Why do you like or dislike ebooks (or ebook devices)?

My boyfriend and I both prefer ebooks over physical books and use our mini-tablets to view PDF ebooks whenever possible. Since we live in a 900 square foot apartment, there is minimal space for shelves, no matter how creative we get. And then there's the fact that the ebook readers are self-illuminating for late-night reading sessions...

The one problem I have is that I can't easily change the font size. Some of those fonts are tiny, and it gives me headaches to squint at them! Still, I don't think I'll ever go back to paper books if I can help it.

But I know that many people don't like ebooks, and I'm curious to know why. Is it problems with the devices themselves? The amount of computer knowledge you need? Does it seem like you're not really getting anything when you buy an ebook vs. a physical book?

What if someone made the perfect ebook reader - would you use it, or is there something about paper and ink that is just better?

I have read ebooks, but I would much rather have a physical book in my hands. It has nothing to do with the devices or computer knowledge; I simply like holding the books. There's something about curling up with a book and turning the pages. Scrolling down a page just doesn't have the same effect.

In a word, eyestrain.

I like the book in my hand.

I can't even read books on my PC. LOL I've tried. Too much for my eyes, I guess.

I prefer books, but I read a lot of ebooks because I am....poor.

WholeHouseLibrary adores ebooks, I bet he makes an appearance soon.

I HATE ebooks. I don't hate people who read them, though - just wanted to clarify.

I'm a total pack rat; I collect everything. It took me years to switch from DVDs. Plus, I love them. I love the way they look and smell. Books are pretty. Which is why I'm broke.

I've never read an e-book... I am quite "touch" oriented, and enjoy holding my book, petting my book, riffling its pages and affectionately dog-earing it (only when my SO isn't looking!)...

I also may be prejudiced as I work in a book design environment, and enjoy knowing that how a book looks can be as wonderful as the words themselves...

I love physical books. It makes me happy just to look at my shelves and remember all the stories contained within the pretty volumes. So I guess it makes sense that I can't stand ebooks. The concept is okay, but reading on a screen gives me headaches and I get distracted too easily on the computer. I can't even read fanfiction on the computer, despite how highly my friends recommend it, because my head just hates the screen. I'll be sticking with print for those reasons.

I'm about halfway converted to digital reading. I don't read paper newspapers anymore. Haven't for five years. I'm down to a couple of magizine subscriptions and I can see going to electronoc reading for those in the next year or so. Reference works, I like digital. Text books, I could convert to digital because a lot of things are made clearer with animation or short clips. Updates are a lot easier to get to the users.

But when it comes to books, fiction and non-technical non-fiction. I still prefer a physical book because of tactile feelings and the ease of not rebooting or taking time to find where I left off. Just remove the bookmark and start in. Plus, one can buy a lot of books for the price of buying and rebuying to upgrade reading devices and the batteries to power them. I have yet to see an one hundred year-old reading device or one on the market with a hundred year guarantee on the hard drive or whatever else is used to store the book. Most books have no problem lasting a hundred years or longer and the contents don't have to be copied from one memory device to another as the technology changes in a never ending cycle.

I read and enjoy e-books, but solely on my computer. No hand-held devices for me; I'm not nearly devoted enough for that sort of commitment.

I like them because they're good for slow periods at work. I'm in a very public area, so I can't whip out a physical book whenever there are no students. E-books give me something to do when I don't feel like browsing the internet.

I do find them more difficult to concentrate on, though; something about the backlight on the monitor, I think. All that glowing whiteness... I find it difficult to gauge my progress through the book, too. I like to be able to see how much I've got left, and to easily flip around if I want to reread something that happened earlier. I also like to underline passages that I find particularly true, and that's impossible with e-books.

I love to annotate as I read. You can't annotate an e-book unless you use the post-it note feature. It's just not the same.

I too also like the feel of a book in my hands too.

A physical book is completely self-contained. All you need is you and the book. They can go anywhere, without batteries, and produce negligible EM radiation. If you buy used, they're very cheap. When you're done with the book, you can keep it to give to your children, or sell it, or donate it to another who may read it in the future. A tossed paperback is much less problematic for the environment than a busted PDA.

Please put me on the “I like to touch my books” list. ;-)

I like the look, the feel, and the smell, plus I have enough electronic gadgetry in my life; books are an escape from all that overly glorified technology.

And I hadn’t thought about it until I read littlegeeks post, but I too like to look at my books on their shelves. Not only are they great reminders of the words inside (or great references in many cases), I can often remember where I bought them, or perhaps recall a found memory of some place where I read a particular book, like on a camping trip for instance.

I would also add that books are very durable. I usually take a book with me everywhere I go. I can toss a book around, sit on it, drop it, et cetera, without it breaking. Do any of the aforementioned with an e-book reader, and you won’t be reading books for a while--not to mention you’ll be a couple of hundred dollars poorer.

I'm a book person.

But more by default than conscious choice. I could concivably be converted to ebook, but I suspect I'll always prefer the physical object. ebooks seem a lot more fuss than a simple book. I like bookshops and there's always amazon or whoever if you can't find what you want to read physically. That said, ebooks probably do have their place, and 700+pages can be far more comfortably carried in a PDA than as a hefty tome.

I have been working with computers as a medium for over 15 years now. "In the beginning" it was "multimedia" - mostly educational stuff (not the way it was done in the US - I remember seeing that and thinking "OMG, poor bastards"...) and installations for museums and corporate reception areas.
I really really have doted on about every fad there was, techwise. But... no. I love the way books smell, feel, and physically impact on my environment - I love having a library!

Also, as I sit by the computer most of my working hours, plus more, I need to get away from the screen. The backlight kills my eyes. Printed type on paper is just the right amount of contrast.

I even print reports, specs, etc. to read them.
I don't buy audiobooks because I don't consider them "books", so I'm really orthodox about this.

Reference works is nice to have online, though.

But everyone to their own.

I rarely read e-books. Kinda loves to take a seat in the coach or in bed, with a good book. And it's difficult to do so with a big computer.

#16 I don't consider audiobooks 'books' either. I have no idea why. But the idea always pissed me off.

That being said, I can certainly understand the appeal, especially for busy people. If I ever have kids, I may have to convert to save time. Which is probably why I don't want to reproduce.

#18 - I manage to read quite a lot despite having a son; wether you got the time needed is more up to your partner than to having a kid - do he/she support your reading habits, or not ;-)

Of course I'd read more if I didn't have a kid, but being a parent is a reward in itself!

Great topic. I suspect e-books will continue to grow, but I think we are a looong ways off from seeing electronic texts impacting the prnt world the way digital music has apparently dealt a significant blow to the music CD market. There are many cultural issues that have helped drive down CD sales.

#10 The Ghost makes good points for the continued obsolence of hardware devices. Optimum e-text appearance/readibility (italics/bold, columns) will always have to be sacrificed to lowest common denominator, cross-platform protability. So ASCII texts have limited appeal.
#13 Monohex makes good points about environmental impact. (someone would need to compare total footprint/impact of printed publishing world to digital device world, hmm).

I think the general ease of being able to use books in variety of places and postures, holding it in your hands and not having glare and visual issues will have most people still finding using a book more comfortable than some form of e-book.

In my profession (programming on large systems) I always set my screen settings to black font on white background, like a book, rather than green font on black background

I've never used ebooks, but I really hate reading from my computer. Too much glare. And the smell of books would be hard to give up.

I do enjoy listening to books on my iPod. BUT, it all depends upon the reader. A bad reader can ruin an otherwise great book. Conversely, a great reader can give the book added nuance. It can be really intriguing to listen to a book after you've already read it and formed your own impressions. But then again, sometimes the reader's take on the character is different, that can be annoying. I'm having that problem at the moment listening to Framley Parsonage; I don't think this reader really "gets" Miss Dunstable. I see her as more Dorothy Parker--knowing, sardonic--but this reader must think she's kind of a ditz.

While I am firmly in the camp of those who prefers physical books to text on a computer screen or a handheld device, ebooks to have their good qualities. I work in tech support, and there are days when I only answer a few calls per day. And since I'm the kind of person who can't stand having nothing to do, ebooks are very useful. I can read without looking like a total slacker.

That being said, if I read an ebook that I like I do feel compelled to pick up a physical copy.

I still read hard copy books - but I always have an e-book going on my palm tungsten t3 (which I've had for 5 yrs.) I have almost 100 books on the memory card, and it's still only 65% full. The device recharges every night. I can book mark any page, make notations, change font sizes, highlight any word and do a dictionary lookup, search for words of phrases... and when I turn it on, it brings up the page that I left off at.

... and my book fits nicely in my pocket - to be read anywhere, anytime, any lighting.. !!

...but still - memory cards can't provide that "library" feeling, can they?!
:-)

#24. No Busifer, they can't.

Sony makes an ebook reader that's supposed to be pretty good. However, a price tag of $300 AFTER the price drop in addition to format restrictions and pricing of the ebooks, themselves, prevents me from buying that particular piece of hardware right now.

I do like the heft and feel of a book, but could easily be swayed to an ebook for certain things, especially considering the Sony reader is not backlit and is supposed to be much easier on the eyes. However, an ebook for something where I'd like to be able to flip around for reference would not work for me and neither would a good amount of the non-fiction stuff I read, since I'm one of those crazies that is known to write notes in the margins.

The Sony Reader actually sucks, if you're talking about this one:

http://www.learningcenter.sony.us/assets/itpd/reader/

The display is nice, but it has a major problem...

My friend Cliff had it for a day and promptly returned it. He found out that he can't really read PDFs. It does display them, but it scales the entire page to fit on that little screen! It only really "reads" the proprietary Sony format (whatever that is.)

I use a Nokia 770 as both a word processor and ebook reader. I don't think I'll ever buy a dedicated ebook reader because they're too expensive, and they have crappy DRM attached to them.

I do prefer ebooks, but I am totally sick of crippled DRM technology! They make you buy a different format for every device! I only buy PDFs, which limits my selection for fiction; however, most of the whitepapers I need are PDFs anyway.

DRM is definitely an issue. There are situations when an ebook would be just fine by me (work related topics, mostly) but I rather wait and see which format wins - I have seen one "proprietary" technology too much and am fed up with being restricted.
A book is a book!

BTW I think pdf sucks. I really don't want to use such harsh words, but this is really how I feel. Too often they are used by control freaks who don't understand that no, I do NOT want to download a 450 MB guideline document/the format handles graphics in a real bad way, which is the opposite of what you'd expect from Adobe - or, maybe not...

#27 greenlion: "Nokia 770" Ah, thanks, I meant to ask what you use for ebooks. *Scooting off to search for Nokia 770*

I don't think I'll ever switch to e-books. I've never even listened to an audiobook. I prefer the feel of a book, the heft of it in my hands, the way the paper feels as I turn the pages, the smell of the ink, paper and glue. It's the same reason why I love browsing in bookstores so much and prefer visiting a store to ordering online - there is no match for the feeling of being surrounded by thousands of books, millions of pages, all clamoring to be plucked from the shelves, caressed, browsed, purchased, read and enjoyed. I can't imagine getting similar stimulation from an e-book or audiobook.

Secondarily, I work in IT and spend most of my day either at a computer or on my Blackberry, so the last thing I want to do is read a book on an electronic device.

#30 I work in publishing, so if I felt the same way you do (about my job) I'd never be able to read again *is scared*

Oh, and now I want to go to a bookstore, even though I went yesterday. I blame you entirely.

i've never tried an ebook but the feel of a book in your hand is such a pleasure! I'd be sad if physical books disappeared

#29: The 770 is great, but Nokia no longer supports it. They have a new-and-improved version but they're on a cell-phone schedule. When customers complained about the 770 support being dropped, they said, "It's 1.5 years old! They're practically ancient devices!"

Also, in their half-assed Linux distro, Maemo, they refuse to open-source some parts of their OS. The parts with bugs in them, like the file manager barfing on file names with, say, ampersands and quotes. It would only take 10 minutes to make a patch!

It's too bad that they are part of the customer service landslide; I had higher expectations of them.

(And now, back to the regularly scheduled program...)

#33 greenlion: "cell-phone schedule" -- well put! The rate at which electronic devices are obsoleted is amazing. With cell-phones it's probably a deliberate ploy to get consumers upgrading the hardware on a shorter-cycle than the service agreements. All about locking in that steady revenue. Wonder how the iPhone will play out in that regard, since it's much higher priced, etc.

I have an old HP LX200 Palmtop, essentially a DOS PC about 6"x3". Embedded DOS, Lotus 123, Quicken apps, plus others. IT was a real PC in your hand, with QWERTY keyboard, etc.
See this linkhttp://www.palmtoppaper.com/default.asp

HP should have kept that form-factor and beefed it up to 386/486/Pentium CPU status. I still use it as my digital address book, portable clock, running log, and even keep DOS-based Turbo Pascal and Turbo C programming environments on it. I should turn it into an e-book reader/repository.

How about a compromise; an electronic book that looks like a book and has pages that you can turn but the content of each page is downloaded from a computer. You would need only a few of these, with different page sizes.

The technology for electronic "paper" exists.

I use ebooks on my laptop for throwaway fiction - things I know I will never read again. Fiction that is silly or just popcorn, and you know you will not keep - just like I know there are TV series I will never want to see more than once - I don't purchase those on DVD.

cad_lib, I remember those. My dad had something like it, and I wanted one so bad. The iPhone has a nice display, 281 dpi, better than my Nokia.

But did you know they don't allow 3rd party applications? So if it would make a good ebook reader, the world may never know. We'd have to wait around for Apple to release something and it would probably be DRM-ed up.

darrow, I've wanted a book with electronic paper since I was a kid. I thought it would be the perfect solution to store your library in a single book so you could read anything you want.

An electronic book that you could write on would be great for me since I take a lot of notes and highlight stuff, scribble equations, etc. Durability is probably an issue, though, isn't it? I have no idea how electronic paper would compare to real paper in how much abuse it can take.

I have read ebooks downloaded from the library when my hold limit for hard copies was reached or they didn't have the book in "book" format.

I resent having to sit in front of my computer to read it. I like to haul my books around with me and read whenever there is a free moment (which makes me like paperbacks, the old regular size, best).

I'm old and somewhat afraid of technology so I haven't ventured into the device world yet. My cell phone is seven years old and I use a Sony walkman (and my car cd player) to listen to my audio books. I just get overwhelmed by all the choices.

Edit for syntax...

I like the look and feel of a real book, and can do without the ebook eyestrain.
Plus the reader I use for real books will never be obsolete...

I've tried reading ebooks on my PC before, but quickly gave up. I really can't stand reading anything longer than a few pages on screen.

I've been tempted to try an ebook reader, having heard that it's much different from reading on a monitor, but probably won't anytime soon.

Advantages I see to ebooks:
- Portability. I read on the go, and with an ebook reader I can carry many books, and thick books, without being weighted down.
- Environmental concerns? Frankly, though, I'm not really convinced that electronic devices are all that much better than paper in this respect.

Disadvantages I see:
- Like a lot of people here, I just plain like the look and feel of a physical book.
- An ebook reader is yet another pricey electronic gadget that could get lost or stolen. I've never heard of anyone getting mugged for paperback.
- Expense. The reader is expensive, and copyrighted books are expensive. I'm not going to pay for an ebook when I can get a real book for around the same price, or even less.
- I don't have to worry about masses of my real books becoming unreadable because the formatting is obsolete.
- If ebooks ever became dominant, it would be the end of the used book trade. Not only do I love being able to afford more books due to the used trade, it also means I can collect books that have gone out of print. With electronic publishing, once a publisher decides not to sell a work, it's simply not legally available.

I am wondering if the Kindle does not qualify as an "ebook" device.

I like real books, I have several hundred of them in my home and I love each and every one of them, mostly.

But I have pretty bad arthritis in my hands and can not easily hold a big book to read in bed as I am accustomed to do. So I bought my Kindle. I love it. It is easy on my eyes (also not as good as they were when I was younger); I can change the font when I am tired; I have taken it to France and back and read in it every day; I find it very easy to read and I love the lesser expense of buying Kindle books. I've listened to some of the criticism but it has not bothered me that I can't send it to a friend. If I want to lend a book to a friend, I'll lend the Kindle. If it is to a friend, I'll get it back. The lack of some books in Kindle...oh, well,....many books are not in the bookstores I frequent also.

Yes, it does not smell like a book, but it is frequently less heavy.

I still have books. I like photographs in books. I don't buy those in Kindle. I recently purchased Wolf Hall in a real book because I wanted the heft of it and to be able to easily see how much more I must read before my book group will discuss it.

OK

I am done.

I prefer "real" books, but I do have an e-book reader program (Stanza) loaded on my iPod Touch and I've downloaded a few free books for emergencies like yesterday when I got on the bus and realized I'd left my paper book at home! O, the horror!

I am sure at some point I'll have to get a proper e-reader, but I'm in no rush.

I love real books. I love the feel, the smell, the look, and the lastingness. For example, I took my old copy of Jane Eyre to lit class this week with me. So far I have notes from three different sources scattered throughout, so when I was teaching the book this morning I could remember and augment my instruction with things I learned previously. You just can't get that same effect with eBooks.

However....

I like to read in bed, lying on my side. I like to read as I walk across my windy campus. I like to have books for every mood with me at all times. I like instant access to my all-time favourite books. I like to read at stoplights. I like to read in the dark. So, I like eBooks as well as real ones. I have about 200 eBooks loaded in various programs on my iPod, and doing this has increased my "fun" (ie, not for a grade) reading amazingly. Anymore I just never know when I'll have reading time, so it's nice to always be prepared.

I think that too many people are limiting themselves by subscribing to a one-or-the- other-and- never-the-twain- shall-meet point of view. Sometimes real books are the best way to go, other times eBooks hold a clear advantage. It's just a case of recognizing what will be best for the moment, and acting accordingly.

I have arthritis in my thumbs. Holding a physical book open hurts. Besides, I've run out of shelf space. I've therefore loved ebooks since I first discovered them some 7 or 8 years ago.

And I love my sony touch which lets me annotate, bookmark, and carry tons of ebooks wherever I go. I can still use a small purse cuz the Sony fits into it.

Isn't that arthritis in the thumbs a drag! Makes many things more difficult. Amazing how much we actually do need our opposing thumbs.

Since this thread started, the Kindle and its clones have arrived - which, with digital ink, removes (at least for me) all issues of eye strain.

I use my Kindle almost exclusively now... I like that to read a Kindle book, I am not chopping down a tree, nor requiring a large distribution system to waste oil moving dead plant material from the forest, to a paper mill, to a book printer, to a book distribution center, to me.

I have one issue, though: for some reason, I don't "feel" that a copy of an e-book I own is 'part of my library' - so I don't enter these in my LT collection.

#46 And if only they weren't always in opposition, but could just get along now and then, think how much we could get done! :D

Would not want too much "group think" among our digits.

I cannot stand ebooks. I'm more of an old fashioned person... I just love snuggling down with a fat book, my favorite blanket, in my most comfy chair, with a hot chocolate on a rainy day. There is nothing like it. Try doing that with in ebook just isn't the same.
Plus, I get such a lovely feeling inside when I look at all my full bookshelves. The feel of a book is incomparable to an ebook. I mean, WHO doesn't love buying a brand new book and feeling the crisp, new pages? Ebooks just seem so...cold...unfeeling. Just another computer file. Books are special.

have you ever tried with an ebook? I don't get how everyone 'curls up' or 'snuggles up' with a book and 10 accouterments just to read. Can you just sit down and read without the production? I also don't get how emotional people get about wood pulp. It's nearly anthropomorphic. Feel and smell of paper? How about those papercuts and the mildew-ey smell of old paperbacks...the same?

I don't feel much about either medium. It's the knee-jerk, extreme, divisiveness that interests me. I wonder if those people still cling to their 8-tracks, too.

A little testimonial: I snuggle up in my bed, with my puppy pressed against my side, and read happily in my Kindle all the time. Age has reduced the ability of my nose to smell subtle stuff so I do not miss the smell of books.

>51 Bookmarque: I don't know anyone who still uses their 8 tracks, but I know some who still swear by their vinyl albums.

I think it's a similar situation with paper books - for some of us a paper book is just more aesthetically pleasing than an electronic reader. It's like eating food off paper plates on a tv tray or getting out the good china and eating by candle light. Some people couldn't care either way, but others find their enjoyment enhanced by a nicer atmosphere. I can't really explain it better than that. Things that please the senses and emotions kind of defy rational explanations.

I guess so, but the vehemence and mindless emotionality of it all is just weird to me. Do people feel this way about their silverware? Their dining room tables? I doubt it. I like my books, but I don't wrap my identity in them the way some seem to. If suddenly wood pulp books were no longer made, I wouldn't cry, but the rending of clothing and gnashing of teeth of others would probably resound mightily.

I still play my vinyl, but haven't scorned the iPod. it allows me to enjoy more of my music more of the time. Why ereaders can't be viewed the same way is strangely illogical.

I love books - real paper books. I have converted one bedroom to a library. I've been reading them since... well, for a very long time.

I first tried e-books because they were more portable. I could carry half a dozen in my purse. They went to work, on vacation... anywhere and everywhere..cool!

But time was not my friend.... now, arthritis makes it hard to hold a book sometimes. Some of the really big books that I love... I just can't any more. But my e-books are all the same lovely portable size, no matter how many words they have.

I read on my Palm device, not a dedicated e-reader. I still prefer real books, but I like to have the e-book, too.

I admit that I'm a little disturbed by talk of the end of paper, but I think it's more than emotionality, and it's a little different than changes in audio/visual technology. Music recordings have always been subject to vagrancies in technology because they are tied to the device needed to read them.

With paper books, you have a format that has been stable for centuries and doesn't require a device. With ebooks we're getting to a place where written material is subject to technological obsolescence. We are also getting into a situation where you effectively rent the content of a book rather than buying a copy. There's more control that way at the publisher and distributer end.

What I'm saying is, that while I like paper, my bigger concern is that more of our knowledge and literature could end up lost down the memory hole in an all electronic environment.

Co-existence of paper and electronic formats -- I'm all for that, but I think that there could be serious issues if ebooks become the dominant format. I can't help but be sympathetic to the people who enjoy books as artifacts, but when I read posts like yours I fear that that discussion detracts from other issues.

I agree that the lack of long-lasting "hard copies" of some written materials is an interesting, and perhaps disturbing, challenge. I am aware of how much "history" changes from decade to decade and usually additional original source material helps anchor the writing of history in some reality. When items such as hand written letters, hand written journals, first drafts of articles, novels, and books are all not available because its all on some form of technology it does raise issues of "what-if" - what if the power needed to run computers is priced out of reach of ordinary people? what if later versions do not read earlier software versions?

If the energy need to run computers is not affordable - then it is pretty unlikely that the energy used to transfer huge heavy wads of paper around will be viable, either....

Give you can make a low power solar device of the former, but the latter is a bit harder.

Could go back to ships, though! :)

ah ha! word of mouth; passing books around in the dark of night, in abandoned alleys....sounds like the beginnings of a novel.

Curiously how my opinion both has and hasn't changed in the 2.5yrs since my posting in this thread back at #15.

I'm now an ebook person. I prefer reading them on my Sony505 than in paper. But I still like bookshops, and I don't like the fuss of finding an ebook version. And I was definetly correct about the 700pg issue. The e-readers today are very good for linear fiction reading. I'm not uyet convinced they're ideal for non-fiction brousing reading. I still buy pbooks because I enjoy shoppping in bookshops. I just wish I could buy the ebooks there! Many they ought to offer an SDcard 'burn' facility so can brouse and wander amoungt the shelves, but come away with the book in a sensible format.

I can see myself now buying a few special hardcover books to keep, which I'd never have done before ebooks - no space.

I love how people's opinions change.

I have a friend who swore, in about 2000, he'd never EVER have a computer at home. He had no use for them, they were rubbish, etc etc.
He and his wife now have a desktop and each has a laptop, and they have broadband. She's from France and can keep in touch with her relatives, he has discovered that wow, having a computer is the Bomb!

Same with ebooks (and cell phones - from another thread) I think. Until you actually use the tech, you won't really know what you think of it. Sometimes the tech doesn't work for you, sometimes you learn that it offers you pluses (like large type you can read and many books you can carry) that the old tech doesn't. Sometimes the pluses aren't enough to for you to change your ways.

Whatever, it's all good. I'm all for options and choices, whenever we can have them.

I've tried reading books on my computer and I find it not at all acceptable. Keeping my finger on the mouse to move down the pages restricts me to one position which is uncomfortable after time.

I love reading in the tub, especially in the winter. I sometimes doze off which would be disastrous for a Kindle if it fell in. A book I could just replace.

Electronics do not last forever. There is a planned obsolescence in electronic devices that concerns me. If a Kindle or other reading device dies, the books saved on it are gone, kaput, adios. If I read a book and love it enough to give it shelf space, I know that it will not become obselete and, short of a house fire, will be there waiting until I want to pick it up again.

I am also in that club of people finding holding books open tough on my thumbs. I have resigned myself to reading hard covers and trade paper backs that can stay open with little effort.

I thought hard about asking my family for a Kindle for Christmas and came to the conclusion that I didn't want one yet. The time may come but I'm sticking with paper books for now.

Mamzel - the Kindle is quite different from what you may be thinking it is.

Reading a Kindle is not at all like reading on a computer. The experience is entirely different - from the size of the device, to the technology used to display the words, it is different enough as to be fairly called "not the same thing at all".

Further, the books do not die. If Amazon.com dies, AND your device dies, yes, you lose your books. But both would have to happen. Even if you worry about that, Kindle can host the 'read once, get rid of them' books we all read.

Again, if your Kindle breaks, you just re-download all your books - you don't have to pay for them again.

I would not read a Kindle in the tub, or use any electronic device in the tub. My wife, also a Kindle fan, has a small set of 'tub books' for tub-reading time.

I love books, I love reading books, the physicality of it, turning pages, I don't need software to read them, etc, etc, everything people say, I agree with it all. But for lots of reasons, I also really, really like the idea of ebooks and ebook readers.

It's still in it's infancy, though. The technology, the features, the marketing, everything is brand new and frankly I think it's all pretty crap. So, I like the idea, but I'll wait until they've figured a few more things out before I join the party.

but I'll wait until they've figured a few more things out before I join the party

This is how I feel too. I am a gadget freak, so I really, really, really want a Nook/Kindle/Sony Reader. But, I hate DRM more than I like gadgets. So for now, I'll read what ebooks I already have on my computer where I control what happens to them. When I feel comfortable with the state of ebook sales, and I mean sales not rental, and when I am more assured of file format compatibility, then I'll seriously consider plunking down such a sizable chunk of change on an e-reading device.

And, when and if I ever get such a gadget, it will be used in the tub.

If you don't mind breaking a bad law, it's not hard to break DRM. Not that I've actually done it, but it's easy to do if you're so inclined. And I've yet to come across a title that can't be read on my Kindle, it reads many formats.

I have heard of people putting their Kindles into ziplocks for tub reading.

I expect if I tried to put my kindle in a zip lock bag for tub reading, I'd probably still drop it in and find I'd not really sealed the zip lock. hehehehe

No, really, I don't take mine to the tub although I've caught myself thinking about it....

I love my Kindle! And I agree, it is definitely not like reading on the computer. I have to get off the computer from time to time due to something called visual migraines but I have never had that issue with the Kindle. Reading it is totally different.

This has been a very interesting thread. Especially when you (me) are just now reading it and finding how views have changed or stayed the same.

I like pbooks, and will for a time. I love the feel of them and that I can throw it down when I need to move on. I'm too afraid to buy a Kindle/Nook/Sony. I'm too clumsy to buy something that expensive. I'm actually suprised my laptop has lasted this long... (knocks on wood)

I just don't want anyone to think for any reason that "electronics" and "bathtub" are two things that should ever go together. Even if you try plastic baggies. It's just not worth the risk.

If you want to read in the tub, purchase a couple of real books for that purpose, that you save for reading only at tub-time.

I agree JPB, totally. I actually usually only take magazines into the tub. They I can toss out with very little sorrow after they've taken a dive.

It's not just about the reading, it's about the owning too.

I can't imagine not having bookshelves full of all the wonderfully varied volumes I've liberated from the depths of book shops or smiled at finding on the doormat, but I can imagine (almost) never actually reading from them if I had a good enough alternative.

That's already the situation with music. Once CD's are on my ipod I rarely listen to them any other way, but I can't quite feel comfortable yet with download only albums (except recent Poxy Boggards that wasn't available elsewise)

I have read two books on my iphone, Freakanomics and Too Big to Fail. I love it because I ALWAYS have a book with me now.

73> It's not really an either/or thing, Graffotti. For example, I have over 3000 paper books, but I love my Kindle and I buy 30 to 50 percent of my new books in e-book format. I rarely replace a paper book with an e-book, but I also rarely buy a paper version of an e-book. I have lots of both, and I love both.

I have two e-books coming from Early Reviewers (yay, two books in a row!) - I've never read e-books before so my judgment is reserved for now. I 'collect' books - I love the covers, and the look of them all lined up, and the wealth of words spread about the place. But, hey, I can't argue that they save space!

I LOVE ebooks. I have an ebook reader - a Sony PRS-505 - and it's just great. What I like about ebooks:

-I like being able to carry tons of books with me at any one time. I'm the sort of reader who's usually jumping between several books at once, so it's nice having all my options with me, in something that takes up less space than a paper book would. It's *really* great for traveling.

-For me, I've found that reading off an e-ink screen actually strains my eyes less than paper. It's not backlit like a computer screen is - and my eyes are *definintely* less strained than when using a computer screen. It's very comfortable to read from, even for hours at a time.

What I don't like:
-Right now, a lot of the titles that I want to read aren't available as ebooks, which is frustrating. I'm hoping that in the future this will change.

-Ebook prices are a bit high for my liking as well, but again, I'm hoping this will eventually change.

-My public library system, though it DOES lend ebooks, is still only in the early stages of ebook lending, so there's not much option there. Then again though, this will (with luck!) change in time.

Still, I'm super-happy with my decision to go with ebooks. I absolutely love them!

Other than the bibliophilic its more than the text thing, a lot of the stuff I read probably isn't available in ebook format. I mean, why bother making an ebook version of, for example the Rays and the Initiations. Its not exactly going to sell like hotcakes, and its definitely not widely known.

I have long been lusting after a Kindle, and I'm sure I'll have one eventually. The things that appeal to me about it:

* the idea of traveling with hundreds or even thousands of books taking up the space in my luggage of a magazine;
* holding the relatively light device instead of the sometimes heavy tomes of longer books;
* being able to download quite a lot of free ebooks--all those classics that are out of copyright;
* knowing that if the device itself breaks or becomes obsolete, I'll be able to download my books again from Amazon--they aren't really gone.

Further, it has occurred to me that once a publisher makes a book available as an e-book, there's no reason for it to disappear. They never have to spend another cent on it--not typesetting, printing, binding, warehousing, shipping, taking returns, etc. They don't have to convince a bricks-and-mortar store to make room on the shelves. Eventually, many more books will be available a lot longer.

I'm planning to downsize as much as possible and move. I know there are certain books I'll never part with, but I'd be perfectly happy replacing a series of mystery paperbacks with Kindle versions. If I can keep my need for bookshelf space down to what I already own, I'd be thrilled. And I'll still be able to get "real" books from the library--as someone pointed out above, it's not an either/or proposition. The two methods of owning and reading books can coexist quite happily, I'm betting.

I would love an eBook reader, but I would wear out the page forward and page backward buttons within a month (I read very fast and I read a lot).

When they get one where the whole screen is in color and the controls are all touch-screen (except the power button), then I will probably get one. Until then, I have plenty of paper books to read.

A customer showed off her B&N Nook yesterday. I'm in love. Adding it to my list, right next to "iPad."

Although, I'll add to my earlier statements to reiterate that there is something of a "space/time continuum"-type element that eBooks lose. For example, when I'm stuck in a dry part of an eBook (ex. Dracula), it's hard to glance ahead and see how much I've to push through before the pace picks back up. (Solution: go to the bookstore and buy Dracula. Oh, the hardship!)

I also love printing out articles when I'm writing papers. It's easier for me to recall information when I can orient it on a page "so far" through the article. I'm just really bad about using virtual bookmarks.

On the other hand, when the power in my neighbourhood went out for hours the other night, it was nice to have a few hundred eBooks on my iPod to read. No power, no internet, no problem!

That's what candles are for. Besides, it's one of my pleasures to pass books I've enjoyed to others. You can't do that with an ebook.

You can't do that with an ebook.

I do it all the time, that way my dead tree books don't come back stained or torn.

When I first found out about e-books and e-readers I was excited, and I thought, "Yes! an Mp3 for books!". I still think they're an amazing idea. But I consider e-readers as an accessory, a tool that makes my hobby easier and will always fall short of a real book.

I'm one of those people who buys both hardcovers and paperbacks of the same book, who hunt for first printings and special editions. I like to preserve my investments, but some I have are kept together with duct tape. To me, the bend lines on a book spine tell as much a story as the lines and wrinkles on a person's face does. This is one of the major reasons why I often buy used books because sometimes I find scribblings or names or even letters hidden in their pages. It may sound cheesy but these things I feel connect me to all those who've read or even just held the book before me. I blush, but its the truth.

e-books lack these kinds of qualities, qualities that make reading and books special to me.

Besides, if I'm going to spend the kind of money e-books cost at the moment, I may as well have a physical copy that I can collect. I love having some of my library instantly accessible wherever I go in the compact form of an iTouch, but I still always have some kind of paper printed something or other on me.

I got a very basic e-reader (Sony's bottom of the line) because I thought it was a great way to make all those public domain materials available on-line more accessible. I never really liked reading them on a PC screen and printing them out and tossing them felt tedious, cumbersome, and wasteful. For that alone, I think it was worth the purchase.

My local library does have some new books available as e-books which I might try although I think my specs may be to limited. That's about the only DRM content I have any interest in since it fits the borrow / rent type of transaction (and my experience with their audiobook downloads has been pretty painless).

I'd have to wait until a more open and mature book format develops before I'd consider going the e-book route for most of my purchases.

Fleela - You loan your ereader to your friends? How generous!! What do you read when they have it? I understood that you download an ebook to one device and that's where it stays. How do you share it with your friends?

I understood that you download an ebook to one device and that's where it stays.

Only if you download or purchase books laden with DRM. I do not.

My understanding of DRMs (http://computer.howstuffworks.com/drm.htm) is that they are to protect the copyright of the published work. If you give someone a copy of an ebook, it is the same as copying a book and giving it away. While a person may have all the right intention of sharing with just one person, they can't expect that the next person won't also share it or upload it for everyone to help themselves. While it is perfectly legal to lend or give a purchased book it is not legal to upload a scanned book for all to read. This is to protect the authors, musicians, movie producers, and all others who work hard to produce a work for us to enjoy and receive payment for it. Even an entity like Google learned that they can't give away books to everyone even though they were given one copy.

Sorry to get on the soapbox about this but my daughter is a budding author and I am looking at this issue from her point of view.

I'll loan my digital copies, just like I loan my paper copies. Legally.

I don't know if I could ever enjoy books as much if I read them on a computer screen, and it's probably because my favorite smell in the world is that of a solid paper-leafed book. Especially older, musty ones. E-books could just never be the same. Not to mention I don't have a credit card, so downloading books would be a hassle, like music is.

But I do have to admit that I feel guilty about killing trees, being an environmentalist. Yay for recycled paper books!

I can't believe how many people like the smell of paper books, it's kind weird and disturbing. I would go ebook all the way, but I can't. There are to many problems with ebooks: drm restrictions, to expensive for what you get, geographical restrictions, format incompatibility, exclusive content (as with kindle). So I've out of necessity stayed with paper books for the most part.

>90 samlives2: If you have a bank account, you can get an ATM/debit card that functions just like a credit card except that you have to have money in your account to use it and you don't have to pay interest and be hounded for the rest of your life because of it. (*mini rant*)

But really, I use my debit card for everything: I don't have credit cards, hardly ever carry cash, and I write about three checks a year.

Plus, of course, there is a lot of free stuff out there for e-readers. All those classics out of copyright . . .

I like them both equally. I'm forever reading free ebooks at night on my phone before I fall asleep. I want either a Kindle or an Ipad so I can really feed my habit. Sometimes though I'll just crave good old-fashioned paper. I have never cared for the smell of old books though. I find it sort of pungent. Ebooks and paper books can happily co-exist side by side in my opinion. I welcome any technology that lets me access books I want immediately and lets me read even more than before.

My Kindle is one of the few things that kept me sane (relatively) in Iraq. For that reason alone, I'll always have it.

I still find it amusing that many people see this as an either or situation. As if you have a favorite food you can no longer eat anything else. Weird.

Old Sarge, that just makes me smile! I think of all the people who for whatever reason are just not near bookstores and know that they can carry a library with them. Cool. Bookmarque, I agree. I like my Kindle and use it frequently. There are many TBR books on it. I like my cheaper paperbacks, more expensive ones, and the hardback bound books too. I also read magazines and articles on the computer and in real life. There are so many ways to read and not enough time. I do not think buying an e-reader means one has to abandon all the other modes. Oh, I forgot, I also listen to books in my car now. A new addiction! Someday, soon, I'll learn to download some stuff on to my iPod. More to learn....

I still find it amusing that many people see this as an either or situation.

I agree. I have shelves overflowing with dead tree books. I also have gigabytes of books in neatly categorized folders on a hard drive. Both formats are successfully coexisting.

I do like my Kindle, especially for when I'm travelling - those books can weigh a ton, especially if you stock up for a long period of time! But mainly, unless the book weighs a lot, I buy books from a bookstore. I think it's just the experience of looking in a bookstore rather than searching online.
I'm also one for liking the smell and feel of the book rather than the e-device.

Indeed! The either/or thing is really weird. I prefer reading on my Kindle for various reasons but I remember how to purchase and use paper books, and I do so.

I also find it funny that people don't bother to find out anything about the device they profess to dislike, saying it would hurt their eyes to read a computer screen for so long, all the while not understanding the basic concept of e-ink. And these people claim to be readers.

I assume you are hinting at the fact that the Kindle screen is nothing like reading a computer screen. I get eye strain from too much screen time occasionally. I have never gotten even a hint of eye strain from my Kindle. It is very easy on the eyes and mine need pampering, so I would know.

Well it wasn't a hint, people don't seem to be able to do the least amount of research.

Claws back in Bookmarque!

I dislike e-books and computer-reader-thingies purely because they don't 'feel' right... Having a paper-and-print book in my hands is relaxing...

Reading the e-books and the little reader devices, feels too much like I'm busy doing article searches for my thesis all over again... having spent countless hours sourcing online journals has given me a mental block to reading electronic literature for 'recreation'

my 2c... call me weird...

It is, after all is said and done, a question of personal preferences and choice. Thank goodness for that!

Libraries and bookstores aren't going anywhere, and I'm sure e-books will be available from now on, so it's not like this needs to be some end-all debate that one side will win.

Actually, samlives2, those assumptions are just what makes the conversation interesting. Bookstores are closing their doors by huge numbers and those remaining open are frequently large chain stores with a very specific and limited inventory. Likewise, in the US of A with all the controversies over taxes and government spending, public libraries are also being closed, or only open on limited hours, and also, have very limited inventories. I do not know that all things for printed books is well, and good.

Before you call me a technophobe, I would like to say that my first computer was a Commodore 64 and the first programming course I took was on cards that were put in a computer that took up half a room. I have been using computers and technical gadgets for many years. And one of the things I have seen over and over and over again is how a new gadget is hyped as the best thing to come along since sliced bread and this will end all your problems and you haven't seen anything better than this. Then two or three years later that format is obselete and something even better is here. Examples of this include poor old Beta tapes, cassette tapes, floppy discs, video discs, etc.

In all of this, a book, once published, can be used even if better production methods are developed.

I am still on the shelf about an ereader. I try to imagine what it would be like to hold one to read. And I don't like the idea of fewer or no trips to a book store. I love book stores. Even browsing for regular books on Amazon is not as satisfying as visiting my local bookstore, talking with the staff, and looking over other people's shoulders to see what gems they have found.

Maybe I'll someday get a Kindle, but in the meantime, I like my books with pages.

Kindle owner, here: I go to bookstores quite regularly. I love them, too. I just buy fewer "dead tree" books, not none. Also, now I buy audio books, too.

" I try to imagine what it would be like to hold one to read"

If you're even vaguely interesed, many if not most retailers have display models for you to pick up, hold and read by. I really really suggest you do so. It's only when you've played with them in the flesh that you see how good (and bad) they are.

If only online bookshopping could be made anywhere near as plesant an experience as bricks and morter bookshops are. I'm beginning to really detest looking for more ebooks - despite much prefereing to read them.

I love eBook readers that fit in the hand. It's so cozy when curled up on the couch and you don't have to have both hands free to turn pages.

I also like having an entire library in one device. It's saved me multiple times on trips, when the book I started reading wasn't doing it for me and I needed to switch.

My primary e-reading device died recently, and I've been trying to decide what to get to replace it.

I love real, paper books and I own many. But I have arthritis in my hands, and sometimes I have trouble holding a book. (I have yet to figure out how I'm going to read Warriors!)

e-books have been a real help. It's not the same as reading a real book, but way better than not being able to read a book.

maggie1944: I guess I never really think of bookstores and libraries disappearing because there are so many libraries where I live and all I can remember is chain stores. The one non-chain store I knew of closed a few years ago, so I guess I see your point. It's just too much to think that books might be obsolete and unavailable one day.

I was in a Barnes & Noble yesterday. As soon as you walk in the door there was a kiosk/display for the Nook.

The employee manning the display was having a discussion with several customers and attempting to interest them in it with no success.

Out of curiosity I hovered within earshot. When asked about comparisons with other devices (Kindle, Ipad, etc.) this young man was clueless. All he could do was repeat verbatim how you can "loan" an e-book from one Nook to another. Of course he failed to mention that it has a time limit.

I was in uniform and had to restrain myself from telling him what a poor job he was doing and would continue to do so until he educated himself and was able to answer customer's questions. Lack of motivation on his part I guess.

At the very least, B & N has done a piss-poor job in training their employees. It just reinforces the bad vibe I've gotten from them as a company in the last year, as if they just don't care about anything but their website.

I can't believe how instinctively I was about to get all Sergeant like on this young man for poor performance. LOL.

retired Sergeants may be like retired teachers in that regard...never really lose that instinct to "help".

Friends O' Mine, my friend will be returning to Mali in the next month or so and she is considering the possibility of investing in a Kindle or Nook rather than paying the exorbitant shipping costs of shipping books over.

It seems to me that in one of the conversations on the subject here, there were drawbacks to the Kindle or the Nook or both overseas? Can you tell me what they are? Are you not able to download books onto them? Which is better? She could probably download many books while she is still here, could she then take her sweet time reading them?

I would appreciate any advice on this you have to offer, I tried looking at the sites, but then they aren't publicizing their drawbacks and limitations very loudly.

I found a page on Amazon that says the international version of Kindle works in more than 100 countries, but Mali isn't one of them. By "works," I mean downloading books to it--presumably it would work fine for reading books downloaded here before she goes. The Nook doesn't have international downloading at all, apparently.

Not sure where an iPad fits into this, except that it costs more.

I just read through a conversation thread, but it was rather old. It had all sorts of tricky tips on getting books into your Kindle overseas. I think if she gets one though, she will simply put the books on before she leaves. That shouldn't be an issue.

#116 - There are limitations to the wireless abilities in some countries. However you'll always be able to download books to your computer, and transfer them through a usb cable. (just like transfering pictures from a camera). And by not using the wireless if you remember to turn it off, you'll get much longer battery life - it's a significant drain.

I was able to go a week at a time in Iraq without re-charging my Kindle. The downloading from your laptop is easy.

My Kindle can go about a month without a charge if I only turn on the wireless to download a book or two. It literally takes seconds and then you turn it off again.

The time is also affected by what font size you use, since the Kindle only uses power when you turn pages. If you use a larger font size and turn pages often it needs charging more often.

I love, love, love the dictionary feature of the kindle!

Also, I am out of shelves for real books. I've been slowly trading in my less frequently read books (especially classics that can be downloaded for free) in for more recent releases at used books store in a slow project designed to get books out of stacks in odd locations throughout my house.

However, my favorite sound in the world remains the sound of pages turning.. and the kindle doesn't do well at replicating that feeling.

While it is annoying to put a kindle in a protective baggie to read near water, it is more annoying to struggle with an overly large hardback rather than the slim and lightweight kindle.

Your friend could also get into a conversation, on line, with some Amazon type who could explain the pro and con of having a Kindle in Africa. If she really really loves to read and she travels occasionally to Europe or the US of A I would advise her to go for it.

#116 MrsLee ~ I'm in the throes of choosing an eReader so am "up" on the limitations of international ownership of Kindle versus Nook. Here's what I've learned:

At present, you are not allowed to purchase new books for the Nook from B&N when you are out of the United States (or Canada and a few other U.S. possessions). If you are in a foreign country or even on a military base somewhere else in the world, you can read whatever you have already downloaded on your Nook but you cannot buy new eBooks from B&N for the Nook. Apparently B&N checks the IP address of the computer (or Nook) you are ordering from and, if it's not an IP address that is located in the U.S., no sale.

Amazon.com, on the other hand, sells books to anyone wherever they are in the world for the Kindle. If you can't do it on the Kindle via wireless or 3G, then you can download it to your computer and sideload it to your Kindle. (You cannot use a computer to sidestep the B&N ban on international book purchasing.)

Having said that, there's another reason I'm probably going for a Kindle rather than a Nook, though I think the Nook is prettier: With the Kindle, I can read in landscape mode, if I choose. My old tired eyes need large fonts these days, and right now I'm using a sheet of acrylic to magnify books I read, especially in the evenings. With Kindle in landscape mode, I can make the font size really huge and get more words on a line (so I'm not seeing three or four words on a line). Nook has only portrait mode.

Also, I recently heard that Kindle just received the patent for dual screens on an eReader, which puts Nook at a bit of a disadvantage with their dual screen setup, and word is that Kindle will be suing them for patent infringement. Not sure what the fallout of that will be.

Edited to correct typo.

I have had a first generation Kindle for many months now and have never had any problems. I love it.

Storeetllr - Thank you so much for that info, I'm forwarding it to my friends. :)

MrsLee ~ Welcome! Hope it helps.

Just for the record, today I bought a Kindle2 and am trying it out. So far, it's okay ~ actually, it's a lot of fun (I can be such a techno-nerd) ~ but I can't help but feel the screen is just too small for me. AND I have yet to figure out how (or even if) I can get library books on it (free books from Amazon.com or other places online are fine, but there are so many books I just want to read once and then give back to the library that aren't available free or even really cheap). Still, I'm going to use it for at least a month before passing judgment.

Edited to make sense.

#129 Check with your library, they may have ebook loans already. Many do.

I'm just afraid bookstores may disappear the way record stores and video stores have (with a few exceptions).

I love bookstores!

Will they become places where hard copies are high-priced "collectors' items" for those willing to ante up more than the digital price? Will they make enough money to stick around?

My husband just bought me a Nook. I was very skeptical at first (I like books) but I think I'm in love. It's lightweight, you can adjust the font size, look up words, and so much more. I am really enjoying it so far!

Can anyone tell me what dictionary is on the Nook (for when you look up words)?

#131 Thanks, but you can't download library books (at least not from my library) to and read on the Kindle. :( You can download them to the Nook and they will play on the Sony readers, but not Kindle. Something to do with copy protection. Someone on LT said there's a way to get rid of the DRM so you can read library books on Kindle (I think), but I haven't figured it out yet, if it is figure-outable. Hmm, is that even a word?

Here I am back with my old refrain, Amazon has been accused of homophobia several times in the past few years, so I don't buy from them. I was pretty pouty that I couldn't get a Kindle, then lo and behold, my daughter talked me into getting us Nooks. It's so easy to read in bed now. Also, I downloaded both The Passage and Lonesome Dove ( and 2 Mary Roach books) to take on vacation, big books that I'm glad not to have to lug around. I like the Lend Me feature even though there's a 2 week time limit, that's long enough. The only problem with it is that it doesn't apply to all, or even most, books. Thanks, Storeetllr, about the info regarding e library books. I'll have to try them.

I have no loyalty to the feel or smell of paper books, and my poor book shelves are groaning. They're way past the phase of my enjoying their look. I'm a biblioomnivore: audiobooks, e books, paper, I don't care. Love them all.

#137 Yes, you can do the library loan thing on Kindle and yes, you can "break" the DRM rather easily on a Kindle. (If you don't mind ignoring a stupid, stupid law.) A bit of googling should get you the info you need.

Remember that you can upload things onto a Kindle via USB port, which allows you to get around a lot.

Homophobia? Amazon?

I would like an e-reader, but until there's a standardized format and retailers can compete evenly with the same products, I think I'll refrain. The publishers need to take a stand and ratify something, but I think they've missed the bus.

I don't know about the homophobia, but a writer friend of mine says Amazon.com is very anti-writer and anti-publisher. She said, "They want to control it all."

I'm still deciding whether to keep the Kindle or get a Nook. It's still early days, but I'm finding that I am not using the landscape mode as often as I thought I would, and that was one big reason I got the Kindle.

One thing though: I absolutely love reading on an eReader! It's just amazing. (I'm with Joyce, tho. I'll read any way I can: book, ebook, audiobook, cereal box.)

Have you looked at the Kindle DX? It's the larger version.

Yes, but it costs almost as much as an iPad, which is much more useful (I think). Also, I've so far found that the 6" screen is surprisingly comfortable to use.

#140 Do you remember the kerfuffle a few months ago when Amazon de-ranked books it deemed to promote homosexuality?

http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/04/dont_jump_to_co.html;j...

"Writer Mark R. Probst started the furor on Sunday with a blog post noting that Amazon had deleted the sales ranking from two newly-released gay romance books -- a fate which he subsequently learned befell hundreds of gay and lesbian themed books. Probst queried Amazon and got a response back saying they were delisted because they'd been classified as "adult;" the response was signed by "Ashlyn D, Member Services, Amazon.com Advantage"

So first they said it was an "adult" book thing, when that was proven wrong, they said it was a "glitch". I guess they were surprised their little attempt at management of our reading habits caused such an uproar, because the "glitch" has been fixed. I think this is more Big Brother than I care to be involved with from my book seller.

When the original Amazon Bookstore, an independent women's bookstore, sued them for their name I'd heard they said that the indie was just owned by a bunch of dykes, though I have no proof of that.

Hmm, I don't like homophobia. I'm straight, but I just don't like it at all.

Phlox72, agreed. It's a stupid stance that does no one any good, and there is absolutely no reason for organizations to get entangled with it.

I don't like homophobia or censorship in any form by anyone, but especially by a bookseller. This Kindle, for all that I am loving it, may be about to go back to the store and be replaced by a Nook.

But, Storeetllr, all the advantages you mention truly are advantages. Life is so much easier when it's black and white.

Ethics aside (if one were to boycott every private business that engaged in something deplorable, one would not own much; how many here purchase products made by Chinese slave labor, I must wonder), if Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Sony, Apple, etc., could prove to me that my purchases would be mine and that they could never remove them from the device, then I would be more apt to jump on the technological bandwagon.

I do not trust Amazon following their Orwellian incident simply because they promise to never make such a move again; if something is exploitable, someone will exploit it.

Yup, that's yet another example of what Amazon does. I don't find them trustworthy, honorable or anything else I could trust with my business.

This a sad aspect of how it may be too late for the publishers to do anything collectively, the Kindle format is becoming a "standard" for lack of a better term and because they're a retailer they dictate terms including availability, searchability and pricing which we've already seen fallout from. It's sad that they've missed the bus on this one and only the retailers are trying to fill the need. In a "perfect" world (sorry for the quotes) I'd like to buy from a publisher in a format that would work on multiple devices over many years of change (like swapping the card in a cell phone or transferring your hd from one laptop to another) on my part. In a sense I don't mind "renting" (there are those pesky quotes again) books, but I don't want them to be rented on a single device. I've had 3 iPods and have moved music from one to the other without incident including audiobooks. Why ebooks should be so much harder is a mystery.

I thought the theory was that e-books purchased from Amazon were available in a "library" that you could download again if you buy a new device? Is that not so?

First of all, the "sad fact" is that the publishers are engaging in price fixing. Every retailer is now bound to charge the same price for ebooks from certain publishers, or they are not able to sell them at all. There's hardly a reason to worry about DRM when you can't search around for a better price.

And the reason is that publishers are afraid of the new media and are trying to force people to buy paper books. It's a temporary stop gap.

Amazon was the first to market with a reliable ebook reader, and tried to corner the market by selling the books at a low price. Basic retailing, right? But as other retailers began to get in the mix, publishers freaked out and instead of letting the market (supply and demand) dictate pricing, set up a situation that practically begs consumers to go to pirated versions of its product.

Once all the silliness stops, it won't matter where you bought your ereader, you will be able to purchase an ebook from any site and legally read it on any device. Consumers will hunt out the best price like they do with physical books. Just be patient and don't pay over 10 bucks for an ebook until they get the message.

eh, I don't know if it's price fixing the way you imply. Take a paper book for a minute, most retailers buy them at the price the publisher sets. Larger retailers probably get a larger discount as it is with pretty much all goods. So then it depends on the retailer's tolerance for low margin to set the price. Why should it be different with ebooks? As far as I knew, Amazon set the price they wanted to sell at and dictated that to the publishers regardless of what the publishers wanted or whether they made a profit.

now it seems that a publisher has to make available several different and conflicting formats for B&N, Sony, Amazon, etc. They didn't have to do this with paper, why should they have to do it with electronic books? Because they didn't step up in time and we have competing formats.

What if I get a kindle one day, it breaks or is stolen or whatever and I decide I want a Nook to replace it. What happens to my books now? That's what's not clear to me. What if it's 10 years later that I switch to a new device?

If I've made any errors, let me know, but from what I've seen ebooks are treated vastly different than their physical counterparts, and unequally as well.

So then it depends on the retailer's tolerance for low margin to set the price.

Right, that is precisely what publishers (the wholesalers) are not allowing Amazon (the retailer) to do, set the price. Amazon has always been a discount retailer, but now they cannot set their prices lower than anyone else, all retailers are selling ebooks at the same price (check a few out and you'll see).

This is only certain publishers, btw.

What is really annoying is when the brand new hardback is selling for less than the ebook. Publishers don't give a crack whether amazon discounts physical books 50%, but they feel entitled to dictate the margins for something that demands no warehousing, buyback, etc. etc.

It's ludicrous.

But there is a solution to the reading-in-the-bathtub problem. The "M-Edge protects eReaders in up to a meter of water." It's expensive, but cheaper than a new reader.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/14/summer-gadgets-2010-top-1_n_644245.html...

hm littlegeek, that's precisely opposite of how I knew of the incident.

#158 It all started when Steve Jobs agreed to set higher prices for ebooks for the iPad. The publishers got greedy and started dictating prices to every other retailer. So thank Apple.

The irony is that amazon was selling at a loss to boost sales of the Kindle, but now amazon is acutally making more money on ebook sales of those titles. Maybe that's why they cut the price of the Kindle.

As a consumer, I'll just do what I always did in the past - wait for the price to come down. I almost never bought new hardbacks in the past, just waited for the paperback. Now I do the same thing with the ebook. Difference is, often you only have to wait a couple of weeks.

so basically you think the manufacturer should have no say in the pricing of its products.

They can suggest it, but once they've sold their merchandise to a reseller, how is it their business if the retailer chooses to take a loss? No retailer is going to do this for any length of time because they couldn't stay in business. They have to have margin on most of their products. In the case of the Kindle, amazon had spent lots of their own money on R&D and came out with a great product. They sold the books at a loss (to themselves) in order to attract buyers for their new device. Publishers weren't losing anything, they were gaining a whole new market with much less overhead for them and retailers, but they were scared about how to deal with it. So they freaked.

Let's face it, publishers that don't have to manufacture and house physical books have much less to do. Even less to do when they're not even having to generate their own advertising, as amazon and the internet (LT included) has been generating it for them practically for free. (Those, "if you liked..." algorithms work pretty well.)

The one thing they still provide that does seem worthwhile (to me, at least) is editing. Having read some self-published work, I am certainly willing to have someone with a brain vette and edit writers' work. The vast majority need it (and should feel no shame about that). The problem is, a lot of the buzz surrounding ebooks has been about how easy it is to self-publish, which has probably contributed to the publisher's dismay. Instead of trying to stem the tide of ebooks, which are going to succeed, they should be pointing out why editors are needed. That message is starting to get out.

So I really don't see a bad guy here other than the suits at the publishing houses panicking instead of learning to understand and embrace the new technology. If they had a brain, instead of supporting the retailer by demanding they take more margin (so weird - they literally did this), they would be selling their ebook titles on their own websites for peanuts and putting amazon and other retailers out of business. (some do this, actually)

Until the whole mess calms down, I'm letting them know that it's not worth it to pay more for an ebook than a hardback, much less a paperback.

#162 I do the same thing with my Kindle. I have no idea why so many people think you can't read other formats on Kindle, but it's just not true.

nah. Still don't buy it. If Amazon created a false environment of low prices to fund their device, that's their problem and their short sightedness. They should have looked for another way to fund their own venture that didn't rely on cheating their suppliers. If publishers want to preserve what little profit they have in their intellectual property regardless of medium, that's their right. To knuckle under and say that a new book in paper has more value than just the paper than do the same words presented in 1s and 0s is just going to shrink the # of books they can publish a year or greatly reduce what they can pay an author for creating. You can't have it both ways.

If publishers want to preserve what little profit they have in their intellectual property regardless of medium, that's their right.

The publishers don't have property rights to the works, the authors do.

To knuckle under and say that a new book in paper has more value than just the paper than do the same words presented in 1s and 0s is just going to shrink the # of books they can publish a year or greatly reduce what they can pay an author for creating. You can't have it both ways.

Without the physical costs (paper, warehousing, shipping, etc.) it simply costs much less to make ebooks. They should be paying the author the same, or more, for each title without that overhead. There's no way I want the author paid less, I simply don't see why it shouldn't cost significantly less to produce something with no physicality.

What I understand is that authors that do self-publish with amazon can make a tidy profit by selling at 1-5 dollars a copy.

Eh, I still don't buy it. Without publishers and the marketing engines they can fire up, authors can do what?? Self-publish? Seriously? Ok. And yes, the publisher has rights to the material they bought from the author and once done the author can't just do what she wants with it. It's a binding contract, no pun intended.

And I think you should check the % of cost the physical production makes up of the total. I think you'll find it more minuscule than it is.

I'm not sure what you're "not buying." Regardless of the % of the costs of physical production, it still costs less to produce an ebook. I want authors to get paid, I want publishers to get paid, I want books to be edited and I'm not a big fan of "self-publishing." The only thing I take issue with is the publishers (wholesaler) dictating prices for the retailers. They are precluding fair competition by requiring every retailer to resell their products at the same price.

There are going to be lawsuits. The Texas AG is investigating whether to start up an antitrust suit.

And don't all retailers set the price of what they sell? If they didn't, if they needed to get the manufacturer's approval first, there wouldn't be as many weekly sales, holiday sales, stores that usually have cheaper prices, discounts in general . . . Stores would have harder time competing with each other, I think, if they couldn't set their own prices.

And anyway amazon could not have kept taking a loss forever; it would have raised its prices sooner or later. The publishers probably just forced amazon's time table up.

I've heard that the actual price of warehousing + printing + returns is the smallest part of making a book ready to go and even taking that price out of the equation, the overall price doesn't change all that much because you still need to do with editing and book design and marketing. Though I've also heard publishers don't do much marketing and if an editor decided to edit a book and take a percentage of the royalties for that service, the author could than self-publish and do the marketing herself (which you have to do anyway). Put the editors name somewhere in the beginning, maybe create a brand that way. Edited by so and so and you know it will be good. Might still get higher royalties, just no advance.

Yes, retailers get to set the prices of what they sell, however, if they deliberately try to create a model UNDER their own costs, that's a problem. It's a false marketplace that is ultimately unrealistic and unsustainable regardless of whether or not a consumer "thinks" they know what something costs to produce. If a retailer takes on that kind of loss leading system and then can't sustain it and tries to blame the producer of the good, it's their own fault. They knew what the stuff cost when they decided to take a loss on it.

Well I did say amazon would have raised its prices sooner or later . . . All stores who decide to engage in cutthroat pricing eventually do. Manufacturing prices won't change, after all, and likely will only go up with time.

And I have the impression they had already started increasing the price of its bestsellers by like a dollar or so by the time this whole thing with the publishers started (11 or 12 instead of the 10 they had been charging, not the 13 or 14 they charge now. an impression i gained through browsing at that time and than realizing some publishers' books were missing. couldn't prove it though)

and I don't think amazon was trying to blame anyone. were they? If it was, why would they admit to taking a loss on each title? (they must have admitted it somewhere. can't think where right this instant though.)

edited to get rid of mini rant. sorry

Seems like Baen Books and C.J. Cherryh are the only folks making it easy for e-readers. Then again Cherryh was the first to offer her stuff for Sony back in the 90s.

Yes, loss leaders are a short term strategy that retailers use to draw in new customers. I never said anything different. amazon would not have been able to keep it up indefinitely. What people keep on missing here is that certain publishers are colluding to set prices across the board for all retailers. This is bad for the consumer, since retailers are then unable to compete for prices we consumers are not able to shop around for a good price.

This whole thing is further complicated by the stupid DRM issue, (which is something to be annoyed at amazon for) but that's another kettle of fish.

Basically my understanding is that littlegeek has it right - apart from the claim that the Kindle was the firest ereader. It wasn't even the first eink reader. It was simply the most widely publicised.

regarding costs - yes the physical element isn't that huge, until you get taxed on warehouse inventory. But Hardback prices? come on. No way on earth does the cost of an ebook come close to that of a hardback. So why do the publishers insist on hardback prices fro ebooks? Because they can. It drives readers to the pirates, surely they know this?

I'm not bothered by the high prices of ebooks when they are first released. I understand that sellers want to make more money by exploiting the impatience of people. If my favorite author releases a new book I will be temped to buy it even if the price is high. After a period prices should drop to lower than a paperback, because even if it's not that much cheaper to publish an ebook it certainly doesn't cost more than publishing a paper book.

However to my mind it should be considerably cheaper. It should be possible to for a publisher to sell directly to the customer thereby eliminating the middle man (book stores). Even if they don't do that, the margin of profit that the middle man takes should be less than with a paper book, after all there is no need to have a physical store, warehouse to store books, employees to sell the books(you do need employees, but less and for different tasks like database management, reviews etc)

This is the future, why fight it? A smart publisher will go with the times and try to find a new role. They will still be needed for editing, maybe for some marketing. Any publisher that sees this can create good business for them selfs.

Edit: A bigger problem is availability. Or the lack of it. I live in holland and a lot of (english) ebooks are not available here because of geographical restriction. There is no good reason for it really, it's a lot of BS. Oh well, that's life.

My experience in publishing production was that the cheapest part of our budgets was the editorial costs; production and printing and binding and marketing and warehousing and shipping were all much bigger costs. (I'm talking about nonfiction/reference books here, not bestsellers for which the authors get big piles of money.)

And there are all kinds of e-publishers now trying out the model whereby the editors (and in some cases, everyone else involved with the publishing enterprise) get paid by royalties. I'm interested to see how that might play out, but dubious, too--one could do a lot of work before seeing any pay for it at all, and what do you do when the e-publisher suddenly closes up shop? There go your royalties, most likely. It might work out eventually, but it's early days and a lot of people seem to be starting up e-pubs with nothing more than the desire to do so.

And for what it's worth, there's a difference between a publisher deciding what they will sell the book to Amazon or anyone else for, and that same publisher having the "right" to decide what price Amazon et al. put on the product after that. Why should they?

in the publisher's defense, i think they were trying to keep amazon from gaining the lion's share of the ebook market. because they were afraid if that happened, amazon would be able to dictate prices to them because they will have no choice but to sell through amazon. (i think walmart did that to some of its suppliers too)

To ej, re: editors working off royalties: why should editors necessarily get paid if the book still sucks? Shouldn't they be as responsible for the quality of the book as the writer is?

Re #177: Yes, but they instituted this step precisely at the moment that many others, including most specifically Apple, were getting into the ebook market. And they have no problem with amazon discounting their hardbacks as low as they want.

I'm not against the idea at all, although I would point out that an editor can only do so much--she has to work with what she is given (I'm talking about a copy editor or line editor or whatever you'd like to call it--not a submissions editor who gets to decide what books get accepted).

My caveat has more to do with the uncertain stability of new e-publishers who may not be around to pay the royalties three or five years from now. The author has rights to the material and can take it elsewhere, but an editor might well be left with nothing to show for the work.

Despite this, I'm probably going to give it a whirl--just not exclusively, as I am very fond of eating and electricity and such.

#179 Maybe editors will freelance and sign contracts with authors more like agents do now. Then they could demand a retainer plus a royalty.

Good luck with your publishing efforts, and keep us posted!

178: littlegeek - yeah, the nook, the borders one, the ipad and all the ipadish devices that are supposed to come out soon. i do they jumped the gun a little bit. even with the software version of the kindle for the ipad (and other ipadish devices) i dunno if they would have been able to gain enough market share to dictate prices to the publishers

Amazon is now selling more e-books than hardcovers.

What caught my attention, though, is:

"Book lovers mourning the demise of hardcover books with their heft and their musty smell need a reality check, said Mike Shatzkin, founder and chief executive of the Idea Logical Company, which advises book publishers on digital change. “This was a day that was going to come, a day that had to come,” he said. He predicts that within a decade, fewer than 25 percent of all books sold will be print versions."

I do not consider myself a Luddite, but I find it disheartening that people are willing to act so apathetically to technology, to allow it to simply take control of whatever used to be praised for quality. I am also no romantic; though I can appreciate an antique, I am not in love with my printed books for their smell. But that the people are handing their intellectual inheritance over to a handful of businesses (and ultimately their governments) and trusting them to treat it with respect (i.e. we trust they will not alter the content of books in an unethical way) with perhaps the most powerful tool to handle books since Gutenberg's movable type printing is horrifying.

I can only hope I do not live to see the day when people stop caring that much. But, if we're that apathetic and careless a species, perhaps we deserve whatever happens to our intellectual history.

I guess I'm a cheapskate then, cause, if it's true, it means most Kindle users will pay whatever they ask if they get instant gratification. amazon is notorious for fabricating stats, though.

But that the people are handing their intellectual inheritance over to a handful of businesses (and ultimately their governments) and trusting them to treat it with respect (i.e. we trust they will not alter the content of books in an unethical way) with perhaps the most powerful tool to handle books since Gutenberg's movable type printing is horrifying.

This seems overly dramatic to me. I'm sure the author (or their heirs) will still have originals of the works on their harddrives somewhere, or even hard copies. I don't see that it will be any easier to alter works than it is now.

You should check out a book called The Commissar Vanishes. Scumbags always find a way, regardless of media.

There are two main reasons why I will never switch to ebooks.

1. I really dislike reading long passages of text from a screen. When I was studying and had to read online articles I would always print them out first and read them from paper as I found it far more pleasant to read that way.

2. With the exception of a few books which I have to own and so order from Amazon marketplace for 1p plus shipping, I buy all my books for less than £1 at charity shops and summer fetes. As I don't foresee this ever happening for non-physical books there seems very little point in investing in a device to read them.

#184 - have you tried looking at an eink screen though?

I hear this so many times, from people who assume it's like reading of a PC monitor, or phone screen. It really is worlds apart.

2) There are thousands of free ebooks out there - mostly classics etc, and out of copyright, though a few authors also offer free books as an inducement to buying their other works.

#182 "But that the people are handing their intellectual inheritance over to a handful of businesses (and ultimately their governments) and trusting them to treat it with respect "
this doesn't make much sense. Once the book is on your reader/PC it's yours, "they" can't alter it - especially if you don't buy a wireless model.

#185 - No, I haven't, but then I don't know anyone who has one. I travel on the train and London Underground every day where everyone stands around reading a book, and I'll see maybe one ereader a month, so they remain far from common elsewhere too. I think Waterstones has a tiny display of the things, but they're in a big glass case so you can't play with them. It might be interesting to have a go though.

As to the classics being freely available, that's nice to hear. However, that's the sort of thing that I already own. It's new books that I keep picking up, and it's still much easier and cheaper for me to get them as I find them second hand.

Out of interest though, do you know how well they cope with non-Roman letters?

The Kindle is so much easier on my eyes than the computer. I never read long passages on the computer, never. Hate it. But the Kindle and its ability to change font as well as use the eink technology is a whole different world. I have not stopped buying hard copy of books. There are too many books I want to read, and see, that are not available on the Kindle, and probably never will be.

I have yet to try the Print On Demand book but I do know where there is one should I ever need it. I like that idea for the more obscure titles.

They cope fine with non-roman letters. Assuming the author/publisher has formatted the files correctly!

Waterstones definetly has/had some to play with - try asking one of the staff. I only bought mine once I'd had a chance to hold in the hand and use it. I'd certainly recommend anyone who is interested in them to do so. Different makes and models have different ergonomics and it can make quite a bit of difference in the comfort of using them - although all the screens are very similar.

I live near a J&R - I tried out the sony eink reader there for the first time. (I live in NY) But I had to ask the staff - he took one out from the case for me, so I could see how the sony one worked.

Also, these days, Toys R Us also has ereaders on display (along with netbooks). Though they weren't actually on when I was there last.

I am pretty sure quite a few electronics stores also have them on display.

Just make sure it's an eReader that has an eInk screen. I think some of them have LCD screens, which are as hard on the eyes as a computer screen.

For the record, though I love physical books, I love audiobooks listened to on my iPod too and also love my new eReader (it's a Kindle, but I'm thinking of exchanging it for a Sony Touch or Nook ~ or buying a Touch or Nook to have in addition to the Kindle). Two things I don't like about the Kindle ~ the page-turning button is annoyingly stiff (it takes more effort to click than I would have thought it should) and will perhaps begin to cause my carpal tunnel to flare up if I were to use it too much. Sony's Touch has touchscreen capability and a button to turn pages. The other thing I don't like about Kindle is that you can't download and read library eBooks (ePub format) on it. Yet anyway. One hopes that will change, but in the meantime Nooks and Touches work with eLibrary books.

The other thing I don't like about Kindle is that you can't download and read library eBooks (ePub format) on it.

It is extremely simple to convert ePub to another format.

library ebooks are always drmed, with a temporary license and everything, and i think you would have to remove that before you convert. Also, they are sometimes (my library anyway) limited to a particular device, with limited downloads as well, so you would probably have to download directly to the ereader.

(I thought I commented on this thread already, but I guess it was one like it in a different group...)

I'm approaching my first eReader purchase so I want to give a huge thank you for all the helpful info posted here. I know I still have a lot to learn in terms of formats and such, so this has become quite the resource.

Also, I think it's interesting that people mentioned the possibility of businesses or governments altering eBook content. A guy I went to college with wrote a sci-fi novel around that premise that was (somewhat ironically) in the running for Amazon's breakthrough novel award this year. (It's M Clifford's The Book if anyone's interested).

But the thing that I think is most strange about all these debates is that people still take the either-or stand on eBooks versus paper books. I'm a huge movie fan and something I think is cool is how oftentimes now when I buy a blu-ray there's a code for a digital copy of the movie that I can download to my computer. I think it would be awesome for publishers to do something similar where you could buy a hard copy of a book and get a free (or discounted) copy of the eBook. Then you could have the book in your home library and still enjoy it on the go. Best of both worlds, I'd think.

I have nothing personally against the e-reader being a compliment to the physical book; I understand and sympathize that people who travel a lot or buy a lot of cheap paperback romances/sci-fi/whatever have a real interest in the e-reader. What bothers me is that the demand for the physical book will go down, leading to a decrease in supply, meaning, if I managed my supply-demand chart correctly, eventually book prices may raise substantially. People will be deferred from purchasing physical books and will, naturally, prefer the lower-priced ebooks (not taking into account digital pirating). Physical books could be reduced to a combined case of keep-circulating-the-tapes and a hobby of the wealthy, depending on the quality of the book.

Of course, I may be paranoid, and I do hope I'm making a mountain of a mole hill. But I would rather not see the physical book go the way of the cassette and VHS.

I just read an article on AlterNet called How Amazon Kills Books and Makes Us Stupid. It covers some interesting concepts such as how the increased number of books available actually lowers choice, how Amazon's pricing is effecting publishing, how Amazon's pricing may benefit everyone except the writer, and the effect of lowering author advances on attracting amateur writers as opposed to those who know how to research their books.

http://www.alternet.org/story/147590/how_amazon_kills_books_and_makes_us_stupid?...

article says that amazon sold more ebooks than hardcovers: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/technology/20kindle.html?_r=1

#191 Thanks, fleela. I think you mentioned Calibre on another thread and I downloaded it and use it happily for all sorts of formats, but like spoiledfornothing says in #192, there's that pesky DRM that my library uses which makes reading library eBooks impossible on the Kindle. At least I haven't figured out yet how to get around it.

Ah, I stay away from DRM. I'll go without rather than give tacit approval by using media that's crippled by it.

#193 I've got The Book to read on my Kindle! lol

Personally, I think the move to eBooks has gone too far to stop, so all of us who care about books must be vigilant to any alteration of content or other sneaky finagling by big business and the gubment.

I would hope and believe that physical books will still be around for a long time, but frankly I think in another hundred years or so (barring any global disaster that throws civilization back centuries developmentally), all reading will be done on eReaders, with a few repositories containing hard copies of previously published books for posterity. Not a pleasant thought, and I sure hope I'm wrong, but the way today's youth (and others) are embracing the technology, I think it's pretty much a foregone conclusion.

#197 Seriously, a quick google search should answer your question on how to get around the DRM, should you choose to do so. It's pretty damn easy.

Was it in Fahrenheit 451 that people took on the task of memorizing whole books so that they wouldn't be lost? That was such a powerful idea.

Something I posted on Twitter today: I've read 34 books on my iPad with no eye-strain from the LCD screen.

Clerk at B&N foisted a Nook on me as I was walking around one day. After 5 minutes I knew I could never deal with the sloooow page turns. I haven't been able to test a Kindle yet, alas.

Being an unfortunately slow reader, I don't mind the page turns, and it's good for me that I can turn the page with just a brush of my finger, so no worry about thumb or carpal tunnel injury. But I was just thinking of that problem the other day in relation to the people who seem to read at the speed of light.

I went by a B&N to look at the Nook even though I own and love my Kindle. It did seem "clunky" but that may be because I am so accustomed to my Kindle. I do read quite quickly and find that I hit my turn the page button just a couple of seconds, or maybe nano-seconds, before I finish reading the words and find that the page turns just as I need it. Only took a little practice to time it just right.

I think the Nook could work just fine with a little practice, too. I think we are just not accustomed just as I sometimes make errors on the keyboards for lap tops because they are not "typewriters".

hehehehe

It took me a little adjustment to get the rhythm of when to click the page turn button on my Kindle. It's different from when to grab the paper page, but you do figure it out so that you don't have to wait.

ebooks are the future, don't fight it. The medium is NOT the message.

Whew! I just read this thread from top to bottom. Many interesting notes, and I especially liked the more informative posts. I'll be sure to check those for when I finally decide to buy an e-book reader.

In the meantime, I'm not particularly keen to the idea.

Firstly, I'm one of those weird people who likes to smell her books. Indeed, that's why I prefer old, used books over new, crisp ones. Old books have a spicy smell. I like caressing the rough texture of the pages in paperback editions that have gone old and yellow. Plus, I imagine used books carry with them the secret stories of all the people who have read them before me.

This kind of discussion always reminds me of this exchange between Jenny and Giles in Buffy the Vampire Slayer:

Jenny Calendar: Honestly, what is it about them that bothers you so much?
Giles: The smell.
Jenny Calendar: Computers don't smell, Rupert.
Giles: I know. Smell is the most powerful trigger to the memory there is. A certain flower, or a-a whiff of smoke can bring up experiences long forgotten. Books smell musty and-and-and rich. The knowledge gained from a computer is uh - it, uh, it has no-no texture, no-no context. It's-it's there and then it's gone. If it's to last, then-then the getting of knowledge should be, uh, tangible, it should be, um, smelly.

Exactly! Heh. And on another Jossy note: "Ditch the tech!" ;)

Secondly, I say to myself that I'm doing a tiny bit towards helping the environment by buying and recycling used books instead of new ones. Then again, I have no idea about the scale of the impact this has on sales, new authors, and such.

But seriously, it's not that I'm opposed to e-books, it's just that I don't really have a need for them. I work at home, so my entire library (not too big at the moment) is just a few steps away. If I get bored with the book I'm reading (it's happening a lot lately), I just browse the shelves until I find another one that catches my fancy. And if I want a new ("new" as in not owned by me) book, I go online and order a used one through Better World Books (I only buy DVDs from Amazon, and used ones at that, as well.)

Now, I'm thinking of taking an extended vacation abroad next year, so an e-book reader sounds like a good idea. What with travel restrictions and all, fitting a month's worth of books in a suitcase starts to look like a problem.

Which brings me to this question: wasn't it recently that airlines prohibited passengers from using any electronic device at any time during the flight?

(Please forgive the spelling mistakes/weird grammar. I'm tired and I should really go to bed now.)

There's an airline mode on the Nook just as there is on the iPhone.

205: ebooks are the future, don't fight it. The medium is NOT the message.

This is the type of apathy that tells me that we deserve every horrible thing that will happen to us once we surrender everything sacred to the Almighty Technopoly. Every day I must be reminded that despite all of the information surrounding us, the availability of so much material at the click of our fingers, we really are living in a Dark Age.

The message is completely dependent on the medium. This is why we do not simply replace books with the television, though they may be telling the same story. Let's assume fifty years from now that print truly is gone. How will the new reader know that his or her copy of Moby-Dick is the same as when Melville released it. Perhaps within that time, the Powers That Be decided that it needed an up-grade to appeal to a younger generation, so they "dumbed" it down. The readers will not know, and the older ones will not care, because they are just embracing the future, no matter what it offers or what it replaces.

How do they know it now? Seriously, this publisher worship is kind of odd. What makes you think that publishers will suddenly behave unethically when they produce an electronic book v. a dead tree book? If they have this latent unethical streak, how can you characterize them as being right and just and untouchable now? At least this is how it comes across Phocion. And the fear of technology comes across, too. It might not be what you really feel, but it's sort of strange from a person using the internet.

I'm not a Luddite, but I do not trust the Internet farther than I can throw my computer. I'll use it, because to contact a wide range of individuals, I have no other choice; because choices are limited. I simply do not like seeing people shrug their shoulders and thereby allowing the technology to control them. It's blind faith, the sort of behavior many probably criticize others for. They do not question it, except to ask how much faster it can be theirs and can they get it cheaper.

As for the current publishing and the possibility of altering material, it already does exist. We have abridged adaptations of books (for children and adults) and side-by-side translations of 19th century British/American novels into "modern" English as if they are a different language. It's unethical now and it will be unethical fifty years from now. But now people are apathetic about it, though thankfully the preserved versions are amply available.

What the ereader format allows is for the type of behavior (or worse) to happen without it being in the complete open. Say, for instance, that the ereader begins to operate as the ipod, and that every-so-often you must update certain features. Say one of these features would be Amazon altering the ending to one of your books. The person who does not back up their files (you know as well as I it is more often the case) and has had that book on their to-be-read pile will not notice. Certainly, for a good while, the people may not tolerate this type of behavior from their businesses, but due to apathy they will eventually shrug their shoulders and take whatever they get.

This is not taking into account that if, one day, physical books have disappeared and are in the hands of only a small group of people, the government can (and probably will) begin mandating certain changes, so that "obscene" or "offending" material from books is altered or simply removed. By then, perhaps only a few businesses will have a monopoly over the ebooks. Perhaps the government, if Australia and plenty of Western Europe are of relevant examples in their exploits, the government has maintained control of the Internet. Does not sound like a favorable scenario.

I do not deny this is worst-case-scenario, and, again, I may be paranoid. For all I know, a meteor will hit us in 2012, and this conversation will be null.

wow. I hardly know what to say in the face of so much emotion and speculation. I'm glad I'm not you, Phocion. What burden to carry around.

It's unethical to adapt works for kids? Unethical? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

My first thought: Wow! What a great premise for a fine dystopian novel. Second, oh, I am glad I don't spend too much time contemplating all the ways in which modern life has altered the Life I Knew back in the golden 1950s.

211: Perfectly understandable. I wish I was not me, either, as no one enjoys the Buzzkill.

212: There are plenty of books for children without having to adapt novels. If a thirteen year-old cannot read Dracula as it is (and there's no reason why a thirteen year-old shouldn't, short of valid mental concerns), that is more a problem of the child, not the book. Therefore, lowering the quality of the book becomes a case of thinking children are stupid.

207:I think he was referring to the few days a while back where they barred ALL electronic devices, even in 'airline mode', after one of the security breaches.

Then they reduced it to no devices during the first and last hour of flights (these were transatlantic flights).

Personally I see e-books as a complement to the 10,000 dead tree books we own. I tend to ONLY use them if I'm stuck without a book somewhere.

I read them on my Windows Mobile Phone. Most I either picked up from Baen Books, or are free out of copyright material.

The E-book suffers from some big negatives: the requirement for power, reliability of the reading device, lack of availability of particular titles in a good format (or any format in many cases), and DRM amongst others.

I've met a lot of college age folks in the last few years who seem to think that ALL digital media should be free for them. That's not really a happy situation for authors or publishers.

I don't see the e-book as a replacement for the dead tree book, but an extra option for reading. It certainly isn't the coming of the next messiah, as some people would have you believe.

As far as Abridged works for kids are concerned, I've always thought it was a mistake to Abridge. I wouldn't say it was unethical. If the kid is too weak in their reading for a particular title, the parent should be encouraging them, and working with them so that they can do it rather than supplying 'watered down' versions.

#210 - what makes you think this doesn't happen with print books? How are you going to check against the "original" when all the print copies were changed at the proofing stage?

I know for a fact that Jane Eyre as originally written had Jane going away to live in India. Its only these mass produced modern alterations that have the happy ending.*

Do you also grow your own coffee just in case the government is monitoring your caffine levels? There is a healthy level of sceptism, but you can take it too far. Given the ebooks are the one medium that allow authors to distribute their works untouched by anyone else (even when an editor would have done them some good!) I think your proposal is actually backwards. It's the printed media that is more likely (even if it's still very unlikely) to be controlled than any electronic version.

*Fortunetly this conspiracy has been unmasked in the eyre affair but you never know what else has been altered,

216: Don't be silly. I don't drink coffee.

And of course alteration does happen in printed works, the version of Enders Game by Orson Scott Card you see in stores now, is not the original text issued, it is now the 'Authors Preferred Version'

You have to buy an older used copy if you want the earlier text. It is however easier to track any changes in the text, than it would be in electronic form.

which reminds me, can you get the original versions of The Stand or The Dark Tower anymore? Not to say that this is a government conspiracy to keep us down, but they are different versions than the first published ones.

219: Theres a scene in the original 'Rollerball' movie where Jonathan E goes to the library only to be told all the books have been scanned in, and if he wants to look at the originals he'd probably have go to some place in Switzerland to look at the originals :-)

>218 cosmicdolphin:
It is however easier to track any changes in the text, than it would be in electronic form.

I would think the opposite would be true, given the relative ease with which you can compare electronic files.

#219 - I know about the Stand - but Dark Tower has two versions?! Since when? It's only a few years old as it is? I presume you mean the last book of the Dark Tower Series? How would I know which version I've got?

I'm not sure any other version would inspire me to re-read it though.

221:

How do you know which is original computer file? Would you have the hardware at home to read a file from a 40 year old magtape? (assuming the tape hasn't died already). And lets face it CDR discs do not last that long. Many early laser discs are already subject to laser rot. Technology is fickle.

I can go get all different physical editions of a book and compare them, I don't need to find a mainframe to do that.

Collectors are obsessive of course, and will often know the differences between each 'state' of a book.

hey reading_fox. I mean the first book - The Gunslinger, sorry for the confusion, I'm not a big fan of the series and I get them mixed up. However, I'm pretty sure that the current edition(s) has been revised by King and is different than the one released in the 80s.

According to Wikipedia -
King revised The Gunslinger in 2003. In his introduction to the new edition, King stated that he felt that the original version was 'dry' and difficult for new readers to access. He also made the storytelling more linear as well as making the plot of the book more consistent with the series' ending. Other changes were made in order to resolve continuity errors introduced by later volumes. The added material was over 9000 words (35 pages) in length.

Bookmarque - thanks! I'll have to look for a copy now and see how easy it is to compare the versions!

F. Paul Wilson is about to revise Nightworld for the third time IIRC, due to changes in his Repairman Jack series.

I read the differences cited on Wikipedia and find the cleaning up of one of Roland's more ruthless shootings to be laughable and similar to what Lucas did with Han Solo. We all know he shot first.

#207
Thanks.

#215
I'm a girl, but yeah, I was referring to that. Thanks for the explanation.

As an author I'm on the fence with ebooks right now. It's great to see your books in a bookstore and the newer technology takes some of that away. However, ebooks do make it very convienent for the mobile traveler. For that reason they are pretty cool.

They're also cool for people with arthritis who love to read doorstops, er, I mean, tomes. And for people with eyesight that used to be better but who now need to read in large fonts, especially at night with eyes that are tired after a day spent squinting at a computer monitor.

229:

Who is your publisher? What's their opinion on e-books?

229:

Ah never mind, I see you are self publish through Authorhouse and have already had one self promotional message nuked by users on the FantasyFans group. Please don't dump anymore blatant self promotion on to us.

I'm sure it is great to see your books in a bookstore, but you probably won't be seeing them in many bricks and mortar stores at all as print on demand titles.

I don't like the fact that they, whoever "they" are, can delete or perhaps even edit ebooks whenever you log on to get new ones without even telling you.

When I buy a paper book, I know it stays the same as when I bought it.

#233, "They" seem to be at Amazon. I haven't heard of such deletions from Barnes and Noble.

234: Amazon proved it was possible and exploitable.

"When the original Amazon Bookstore, an independent women's bookstore, sued them for their name I'd heard they said that the indie was just owned by a bunch of dykes, though I have no proof of that."

but didn't prevent you from repeating it...

No, because I heard it from someone I trusted and respected.

interesting... but still just gossip. I wonder where your trusted and respected source heard it from.

you do realize that your comments are libelous?

Oh, my, you think they'll sue me?

>238 clif_hiker:
You may find
http://www.salon.com/technology/log/1999/10/28/amazon/print.html
of interest. Less sensational than some of the reports a brief Google shows.

@239 whether or not they sue is irrelevant to your choice of action

I've said my piece

carry on

*on further reflection.. I suppose it is totally relevant, since you feel that your anonymity and insignificance pose little threat of having to answer for your charges; what I should I should have said was that it is irrelevant to whether your actions and words are proper or not. Now I'm done for sure.

Thanks, nuatha. Looks like that covers it. Of course, whenever they do something like this, they always say it's just a misunderstanding.

>242 Citizenjoyce:
Usual Amazon term is a "glitch"

Okay, now I'm really considering returning my Kindle and asking for a refund from Amazon for the 3 eBooks I bought from them. I don't happen to be gay, but I am a woman and a feminist and a believer in freedom of choice in all areas of one's personal life, so this kind of behavior is completely unacceptable, and I refuse to suport any company that promulgates such nonsense.

CitizenJoyce, I apologize for not taking you (more) seriously when you first mentioned this to me.