration of all points of view, but an arena where the nature of the contact among us -- ideological combat -- tends to push us apart and towards ideological purity.
44OldSarge
#36. Exactly. That would be the perfect outcome.
If we did somehow capture this skell alive? Very few here might agree to my solution. No, it doesn't involve waterboarding or anything like that. It would be exactly the same as Essa's solution, except very, very few people would know about it. He would become a mystery like D.B. Cooper.
If we did somehow capture this skell alive? Very few here might agree to my solution. No, it doesn't involve waterboarding or anything like that. It would be exactly the same as Essa's solution, except very, very few people would know about it. He would become a mystery like D.B. Cooper.
45Doug1943
There are things which are said, and not done.
There are things which are done, and not said.
There are things which are done, and not said.
46GirlFromIpanema
I am going to be the contrarian again. It might give us personally a good feeling to stuff OBL into a dark, dank place, lock up and throw away the key, but it won't work. Try hiding a person for 30 years or more.
A provocation:
Did you (the Allied Nations) shoot the Nazi top dogs at point blank? If not, why not? And why didn't they all end up at the gallows?
A provocation:
Did you (the Allied Nations) shoot the Nazi top dogs at point blank? If not, why not? And why didn't they all end up at the gallows?
47Doug1943
We did shoot the Nazis at point blank, drop bombs on them (and, sadly, on a lot of innocent people too), so long as they waged war on us. When they surrendered, not. So the analogy would be: what if OBL walked into a NATO outpost in Afghanistan and surrendered?
The post-war trials of German war leaders were of course a travesty of justice.
The post-war trials of German war leaders were of course a travesty of justice.
48rolandperkins
". . .why didn't they all end up at the gallows?"
(#46)
Mostly they did, as I remember it. (I was born in 1931.) I've read that Finance Minister Hjalmar Schacht was the only hig-ranking Nazi who was acquitted. As for Hitler, they didnt have him in custody, and as for Goering, he managed to commit suicide, (as did Himmler, I think.)
(#46)
Mostly they did, as I remember it. (I was born in 1931.) I've read that Finance Minister Hjalmar Schacht was the only hig-ranking Nazi who was acquitted. As for Hitler, they didnt have him in custody, and as for Goering, he managed to commit suicide, (as did Himmler, I think.)
