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Deathly Hallows discussion Chapters 33-Epilogue - FINAL

Hogwarts Express

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1biblioholic29
Aug 18, 2008, 8:32am Top

This weeks chapters are:

33: The Prince's Tale
34: The Forest Again
35: King's Cross
36: The Flaw in the Plan
Epilogue: Nineteen Years Later

Advanced warning. When we get to chapter 36, I seemed to lose all ability for coherent thought, my notes are pretty much just me yelling names of awesome people.

2foggidawn
Aug 18, 2008, 9:09am Top

Hah! My notes for chapter 36 are very similar, Bib. Here's my advance warning: I have more notes for Chapter 33 than for the rest of the chapters and the epilogue together! I'll be back with those in a bit.

3compskibook
Aug 18, 2008, 9:28am Top

I still haven't been able to get around to notes for chapter 36. Maybe today. For now:

Chapter 33: The Prince’s Tale

1. I like that the name of the chapter is the title Snape gave to himself.

2. The great hall scene is so hard to read.

3. Dumbledore’s portrait showed up right after he died. I was kind of surprised Snape’s wasn’t there this time, but maybe it was, the frame was just empty like the rest.

4. Poor Snape. You really see a lot of his character development in these early stories.

5. Poor ‘Tuney. Was she ever happy?

6. I feel like the early memories of Lily are a gift from Snape to Harry. He gets to see what his mom was like.

7. Love the line “You know, I sometimes think we Sort too soon…”

8. If the curse was contained in Dumbledore’s hand, why not amputate? It would be hard to live with one hand, but he would have lived.

4biblioholic29
Aug 18, 2008, 9:43am Top

3.8: Good question!

Chapter 33:

1. "...shock at the way Snape had been killed and the reason for which it had been done..." That about sums it up! Like many I expected him to die, but the way and reason were a surprise.

2. DD as the password doesn't make sense. Snape would have to tell other teachers the password, wouldn't they think it was weird? The Carrows might think it was funny, it would seriously tick off the rest of them.

3. Amazing the control Lily had.

4. It's sad to see that Lily and Petunia were once close. It makes Petunia's dislike of magic more understandable (though it's still maddening that she knew how to get onto Platform 9 3/4 and didn't tell Harry).

5. Oh Sev., there are no words!

6. Apparently Snape is a contortionist. I made my mom play DD slumped in a chair and there is no comfortable way to point your wand at a right hand, with your right hand and tip a goblet with your left. Even standing behind DD it would have been very awkward, since DD's chair is "highbacked" and "throne-like".

7. Again, I must wonder why DD never told Harry how to destroy a Horcrux. I understand his (odd) reasoning on holding back a lot of the other information, but it was just stupid for him to leave for the cave without telling Harry how to destroy it.

8. Snape makes the Confundus Charm seem like a cross between hypnotism and Force persuasion.

5foggidawn
Edited: Aug 18, 2008, 4:06pm Top

Chapter 33:

1) So sad! I'm upset that both Lupin and Tonks died -- but then I have to ask myself, would it be better if only one of them had died? I have to say yes -- Teddy would have had at least one living parent. I think Lupin had to die so that he could be in the scene in the forest (more notes on that when we get there). If just Remus had died, Tonks would have been very sad, but she would have lived, for her son at least.

2) I am so happy we get to "see" these memories! Aww, Little Sev! ;-)

3) "Tuney"? What an awful nickname! I can see the poor girl going through middle school as "Tuna Fish" -- I almost understand some of her adult neuroses!

4) James echoes Draco -- or I suppose Draco echoed James. "I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" Of course, James was speaking of Slytherin, and Draco was speaking of Hufflepuff.

5) Sev had to know that no muggle-born would even land in Slytherin. He'd have been better off wishing that he would end up in Gryffindor. Of course, then we might not have had a story. ;-)

6) "Is this remorse, Severus?" Remorse, and the ability to feel remorse, becomes very important in these last few chapters.

7) Page 679: Best. Page. Ever. "My word, Severus, that I will never reveal the best of you?" Perhaps it's because I empathize so strongly with this character, but I can feel Sev's agony, and his resolve.

8) Like Compski, I noted that I love the line, "Sometimes I think we Sort too soon."

9) "Would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?" LOL! Sev with a sense of humor!

10) "You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation." We could have some interesting discussions about this line, that's for sure. I'm interested to see what everyone else has to say about this.

11) Snape and Harry, both irritated because Dumbledore doesn't confide with them his every thought and plan!

12) "Everything was supposed to be to keep Lily Potter's son safe. Now you tell me you have been raising him like a pig for slaughter--" I think it's interesting that he refers to her as Lily Potter, rather than Lily Evans, or even just Lily. I also think that this illustrates the difference between Snape's motivations (love for individuals) and Dumbledore's (still "the greater good").

13) "After all this time?" How long did Dumbledore pine for Grindelwald? Rita accuses him of postponing a confrontation for decades. So, Dumbledore can cherish a hopeless love for decades, but is surprised that Snape's has lasted eighteen years? I think it's a human tendency to think that our pain is great and unique. Others can't possibly feel as strongly as we do ourselves. I know I've been guilty of this.

14) In one paragraph, Dung's reluctance to help, Snape's correct information to Voldy, and George's ear are all neatly explained.

15) "Do not use that word!" -- he's come a long way, baby. ;-)

16) You've probably guessed as much by now, but this is my favorite chapter in the book. In fact, it may be my favorite chapter in the whole series.

(Edited to fix a typo.)

6Mandy2
Aug 18, 2008, 9:59am Top

4:1 after reading it again the whole snape staring at the snake takes on new meaning.

4:2 I kinda thought that since at that moment there really was no Head master harry could have said anything or Snape has 2 passwords one just for him so the office would know he was coming and one for everyone else. Just a thought.

4:4 It's like when Hollybee started dating her now husband and we went from hanging out everyday to hanging out if he wasn't around and so for the longest time I hated him. You know? You hate the thing that takes your sister away from you.

4:6 It makes sense in my head.

7foggidawn
Aug 18, 2008, 10:12am Top

3.3 -- I have that note later. JKR explained the oversight (I do think it was an oversight!) by saying that his picture didn't appear because he "abandoned" his post, and that Harry was instrumental in getting the picture there later. Like you, I think it should have been there as soon as he died. At least, the empty frame should have been (DD didn't appear in his picture until some time after the funeral).

3.8 -- Perhaps the curse would have escaped if the hand had been amputated?

4.1 -- Me too! I gave my thoughts on Snape's death in the last discussion thread, but at first reading it was a shock.

4.2 -- My other thought is that Snape's authority over the gargoyle might have been broken when he left the castle. In that case, there might not have been a password, and Harry could have shouted "Open Sesame" and it would have had the same effect. I think I like Mandy's explanation better, though. :-)

4.3 -- Yeah -- everyone's always saying that she was pretty amazing. Kinda like Hermione without the know-it-all attitude.

4.6 -- I never even thought about it! I have an amusing mental picture of you and your mom role-playing now, though! ;-)

4.8 -- Perhaps he had Dung Confunded and under the Imperius curse? But then, if he was Imperiused, why would he need him Confunded? That is a little odd.

8biblioholic29
Aug 18, 2008, 10:38am Top

6.4.4: Exactly. I had a different example I was thinking of, but that one is less painful.

6.4.6: Tonight have Don sit in a chair and dangle his right hand over the arm, then you try to find a comfortable way to point your wand at it with your right hand and make him drink with your left hand. (This really only bother's me because JKR specified that Snape used his left hand to make DD drink.)

7.3.3: I vaguely remember her saying that now that you mention it. I have the same note later though. Are you sure DD didn't show up in the frame until after the funeral? No, that can't be right because HBP ends right after the funeral, Harry doesn't go back up to the headmaster's office then. I think DD is sleeping or something when McG takes Harry and the HoH's up to discuss the ramifications of DD's death... (sorry, that turned into stream of consciousness thought!)

7.4.2: I think I like Mandy's explanation better too, otherwise why would the gargoyle have bothered asking for a password?

9Mandy2
Aug 18, 2008, 10:43am Top

is he drinking the potion? Now i need the book i thought he was pouring the potion over the hand...am I making things up, again?

10biblioholic29
Aug 18, 2008, 11:14am Top

Pretty sure he's "tipping the potion down DD's throat". You should definitely double-check though, maybe I read it wrong.

11compskibook
Aug 18, 2008, 11:20am Top

4.2 Bib: I wondered about the password, but maybe it was set to open to anything Harry said.

4.7 I don't think he knew he would die that night. He was probably planning to destroy the locket with Harry, then he would have know how to destroy horcruxes.

5.9 Foggi: Who knew? I love it.

7.4.2 Foggi: It can't be just because he left, because Umbridge couldn't get in when DD left. Maybe because he was dead, though.

12foggidawn
Aug 18, 2008, 11:26am Top

#11.7.4.2 (that looks like a locker combination or something) -- Not because he left, but because the way in which he left made it seem that he was abandoning Hogwarts. It's a fine line, I know.

13biblioholic29
Aug 18, 2008, 11:42am Top

11.4.7: Sorry, but no one's going to change my mind on this one. He knew they were headed into danger. He knew it was entirely possible one or both of them might not be coming back, this is made evident by his telling Harry to do what he told him, no matter what, even if it was run and leave him behind. He knew his days were extremely numbered. If nothing else, when he knew he was going to be drinking the potion he should have told Harry how to do it. I know that he didn't expect to die that night, but in my mind that's simply not and excuse for not mentioning it at some point. How hard would it have been during their first discussion of the Horcruxes for him to say something like, Horcruxes are hard to destroy but here are the things that will do it and why....? Even if he planned to destroy the one with Harry. I think it was unnecessary addition to the plot, there were enough mysteries without the minor "Why did he leave Harry the sword?" mystery.

14biblioholic29
Aug 18, 2008, 12:45pm Top

So....we seem to be done with that for now....here are my Chap. 34 notes:

1. There's so much I feel as I'm reading the resurrection stone bit, but I can't put any of it into words.

2. JKR is a genius

3. Hagrid's okay! Well, maybe not okay, but alive!

15compskibook
Aug 18, 2008, 1:01pm Top

14.1 I couldn't either.

Chapter 34: The Forest Again

1. Why this title? Is it “Again” because of the other times he has been there? I looked it up and there was the chapter in PS/SS titled "The Forbidden Forrest." It is significant since he did come face to face with Voldemort then.

2. Why kill Collin Creevy? She is torturing us!

3. Thank goodness he decided to tell Neville about the snake. When I first read this I thought maybe Neville would end up finishing off Voldemort since the beginning of the prophecy also described him.

16Mandy2
Aug 18, 2008, 1:19pm Top

15:1 I think it is "again" because as he is walking through doesn't he start thinking about the other times he'd been in there?

17foggidawn
Aug 18, 2008, 1:40pm Top

#15.2 -- I have a "poor Colin" note, too, but frankly, Colin is the sort of character that one expects to die in books like this, a bit like the Star Trek character that gets killed by the aliens before the second commercial break. It was a war. People were going to die. Colin doesn't bother me nearly as much as Fred . . . or Tonks . . . or Sev . . . even though I can think of at least one "reason" for each of those characters' deaths.

18littlegeek
Aug 18, 2008, 3:43pm Top

OK, I know some of you will hate me for this, but I think JKR is making some major plot mistakes here, all for the sake of turning Harry into a Jesus figure.

The prophecy states that "either must die by the hand of the other." If this is true, wouldn't Harry's best strategy be to make sure that Nagini is dead, and then go after Voldy in a duel, expecting that they both will perish? Walking into Voldy's lair and giving himself up, without defending himself or explaining it to his friends, before all the other horcruxes are destroyed, is not only illogical and shortsighted, it's plain stupid.

Remember, when Harry enters the forest, he doesn't believe he is coming back. Where would that leave his friends once he's dead? First, the survivors would have to recover the shock of losing their leader, the person they believe to be their only hope against pure evil. Everyone is going to wonder why Harry just gave up, and even if he did fight, how could anyone else possibly defeat Voldy. Even if someone tries, only Ron & Herminone (and a limited way, Neville) know that Voldy's not going anywhere unless Nagini is killed first.

Looks like under the best of circumstances, they'd be under totalitarian rule for quite a spell. Their first assumption is going to be that they'd lost, and lost definitively. We would hope they could regroup and possibly get the job done eventually, but it would be while operating under the same kind of information blind that DD left Harry in. Not knowing any of the information in Snape's memories. Not knowing what made Harry just walk into the lion's den like that.

And what would stop Voldy from creating a few more horcruxes in the meantime?

JKR had so many options here, Harry could still be willing to martyr himself, but in a way that could definitely ensure that his side will win, given that he actually believes he's going to die.

19foggidawn
Aug 18, 2008, 3:54pm Top

#18 -- I see where you're coming from. I can't say that it's ever bothered me, because I get caught up in the narrative -- for me, it works. But I agree that she had other options. I did think it strange that he sacrificed himself before Nagini was dead. On the other hand, Voldy had stated his intention of killing every person standing between himself and Harry, which Harry, with his "saving people" obsession, could never countenance. He'd already seen four people he was fairly close to lying dead from that battle. He'd just learned that he and Voldy were connected -- that, basically, he was a horcrux. I think he knew or hoped that everyone would continue to fight, he knew that three people knew that Nagini had to be destroyed . . . I think that seeing Dumbledore in Snape's memories convinced Harry that his (Harry's) death was the next essential step in defeating Voldemort -- once Harry was dead and Nagini destroyed, any reasonably competent and courageous wizard could kill Voldemort. Neville could. Arthur could. Minerva could. Not to mention Ron or Hermione.

20littlegeek
Aug 18, 2008, 4:05pm Top

#19 Possilby right, but no one but Harry has access to that information. Most everyone is under the assumption that only Harry can kill Voldy; what is their reaction going to be when Harry is dead by Voldy's hand? Those left behind are missing some key bits of info not knowing what Harry has just learned from Snape's memories.

It's quite a leap to assume that what he's about to do will actually save lives in the long run. He's not thinking clearly at all.

Like you, the first 3 times I read it, I just went along for the ride, it's just that it doesn't hold up if you think it all the way through. Actually, the first couple times I was totally lost with all the stuff about wands and I just blew a lot of it off, enjoying the emotions. But it does take away from it now, for me, having taken the time to think it through and finding it all wanting.

Don't get me started on the wands, oy. That's for a later post.

21foggidawn
Aug 18, 2008, 6:34pm Top

Chapter 34 notes:

1) Poor Colin! (I did say I had that note!)

2) I still can't get over how happy I am that Neville got to be a hero.

3) I'm glad Harry got to see Ginny before going into the forest.

4) There really aren't words for the scene where Harry walks through the forest surrounded by his beloved dead. So touching.

5) Remus' line, "I was trying to make a world in which he could live a happier life," always brings tears to my eyes.

6) Bellatrix is disturbing. Crush on Voldy? Too weird for me, thanks!

22foggidawn
Aug 18, 2008, 8:35pm Top

Chapter 35 notes:

1) Dumbledore, King of Exposition, rides again!

2) Continuing on the theme of remorse, we're told that Grindelwald showed remorse in his last days.

3) The chapter ending is brilliant. "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?

23compskibook
Aug 18, 2008, 9:29pm Top

Chapter 35: King’s Cross

1. Wakes up naked, eh? That will be fun in the movie.

2. So, the thing on the floor is the part of Voldemort’s soul that was in Harry, right?

3. Is there a significance that they are in King’s Cross Station? Apparently Harry’s mind chose it.

24biblioholic29
Aug 19, 2008, 8:22am Top

#20: Technically, the only people who actually know for sure what the prophecy said were Ron and Hermione. Also, Ron and Hermione know that Snape gave Harry his memories, I imagine after the initial shock wore off, they'd go check them out. It may not be much, but it's enough for me.

23.1: Nothing new for Dan!

23.2: I think so.

23.3: I think it's a way-station. This is where Harry decides what journey he will take, will he go back and fight, or will he move on through death. It could have been a bus station, airport, dock, etc., but obviously it had to be King's Cross because that's where this journey started for him, when he got on the train at Platform 9 3/4 the first time, he started the journey to this moment, it's fitting that he could choose to end it there as well.

25biblioholic29
Aug 19, 2008, 8:25am Top

Chap. 35:

1. I think the first few paragraphs of this chapter might be JKR's best writing (from a purely literary standpoint).

2. Here's another moment when I think what a genius JKR is, throwing in the line in GoF about DD's look of triumph and finally explaining why 3 books later!

3. "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real." My absolute, 100%, favorite line in all of Harry Potter for extremely personal reasons.

26littlegeek
Aug 19, 2008, 10:33am Top

#24.20 It's pretty much a commonly held belief that "The Boy Who Lived" is everyone's savior. And how are Ron & Hermione going to view Snape's memories if they can't get into DD's office because Voldy has control of Hogwarts? Have they ever used a pensieve, do they know how?

I guess part of why these details bug me is that I could have seen a much bigger part for Snape in the final showdown. I kind of hate the he has such an ignominius death. Then again, as foggi points out, he's not one for the grand public gesture.

I do really love the walk in the forest. Very touching. I like how JKR takes pains to call them "illusions" etc. so we don't think they're ghosts or their actual spirits. They even wear their glasses. DD in King's Cross, too. However, Harry in King's Cross does not.

22.3 & 25.3 One of my fav lines, too.

I'm still a little confused about the icky baby in King's Cross. I thought the point was for the portion of Voldy in Harry to die, so Voldy is more vulnerable. Yet there it is, in limbo, just like Harry. Wouldn't it need to get on a train, or dissolve or something?

So, is Harry able to come back because of the little bit of Harry in Voldy or because of his mother's sacrifice or because of his own willingness to be a martyr? I'm a bit confused on that point.

24.23.1 KIK!!!

27biblioholic29
Aug 19, 2008, 11:10am Top

My understanding is that Harry is able to come back because "his mother's protection" that lives in his veins is also in Voldemort. I seriously don't understand why the protection "broke" for Harry when he turned 17 and didn't break for Voldy or why, Voldy can then die while Harry's still alive because yeah he killed the Horcrux bit but he still has Harry's blood. It's all very odd. Basically I've decided to ignore the holes and enjoy the ride, because if I start thinking about them it might ruin it.

Come to think of it, this is probably why I prefer nitpicking the little things, like Snape contortion, magic rules, and math. These are things that should have been picked up by JKR or an editor. I'm too impressed with JKR for having such an intricate plot living in her head for ten years that I don't want to look to closely and what might not really work. Does that make sense?

28biblioholic29
Aug 19, 2008, 11:47am Top

Okay, so here are my Chapter 36 notes. Remember, you've been warned (see #1).

1. Narcissa Malfoy!

2. NEVILLE!

3. The house-elves make me cry more than anyone else. Go Kreacher!

4. So glad Hagrid got to fight MacNair!

5. I LOVE MRS. WEASLEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

6. The exposition is fascinating and annoying. I mean, yes we need it to understand what's going on, but since when is Harry a Bond villain, explaining everything before he offs Voldy?

7. One more reason to love Luna. "Oh, look and Blibbering Humdinger!"

8. "Really gives a feeling for the scope and tragedy of the thing, doesn't it." Gotta love Peeves.

9. I love that Harry chooses his wand over the Elder wand.

10. Wish Snape's portrait had been there. (I know foggi already addressed this, and she's right, but the note is still there!)

29Mandy2
Aug 19, 2008, 12:08pm Top

28.5 Yea she's great!!!

First time through I had to read the whole wand thing like 3 times before kinda getting it. Still have questions but I've decided to let me be swept under the rug and to just enjoy the Harry Potter Journey!

30Mandy2
Aug 19, 2008, 12:28pm Top

Also just want to say...I LOVE NEVILLE'S GRANDMA!!!

31littlegeek
Aug 19, 2008, 12:33pm Top

OK, I'm glad I'm not the only that finds it all very confusing. The wand thing I really don't think I "got" until this reading.

I agree about the Bond thing, bib!

As to the wands, now that I think I have figured it all out, I have a bit of a quibble. Why don't I just quote my review update:

the Elder Wand. It's supposed to be so powerful that its owner can't lose, but we find out that both Grindelwald and Dumbledore himself were relieved of it during confrontations without being killed. And Dumbledore was bested by Draco Malfoy of all people. (I know, I know, DD is in a weakened state, but not so weak he cannot keep Harry motionless (without his wand, btw, um explain that again?).) The wand itself "choses" Malfoy for its master--what could that be other than plot-wrangling? Seems to me the wand would have had a choice of Draco or Snape, and who is the obvious winner?

Like many of you, the first time I just shrugged off the stuff I couldn't parse, figuring that JKR must know what she's doing and I'd go back later and work it out in my head. Having done that, I'm a bit disappointed.

It all works when you're in the throes of the drama, but on reflection, there are issues.

32biblioholic29
Aug 19, 2008, 12:51pm Top

I agree for the most part with your review update, but I will say in HBP DD casts "a full body-bind curse" on Harry and "the split second" it took for him to do that left him unable to protect himself before Malfoy expelliarmused him. (Hmmm....spellcheck doesn't like "expelliarmused". It doesn't like "spellcheck" either.) I do agree that an awful lot of people seem to get the wand without killing, which seems a bit odd. The hardest one for me to get past is Grindewald. He just stole it, why would the wand recognize him?

Oh well, I have fun with the rest of it.

33littlegeek
Aug 19, 2008, 1:18pm Top

The other thing I don't quite understand is that somehow Harry is the Elder Wand's master simply because he got control of a different wand of Malfoy's. It it's that easy, then owning the Elder Wand is even more vulnerable, because presumably you'd need a wand to get control over it, and then all the next guy has to do is get control over your first wand, not the Elder Wand itself.

Is there a way to "divorce" yourself from your first wand? I guess you could just destroy it, but you'd have to know to do that.

Hey, wouldn't that mean that Harry doesn't even have to be in control of Draco's wand, since his wand overpowered Voldy's way back in GoF?

arrrghghghghghghg!

34Mandy2
Aug 19, 2008, 1:24pm Top

exactly what i was talking about when i said i still have questions. Mainly the whole taking dracos wand makes the elder wand his too....I blame the Wand.

35jjwilson61
Aug 19, 2008, 1:31pm Top

32> If Grindy stole the wand maybe he wasn't it's master and that's how he lost to DD.

36biblioholic29
Aug 19, 2008, 1:59pm Top

But then how did DD become the master? He would have had to defeat the actual master of the wand in order to be the master himself.

37Espeon200
Aug 19, 2008, 2:29pm Top

I think J.K. tries to give herself an out here when Harry talks with Ollivander. She says something to the effect of wand succession is a very complicated thing. I think the most important thing in wand succession is that you have to prove yourself to the wand in some way. This means that wands are at least somewhat sentient; they have been portrayed as such since the first book (the wand chooses the wizard).

I think the reason why the wand accepted Grindlewald is that Grindy gave the wand more scope for its power. The wandmaker was content to study the Elder Wand and not use it, but Grindlewald wanted to actually use the wand for a great purpose. I think the wand could see this and chose Grindlewald.

Now this doesn't explain why the wand chose Harry instead of Voldy since Voldy would give the wand more chances to use its power. Harry even gave up the wand after he was done fighting Voldy. Also, shouldn't the wand have defaulted to Voldy after he killed Harry in the forrest? I agree that the whole wand succession thing doesn't make a lot of sense, but there are a lot of other things in life that are like this.

Once again, I wish the J.K. had made everything perfect and I had nothing to complain about in the books. But she is human, and that means she has to make mistakes. I can accept some mistakes more readily than others, and this is one that I don't have any problem accepting.

38Espeon200
Aug 19, 2008, 2:38pm Top

I have yet to read the chapters, but one thing I'd like to mention about Chapter 36 is the full circle nature of Voldy's name.

Since the beginning of the book he as bee called "He who must not be named" by most wizards in the world. One of the few exceptions was Dumbledore who called Voldy "Voldemort," something Harry did as well to emulate his hero, Albus.

But later Dumbledore discovers Voldy's real name is Tom Marvolo Riddle. And from some time in the books begins to call Voldy Tom. I find it interesting that this is possibly the must hurtful thing Dumbledore could do to Voldy since he is determined to get rid of all commonalities with the human race.

So we come full circle at the end of the battle of Hogwarts with Harry calling Voldy by his given name Tom. I like the fact that Harry is now showing, like Dumbledore, that he is not afraid of Voldy. By calling Voldy Tom, Harry has shown that Voldy isn't an all-powerful; Voldy is just another wizard with a name like many others.

39biblioholic29
Aug 19, 2008, 2:50pm Top

It is a powerful moment when Harry calls Voldy, Tom.

I never thought Harry called Voldemort because DD (and Sirius and Lupin) called him that, I always felt like he did it first because he didn't know any better, and second because it's dumb. I think that when he says "so-and-so does it" it's not his reason for doing it, it's a defense mechanism. "So-and-so does it, why aren't you yelling at them?" I know I gave responses like that a lot when I was a child. I'd be interested to hear if you feel different, I think one of the most fascinating things about these discussions is discovering the ideas I got from my reading that I assumed were fact are not and that others have different ideas.

As to DD switching to calling Voldy Tom; he always knew Tom was Voldy, but we the reader didn't and she had that big reveal at the end of CoS, so she couldn't exactly have DD calling him Tom until then!

Again, I agree the evolution of the name is important and love that you pointed it out!

40littlegeek
Aug 19, 2008, 3:08pm Top

The name thing is good, espy, I agree.

With the wand thing, I think that overall it's just too complicated. You have to balance keeping the reader off balance with having all the pieces fit. Mostly JKR does a great job with this, I just think she, understandably, tried for a little too much for her big ending.

41kirbyowns
Aug 19, 2008, 3:14pm Top

I love reading everyones' notes.

42biblioholic29
Aug 19, 2008, 3:58pm Top

I'm about to leave, so I want to finish up and post my Epilogue notes before I go. There's just one:

I know it's controversial, but I like the epilogue. Yes, there were questions I was left with, but a lot of those have been answered by JKR and more will hopefully be answered in the Encyclopedia someday. Anyway, life is not about tying up loose ends; I applaud Jo for realizing this and resisting the urge to hand everything over with a big bow.

:)

43foggidawn
Aug 19, 2008, 4:19pm Top

Chapter 36 notes: Mine and Bib's are almost identical. I'm posting mine as I wrote them, knowing there's huge overlap.

1) Narcissa -- a mother's protection again. (Contrast Lily, Narcissa, Molly.)

2) Poor Hagrid!

3) Too bad for you, Griphook! GO NEVILLE!

4) Kreacher! YESSS!!!

5) Molly Weasley ROCKS!

6) "Severus Snape wasn't yours" -- Huzzah! And don't you forget it!

7) Expelliarmus again! It really is Harry's signature move. Hey, who was it that suggested, during dueling lessons, that they should first learn to disarm their opponent? Why, I do believe it was . . . yes . . . Severus Snape!

8) Luna shows herself to be extremely perceptive once again.

9) "Really gives a feeling for the scope and tragedy of the thing, doesn't it?" -- this line always makes me laugh out loud.

10) Headmaster portraits -- Snape should have been there. (I know we discussed this earlier, but this is where I put the note about it.)

44biblioholic29
Aug 19, 2008, 6:47pm Top

KIK! That really was close to identical! So much for original thought!

4506nwingert
Aug 19, 2008, 7:58pm Top

Last summer I brought my copy of DH with me to school becuase I wasn't satisifed and I wanted to re-read it until I was satisified. I just finished my re-read for the group discussion before I left for college, so hopefully I've remembered some of my notes. Anyway, here they are (in no particular order):

1) Mrs. Weasley pwning Bella= AWESOME
2) Motherly love comes into play many times in these last few chapters. Is Jo giving us some parental tips here? Is she showing what she would do in any of these circumstances via her characters?
3) The Remus Lupin line, "I was trying to make a better world for him." Again, is this Jo's parental instincts coming through here?
4) King's Cross scene: FINALLY, we learn EVERYTHING!
5) Ron's and Peeves' lines make me laugh
6) Luna's line does the same thing.
7) The parallel ending between books 1 and 7; in SS, Harry goes into the Forest, meets V, and later, DD tells Harry that he must keep fighting to keep evil at bay. In DH, Harry goes into the Forest, meets V, and lives to triumph over evil! Also, it was his mother's love that kept him alive both times.

46compskibook
Aug 19, 2008, 9:07pm Top

28.6 Monologuing!

32 Technically, Harry had to struggle a little, but he pretty much stole Draco's wand. It still worked for him.

42 I like it too, Bib. It didn't answer everything, but it gave us a good look into a lot of characters' lives.

43 Snape Rocks!

One thing I was disappointed in with the epilogue is that I always felt Harry would end up teaching at Hogwarts. He did so great teaching everyone in the DA and has always talked about how Hogwarts is his home. I figured he would teach DADA for awhile and then become headmaster. The only reason I can think of for him not being there is maybe professors can't be married.

47foggidawn
Aug 19, 2008, 9:13pm Top

Notes on the Epilogue:

1) Scorpius? Honestly.

2) "Albus Severus, you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew." Well, I think you can probably guess how I feel about that. ;-) Sev!

3) I just love the epilogue. I know some people think it reads like fanfic, but I'm a sucker for a happy ending.

48biblioholic29
Aug 20, 2008, 8:24am Top

46.32: Yeah, but Harry had to physically steal the wand out of Malfoy's hand, what Grindelwald did is so much more passive, it just doesn't seem right to me.

49littlegeek
Aug 20, 2008, 10:04am Top

OK, speaking of Grindelwald, here's another headscratcher. Why does Voldy even need to go see Grindelwald at all? He's seen Gregorovich's memory of Grindelwald snitching the wand, he sees the picture of DD & Grindelwald together, everyone knows that DD bested Grindelwald (it's on his frog card for crissakes) so why even bother to interview Grindy? He doesn't need his confirmation to know that it was the Elder Wand. Then Grindy just lies anyway.

Could have saved Voldy some time. Or hell, why doesn't he just read Rita's book? Surely some minion must have.

50foggidawn
Aug 20, 2008, 10:40am Top

Maybe Voldy, unlike Harry, has the sense to dismiss Rita's book entirely! ;-)

51pollysmith
Aug 21, 2008, 7:53am Top

#46> Harry might have wanted to teach but I think it was more important to him to become the head of the aurors to make sure that no seriosly dark wizard could rise again

The thing about the elder wand, you all got me confused but I don't have time to work it out right now

yeah! Molly!
Yeah! Neville!

52Mandy2
Aug 21, 2008, 9:45am Top

Do we know where they're devided this book for the movie? I think Shell Cottage would be a good place, because it's a slow point right before the action but has action right before it too.

53biblioholic29
Aug 21, 2008, 10:08am Top

As far as I know, nothing has come out as to where they're dividing it. Where in Shell Cottage would you stop it? Right after Harry apparates back and Dobby dies? After the burial? I agree that shell cottage would be a good place, but where exactly? I'm not sure?

54littlegeek
Aug 21, 2008, 10:41am Top

What about when Ron leaves? That's a good cliffhanger. Maybe too soon in the narrative, tho. There's so much that goes on in the last few chapters.

55biblioholic29
Aug 21, 2008, 10:49am Top

Yeah, I think that's probably a little too early, it's not even halfway into the book. Maybe when Harry breaks the Taboo would be good, you know? Harry says "Voldemort", Ron yells "No" and then we hear people outside and the voice telling them to surrender...

56Mandy2
Aug 21, 2008, 11:16am Top

I was thinking after the funeral, depressing but would allow for the second movie to have a good lead in before the final fight...which really should take a while.

57lefty33
Aug 21, 2008, 10:42pm Top

Just wanted to say I'm here lurking but I've hardly had a moment to sit still for the past 8 days, so I have no notes! It's been fun to read all your thoughts -- it's great that you're all so interesting. ;)

58picolina
Aug 22, 2008, 6:03pm Top

Ok, so I had a bit of catching up to do but I'm here. Hehehe, it is funny to read all your thoughts on the book.... mine were pretty much the same.

I do wonder when the movie would be divided.... I agree that Shell Cottage might be a good place... but what about right after they escape from Gringott's, although maybe that would be a bit too late?

59lefty33
Aug 23, 2008, 3:39pm Top

I wanted to add that I also liked the epilogue. I think it was perfect for the books. Harry got what he had always wanted: A normal life. The wizard world was as normal as it could be. Anything else would have felt like random pieces of information stashed into one place.

60littlegeek
Aug 23, 2008, 6:53pm Top

Im so sad there's no Harry chapters to read this weekend. It was so fun discussing all the details big & small with you people. You rock!

61foggidawn
Aug 23, 2008, 8:12pm Top

I know, LG! I'm sad, too! I'm looking forward to whatever we discuss next, but it won't be quite the same.

62kirbyowns
Aug 23, 2008, 11:10pm Top

Well, you can always do another reread discussion. ;)

63pollysmith
Aug 24, 2008, 10:31am Top

I was thinking that too! Maybe during the winter......hey we could compare the books too the movies!......maybe?

64picolina
Aug 25, 2008, 3:16pm Top

That's a great idea Polly! I was just thinking that there's so many things that are missing in the movies (of course, not everything can be included!)

65pollysmith
Aug 25, 2008, 5:50pm Top

thanks (blush)

66bevvo63
Edited: Nov 19, 2008, 11:34am Top

re: message 23 : naked? Master Radcliffe has done it on stage!

6706nwingert
Mar 31, 2009, 11:20am Top

I had a theory about the naming of characters in the epilogue . We know that Jo used to teach French and incorporates it into the series (i.e. Voldemort= "flight from death," etc.) We also know that Jo has taken cues from other authors. Given that, my theory is that the names Victoire and Hugo are an ode or homage or recognition of French author Victor Hugo (who happens to be one of my favorites). Victoire is the feminine version of Victor.

68foggidawn
Mar 31, 2009, 12:04pm Top

Interesting, but I thought she explained Victoire's name by saying that Victoire was born nine months after the final battle with Voldemort. Of course, it could be both -- or she could have added "Hugo" to coincide with Victoire after she decided upon that name for Fleur and Bill's daughter.

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