and I thought I knew about the Holocaust!
Talk Holocaust Experiences
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1peterbrown First Message
I've just finished reading Rudolf Vrba's I escaped from Auschwitz (2006), which was first published in 1964 as: I cannot forgive. The new edition updates the story and includes the text of 'The Auschwitz Protocols'. Vrba died in March of this year. This book is important because it was Vrba and his fellow escapee Alfred Wetzler who alerted the Allies to the Reich's policy of mass extermination of the Jews and other minorities. The additional material explores why the information was suppressed by Hungarian Jewish leaders - this debate is contentious as is explained. Vrba is particularly good on explaining the economic reasons for the Holocaust, in that it provided an essential redistribution of wealth to oil the German war machine and keep keep German citizens supplied with goods and property and commerce. An engrossing read.
Just published in the Picador Shots series of short stories at £1.00 each is Shalom Auslander's Holocaust tips for kids. It is only 23pp. but its use of history and current media icons viewed with childlike naivety in preparing for a possible resurgence of a Holocaust, see also Philip Roth, The plot against America? is sobering, particularly when I consider that the Nazis slaughtered 1.5 million children under the age of 16.
Just published in the Picador Shots series of short stories at £1.00 each is Shalom Auslander's Holocaust tips for kids. It is only 23pp. but its use of history and current media icons viewed with childlike naivety in preparing for a possible resurgence of a Holocaust, see also Philip Roth, The plot against America? is sobering, particularly when I consider that the Nazis slaughtered 1.5 million children under the age of 16.
3GirlFromIpanema
peterbrown, your description of Vrba's book brought back to my mind that I wanted to order a book by Götz Aly, Hitlers Volksstaat. The book hasn't yet been translated into English (but probably will be). Aly is a political scientist, who explores the same newer historiographic idea that the crimes of the Nazi regime cannot be seen separately from political actions that had most Germans profiting. Bombed-out families got furniture from Jewish households, no war-taxes for the Germans, and the German army took whatever they could get from the countries they passed through.
Ok, *sigh* one more for the pile to be read...
Ok, *sigh* one more for the pile to be read...
4gavroche
French Children of the Holocaust: A Memorial is a powerful resource, probably best for a school or community library. Though it does provide historical information, it's most powerful aspect is a collection of hundreds of photographs of French children prior to their being transported to the death camps, along with brief bios. Few could probably 'read' through them. Few would want to. But it puts faces to the victims.
5BookAddict
I have read many holocaust books but one that's a little different is
Hitler's Black Victims: The Historical Experience of Afro-Germans, European Blacks, Africans and African Americans in the Nazi Era by Clarence Lusane (2002)
I haven't read it yet but it's one of the very few that have been written about the persecution of this racial group. I'll post my review after I read it.
Hitler's Black Victims: The Historical Experience of Afro-Germans, European Blacks, Africans and African Americans in the Nazi Era by Clarence Lusane (2002)
I haven't read it yet but it's one of the very few that have been written about the persecution of this racial group. I'll post my review after I read it.
6peterbrown
It is very useful to have so many books that I was unaware of posted in this discussion. I'll not be reading them all at once, finding one or two a year about as much as I can take emotionally.
That said I though I'd just throw a couple of others into the discussion. Earlier this year I read Irene Nemirovsky's Suite Francaise; a novel that the author's daughters carried around unopened in a suitcase for almost half a century thinking it was a diary. In a way it was as Nemirovsky minutely records France's gradual capitulation to the German invasion and self interest - but the tragedy is in the way that the author becomes the victim - as the biographical coda details her husband's desperate search for her when she has already been shipped to the camps and murdered.
The other domestic rendition is Victor Klemperer's three volume diary. Klemperer, although Jewish, was married to a Gentile, which allowed him a small degree of special treatment. The gradual reduction in his living standards and the tightening of the political knot make this one of the great diaries of the Twentieth Century. The first two volumes covering 1933 - 1941 & 1942 - 1945 are I shall bear witness and To the bitter end.
Incidentally it was Klemperer who brought to my attention the White Rose student movement who bravely opposed the Reich. This has been made into two films the latest of which has released on DVD this year 'Sophie Scholl'. I was deeply moved by this film.
That said I though I'd just throw a couple of others into the discussion. Earlier this year I read Irene Nemirovsky's Suite Francaise; a novel that the author's daughters carried around unopened in a suitcase for almost half a century thinking it was a diary. In a way it was as Nemirovsky minutely records France's gradual capitulation to the German invasion and self interest - but the tragedy is in the way that the author becomes the victim - as the biographical coda details her husband's desperate search for her when she has already been shipped to the camps and murdered.
The other domestic rendition is Victor Klemperer's three volume diary. Klemperer, although Jewish, was married to a Gentile, which allowed him a small degree of special treatment. The gradual reduction in his living standards and the tightening of the political knot make this one of the great diaries of the Twentieth Century. The first two volumes covering 1933 - 1941 & 1942 - 1945 are I shall bear witness and To the bitter end.
Incidentally it was Klemperer who brought to my attention the White Rose student movement who bravely opposed the Reich. This has been made into two films the latest of which has released on DVD this year 'Sophie Scholl'. I was deeply moved by this film.
7GirlFromIpanema
Bookaddict, have you read Hans J. Massaquoi's Destined to witness. Growing up black in Nazi Germany.?
Massaquoi was born in 1928 to a German mother and a Liberian father (son of the Liberian consul at that time). The parents separated in the early 1930s and he and his mother stayed in Germany. Even though he was highly visible as being "different" due to his skin colour, he survived the dictatorship. He partly attributes this to the fact, that the Nazi government had termed blacks as being "unworthy" but had not yet a fixed plan on how to deal with them. Beside his biography, I only know about the biographical sketch of two daughters of a Cameroonian trader, who were born around 1915 and survived the Nazi Era (in Katharina Oguntoye's anthology Farbe bekennen, a book on the history of black Germans).
Massaquoi was born in 1928 to a German mother and a Liberian father (son of the Liberian consul at that time). The parents separated in the early 1930s and he and his mother stayed in Germany. Even though he was highly visible as being "different" due to his skin colour, he survived the dictatorship. He partly attributes this to the fact, that the Nazi government had termed blacks as being "unworthy" but had not yet a fixed plan on how to deal with them. Beside his biography, I only know about the biographical sketch of two daughters of a Cameroonian trader, who were born around 1915 and survived the Nazi Era (in Katharina Oguntoye's anthology Farbe bekennen, a book on the history of black Germans).
8BookAddict
GirlFromIpanema
I had not heard of the books you mentioned. I haven't read anything about this yet as until now I could find nothing on the subject. It will be interestng to see what comes of reading this book. The author was supposed to have compiled everything available on the subject, we will see. I may have to purchase Hans J. Massaquoi's book to read in addition to the one I already have. Thanks for mentioning it. There is so little on the subject.
If anyone else has any more titles on this I would like to know about them also. Thanks for your help :)
I had not heard of the books you mentioned. I haven't read anything about this yet as until now I could find nothing on the subject. It will be interestng to see what comes of reading this book. The author was supposed to have compiled everything available on the subject, we will see. I may have to purchase Hans J. Massaquoi's book to read in addition to the one I already have. Thanks for mentioning it. There is so little on the subject.
If anyone else has any more titles on this I would like to know about them also. Thanks for your help :)
9GirlFromIpanema
We are playing the balls off each other nicely here! I am going to take peterbrown's pass here, and throw in another book by Victor Klemperer: The language of the Third Reich : LTI, Lingua Tertii Imperii : a philologist's notebook. I only bought it a short time ago, and haven't read it yet. Klemperer collected words and sentences from Nazi newspapers and daily usage in Germany and compiled a "Wörterbuch des Unmenschen" (dictionary of the barbarians?).
10ExVivre
Can anyone recommend good works on pre-Holocaust Jewish/Yiddish society and culture in Europe? I read Aaron Lansky's Outwitting History and it opened my eyes to the fact that the Holocaust not only destroyed countless lives but also destroyed a unique language and culture. If available, I'd prefer something broad-ranging and multi-national that covers multiple facets of this culture, not just a particular city or shtetl.
Thanks!
Thanks!
11kieren_valente
peterbrown thanks for telling us a little more about Irene Nemirovsky's Suite Francaise. I was aware only of its existence, not at all of the history behind the book or even what the book itself was about. I just finished reading it this morning and it was a very moving experience.
One book I would recommend, not just on its own merits which I think are many and relevant, but because it seems to fit in this group is Paul Celan: Poet, Survivor, Jew.
ExVivre I didn't really research this except in my own collection, but the Cultural Atlas of the Jewish World which is more of a history book (albeit profusely illustrated with maps, illustrations and photographs) has many chapters relevants to pre-Holocaust Jewish Ashkenazi history from its very beginnings, through a series of pogroms to its cultural apogee just before the Nazis took power. There are also many special segments on liturgy, language (Yiddish and Hebrew in particular, of course) and a geographical overview of how this vast population was distributed in Eastern Europe (from its confinement to Russia's Pale of Settlement to eventually cover the entire area east of Germany and deep into the then USSR). Hope it helps a little unless you already have the book. It was originally published by Phaeton in association with Oxford University Press, later Phaeton was acquired by Time-Life and the book is out of print but can still be found easily enough, even at Amazon.
One book I would recommend, not just on its own merits which I think are many and relevant, but because it seems to fit in this group is Paul Celan: Poet, Survivor, Jew.
ExVivre I didn't really research this except in my own collection, but the Cultural Atlas of the Jewish World which is more of a history book (albeit profusely illustrated with maps, illustrations and photographs) has many chapters relevants to pre-Holocaust Jewish Ashkenazi history from its very beginnings, through a series of pogroms to its cultural apogee just before the Nazis took power. There are also many special segments on liturgy, language (Yiddish and Hebrew in particular, of course) and a geographical overview of how this vast population was distributed in Eastern Europe (from its confinement to Russia's Pale of Settlement to eventually cover the entire area east of Germany and deep into the then USSR). Hope it helps a little unless you already have the book. It was originally published by Phaeton in association with Oxford University Press, later Phaeton was acquired by Time-Life and the book is out of print but can still be found easily enough, even at Amazon.
12nerissarain First Message
I'm glad I started this thing, of course, it's going to be pretty dangerous for my wallet. I'll have to check out some of the books that you guys have all mentioned. It's reassuring to see that there are still many books appearing that look at different aspects of the Holocaust... Does anyone have suggestions of books that look specificaly at the experience of children during the Holocaust? This is seeming to end up being my area of especial interest (and study).
13peterbrown
nerrisarain, apart from a couple books on children during the Holocaust mentioned in the above discussion you may also find it worth looking at Hans-Georg Behr, Almost a Childhood: Growing up among the Nazis, (Granta, 2006) reviewed in the Guardian at the weekend:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1842463,00.html
I have not read the book. It strikes me that one of the problems that you will have is that nearly all the children who were sent to the camps were murdered, so a lot of your material will come from indirect sources. I can, though, recommend Thomas Bernhard's autobiography: Gathering evidence. Bernhard grew up in Austria and witnessed first hand the selection of children who were either chronically ill or had learning difficulties being selected for murder - he was nearly a victim himself. If you have not seen Roman Polanski's 'The Piano Player' then do, it is harrowing and based on his experiences as a child in the Warsaw ghetto. Also the moving personal testimonies of children and parents trying to get their children out of Nazi Germany is brilliantly documented in the film: 'Into the arms of strangers: stories of the kindertransport':
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0248912/
Oh and don't forget that wonderful piece of music by Steve Reich, 'Different Trains' - just read the cover notes!
I'm at a loss to give a response to ExVivre's request for 'good works on pre-Holocaust Jewish/Yiddish society and culture in Europe'. The only suggestion I can come up with is Marcel Reich-Ranicki, The author of himself: The life of Marcel Reich-Ranicki. Again I have yet to read this, but the first section deals with his Jewish Childhood in the 1920s in the Polish town of Wloclawek. Your request reminds me that so much of my experience, I live in London, UK, of Central European Judaism is refracted by American novels - I'm thinking of Saul Bellow, Isaac Bashevis-Singer and also Chaim Potok. Potok in particular gives one such a feeling of old Europe in his novels 'The Chosen' and 'The Gift' but this must be largely an illusion on my part because he is writing about Hasidic communities in Brooklyn.
I'd also be very interested in any other suggestions that people can come up with for ExVivre's request. A lot of material must exist - but how much has been translated?
http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1842463,00.html
I have not read the book. It strikes me that one of the problems that you will have is that nearly all the children who were sent to the camps were murdered, so a lot of your material will come from indirect sources. I can, though, recommend Thomas Bernhard's autobiography: Gathering evidence. Bernhard grew up in Austria and witnessed first hand the selection of children who were either chronically ill or had learning difficulties being selected for murder - he was nearly a victim himself. If you have not seen Roman Polanski's 'The Piano Player' then do, it is harrowing and based on his experiences as a child in the Warsaw ghetto. Also the moving personal testimonies of children and parents trying to get their children out of Nazi Germany is brilliantly documented in the film: 'Into the arms of strangers: stories of the kindertransport':
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0248912/
Oh and don't forget that wonderful piece of music by Steve Reich, 'Different Trains' - just read the cover notes!
I'm at a loss to give a response to ExVivre's request for 'good works on pre-Holocaust Jewish/Yiddish society and culture in Europe'. The only suggestion I can come up with is Marcel Reich-Ranicki, The author of himself: The life of Marcel Reich-Ranicki. Again I have yet to read this, but the first section deals with his Jewish Childhood in the 1920s in the Polish town of Wloclawek. Your request reminds me that so much of my experience, I live in London, UK, of Central European Judaism is refracted by American novels - I'm thinking of Saul Bellow, Isaac Bashevis-Singer and also Chaim Potok. Potok in particular gives one such a feeling of old Europe in his novels 'The Chosen' and 'The Gift' but this must be largely an illusion on my part because he is writing about Hasidic communities in Brooklyn.
I'd also be very interested in any other suggestions that people can come up with for ExVivre's request. A lot of material must exist - but how much has been translated?
14kieren_valente
nerissarain, it probably isn't the sort of book you're looking for but I found it immensely helpful in sharing with my younger relatives the terrible plight of children within the context of a horrific event: Through Our Eyes - Children witness The Holocaust by Itzhak Tatelbaum.
It was originally published in Chicago(and after 1985 in Jerusalem), and was used for a time in Israel as textbook (perhaps not the best description) to help not only the young but people of all ages become aware of this then somewhat neglected branch of Holocaust Studies.
It was originally published in Chicago(and after 1985 in Jerusalem), and was used for a time in Israel as textbook (perhaps not the best description) to help not only the young but people of all ages become aware of this then somewhat neglected branch of Holocaust Studies.
15GirlFromIpanema
peterbrown said:Your request reminds me that so much of my experience, I live in London, UK, of Central European Judaism is refracted by American novels
There sure is material in other languages than english, but it is probably rarely translated (the translations usually go en > de or en > fr, just because the english market is so much bigger).
There is the autobiography of Glueckel Hameln (Glückel von Hameln), a woman from Hamburg, who wrote her memoirs starting in 1691, a very interesting story of one ordinary woman (owning her own trade, being a wife and mother of 14, experiencing war and the hysteria around Shabbetai Zwi). I read it long ago, and it is a fascinating book, also because it happened just around the corner from where I lived :-). Must track it down...
I also own a novel by Valentin Senger, Die Buchsweilers telling the story of a Jewish countryside family in the beginning of the 1800s that becomes impoverished and where the father finally ends up as a member of a Jewish robber gang. Southern Germany had a high number of Jews that lived around the countryside, as traders, but later also as farmers. This book is not available in English, though.
There sure is material in other languages than english, but it is probably rarely translated (the translations usually go en > de or en > fr, just because the english market is so much bigger).
There is the autobiography of Glueckel Hameln (Glückel von Hameln), a woman from Hamburg, who wrote her memoirs starting in 1691, a very interesting story of one ordinary woman (owning her own trade, being a wife and mother of 14, experiencing war and the hysteria around Shabbetai Zwi). I read it long ago, and it is a fascinating book, also because it happened just around the corner from where I lived :-). Must track it down...
I also own a novel by Valentin Senger, Die Buchsweilers telling the story of a Jewish countryside family in the beginning of the 1800s that becomes impoverished and where the father finally ends up as a member of a Jewish robber gang. Southern Germany had a high number of Jews that lived around the countryside, as traders, but later also as farmers. This book is not available in English, though.
16peterbrown
Kieren Valente, I read Paul Celan: Poet, Survivor, Jew a few years ago - alas I no longer own it. I was fascinated by the meeting that took place between Martin Heidegger and Paul Celan at Heidegger's mountain hut retreat at Todtnauberg on July 25, 1967, and later commemorated in a poem by Celan. This meeting is a defining moment in the chronology of Postwar European history. So much could have been expected from it - but Heidegger remained unapologetic as Celan wrote in the poem 'Todtnauberg':
'a hope, today
of a thinker's
coming
word
in the heart'
This meeting manifests a lacuna between a generation's guilt and their post-war responsibility - a responsibility that in the majority of cases was just not met, a wound still open with ramifications for us all today.
It is also so strange that Heidegger had affairs with two Jewish women Hannah Arendt (who coined the phrase 'the banality of evil' in response to the Eichmann trial was it?) and Elizabeth Blochmann. This heady mix was recently turned into a Radlio play by John Banville on the BBC's Radio 4 - but with disappointing results. This has now been published in a limited edition: http://marksarvas.blogs.com/elegvar/2008/07/conversation-in.html
'a hope, today
of a thinker's
coming
word
in the heart'
This meeting manifests a lacuna between a generation's guilt and their post-war responsibility - a responsibility that in the majority of cases was just not met, a wound still open with ramifications for us all today.
It is also so strange that Heidegger had affairs with two Jewish women Hannah Arendt (who coined the phrase 'the banality of evil' in response to the Eichmann trial was it?) and Elizabeth Blochmann. This heady mix was recently turned into a Radlio play by John Banville on the BBC's Radio 4 - but with disappointing results. This has now been published in a limited edition: http://marksarvas.blogs.com/elegvar/2008/07/conversation-in.html
17nerissarain
Peterbrown - thanks for the suggestions. I've actually been pretty impressed with the amount of information, as far as firsthand stories, about children that is out there. I did a part of my undergrad thesis on children's experiences during the holocaust and it was amazing to see how many did manage to survive (through hiding, one way or another your right though, once they got to the camps, if they couldn't pull of looking old enough to work they weren't going to have a chance) I'll look into the books you suggested, I already have seen Kindertransport... and I think perhaps you are a little confused on the Polanski movie. (Unless I am). The movie I think your talking about is "the Pianist" which is based on the autobiography (of the same name) by Wladyslaw Szpilman. It's the closest thing to his experiences that Polanski has done, but the story itself deals with Szpilman's experience (and he was an adult at the time). An excellent movie though...
kieren_valente - I have a number of books similar to that one, but I don't think I have that one so I'll look into it. Another thing that I am interested in doing is working on how holocaust education is handled (don't get me started on the use of Anne Frank to teach the Holocaust in American schools...), so I think that book would be an excellent resource. Thank you.
kieren_valente - I have a number of books similar to that one, but I don't think I have that one so I'll look into it. Another thing that I am interested in doing is working on how holocaust education is handled (don't get me started on the use of Anne Frank to teach the Holocaust in American schools...), so I think that book would be an excellent resource. Thank you.
18GirlFromIpanema
nerissarain wrote: "...on how holocaust education is handled (don't get me started on the use of Anne Frank to teach the Holocaust in American schools...) "
I'd be interested in that. Of course Anne Frank plays an important role in teaching about the holocaust here in Germany, too (in History class in terms of teaching about emigration, persecution all over Europe, helpers and collaborators as well as in German class in terms of literary worth). How is she introduced in the USA? If that is possible to condense into a forum post ;-).
I'd be interested in that. Of course Anne Frank plays an important role in teaching about the holocaust here in Germany, too (in History class in terms of teaching about emigration, persecution all over Europe, helpers and collaborators as well as in German class in terms of literary worth). How is she introduced in the USA? If that is possible to condense into a forum post ;-).
19peterbrown
Thanks nerissarian - brain slip on film title - ignorance on source! Am following the Gunter Grass confession/responses in the press this week with interest. Peter.
20GirlFromIpanema
peterbrown, re: Günter Grass.
*argh*! What an idiot. (Sorry, had to say that). He used to be a moral authority in our country. Well, that is that. Probably wouldn't have worked as well if he had publicly confessed his SS-stint earlier...
*argh*! What an idiot. (Sorry, had to say that). He used to be a moral authority in our country. Well, that is that. Probably wouldn't have worked as well if he had publicly confessed his SS-stint earlier...
21nerissarain
GirlFromIpanema
In short.. my issues is that she is often used as the only source to teach the holocaust, yet her situation was SO unique and unusual... and there are tons of other works (diaries even) from others around that same age that faced more "typical" experiences. Sure, she'd be good to be used, but she shouldn't be used as the ONLY example/story.
In short.. my issues is that she is often used as the only source to teach the holocaust, yet her situation was SO unique and unusual... and there are tons of other works (diaries even) from others around that same age that faced more "typical" experiences. Sure, she'd be good to be used, but she shouldn't be used as the ONLY example/story.
22peterbrown
The New York Times currently has a discussion group on the Gunter Grass revelations at:
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/readersopinions/forums/books/booknewsandre...
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/readersopinions/forums/books/booknewsandre...
23peterbrown
ExVivre, Message 10, just published you could try Yuri Slezkine's The Jewish Century. You can get a description + the first chapter at:
http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/7819.html
Also worth a look would be Lion Feuchtwanger's 1934 novel The Oppermanns. The cover blurb reads: '...the compelling story of a remarkable German Jewish family confronted by the rise to power of Hitler'. My mum says it's a good read and has just passed it on to me.
http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/7819.html
Also worth a look would be Lion Feuchtwanger's 1934 novel The Oppermanns. The cover blurb reads: '...the compelling story of a remarkable German Jewish family confronted by the rise to power of Hitler'. My mum says it's a good read and has just passed it on to me.
25nickhoonaloon
Here`s a suggestion of my own - you might like to have a look at www.holocaustcentre.net which, handily enough, includes a bookshop !
Happy book hunting !
Happy book hunting !
26peterbrown
Many many thanks - I had no idea that this Holocaust Centre was here in the UK!
27almigwin
I'd like to recommend some books and films that I have found enlightening, moving and important.
Memoirs/Testimony:
Night by Elie Wiesel
An Interrupted Life by Etty Hillesum
Sala's Gift by Anne Kirschner
The Lost A Search for Six of the Six Million by Daniel Mendelsohn
History/Documentary:
The War Against the Jews by Lucy Davidowicz
Shoah by Claude Lanzmann (Also a Film)
Films:
Escape from Sobibor , Based on true story
Europa, Europa, Based on True story. in German
Judgement at Nurenberg
The Last Metro , in French
The Blood of Others, in French
Fiction:
Schindler's List by Thomas Keneally, also a film ,based on a true story
The Painted Bird by Jerzy Kozinski, Novel
The Journey by Ida Fink , Novel
Traces by Ida Fink, short stories
A Scrap of Time by Ida Fink , Short Stories
Babi Yar by Kuznetsov, , Semi-documentary novel
Generatons of Winter by Vasily Aksyonov , Novel
the Garden of the Finzi-Continis by Giorgio Bassani , Novel and also a film
Poetry:
Oh the Chimmneys by Nelly Sachs, won Nobel Prize
Poems by Paul Celan
Complete Poems by Czeslaw Milosz, Won Nobel Prize
Memoirs/Testimony:
Night by Elie Wiesel
An Interrupted Life by Etty Hillesum
Sala's Gift by Anne Kirschner
The Lost A Search for Six of the Six Million by Daniel Mendelsohn
History/Documentary:
The War Against the Jews by Lucy Davidowicz
Shoah by Claude Lanzmann (Also a Film)
Films:
Escape from Sobibor , Based on true story
Europa, Europa, Based on True story. in German
Judgement at Nurenberg
The Last Metro , in French
The Blood of Others, in French
Fiction:
Schindler's List by Thomas Keneally, also a film ,based on a true story
The Painted Bird by Jerzy Kozinski, Novel
The Journey by Ida Fink , Novel
Traces by Ida Fink, short stories
A Scrap of Time by Ida Fink , Short Stories
Babi Yar by Kuznetsov, , Semi-documentary novel
Generatons of Winter by Vasily Aksyonov , Novel
the Garden of the Finzi-Continis by Giorgio Bassani , Novel and also a film
Poetry:
Oh the Chimmneys by Nelly Sachs, won Nobel Prize
Poems by Paul Celan
Complete Poems by Czeslaw Milosz, Won Nobel Prize
28almigwin
#27, cont'd.
I left out the most important memoirist, for me, who is Primo Levi:
the Periodic Table (and all his other books)
I left out the most important memoirist, for me, who is Primo Levi:
the Periodic Table (and all his other books)
29piscatores First Message
Most of the books mentioned in all these lists are from recent date. For me, I find no book as moving and intersting as those written days after coming home or even liberation. Written from the hart, with anger and emotions. Not always based on facts, lacking the knowledge we have today, but still a true history
30zwelbast
@almigwin
True, I think Se questo è un uomo 1947 ( US: Survival in Auschwitz 1958 ) from Primo Levi is the best (not recent) survivor memoir.
True, I think Se questo è un uomo 1947 ( US: Survival in Auschwitz 1958 ) from Primo Levi is the best (not recent) survivor memoir.
31EncompassedRunner
I see 3 LT users have I Was a Doctor in Auschwitz the autobiography by Gisella Perl, and would like to read it but for the $179 lowest price on Amazon for a used copy. There is a docudrama available of her account that I recommend: "Out of the Ashes," which I found in the Drama section of the local Blockbusters. The late Dr. Perl, survived Aushwitz then came to the USA and in order to get her licence to pratice medicine here had to respond to an INS panel questioning her ethics--because in Aushwitz she assisted Dr. Mengele and sometimes knowingly and sometimes unknowingly killed or helped kill people, including over 1000 fetuses or newborns, whose mothers asked her to abort or kill them (thus saving the mother's life and perhaps the Jewish race, since she thought if the mothers survived then after Aushwitz they could have more babies). The movie shares her experience thru flashbacks as she's facing the INS panel.
32drann First Message
Dear Almigwin,
I just wanted to say thanks for including me on this distinguished list of authors and books -- I am honored!
Warm regards,
Ann Kirschner, author of SALA'S GIFT
I just wanted to say thanks for including me on this distinguished list of authors and books -- I am honored!
Warm regards,
Ann Kirschner, author of SALA'S GIFT
33canalrat First Message
I have just bought Suite Francaise on a recommendation of a friend so I'm glad to see it recommended here.
I'd like to add to your list, A Thread of Grace by Mary Doria Russell it is written as a novel detailing sanctuary provided to thousands of Jews by Italian Gentiles. It's a moving tale based on real events.
I'd like to add to your list, A Thread of Grace by Mary Doria Russell it is written as a novel detailing sanctuary provided to thousands of Jews by Italian Gentiles. It's a moving tale based on real events.
34van_stef
A really good moving story about children in the camps is Children of the Flames: Dr. Josef Mengele and the Untold Story of the Twins of Auschwitz by Lucette Matalon Lagnado. It's a really different perspective than most and really depressing to read, but is a very good account.
Or Kinderlager: An Oral History of Young Holocaust Survivors is also a very good read. Very short and is mainly filled with pictures and short bios, it's a very easy read that still is filled with lots of information.
Or Kinderlager: An Oral History of Young Holocaust Survivors is also a very good read. Very short and is mainly filled with pictures and short bios, it's a very easy read that still is filled with lots of information.
35truthspurelight 
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where are the memorials to remember the crimes of the british empire? why should we be subjected to holocaust memorials. i couldn't give a damn about something that may or may not have happened in a foreign land before i was born. does strike me as odd that there are so many survivors from so-called death camps.
36tiffin
#35, "truthspurelight", perhaps if you actually read some of the books referred to on this thread, your questions (which strike me as insensitive and provocative) might be answered.
As for "so many survivors": that there were any at all is because people like my father laid their lives on the line and then, when the war was over, went in and carried those half-dead people out in their arms to hospitalization, rehabilitation and, as my father fervently hoped, to life.
As for "so many survivors": that there were any at all is because people like my father laid their lives on the line and then, when the war was over, went in and carried those half-dead people out in their arms to hospitalization, rehabilitation and, as my father fervently hoped, to life.
37teelgee
truthspurelight -- you had better give a damn about something that happened in foreign lands before you were born. History has a way of repeating itself.
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
38lilithcat
Why was message #35 flagged? It contained no "(1) personal attacks, (2) commercial solicitation, (3) spam", whch are the permissible reasons for doing so. That the poster is clearly wrongheaded is no reason for flagging.
It disturbs me greatly that on this thread, of all things, a post would be flagged out of visibility because the sentiments expressed are anathema to most of us.
Y'all should be ashamed.
It disturbs me greatly that on this thread, of all things, a post would be flagged out of visibility because the sentiments expressed are anathema to most of us.
Y'all should be ashamed.
39tiffin
Lilithcat, most respectfully: you may feel that a post from a member who joined only today, has no books catalogued and posted anti-holocaust "sentiments" on a thread dedicated to readings about the holocaust should have been allowed to have those comments left to stand. Others, clearly, did not. Just as you are allowed your opinion, so are they. If it did not cross a line into hate mongering and vicious trolling for you, perhaps it did for them. While I am sympathetic to your position on censorship, it is my opinion that it isn't helpful to tell people that they should be ashamed.
Exactly this issue was debated long and hard in Canada, over the issue of banning Ernst Zundel's publishing and distribution of hate literature. In the end it was decided that censoring his hate literature was more beneficial to society than the damage which might be done by not censoring in that instance.
Exactly this issue was debated long and hard in Canada, over the issue of banning Ernst Zundel's publishing and distribution of hate literature. In the end it was decided that censoring his hate literature was more beneficial to society than the damage which might be done by not censoring in that instance.
40EncompassedRunner
I missed the drama, but conscience compels me to chime in and join lilithcat in opposing flagging because of comments that are merely offensive. Martin Niemoller's point works both ways, in that it should also be a warning against suppression of hate speech, because if, for ex, first people ban racist speech, next they can ban christian speech deemed offensive (for ex, because it conflicts with support of homosexuality), next they can ban zionist speech, and so on. Better to expose and rebut ignorance and error put on display.
Speaking of which, and a book tie-in...CAMERA, Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, takes this approach in rebutting antisemitism (including Holocaust denial/negationism), and has just come out with a 100-page book rebuttal to Jimmy Carter's attrocious error-ridden, hate-promoting Palestine Peace Not Apartheid, which gets rave reviews from Muslims, white supremacists, Holocaust deniers ("historical revisionists"), neo-nazis, etc.
The CAMERA book is called Bearing False Witness: Jimmy Carter's Palestine Peace Not Apartheid--the Touchstone is showing up red though, so I don't know if it will work, but here's the book page, which also shows the ISBN and tags indicating subjects covered: Bearing False Witness: Jimmy Carter's Palestine Peace Not Apartheid and here's the website to the very excellent CAMERA .
(The book primarily deals with factual errors from Carter's book, such as regarding Resolution 242, false assertions about international law, erroneous statements about Israel's security barrier, and so on, though it does mention a very few of Carter's lies and omissions made during his book promotion tour, but it doesn't get into Carter's antisemitic history not related to the book--such as intercession for a Nazi murderer, memo noting there were too many Jews on a Holocaust Museum committee, going on Al Jazeera stating that he didn't equate Palestinian rockets with terrorism, etc.)
Speaking of which, and a book tie-in...CAMERA, Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, takes this approach in rebutting antisemitism (including Holocaust denial/negationism), and has just come out with a 100-page book rebuttal to Jimmy Carter's attrocious error-ridden, hate-promoting Palestine Peace Not Apartheid, which gets rave reviews from Muslims, white supremacists, Holocaust deniers ("historical revisionists"), neo-nazis, etc.
The CAMERA book is called Bearing False Witness: Jimmy Carter's Palestine Peace Not Apartheid--the Touchstone is showing up red though, so I don't know if it will work, but here's the book page, which also shows the ISBN and tags indicating subjects covered: Bearing False Witness: Jimmy Carter's Palestine Peace Not Apartheid and here's the website to the very excellent CAMERA .
(The book primarily deals with factual errors from Carter's book, such as regarding Resolution 242, false assertions about international law, erroneous statements about Israel's security barrier, and so on, though it does mention a very few of Carter's lies and omissions made during his book promotion tour, but it doesn't get into Carter's antisemitic history not related to the book--such as intercession for a Nazi murderer, memo noting there were too many Jews on a Holocaust Museum committee, going on Al Jazeera stating that he didn't equate Palestinian rockets with terrorism, etc.)
41lilithcat
>> Just as you are allowed your opinion, so are they.
And so is Truthspurelight. If we start flagging (and making invisible) posts with whose sentiments we disagree, even when they are within the TOS, where does it end?
And so is Truthspurelight. If we start flagging (and making invisible) posts with whose sentiments we disagree, even when they are within the TOS, where does it end?
42laytonwoman3rd
If you ask me, a post such as #35 on a thread such as this is spam. Something other than freedom of expression is being tested here. If truthspurelight wants to express his opinions about the holocaust, let him start a thread to debate the subject. This thread, being entitled "Holocaust Experiences" is not the place for it, any more than a crowded theater is the place to practice shouting "Fire!". And his post is not "invisible", it's merely not shown. Clicking on "(show)" at the end of the message reveals it to anyone who wants to know what it said; that's how I read it.
43EncompassedRunner
Oh, I didn't realize there was a "(show)" option, that's fair.
44kiwidoc
#38 and #40 - I feel that the post #35 should be flagged.
I actually feel that this person should be banned from LT. The statement made was provocative and malicious, especially in the context of this thread.
It was not made in any spirit of debate, did not invite sensible rhetoric and was intensely inflammatory.
I agree with #42 above that there must be public censor of outright bad manners and inappropriate behaviour. And #37, although I respect your opinion on the subject, I do think that chiding others for their opinions is in bad form, too.
I actually feel that this person should be banned from LT. The statement made was provocative and malicious, especially in the context of this thread.
It was not made in any spirit of debate, did not invite sensible rhetoric and was intensely inflammatory.
I agree with #42 above that there must be public censor of outright bad manners and inappropriate behaviour. And #37, although I respect your opinion on the subject, I do think that chiding others for their opinions is in bad form, too.
45CEP
I agree with #42. I read #35 shortly after it was posted and thought about an appropriate response. I was angry but reluctant to employ censorship. The spammy and provocative nature of the post was confirmed as noted earlier in # 39. The writer joined LT the very day of the post and has no entries in his/her catalog. I am curious to know if the writer of the item is even following this thread.
46almigwin
The history of lies related to anti-semitism has a long and ugly history. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the Beilis (sp) case, and the lie that gentile blood was used to make matzo contributed to the pogroms in Russia and the hatred of the jews among the Russian and Ukrainian peasants.
Along with thousands of books and first person accounts of the holocaust, I'd like to tell the deniers that my brother-in-law was among the american soldiers, along with Tiffin's father, that
liberated one of the concentration camps. The horror that he witnessed stayed with him all his life, and he is 84. One of the things that bothered him was that the perpetrators were raised as christians.
Isn't telling lies for provocation rather than just having an opinion a different thing? If lies are told to create dissension and possibly cruelty, isn't that akin to shouting 'fire' in a theatre?
The history of anti-semitic behavior is as bad or worse than any stampede. Isn't it a hate crime to tell such a lie? Or aren't hate crimes punished everywhere?
I wonder why 'truthspurelight' joined librarything only to post this harmful lie and not to catalog anything, or identify himself or herself in his or her profile.
Along with thousands of books and first person accounts of the holocaust, I'd like to tell the deniers that my brother-in-law was among the american soldiers, along with Tiffin's father, that
liberated one of the concentration camps. The horror that he witnessed stayed with him all his life, and he is 84. One of the things that bothered him was that the perpetrators were raised as christians.
Isn't telling lies for provocation rather than just having an opinion a different thing? If lies are told to create dissension and possibly cruelty, isn't that akin to shouting 'fire' in a theatre?
The history of anti-semitic behavior is as bad or worse than any stampede. Isn't it a hate crime to tell such a lie? Or aren't hate crimes punished everywhere?
I wonder why 'truthspurelight' joined librarything only to post this harmful lie and not to catalog anything, or identify himself or herself in his or her profile.
47peterbrown
This question (hide/show/ban?) arises every so often in the public library: why do we keep Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf on the open shelves? Other books are also queried, such as Uncle Tom's Cabin, so that you could, if the librarian gave in to the demands for removal or a 'reserved' status, end up, as my predecessor did, with an office full of locally censored books - and of course that they are in the 'office' gives them an additional status for many of the wrong reasons.
Where ignorance exists let it be exposed for what it is: a lack of knowledge - and thereby understanding and empathy. To answer the question: 'where are the memorials to remember the crimes of the British Empire?': I have just returned from the Slavery Exhibition at Liverpool's Maritime Museum. This will go on to form a key part of the International Slavery Museum, due to open in Liverpool in 2010. Here is a very moving exhibition to the victims of the British Empire. It was this horrific subjugation of millions of children, women and men over centuries that has played its part in the process of demeaning 'others' as different and uncivilized and by example paved a way to today's ignorance and racial prejudice, whether it be manifest in Nazi Germany, George Wallace or Enoch Powell, or the throwaway insult in the street.
Where ignorance exists let it be exposed for what it is: a lack of knowledge - and thereby understanding and empathy. To answer the question: 'where are the memorials to remember the crimes of the British Empire?': I have just returned from the Slavery Exhibition at Liverpool's Maritime Museum. This will go on to form a key part of the International Slavery Museum, due to open in Liverpool in 2010. Here is a very moving exhibition to the victims of the British Empire. It was this horrific subjugation of millions of children, women and men over centuries that has played its part in the process of demeaning 'others' as different and uncivilized and by example paved a way to today's ignorance and racial prejudice, whether it be manifest in Nazi Germany, George Wallace or Enoch Powell, or the throwaway insult in the street.
48EncompassedRunner
My local library has Imperium by F. Yockey in the young adult section--that's just crazy.
Websites confronting Holocaust Denial/Negation:
HolocaustDenialAbsurdities, and
HolocaustControversies
Websites confronting Holocaust Denial/Negation:
HolocaustDenialAbsurdities, and
HolocaustControversies
49GirlFromIpanema
#3: "a book by Gotz Aly, Hitlers Volksstaat. The book hasn't yet been translated into English (but probably will be). "
The book is now available in English as Hitler's beneficiaries.
The name of the author is of course Götz Aly, not GOtz Aly (*grrrr* touchstones!).
The book is now available in English as Hitler's beneficiaries.
The name of the author is of course Götz Aly, not GOtz Aly (*grrrr* touchstones!).
50Thrin
This is not exactly on-topic, but it may be a book to interest those posting here: The Pity of it All: A portrait of Jews in Germany 1743-1933 by Amos Elon.
51Thrin
As posted elsewhere today, I have just begun Victor Klemperer's I Shall Bear Witness. The Diaries of Victor Klemperer 1933-1941. I am hoping to discover where all the thinkers in Germany were. (I know about Gunther Grass.) Who, of the writers, academics and artists - who of "the Left" stood up against fascism? Why were they unable to affect the political climate which allowed Hitler to come to power?
Can anyone recommend any books which deal, particularly, with this subject?
Incidentally I don't for a moment think that this "couldn't happen here" (anywhere).
Can anyone recommend any books which deal, particularly, with this subject?
Incidentally I don't for a moment think that this "couldn't happen here" (anywhere).
